December 16, 2020 • 34 mins
The Deciding Decade has featured a number of conversations with so many remarkable current and future leaders who have given us great hope for the decade and century ahead. For the final episode, Pete is joined by one of the most accomplished public servants this country has ever produced. Hillary Clinton talks to Pete about what it was like to cast her vote for Joe Biden and Kamala Harris as a member of the electoral college, how the role of state and local government has evolved, and why there's been talk on both sides of the aisle across the political spectrum to bring back earmarks. Plus, Hillary's advice for Pete's next chapter with the Biden administration.
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Episode Transcript
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Speaker 1 (00:05):
Hi, I'm Pete, good judge, and this is the Deciding Decade.
On this podcast, we have talked with so many remarkable
current and future leaders, some as young as thirteen years old,
who have given us great hope for the decade and
century ahead of us in today. To close out this series,
(00:27):
I wanted to speak with one of the most recognizable
leaders of our time, someone who has dedicated her life
to service, someone who's built wisdom through decades of experience,
and someone who channels all of that into the important
work of encouraging people to organize, stay engaged, and run
for office. Someone who is helping to shape the decades ahead.
It is a real honor to have Secretary Hillary Clinton
(00:49):
as our final guest in the Deciding Decade podcasts. A
trailblazing attorney, first Lady of Arkansas, first Lady of the
United States, Senator, Secretary of State, presidential candidate, author, activist, wife, mother,
and grandmother, Secretary Clinton is one of the most accomplished
public servants that this country has ever produced. And though
you know this already, I can't introduce her without pausing
(01:10):
on the meaning of the fact that in two thousand
and sixteen she became the first woman ever to be
nominated by a major party for the American presidency. She
has inspired generations and women in the United States and
around the world to believe in themselves and to reach
their highest potential. To be gutsy, as she and her
daughter Chelsea often say, I have been personally inspired by
her barrier breaking work, her command of the issues that
(01:32):
face our country, and her unstoppable dedication to service. Secretary Clinton,
thank you so much for joining Oh it is such
a pleasure to talk to you, and I'm honored to
be I guess your last guest for this season of
your new podcast. I couldn't think of a better way
to wrap up the year. And you know, we call
it the Deciding Decade because it's really about how the
(01:54):
decisions that are being made now are going to shape
the trajectory of the country. And that's one of the
things I really want to explore with you. But I
want to begin with news from this week. This week
began with you, as a member of the Electoral College,
casting your vote for Joe Biden and Kamala Harris. I
think you and I agree that the US would be
better off without the Electoral College as a matter of
(02:15):
policy as a personal matter, if it weren't for the
Electoral College, you'd be the president of the United States
right now. So I wonder what was it like to
go through this process, to be an elector and to
have that chance to cast that vote. It was incredibly
moving to me, Pete, because I feel like we are
at such a pivot point in our country, and you're
(02:38):
so right about the name of your podcast. The decisions
that we now have an opportunity to try to make
thanks to the outcome of the election, are going to
be so consequential, because frankly, there's a lot of damage
to repair as well as trying to get you back
into big bold ideas. And so when I was asked
(03:00):
if I would be a member of the Electoral College,
I paused for a minute because I've been on records
since two thousand advocating for its abolition. I think it
has long out lasted any usefulness that it had. But
at the same time, I thought it would be a
good signal that we were all coming together to participate
(03:23):
in this historic constitutional ritual. I could not have guessed
how the attacks against the integrity of the election would
play out, and how desperate Trump and his enablers were
to try to overturn the results. Um So dropping that
ballot in for Joe Biden and a ballot in for
(03:45):
Kamala Harris made it feel like, Okay, we're really ready
to move on, uh, from what we've had to live
with the last four years. You know. I remember studying
in the UK, which is considered at a constitutional country
constitutional monarchy, but UH never wrote their constitution down and
I thought that was the strangest thing to try to
(04:07):
get my head around. Only to realize, I think in
the last year or so, how much of our system
depends on the unwritten rules, like the idea that when
you're defeated, you concede. It doesn't say anybody has to
do that. It doesn't say officially what what happens or
doesn't happen. And yet we've learned how important it is
for our democratic legitimacy, how somebody who who's defeated in
(04:31):
an election act and uh, I wonder what you think
it will take to shore up some of the dimensions
of our democracy that are really only protected by everybody
believing in them and everybody abiding by them. And if
we don't, they can all fall apart. Well, you're absolutely right,
and he wrote a whole book about the glue that
(04:51):
holds a system like ours together, namely trust, and there's
very little of it right now. It's been badly damn edged.
And I think what President elect Biden is trying to
do is to lay the groundwork for unifying the country.
It's going to be incredibly hard because of all of
the misinformation and poison that has been injected into the
(05:16):
minds of so many Americans, but he is absolutely right
to try. I think you have to bolster that. In
addition to setting an example and demonstrating with the values
and the standards the norms as we like to say
should be, we might have to take a hard look
at trying to pass legislation that put up some more guardrails.
(05:36):
And I'm sorry about that. I wish I weren't even
contemplating it. But you know, there are certain things, uh
that maybe we haven't passed on as we should or
taught in school or civics. UH, that should be just assumed.
You mentioned one like you have every right to make
(05:57):
a fair argument against an outcome of an election if
there's evidence, uh and facts to back it. Up. But
when there isn't, it's time to retreat and concede. From
what I know talking to people on the Biden transition,
they're very focused on an agenda to protect our democracy,
to protect our elections, and I hope that they're going
(06:20):
to be able to enact a lot of that because
we're gonna have to change some of the expectations and
the behaviors so that you know, people get used to
once more understanding what the rules are and accepting them
no matter who says what on social media. It's going
to be so important, I think for us to find
that that ground truth that we can trust in, knowing
(06:42):
that that that information and misinformation is swirling around. And
like you, I've seen how intentional President Elect Biden has
been about trying to prepare us as a country for that. Um,
speaking of the groundwork that that's being laid, I also
wanted to ask you for advice and way that I
would be doing even if we were just on the
phone instead of on a podcast. Uh So, right about
(07:04):
the time this podcast comes out, we're expecting to officially
make the announcement that will be nominated as Secretary of
Transportation for the new administration, and so you were a
cabinet secretary, one of the most visible cabinet secretaries in
my lifetime. Um, And the question I want to put
to you is what does it take to be a
good and effective secretary and the president's cabinet. Well, first
(07:26):
of all, congratulations, I'm thrilled by the news that you're
going to be nominated, and hope that your confirmation is
smooth and quick so that you can assume the responsibility.
I think it takes you know several things, and you're
well acquainted having been in an executive position as mayor,
(07:48):
running a city government, and then of course running a
presidential campaign, which is quite an undertaking. First of all,
you have to do the work. You have to really
immerse yourself into transportation policy, into the workings of the
Transportation Department. I had been involved in foreign relations international
(08:11):
matters for quite some time before President elect Obama asked
me to be Secretary of State. But I was blessed
to have a great briefing prepared for me. The transition team,
cooperating with the outgoing Bush administration, was ready and willing
(08:32):
to give me a very in depth education quickly about
how the state department actually worked, not just the outside view,
but from you know, the ground up. You should do
exactly the same so that you are the master of
your brief because first and foremost, you've got to demonstrate
in any of these cabinet positions that you're going to
(08:54):
be a good steward. You're going to lead and manage
a diverse, complicate, aided department, and you're going to be
really grounded literally in what it's going to take to
get results. Secondly, I think working with the incoming administration,
you have to set some goals. What is it that
(09:16):
the President will want the Department of Transportation to do? Clearly,
just from my looking at it, from this perspective, you're
going to be part of climate change. You have to
be part of the overall administration approach to climate change.
You have to be part of trying to restore confidence
in public transportation post pandemic. We cannot deal with climate change,
(09:39):
we cannot get essential frontline workers to their jobs if
people are afraid to take public transportation. What is that
going to take and how much of an investment is required.
I hope that you'll be given the chance to advocate
for high speed rail for other kinds of transportation that will,
(10:02):
you know, set us in good stead for the future.
And then you know, finally you've got to deal with
all the legacy. You've got to do everything to make
sure that uh you know, roads are maintained and bridges
are fixed, and you've got to look hard at what
happened with the f a A and it's hasty approval
(10:22):
of the last big Boeing jetliner. All of that is
in your bailey wick now and so the nuts and
bolts getting it to run well, immersing yourself and understanding
how it works now, coming up with how it should
be changed to work better in the future, and what
are the signature issues that the President and you want
(10:45):
to elevate. Uh So it's a great time. I mean,
autonomous vehicles are coming online. You've got all sorts of
advances in powering transportation that I hope the federal government
can help accelerate. So you're in a great place to
help shape the kind of future that we hope to have.
(11:24):
You know, one of the things I'm really looking forward
to is the chance to engage with a lot of
mayors coming with the mayor's eye view and a lot
of states and I know that even though most of
the country got to know you as a national figure,
you were deeply involved in state and local government policy
and advocacy. You co founded Arkansas Advocates for Children and Families.
(11:45):
You chaired the Arkansas Educational Standard Committee. I wonder as
we come into the twenties, how do you think the
role of state and local government in politics has evolved
and what you think some of the opportunities ahead are.
I think that's such a great question, Pete, and I
am a huge believer in the laboratories of democracy concept,
(12:05):
both at the state and local level. We need to
try different things. We need to learn from what states
and cities do we need to try to take successful
initiatives to scale. Um. I was really lucky in my
work in Arkansas. You mentioned two things that I was
involved in, UH and I combine that with a lot
(12:26):
of my more national endeavors chairing the Legal Services Corporation,
sharing the Children's Defense Board, because there is nothing like
that experience, like, okay, practically, how do we go from
point A to point B? And what are the impediments?
Because you have to know how state and local government work,
(12:48):
especially if you're at the federal level. Otherwise you can
have the grandest of ideas, but even if you pass
a piece of legislation, it may or may not be
successfully implemented. UH So you're bringing to your federal service
in the cabinet that kind of local experience. And of
course it shouldn't make you a naysayer they go, oh,
(13:11):
you know, it didn't work here and therefore it can't
work anywhere. But it should inform especially new and bold
ideas about what could work. How can we uh make
federalism work better? For example, what are the big ideas
and who's been working on them in local communities. I
served for um my Senate years on the Environmental UH Committee,
(13:36):
and for reasons that were interesting. UH we had the
responsibility for the highway bill and for transportation, so within
the the ambit of the jurisdiction of the Environmental Committee,
we had to reauthorize highway bills, we had to reauthorize
uh public transit money. UH So I learned a lot
(14:00):
about what the federal government used to do. I can't
speak for where it is now four years after the
Trump administration, but you should, you know, get really briefed
up on all of this and I know that the
Transition has terrific people that can do that for you.
It's part of what really excites me is is plunging
into that. And also the fact that, you know, like
(14:21):
local government, it's a relatively non ideological field, at least
it ought to be. Anything as we've learned. I mean,
even public health measures can can become part of an
ideological But this is something that pretty much everybody wants
to see happen. Better, smarter, greener infrastructure, job creation that
comes with it. You know, infrastructure has always been at
(14:41):
least among the American people, maybe not always on the
floor of the Senate, but it sometimes takes you know,
just hammering away. And I remember when bike trails rails
to trails were really controversial and the committee on on
which I served, but there were a dedicated group of
people who just kept raising it every time and up saying,
you know, we need more uh, you know, bike access
(15:03):
into towns and between communities and the rest. And you know,
when they started, you know, people kind of you know
turned away from them and rolled their eyes. But now
we can see the results of the kind of steady,
insistent advocacy. Uh that can change, can change communities in
my view, for the better. It's it's a great point.
(15:25):
You know, as mayor, I benefited from what was clearly
decades of pushing a boulder uphill because by the time
I arrived in the early part of the last decade there,
you still took a push. I took like a heat
for advancing it, but there was much more energy for that.
So it's a good reminder that that kind of change
can happen and uh, and you can be in a
position to do something about it. And and one last
thing that that you know, I would just add is
(15:48):
make sure that the briefing you get looks at good
ideas from around the world. Uh. You know, oftentimes we
don't take advantage of the trial and error that's gone
on in other countries about how to move people around
and what the choices are and the financing uh happens
(16:09):
to be. So you know, be sure that you've got
that international view. I mean, I know it's a hard sell.
It's hard to go to Congress and say, well, you know,
in the European Union or in Japan or China, because
you know, nobody wants to hear that. They want to hear. Okay,
I want to talk to me about America. But if
you have a good basic understanding of what's working elsewhere,
(16:30):
then you can look as to how to americanize it.
How how would it work? What are some other ways
of dealing with connectivity and getting people from one place
to the next in a cost effective way, And how
much does any government have to subsidize that? And to
be fair, we have totally subsidized the automobile industry in
(16:50):
so many ways for so many decades. And obviously we
subsidize the airplane industry, and we don't do it to
the extent that we used to. And we actually had, uh,
you know, specific rules about how many flights had to
go into certain small airports to keep them alive. We
have moved away from that. But we should be thinking
about what makes for a good livable society and you know,
(17:15):
maybe readjust our thinking about the you know, the cost
we're willing to pay in order to create a much
more functioning, productive society. And in a lot of rural areas,
that helps to attract and keep businesses. You can get
there faster, you can get in and out faster. So
I think it's all part of a big um you know,
(17:37):
hub of issues that you're gonna have a great time
diving into. Yeah, the point about rule communities is I
think really important too, because this is something that cannit
together literally connect rule the moment when we have such
kind of political, social, cultural, economic divisions between different different
kinds of communities. And you know, I think about it
from the perspective of my own community, South Been. I mean,
(18:00):
our city is named after a bend in a river,
and that waterway created trade routes, and then our community
really emerged around the transportation industry, around vehicles, train rail
lines made the industry possible around here, and then literally
direct jobs from that industry is as workers in this
(18:22):
community built aeronautical components, student Baker cars really built us
up and in today in different ways, but today too
that this is such an important part of what's made
life in in this part of the country possible. So
it's it's it's a really exciting field, I think, Oh,
I do true. I'm very excited for you. One thing
(18:53):
I heard that you would begin your days with on
the trail was a reflection on scriptures. Thing I didn't
realize we had in common. I wonder, how you know
Democrats aren't known for wearing our our faith on our sleeve. Uh,
and for a very good reason, I think, because you know,
we're very attuned, certainly in the LGBTQ community. Just as
one example, we're attuned to the harms that can come
(19:15):
when when somebody seeks to impose their interpretation at their
religion on someone else. But I sometimes wonder if we
lose something as a party by by not being as
forthcoming about how so many of us come at faith. Um,
how do you a purse that? How do you How
did you decide how and when and whether to to
talk about your own faith? Um? It was sort of
(19:36):
an evolving um process for me, UM, because I've always
been a person of faith, and I've always really uh
drawn great strength from uh not only personal UH advisors,
clergy and thought leaders in UH faith related subjects, but
(20:01):
also from a lot of the reading that I've done.
And you're right that somehow religion has been cast as
a partisan enterprise where if you don't believe certain things,
then uh, you can't be a religious person, and in
particular a Christian. You know, that's just not what I believe,
(20:23):
and it's not what I was taught, and I don't
think it's right, um, but it's hard to stick your
neck out if you believe that people are just gonna
take all kinds of pot shots at you. And the
other side, the on the religious divide, if you will, UM,
is so dogmatic and so well organized that they, I believe,
(20:45):
have as part of their agenda to delegitimize anyone who
claims to be a person of faith who doesn't ascribe
to their political partisan beliefs. So I think we have
left the the playing field to the other side. And
you know, maybe one thing that you can think about
(21:07):
is to find like minded people within the Biden administration
and try to think through how best to present what
to me is a an authentic understanding of one's faith
and the complexity of it. UH, that would do justice
to our beliefs and and you know, I mean just
(21:30):
trying to figure out how to bring basic values, principles
of faith UH into everyday language and experience, because the
other side basically is the faith of fear, and I
was always raised with the faith of hope and love,
and so you know, for me, you know, being understanding
(21:53):
and compassionate about our complexity and our differences is something
that we're called to do, but we need people to
work together to convey that more effectively. So we give
you know, more grounding to those who are people of
faith like us, but don't fall into the category of
politicized religion right now. So you're also a veteran of
(22:18):
the U. S. Senate, which is a challenging place in
the best of times, a place we we don't know
yet whether we're going to have a Senate or or
divided government. But anyway you cut it, the president elect
is going to face a real challenge bringing people together.
Every member of his administration in every area will face that.
What do you think is going to be the most
(22:40):
important in order to succeed? And how do you separate
you know that the areas where there really is some
hope of getting getting people to the table from the
areas where where you just have to watch out for
bad faith. Yeah, it's it's going to be very hard.
I think it's one of, you know, Joe by his
biggest challenges because his instincts have always been to bring
(23:04):
people together, find common ground, work out some kind of
acceptable compromise. And I'm amazed at what some of the
members say that I actually served with I was there
for eight years. I was both in the minority and
in the majority. And when I when I hear people
(23:26):
say things who I worked with, I found common ground with.
I sponsored legislation with UH that is so uh negative
and extreme, it's really surprising and saddening to me. So
I don't think there's any alternative to good old fashioned
relationship building, because I think that a lot of the
(23:49):
work that needs to be done can only, again to
go back to the theme of your book, be built
on some kind of trust that is personal, and then
you can go from there. But I've also been thinking
a lot, and I've recently seen a few articles. You know,
we got rid of earmarks because they were abused, and
(24:11):
you know, the famous bridge to Nowhere, and everybody thought
it was such a great achievement to you know, end
that kind of abuse of the public trust. The problem
is that we didn't have anything to substitute for working together. So,
for example, when I was a Senator, I worked with
(24:31):
a Republican member of the House who represented Buffalo, the
Buffalo area in New York to earmark money to help
a local hospital expand its research capacity. UM it was,
It was certainly worthy, it was stood scrutiny. There was
no funny business. But it brought us together. So we
(24:52):
had a working relationship, and it led to a lot
of local and state money and private money being triggered
by the federal investment which built a research center. Uh.
And if you don't have something that encourages people across
party lines and even now within our parties to work
(25:14):
together to serve their constituents, then it unfortunately leads to
number one, greater attention to donors and very extreme demanding
interest groups. Because that's who's knocking on your door. It's
not the mayor of Buffalo or the city council member
(25:36):
from Syracuse saying, you know, this bridge is falling down
and we need federal help. It's somebody saying our way
or the or no way for you and your You know,
your donations are tied to what we want you to do, etcetera.
And a lot of these members then were left without
a story to tell, you know what, how are they
spending their time? You know, they can't point infrastructure, They
(25:58):
can't point to something has been done that they had
a hand in helping to create, because it all goes
through kind of nameless formulas. So I've I've been hearing
recently that there is there is talk on on both
sides of the aisle, across the political spectrum to try
to bring back what used to be called air marks
but can be sort of locally UH driven projects that
(26:24):
would have to pass muster so they couldn't be abused.
But forcing people to work together on behalf of their constituents,
because right now you've got you know, the Republicans basically
captive of all kinds of forces outside themselves first and
foremost Trump Um, and you know, they seem almost incapable
(26:50):
of standing up and speaking out in favor of what's
best for their constituents, including what's best for our larger
UH democracy. They've got to be equipped with some things
that enable them to do that again. So you know,
that's one idea that's been thrown around, because right now
(27:11):
it is Um who gets you know, who gets rewarded
by the you know, the supporters and the interest groups
that favor favor you and that may or may not
have anything to do with your constituency. I mean, miss
McConnell's a perfect example, man. He lives in one of
the poorest states where people have really suffered. They've suffered
(27:33):
under the pandemic, they've suffered under the economy. He has
been resistant to providing additional help. He seems mostly interested
in protecting a class of donors who want to be
free from any liability if they get those you know,
meat lines and chicken lines and other kinds of uh
(27:53):
uh you know, work going again. And somehow we've got
to break that tie, and we need some civic bottoms
up engagement. I remember when I was a senator. You know,
people would come to see me from across the state
when it was time to sort of come up with
what we were going to promote that would, in their view,
(28:16):
make life better in their community. Um, and they were
you know, I would say worthy projects, and you know,
you couldn't you couldn't recommend them all, you couldn't fight
for them all. But it got people at the local
level feeling like, you know, I can I can count
on somebody in Washington listen to me about that bridge
that's going to collapse, or about this you know, new
(28:38):
uh education center that we are hoping to build. So yeah,
I think we got to get back to basics. Almost
so part of what you're talking about, I think is
the reward system that is that is so out of whack,
but but that you know, a healthy system that rewards
good policy and good work leads to more action. The
other thing you mentioned is just interperson trust and seeing
(29:01):
each other as human beings, which is of course especially
challenging in national politics. I wonder how you reflect on
maintaining the humanity, uh that that you have when you
participate in politics, because I think certainly, becoming as visible
as as you have become, you get reduced to a
cartoon character, a hero or a villain. And I know,
(29:24):
even for me in my short time in uh national politics,
I was amazed by how quickly I didn't feel anything.
I felt like I was the same person. I kind
of got up, you know, putting my twos honestly like
seeing general human being, but just the in both directions.
But but what's seeing kind of what the world are,
certainly the internet and Twitter. I have to say about you,
(29:45):
what have your ways been of uh, just staying rooted
and grounded in who you are as a person, and
how do you keep that robust to all of of
these narratives and images and everything that just kind of
swirls around you. The more visible you get. I think
that's an incredibly profound question for anybody in the public
(30:06):
arena now with the you know, with social media, it's
not just in politics, it and every walk of life.
If you, um are singled out or you have attention
for whatever it is you do. But speaking about being
involved in politics, what always has kept me going is
the reward I feel from getting something done that I
(30:28):
can really look at and feel like, you know, probably
but for my efforts, it wouldn't have happened. Uh. That's
particularly true in the constituency work that I did both
as first Lady and as a Senator, because it is
so gratifying to find a way to help solve somebody's problem.
(30:50):
And even if it's you know, just one person in
one place, UM, it's everything in the world of that person. Uh.
It matters, you know, more than anything that they have
this problem with the federal government or some other uh
entity resolved. And that reminds you, at least it reminded
(31:13):
me why I do this, because you know, there's a
lot of grief that goes with it, and so so
much made up stuff. I mean, you know, I have
just been constantly, uh you know, just incredible incredulous about
the stuff that is said and uh attributed attributed to you.
So you've got to have some as you say, ground truth.
(31:36):
You've got to feel like you are um doing this
for the right reason, uh, and that you stay as
open as possible. I mean it it is it is
not easy to sort of take the slings and arrows, um.
But if you are comparing yourself to somebody that is
(31:56):
really in a terrible spot, who has all kinds of
you know, health problems, who's you know, lost a child
to gun violence, whatever it might be, it so helps
you keep it in perspective. You you can't you know,
you can't feel sorry for yourself. You can't say, oh
(32:17):
poor me, you know, they're so mean to me, etcetera.
You just have to get up every day and say
what can I do today? How can I make a difference?
And there's that uh great scripture about you know, do
not grow weary doing good for a due time, uh
you will reap the harvest. You have to believe that.
You have to believe that you're part of a larger
(32:38):
movement of people who like you. Um, you know, want
to be kinder, want to be more compassionate, want to
be more effective, just or fairer, all the things that
I believe in, and that you're not gonna let the naysayers, uh,
you know, tear you down and stop you. There is
(33:02):
so much to be learned from the deep well of
experience that Sectary Clinton breaks from the local and state
levels in Arkansas, the national level as presidential candidate, and
the international level as u S Secretary of State. And
I really admired what she said about retaining her humanity
while in the public eye, how getting things done for constituents,
solving problems for people, helping people really has kept her
(33:24):
grounded and motivated. And as I wrap up this series
with so much ahead for all of us, I want
to leave you with an extension of that thought. As
we work through the next few months, months that will
continue to be difficult, and the decade ahead which demands
so much of us, I still believe more than ever
that we're on the precipice of a new and better
chapter and getting there is going to take imagination, boldness,
(33:46):
and inclusion, And every day is a chance to draw
those values and that inspiration from those around us. As
a final word, I want to thank my Heart for
helping us bring this podcast to life, especially are fantastic
ex kid of producer Christina Everett, who truly made it
all happen. And I want to thank all of you
for taking the time to listen. I've learned so much
(34:07):
and I hope you have to, and I'm looking forward
to continuing this journey together. For more podcasts from my
Heart Radio, visit the I Heart Radio app, Apple Podcasts,
or wherever you listen to your favorite shows.
Hi, I'm Pete, good judge, and this is the Deciding Decade.
On this podcast, we have talked with so many remarkable
current and future leaders, some as young as thirteen years old,
who have given us great hope for the decade and
century ahead of us in today. To close out this series,
(00:27):
I wanted to speak with one of the most recognizable
leaders of our time, someone who has dedicated her life
to service, someone who's built wisdom through decades of experience,
and someone who channels all of that into the important
work of encouraging people to organize, stay engaged, and run
for office. Someone who is helping to shape the decades ahead.
It is a real honor to have Secretary Hillary Clinton
(00:49):
as our final guest in the Deciding Decade podcasts. A
trailblazing attorney, first Lady of Arkansas, first Lady of the
United States, Senator, Secretary of State, presidential candidate, author, activist, wife, mother,
and grandmother, Secretary Clinton is one of the most accomplished
public servants that this country has ever produced. And though
you know this already, I can't introduce her without pausing
(01:10):
on the meaning of the fact that in two thousand
and sixteen she became the first woman ever to be
nominated by a major party for the American presidency. She
has inspired generations and women in the United States and
around the world to believe in themselves and to reach
their highest potential. To be gutsy, as she and her
daughter Chelsea often say, I have been personally inspired by
her barrier breaking work, her command of the issues that
(01:32):
face our country, and her unstoppable dedication to service. Secretary Clinton,
thank you so much for joining Oh it is such
a pleasure to talk to you, and I'm honored to
be I guess your last guest for this season of
your new podcast. I couldn't think of a better way
to wrap up the year. And you know, we call
it the Deciding Decade because it's really about how the
(01:54):
decisions that are being made now are going to shape
the trajectory of the country. And that's one of the
things I really want to explore with you. But I
want to begin with news from this week. This week
began with you, as a member of the Electoral College,
casting your vote for Joe Biden and Kamala Harris. I
think you and I agree that the US would be
better off without the Electoral College as a matter of
(02:15):
policy as a personal matter, if it weren't for the
Electoral College, you'd be the president of the United States
right now. So I wonder what was it like to
go through this process, to be an elector and to
have that chance to cast that vote. It was incredibly
moving to me, Pete, because I feel like we are
at such a pivot point in our country, and you're
(02:38):
so right about the name of your podcast. The decisions
that we now have an opportunity to try to make
thanks to the outcome of the election, are going to
be so consequential, because frankly, there's a lot of damage
to repair as well as trying to get you back
into big bold ideas. And so when I was asked
(03:00):
if I would be a member of the Electoral College,
I paused for a minute because I've been on records
since two thousand advocating for its abolition. I think it
has long out lasted any usefulness that it had. But
at the same time, I thought it would be a
good signal that we were all coming together to participate
(03:23):
in this historic constitutional ritual. I could not have guessed
how the attacks against the integrity of the election would
play out, and how desperate Trump and his enablers were
to try to overturn the results. Um So dropping that
ballot in for Joe Biden and a ballot in for
(03:45):
Kamala Harris made it feel like, Okay, we're really ready
to move on, uh, from what we've had to live
with the last four years. You know. I remember studying
in the UK, which is considered at a constitutional country
constitutional monarchy, but UH never wrote their constitution down and
I thought that was the strangest thing to try to
(04:07):
get my head around. Only to realize, I think in
the last year or so, how much of our system
depends on the unwritten rules, like the idea that when
you're defeated, you concede. It doesn't say anybody has to
do that. It doesn't say officially what what happens or
doesn't happen. And yet we've learned how important it is
for our democratic legitimacy, how somebody who who's defeated in
(04:31):
an election act and uh, I wonder what you think
it will take to shore up some of the dimensions
of our democracy that are really only protected by everybody
believing in them and everybody abiding by them. And if
we don't, they can all fall apart. Well, you're absolutely right,
and he wrote a whole book about the glue that
(04:51):
holds a system like ours together, namely trust, and there's
very little of it right now. It's been badly damn edged.
And I think what President elect Biden is trying to
do is to lay the groundwork for unifying the country.
It's going to be incredibly hard because of all of
the misinformation and poison that has been injected into the
(05:16):
minds of so many Americans, but he is absolutely right
to try. I think you have to bolster that. In
addition to setting an example and demonstrating with the values
and the standards the norms as we like to say
should be, we might have to take a hard look
at trying to pass legislation that put up some more guardrails.
(05:36):
And I'm sorry about that. I wish I weren't even
contemplating it. But you know, there are certain things, uh
that maybe we haven't passed on as we should or
taught in school or civics. UH, that should be just assumed.
You mentioned one like you have every right to make
(05:57):
a fair argument against an outcome of an election if
there's evidence, uh and facts to back it. Up. But
when there isn't, it's time to retreat and concede. From
what I know talking to people on the Biden transition,
they're very focused on an agenda to protect our democracy,
to protect our elections, and I hope that they're going
(06:20):
to be able to enact a lot of that because
we're gonna have to change some of the expectations and
the behaviors so that you know, people get used to
once more understanding what the rules are and accepting them
no matter who says what on social media. It's going
to be so important, I think for us to find
that that ground truth that we can trust in, knowing
(06:42):
that that that information and misinformation is swirling around. And
like you, I've seen how intentional President Elect Biden has
been about trying to prepare us as a country for that. Um,
speaking of the groundwork that that's being laid, I also
wanted to ask you for advice and way that I
would be doing even if we were just on the
phone instead of on a podcast. Uh So, right about
(07:04):
the time this podcast comes out, we're expecting to officially
make the announcement that will be nominated as Secretary of
Transportation for the new administration, and so you were a
cabinet secretary, one of the most visible cabinet secretaries in
my lifetime. Um, And the question I want to put
to you is what does it take to be a
good and effective secretary and the president's cabinet. Well, first
(07:26):
of all, congratulations, I'm thrilled by the news that you're
going to be nominated, and hope that your confirmation is
smooth and quick so that you can assume the responsibility.
I think it takes you know several things, and you're
well acquainted having been in an executive position as mayor,
(07:48):
running a city government, and then of course running a
presidential campaign, which is quite an undertaking. First of all,
you have to do the work. You have to really
immerse yourself into transportation policy, into the workings of the
Transportation Department. I had been involved in foreign relations international
(08:11):
matters for quite some time before President elect Obama asked
me to be Secretary of State. But I was blessed
to have a great briefing prepared for me. The transition team,
cooperating with the outgoing Bush administration, was ready and willing
(08:32):
to give me a very in depth education quickly about
how the state department actually worked, not just the outside view,
but from you know, the ground up. You should do
exactly the same so that you are the master of
your brief because first and foremost, you've got to demonstrate
in any of these cabinet positions that you're going to
(08:54):
be a good steward. You're going to lead and manage
a diverse, complicate, aided department, and you're going to be
really grounded literally in what it's going to take to
get results. Secondly, I think working with the incoming administration,
you have to set some goals. What is it that
(09:16):
the President will want the Department of Transportation to do? Clearly,
just from my looking at it, from this perspective, you're
going to be part of climate change. You have to
be part of the overall administration approach to climate change.
You have to be part of trying to restore confidence
in public transportation post pandemic. We cannot deal with climate change,
(09:39):
we cannot get essential frontline workers to their jobs if
people are afraid to take public transportation. What is that
going to take and how much of an investment is required.
I hope that you'll be given the chance to advocate
for high speed rail for other kinds of transportation that will,
(10:02):
you know, set us in good stead for the future.
And then you know, finally you've got to deal with
all the legacy. You've got to do everything to make
sure that uh you know, roads are maintained and bridges
are fixed, and you've got to look hard at what
happened with the f a A and it's hasty approval
(10:22):
of the last big Boeing jetliner. All of that is
in your bailey wick now and so the nuts and
bolts getting it to run well, immersing yourself and understanding
how it works now, coming up with how it should
be changed to work better in the future, and what
are the signature issues that the President and you want
(10:45):
to elevate. Uh So it's a great time. I mean,
autonomous vehicles are coming online. You've got all sorts of
advances in powering transportation that I hope the federal government
can help accelerate. So you're in a great place to
help shape the kind of future that we hope to have.
(11:24):
You know, one of the things I'm really looking forward
to is the chance to engage with a lot of
mayors coming with the mayor's eye view and a lot
of states and I know that even though most of
the country got to know you as a national figure,
you were deeply involved in state and local government policy
and advocacy. You co founded Arkansas Advocates for Children and Families.
(11:45):
You chaired the Arkansas Educational Standard Committee. I wonder as
we come into the twenties, how do you think the
role of state and local government in politics has evolved
and what you think some of the opportunities ahead are.
I think that's such a great question, Pete, and I
am a huge believer in the laboratories of democracy concept,
(12:05):
both at the state and local level. We need to
try different things. We need to learn from what states
and cities do we need to try to take successful
initiatives to scale. Um. I was really lucky in my
work in Arkansas. You mentioned two things that I was
involved in, UH and I combine that with a lot
(12:26):
of my more national endeavors chairing the Legal Services Corporation,
sharing the Children's Defense Board, because there is nothing like
that experience, like, okay, practically, how do we go from
point A to point B? And what are the impediments?
Because you have to know how state and local government work,
(12:48):
especially if you're at the federal level. Otherwise you can
have the grandest of ideas, but even if you pass
a piece of legislation, it may or may not be
successfully implemented. UH So you're bringing to your federal service
in the cabinet that kind of local experience. And of
course it shouldn't make you a naysayer they go, oh,
(13:11):
you know, it didn't work here and therefore it can't
work anywhere. But it should inform especially new and bold
ideas about what could work. How can we uh make
federalism work better? For example, what are the big ideas
and who's been working on them in local communities. I
served for um my Senate years on the Environmental UH Committee,
(13:36):
and for reasons that were interesting. UH we had the
responsibility for the highway bill and for transportation, so within
the the ambit of the jurisdiction of the Environmental Committee,
we had to reauthorize highway bills, we had to reauthorize
uh public transit money. UH So I learned a lot
(14:00):
about what the federal government used to do. I can't
speak for where it is now four years after the
Trump administration, but you should, you know, get really briefed
up on all of this and I know that the
Transition has terrific people that can do that for you.
It's part of what really excites me is is plunging
into that. And also the fact that, you know, like
(14:21):
local government, it's a relatively non ideological field, at least
it ought to be. Anything as we've learned. I mean,
even public health measures can can become part of an
ideological But this is something that pretty much everybody wants
to see happen. Better, smarter, greener infrastructure, job creation that
comes with it. You know, infrastructure has always been at
(14:41):
least among the American people, maybe not always on the
floor of the Senate, but it sometimes takes you know,
just hammering away. And I remember when bike trails rails
to trails were really controversial and the committee on on
which I served, but there were a dedicated group of
people who just kept raising it every time and up saying,
you know, we need more uh, you know, bike access
(15:03):
into towns and between communities and the rest. And you know,
when they started, you know, people kind of you know
turned away from them and rolled their eyes. But now
we can see the results of the kind of steady,
insistent advocacy. Uh that can change, can change communities in
my view, for the better. It's it's a great point.
(15:25):
You know, as mayor, I benefited from what was clearly
decades of pushing a boulder uphill because by the time
I arrived in the early part of the last decade there,
you still took a push. I took like a heat
for advancing it, but there was much more energy for that.
So it's a good reminder that that kind of change
can happen and uh, and you can be in a
position to do something about it. And and one last
thing that that you know, I would just add is
(15:48):
make sure that the briefing you get looks at good
ideas from around the world. Uh. You know, oftentimes we
don't take advantage of the trial and error that's gone
on in other countries about how to move people around
and what the choices are and the financing uh happens
(16:09):
to be. So you know, be sure that you've got
that international view. I mean, I know it's a hard sell.
It's hard to go to Congress and say, well, you know,
in the European Union or in Japan or China, because
you know, nobody wants to hear that. They want to hear. Okay,
I want to talk to me about America. But if
you have a good basic understanding of what's working elsewhere,
(16:30):
then you can look as to how to americanize it.
How how would it work? What are some other ways
of dealing with connectivity and getting people from one place
to the next in a cost effective way, And how
much does any government have to subsidize that? And to
be fair, we have totally subsidized the automobile industry in
(16:50):
so many ways for so many decades. And obviously we
subsidize the airplane industry, and we don't do it to
the extent that we used to. And we actually had, uh,
you know, specific rules about how many flights had to
go into certain small airports to keep them alive. We
have moved away from that. But we should be thinking
about what makes for a good livable society and you know,
(17:15):
maybe readjust our thinking about the you know, the cost
we're willing to pay in order to create a much
more functioning, productive society. And in a lot of rural areas,
that helps to attract and keep businesses. You can get
there faster, you can get in and out faster. So
I think it's all part of a big um you know,
(17:37):
hub of issues that you're gonna have a great time
diving into. Yeah, the point about rule communities is I
think really important too, because this is something that cannit
together literally connect rule the moment when we have such
kind of political, social, cultural, economic divisions between different different
kinds of communities. And you know, I think about it
from the perspective of my own community, South Been. I mean,
(18:00):
our city is named after a bend in a river,
and that waterway created trade routes, and then our community
really emerged around the transportation industry, around vehicles, train rail
lines made the industry possible around here, and then literally
direct jobs from that industry is as workers in this
(18:22):
community built aeronautical components, student Baker cars really built us
up and in today in different ways, but today too
that this is such an important part of what's made
life in in this part of the country possible. So
it's it's it's a really exciting field, I think, Oh,
I do true. I'm very excited for you. One thing
(18:53):
I heard that you would begin your days with on
the trail was a reflection on scriptures. Thing I didn't
realize we had in common. I wonder, how you know
Democrats aren't known for wearing our our faith on our sleeve. Uh,
and for a very good reason, I think, because you know,
we're very attuned, certainly in the LGBTQ community. Just as
one example, we're attuned to the harms that can come
(19:15):
when when somebody seeks to impose their interpretation at their
religion on someone else. But I sometimes wonder if we
lose something as a party by by not being as
forthcoming about how so many of us come at faith. Um,
how do you a purse that? How do you How
did you decide how and when and whether to to
talk about your own faith? Um? It was sort of
(19:36):
an evolving um process for me, UM, because I've always
been a person of faith, and I've always really uh
drawn great strength from uh not only personal UH advisors,
clergy and thought leaders in UH faith related subjects, but
(20:01):
also from a lot of the reading that I've done.
And you're right that somehow religion has been cast as
a partisan enterprise where if you don't believe certain things,
then uh, you can't be a religious person, and in
particular a Christian. You know, that's just not what I believe,
(20:23):
and it's not what I was taught, and I don't
think it's right, um, but it's hard to stick your
neck out if you believe that people are just gonna
take all kinds of pot shots at you. And the
other side, the on the religious divide, if you will, UM,
is so dogmatic and so well organized that they, I believe,
(20:45):
have as part of their agenda to delegitimize anyone who
claims to be a person of faith who doesn't ascribe
to their political partisan beliefs. So I think we have
left the the playing field to the other side. And
you know, maybe one thing that you can think about
(21:07):
is to find like minded people within the Biden administration
and try to think through how best to present what
to me is a an authentic understanding of one's faith
and the complexity of it. UH, that would do justice
to our beliefs and and you know, I mean just
(21:30):
trying to figure out how to bring basic values, principles
of faith UH into everyday language and experience, because the
other side basically is the faith of fear, and I
was always raised with the faith of hope and love,
and so you know, for me, you know, being understanding
(21:53):
and compassionate about our complexity and our differences is something
that we're called to do, but we need people to
work together to convey that more effectively. So we give
you know, more grounding to those who are people of
faith like us, but don't fall into the category of
politicized religion right now. So you're also a veteran of
(22:18):
the U. S. Senate, which is a challenging place in
the best of times, a place we we don't know
yet whether we're going to have a Senate or or
divided government. But anyway you cut it, the president elect
is going to face a real challenge bringing people together.
Every member of his administration in every area will face that.
What do you think is going to be the most
(22:40):
important in order to succeed? And how do you separate
you know that the areas where there really is some
hope of getting getting people to the table from the
areas where where you just have to watch out for
bad faith. Yeah, it's it's going to be very hard.
I think it's one of, you know, Joe by his
biggest challenges because his instincts have always been to bring
(23:04):
people together, find common ground, work out some kind of
acceptable compromise. And I'm amazed at what some of the
members say that I actually served with I was there
for eight years. I was both in the minority and
in the majority. And when I when I hear people
(23:26):
say things who I worked with, I found common ground with.
I sponsored legislation with UH that is so uh negative
and extreme, it's really surprising and saddening to me. So
I don't think there's any alternative to good old fashioned
relationship building, because I think that a lot of the
(23:49):
work that needs to be done can only, again to
go back to the theme of your book, be built
on some kind of trust that is personal, and then
you can go from there. But I've also been thinking
a lot, and I've recently seen a few articles. You know,
we got rid of earmarks because they were abused, and
(24:11):
you know, the famous bridge to Nowhere, and everybody thought
it was such a great achievement to you know, end
that kind of abuse of the public trust. The problem
is that we didn't have anything to substitute for working together. So,
for example, when I was a Senator, I worked with
(24:31):
a Republican member of the House who represented Buffalo, the
Buffalo area in New York to earmark money to help
a local hospital expand its research capacity. UM it was,
It was certainly worthy, it was stood scrutiny. There was
no funny business. But it brought us together. So we
(24:52):
had a working relationship, and it led to a lot
of local and state money and private money being triggered
by the federal investment which built a research center. Uh.
And if you don't have something that encourages people across
party lines and even now within our parties to work
(25:14):
together to serve their constituents, then it unfortunately leads to
number one, greater attention to donors and very extreme demanding
interest groups. Because that's who's knocking on your door. It's
not the mayor of Buffalo or the city council member
(25:36):
from Syracuse saying, you know, this bridge is falling down
and we need federal help. It's somebody saying our way
or the or no way for you and your You know,
your donations are tied to what we want you to do, etcetera.
And a lot of these members then were left without
a story to tell, you know what, how are they
spending their time? You know, they can't point infrastructure, They
(25:58):
can't point to something has been done that they had
a hand in helping to create, because it all goes
through kind of nameless formulas. So I've I've been hearing
recently that there is there is talk on on both
sides of the aisle, across the political spectrum to try
to bring back what used to be called air marks
but can be sort of locally UH driven projects that
(26:24):
would have to pass muster so they couldn't be abused.
But forcing people to work together on behalf of their constituents,
because right now you've got you know, the Republicans basically
captive of all kinds of forces outside themselves first and
foremost Trump Um, and you know, they seem almost incapable
(26:50):
of standing up and speaking out in favor of what's
best for their constituents, including what's best for our larger
UH democracy. They've got to be equipped with some things
that enable them to do that again. So you know,
that's one idea that's been thrown around, because right now
(27:11):
it is Um who gets you know, who gets rewarded
by the you know, the supporters and the interest groups
that favor favor you and that may or may not
have anything to do with your constituency. I mean, miss
McConnell's a perfect example, man. He lives in one of
the poorest states where people have really suffered. They've suffered
(27:33):
under the pandemic, they've suffered under the economy. He has
been resistant to providing additional help. He seems mostly interested
in protecting a class of donors who want to be
free from any liability if they get those you know,
meat lines and chicken lines and other kinds of uh
(27:53):
uh you know, work going again. And somehow we've got
to break that tie, and we need some civic bottoms
up engagement. I remember when I was a senator. You know,
people would come to see me from across the state
when it was time to sort of come up with
what we were going to promote that would, in their view,
(28:16):
make life better in their community. Um, and they were
you know, I would say worthy projects, and you know,
you couldn't you couldn't recommend them all, you couldn't fight
for them all. But it got people at the local
level feeling like, you know, I can I can count
on somebody in Washington listen to me about that bridge
that's going to collapse, or about this you know, new
(28:38):
uh education center that we are hoping to build. So yeah,
I think we got to get back to basics. Almost
so part of what you're talking about, I think is
the reward system that is that is so out of whack,
but but that you know, a healthy system that rewards
good policy and good work leads to more action. The
other thing you mentioned is just interperson trust and seeing
(29:01):
each other as human beings, which is of course especially
challenging in national politics. I wonder how you reflect on
maintaining the humanity, uh that that you have when you
participate in politics, because I think certainly, becoming as visible
as as you have become, you get reduced to a
cartoon character, a hero or a villain. And I know,
(29:24):
even for me in my short time in uh national politics,
I was amazed by how quickly I didn't feel anything.
I felt like I was the same person. I kind
of got up, you know, putting my twos honestly like
seeing general human being, but just the in both directions.
But but what's seeing kind of what the world are,
certainly the internet and Twitter. I have to say about you,
(29:45):
what have your ways been of uh, just staying rooted
and grounded in who you are as a person, and
how do you keep that robust to all of of
these narratives and images and everything that just kind of
swirls around you. The more visible you get. I think
that's an incredibly profound question for anybody in the public
(30:06):
arena now with the you know, with social media, it's
not just in politics, it and every walk of life.
If you, um are singled out or you have attention
for whatever it is you do. But speaking about being
involved in politics, what always has kept me going is
the reward I feel from getting something done that I
(30:28):
can really look at and feel like, you know, probably
but for my efforts, it wouldn't have happened. Uh. That's
particularly true in the constituency work that I did both
as first Lady and as a Senator, because it is
so gratifying to find a way to help solve somebody's problem.
(30:50):
And even if it's you know, just one person in
one place, UM, it's everything in the world of that person. Uh.
It matters, you know, more than anything that they have
this problem with the federal government or some other uh
entity resolved. And that reminds you, at least it reminded
(31:13):
me why I do this, because you know, there's a
lot of grief that goes with it, and so so
much made up stuff. I mean, you know, I have
just been constantly, uh you know, just incredible incredulous about
the stuff that is said and uh attributed attributed to you.
So you've got to have some as you say, ground truth.
(31:36):
You've got to feel like you are um doing this
for the right reason, uh, and that you stay as
open as possible. I mean it it is it is
not easy to sort of take the slings and arrows, um.
But if you are comparing yourself to somebody that is
(31:56):
really in a terrible spot, who has all kinds of
you know, health problems, who's you know, lost a child
to gun violence, whatever it might be, it so helps
you keep it in perspective. You you can't you know,
you can't feel sorry for yourself. You can't say, oh
(32:17):
poor me, you know, they're so mean to me, etcetera.
You just have to get up every day and say
what can I do today? How can I make a difference?
And there's that uh great scripture about you know, do
not grow weary doing good for a due time, uh
you will reap the harvest. You have to believe that.
You have to believe that you're part of a larger
(32:38):
movement of people who like you. Um, you know, want
to be kinder, want to be more compassionate, want to
be more effective, just or fairer, all the things that
I believe in, and that you're not gonna let the naysayers, uh,
you know, tear you down and stop you. There is
(33:02):
so much to be learned from the deep well of
experience that Sectary Clinton breaks from the local and state
levels in Arkansas, the national level as presidential candidate, and
the international level as u S Secretary of State. And
I really admired what she said about retaining her humanity
while in the public eye, how getting things done for constituents,
solving problems for people, helping people really has kept her
(33:24):
grounded and motivated. And as I wrap up this series
with so much ahead for all of us, I want
to leave you with an extension of that thought. As
we work through the next few months, months that will
continue to be difficult, and the decade ahead which demands
so much of us, I still believe more than ever
that we're on the precipice of a new and better
chapter and getting there is going to take imagination, boldness,
(33:46):
and inclusion, And every day is a chance to draw
those values and that inspiration from those around us. As
a final word, I want to thank my Heart for
helping us bring this podcast to life, especially are fantastic
ex kid of producer Christina Everett, who truly made it
all happen. And I want to thank all of you
for taking the time to listen. I've learned so much
(34:07):
and I hope you have to, and I'm looking forward
to continuing this journey together. For more podcasts from my
Heart Radio, visit the I Heart Radio app, Apple Podcasts,
or wherever you listen to your favorite shows.
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