October 28, 2020 • 31 mins
Whether it's in reality or on our screens, full and equitable representation matters -- in government, boardrooms, books, and certainly in film and media. Jon Chu, the film director who brought the wonderful Crazy Rich Asians to our screens, is breaking barriers in entertainment. He joins Pete to discuss the importance of diversity in storytelling, the pressures and expectations of representing an entire culture, and how the pandemic has changed how audiences will view the upcoming In the Heights.
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Episode Transcript
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Speaker 1 (00:05):
Hi, I'm Petebodh Jedge, and this is the deciding decade.
I think a lot about storytelling as an art form
in politics and beyond politics. We communicate so much through
sharing experiences, real lived experiences and fictional experiences. So much
(00:26):
meaning in my life, and I'm sure in yours has
been fed or informed or nourished based on stories that
I've heard and read or watched. And what nuance here
is that white audiences and viewers often don't have to
reflect on how frequently and disproportionately often we see ourselves
in the content. We can sue our journeys and possibilities
(00:49):
are most often reflected back to us by people who
look like us. Not to make this about politics, but
like many, I have found myself emotional when I see
young girls black or South Asian, especially reacting to Senator
Kamala Harris, the first black and Indian American woman on
a presidential ticket, And you can see the possibilities in
(01:09):
young people's eyes when they look at her, whether it's
real or fictional. Full representation matters hugely in government, in
board rooms, in stories and books, certainly in film and media.
But there are a lot of people like my guest
today breaking barriers on this front, making it so entertainment
actually reflects the diversity of our country and in our stories.
(01:31):
I'm excited to welcome to John Cho today, pass breaking
child director who brought the Wonderful, Crazy Rich Asians to
our screens, which was I believe, the highest grossing romantic
comedy and the first film since Joy Luck Club by
a major Hollywood studio with the majority Asian cast in
a modern setting. A visionary director, a great storyteller who
(01:52):
has a fascinating and important story of his own. John
Cho was one of the creators who was meeting the
charge on achieving more equitable and accurate report presentation in
film and media. And so when I believe we're going
to continue to see a lot of very exciting and
important things from over the coming decade. John, welcome, Thanks
for joining us. Thank you, I appreciate it's an honor
to be here with you. I want to start just
(02:13):
by asking you how you feel like your relationship to
film as a discipline might have evolved this year that
has turned our lives upside and we're inside right production
has changed or halted. On the other hand, people are
watching movies probably more, but in different ways. Has it
changed the way you think about what it means to
be involved in film and media. Yeah, I mean, first
(02:34):
of all, on just a life level and put everything
in perspective. You know, we were in the middle of
finishing a movie in the Heights then Manuel Miranda's amazing
Broadway show, and you know, when you're in it as
a director, you throw everything into it. You're ignoring everything
in the world. The world can be on fire, which
it was, and you're and you're not paying attention. All
of a sudden gets taken away from you and uh,
(02:55):
you know, you you realize the important things and and
the priorities has come to the top up. But definitely, uh,
put everything in perspective. It also though, really showed me
throughout all of this time, as people are consuming more
and um needing hope and inspiration, the power of storytelling,
um and even in communication of what's going on. Storytelling
(03:17):
is so important about what our country is, who we are,
what is being American And these are the things that
I you know, you take for granted even when you're
in the business. Um. And then the third part is
the actual business itself that the theaters are are actually
closing down the reality that this tradition that we've had
with our families and friends for so long is actively disappearing.
(03:39):
And so I think all three of those are a
lot to uh take in. But that's sort of on
the top level of what has really come into the
forefront of my mind. Do you have a feel for
what the other side of it looks like. I mean,
one of the things I'm thinking about in politics right
now right is I'm campaigning by zoom and I gotta think,
you know, we can't wait to get back to where
we can safely gather in person. You know, It's it's
(04:00):
the bread and butter campaignings, meeting people, being around other people,
gathering people. But I'm sure there are some elements of
this we're going to keep. You know, we probably don't
need to move quite as much metal and people around
as we're used to doing, and so the future is
going to be different. How do you kind of look
into that future and are you concretely preparing for just
a changed industry because what's happened right now. Yeah, I mean,
(04:21):
first of all, I grew up in the Bay Area
in Palo Alto in the eighties before it was the
Silicon Valley. Silicon Valley, So I know the power of technology. Um,
I was getting My parents have a restaurant there. It's
been there for fifty years, Chinese restaurant still there to
this day, and customers who would come in would give
my parents computers and software because they knew their youngest
(04:44):
kid was into editing videos. So I got digital video
in the mid nineties before any kid my age fifteen
sixton could even should have those things. Um, and so
it empowered me. It gave me a voice of something.
You know, I wasn't that great at sports, I wasn't
that great of a lot of things. But for some
reason editing and video I could observe things and and
express myself. And so to me, the power of technology
(05:08):
has always been a huge part of my life. I've
embraced you know, people say, oh, social media makes you
more alone and all these and yes, there are there
are aspects to that, but I also know that it
also connects us in very real ways. And so when
we're forced to now have these things, so you know,
have zooms and edit remotely. We've had to uh edit
(05:29):
my movie remotely. We were all very separate and it
just took more time, but I love that it pushes
things forward. I just think progress can't be stopped in
that I think how we use that progress is going
to be the big war. I think that's where people
like you who utilize, the people like myself and other
other people who are using it, whether it's to show
(05:51):
their new dance move or to make some sort of statement,
those people are going to be the ones who are
programming who we are in that next So I'm excited
about it. In terms of film, Yeah, we're We're about
to shoot a pilot for ABC in the end of November,
so we're getting ready for that way of life, which
is everybody's in pods like Group A, Group B, Group C,
(06:14):
and UM. We have certain rules of how when we
were location scouting, we did it virtually. We can't be
within six ft of each other, so we go into
locations separately. We get tested right now every week, but
during shooting it will be almost every day. I believe
we haven't got the full protocols yet, uh, and I
think a lot of it would stay for sure. But
I think that we are human beings and we always
(06:35):
find ways to connect. That's what we're driven by so
So I love this image of you growing up your
your parents have a restaurant, uh which becomes a very
well known restaurant chef choose, And I love this image
of you as a kid, teenager getting to know people
through the restaurant. What was that like your parents immigrated
to this country. It's in many ways of classic American dream.
(06:55):
Did you feel like you're kind of being raised by
the whole community of customers or was it more just
kind of your parents workplace or how did that all
fit together in your upbringing? Yeah, I was definitely and
the I'm the youngest of five, so I got all
the benefits of those other years of them being in
the community. Yes, it was my immediate family, obviously, my
brother and sisters. My mom is from a family of six.
(07:18):
They all came over when my mom was nineteen years old,
and she's the oldest. So they grew up in America
not knowing the language for that first part of their life.
But they came here because of it's greatness, of of
of pursuing your dreams, that you can do anything even
if you don't speak the language. And my dad had
that too, he came They met in the Bay Area. Uh.
They started that restaurant with nothing, and my dad always said, like,
(07:41):
I remember one time I saw seeing my dad. You know,
customers who come to a restaurant, you know, they treat
waiters and hosts however they want to treat them. And
I watched them treat my dad poorly one day and
it just broke my heart. This is your dad, This
is like the guy and I came up to him
upset and he's like, don't ever be upset. He's like,
we can't be upset. We actually we're ambassadors to our
(08:03):
whole community, a lot of people here. I have never
met a Chinese family before, and we need to show
them that we are kind and loving. And we did
give that back to them because the next Chinese family
they're gonna see, they're gonna react to how they know us,
and so we need to do that for the next
Chinese family. So that always meant a lot to me
and how I carried myself that has both good sides
(08:23):
and also bad sides to that advice. But I think
that's that's what they had to do. So there's something
really powerful about this idea of your father viewing himself
as a representative of the whole Chinese community. I can't
help but think of how that telescopes out into your future.
Right where you are renowned director John Chow, you're also
famous Asian director John Chew. You know, how do you
(08:47):
think about all of the ways that both within an
Asian community, which by the way, is also incredibly diverse
within itself, and a broader Hollywood community or even a
global film community sees you. Do you do you think
you have that same sense of obligation and responsibility that
propelled your father in that way, or do you feel
like your intention with it? Um? I did it at first.
(09:08):
You know, when you're the only Asian in the room,
the last thing you want to talk about is being
Asian in the room. Um. And so for years I
and also as an Asian American, that identity hasn't really
been defined, at least in the eighties and nineties, like
it was sort of like you're either just come here
or you're not, and you're what they call banana and
(09:29):
so those things to me, I always felt other no
matter what. But you know, our parents teach us to
ignore that stuff. So by ignoring it, you just move
on with your life. There was a certain point where
I realized that I had gotten here because of all
the people who had fought for me, from scholarships to organizations,
(09:50):
to mentors, to even my parents who went out of
their way to make sure I had opportunities that they
did not. The last thing I've really wanted to deal
with as my cultural identity crisis. But when you're older,
getting older, then you realize that these things are a
part of your storytelling, whether you wanted to be or not.
(10:11):
And so I also was doing movie, a lot of movies,
and none of them fully fulfilled who I was and
as an artist, and so I started to search for that,
and it always came back down to my cultural identity
crists and always came back to this thing of feeling alone.
And it wasn't until YouTube, really watching all these Asian
American creators make stuff on YouTube and they talked like me,
(10:34):
they walked like me, they dressed like me, and they
were Asian through and through and proud of it and
like the same food and we had the same memories,
and that that was really empowering for me. I got
to you couldn't unsee that, Um, you couldn't unsee On
Twitter hashtag starring John Show, which was this thing that
came up that they put John Show on posters of movies.
(10:54):
And I was in the movie business already, so when
I saw his face on it, a light just literally
just click to my brain. It was and in an
instant that I was like, Oh, yeah, why, why isn't
that possible? And then as I went through all my
meetings I've been to and I realized, Oh, it wasn't possible,
because they keep saying it's not possible, and I'm at
in a position where I can actually make it possible.
I've made enough money for these studios, I could probably
(11:16):
sneak one in for me, so I could pick anything
to do and I could say that I'm just gonna
make money. I don't know if it really is, but
I can say, and I think I can get it through.
And that's when I found crazy Rich Asians. Uh. And
it was a perfect blend of spectacle, uh, something that
could be theatrical, but also this idea of an Asian
(11:37):
American going to Asia for the first time. Like, to me,
that was my story, even if that wasn't what the
book necessary was all about. To me, that's what this
story could be all about going to Taiwan for the
first time and feeling like, oh, when I go into
a store, they treat me like a cousin, and I
don't feel that here, and I don't know why, even
though I love it here, why do I feel that?
(11:57):
And then they call you guilo, which is, you know,
white devil over there. So then I'm like, I'm not
a part of this either, so who are we here?
And then knowing that there's a lot of us out there,
like this was a great opportunity to I don't to
represent what an Asian American actually is and that's okay,
to kick the tires of culture of tradition and also
embrace it and love it. So you direct your first
(12:35):
major future film in two thousand eight, step up to
the streets, and then justin Bieber never say never. Now
you see me too. There's a lot that kind of
leads you to crazy rich Asians, but crazy rich Asians
as a whole different level. How did you get from
where you started to there in the space of a decade. Um, Well,
I was. I got very lucky. Coming out of film school.
(12:58):
I made a short musical film that got people's attention.
This is before YouTube. So this was on VHS tapes
or DVDR that we would do in our dorm room. Um,
and Steven Spielberg saw it. So when Steven Spielberg sees it,
I'm twenty one, twenty two years old, the whole industry
it's like, who's this kid? So I got attached to
(13:18):
some stuff early. Um, it wasn't until five years later
where I actually made my first movie. But all those
five years were really important for learning how to develop
and work with writers and and work with the studio.
Making those the next six movies over the course of
eight nine years, I didn't know who I was as
an artist, like this is me just like learning how
(13:38):
to make a movie in general. I've never made a
music video or a commercial. I'd literally gone from wedding
videos bar mitzvah's to student films and now making you know,
twenty million dollar thirty million dollar movies for a big studio.
So and then at a certain point I was like, oh,
I've done all these movies and they've all made a
lot of money. I've worked with the Rocket Morgan Freeman,
(13:58):
but who actually am my? Actually, my friend, a very
good friend said to me, John you have the best
life because you've made people money, you have money, you're gray,
you're fine, but nobody knows your name and nobody knows
what you are. So you're sort of like you're living
the Ish life and that's the best you can go
out and do it. And I was like, oh, thank you,
and keep thinking about it, was like I think that's
(14:19):
not good. I was like, I don't want to be ish,
like this is that's so terrible. What is making me ish?
Why am I doing things that are safe? Why? What
is it that I bring that no one else can bring?
What's a movie that I only I can make? Um?
And like I said before that that was a moment
where I was already dealing with my sort of cultural
identity crisis. And I went looking and I actually found
(14:42):
In the Heights and Crazy with Changes. At the same
time signed up for Crazy, which in the Heights first
because the immigrant story, the story of a of a
home and a community spoke volumes to me, even though
I wasn't I've never been to Washington Heights. Lynn's music
and his story was exactly my story, right, and this
idea that it also was very patriotic, like when the
(15:04):
American dream is being attacked, Like I am leaving proof
that the American dream is real. When say, when people
say that's not what America is, I'm like, that's exactly
what made me. I would have never I could never
have this story anywhere else. My parents could never have
that story. So anyway, that's that's sort of what led
me to those things. And I thought they were gonna
be two projects for myself and we're going to make
any money, and then I was going to crawl back
(15:24):
and do another studio thing. But luckily they hit a
nerve of I think a lot of people were feeling
around the world. So you didn't come into this knowing
that this was going to be the big commercial success
that was gonna know, kind of vindicate your your decision.
You just believed in it and thought you'd do it
even if it wasn't gonna do as well kind of monetarily. Yeah.
I actually literally told my agents and managers like so,
(15:47):
I just needed like a few years to not make
us any moneygent to like make for people know who
I am and what I'm about. And I had made
a student short, the only time I ever made a
short about being Asian American was in call Ledge and
it was from my senior movie and it was called
Wilo and Um. We showed it and everybody loved it,
(16:08):
but I felt so um vulnerable watching it. I felt
very uncomfortable watching it, so to do actually a bigger
movie on that same subject. I felt like I was
just in a different place in my life and I
could maybe the maybe the thoughts started back then, but
I sort of processed it through all that time. So
what was the discomfort? Was it not being sure which
(16:29):
audience would respond well? Were you thinking of your family?
Were you thinking of just kind of mainstream audience and
what they'd make of it? Why? Why do you think
it felt difficult to watch? I think there's a lot
of all those things. I think I was taught to
not complain. So the idea that I was exploring, this
idea of how you felt um with if people said
(16:50):
something to you or did something, you felt like it
didn't help anything. Why what's the point of this um
talking about how when you brought your dumplings to school,
people would complain how it smells, so you would dump
I would dump my mom's dumplings in a bush before
getting to school. I found out that everyone has this story. Um,
but at the time, I didn't talk to other people
(17:11):
have that exact same experience. Oh yeah, it's like a
thing like everybody's like, oh yeah, the dumpling dumping story.
Like everyone has that, at least Asian Americans. Like your
mom is gonna feed you, You're they're gonna give you food,
and they're gonna give you Asian food before you go
because that's what they know. And then no one at
school understands why your locker smells and they're gonna look
at you, and now you are the guy that smells
(17:33):
or whose swood the smells, So you just get rid
of that part. So I think all those things like
bringing all of that up, I didn't want to hurt
my family. I didn't want to also like hurt my
own focus on like who I am. But I think
at a certain point you realize you didn't want to
deal with it because you didn't know anyone else was
going through that. And I think, when I think about
(17:55):
my that kid back then, I wish he knew that
there's a lot of you out there and it's okay.
So you have huge success with crazy rich Asians, but
then with success comes another kind of challenge, right, which
is expectations, especially when you're a first when when people
haven't seen this kind of Asian representation a long time.
You know, even though it's it's a huge success and
so many people in such a moving way see themselves represented,
(18:18):
you're also coming in for criticism you didn't tell the
whole story of Singapore, or you know, the casting wasn't
all like the right kinds of Asians. And I've noticed
in the way you responded to that at the time,
some incredibly generous and thoughtful takes on your part, and
I wonder if you just share them here kind of
how what is like seeing that kind of criticism amid
the success, and then how you went about responding to it.
(18:39):
First of all, Asia doesn't want me to represent them.
Asian Americans are a little more okay with it, but
even then they know they're so on it. I think
it's great, Like how nice that we can actually debate
how we want ourselves to be represented because we actually
have opportunities to do that. How great we can debate
casting choices and what kind of stories do we want
for the future, and what we want now and what
(19:00):
is entertaining and what is commercial and that I don't
ever blame anyone. It took me a little bit, but
I really don't blame anyone for coming after me even
when I was making the movie. It's hard to cast
because everyone's judging you on who you're casting and how
you're casting, and you're just like, I'm just trying to
make just I'm staying focused on trying to make the
thing hold on. I blame the lack of representation on that.
(19:22):
To me, I'm like, yeah, you should be angry, you
should be sensitive, and you should speak up for what
you think because we're doing it now, like we're creating
what I think our children will see as what we
think it should be like, and maybe they'll disagree and
break that as well. But like right now, there's no
rules and it can't just be me and needs to
have so many more storytellers, which will also ease the tension.
(19:44):
You can go attack that person, to that person, but
in the end of the day, we're still accomplishing the
same thing, which is, let's show all the shades of
gray that we are. Let's show that we are not China,
we are not the Chinese government, we are not Japan.
We're not any of those things. At least Asian Americans are.
Asian Americans were very unique in this. We have feet
(20:05):
in several different worlds and um and I think that
that's really unique and special and and what I used
to dump out in the bushes of my school, now
you know you have to line up for fifteen dollar
dumplings down the street here at the grove. Like I
was gonna say, it's one of the things that about
the story. Dumplings are amazing. Exact things changed when people
when people actually see it. And I think that's what
(20:27):
has changed me most. It's like, oh my job is
um well, what number one is to entertain, That's what
we are storytellers. But too makes things that people can't unsee.
That is the only role of of going to a
theater and someone paying you money to sit in the
dark room and look at this light flashing at them
and saying tell me what I need to know. And
you have an opportunity for two hours where they're not
(20:49):
looking at anything else except hearing and listening to you.
Where you get to share This is where I come from,
this is what I go through. And guess what I
bet you go through the same thing, even though we
look different, And isn't that beutiful that we can we're
going to get through this together. To me, that's the
great power of art, is it lets us something we
can relate to, helps us imagine something we can't write,
(21:10):
And it's this amazing gift and storytelling. And it's interesting
as you describe your relationship to In the Heights, which,
as you say, in one way, you relate to very
intimately as an immigrant driven experience. On the other hand,
there's about part of New York that you hadn't spent
time in. It's a largely Latin X and Black experience.
So how did you think about kind of grabbing hold
of experiences that are yours and branching out and experiences
(21:33):
are so different, And how does that make In the
Heights of different project than than crazy rich agent. Well,
I was very lucky to have someone like lit Manuel,
Miranda and Kara who wrote the book and and wrote
the script, even Lynn's dad Louise. I mean, they're based there,
the mayors of that area basically, um so I got
a great um people to give me a tour, to
(21:55):
walk me through everything, to be there every day. I
felt like more of a steward in a way, like
I knew how to make this entertaining and fun. I
also understood this the how to find your home and
and redefining your own home. I did not know any
of the specific character real life sort of situations. So
so it was a very open format, like we really
(22:15):
created a forum so that any of the actors that said, hey,
you know what, that sauce wouldn't be on this table,
like they should be able to say that, And he
was like, okay, what sash would be on there? Well,
we have this one and this one. Someone would make
a homemade one and they have in their back pocket. Okay,
let's do that. Let's take the hour, let's not shoot,
let's do that right. Oh you know what, the food
wouldn't be on the table and actually over there, and
they'd be sitting on the floor and on the staircase
(22:37):
just because they never fit, and all the chairs with mismatch. Okay,
we're gonna do that. I think the form in which
these conversations are not just about hey, we gotta shoot,
we got time, we got we were losing money, and
instead of like we've got to do this right, what
have you never seen and what would actually happen here?
That was really really beautiful And the's and shooting in
Washington Heights helped tremendously because you got that feedback every
(23:00):
where you went, whether you wanted to or not. When
they say Heights in your heart, it truly is that
community is so tight. They treat you like family for
the good of the bad. And so I loved being
a part of of just translating that, to be honest,
(23:28):
one of the big plot points, and In the Heights
courses this blackout um that kind of just stops every yet.
But you're a fan of In the Heights, right, you
know this? I mean I think, yes, I guess I'm
just wondering how an audience is going to think about
a massive intervening event that in that case was something
that played out in a matter of hours. But you know,
we're living through this massive intervening event, right that can
(23:49):
drive us apart to bring us together both. It's going
to create a whole new echo, which is what great
art can do. You know, not even knowing what future
audiences will be dealing with, I guess the whole contexts
in the movie has shifted when we're making it, and
now we were supposed to come out this summer, so
it's crazy when we watch it now, it's not of
these issues have not been there. They've always been there,
(24:11):
so the idea that they were forgotten during this blackout.
And by the way, when I came into the project,
I was like, hold up, let's talk about the blackout.
Why do we need to have a blackout. Everyone's like
so dramatic about this blackout, but like, we got blackouts
all the time. It's not that crazy, and like what
people burning things and things like like fireworks. Really and
he's like, John, he walked me through, like what happens then?
(24:34):
And he actually said something really interesting. He's like, it's
actually not just chaos. It's like it's actually freedom. Like
people come out and they go to the place that
they want to go to. They go to their friends,
they go to their family's house and they play dominoes,
they play bingo, whatever it is they want, and then
kids have fireworks and they're going off and people when
(24:54):
their motorcycles are going off. And so we love I
love watching that and actually the music and that the
contrast between the two is really beautiful to watch. And
now the sounds of the fireworks, being in l A
hearing fireworks for so many nights um in this past summer,
and also being in West Hollywood where the protests were
(25:14):
happening and where suddenly, you know, police cars around fire
and stuff, and getting my family actually out of there
was really something I'd never experienced in my life. So
suddenly Blackout had this whole whole new context to me.
Everyone who watched the movie will now watch Blackout and
have a reference point for it, and that's incredible. I Mean,
the other thing about an intervening event is it gets
(25:35):
our attention or it redirects our attention. Yeah, part of
what a filmmaker does is you you get somebody's attention, right,
and then you have for two hours, which oddly is
actually probably one of the longer periods of time that
monitor and spend paying attention to one thing anymore. Do
do you think much about that, that question of kind
of how to hold attention, what to do with it,
what responsibilities we have over our own where we pay
(25:57):
attention and then and then what we do with other
people's attention once got it. Yeah, that's actually really interesting.
I Mean I always think about attention, because that's our job.
If we we test our movies to see where people are,
we filmed them literally seeing if they're checking their phones
or they're laughing at a joke, and we adjust our
movie accordingly or not. Um. I also know that attention
doesn't need a reaction, like I think we always look
(26:19):
for attention like somebody watching and somebody laughing and somebody crying.
But what I've learned is that even if someone's not laughing,
they can think something is funny and think something is
very enjoyable. And again, we talk a lot about power
when I've been doing these movies, like who has the
power in the scene, And what I've also learned from
Michael Kine, who you know, he was doing this scene
(26:39):
where he has to like be intimidating and I kept
being like, like maybe maybe give more, like it's not
maybe just like step up to him. And he's like, John,
He's like, real power doesn't have to go anywhere they
come to you. Real power is quiet, and so I'm
just gonna sit here and stare at him. And it
was the most like a scary thing for him to
(27:01):
say to me, because he literally just did there and
say to me, but too when you see him to
do it, you understand that with anything there's there's confidence.
And I think confidence is actually one of the biggest
attention getters is because confidence doesn't demand anything from you.
It will earn it from you in time if if
you want it to. And but that it's that it's
gone through stuff that you can't even see you on
(27:23):
first glance, and you won't know unless you're there. That's
really timely. Especially you know, I've been thinking a lot
about how kind of the biggest global sense of power,
how America can be more credible, and you know, we've
got a president who clearly his understanding of power, his
concept of strength is kind of the loud mouth guide
he under the bar right, who is usually not the
(27:43):
most powerful things that you're seeing, which is when we
learn in grade school. So it's a very confusive thing.
I think that like he is a storyteller, he is
one of the best storytellers because he won't let it
go and he'll drive it and he come. It's to
his stories. When I think about what is American? What
(28:04):
do we want America to be? In a way, it's
like what is our story we have? I thought I
knew our story. I was told my story over and
over and over again, and suddenly I'm being told that
that's not the story. And I just think, usually it's
the president that when they become president, is the only
one actually capable of saying, hey, we're all on the
same page. All these differences are there, we all have them.
(28:27):
It'll go over away over time, but this is like
a process, but we're we're all together, and you know
when the president doesn't doesn't actually uh walk that line.
I thought I always thought the president was not that
powerful of a figure. Well, I think what I've learned is, oh,
that figure is extremely powerful, but not in the ways
that we think, not in the policy ways, policies come
(28:48):
and go, but in this idea of what is the
story of America right now and what is the story
that we're telling our children right now? That is like
immensely powerful that I didn't know. You know, as you
think about the story that you want your kids to
grow up into, what do you want the story to
be that they would be able to tell looking back
on the years we're about to go into. That's a
(29:10):
hard question because I feel like that's what I'm going
through right now when I see my daughter and my
son who's one and three and trying to it's sort
of the greatest pitch I've ever had to do was
pitch them on what the world is. And I don't
know what the world is, but I think the main
thing that I am trying to instill in them is
(29:32):
the world doesn't exist in a story. There's no beginning, middle,
and end. It just keeps going. And it's maybe the
biggest con of stories and movies is that there's some
sort of happy ending at the end. No, it's like
it is a constant wave and we're always fixing things,
and it's messy and it's complicated, and you think you
have one answer, and then you experience some things and
you realize maybe there's another answer. To me, I want
(29:54):
them to know that it's always going to be messy,
but to be empathetic to where everyone comes from, to
be kind, and also to know that they have power
themselves to help people around them. To me, that's that's
the only thing we really can do. If I think
(30:18):
about the decade ahead, which as you know, is the
theme of this podcast, I can't help but imagine what
could happen in film in John's case, and politics in mind,
and whatever your field is. If we all thought more
about how to use each of our passions and talents
and our curiosity in the service of something we care
about in the world, and along the way, I think
we will continue to find better ways to elevate and
(30:40):
amplify the journeys of those who are overlooked, underestimated, and undervalued,
as John has. Like John said, the world doesn't exist
in a story. It's not that tidy. There's no simple beginning, middle,
and end. And yet there are turning points in the
real world, just like in a book or a film,
and we know we're living in one of those moments.
It means that everything we choose to do right now
(31:01):
shapes the entire rest of the store, our store, as
individuals and as a country. For more podcasts from I
Heart Radio, visit the I heart Radio app, Apple Podcasts,
or wherever you listen to your favorite shows.
Hi, I'm Petebodh Jedge, and this is the deciding decade.
I think a lot about storytelling as an art form
in politics and beyond politics. We communicate so much through
sharing experiences, real lived experiences and fictional experiences. So much
(00:26):
meaning in my life, and I'm sure in yours has
been fed or informed or nourished based on stories that
I've heard and read or watched. And what nuance here
is that white audiences and viewers often don't have to
reflect on how frequently and disproportionately often we see ourselves
in the content. We can sue our journeys and possibilities
(00:49):
are most often reflected back to us by people who
look like us. Not to make this about politics, but
like many, I have found myself emotional when I see
young girls black or South Asian, especially reacting to Senator
Kamala Harris, the first black and Indian American woman on
a presidential ticket, And you can see the possibilities in
(01:09):
young people's eyes when they look at her, whether it's
real or fictional. Full representation matters hugely in government, in
board rooms, in stories and books, certainly in film and media.
But there are a lot of people like my guest
today breaking barriers on this front, making it so entertainment
actually reflects the diversity of our country and in our stories.
(01:31):
I'm excited to welcome to John Cho today, pass breaking
child director who brought the Wonderful, Crazy Rich Asians to
our screens, which was I believe, the highest grossing romantic
comedy and the first film since Joy Luck Club by
a major Hollywood studio with the majority Asian cast in
a modern setting. A visionary director, a great storyteller who
(01:52):
has a fascinating and important story of his own. John
Cho was one of the creators who was meeting the
charge on achieving more equitable and accurate report presentation in
film and media. And so when I believe we're going
to continue to see a lot of very exciting and
important things from over the coming decade. John, welcome, Thanks
for joining us. Thank you, I appreciate it's an honor
to be here with you. I want to start just
(02:13):
by asking you how you feel like your relationship to
film as a discipline might have evolved this year that
has turned our lives upside and we're inside right production
has changed or halted. On the other hand, people are
watching movies probably more, but in different ways. Has it
changed the way you think about what it means to
be involved in film and media. Yeah, I mean, first
(02:34):
of all, on just a life level and put everything
in perspective. You know, we were in the middle of
finishing a movie in the Heights then Manuel Miranda's amazing
Broadway show, and you know, when you're in it as
a director, you throw everything into it. You're ignoring everything
in the world. The world can be on fire, which
it was, and you're and you're not paying attention. All
of a sudden gets taken away from you and uh,
(02:55):
you know, you you realize the important things and and
the priorities has come to the top up. But definitely, uh,
put everything in perspective. It also though, really showed me
throughout all of this time, as people are consuming more
and um needing hope and inspiration, the power of storytelling,
um and even in communication of what's going on. Storytelling
(03:17):
is so important about what our country is, who we are,
what is being American And these are the things that
I you know, you take for granted even when you're
in the business. Um. And then the third part is
the actual business itself that the theaters are are actually
closing down the reality that this tradition that we've had
with our families and friends for so long is actively disappearing.
(03:39):
And so I think all three of those are a
lot to uh take in. But that's sort of on
the top level of what has really come into the
forefront of my mind. Do you have a feel for
what the other side of it looks like. I mean,
one of the things I'm thinking about in politics right
now right is I'm campaigning by zoom and I gotta think,
you know, we can't wait to get back to where
we can safely gather in person. You know, It's it's
(04:00):
the bread and butter campaignings, meeting people, being around other people,
gathering people. But I'm sure there are some elements of
this we're going to keep. You know, we probably don't
need to move quite as much metal and people around
as we're used to doing, and so the future is
going to be different. How do you kind of look
into that future and are you concretely preparing for just
a changed industry because what's happened right now. Yeah, I mean,
(04:21):
first of all, I grew up in the Bay Area
in Palo Alto in the eighties before it was the
Silicon Valley. Silicon Valley, So I know the power of technology. Um,
I was getting My parents have a restaurant there. It's
been there for fifty years, Chinese restaurant still there to
this day, and customers who would come in would give
my parents computers and software because they knew their youngest
(04:44):
kid was into editing videos. So I got digital video
in the mid nineties before any kid my age fifteen
sixton could even should have those things. Um, and so
it empowered me. It gave me a voice of something.
You know, I wasn't that great at sports, I wasn't
that great of a lot of things. But for some
reason editing and video I could observe things and and
express myself. And so to me, the power of technology
(05:08):
has always been a huge part of my life. I've
embraced you know, people say, oh, social media makes you
more alone and all these and yes, there are there
are aspects to that, but I also know that it
also connects us in very real ways. And so when
we're forced to now have these things, so you know,
have zooms and edit remotely. We've had to uh edit
(05:29):
my movie remotely. We were all very separate and it
just took more time, but I love that it pushes
things forward. I just think progress can't be stopped in
that I think how we use that progress is going
to be the big war. I think that's where people
like you who utilize, the people like myself and other
other people who are using it, whether it's to show
(05:51):
their new dance move or to make some sort of statement,
those people are going to be the ones who are
programming who we are in that next So I'm excited
about it. In terms of film, Yeah, we're We're about
to shoot a pilot for ABC in the end of November,
so we're getting ready for that way of life, which
is everybody's in pods like Group A, Group B, Group C,
(06:14):
and UM. We have certain rules of how when we
were location scouting, we did it virtually. We can't be
within six ft of each other, so we go into
locations separately. We get tested right now every week, but
during shooting it will be almost every day. I believe
we haven't got the full protocols yet, uh, and I
think a lot of it would stay for sure. But
I think that we are human beings and we always
(06:35):
find ways to connect. That's what we're driven by so
So I love this image of you growing up your
your parents have a restaurant, uh which becomes a very
well known restaurant chef choose, And I love this image
of you as a kid, teenager getting to know people
through the restaurant. What was that like your parents immigrated
to this country. It's in many ways of classic American dream.
(06:55):
Did you feel like you're kind of being raised by
the whole community of customers or was it more just
kind of your parents workplace or how did that all
fit together in your upbringing? Yeah, I was definitely and
the I'm the youngest of five, so I got all
the benefits of those other years of them being in
the community. Yes, it was my immediate family, obviously, my
brother and sisters. My mom is from a family of six.
(07:18):
They all came over when my mom was nineteen years old,
and she's the oldest. So they grew up in America
not knowing the language for that first part of their life.
But they came here because of it's greatness, of of
of pursuing your dreams, that you can do anything even
if you don't speak the language. And my dad had
that too, he came They met in the Bay Area. Uh.
They started that restaurant with nothing, and my dad always said, like,
(07:41):
I remember one time I saw seeing my dad. You know,
customers who come to a restaurant, you know, they treat
waiters and hosts however they want to treat them. And
I watched them treat my dad poorly one day and
it just broke my heart. This is your dad, This
is like the guy and I came up to him
upset and he's like, don't ever be upset. He's like,
we can't be upset. We actually we're ambassadors to our
(08:03):
whole community, a lot of people here. I have never
met a Chinese family before, and we need to show
them that we are kind and loving. And we did
give that back to them because the next Chinese family
they're gonna see, they're gonna react to how they know us,
and so we need to do that for the next
Chinese family. So that always meant a lot to me
and how I carried myself that has both good sides
(08:23):
and also bad sides to that advice. But I think
that's that's what they had to do. So there's something
really powerful about this idea of your father viewing himself
as a representative of the whole Chinese community. I can't
help but think of how that telescopes out into your future.
Right where you are renowned director John Chow, you're also
famous Asian director John Chew. You know, how do you
(08:47):
think about all of the ways that both within an
Asian community, which by the way, is also incredibly diverse
within itself, and a broader Hollywood community or even a
global film community sees you. Do you do you think
you have that same sense of obligation and responsibility that
propelled your father in that way, or do you feel
like your intention with it? Um? I did it at first.
(09:08):
You know, when you're the only Asian in the room,
the last thing you want to talk about is being
Asian in the room. Um. And so for years I
and also as an Asian American, that identity hasn't really
been defined, at least in the eighties and nineties, like
it was sort of like you're either just come here
or you're not, and you're what they call banana and
(09:29):
so those things to me, I always felt other no
matter what. But you know, our parents teach us to
ignore that stuff. So by ignoring it, you just move
on with your life. There was a certain point where
I realized that I had gotten here because of all
the people who had fought for me, from scholarships to organizations,
(09:50):
to mentors, to even my parents who went out of
their way to make sure I had opportunities that they
did not. The last thing I've really wanted to deal
with as my cultural identity crisis. But when you're older,
getting older, then you realize that these things are a
part of your storytelling, whether you wanted to be or not.
(10:11):
And so I also was doing movie, a lot of movies,
and none of them fully fulfilled who I was and
as an artist, and so I started to search for that,
and it always came back down to my cultural identity
crists and always came back to this thing of feeling alone.
And it wasn't until YouTube, really watching all these Asian
American creators make stuff on YouTube and they talked like me,
(10:34):
they walked like me, they dressed like me, and they
were Asian through and through and proud of it and
like the same food and we had the same memories,
and that that was really empowering for me. I got
to you couldn't unsee that, Um, you couldn't unsee On
Twitter hashtag starring John Show, which was this thing that
came up that they put John Show on posters of movies.
(10:54):
And I was in the movie business already, so when
I saw his face on it, a light just literally
just click to my brain. It was and in an
instant that I was like, Oh, yeah, why, why isn't
that possible? And then as I went through all my
meetings I've been to and I realized, Oh, it wasn't possible,
because they keep saying it's not possible, and I'm at
in a position where I can actually make it possible.
I've made enough money for these studios, I could probably
(11:16):
sneak one in for me, so I could pick anything
to do and I could say that I'm just gonna
make money. I don't know if it really is, but
I can say, and I think I can get it through.
And that's when I found crazy Rich Asians. Uh. And
it was a perfect blend of spectacle, uh, something that
could be theatrical, but also this idea of an Asian
(11:37):
American going to Asia for the first time. Like, to me,
that was my story, even if that wasn't what the
book necessary was all about. To me, that's what this
story could be all about going to Taiwan for the
first time and feeling like, oh, when I go into
a store, they treat me like a cousin, and I
don't feel that here, and I don't know why, even
though I love it here, why do I feel that?
(11:57):
And then they call you guilo, which is, you know,
white devil over there. So then I'm like, I'm not
a part of this either, so who are we here?
And then knowing that there's a lot of us out there,
like this was a great opportunity to I don't to
represent what an Asian American actually is and that's okay,
to kick the tires of culture of tradition and also
embrace it and love it. So you direct your first
(12:35):
major future film in two thousand eight, step up to
the streets, and then justin Bieber never say never. Now
you see me too. There's a lot that kind of
leads you to crazy rich Asians, but crazy rich Asians
as a whole different level. How did you get from
where you started to there in the space of a decade. Um, Well,
I was. I got very lucky. Coming out of film school.
(12:58):
I made a short musical film that got people's attention.
This is before YouTube. So this was on VHS tapes
or DVDR that we would do in our dorm room. Um,
and Steven Spielberg saw it. So when Steven Spielberg sees it,
I'm twenty one, twenty two years old, the whole industry
it's like, who's this kid? So I got attached to
(13:18):
some stuff early. Um, it wasn't until five years later
where I actually made my first movie. But all those
five years were really important for learning how to develop
and work with writers and and work with the studio.
Making those the next six movies over the course of
eight nine years, I didn't know who I was as
an artist, like this is me just like learning how
(13:38):
to make a movie in general. I've never made a
music video or a commercial. I'd literally gone from wedding
videos bar mitzvah's to student films and now making you know,
twenty million dollar thirty million dollar movies for a big studio.
So and then at a certain point I was like, oh,
I've done all these movies and they've all made a
lot of money. I've worked with the Rocket Morgan Freeman,
(13:58):
but who actually am my? Actually, my friend, a very
good friend said to me, John you have the best
life because you've made people money, you have money, you're gray,
you're fine, but nobody knows your name and nobody knows
what you are. So you're sort of like you're living
the Ish life and that's the best you can go
out and do it. And I was like, oh, thank you,
and keep thinking about it, was like I think that's
(14:19):
not good. I was like, I don't want to be ish,
like this is that's so terrible. What is making me ish?
Why am I doing things that are safe? Why? What
is it that I bring that no one else can bring?
What's a movie that I only I can make? Um?
And like I said before that that was a moment
where I was already dealing with my sort of cultural
identity crisis. And I went looking and I actually found
(14:42):
In the Heights and Crazy with Changes. At the same
time signed up for Crazy, which in the Heights first
because the immigrant story, the story of a of a
home and a community spoke volumes to me, even though
I wasn't I've never been to Washington Heights. Lynn's music
and his story was exactly my story, right, and this
idea that it also was very patriotic, like when the
(15:04):
American dream is being attacked, Like I am leaving proof
that the American dream is real. When say, when people
say that's not what America is, I'm like, that's exactly
what made me. I would have never I could never
have this story anywhere else. My parents could never have
that story. So anyway, that's that's sort of what led
me to those things. And I thought they were gonna
be two projects for myself and we're going to make
any money, and then I was going to crawl back
(15:24):
and do another studio thing. But luckily they hit a
nerve of I think a lot of people were feeling
around the world. So you didn't come into this knowing
that this was going to be the big commercial success
that was gonna know, kind of vindicate your your decision.
You just believed in it and thought you'd do it
even if it wasn't gonna do as well kind of monetarily. Yeah.
I actually literally told my agents and managers like so,
(15:47):
I just needed like a few years to not make
us any moneygent to like make for people know who
I am and what I'm about. And I had made
a student short, the only time I ever made a
short about being Asian American was in call Ledge and
it was from my senior movie and it was called
Wilo and Um. We showed it and everybody loved it,
(16:08):
but I felt so um vulnerable watching it. I felt
very uncomfortable watching it, so to do actually a bigger
movie on that same subject. I felt like I was
just in a different place in my life and I
could maybe the maybe the thoughts started back then, but
I sort of processed it through all that time. So
what was the discomfort? Was it not being sure which
(16:29):
audience would respond well? Were you thinking of your family?
Were you thinking of just kind of mainstream audience and
what they'd make of it? Why? Why do you think
it felt difficult to watch? I think there's a lot
of all those things. I think I was taught to
not complain. So the idea that I was exploring, this
idea of how you felt um with if people said
(16:50):
something to you or did something, you felt like it
didn't help anything. Why what's the point of this um
talking about how when you brought your dumplings to school,
people would complain how it smells, so you would dump
I would dump my mom's dumplings in a bush before
getting to school. I found out that everyone has this story. Um,
but at the time, I didn't talk to other people
(17:11):
have that exact same experience. Oh yeah, it's like a
thing like everybody's like, oh yeah, the dumpling dumping story.
Like everyone has that, at least Asian Americans. Like your
mom is gonna feed you, You're they're gonna give you food,
and they're gonna give you Asian food before you go
because that's what they know. And then no one at
school understands why your locker smells and they're gonna look
at you, and now you are the guy that smells
(17:33):
or whose swood the smells, So you just get rid
of that part. So I think all those things like
bringing all of that up, I didn't want to hurt
my family. I didn't want to also like hurt my
own focus on like who I am. But I think
at a certain point you realize you didn't want to
deal with it because you didn't know anyone else was
going through that. And I think, when I think about
(17:55):
my that kid back then, I wish he knew that
there's a lot of you out there and it's okay.
So you have huge success with crazy rich Asians, but
then with success comes another kind of challenge, right, which
is expectations, especially when you're a first when when people
haven't seen this kind of Asian representation a long time.
You know, even though it's it's a huge success and
so many people in such a moving way see themselves represented,
(18:18):
you're also coming in for criticism you didn't tell the
whole story of Singapore, or you know, the casting wasn't
all like the right kinds of Asians. And I've noticed
in the way you responded to that at the time,
some incredibly generous and thoughtful takes on your part, and
I wonder if you just share them here kind of
how what is like seeing that kind of criticism amid
the success, and then how you went about responding to it.
(18:39):
First of all, Asia doesn't want me to represent them.
Asian Americans are a little more okay with it, but
even then they know they're so on it. I think
it's great, Like how nice that we can actually debate
how we want ourselves to be represented because we actually
have opportunities to do that. How great we can debate
casting choices and what kind of stories do we want
for the future, and what we want now and what
(19:00):
is entertaining and what is commercial and that I don't
ever blame anyone. It took me a little bit, but
I really don't blame anyone for coming after me even
when I was making the movie. It's hard to cast
because everyone's judging you on who you're casting and how
you're casting, and you're just like, I'm just trying to
make just I'm staying focused on trying to make the
thing hold on. I blame the lack of representation on that.
(19:22):
To me, I'm like, yeah, you should be angry, you
should be sensitive, and you should speak up for what
you think because we're doing it now, like we're creating
what I think our children will see as what we
think it should be like, and maybe they'll disagree and
break that as well. But like right now, there's no
rules and it can't just be me and needs to
have so many more storytellers, which will also ease the tension.
(19:44):
You can go attack that person, to that person, but
in the end of the day, we're still accomplishing the
same thing, which is, let's show all the shades of
gray that we are. Let's show that we are not China,
we are not the Chinese government, we are not Japan.
We're not any of those things. At least Asian Americans are.
Asian Americans were very unique in this. We have feet
(20:05):
in several different worlds and um and I think that
that's really unique and special and and what I used
to dump out in the bushes of my school, now
you know you have to line up for fifteen dollar
dumplings down the street here at the grove. Like I
was gonna say, it's one of the things that about
the story. Dumplings are amazing. Exact things changed when people
when people actually see it. And I think that's what
(20:27):
has changed me most. It's like, oh my job is
um well, what number one is to entertain, That's what
we are storytellers. But too makes things that people can't unsee.
That is the only role of of going to a
theater and someone paying you money to sit in the
dark room and look at this light flashing at them
and saying tell me what I need to know. And
you have an opportunity for two hours where they're not
(20:49):
looking at anything else except hearing and listening to you.
Where you get to share This is where I come from,
this is what I go through. And guess what I
bet you go through the same thing, even though we
look different, And isn't that beutiful that we can we're
going to get through this together. To me, that's the
great power of art, is it lets us something we
can relate to, helps us imagine something we can't write,
(21:10):
And it's this amazing gift and storytelling. And it's interesting
as you describe your relationship to In the Heights, which,
as you say, in one way, you relate to very
intimately as an immigrant driven experience. On the other hand,
there's about part of New York that you hadn't spent
time in. It's a largely Latin X and Black experience.
So how did you think about kind of grabbing hold
of experiences that are yours and branching out and experiences
(21:33):
are so different, And how does that make In the
Heights of different project than than crazy rich agent. Well,
I was very lucky to have someone like lit Manuel,
Miranda and Kara who wrote the book and and wrote
the script, even Lynn's dad Louise. I mean, they're based there,
the mayors of that area basically, um so I got
a great um people to give me a tour, to
(21:55):
walk me through everything, to be there every day. I
felt like more of a steward in a way, like
I knew how to make this entertaining and fun. I
also understood this the how to find your home and
and redefining your own home. I did not know any
of the specific character real life sort of situations. So
so it was a very open format, like we really
(22:15):
created a forum so that any of the actors that said, hey,
you know what, that sauce wouldn't be on this table,
like they should be able to say that, And he
was like, okay, what sash would be on there? Well,
we have this one and this one. Someone would make
a homemade one and they have in their back pocket. Okay,
let's do that. Let's take the hour, let's not shoot,
let's do that right. Oh you know what, the food
wouldn't be on the table and actually over there, and
they'd be sitting on the floor and on the staircase
(22:37):
just because they never fit, and all the chairs with mismatch. Okay,
we're gonna do that. I think the form in which
these conversations are not just about hey, we gotta shoot,
we got time, we got we were losing money, and
instead of like we've got to do this right, what
have you never seen and what would actually happen here?
That was really really beautiful And the's and shooting in
Washington Heights helped tremendously because you got that feedback every
(23:00):
where you went, whether you wanted to or not. When
they say Heights in your heart, it truly is that
community is so tight. They treat you like family for
the good of the bad. And so I loved being
a part of of just translating that, to be honest,
(23:28):
one of the big plot points, and In the Heights
courses this blackout um that kind of just stops every yet.
But you're a fan of In the Heights, right, you
know this? I mean I think, yes, I guess I'm
just wondering how an audience is going to think about
a massive intervening event that in that case was something
that played out in a matter of hours. But you know,
we're living through this massive intervening event, right that can
(23:49):
drive us apart to bring us together both. It's going
to create a whole new echo, which is what great
art can do. You know, not even knowing what future
audiences will be dealing with, I guess the whole contexts
in the movie has shifted when we're making it, and
now we were supposed to come out this summer, so
it's crazy when we watch it now, it's not of
these issues have not been there. They've always been there,
(24:11):
so the idea that they were forgotten during this blackout.
And by the way, when I came into the project,
I was like, hold up, let's talk about the blackout.
Why do we need to have a blackout. Everyone's like
so dramatic about this blackout, but like, we got blackouts
all the time. It's not that crazy, and like what
people burning things and things like like fireworks. Really and
he's like, John, he walked me through, like what happens then?
(24:34):
And he actually said something really interesting. He's like, it's
actually not just chaos. It's like it's actually freedom. Like
people come out and they go to the place that
they want to go to. They go to their friends,
they go to their family's house and they play dominoes,
they play bingo, whatever it is they want, and then
kids have fireworks and they're going off and people when
(24:54):
their motorcycles are going off. And so we love I
love watching that and actually the music and that the
contrast between the two is really beautiful to watch. And
now the sounds of the fireworks, being in l A
hearing fireworks for so many nights um in this past summer,
and also being in West Hollywood where the protests were
(25:14):
happening and where suddenly, you know, police cars around fire
and stuff, and getting my family actually out of there
was really something I'd never experienced in my life. So
suddenly Blackout had this whole whole new context to me.
Everyone who watched the movie will now watch Blackout and
have a reference point for it, and that's incredible. I Mean,
the other thing about an intervening event is it gets
(25:35):
our attention or it redirects our attention. Yeah, part of
what a filmmaker does is you you get somebody's attention, right,
and then you have for two hours, which oddly is
actually probably one of the longer periods of time that
monitor and spend paying attention to one thing anymore. Do
do you think much about that, that question of kind
of how to hold attention, what to do with it,
what responsibilities we have over our own where we pay
(25:57):
attention and then and then what we do with other
people's attention once got it. Yeah, that's actually really interesting.
I Mean I always think about attention, because that's our job.
If we we test our movies to see where people are,
we filmed them literally seeing if they're checking their phones
or they're laughing at a joke, and we adjust our
movie accordingly or not. Um. I also know that attention
doesn't need a reaction, like I think we always look
(26:19):
for attention like somebody watching and somebody laughing and somebody crying.
But what I've learned is that even if someone's not laughing,
they can think something is funny and think something is
very enjoyable. And again, we talk a lot about power
when I've been doing these movies, like who has the
power in the scene, And what I've also learned from
Michael Kine, who you know, he was doing this scene
(26:39):
where he has to like be intimidating and I kept
being like, like maybe maybe give more, like it's not
maybe just like step up to him. And he's like, John,
He's like, real power doesn't have to go anywhere they
come to you. Real power is quiet, and so I'm
just gonna sit here and stare at him. And it
was the most like a scary thing for him to
(27:01):
say to me, because he literally just did there and
say to me, but too when you see him to
do it, you understand that with anything there's there's confidence.
And I think confidence is actually one of the biggest
attention getters is because confidence doesn't demand anything from you.
It will earn it from you in time if if
you want it to. And but that it's that it's
gone through stuff that you can't even see you on
(27:23):
first glance, and you won't know unless you're there. That's
really timely. Especially you know, I've been thinking a lot
about how kind of the biggest global sense of power,
how America can be more credible, and you know, we've
got a president who clearly his understanding of power, his
concept of strength is kind of the loud mouth guide
he under the bar right, who is usually not the
(27:43):
most powerful things that you're seeing, which is when we
learn in grade school. So it's a very confusive thing.
I think that like he is a storyteller, he is
one of the best storytellers because he won't let it
go and he'll drive it and he come. It's to
his stories. When I think about what is American? What
(28:04):
do we want America to be? In a way, it's
like what is our story we have? I thought I
knew our story. I was told my story over and
over and over again, and suddenly I'm being told that
that's not the story. And I just think, usually it's
the president that when they become president, is the only
one actually capable of saying, hey, we're all on the
same page. All these differences are there, we all have them.
(28:27):
It'll go over away over time, but this is like
a process, but we're we're all together, and you know
when the president doesn't doesn't actually uh walk that line.
I thought I always thought the president was not that
powerful of a figure. Well, I think what I've learned is, oh,
that figure is extremely powerful, but not in the ways
that we think, not in the policy ways, policies come
(28:48):
and go, but in this idea of what is the
story of America right now and what is the story
that we're telling our children right now? That is like
immensely powerful that I didn't know. You know, as you
think about the story that you want your kids to
grow up into, what do you want the story to
be that they would be able to tell looking back
on the years we're about to go into. That's a
(29:10):
hard question because I feel like that's what I'm going
through right now when I see my daughter and my
son who's one and three and trying to it's sort
of the greatest pitch I've ever had to do was
pitch them on what the world is. And I don't
know what the world is, but I think the main
thing that I am trying to instill in them is
(29:32):
the world doesn't exist in a story. There's no beginning, middle,
and end. It just keeps going. And it's maybe the
biggest con of stories and movies is that there's some
sort of happy ending at the end. No, it's like
it is a constant wave and we're always fixing things,
and it's messy and it's complicated, and you think you
have one answer, and then you experience some things and
you realize maybe there's another answer. To me, I want
(29:54):
them to know that it's always going to be messy,
but to be empathetic to where everyone comes from, to
be kind, and also to know that they have power
themselves to help people around them. To me, that's that's
the only thing we really can do. If I think
(30:18):
about the decade ahead, which as you know, is the
theme of this podcast, I can't help but imagine what
could happen in film in John's case, and politics in mind,
and whatever your field is. If we all thought more
about how to use each of our passions and talents
and our curiosity in the service of something we care
about in the world, and along the way, I think
we will continue to find better ways to elevate and
(30:40):
amplify the journeys of those who are overlooked, underestimated, and undervalued,
as John has. Like John said, the world doesn't exist
in a story. It's not that tidy. There's no simple beginning, middle,
and end. And yet there are turning points in the
real world, just like in a book or a film,
and we know we're living in one of those moments.
It means that everything we choose to do right now
(31:01):
shapes the entire rest of the store, our store, as
individuals and as a country. For more podcasts from I
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