November 15, 2021 • 26 mins
The Doughertys have just been arrested in Walsenburg, Colorado. The siblings are taken to the local hospital for injuries they’ve sustained in their attempt to get away from law Enforcement. Meanwhile, FBI Agents, Pasco County Sheriff’s Detectives and the national media have descended Walsenburg.
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Episode Transcript
Available transcripts are automatically generated. Complete accuracy is not guaranteed.
Speaker 1 (00:01):
The ambulance pulls into the emergency entrance of Spanish Peaks
Hospital and I'm pushed into the tiny hospital room. I
can hear Dylan being brought in and I call out
to him, Hey, buddy, Haley, Haley. When the boys get excited,
Hay and Lee become combined, forming the name Haley. What
are you doing? I say, this is more of a
(00:21):
greeting than anything else. Are you all right? Yeah? I'm okay,
but it was just a forty cow through and through.
Dylan is wheeled away, and I know he will be fine.
His right arm is fractured and he has road rash
from flying out the back of window and smacking the pavement.
But besides that, he's absolutely fine. My wound is still
hurting me. The door's open and I can see Ryan.
(00:43):
He looks dazed and his neck is in a huge brace.
I yell out to Ryan and repeat almost exactly what
I said to Dylan. My mind is starting to play
tricks on me. I don't feel like this is reality.
It can't be soon. There are fifty or more officers
and staff milling around, peeking in at me and making
comments under their breath. They all seem excited, even happy.
(01:06):
Here one say we caught the Docherty Gang. I can't
believe it. Little old Walsonburg p D. I look away
in sigh. A nice older male nurse comes over and
tells me they're moving me across the hall. I will
be right next to Dylan and Ryan, so of course
I get excited. Welcome to the Docherty Gang, a production
of I Heart Radio and Katie Studios, Episode nine Bars
(01:31):
of Xanax. I'm Courtney Armstrong, a crime producer at Katie
Studios with Stephanie lie Decker. We've been working with producer
Beth Greenwald on The Docherty Gang for months now. These
three siblings have agreed to tell their story for the
very first time, each from separate prisons. Lee Grace Docherty
is at the Federal Correction Institute Aliceville in Alabama. Ryan
(01:54):
Docherty is in the U S Penitentiary Tucson in Arizona,
and Dylan Docherty is at the Federal Correction Institute in Bennettsville,
South Carolina. Let's call which from a side of us.
You know, we're young kids, we're dumb, we're inexperienced as
far as both the consequences of what's coming. And then
I don't know, man, they just like expect you to know,
(02:16):
like you know, what's illegal and what's not right. But
there's no public safety announcement you know, over the television
once a day that says, hey, if you're eighteen, don't
suck a fifteen year old chick. Hey if you rob
a bank, you're going to get forty years. You know. Hey,
there's there's there's nothing, there's none of that. It's just
like the society just depends on your parents to drill
these things into And it's not that my mom didn't interested.
(02:40):
I don't know, we probably just never saw in the
cards for us. After an eight day fifteen state pursued,
including two shootouts with police and a bank robbery, the
dopertees were arrested in Colorado, and law enforcement was more
than eager to speak with them. The FBI questions them first,
followed by the Florida authorities, who flew out immediately after
they were captured. Here's Pascal County Detective Tim Harris. We
(03:06):
initially wanted to talk to Ryan because the information that
we had gleaned from from our investigation back here was
he was kind of the not necessarily the weak link,
because in actuality, he was the one that had had
caused the whole circumstance with with him getting put on
(03:26):
probation cutting off his ankle bracelet. We were told as
we were trying to set up that interview that Ryan
had been contacted by an attorney out there and that
he didn't want to talk to law enforcement. And so
of course we explained to our counterparts there at the
Sheriff's office that he needed to verbalize that to either
(03:48):
one of them or to us directly, obviously, that he
was asserting his Fifth Amendment rights and that he didn't
want to talk to us, which he did. They went
back contact and he said, Nope, I'm not I don't
want to talk to anyone. So we moved on to
Lee Grace, and she was the first interview that we
uh that we did that day, and that was on
(04:09):
the August eleventh. I believe I'd like to talk to
about what happened, okay. Started from actually the August the
second song came about and until it at the very end,
he says, you're a custody I have to read your rights. Okay.
Lee Grace and Dylan both waved their rights to an
attorney and spoke with the Pascal County authorities. You know
(04:30):
what was what was the plan? There was no plan.
It was kind of you know, Ryan's like that he
was ancle bracelet all everybody, We'll see my son, my son,
my son and my son. That was just the whole problem.
What was he talked about? Was he what was his
ancle bracelet? He was like, how could this judge does
to me? He's like, how is this happening? You know?
And Dylan's just like he was rolroading. He was roilroaded.
(04:51):
And the lawyer, the lawyer lawyer, because you know, when
you paid where twenty somethings do you expect some good results.
You kind of go into a situation knowing, Okay, this
is gonna be bad, it's gonna be good. You know what,
someone convinced you, Okay, this is gonna be a good situation.
You kind of wanted something. It turns around really fast.
You're kind of like, you know, you get choked up.
(05:12):
And I didn't want to ask my little brother going
to prison. I mean, I love ah, I heard I
don't want anything bad to happen to him. Here's Dylan
being interrogated by detectives. Obviously, he made a huge, huge
decision in in doing what he did by by cutting
the bracelet off and leaving. I mean, did he not
(05:34):
consider that the repercussions of that would be even worse
than what the situation he was in? I mean, what
was his line of thinking, we just want to get
him away. I'm not saying it didn't matter. Oh yeah,
I guess technically it really it really wouldn't. I mean, well,
and that's what I'm sorry to him with it with
state prosecuting attorney there and my brother's lawyer and two
(05:57):
other guys that they bought him from where he did.
I mean, my brother said he was about, you know,
his bathroom and his pants. You know, this this big
it's a big ordeal. Man. He was so stressed out
of that field forever. Man, it's a life changing the experience.
And he said that they were here laughing like man,
just like they had just come from playing golf together
(06:18):
or something, and they lovely did and the judge was
like the judge was like, oh, we're on shard, but
you're just gonna have to do it. And there was
no way my brother was gonna go to do it.
They were setting him out from bad. They're give him
just enough rope paying himself. Man Lee Grace spoke coyly
during her interrogation. Basically, when you guys left Jeffrey Hills,
(06:38):
you went on the run. I mean you were gone,
and that's what we want to know. If you remember
where you did, how you ended up here in yamp
We love the state and it's really nice, pretty and
were camping. That's all I remember. But the Pascal County
detectives really wanted to know about the chase with the
police cruiser. Do you remember where you drove to when
(06:59):
you left Zufford Hills For some reason, We're going south,
you know, and then Ryan's going like eight miles over
Jons like slow down, slow down, slow. Ryan was driving
and Dylan's like slow down. And then there were lights
and then it just kind of everything just kind of
(07:22):
goes black. I mean, the patrol corps behind you, sat
back seat. What what did you see the lights activate? Hey,
we're being stopped. Yeah, I think he I think he
turned his lights on when he passed. I think he
passed us at one point that he got behind us. Okay,
all right, what happens that I wish I could be
(07:43):
more helpful. I just Detective Tim Harris press Lee race
for answers. Was deny shots fired when he took the
right Um. I mean I talked to that I a
lot yesterday. I mean, I really I told him everything
that I wanted to really say, you know, out lay
at present, because I really I don't hurt any more people.
(08:03):
I don't want to get any more people in trouble.
You're in trouble. You're in da trouble, and you know that,
you and your brothers. I thought, if someone said, okay,
if you tell us them, is that'tly what happened? We'll
caught you a deal. You know, we'll get your reduced
and sentence. But I don't mean it's gonna happen. You
guys are smart. You guys already know what happening. The
great Psyche I was telling you what it's about is
is that and the reason that we sit down and
we talk with people that end up being in your
(08:25):
situation is is that if we don't get the explanation
though the series of events from you as you remember
they happened, there may be stuff out there that you
get blamed for that. You didn't do you see what
I mean? And I obviously we don't want that to happen.
I mean, that's one of them. But if I tell
you was shooting, what was shot at? Why are we shot?
You're into gonna it's not it's not gonna come back
(08:46):
to me. I mean, I'm not gonna say I had
no part in this. I had. It was three people.
I was thirty three shirt at home. And but see,
that's that's what we want, that's what we want to know.
You know right now? Can you talk to one of
them and asked them, because I will, but they'll say, well,
you know, we lovely Grace, but she's a drug addict
and she needs happen. You don't talk to the talk
(09:09):
to the ones that no one's going on. I take
in enough drugs to put five people down. I take
in approximately x bars oh cars, which are Jenny bar
yes bars, So I had taken approximately twenty five of those.
The detectives turn their attention back to Dylan. When the
(09:31):
officer pulled it behind you and you turn on the
D four. How many shots did you fire in the ford?
Do you remember? I mean, if you don't I don't remember, okay,
six seven, I don't honestly don't remember. Okay, So when
you're traveling down with the D four, what happens there's
Alan road riding here, there's Alan called Alan run. What
happens in that area gives us some more shots? Bart
(09:57):
good if you don't remember, just fe understandably. Pascal County
detectives were growing frustrated. You know, we're talking about weapons.
Do you remember back at the house when you when
you put the weapons, howding the weapons getting in the vehicle?
I'm assuming they were in the vehicle because you see
any had them with you, right, I guess I quit
(10:19):
them in there. Well, I don't want to guess. Just
just let me know what happened. I didn't. I was
gonna they were something I could sell, something I could
turn in the car, or something that helped, just like
you know, something that you had a partner with. What's
your thought process at the time when when you guys
are being stopped? Uh is or is anybody saying anything
(10:42):
as far as let's not stop? Did you ask your
brother drying to stop? Okay, well, what happened? Can you
tell me what happened? But who decided to fire the shots. Dylan,
who decided to fire the shots. Nobody got hurt. Nobody
got hurt. After a long pause, still and finally answered
(11:05):
Detective Harris's question, it was it was me I shot
the cop car. Is that? Do you remember what with
the first time? What weapon did you have in your
hand the first time? Do you remember? I don't want
to tell me. I don't. I really don't remember. All right, Um, well,
(11:25):
can you tell me how many weapons were in the
car at the time. Quite a few, I don't remember.
I didn't have like a finger count. Okay, so you're
just trying to disable his car from you gonna trying
to hurt him. Tell me, did you know what you did?
You shot? I was tired, okay? Is left front tire?
I want flat? Okay, that's that's great. The right time,
(11:47):
I would have kind of been half right, Okay. Did
anyone else in the car fire a weapon? It was me,
just fre I guess I've pant freaked out whatever, I
(12:07):
just I didn't. I just wanted Here's Beth speaking with
Officer Widener. It seems like they were kind of firing recklessly,
but they did hit the car quite a bit. Do
you think if they wanted to when you round in
that corner, that they could have caused you harm directly
you've shot you. I guess it all depends on how
good of a shot the person is, you know, And honestly, uh,
(12:33):
I don't know. I don't know what they were thinking.
Dylan fire twenty times with an assault weapon on the
police officer. Here's lawyer and gun expert Jay Maysh. I'm
very skeptical of the ability of someone in a speeding
car to shoot out the tire of another speeding car.
That would be one hell of a shot. So perhaps
(12:58):
one of those cars was stationary at the time. Uh,
I don't know the answer, or maybe it was a
lucky shot, but it would be most unusual that this
business of shooting out the tires of a car happens
in the movies. Is it possible if one of the
cars were stationary, the Doughertees were ahead of the police
(13:21):
patrol car and pulled around an embankment, and when that
car came around the bend, he shot the tire out.
I suppose that's you know, if you said if the
shot were set up that way, I suppose that's perfectly
possible to do that, but everything would have to be
moving at near zero speed in order to be accurate.
You know, you can always be lucky, you can, you know,
(13:44):
Lee Harvey Oswald. Some people say it was the greatest
shot in the world, and other people say he he
was lucky. Let's stop here for another quick break. We'll
be back at a moment. Detective Kevin Widener, who was
(14:09):
chasing the Doughertys, was interviewed on the local news. I
look forward to seeing these criminals received the punishment they
are due for putting my life in danger as well
as many citizens. They showed total disregardful. Widener is married
and has a seven month old child. He says he's
(14:31):
never been shot at until last week. Detective Tim Harris
shared something more from the interrogation. I don't want to
call it sincere, but it sounded sincere. Dylan said, just
tell the officer and Zephyr Hills. I'm sorry. Here's Pascal
County Sheriff Chris Naco. Those three made the decisions they made.
(14:52):
Maybe they grew up in an environment that didn't teach
those type of things, you know, which is, you know,
it's bad for anybody out to do that, but at
some point in everybody's life they have to make decisions.
So unfortunately our society, you know we're trying, we will
often shifts blame away from the person who actually makes
that decision, and that's the person of our needs to
(15:12):
go back to that they made a conscious decisions for
guns in the vehicle to drive in to shoot at
law enforcement. Offering up a different perspective. Psychotherapist and the armstrong. Now,
when someone experiences significant ongoing trauma in their childhood, their
brains develop in different ways so that there response, an
(15:34):
ability to gauge threat is heightened, so their fight flight
freeze response is heightened. Their ability to decipher risk and
then use the part of their brain that helps them
with judgment and rational thinking is less active. So when
that part of the brain that responds to threat is activated,
(15:57):
the part of the brain that it uses reason and
judgment is diminished. And so you see that kind of
showing up in hasty decisions or risky behavior. It also
shows up in drug abuse or anxiety disorders or depression.
After the interrogations, the Doperties were held at the jail
(16:17):
in Wolsenburg, Colorado, tonight, three Pasco County siblings wanted in
Florida and also in Georgia, are being held on one
point three million dollars bond a piece in Colorado. They're
each charged with attempted murder and assault on a police officer.
Now the family will face charges together in three separate states. Now,
(16:37):
despite all the gunfire aimed at law enforcement, fortunately no
officers were hurt. As for the doorties, it remains unclear
just which state will actually get to try them. Here's
Beth Greenwald speaking with Ryan. So, when do you first
get arraigned? How many days after you're taken into customy
the act day you always go for your first appearance, right,
and then you go shortly after that for arraignment and
(17:00):
then install stall stall delay tactics in order to get um.
The judicial system always works like this, doesn't matter where
you go at universal, you go your very first day
the next day for first appearance. That's like mandatory, that's
sancor sank right. Then you move from there to like
maybe like a first appearance, which is bullshit. It's just
like you're appearing. Here's your charges which are being brought
(17:21):
up on. Here's fail if you're going to be appointed
it or not. And then uh, here's the public offender
if you are indigent, and here's or you can choose
to hire a private attorney at this time, and then
you move forward from there. And then it's pretty much
stall tactics. You wait to get your discovery. You see
how bad evidence is mounted against you. Did you know
(17:41):
that Amber went into labor until I was already arrested.
Where were you when you found out she gave birth?
I was in like a county jail, just to jail,
and I remember one of the jailers came and gave
me like a piece of paper and all it said
on it was my my son's name and his his weight,
you know that he was born and whatnot. Just a
(18:03):
real short note. Just came and gave it to me
to say anything, just hey, this is for you, and
then added it to me and left. And it's just
crushing because you know that it's really emotional at the beginning.
Now it's like I'm the scripted of emotions. I got
a lot less emotions than I did down Obviously, it's
a it's an emotional time. About a week after being arrested,
(18:26):
Lee Grace met with her attorney, Patrick McCarville. Here's Beth
Greenwald speaking with macarville. Tell me what that first meeting
is like, what the initial meetings are like, is you're
getting ready to represent her. We Grace was in good spirits,
which was so much surprising getting her overall situation, and
(18:46):
basically she remained in good spirits throughout my representation of her.
I found it interesting at her very first court appearance
on August two of two thousand and eleven, I had
never seen the slew of CNN trucks, satellite vehicles parked
(19:06):
up and down Main Street. Um the court in the
local law enforcement was so concerned that there would be
I guess the gang would come, you know, break them
out of jail. That they had snipers on all of
the buildings around the courthouse, and so because of all
(19:29):
the satellite trucks, my investigator and I had to part
block or so away from the courthouse. And as I
got out of my vehicle, a what I would characterize
as homeless person came up to me and said, is
today the day they're going to sentence the fugitives? And
(19:53):
of course it wasn't. It was the first time they
were appearing in court. Um. But that pretty much solidified
my belief that this was going to be an uphill
climb in representing her. That if the homeless population believed
that not only were they guilty, but they were about
to be sentenced. Um. And that was the community sentiment
(20:16):
at the time. I had, you know, tried homicide cases
prior to this, but I had never handled the case
that had so much media attention. UM. So I I
tried to give lead Grace as much attention as I
(20:38):
could back. She was very forthcoming. I had her complete,
you know, some social surveys so that I knew just
about every aspect of her life. UM. And I guess
what the theme that was really you know, boiling to
(21:02):
the surface, was the bond she had with her brothers.
We're going to take a quick break here. We'll be
back in a moment. Kobe Becker was Dylan's attorney. Do
(21:24):
you remember your first meeting with Dylan. We did talk
about the case. We talked about, you know, our strategy
for the case and stuff like that, but we we
really talked mostly about him about life, what he wanted
to do. He asked about my family, We talked about
my son um. You know, it was a lot of
(21:44):
chit chatting. The first time my attorney came here and
spoke to me, Mrs Becker came in all my fake
case there in Colorado, and you know, she was the
file was pretty thick. Started speak man, you know, She's like, oh,
they're trying to charge you with this, this and this,
and she kind of made a little like a life joke.
I think according to Dylan, you had said something to
(22:05):
the effect of, like you had to go into like
the fanciest. I think I told them, Mike, why didn't
you just try Walbart like you you know, you went
into our I and took the fanciest you know, can't
pay equipment or try to pay for the fancies. And
I did give him props for wanting to pay for
that um for his purchases. But I was sort of
laughing about how ridiculous that was that he was paying
(22:27):
with all the money. And Dylan and I from the
very beginning, had a really good relationship because he he
was able to at least to recognize the ridiculousness um
of his actions. And uh, I've learned a lot about
you know, brain development, and and they were all you know,
(22:48):
early twenties. Um, I think Ryan was nineteen maybe eighteen
nineteen at the time, and you know, they just they
made impulsive decisions and you but what I really loved
about that family. As much as all the crimes are
alleged to have committed and all the fear that they've
(23:08):
put in people and law enforcement, etcetera, etcetera, they really
were a family and they definitely were very much like, Hey,
if we're gonna go down, we're going to go down altogether.
And I have a lot of admiration for that, if
you will. We reached out to Ryan's attorney as well,
but he didn't want to participate. Avadan Moleski is a
(23:31):
psychologist who specializes in sibling relationships. He followed the doctor
to case closely. They were clearly a close knit a
bunch of siblings, and then you add all these stressors
to it, and that closest just survives even further, and
that sibling closeness or that sibling compensation is kicking in
now in a very powerful way in order to help
(23:55):
the siblings continue working together to deal with this new
life a diversity, and that really the story throughout this
entire episode is that even once they're on the run,
how they're taking care of each other during that week
on the run, and then even once they're caught and
they're going to the whole trial system, they're looking after
(24:15):
each other so well. Basically is happening where when you
have certain positive dynamics between sibone and you just throw
as you're calling you trauma into the mix, it just
tightens that sibling dynamic further and they're even more cold
obsessed and taking care of each other. The dopertees never
(24:35):
gave up on one another, and their sibling devotion continued.
A jail cell search comes up Big Gus. Twenty six
year old Dylan Dougherty is caught with an eight inch
nipe made up of metal and a farewell letter addressed
to the FBI and Werfino County Jail. According to their
rest AffA David, it reads, I've enjoyed staying here, so
(24:56):
don't take any of this personal. A tripe of sakraena
seeing front of the box. And I think when you
get somebody a certain straffat, his only way to do
with a set rat is actually overcome it. If you
put him in a box, if you give him enough time,
he has enough energy, he's gonna find a way to escape.
(25:19):
You know, when he was making those plans, he was
in his right stand line and he was going to escape. Now,
whether or not he knew what was going to happen
after we actually escaped, I don't know more on that
next time. If you're over eighteen years old and want
to see pictures of Lee Grace and Ryan Dougherty or
find their addresses to write them in prison, go to
(25:40):
our Instagram at Katie Underscore Studios. The Dougherty Gang is
executive produced by Stephanie Lye Decker and me Courtney Armstrong,
along with Beth Greenwald, Sean McEwen, and Joseph Morgan. Editing
and sound design is by Jeff Ta, Additional producing by
Chris Graves and Jeff Shane. The Doctor Gang the production
of I Heart Radio and Katie Studios. For more podcasts
(26:03):
from my Heart Radio, visit the I Heart Radio app,
Apple podcast, or wherever you listen to your favorite shows.
M
The ambulance pulls into the emergency entrance of Spanish Peaks
Hospital and I'm pushed into the tiny hospital room. I
can hear Dylan being brought in and I call out
to him, Hey, buddy, Haley, Haley. When the boys get excited,
Hay and Lee become combined, forming the name Haley. What
are you doing? I say, this is more of a
(00:21):
greeting than anything else. Are you all right? Yeah? I'm okay,
but it was just a forty cow through and through.
Dylan is wheeled away, and I know he will be fine.
His right arm is fractured and he has road rash
from flying out the back of window and smacking the pavement.
But besides that, he's absolutely fine. My wound is still
hurting me. The door's open and I can see Ryan.
(00:43):
He looks dazed and his neck is in a huge brace.
I yell out to Ryan and repeat almost exactly what
I said to Dylan. My mind is starting to play
tricks on me. I don't feel like this is reality.
It can't be soon. There are fifty or more officers
and staff milling around, peeking in at me and making
comments under their breath. They all seem excited, even happy.
(01:06):
Here one say we caught the Docherty Gang. I can't
believe it. Little old Walsonburg p D. I look away
in sigh. A nice older male nurse comes over and
tells me they're moving me across the hall. I will
be right next to Dylan and Ryan, so of course
I get excited. Welcome to the Docherty Gang, a production
of I Heart Radio and Katie Studios, Episode nine Bars
(01:31):
of Xanax. I'm Courtney Armstrong, a crime producer at Katie
Studios with Stephanie lie Decker. We've been working with producer
Beth Greenwald on The Docherty Gang for months now. These
three siblings have agreed to tell their story for the
very first time, each from separate prisons. Lee Grace Docherty
is at the Federal Correction Institute Aliceville in Alabama. Ryan
(01:54):
Docherty is in the U S Penitentiary Tucson in Arizona,
and Dylan Docherty is at the Federal Correction Institute in Bennettsville,
South Carolina. Let's call which from a side of us.
You know, we're young kids, we're dumb, we're inexperienced as
far as both the consequences of what's coming. And then
I don't know, man, they just like expect you to know,
(02:16):
like you know, what's illegal and what's not right. But
there's no public safety announcement you know, over the television
once a day that says, hey, if you're eighteen, don't
suck a fifteen year old chick. Hey if you rob
a bank, you're going to get forty years. You know. Hey,
there's there's there's nothing, there's none of that. It's just
like the society just depends on your parents to drill
these things into And it's not that my mom didn't interested.
(02:40):
I don't know, we probably just never saw in the
cards for us. After an eight day fifteen state pursued,
including two shootouts with police and a bank robbery, the
dopertees were arrested in Colorado, and law enforcement was more
than eager to speak with them. The FBI questions them first,
followed by the Florida authorities, who flew out immediately after
they were captured. Here's Pascal County Detective Tim Harris. We
(03:06):
initially wanted to talk to Ryan because the information that
we had gleaned from from our investigation back here was
he was kind of the not necessarily the weak link,
because in actuality, he was the one that had had
caused the whole circumstance with with him getting put on
(03:26):
probation cutting off his ankle bracelet. We were told as
we were trying to set up that interview that Ryan
had been contacted by an attorney out there and that
he didn't want to talk to law enforcement. And so
of course we explained to our counterparts there at the
Sheriff's office that he needed to verbalize that to either
(03:48):
one of them or to us directly, obviously, that he
was asserting his Fifth Amendment rights and that he didn't
want to talk to us, which he did. They went
back contact and he said, Nope, I'm not I don't
want to talk to anyone. So we moved on to
Lee Grace, and she was the first interview that we
uh that we did that day, and that was on
(04:09):
the August eleventh. I believe I'd like to talk to
about what happened, okay. Started from actually the August the
second song came about and until it at the very end,
he says, you're a custody I have to read your rights. Okay.
Lee Grace and Dylan both waved their rights to an
attorney and spoke with the Pascal County authorities. You know
(04:30):
what was what was the plan? There was no plan.
It was kind of you know, Ryan's like that he
was ancle bracelet all everybody, We'll see my son, my son,
my son and my son. That was just the whole problem.
What was he talked about? Was he what was his
ancle bracelet? He was like, how could this judge does
to me? He's like, how is this happening? You know?
And Dylan's just like he was rolroading. He was roilroaded.
(04:51):
And the lawyer, the lawyer lawyer, because you know, when
you paid where twenty somethings do you expect some good results.
You kind of go into a situation knowing, Okay, this
is gonna be bad, it's gonna be good. You know what,
someone convinced you, Okay, this is gonna be a good situation.
You kind of wanted something. It turns around really fast.
You're kind of like, you know, you get choked up.
(05:12):
And I didn't want to ask my little brother going
to prison. I mean, I love ah, I heard I
don't want anything bad to happen to him. Here's Dylan
being interrogated by detectives. Obviously, he made a huge, huge
decision in in doing what he did by by cutting
the bracelet off and leaving. I mean, did he not
(05:34):
consider that the repercussions of that would be even worse
than what the situation he was in? I mean, what
was his line of thinking, we just want to get
him away. I'm not saying it didn't matter. Oh yeah,
I guess technically it really it really wouldn't. I mean, well,
and that's what I'm sorry to him with it with
state prosecuting attorney there and my brother's lawyer and two
(05:57):
other guys that they bought him from where he did.
I mean, my brother said he was about, you know,
his bathroom and his pants. You know, this this big
it's a big ordeal. Man. He was so stressed out
of that field forever. Man, it's a life changing the experience.
And he said that they were here laughing like man,
just like they had just come from playing golf together
(06:18):
or something, and they lovely did and the judge was
like the judge was like, oh, we're on shard, but
you're just gonna have to do it. And there was
no way my brother was gonna go to do it.
They were setting him out from bad. They're give him
just enough rope paying himself. Man Lee Grace spoke coyly
during her interrogation. Basically, when you guys left Jeffrey Hills,
(06:38):
you went on the run. I mean you were gone,
and that's what we want to know. If you remember
where you did, how you ended up here in yamp
We love the state and it's really nice, pretty and
were camping. That's all I remember. But the Pascal County
detectives really wanted to know about the chase with the
police cruiser. Do you remember where you drove to when
(06:59):
you left Zufford Hills For some reason, We're going south,
you know, and then Ryan's going like eight miles over
Jons like slow down, slow down, slow. Ryan was driving
and Dylan's like slow down. And then there were lights
and then it just kind of everything just kind of
(07:22):
goes black. I mean, the patrol corps behind you, sat
back seat. What what did you see the lights activate? Hey,
we're being stopped. Yeah, I think he I think he
turned his lights on when he passed. I think he
passed us at one point that he got behind us. Okay,
all right, what happens that I wish I could be
(07:43):
more helpful. I just Detective Tim Harris press Lee race
for answers. Was deny shots fired when he took the
right Um. I mean I talked to that I a
lot yesterday. I mean, I really I told him everything
that I wanted to really say, you know, out lay
at present, because I really I don't hurt any more people.
(08:03):
I don't want to get any more people in trouble.
You're in trouble. You're in da trouble, and you know that,
you and your brothers. I thought, if someone said, okay,
if you tell us them, is that'tly what happened? We'll
caught you a deal. You know, we'll get your reduced
and sentence. But I don't mean it's gonna happen. You
guys are smart. You guys already know what happening. The
great Psyche I was telling you what it's about is
is that and the reason that we sit down and
we talk with people that end up being in your
(08:25):
situation is is that if we don't get the explanation
though the series of events from you as you remember
they happened, there may be stuff out there that you
get blamed for that. You didn't do you see what
I mean? And I obviously we don't want that to happen.
I mean, that's one of them. But if I tell
you was shooting, what was shot at? Why are we shot?
You're into gonna it's not it's not gonna come back
(08:46):
to me. I mean, I'm not gonna say I had
no part in this. I had. It was three people.
I was thirty three shirt at home. And but see,
that's that's what we want, that's what we want to know.
You know right now? Can you talk to one of
them and asked them, because I will, but they'll say, well,
you know, we lovely Grace, but she's a drug addict
and she needs happen. You don't talk to the talk
(09:09):
to the ones that no one's going on. I take
in enough drugs to put five people down. I take
in approximately x bars oh cars, which are Jenny bar
yes bars, So I had taken approximately twenty five of those.
The detectives turn their attention back to Dylan. When the
(09:31):
officer pulled it behind you and you turn on the
D four. How many shots did you fire in the ford?
Do you remember? I mean, if you don't I don't remember, okay,
six seven, I don't honestly don't remember. Okay, So when
you're traveling down with the D four, what happens there's
Alan road riding here, there's Alan called Alan run. What
happens in that area gives us some more shots? Bart
(09:57):
good if you don't remember, just fe understandably. Pascal County
detectives were growing frustrated. You know, we're talking about weapons.
Do you remember back at the house when you when
you put the weapons, howding the weapons getting in the vehicle?
I'm assuming they were in the vehicle because you see
any had them with you, right, I guess I quit
(10:19):
them in there. Well, I don't want to guess. Just
just let me know what happened. I didn't. I was
gonna they were something I could sell, something I could
turn in the car, or something that helped, just like
you know, something that you had a partner with. What's
your thought process at the time when when you guys
are being stopped? Uh is or is anybody saying anything
(10:42):
as far as let's not stop? Did you ask your
brother drying to stop? Okay, well, what happened? Can you
tell me what happened? But who decided to fire the shots. Dylan,
who decided to fire the shots. Nobody got hurt. Nobody
got hurt. After a long pause, still and finally answered
(11:05):
Detective Harris's question, it was it was me I shot
the cop car. Is that? Do you remember what with
the first time? What weapon did you have in your
hand the first time? Do you remember? I don't want
to tell me. I don't. I really don't remember. All right, Um, well,
(11:25):
can you tell me how many weapons were in the
car at the time. Quite a few, I don't remember.
I didn't have like a finger count. Okay, so you're
just trying to disable his car from you gonna trying
to hurt him. Tell me, did you know what you did?
You shot? I was tired, okay? Is left front tire?
I want flat? Okay, that's that's great. The right time,
(11:47):
I would have kind of been half right, Okay. Did
anyone else in the car fire a weapon? It was me,
just fre I guess I've pant freaked out whatever, I
(12:07):
just I didn't. I just wanted Here's Beth speaking with
Officer Widener. It seems like they were kind of firing recklessly,
but they did hit the car quite a bit. Do
you think if they wanted to when you round in
that corner, that they could have caused you harm directly
you've shot you. I guess it all depends on how
good of a shot the person is, you know, And honestly, uh,
(12:33):
I don't know. I don't know what they were thinking.
Dylan fire twenty times with an assault weapon on the
police officer. Here's lawyer and gun expert Jay Maysh. I'm
very skeptical of the ability of someone in a speeding
car to shoot out the tire of another speeding car.
That would be one hell of a shot. So perhaps
(12:58):
one of those cars was stationary at the time. Uh,
I don't know the answer, or maybe it was a
lucky shot, but it would be most unusual that this
business of shooting out the tires of a car happens
in the movies. Is it possible if one of the
cars were stationary, the Doughertees were ahead of the police
(13:21):
patrol car and pulled around an embankment, and when that
car came around the bend, he shot the tire out.
I suppose that's you know, if you said if the
shot were set up that way, I suppose that's perfectly
possible to do that, but everything would have to be
moving at near zero speed in order to be accurate.
You know, you can always be lucky, you can, you know,
(13:44):
Lee Harvey Oswald. Some people say it was the greatest
shot in the world, and other people say he he
was lucky. Let's stop here for another quick break. We'll
be back at a moment. Detective Kevin Widener, who was
(14:09):
chasing the Doughertys, was interviewed on the local news. I
look forward to seeing these criminals received the punishment they
are due for putting my life in danger as well
as many citizens. They showed total disregardful. Widener is married
and has a seven month old child. He says he's
(14:31):
never been shot at until last week. Detective Tim Harris
shared something more from the interrogation. I don't want to
call it sincere, but it sounded sincere. Dylan said, just
tell the officer and Zephyr Hills. I'm sorry. Here's Pascal
County Sheriff Chris Naco. Those three made the decisions they made.
(14:52):
Maybe they grew up in an environment that didn't teach
those type of things, you know, which is, you know,
it's bad for anybody out to do that, but at
some point in everybody's life they have to make decisions.
So unfortunately our society, you know we're trying, we will
often shifts blame away from the person who actually makes
that decision, and that's the person of our needs to
(15:12):
go back to that they made a conscious decisions for
guns in the vehicle to drive in to shoot at
law enforcement. Offering up a different perspective. Psychotherapist and the armstrong. Now,
when someone experiences significant ongoing trauma in their childhood, their
brains develop in different ways so that there response, an
(15:34):
ability to gauge threat is heightened, so their fight flight
freeze response is heightened. Their ability to decipher risk and
then use the part of their brain that helps them
with judgment and rational thinking is less active. So when
that part of the brain that responds to threat is activated,
(15:57):
the part of the brain that it uses reason and
judgment is diminished. And so you see that kind of
showing up in hasty decisions or risky behavior. It also
shows up in drug abuse or anxiety disorders or depression.
After the interrogations, the Doperties were held at the jail
(16:17):
in Wolsenburg, Colorado, tonight, three Pasco County siblings wanted in
Florida and also in Georgia, are being held on one
point three million dollars bond a piece in Colorado. They're
each charged with attempted murder and assault on a police officer.
Now the family will face charges together in three separate states. Now,
(16:37):
despite all the gunfire aimed at law enforcement, fortunately no
officers were hurt. As for the doorties, it remains unclear
just which state will actually get to try them. Here's
Beth Greenwald speaking with Ryan. So, when do you first
get arraigned? How many days after you're taken into customy
the act day you always go for your first appearance, right,
and then you go shortly after that for arraignment and
(17:00):
then install stall stall delay tactics in order to get um.
The judicial system always works like this, doesn't matter where
you go at universal, you go your very first day
the next day for first appearance. That's like mandatory, that's
sancor sank right. Then you move from there to like
maybe like a first appearance, which is bullshit. It's just
like you're appearing. Here's your charges which are being brought
(17:21):
up on. Here's fail if you're going to be appointed
it or not. And then uh, here's the public offender
if you are indigent, and here's or you can choose
to hire a private attorney at this time, and then
you move forward from there. And then it's pretty much
stall tactics. You wait to get your discovery. You see
how bad evidence is mounted against you. Did you know
(17:41):
that Amber went into labor until I was already arrested.
Where were you when you found out she gave birth?
I was in like a county jail, just to jail,
and I remember one of the jailers came and gave
me like a piece of paper and all it said
on it was my my son's name and his his weight,
you know that he was born and whatnot. Just a
(18:03):
real short note. Just came and gave it to me
to say anything, just hey, this is for you, and
then added it to me and left. And it's just
crushing because you know that it's really emotional at the beginning.
Now it's like I'm the scripted of emotions. I got
a lot less emotions than I did down Obviously, it's
a it's an emotional time. About a week after being arrested,
(18:26):
Lee Grace met with her attorney, Patrick McCarville. Here's Beth
Greenwald speaking with macarville. Tell me what that first meeting
is like, what the initial meetings are like, is you're
getting ready to represent her. We Grace was in good spirits,
which was so much surprising getting her overall situation, and
(18:46):
basically she remained in good spirits throughout my representation of her.
I found it interesting at her very first court appearance
on August two of two thousand and eleven, I had
never seen the slew of CNN trucks, satellite vehicles parked
(19:06):
up and down Main Street. Um the court in the
local law enforcement was so concerned that there would be
I guess the gang would come, you know, break them
out of jail. That they had snipers on all of
the buildings around the courthouse, and so because of all
(19:29):
the satellite trucks, my investigator and I had to part
block or so away from the courthouse. And as I
got out of my vehicle, a what I would characterize
as homeless person came up to me and said, is
today the day they're going to sentence the fugitives? And
(19:53):
of course it wasn't. It was the first time they
were appearing in court. Um. But that pretty much solidified
my belief that this was going to be an uphill
climb in representing her. That if the homeless population believed
that not only were they guilty, but they were about
to be sentenced. Um. And that was the community sentiment
(20:16):
at the time. I had, you know, tried homicide cases
prior to this, but I had never handled the case
that had so much media attention. UM. So I I
tried to give lead Grace as much attention as I
(20:38):
could back. She was very forthcoming. I had her complete,
you know, some social surveys so that I knew just
about every aspect of her life. UM. And I guess
what the theme that was really you know, boiling to
(21:02):
the surface, was the bond she had with her brothers.
We're going to take a quick break here. We'll be
back in a moment. Kobe Becker was Dylan's attorney. Do
(21:24):
you remember your first meeting with Dylan. We did talk
about the case. We talked about, you know, our strategy
for the case and stuff like that, but we we
really talked mostly about him about life, what he wanted
to do. He asked about my family, We talked about
my son um. You know, it was a lot of
(21:44):
chit chatting. The first time my attorney came here and
spoke to me, Mrs Becker came in all my fake
case there in Colorado, and you know, she was the
file was pretty thick. Started speak man, you know, She's like, oh,
they're trying to charge you with this, this and this,
and she kind of made a little like a life joke.
I think according to Dylan, you had said something to
(22:05):
the effect of, like you had to go into like
the fanciest. I think I told them, Mike, why didn't
you just try Walbart like you you know, you went
into our I and took the fanciest you know, can't
pay equipment or try to pay for the fancies. And
I did give him props for wanting to pay for
that um for his purchases. But I was sort of
laughing about how ridiculous that was that he was paying
(22:27):
with all the money. And Dylan and I from the
very beginning, had a really good relationship because he he
was able to at least to recognize the ridiculousness um
of his actions. And uh, I've learned a lot about
you know, brain development, and and they were all you know,
(22:48):
early twenties. Um, I think Ryan was nineteen maybe eighteen
nineteen at the time, and you know, they just they
made impulsive decisions and you but what I really loved
about that family. As much as all the crimes are
alleged to have committed and all the fear that they've
(23:08):
put in people and law enforcement, etcetera, etcetera, they really
were a family and they definitely were very much like, Hey,
if we're gonna go down, we're going to go down altogether.
And I have a lot of admiration for that, if
you will. We reached out to Ryan's attorney as well,
but he didn't want to participate. Avadan Moleski is a
(23:31):
psychologist who specializes in sibling relationships. He followed the doctor
to case closely. They were clearly a close knit a
bunch of siblings, and then you add all these stressors
to it, and that closest just survives even further, and
that sibling closeness or that sibling compensation is kicking in
now in a very powerful way in order to help
(23:55):
the siblings continue working together to deal with this new
life a diversity, and that really the story throughout this
entire episode is that even once they're on the run,
how they're taking care of each other during that week
on the run, and then even once they're caught and
they're going to the whole trial system, they're looking after
(24:15):
each other so well. Basically is happening where when you
have certain positive dynamics between sibone and you just throw
as you're calling you trauma into the mix, it just
tightens that sibling dynamic further and they're even more cold
obsessed and taking care of each other. The dopertees never
(24:35):
gave up on one another, and their sibling devotion continued.
A jail cell search comes up Big Gus. Twenty six
year old Dylan Dougherty is caught with an eight inch
nipe made up of metal and a farewell letter addressed
to the FBI and Werfino County Jail. According to their
rest AffA David, it reads, I've enjoyed staying here, so
(24:56):
don't take any of this personal. A tripe of sakraena
seeing front of the box. And I think when you
get somebody a certain straffat, his only way to do
with a set rat is actually overcome it. If you
put him in a box, if you give him enough time,
he has enough energy, he's gonna find a way to escape.
(25:19):
You know, when he was making those plans, he was
in his right stand line and he was going to escape. Now,
whether or not he knew what was going to happen
after we actually escaped, I don't know more on that
next time. If you're over eighteen years old and want
to see pictures of Lee Grace and Ryan Dougherty or
find their addresses to write them in prison, go to
(25:40):
our Instagram at Katie Underscore Studios. The Dougherty Gang is
executive produced by Stephanie Lye Decker and me Courtney Armstrong,
along with Beth Greenwald, Sean McEwen, and Joseph Morgan. Editing
and sound design is by Jeff Ta, Additional producing by
Chris Graves and Jeff Shane. The Doctor Gang the production
of I Heart Radio and Katie Studios. For more podcasts
(26:03):
from my Heart Radio, visit the I Heart Radio app,
Apple podcast, or wherever you listen to your favorite shows.
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