October 30, 2020 • 20 mins
What does the political landscape look like today for young people who are watching the profound dysfunction in our highest office? As part of our special series with youth leaders, Pete talks with René Otero, the breakout star from the documentary Boys State, about how his participation in the American Legion's annual program about government left him disappointed with campaigns, the power of protesting, and why his generation is more cynical about the country.
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Speaker 1 (00:05):
Hi. I'm Pete Buddh Judge, and this is the deciding decade.
As someone who became very politically engaged in college, I've
been thinking about how different it might be for young
people growing up in the Trump era who were interested
in civic engagement. I think about my own experience during
the Bush era. It didn't feel like the world was
(00:26):
on fire in the same way it does today, but
at the time I did viscerally feel what was going
on with our international relations, are economy, and worried about
what our future would look like. What does it look
like today for young people who are watching the profound
dysfunction in our highest office. I'm particularly curious about what
the landscape looks like to those who have participated in
(00:48):
or been shaped by the enormous wave of protests and
grassroots activism that's taken place over the last few months.
Does that push them towards or away from government? Or
do they think about it in a different way? Hireland
Today is the second of our sub series of brief
episodes where we are featuring young next generation leaders who
(01:10):
are not only going to play key roles in shaping
the decade ahead, but already making a big impact through
their activism today. Reneo Tero was featured in Boys State,
a documentary that follows the Texas teenagers who attend the
American Legions annual Boys State Conference, a program that teaches
young men about government through a week long simulation of
electoral politics. It was filmed in two thousand eighteen, when
(01:32):
Renee was in high school, and it's worth noting that
a year later, nineteen, he placed first in extemporaneous speaking
at the National Speech and Debate Association's National Tournament, becoming
his school district's first national champion and the first African
American to win the title. And the speech that got
him that title was entitled should political leaders focus first
on political empowerment or economic equality? Which is one of
(01:55):
the things I'm looking forward to talking to him about.
Renee is now a student at the University of Texas Austin,
where he has double majoring in International relations and Black Studies.
He's an undergraduate research fellow at UT Center for the
Study of Racing Democracy and on UT Speech Team. Really
great to see you and thanks for taking time to
get together. Thank you so much. So, you know, like
(02:15):
a lot of Americans, I got to know you through
this film Boy State, which follows you and in a
number of other young men through this this leadership program
in Texas, and you stand out from the beginning. And
one of the reasons you stand out is you're clearly
different from a lot of the people around you, and
you own that and you live into that. But that
also makes it complicated. Can you just talk about what
(02:36):
it felt like? You're in this world of students from
all over Texas, pretty conservative group, overwhelmingly white group. You
wouldn't be there if you were not a talented, ambitious
young man. What was going through your mind as you
first started getting to know the people who are going
to be your peers for that week. Well, I will
say that everything about the entire experience was just a
(02:56):
pleasant little surprise for me because I didn't do any
research at idea what was going on. I guess my
initial feelings were, of course, very anxious. Uh My mother
was very much, so vocal about the fact that I
was different and that they could possibly lead to some complications.
And I was a d percent prepare just you know,
shut up and you stick it throughout the entire week.
(03:18):
But I think it was by the time that I
realized that, you know, I couldn't couldn't stand to hear
somebody lies in the speeches, and um, there was a
camera that that kind of emboldened me to take the
step that I did to realize that, okay, cool, this
difference makes me, uh stand out, but now it's a
perfect opportunity for me to weaponize it. And what did
(03:38):
that mean in you're okay, So what do you mean
to weaponize your difference? And who are you weaponizing it against?
And who you're weaponizing it for the best part about
difference is that you stick out like a sore thoumb
You're going to draw attention to you either way. So
you just depends on how you're going to draw that
attention to yourself. I always find that being a black
and queer person that you know, they always are gonna
(04:00):
watch you twice as hard, which means that they're listening
to what you're saying regardless. And so I get I
delivered a speech that was very true to my heart,
and I tried to I tried to weaponize my difference
in the sense that I argue for by pars and ship,
I argue for this desire to you know, follow the
other side, using kind of what they didn't expect out
of me to get the rise out of the audience.
(04:22):
Interesting and you can see, I mean, one of the
things that makes the film so dynamic is watching you
have this effect on your audience. I can see in
your eyes that you're realizing the effect that your power
is having on you write your ability to guide an
audience to a certain place. I'm wondering what you take
from that experience, you know, I'm almost thinking of some
of these like a sci fi plot where somebody lives,
(04:44):
you know, a decade and an alternate reality, and then
they come right back to where they were, right Like,
all of this plays out over the course of a week,
this dramatic set of experiences. You become the state party chair,
which is a very important role in this simulation. I
gotta tell you, I'm watching you and your peers that
I feel is invested and you're simulated elections as I
did in real ones that I've been involved in, and
(05:04):
then a week later you back to your life. Did
it change you? Absolutely? Um? I walked into boys State
wanted to be a senator. I thought that was the
perfect you know, retirement plan. You know, I didn't necessarily
have to go to school for a particular thing. Um.
And I hear the pension is great, um. And so
that was kind of what was motivating me when I
went to Boys State and I actually ran for the Senate.
(05:27):
I lost my very first few elections, and that's kind
of where I ended up in the position where I
was doing state party chair, and my entire plans changed.
My view of politics changed because I prepared to engage
it from Congress. Now I was dealing with the nitty
gritty electoral stuff. It was kind of humbling experience. I
really enjoyed the fact that I was responsible for so much,
(05:50):
but it also made me realize what that power could do.
There's a whole bunch of seventeen year old boys, and
I saw them replicate some of the same dirty electoral
and racist tactics that we have seen play out on
the screen for years. I mean, why wouldn't they the
seventeen they haven't had any other political experience, But now
(06:12):
that politics is frame from outside of this realm of respectability,
to this um one on one mud slinging show, they
were able to reproduce that, and I realized that is
the inevitable future I was going to face in politics.
So I had to find a way to engage politics
from a third party perspective, something separate from electoral politics,
(06:36):
but away that I could still act on my passion.
So I think a lot of people, especially people are
involved in politics, who see a leader of your capacity
emerging and being shaped, hope very much that you would
run for office. But you're saying no, that you walked
away with out of this program which is designed to
make you want to be more involved in politics. Right?
Can you walk us through that distinction? What's the difference
(06:57):
between walking away from the world walking away from involvement,
which I think it sounds like you're not doing. But
how can how can you walk away from a political
process that's such an important part of how the world
is shaped? You know? For one, I think we do
this unfair thing where reframe civic engagement through just getting
out to the polls politics, and that completely ignores another
(07:19):
very important part of the functioning system. I call it
the knowledge gap, because you can't ask me to advocate
for people to get out to the polls when we
have long waiting lines. Are you're asking me to tell
the single mother of multiple children, that she shouldn't work
and that she shouldn't be voting and that she's wrong
for not doing so. And that was something that I
(07:41):
was trying to, you know, conflict I was trying to
I was trying to understand. I was like, did I
have to stay within this voting realm? And so for me,
I didn't know what it would look like to be
involved without engaging in electoral politics until about a few
months ago. I've been engaging with protests, you know, and actively.
I've seen that protest turnover to some resolutions within our
(08:04):
city to defund the police, a necessary step. So for me,
I feel like involvement now is taking a look at
the system, understanding what is fundamentally flawed with it, and
then protesting, engaging in some form of civic responsibility because
now you have the responsibility and the power to fix it.
(08:26):
But how do you get that power if it's not
through the polls? Well, what's your kind of theory of change?
My theory of change right now is uh, I guess
shock at all when these demonstrations for major change is
happening every single time, you know, we're telling you what
needs to happen. And so I'm just trying to figure
out what kind of demonstrations are visceral enough for the
(08:50):
public to recognize that. H So you're an undergraduate. I'm
teaching undergraduates right now for the first time, and it
is fascinating for me, although it entails something I don't
like doing, which is acknowledging that I'm no longer the
same generation as college students. But there's almost exactly twenty
years between me and you and most of the students
that I encounter. And so I think back to when
(09:11):
I was in college, and at the time, especially pre
nine eleven, the dominant mood for my generation of young people,
I think was irony. We we built up irony as
a kind of defense because if you seem totally sincere
and committed to anything, whether it was a political agenda
or just a belief or an idea, it made you
(09:32):
vulnerable to being made fun of or to being disappointed,
and so people developed these layers of irony. Maybe that's
just also part of being young. But what I sense
in your generation of students is that there's a kind
of earnestness compared to when I was a student, and
also at the same time, a kind of cynicism, And
you write in this very powerful New York Times op
(09:55):
ed about your experience, you describe yourself as as cynical
in many ways. You said, I've own increasingly cynical about
this system itself. And yet what you're describing is definitely
not walking away from from everything. So how do you
make sure the cynicism doesn't mean just giving up on
the systems that that clearly need to change and won't
change on their own. I will that feelings say that
our generation is more cynical and definitely much more earnest
(10:18):
because we're now inheriting a country at a very strange time.
We are not like previous generations where we have twenty
forty years before behind us that allows us to understand
that this system, you know, could work for us. We
don't have that. We've only seen failure. Additionally, I do
believe that my cynicism is what fuels me, and I
(10:39):
think it's because we have a toxic view of the
word cynic. We believe that cynic stops just in the
thought space. I think negatively about something, so I'm going
to do nothing about it. That's completely wrong. You just
need to have I guess enough criticism built up within
you to realize that's what's going to motivate me to
(11:00):
actually makes them real change. And so I kind of
see this thing where we believe that patriotism and cynicism
have to be devoid from one another. But if you
know that this great thing that you love so much has,
you know, a fatal flaw, wouldn't you raise a stink
enough to make people want to fix it. So cynicism
(11:22):
is nothing to be scared at all. Interesting, It's just
a very natural first step to the consciousness of the public.
So now this makes me curious about what you mean
when you say patriotism. It sounds like you're not talking
about nationalism. You're talking about something you might identify with,
even though you're very clear eyed about the weaknesses and
the flaws of the system. So what does it mean
(11:43):
to you to be patriotic? Oh, to be a patriot
means to love the country, and with love comes accountability.
Patriotism was reframed after nine eleven to being that the
United States is some actor that isn't culpable for any
of its actions because it's always actively defending us. But
with that kind of toxic mentality. You never understand the
(12:04):
ways that America can hurt people, and therefore we kind
of get stuck up in our own enamored relationship with
this country that we don't wish to see it any better.
Patriotism also requires civic engagement and people over country. For
you to love something so much but never act upon
(12:24):
that love makes me wonder is that actual love. It's
kind of like what my mama always said. If it's not,
love is lust, and patriotism is like a lust for
this country, and cynicism is a love for it. So
how hopeful are you about the possibility of people to change?
This isn't just about beating people, but there's also some
(12:47):
folks you're never going to reach. I think about this
when I go on Fox News rightly, So, so, how
do your debat or right? And part of debate is
about winning, but part of real debate it's about persuasion.
How do you square that in your account of where
we're heading? So I think the best way I think
that I can incorporate this idea where you know, people
who aren't necessarily as progressive existing in a space where
(13:08):
we desperately need some major change, because like we have
to remember that people change and it's up to the
institution to react and in order to do that. I
think elections, if for this one, is like pretty interesting
because it's kind of like this idea that we are
choosing who we want to pressure, and an election allows
for the democratic process for everyone to first have that opinion.
(13:30):
And then when you allow the pressure to uh to
enter in for you know, necessary change, um like abolished
eyes or to protect black and brown bodies in the
streets from police executions, is when we start to see
the special interests of the community play through. And it's
kind of this this concept of the beloved community. You're right,
maybe it's not so much about defeating one another or
(13:52):
reaching one another, but rather protecting and nurturing your ideology.
I believe that it's up to communities of color, where
they oftentimes you know, are having are being gaslighted about
the situation that they are in. It is up to
them to you know, advocate into and too and have
a voice. In doing so, they are creating community connections
(14:13):
within one another, which ultimately is just better for the
future of the advocacy of that space. And then they're
also humanizing the struggle and I think a lot of
a lot of this idea of what we need to
change and what we need to fix, we keep so
much in this abstract thought space that we forget that
there's a very human need for it at the end
of the day. So ultimately we just need to amplify
(14:37):
the fact that there's a human need for it. So
what's going on with your peers? I mean, do you
(14:59):
do feel like your generation is going to be more
active or do you feel like I know, I always
felt like I was kind of a minority in terms
of interest in politics and public affairs and civic things.
It wasn't exactly cool. Your generation seems to be kind
of more active and engaged, But maybe that's from the
outside looking in. How would you describe it, and how
does it feel on campus and with people you spend
(15:19):
time with. Maybe you're right, maybe it's just on the
outside looking get. I think the brilliant thing about social
media is that it connects so many of us to
have very important conversations and discourse. But oftentimes social media
looks like a final resting round for a lot of folks. Activism,
you know, performative stuff Like I was very upset a
(15:41):
few months ago when the Blackout Tuesday, and I saw
a whole bunch of people like do it, and I
was like, you realized the whole point of Blackout Tuesday
was to clog the feed so there wasn't any information
about Black Lives matter. But you have your head so
wrapped up, and what can I do performatively? You don't
think completely through your actions. So what I'm saying is
(16:02):
with my peers, I do feel as if there's a
major sense of engagement. However, I do not think they're
listening to the right voices because the Internet creates such
a fantastic echo chamber because if you spoken to one
black person, we would have told you why you should
have not engaged in the Blackout Tuesday post. So so
in that let's take up the topic of well intentioned
(16:22):
white progressive because you know, I think part of what's
given the people a lot of hope in especially the
response to the murder of George Floyd, is that this
has been a very multi racial response and awakening. But
of course the experience of this activism is radically different
if you're actually black or a person of color, then
if you're a white American trying to figure out how
(16:43):
to be an ally how do you kind of resolve
or navigate these tensions among your own peers. It's it's
it really just feels like the main disconnect between you know,
everyone is just the knowledge gap is that the violence
and oppression that people experience is very much so preferential
and like to the individual right, like the experience of
(17:04):
queer folks is not going to be the experience of
black folks, especially black queer folks. Again, you may understand that,
like we all live and leave leave different lives, but
I don't think people genuinely internalize that. You genuinely cannot
understand why I face the things I do and how
I feel about the things that I do in my
(17:25):
perception about that. And I think that is of such
a major um step is just internalizing that difference, also
having real empathy for um, you know, the communities. Is
it because you don't believe us when we are talking
about how to solve our oppression. Is it because there's
something about me that isn't you know, convincing is or
(17:49):
is it because you're trying to preserve your comfort? Either way,
those are your three choices. The only way that I
think you're acting on empathy is when we begin to
see true change. The other thing I really want to
ask you about is your perspective on what success looks
like in the medium term. Like this decade is clearly
going to decide so much for our country. So a
(18:10):
decade from now, you're approaching the age of thirty and
we're looking back on the ties. What would have to
happen for us to be able to say that the
ties got us toward where our country needs to go,
and what would be the work remaining to be done.
I think the one tangible marker I think of success
for is that we've abolished a two party system and
(18:33):
it made it impossible the campaign under a binary well
and replaced it with lud maybe parliamentary system. You know
what I'm saying, require coalitions because we got to start
reminding like he's not like about this election. Guess this
election stocks it feels really bad right now, but this
is a great opportunity for us to remind our politicians
(18:55):
that they have to earn our vote again. And because
if we have coal missions and if we are electing
representatives to then grant our head of state the power
it's a clear reminder that we are putting you in
this job. Wait, just like Marvin Gay's dad, I brought
you into this world and I can take you out.
(19:21):
I get how difficult it is to expect optimism from
a generation that has grown up with some of the
greatest struggles in our modern history. The post nine eleven Wars,
the two tho eight crash and its aftermath, the Trump presidency,
climate change, you name it. I remember the sense of
hope that came for so many my age with the
two thousand election and President Obama, and then the dramatic
(19:42):
gains and setbacks that followed. But Renee speaks for many
his age who reached voting age during the Trump era
and feel that they have seen only failure from policymakers
in charge of trying to make their lives better. I'm
glad to see that for someone like Renee, naive optimism
is out of the question, but so is dison agement.
And I'm glad to see his generation insisting on being heard.
(20:07):
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Heart Radio app, Apple Podcasts, or wherever you listen to
your favorite shows.
Hi. I'm Pete Buddh Judge, and this is the deciding decade.
As someone who became very politically engaged in college, I've
been thinking about how different it might be for young
people growing up in the Trump era who were interested
in civic engagement. I think about my own experience during
the Bush era. It didn't feel like the world was
(00:26):
on fire in the same way it does today, but
at the time I did viscerally feel what was going
on with our international relations, are economy, and worried about
what our future would look like. What does it look
like today for young people who are watching the profound
dysfunction in our highest office. I'm particularly curious about what
the landscape looks like to those who have participated in
(00:48):
or been shaped by the enormous wave of protests and
grassroots activism that's taken place over the last few months.
Does that push them towards or away from government? Or
do they think about it in a different way? Hireland
Today is the second of our sub series of brief
episodes where we are featuring young next generation leaders who
(01:10):
are not only going to play key roles in shaping
the decade ahead, but already making a big impact through
their activism today. Reneo Tero was featured in Boys State,
a documentary that follows the Texas teenagers who attend the
American Legions annual Boys State Conference, a program that teaches
young men about government through a week long simulation of
electoral politics. It was filmed in two thousand eighteen, when
(01:32):
Renee was in high school, and it's worth noting that
a year later, nineteen, he placed first in extemporaneous speaking
at the National Speech and Debate Association's National Tournament, becoming
his school district's first national champion and the first African
American to win the title. And the speech that got
him that title was entitled should political leaders focus first
on political empowerment or economic equality? Which is one of
(01:55):
the things I'm looking forward to talking to him about.
Renee is now a student at the University of Texas Austin,
where he has double majoring in International relations and Black Studies.
He's an undergraduate research fellow at UT Center for the
Study of Racing Democracy and on UT Speech Team. Really
great to see you and thanks for taking time to
get together. Thank you so much. So, you know, like
(02:15):
a lot of Americans, I got to know you through
this film Boy State, which follows you and in a
number of other young men through this this leadership program
in Texas, and you stand out from the beginning. And
one of the reasons you stand out is you're clearly
different from a lot of the people around you, and
you own that and you live into that. But that
also makes it complicated. Can you just talk about what
(02:36):
it felt like? You're in this world of students from
all over Texas, pretty conservative group, overwhelmingly white group. You
wouldn't be there if you were not a talented, ambitious
young man. What was going through your mind as you
first started getting to know the people who are going
to be your peers for that week. Well, I will
say that everything about the entire experience was just a
(02:56):
pleasant little surprise for me because I didn't do any
research at idea what was going on. I guess my
initial feelings were, of course, very anxious. Uh My mother
was very much, so vocal about the fact that I
was different and that they could possibly lead to some complications.
And I was a d percent prepare just you know,
shut up and you stick it throughout the entire week.
(03:18):
But I think it was by the time that I
realized that, you know, I couldn't couldn't stand to hear
somebody lies in the speeches, and um, there was a
camera that that kind of emboldened me to take the
step that I did to realize that, okay, cool, this
difference makes me, uh stand out, but now it's a
perfect opportunity for me to weaponize it. And what did
(03:38):
that mean in you're okay, So what do you mean
to weaponize your difference? And who are you weaponizing it against?
And who you're weaponizing it for the best part about
difference is that you stick out like a sore thoumb
You're going to draw attention to you either way. So
you just depends on how you're going to draw that
attention to yourself. I always find that being a black
and queer person that you know, they always are gonna
(04:00):
watch you twice as hard, which means that they're listening
to what you're saying regardless. And so I get I
delivered a speech that was very true to my heart,
and I tried to I tried to weaponize my difference
in the sense that I argue for by pars and ship,
I argue for this desire to you know, follow the
other side, using kind of what they didn't expect out
of me to get the rise out of the audience.
(04:22):
Interesting and you can see, I mean, one of the
things that makes the film so dynamic is watching you
have this effect on your audience. I can see in
your eyes that you're realizing the effect that your power
is having on you write your ability to guide an
audience to a certain place. I'm wondering what you take
from that experience, you know, I'm almost thinking of some
of these like a sci fi plot where somebody lives,
(04:44):
you know, a decade and an alternate reality, and then
they come right back to where they were, right Like,
all of this plays out over the course of a week,
this dramatic set of experiences. You become the state party chair,
which is a very important role in this simulation. I
gotta tell you, I'm watching you and your peers that
I feel is invested and you're simulated elections as I
did in real ones that I've been involved in, and
(05:04):
then a week later you back to your life. Did
it change you? Absolutely? Um? I walked into boys State
wanted to be a senator. I thought that was the
perfect you know, retirement plan. You know, I didn't necessarily
have to go to school for a particular thing. Um.
And I hear the pension is great, um. And so
that was kind of what was motivating me when I
went to Boys State and I actually ran for the Senate.
(05:27):
I lost my very first few elections, and that's kind
of where I ended up in the position where I
was doing state party chair, and my entire plans changed.
My view of politics changed because I prepared to engage
it from Congress. Now I was dealing with the nitty
gritty electoral stuff. It was kind of humbling experience. I
really enjoyed the fact that I was responsible for so much,
(05:50):
but it also made me realize what that power could do.
There's a whole bunch of seventeen year old boys, and
I saw them replicate some of the same dirty electoral
and racist tactics that we have seen play out on
the screen for years. I mean, why wouldn't they the
seventeen they haven't had any other political experience, But now
(06:12):
that politics is frame from outside of this realm of respectability,
to this um one on one mud slinging show, they
were able to reproduce that, and I realized that is
the inevitable future I was going to face in politics.
So I had to find a way to engage politics
from a third party perspective, something separate from electoral politics,
(06:36):
but away that I could still act on my passion.
So I think a lot of people, especially people are
involved in politics, who see a leader of your capacity
emerging and being shaped, hope very much that you would
run for office. But you're saying no, that you walked
away with out of this program which is designed to
make you want to be more involved in politics. Right?
Can you walk us through that distinction? What's the difference
(06:57):
between walking away from the world walking away from involvement,
which I think it sounds like you're not doing. But
how can how can you walk away from a political
process that's such an important part of how the world
is shaped? You know? For one, I think we do
this unfair thing where reframe civic engagement through just getting
out to the polls politics, and that completely ignores another
(07:19):
very important part of the functioning system. I call it
the knowledge gap, because you can't ask me to advocate
for people to get out to the polls when we
have long waiting lines. Are you're asking me to tell
the single mother of multiple children, that she shouldn't work
and that she shouldn't be voting and that she's wrong
for not doing so. And that was something that I
(07:41):
was trying to, you know, conflict I was trying to
I was trying to understand. I was like, did I
have to stay within this voting realm? And so for me,
I didn't know what it would look like to be
involved without engaging in electoral politics until about a few
months ago. I've been engaging with protests, you know, and actively.
I've seen that protest turnover to some resolutions within our
(08:04):
city to defund the police, a necessary step. So for me,
I feel like involvement now is taking a look at
the system, understanding what is fundamentally flawed with it, and
then protesting, engaging in some form of civic responsibility because
now you have the responsibility and the power to fix it.
(08:26):
But how do you get that power if it's not
through the polls? Well, what's your kind of theory of change?
My theory of change right now is uh, I guess
shock at all when these demonstrations for major change is
happening every single time, you know, we're telling you what
needs to happen. And so I'm just trying to figure
out what kind of demonstrations are visceral enough for the
(08:50):
public to recognize that. H So you're an undergraduate. I'm
teaching undergraduates right now for the first time, and it
is fascinating for me, although it entails something I don't
like doing, which is acknowledging that I'm no longer the
same generation as college students. But there's almost exactly twenty
years between me and you and most of the students
that I encounter. And so I think back to when
(09:11):
I was in college, and at the time, especially pre
nine eleven, the dominant mood for my generation of young people,
I think was irony. We we built up irony as
a kind of defense because if you seem totally sincere
and committed to anything, whether it was a political agenda
or just a belief or an idea, it made you
(09:32):
vulnerable to being made fun of or to being disappointed,
and so people developed these layers of irony. Maybe that's
just also part of being young. But what I sense
in your generation of students is that there's a kind
of earnestness compared to when I was a student, and
also at the same time, a kind of cynicism, And
you write in this very powerful New York Times op
(09:55):
ed about your experience, you describe yourself as as cynical
in many ways. You said, I've own increasingly cynical about
this system itself. And yet what you're describing is definitely
not walking away from from everything. So how do you
make sure the cynicism doesn't mean just giving up on
the systems that that clearly need to change and won't
change on their own. I will that feelings say that
our generation is more cynical and definitely much more earnest
(10:18):
because we're now inheriting a country at a very strange time.
We are not like previous generations where we have twenty
forty years before behind us that allows us to understand
that this system, you know, could work for us. We
don't have that. We've only seen failure. Additionally, I do
believe that my cynicism is what fuels me, and I
(10:39):
think it's because we have a toxic view of the
word cynic. We believe that cynic stops just in the
thought space. I think negatively about something, so I'm going
to do nothing about it. That's completely wrong. You just
need to have I guess enough criticism built up within
you to realize that's what's going to motivate me to
(11:00):
actually makes them real change. And so I kind of
see this thing where we believe that patriotism and cynicism
have to be devoid from one another. But if you
know that this great thing that you love so much has,
you know, a fatal flaw, wouldn't you raise a stink
enough to make people want to fix it. So cynicism
(11:22):
is nothing to be scared at all. Interesting, It's just
a very natural first step to the consciousness of the public.
So now this makes me curious about what you mean
when you say patriotism. It sounds like you're not talking
about nationalism. You're talking about something you might identify with,
even though you're very clear eyed about the weaknesses and
the flaws of the system. So what does it mean
(11:43):
to you to be patriotic? Oh, to be a patriot
means to love the country, and with love comes accountability.
Patriotism was reframed after nine eleven to being that the
United States is some actor that isn't culpable for any
of its actions because it's always actively defending us. But
with that kind of toxic mentality. You never understand the
(12:04):
ways that America can hurt people, and therefore we kind
of get stuck up in our own enamored relationship with
this country that we don't wish to see it any better.
Patriotism also requires civic engagement and people over country. For
you to love something so much but never act upon
(12:24):
that love makes me wonder is that actual love. It's
kind of like what my mama always said. If it's not,
love is lust, and patriotism is like a lust for
this country, and cynicism is a love for it. So
how hopeful are you about the possibility of people to change?
This isn't just about beating people, but there's also some
(12:47):
folks you're never going to reach. I think about this
when I go on Fox News rightly, So, so, how
do your debat or right? And part of debate is
about winning, but part of real debate it's about persuasion.
How do you square that in your account of where
we're heading? So I think the best way I think
that I can incorporate this idea where you know, people
who aren't necessarily as progressive existing in a space where
(13:08):
we desperately need some major change, because like we have
to remember that people change and it's up to the
institution to react and in order to do that. I
think elections, if for this one, is like pretty interesting
because it's kind of like this idea that we are
choosing who we want to pressure, and an election allows
for the democratic process for everyone to first have that opinion.
(13:30):
And then when you allow the pressure to uh to
enter in for you know, necessary change, um like abolished
eyes or to protect black and brown bodies in the
streets from police executions, is when we start to see
the special interests of the community play through. And it's
kind of this this concept of the beloved community. You're right,
maybe it's not so much about defeating one another or
(13:52):
reaching one another, but rather protecting and nurturing your ideology.
I believe that it's up to communities of color, where
they oftentimes you know, are having are being gaslighted about
the situation that they are in. It is up to
them to you know, advocate into and too and have
a voice. In doing so, they are creating community connections
(14:13):
within one another, which ultimately is just better for the
future of the advocacy of that space. And then they're
also humanizing the struggle and I think a lot of
a lot of this idea of what we need to
change and what we need to fix, we keep so
much in this abstract thought space that we forget that
there's a very human need for it at the end
of the day. So ultimately we just need to amplify
(14:37):
the fact that there's a human need for it. So
what's going on with your peers? I mean, do you
(14:59):
do feel like your generation is going to be more
active or do you feel like I know, I always
felt like I was kind of a minority in terms
of interest in politics and public affairs and civic things.
It wasn't exactly cool. Your generation seems to be kind
of more active and engaged, But maybe that's from the
outside looking in. How would you describe it, and how
does it feel on campus and with people you spend
(15:19):
time with. Maybe you're right, maybe it's just on the
outside looking get. I think the brilliant thing about social
media is that it connects so many of us to
have very important conversations and discourse. But oftentimes social media
looks like a final resting round for a lot of folks. Activism,
you know, performative stuff Like I was very upset a
(15:41):
few months ago when the Blackout Tuesday, and I saw
a whole bunch of people like do it, and I
was like, you realized the whole point of Blackout Tuesday
was to clog the feed so there wasn't any information
about Black Lives matter. But you have your head so
wrapped up, and what can I do performatively? You don't
think completely through your actions. So what I'm saying is
(16:02):
with my peers, I do feel as if there's a
major sense of engagement. However, I do not think they're
listening to the right voices because the Internet creates such
a fantastic echo chamber because if you spoken to one
black person, we would have told you why you should
have not engaged in the Blackout Tuesday post. So so
in that let's take up the topic of well intentioned
(16:22):
white progressive because you know, I think part of what's
given the people a lot of hope in especially the
response to the murder of George Floyd, is that this
has been a very multi racial response and awakening. But
of course the experience of this activism is radically different
if you're actually black or a person of color, then
if you're a white American trying to figure out how
(16:43):
to be an ally how do you kind of resolve
or navigate these tensions among your own peers. It's it's
it really just feels like the main disconnect between you know,
everyone is just the knowledge gap is that the violence
and oppression that people experience is very much so preferential
and like to the individual right, like the experience of
(17:04):
queer folks is not going to be the experience of
black folks, especially black queer folks. Again, you may understand that,
like we all live and leave leave different lives, but
I don't think people genuinely internalize that. You genuinely cannot
understand why I face the things I do and how
I feel about the things that I do in my
(17:25):
perception about that. And I think that is of such
a major um step is just internalizing that difference, also
having real empathy for um, you know, the communities. Is
it because you don't believe us when we are talking
about how to solve our oppression. Is it because there's
something about me that isn't you know, convincing is or
(17:49):
is it because you're trying to preserve your comfort? Either way,
those are your three choices. The only way that I
think you're acting on empathy is when we begin to
see true change. The other thing I really want to
ask you about is your perspective on what success looks
like in the medium term. Like this decade is clearly
going to decide so much for our country. So a
(18:10):
decade from now, you're approaching the age of thirty and
we're looking back on the ties. What would have to
happen for us to be able to say that the
ties got us toward where our country needs to go,
and what would be the work remaining to be done.
I think the one tangible marker I think of success
for is that we've abolished a two party system and
(18:33):
it made it impossible the campaign under a binary well
and replaced it with lud maybe parliamentary system. You know
what I'm saying, require coalitions because we got to start
reminding like he's not like about this election. Guess this
election stocks it feels really bad right now, but this
is a great opportunity for us to remind our politicians
(18:55):
that they have to earn our vote again. And because
if we have coal missions and if we are electing
representatives to then grant our head of state the power
it's a clear reminder that we are putting you in
this job. Wait, just like Marvin Gay's dad, I brought
you into this world and I can take you out.
(19:21):
I get how difficult it is to expect optimism from
a generation that has grown up with some of the
greatest struggles in our modern history. The post nine eleven Wars,
the two tho eight crash and its aftermath, the Trump presidency,
climate change, you name it. I remember the sense of
hope that came for so many my age with the
two thousand election and President Obama, and then the dramatic
(19:42):
gains and setbacks that followed. But Renee speaks for many
his age who reached voting age during the Trump era
and feel that they have seen only failure from policymakers
in charge of trying to make their lives better. I'm
glad to see that for someone like Renee, naive optimism
is out of the question, but so is dison agement.
And I'm glad to see his generation insisting on being heard.
(20:07):
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