November 27, 2020 • 22 mins
It's important, but not often prioritized, that younger generations see themselves in the stories before them. Are there characters who have similar backgrounds, characteristics, and experiences to them? Do they see their families and neighborhoods reflected in what they read? Too often, the answer is no. But at 15, Marley Dias has already done a lot to change that. In 2015, she launched the #1000BlackGirlBooks drive to collect and donate 1,000 children’s books featuring Black female protagonists. To date, she’s collected over 12,000 books. Continuing our series of conversations with youth leaders, Pete talks to Marley about the lack of diversity in children's books, the importance of representation in the classroom, and the surprising pattern in the books she found.
Learn more about your ad-choices at https://www.iheartpodcastnetwork.com
See omnystudio.com/listener for privacy information.
Mark as Played
Transcript
Episode Transcript
Available transcripts are automatically generated. Complete accuracy is not guaranteed.
Speaker 1 (00:03):
Hi, I'm Pete good Judge and this is the Deciding Decade.
A few weeks ago, we spoke with director John Chew
about the importance of diverse representation in film. We discussed
why it's so significant for younger generations to see themselves
(00:24):
in the images and the stories. Before there's a parallel
conversation to be had about what kids growing up and
learning about the world are reading. As they start diving
into books, are there characters who have similar backgrounds, characteristics,
and experiences to them? Do they see their families and
neighborhoods reflected in what they read? In short, to children
of every background see themselves on the page too often,
(00:47):
as you can imagine, the answer is no. But my
next guest, part of our series of conversations with youth leaders,
is a next generation advocate who has already done a
lot to change that. Marley Dias is a fifteen year
old activist and author. In November, she launched the hashtag
thousand Black Girl Books Drive with the goal of collecting
(01:10):
a thousand books featuring black female protagonists. She not only
collected and delivered one thousand, six hundred books within that
first year, but has also collected over twelve thousand to date.
Since then, she has served as an editor in residence
at l dot Com, published a book called Marley Das
Gets It Done and So Can You, was named a
Forbes thirty list for Media and Times twenty five most
(01:34):
Influential Teens, and was a speaker at the first night
of this year's Democratic National Convention. She's also an executive
producer for and host of Netflix's Bookmarks series, which features
children's books written by black authors about the black experience,
and each episode shows the books read aloud by black
leaders and activists. Welcome, Marley. It's so good to have
(01:56):
you with us today. Thank you for having me. I
really appreciate you joining and cited for the conversation that
we're going to have. Especially interested in learning more about
your great work with the book Drive and other projects.
But first I want to learn a little more about
your background. I understand that you grew up with a
love of reading, and I was curious what things you
read as you were growing up that had the biggest
(02:17):
impact on you and sparked that love of reading for you.
I'm only fifteen, so I don't have, you know, a
long history ahead of mirror behind me, but I've always
been a lifelong reader. My mom is a sociologist, and
even though she doesn't necessarily love to read, she's done
research and understand the importance of making sure that books
and curiosity is involved in every household and every family.
(02:39):
My dad's kind of like a magazine guy, so they
would always, you know, push me to do something that
they wish they had done as a kid, and I
think it really helped in the development of my vocabulary,
my understanding of my sense of self and of other people.
And one book that I really motivated me not only
to start the one thousand Black Girl Books campaign, but
hopefully read more and to encourage more kids to read
(03:00):
is Ground Girl Dreaming by Jacqueline Woodson. She is one
of the most prolific Black authors of all time. She's
now I consider her a family friend after five years
of one thousand Black Girl Books. But um, it's actually
a memoir about her life written in verse, and I
had never felt that there was really a story about
kind of the people that were the in between the
teacher's daughters, the bus driver's daughters, the people that don't
(03:22):
necessarily stand out as always needing help, but the people
that sometimes need the most, that they're not the most
privileged or resource, but they're not the least. UM and
kind of struggling with feeling like it's hard to ask
her help or hard to feel like you're exceptional, but
not to feel like you're terrible. UM. And I really
loved that book and I think it helped me a
lot in my own personal confidence and giving it to
(03:42):
other kids to read. So you described your your upbringing,
your parents as a big influence on your reading life,
And am I right that it was a conversation with
your mother that helped lead to you launching the Thousand
Black Girl Books initiative. Yes, it was. I was sitting
in a dinner with my mom. We used to go
to the dinner every single weekend an elementary school and
middle school, and she asked me, when I was in
(04:03):
sixth grade, what I wish I could have changed about
my elementary school experience, and I told her that I
really liked to read, and I thought my teachers did
a great job of like having us read interesting books,
but a lot of them did not have black girls
as the main character. And my fifth grade year, I
read three books, all of which had white boys and
their dogs as the main character. So I read Old Yeller,
(04:24):
I read Where the Red Fern Grows, and I read
the Shiloh series all about hunting dogs and blonde hair,
blue eyed white boy playing with them. So as much
as I like to read, I thought that there was
an issue with that, you know, kind of repeated pattern,
and she encouraged me to do something about it. And
how was that received when you were talking with classmates
or teachers or others who were introducing these books to you.
(04:45):
Did they see the issue right away or did you
feel like you had to be kind of explaining and
educating those around you on why you know that there's
more to childhood than white kids with their dogs. It
was difficult for me, It really was, because I was
nervous that my teacher would have thought that I didn't
believe in his teaching or the style of teaching. But um,
I actually didn't really even talk to him about it
when I launched the campaign because I was afraid that
(05:07):
he would hate me, or like once he started to
go viral, that he would be upset. But talking to
him within those six months where it started to grow,
he was very happy that, you know, someone was willing
to openly challenge something that he really thought was great,
and I think it really helped my teachers in my
school develop a new understanding. But for a lot of
kids who may have live in low income household or
(05:28):
have less resources and go to our public libraries, they
don't necessarily know what they don't have. So if they
are not having parents that are actively buying them diverse books,
they're not going to know that stories about black girls exist,
that we can hear about black people's experiences other than
the civil rights movement or an enslavement story. Um. And
I think it was super interesting to realize that so
many people are open to that idea, but they don't
(05:49):
know where these books exist, They have never read them,
they don't think that they're out there, and they normally
see the white narrative, associational narrative. So tell us about
the process, now you now, where do you go? Is
you decide that you want to collect these books? Are
you are you rooting around the shelves at home, are
you googling black girls leading in books on online? Or
(06:10):
you're pouring through the library. To take us through that process.
So the first thing I really had to do after
I kind of watched that can play with my mom
was I had to understand if this was just my
school's problem or if it was a like American school
problem or a world school problem. Um. And kind of
through more research and my mom making me sit and
watch documentaries and read graphs and all these things, we
(06:31):
understand that it's an issue that exists on a nationwide
and kind of global basis of not having diversity within books,
uh and particularly having mainly white characters or animals before
having stories of Latin X people, black people, LGBTQ people, um.
And it's kind of a repeated issue. So the first
thing I had to do is know that it's not
this my problem, but it's actually a problem that can
(06:52):
concern so many other students. So after doing that, I
used to pose with my mom and take pictures with
the Black Girl books that I had in my home,
and I would tell her please donate to and then
we have a location where people can donate books. And
it was super slow at the beginning. Then I had
some more media opportunities and I finally got to talk
and introduce myself to new people, and that's when books
started to come in and really floor and cover the
(07:14):
floors of our office building and stack up. What did
you find as you started going through all of these
titles that were coming your way, were their patterns that
surprised you? Yes, there's one very unique pattern that, uh
it kind of upset me a lot. Is that a
lot of these books are published by independent authors or
from indie or independent book publishing houses. And that we
(07:36):
notice that when you look at the people that are
really doing the work to prioritize diversity, it's normally people
making books in their houses. And if you are an
independent or smaller book publisher, you are less likely to
end up in curriculums because a lot of the times
school districts or school boards will have partnerships with a
specific company. So let's say it's a really really big
publishing company, They're more likely to get all of their
(07:58):
books from one publishing house, so they're not going to
the people that sell books in their trunk or the
people that are on page thirty of a list of
books to buy. So um, it's really difficult and in
frustrating to see that these people that are really putting
in the work to make sure that black gas stories
are out there don't get the credit or publicity as
many other authors. So who are your best partners in
(08:19):
in changing that? You've got these fantastic authors generating wonderful
books in literature. Who do you think is in the
best position to, uh to fill in that gap and
make sure these books reach a wider audience and get
onto that that shelf in the school library or the
public library or the classroom. Yeah, there's been really three
great organizations that have helped me in this work. Is Scholastic,
(08:40):
which my book is published with. And it was a
tough decision to figure out who I wanted to publish
a book with, because it was not only about the
experience of me, you know, having a book and being
able to secure things that I was interested in and traveling,
but also about how can I leave a mark that
exists beyond you know, an interview which I would normally do,
something that will exist long, long long after all these things. Um.
(09:01):
And one way we're really able to incorporate and to
prioritize independent stories was in the back of my book,
there's a list of five hundred books where black girls
are the main characters. So it's kind of like a
scavenger hunt to find more and to find more um.
And most of these books are not published by Scholastics,
so they are using their platform and putting me out
there in order to promote so many other authors that
(09:23):
they are not necessarily reaping the benefits of putting their
name out there. UM. And I'd say the second one
is the American Library Association, and all of those chapters
kind of count as my third one. Librarians are the best.
They're actually they don't get nearly enough credit in this country,
and they are so supportive of me online and they
can continue to show my interviews, my books and to
listen to the things that I recommend, and I feel
(09:44):
like I really have a space in their classrooms. That
makes you super happy. It sounds like you're not only
(10:08):
an ambassador for representation in the publishing world, but you're
an ambassador for reading among your peers. How do your
classmates and peers think about what you're doing and how's
it been received? So that's a that's a tough question
because I think there's definitely a mix of responses a
lot of the times, because I have a larger social
(10:28):
media following and they don't see me having to count
books by hand or do excelf spreads. You's putting people's
titles and putting their names in, taking pictures for hours
and hours at a time, you know, meeting eight hundred people,
not now but obviously, but like you know, standing in
long lines. Um, people don't always see that. And they
get to see when you meet a famous person, or
when you get to travel to a country, or when
(10:51):
you get your name and a headline of something, or
when you get a Netflix show, and they don't understand
always kind of the harder work that it takes and
how I am a lot of the times when I
enter a space, I'm the youngest, I'm the first, I'm
the only, and how that can definitely be an intimidating
experience for me. Um, nothing I nothing I do necessarily
(11:11):
just comes naturally to me. That I obviously have some
abilities that other people don't have when it comes to
the way I speak or the success of my campaign,
But I still have to put in so much work
to keep these things alive and to keep this dream
of the importance of literacy, the importance of change making
within my life and my community. So for some people,
they're super, super proud and they understand that maybe this
(11:33):
is why she didn't come to this, or maybe this
is why she missed out on that. Um. But other
people just see it as, Oh, she got famous for
this thing, and now she gets to travel and do
all these amazing things. But UM, I think it's it's
more the positive than the negatives. But the negatives don't
bother me too much. I gotta tell you, this doesn't
sound wildly different than the experience of becoming visible when
you run for office. I wonder if you ever decided
(11:56):
to do that, you'd have a huge head start. So
tell me who one of the biggest things you think
are different for someone who sees themselves on the page
a black girl, for example, opening up a book where
the protagonist is a black girl, how does she see
herself differently? How does she see the text differently? In
other words, how do you explain why this matters so much?
(12:18):
So I get this question all the time from teachers
and actually from a lot of students. Uh, And I
think one of the reasons that it helps build confidence. Um,
many white people may see it as a given to
feel like, oh, I know all the experiences of what
happened in Europe and what happened from these time periods
to people that look like me, and it feels like
something that they don't have to fight for or necessarily
(12:38):
account for. Check out and make sure. Um. And the
reason why we don't necessarily have like a White History
Month and things of that sort is because it's a
given within this country that white history is told. UM.
So I think for a lot of people, I always
want to make sure that they understand that their narratives
are not something that necessarily has ever been put under
like in the back burner or we'll just have to
(12:59):
say of it for this time that, um. The experiences,
the culture, the the the things that they love and
prioritize are put at the front. And it can help
so many young black people to feel like, oh my gosh,
my hair is cool, or some person who said this
thing to me, and now I hear it's happening in
a book and I know I'm not alone in that struggle,
or hearing that their accomplishments and goals are achieva because
(13:21):
a young black person did it too. Or they see
black astronauts, they see black archaeologists. Um And although race
is not everything, and I get that common a lot
too is that why does race matter? But it does
affect the way we see the world and does affect
our experiences and our access. And by showing to kids
that you have the potential to be great, uh, including
your race, not regardless of your race, you can do
(13:42):
amazing things, you know. I saw you once to describe
your campaign in a way I thought was really interesting
and important. In your words, he said that the campaign
is about creating space for all rather than pushing one
group out. And that really got my attention because I
think when it comes to struggles for racial equity and representation,
(14:02):
there is often a sense of pushback among people, usually
white people, who feel like they have something to lose
in a context of of greater equality. And I wonder
what you say to people who seem to have this
this fear that something is somehow being taken away from
them when everyone is fully represented. Have you encountered that
(14:24):
and what other ways have you found for dealing with that.
I definitely have encountered that or witnessed other activists for
people I care about encounter that, and it definitely kind
of deeply frustrates me that I feel as though if
you have an issue with someone else gaining rights or
gaining equity or the ability. That is a fundamental and
ethical problem that you have. That's not the problem of
(14:46):
anybody else. And it and when it comes to especially
in my library where I had five books I read
in one year that had white boys, is the main character.
That's simply taking out to and adding in two more
diverse books. You know, it not necessarily saying that we
are never going to learn about white people's experiences, We're
never going to learn about boys experiences, but we're gonna
(15:07):
add some more. We're gonna mix it up. We're going
to include people who are what we normally see and
people that we don't normally see um. And I think
people need to understand that there's always a potential for
change and that we don't need to see things as gordon,
as bad, but rather as new, um and exciting. And
I think a lot of people are not interested in
the potential for greatness for all and people need to
(15:27):
lose that fear and to understand that there's so much
that can be gained from understanding and listening to other
people and not much to lose from that experience. So
we're in an extraordinary moment in American history, a black
woman for the first time ever. A matter of fact,
the first time a woman ever as well as a
black woman as well as an American and South Asian descent,
(15:49):
has been elected vice president of the the United States. What
what does that mean to you? They meant a lot
to me, And I think it's super exciting because, as
she said in her speech, that this is an opportunity
for so many other young girls to see themselves and
and feel really empowered and motivated to be great and
to achieve things that no one else has done. I
have spent a lot of time being the first and youngest,
(16:10):
and I can imagine the fears that she may have
had um and not even to that level of definitely
not being vice president but but vice president elect. But
I definitely understand the bravery that she's taken and the
steps that she's really kind of had to do that
so many people have had negative and adverse feelings about,
and it means a lot to me. It's super cool,
and it's really amazing to think that now that I'm
(16:32):
a teenager and this didn't happen like when I was
UM four or five, when Obama was elected, that I
now can remember this moment and see the election, to
be a part of this and to encourage my parents
to vote and to help them educate themselves. Uh is
something that's super awesome because now that I'm a teenager,
this will stay with me rather than when I was
super super young and I didn't know the significance of
(16:53):
some of the historical events that happened. So in your book,
Marley Dayas Gets It Done, you offer tips for paying
it forward, and the book shows young people things that
they can do to galvanize their own power for the
common good. Uh. Now, I'm I'm what you would call
an elder millennial. I'm in the older range of that
age group. I'm guessing a lot of our listeners are
(17:14):
probably a little bit older than you. Um, but I'm curious,
what do you recommend to us? How can all of
us do something with our strengths to make positive change.
I think one thing you can do, and it's simple
for everybody, is to learn to listen and really listen
to learn. My mom voices that to me that it's
super important to take a second to understand that. Okay,
(17:35):
I may think I know so much about one thing,
but what new perspectives. Can I be a part of
How can I be that person that someone says, this
person supported me and now I'm able to do great
things they listen to me even when I was struggling,
And to try our best to show empathy and compassion
for others. UM. I always believe that being hopeful and
being optimistic something that's super important. And I find that
(17:56):
especially adults that have more experience of watching things go
really well and go really bad or not always this optimistic.
And I feel like I've seen things go really well
and really bad and and still try my best to
be optimistic. So sharing in that hope and and spreading optimism,
whether that's on social media, and trying your best to
educate others about the potential for great things to happen, UM,
(18:17):
And to always kind of look to the horizon that
there is potential for greatness in everyday life and in
everyday people. That's really good advice. What what are your
greatest sources of optimism and and hope? How do you
replenish that well when you need to find more reasons
to feel good about the future. Well, I think one
of the great moments of optimism for me is when
(18:40):
adults invite me to come talk about how I feel.
I think for a lot of teenagers, they feel like
adults don't understand, they lack the compassion for teenage curiosity
or wild ideas or tenacity. Um, And when I get
opportunities to have conversations with adults, it means a lot
to me because I don't always like that feeling that
I am only going to be able to appeal to
(19:00):
one audience, or that there's only one type of person
that's going to want to hear me speak. But UM,
it's really awesome when I get those chances. And I
hope that as I grow older and I become a
person that can vote and can be cypically engaged in
new ways, that these kind of platforms and conversations continue
to grow for me and other young people. So this
podcast is called The Deciding Decade because I like thinking
(19:22):
about what the twenties are going to be, like, what
it would mean for them to go well or for
them to go poorly, and what's at stake when we
get to the year twenty thirty and we're looking back
on and everything that's gone between, and what it would
take to believe that that has set our country and
our planet on a better course. So I'm wondering, you
know that year twenty thirty, you'll be about twenty five
(19:45):
years old. Where do you hope to be then? And
what do you think it would take for us to
be able to have a conversation in twenty looking back
on the decade that started in and to believe that
that decade set us up for a better future. Well,
I think the first thing we have to do, although
it's not really related to my campaign, is to protect
(20:06):
the environment and to make sure that we have an
earth that still works and and can inhabit all these
people by I'm really concerned about that. And I know
some other young activists that exists in the climate space,
and there's a lot of pressure um to make sure
that they can do things that can help the environment
and to protect our world. We don't get another copy,
we don't get a replacement. It's not like you know
(20:27):
where I do stuff a books, where if a book
gets a copy staying on it, I could just buy
another book. It's not the same with climate activism. So
I want to make sure that those things are protected.
And I think a huge thing that's really important is
investing in public education and public educators. I have gone
to public school my whole life, and I think a
lot of people may see me as someone that has
greatly benefited from the public school system, which I have,
(20:49):
but I am not the experience, nor am I the
metric of so many other kids. Going to online school
is super hard for me, and the reason why I
am unnecessarily above average or more intel is through the
investment of my parents, not through the investment investment of
my schools um and I think it's super important that
we prioritize helping to mobilize kids to be curious, to
(21:10):
invest in their passions at a young age and not
wait until they grow up to pursue their interests or
their dreams, because these things can happen now, and the
earlier they happen, the more time for mistakes, the more
time to correct, and not feeling like you waited too
long to try something you really cared about. I'm definitely
(21:33):
going to hold in mind what Marley said, learn to
listen and listen to learn. The decade ahead will benefit
hugely if we can all work and live based on
that mantra. And this is a good time especially to
listen to the wisdom of younger generations. Marley mentioned the
power of what happens when adults asked her to join conversations,
and there could be a lot more of that. What
(21:54):
we must not do is make young advocates and activists
feel like they're shouting in to avoid. They have too
much at stake and they have too much wisdom to
offer for us to push them into cynicism by not
allowing them to be heard enough. There's no doubt that
when they are heard, we're all better off for it.
(22:14):
For more podcasts from I Heart Radio, visit the I
Heart Radio app, Apple Podcasts, or wherever you listen to
your favorite shows.
Hi, I'm Pete good Judge and this is the Deciding Decade.
A few weeks ago, we spoke with director John Chew
about the importance of diverse representation in film. We discussed
why it's so significant for younger generations to see themselves
(00:24):
in the images and the stories. Before there's a parallel
conversation to be had about what kids growing up and
learning about the world are reading. As they start diving
into books, are there characters who have similar backgrounds, characteristics,
and experiences to them? Do they see their families and
neighborhoods reflected in what they read? In short, to children
of every background see themselves on the page too often,
(00:47):
as you can imagine, the answer is no. But my
next guest, part of our series of conversations with youth leaders,
is a next generation advocate who has already done a
lot to change that. Marley Dias is a fifteen year
old activist and author. In November, she launched the hashtag
thousand Black Girl Books Drive with the goal of collecting
(01:10):
a thousand books featuring black female protagonists. She not only
collected and delivered one thousand, six hundred books within that
first year, but has also collected over twelve thousand to date.
Since then, she has served as an editor in residence
at l dot Com, published a book called Marley Das
Gets It Done and So Can You, was named a
Forbes thirty list for Media and Times twenty five most
(01:34):
Influential Teens, and was a speaker at the first night
of this year's Democratic National Convention. She's also an executive
producer for and host of Netflix's Bookmarks series, which features
children's books written by black authors about the black experience,
and each episode shows the books read aloud by black
leaders and activists. Welcome, Marley. It's so good to have
(01:56):
you with us today. Thank you for having me. I
really appreciate you joining and cited for the conversation that
we're going to have. Especially interested in learning more about
your great work with the book Drive and other projects.
But first I want to learn a little more about
your background. I understand that you grew up with a
love of reading, and I was curious what things you
read as you were growing up that had the biggest
(02:17):
impact on you and sparked that love of reading for you.
I'm only fifteen, so I don't have, you know, a
long history ahead of mirror behind me, but I've always
been a lifelong reader. My mom is a sociologist, and
even though she doesn't necessarily love to read, she's done
research and understand the importance of making sure that books
and curiosity is involved in every household and every family.
(02:39):
My dad's kind of like a magazine guy, so they
would always, you know, push me to do something that
they wish they had done as a kid, and I
think it really helped in the development of my vocabulary,
my understanding of my sense of self and of other people.
And one book that I really motivated me not only
to start the one thousand Black Girl Books campaign, but
hopefully read more and to encourage more kids to read
(03:00):
is Ground Girl Dreaming by Jacqueline Woodson. She is one
of the most prolific Black authors of all time. She's
now I consider her a family friend after five years
of one thousand Black Girl Books. But um, it's actually
a memoir about her life written in verse, and I
had never felt that there was really a story about
kind of the people that were the in between the
teacher's daughters, the bus driver's daughters, the people that don't
(03:22):
necessarily stand out as always needing help, but the people
that sometimes need the most, that they're not the most
privileged or resource, but they're not the least. UM and
kind of struggling with feeling like it's hard to ask
her help or hard to feel like you're exceptional, but
not to feel like you're terrible. UM. And I really
loved that book and I think it helped me a
lot in my own personal confidence and giving it to
(03:42):
other kids to read. So you described your your upbringing,
your parents as a big influence on your reading life,
And am I right that it was a conversation with
your mother that helped lead to you launching the Thousand
Black Girl Books initiative. Yes, it was. I was sitting
in a dinner with my mom. We used to go
to the dinner every single weekend an elementary school and
middle school, and she asked me, when I was in
(04:03):
sixth grade, what I wish I could have changed about
my elementary school experience, and I told her that I
really liked to read, and I thought my teachers did
a great job of like having us read interesting books,
but a lot of them did not have black girls
as the main character. And my fifth grade year, I
read three books, all of which had white boys and
their dogs as the main character. So I read Old Yeller,
(04:24):
I read Where the Red Fern Grows, and I read
the Shiloh series all about hunting dogs and blonde hair,
blue eyed white boy playing with them. So as much
as I like to read, I thought that there was
an issue with that, you know, kind of repeated pattern,
and she encouraged me to do something about it. And
how was that received when you were talking with classmates
or teachers or others who were introducing these books to you.
(04:45):
Did they see the issue right away or did you
feel like you had to be kind of explaining and
educating those around you on why you know that there's
more to childhood than white kids with their dogs. It
was difficult for me, It really was, because I was
nervous that my teacher would have thought that I didn't
believe in his teaching or the style of teaching. But um,
I actually didn't really even talk to him about it
when I launched the campaign because I was afraid that
(05:07):
he would hate me, or like once he started to
go viral, that he would be upset. But talking to
him within those six months where it started to grow,
he was very happy that, you know, someone was willing
to openly challenge something that he really thought was great,
and I think it really helped my teachers in my
school develop a new understanding. But for a lot of
kids who may have live in low income household or
(05:28):
have less resources and go to our public libraries, they
don't necessarily know what they don't have. So if they
are not having parents that are actively buying them diverse books,
they're not going to know that stories about black girls exist,
that we can hear about black people's experiences other than
the civil rights movement or an enslavement story. Um. And
I think it was super interesting to realize that so
many people are open to that idea, but they don't
(05:49):
know where these books exist, They have never read them,
they don't think that they're out there, and they normally
see the white narrative, associational narrative. So tell us about
the process, now you now, where do you go? Is
you decide that you want to collect these books? Are
you are you rooting around the shelves at home, are
you googling black girls leading in books on online? Or
(06:10):
you're pouring through the library. To take us through that process.
So the first thing I really had to do after
I kind of watched that can play with my mom
was I had to understand if this was just my
school's problem or if it was a like American school
problem or a world school problem. Um. And kind of
through more research and my mom making me sit and
watch documentaries and read graphs and all these things, we
(06:31):
understand that it's an issue that exists on a nationwide
and kind of global basis of not having diversity within books,
uh and particularly having mainly white characters or animals before
having stories of Latin X people, black people, LGBTQ people, um.
And it's kind of a repeated issue. So the first
thing I had to do is know that it's not
this my problem, but it's actually a problem that can
(06:52):
concern so many other students. So after doing that, I
used to pose with my mom and take pictures with
the Black Girl books that I had in my home,
and I would tell her please donate to and then
we have a location where people can donate books. And
it was super slow at the beginning. Then I had
some more media opportunities and I finally got to talk
and introduce myself to new people, and that's when books
started to come in and really floor and cover the
(07:14):
floors of our office building and stack up. What did
you find as you started going through all of these
titles that were coming your way, were their patterns that
surprised you? Yes, there's one very unique pattern that, uh
it kind of upset me a lot. Is that a
lot of these books are published by independent authors or
from indie or independent book publishing houses. And that we
(07:36):
notice that when you look at the people that are
really doing the work to prioritize diversity, it's normally people
making books in their houses. And if you are an
independent or smaller book publisher, you are less likely to
end up in curriculums because a lot of the times
school districts or school boards will have partnerships with a
specific company. So let's say it's a really really big
publishing company, They're more likely to get all of their
(07:58):
books from one publishing house, so they're not going to
the people that sell books in their trunk or the
people that are on page thirty of a list of
books to buy. So um, it's really difficult and in
frustrating to see that these people that are really putting
in the work to make sure that black gas stories
are out there don't get the credit or publicity as
many other authors. So who are your best partners in
(08:19):
in changing that? You've got these fantastic authors generating wonderful
books in literature. Who do you think is in the
best position to, uh to fill in that gap and
make sure these books reach a wider audience and get
onto that that shelf in the school library or the
public library or the classroom. Yeah, there's been really three
great organizations that have helped me in this work. Is Scholastic,
(08:40):
which my book is published with. And it was a
tough decision to figure out who I wanted to publish
a book with, because it was not only about the
experience of me, you know, having a book and being
able to secure things that I was interested in and traveling,
but also about how can I leave a mark that
exists beyond you know, an interview which I would normally do,
something that will exist long, long long after all these things. Um.
(09:01):
And one way we're really able to incorporate and to
prioritize independent stories was in the back of my book,
there's a list of five hundred books where black girls
are the main characters. So it's kind of like a
scavenger hunt to find more and to find more um.
And most of these books are not published by Scholastics,
so they are using their platform and putting me out
there in order to promote so many other authors that
(09:23):
they are not necessarily reaping the benefits of putting their
name out there. UM. And I'd say the second one
is the American Library Association, and all of those chapters
kind of count as my third one. Librarians are the best.
They're actually they don't get nearly enough credit in this country,
and they are so supportive of me online and they
can continue to show my interviews, my books and to
listen to the things that I recommend, and I feel
(09:44):
like I really have a space in their classrooms. That
makes you super happy. It sounds like you're not only
(10:08):
an ambassador for representation in the publishing world, but you're
an ambassador for reading among your peers. How do your
classmates and peers think about what you're doing and how's
it been received? So that's a that's a tough question
because I think there's definitely a mix of responses a
lot of the times, because I have a larger social
(10:28):
media following and they don't see me having to count
books by hand or do excelf spreads. You's putting people's
titles and putting their names in, taking pictures for hours
and hours at a time, you know, meeting eight hundred people,
not now but obviously, but like you know, standing in
long lines. Um, people don't always see that. And they
get to see when you meet a famous person, or
when you get to travel to a country, or when
(10:51):
you get your name and a headline of something, or
when you get a Netflix show, and they don't understand
always kind of the harder work that it takes and
how I am a lot of the times when I
enter a space, I'm the youngest, I'm the first, I'm
the only, and how that can definitely be an intimidating
experience for me. Um, nothing I nothing I do necessarily
(11:11):
just comes naturally to me. That I obviously have some
abilities that other people don't have when it comes to
the way I speak or the success of my campaign,
But I still have to put in so much work
to keep these things alive and to keep this dream
of the importance of literacy, the importance of change making
within my life and my community. So for some people,
they're super, super proud and they understand that maybe this
(11:33):
is why she didn't come to this, or maybe this
is why she missed out on that. Um. But other
people just see it as, Oh, she got famous for
this thing, and now she gets to travel and do
all these amazing things. But UM, I think it's it's
more the positive than the negatives. But the negatives don't
bother me too much. I gotta tell you, this doesn't
sound wildly different than the experience of becoming visible when
you run for office. I wonder if you ever decided
(11:56):
to do that, you'd have a huge head start. So
tell me who one of the biggest things you think
are different for someone who sees themselves on the page
a black girl, for example, opening up a book where
the protagonist is a black girl, how does she see
herself differently? How does she see the text differently? In
other words, how do you explain why this matters so much?
(12:18):
So I get this question all the time from teachers
and actually from a lot of students. Uh, And I
think one of the reasons that it helps build confidence. Um,
many white people may see it as a given to
feel like, oh, I know all the experiences of what
happened in Europe and what happened from these time periods
to people that look like me, and it feels like
something that they don't have to fight for or necessarily
(12:38):
account for. Check out and make sure. Um. And the
reason why we don't necessarily have like a White History
Month and things of that sort is because it's a
given within this country that white history is told. UM.
So I think for a lot of people, I always
want to make sure that they understand that their narratives
are not something that necessarily has ever been put under
like in the back burner or we'll just have to
(12:59):
say of it for this time that, um. The experiences,
the culture, the the the things that they love and
prioritize are put at the front. And it can help
so many young black people to feel like, oh my gosh,
my hair is cool, or some person who said this
thing to me, and now I hear it's happening in
a book and I know I'm not alone in that struggle,
or hearing that their accomplishments and goals are achieva because
(13:21):
a young black person did it too. Or they see
black astronauts, they see black archaeologists. Um And although race
is not everything, and I get that common a lot
too is that why does race matter? But it does
affect the way we see the world and does affect
our experiences and our access. And by showing to kids
that you have the potential to be great, uh, including
your race, not regardless of your race, you can do
(13:42):
amazing things, you know. I saw you once to describe
your campaign in a way I thought was really interesting
and important. In your words, he said that the campaign
is about creating space for all rather than pushing one
group out. And that really got my attention because I
think when it comes to struggles for racial equity and representation,
(14:02):
there is often a sense of pushback among people, usually
white people, who feel like they have something to lose
in a context of of greater equality. And I wonder
what you say to people who seem to have this
this fear that something is somehow being taken away from
them when everyone is fully represented. Have you encountered that
(14:24):
and what other ways have you found for dealing with that.
I definitely have encountered that or witnessed other activists for
people I care about encounter that, and it definitely kind
of deeply frustrates me that I feel as though if
you have an issue with someone else gaining rights or
gaining equity or the ability. That is a fundamental and
ethical problem that you have. That's not the problem of
(14:46):
anybody else. And it and when it comes to especially
in my library where I had five books I read
in one year that had white boys, is the main character.
That's simply taking out to and adding in two more
diverse books. You know, it not necessarily saying that we
are never going to learn about white people's experiences, We're
never going to learn about boys experiences, but we're gonna
(15:07):
add some more. We're gonna mix it up. We're going
to include people who are what we normally see and
people that we don't normally see um. And I think
people need to understand that there's always a potential for
change and that we don't need to see things as gordon,
as bad, but rather as new, um and exciting. And
I think a lot of people are not interested in
the potential for greatness for all and people need to
(15:27):
lose that fear and to understand that there's so much
that can be gained from understanding and listening to other
people and not much to lose from that experience. So
we're in an extraordinary moment in American history, a black
woman for the first time ever. A matter of fact,
the first time a woman ever as well as a
black woman as well as an American and South Asian descent,
(15:49):
has been elected vice president of the the United States. What
what does that mean to you? They meant a lot
to me, And I think it's super exciting because, as
she said in her speech, that this is an opportunity
for so many other young girls to see themselves and
and feel really empowered and motivated to be great and
to achieve things that no one else has done. I
have spent a lot of time being the first and youngest,
(16:10):
and I can imagine the fears that she may have
had um and not even to that level of definitely
not being vice president but but vice president elect. But
I definitely understand the bravery that she's taken and the
steps that she's really kind of had to do that
so many people have had negative and adverse feelings about,
and it means a lot to me. It's super cool,
and it's really amazing to think that now that I'm
(16:32):
a teenager and this didn't happen like when I was
UM four or five, when Obama was elected, that I
now can remember this moment and see the election, to
be a part of this and to encourage my parents
to vote and to help them educate themselves. Uh is
something that's super awesome because now that I'm a teenager,
this will stay with me rather than when I was
super super young and I didn't know the significance of
(16:53):
some of the historical events that happened. So in your book,
Marley Dayas Gets It Done, you offer tips for paying
it forward, and the book shows young people things that
they can do to galvanize their own power for the
common good. Uh. Now, I'm I'm what you would call
an elder millennial. I'm in the older range of that
age group. I'm guessing a lot of our listeners are
(17:14):
probably a little bit older than you. Um, but I'm curious,
what do you recommend to us? How can all of
us do something with our strengths to make positive change.
I think one thing you can do, and it's simple
for everybody, is to learn to listen and really listen
to learn. My mom voices that to me that it's
super important to take a second to understand that. Okay,
(17:35):
I may think I know so much about one thing,
but what new perspectives. Can I be a part of
How can I be that person that someone says, this
person supported me and now I'm able to do great
things they listen to me even when I was struggling,
And to try our best to show empathy and compassion
for others. UM. I always believe that being hopeful and
being optimistic something that's super important. And I find that
(17:56):
especially adults that have more experience of watching things go
really well and go really bad or not always this optimistic.
And I feel like I've seen things go really well
and really bad and and still try my best to
be optimistic. So sharing in that hope and and spreading optimism,
whether that's on social media, and trying your best to
educate others about the potential for great things to happen, UM,
(18:17):
And to always kind of look to the horizon that
there is potential for greatness in everyday life and in
everyday people. That's really good advice. What what are your
greatest sources of optimism and and hope? How do you
replenish that well when you need to find more reasons
to feel good about the future. Well, I think one
of the great moments of optimism for me is when
(18:40):
adults invite me to come talk about how I feel.
I think for a lot of teenagers, they feel like
adults don't understand, they lack the compassion for teenage curiosity
or wild ideas or tenacity. Um, And when I get
opportunities to have conversations with adults, it means a lot
to me because I don't always like that feeling that
I am only going to be able to appeal to
(19:00):
one audience, or that there's only one type of person
that's going to want to hear me speak. But UM,
it's really awesome when I get those chances. And I
hope that as I grow older and I become a
person that can vote and can be cypically engaged in
new ways, that these kind of platforms and conversations continue
to grow for me and other young people. So this
podcast is called The Deciding Decade because I like thinking
(19:22):
about what the twenties are going to be, like, what
it would mean for them to go well or for
them to go poorly, and what's at stake when we
get to the year twenty thirty and we're looking back
on and everything that's gone between, and what it would
take to believe that that has set our country and
our planet on a better course. So I'm wondering, you
know that year twenty thirty, you'll be about twenty five
(19:45):
years old. Where do you hope to be then? And
what do you think it would take for us to
be able to have a conversation in twenty looking back
on the decade that started in and to believe that
that decade set us up for a better future. Well,
I think the first thing we have to do, although
it's not really related to my campaign, is to protect
(20:06):
the environment and to make sure that we have an
earth that still works and and can inhabit all these
people by I'm really concerned about that. And I know
some other young activists that exists in the climate space,
and there's a lot of pressure um to make sure
that they can do things that can help the environment
and to protect our world. We don't get another copy,
we don't get a replacement. It's not like you know
(20:27):
where I do stuff a books, where if a book
gets a copy staying on it, I could just buy
another book. It's not the same with climate activism. So
I want to make sure that those things are protected.
And I think a huge thing that's really important is
investing in public education and public educators. I have gone
to public school my whole life, and I think a
lot of people may see me as someone that has
greatly benefited from the public school system, which I have,
(20:49):
but I am not the experience, nor am I the
metric of so many other kids. Going to online school
is super hard for me, and the reason why I
am unnecessarily above average or more intel is through the
investment of my parents, not through the investment investment of
my schools um and I think it's super important that
we prioritize helping to mobilize kids to be curious, to
(21:10):
invest in their passions at a young age and not
wait until they grow up to pursue their interests or
their dreams, because these things can happen now, and the
earlier they happen, the more time for mistakes, the more
time to correct, and not feeling like you waited too
long to try something you really cared about. I'm definitely
(21:33):
going to hold in mind what Marley said, learn to
listen and listen to learn. The decade ahead will benefit
hugely if we can all work and live based on
that mantra. And this is a good time especially to
listen to the wisdom of younger generations. Marley mentioned the
power of what happens when adults asked her to join conversations,
and there could be a lot more of that. What
(21:54):
we must not do is make young advocates and activists
feel like they're shouting in to avoid. They have too
much at stake and they have too much wisdom to
offer for us to push them into cynicism by not
allowing them to be heard enough. There's no doubt that
when they are heard, we're all better off for it.
(22:14):
For more podcasts from I Heart Radio, visit the I
Heart Radio app, Apple Podcasts, or wherever you listen to
your favorite shows.
Popular Podcasts
On Purpose with Jay Shetty
I’m Jay Shetty host of On Purpose the worlds #1 Mental Health podcast and I’m so grateful you found us. I started this podcast 5 years ago to invite you into conversations and workshops that are designed to help make you happier, healthier and more healed. I believe that when you (yes you) feel seen, heard and understood you’re able to deal with relationship struggles, work challenges and life’s ups and downs with more ease and grace. I interview experts, celebrities, thought leaders and athletes so that we can grow our mindset, build better habits and uncover a side of them we’ve never seen before. New episodes every Monday and Friday. Your support means the world to me and I don’t take it for granted — click the follow button and leave a review to help us spread the love with On Purpose. I can’t wait for you to listen to your first or 500th episode!
Stuff You Should Know
If you've ever wanted to know about champagne, satanism, the Stonewall Uprising, chaos theory, LSD, El Nino, true crime and Rosa Parks, then look no further. Josh and Chuck have you covered.
Dateline NBC
Current and classic episodes, featuring compelling true-crime mysteries, powerful documentaries and in-depth investigations. Follow now to get the latest episodes of Dateline NBC completely free, or subscribe to Dateline Premium for ad-free listening and exclusive bonus content: DatelinePremium.com