April 13, 2021 • 55 mins
As the Redeem Team tears through the Beijing Olympics, we meet some of the lesser-knowns on the team, like Tayshaun Prince and Michael Redd; deconstruct the quarterbacking and athletic brilliance of LeBron James and even ponder the relative merits of Whitney Houston vs. Mariah Carey, Olympians in their own way. Interviews with Jerry Colangelo, Chris Bosh, Deron Williams, Jason Kidd, Carmelo Anthony, Jim Boeheim, Craig Miller and Mike D'Antoni.
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Speaker 1 (00:01):
The Dream Team Tapes Season two. Kobe, Lebron and the
Redeem Team is a production of Diversion Podcasts in association
with I Heart Radio Diversion Podcasts. By now you know
(00:26):
our intro Jerry Colangelo with soundbites from Kobe Bryant, Lebron James,
and Carmelo Anthony. But this time we're gonna change it up.
Here's USA Basketball Boss Jerry Colangelo announcing the full roster
for the two thousand and eight Olympic Team. The twelve
players selected for the honor of representing the United States
in the two thousand and eight Beijing Olympic Games are
(00:50):
Carmelo Anthony of the Denver Nuggets, Carlos Boozer of the
Utah Jazz, Chris Bosh of the Toronto Raptors, Kobe Bryant
of the Los Angeles Lakers, Dwight Howard Orlando Magic, Lebron
(01:18):
James Cleveland Cavaliers, Jason Kidd Dallas Mavericks, Chris Paul New
Orleans Hornets, Tayshawn Prince Detroit Pistons, Michael Read Milwaukee Bucks,
(01:42):
Dwyane Wade Miami Heat, and Darren Williams Utah Jazz, and
I'm j A. Dande joined by Jack McCallum, and this
is episode nine of Kobe Lebron and the Redeemed Team.
We're calling it Cruising and Snoozing Teamy to say, cruises
through pool play at the Olympic Games and one assistant
(02:03):
coach has trouble staying awake. But Jack, let's start with
a quick look at the top of the roster that
Chalangelo just gave it, and it had ten members of
the two thousand and eight All Star teams there, so
this this elite crop of players from the NBA. Of course,
she had Kobe, who was the reigning m v P
it just won his first and only m v P
(02:24):
award earlier that spring, and then he would go on
to win the next two NBA finals MVPs Lebron James,
who would win the next two MVP awards. The Most
Valuable Player in two thousand nine in Chris Paul, who
was the MVP runner up in two thousand and eight.
He led the NBA and win shares in two thousand
eight for the analytics crowd. He also led the league
(02:47):
and assistant steals in two thousand nine. H Dwyane Wade
the two thousand six NBA Finals m v P the
NBA's leading score the season. After the Olympics in two
thousand eight oh nine and Dwight Howard. We forget about
the impact of Dwight Howard and how coveted he was
at that time. He was in the top five and
m VP voting every year from two thousand and eight,
(03:09):
Ton culminating as the runner up for the m v
P inn that award went to Derrick Rose, and after
these Olympics he wins the next three Defensive Player of
the Year awards. So, Jack, that's a sense for the
star power at the top of this roster. And I mean,
if you look at it, it's this is the elite
(03:29):
of the NBA at that time. A couple of things
strike me there, j And the first thing is, since
we make so many references to the the Dream Team,
if you took the top three players on a dream
team were uh, Jordan's Bird, Magic, but not at that time.
You know, Burden Bird retired the season after and Magic
was close to the end of his career. So I
(03:51):
would say the top three players on that team at
the time they were playing, you could disagree or agree with,
was Michael h Scottie Pippen, and Charles Barkley. We're gonna
get into later whether the Redeemed came, of course a
hopeless hypothetical. Could the redeem Team beat the Dream Team?
But could Superman beat up Batman? But you know, we love,
(04:12):
we love hypotheticals. Kobe Lebron and d Wade at the
top of this roster, that might be better. We don't
have time to deconstruct that because you do have the
Jordan's factor perhaps overweighing everything. But that's the first thing
that strikes me. The second Jay and I didn't remember
(04:33):
this till you, God bless you did the research. Chris
Paul m v P runner up in two thousand eight,
and uh, there's only been one m v P six
ft m v P in the history of the league,
and that was of course Alan Iverson to win runner
up of the m v P in in that time.
(04:54):
And to think of what a defensive presents Chris Paul
might be the best small defender, uh, in the history
of the league. And we're gonna see he was very
important to this team. But that really stuck out to me. Yeah,
and and later he would go on to defend Kevin
Durant in playoff games. I remember one time there was
(05:14):
a Clipper Oklahoma City Thunder series and they switched Chris
Paul on the Durant and he defended him effectively and
they come back in the fourth quarter and win that game.
Also amazingly successful at winning jump balls. Regardless of who
he was up against, he would win jump balls. And
I was thinking about this last night Jack before we
recorded this, about how Chris Paul. No, he hasn't won
(05:38):
a championship, but the number of playoff games he won
has to count for something. And we look at the
impact he's had, uh as we're taping as the last
couple of seasons with Oklahoma City, going there and then
coming to Phoenix and turning these teams that were not
really playoff contenders into playoff contenders and winning more playoff games,
(06:00):
and that has to count for something. He he doesn't
have all the hardware that some of the other guys
on his team had or would go on to have,
but this guy did a lot of winning and put
up a lot of impressive statistics. Yeah, Lebron, you know
we're recording this as Lebron's in the middle of an
injury and you don't know what's going to happen out
(06:22):
in that Western Conference. But you're right. I mean Chris Paul, uh,
he is really an elevator and I will always have
a soft spot for m J. I was working on
the story about twelve thirteen years ago. I had this
idea to do a story on last second shots, how
they're set up, who, what the strategy is. Does the
same guy always take him? And I don't. I can't
(06:44):
remember why I picked going to New Orleans. And I'll
be damned if Chris doesn't hit a second shot. I mean,
that never works out when you have this kind of
there's your lead, right, you had your lead. Oh man,
I walked into the locker room. I'll never forget this
Chris Paul like as this big smile. I knew because
(07:05):
I had talked to him before the game about it,
and it was pretty extraordinary. I want to ask you
one other thing, though, about Dwight Howard and what you
just said about him. This is on me a little bit,
I guess I never I've never seen a great player
with great numbers who's been as kind of roundly trashed
(07:25):
as Dwight, and I've sort of. And and by the way,
he's still playing and now he's you know, still contributing
with the seventies sixers. And he stayed down long enough,
I think to be become likable. Like I think, think
about how acrimonious the split was when he left the Lakers,
and they loved him in the twenties twenties season. Laker
fans loved him when he came back and helped them
(07:46):
win a championship. You know, he's he's a guy that's
better suited apparently as as the as a supporting cast.
He he wasn't quite cut out to be the guy.
But even though he had monster numbers, you know, he
was a ay, I think he was twenty two and
fourteen guy the season of the redeemed team. But as
we're gonna see in these games, we're gonna talk about
(08:06):
it a little bit. Um he's not He doesn't assume
like a back to the basket, throw it into him
position because he never had sort of a signature move
and he couldn't really face up, and you couldn't you know,
and you couldn't put him at the free throw line.
So maybe all those reasons I'm sort of doing a
maya culpan. Now, I really was not kind to Dwight Howard,
(08:29):
but I'm looking at these numbers you've dug up, and
I guess I should have been a nicer guy to him. Well,
for some reason, we didn't let him do By we,
I mean the media and the fans and social media,
we just didn't let him be himself. And he was
an outsized personality, and he did like to have fun.
And he's the type of guy that would go over
(08:52):
and as he's on his way to check it into
the game, maybe there's a fan sitting courtside with a
tub of popcorn, and he would reach in and grab
some popcorn, and we'd also, what are you doing. You're
you can't be grabbing popcorn and you've got a game
to play. But if Lebron did something like that, would say, oh,
look at Lebron interacting with the fans right right right.
And and so his his goofiness, his playfulness, And we
(09:14):
asked that of our athletes, and we want them to
be characters. We don't want them to be robots. And
here he was not only a player with the personality,
a big man with the personality, with the playful personality,
which the lack of that playful personality had gotten everyone
from wil Chamberlain the Kareem Abdul Jabbar on the wrong
side of the ledger with the fans and media right
and and he did so many things that we asked
(09:37):
of everyone else. But when Dwight Howard did it, for
some reason, everybody turned on him and hated for it,
in part because Jack he didn't have the results first.
And remember Lebron was hated for a year, and then
he goes to Miami, and well, he was hated when
he went to Miami, and then he wins a championship
and the playful aspect of him comes back and everyone
(09:59):
loved him. And remember the time a fan hits a
half court shot and Lebron comes running out the out
of the heat huddle and he tackles him at half court.
And if he had done that a year earlier, everyone
probably would have said, why wasn't he in the huddle
listening to the coach poster drop of play? And instead
he does this, and it's like, oh, look at Lebron,
He's having fun. Isn't this great? And it Dwight is
(10:21):
really a lesson in how we allow some people to
do things that we don't allow others to do. That's true,
I will, I will, I will accept that, but I'll
still never love him. But go ahead, move on, move on,
Let's talk about Lebron. Speaking of Lebron. To watch Lebron
at this stage in his career, Jack, if you remember,
it was just breathtaking. And I'm sure you had the
(10:43):
opportunity as I did. I was fortunate enough to be
able to watch him from either courtside or near the court,
and taking advantage of our press passes, we got the
chance to see up close a man that big, move
that fast. And when I used to try to urge
people to see Lebron, if at all possible, at whatever costs,
(11:04):
to see him in person, to try to if you
could obtain a good seat, to see him in person,
because that was a phenomenon unlike anything else I've seen
in my two plus decades covering league. I'm wondering if
you can compare to anything. And you're with three four
decades of cover in the NBA, maybe five, but we'll
leave it at for No, there's nothing like Lebron. You know,
(11:26):
we will never get uh, we will never fully be
able to get that thing. Is he the best? He
will never be listed as a point guard. I mean
that is never gonna happen, even though he had the
damn ball in his hands during playoffs. As much as
like you know the line, there is Magic and Oscar Robertson.
(11:46):
They are the two big point guards. If you just
took someone conducting the offense facing the basket still has
his dribble. Come on, I love Magic. Lebron's the guy.
I mean yeah, I mean he was. He was Magic's vision,
Magic's passing ability, and let's talk about the pinpoint preciseness.
(12:09):
Another thing I got to see up close one time
during practice. There's an open practice session they had during
the NBA Finals at the Warrior's practice facility, and I
was able to stand behind like Channing Fry Chain Fries
in the corner and Lebron's throwing these passes out to
him as they're going through their scrimmage or their walk through,
and to be able to be right behind the player
(12:31):
and to see the player's perspective as Lebron would throw
to him. And he doesn't do this quite as well
now as he did in his prime, but he would
deliver the past, precisely in the right place to make
it easiest for his teammates to catch and shoot. It
was just right on target. The shooting pocket pocket is
what the players call it, and Lebron would zip that
(12:52):
ball right into the player's shooting pocket. If you go
back and watch him at his peak, notice when his
teammates catch the ball, they don't have to maneuver it anywhere.
It's right where it needs to be. The other thing
watching him here in these two thousand eight games, seeing
him in that Team USA jersey, the cut of the
jersey reminds me of his first stint in Cleveland. You
can kind of identify Lebron the different stages of his
(13:14):
career also by the looseness or tightness of his jerseys.
And this is still first Cleveland Lebron wearing his jersey
the same way he did in that same type of jersey.
Members a different jersey in his first stint in Cleveland
than than they had in the second stint in Cleveland.
And the shorts were huge back then. They would drop
below the knee. I can't get over how big they were.
(13:36):
But it's not just the look, it's the way he plays.
He he was always facing the basket. He was always driving.
This is the Cleveland Lebron, right. He he wasn't shooting
outside very much. They were giving him the outside shot
in the NBA games and plenty of times during Olympics
they just said, here's that shot. And back then, Chris Bosh,
who was still a back to the basket player, Um,
(13:57):
Lebron evolved that back to the basket style that you
see now where he'll her back guys and he'll shoot
that fade away or or dreamshake moves like that. But
back then, Chris Bosh was playing with his back to
the basket, and he was envious that Lebron always got
to play facing the basket. And I was always been
jealous of Lebron during his career because you know, everybody's like, man,
(14:21):
oh wow, this is so incredible. He does this. Of
course he does it. He's been looking at offenses and yeah,
he's been looking at the offenses with the ball in
his hands, facing the whole court, the whole half court,
for his entire lifetime of his career. Because he started
out as a point guard. As a big I'm like, damn, dude,
(14:41):
I don't even know what's behind me. You know what
I mean, if I go up to the elbows really
over and I don't get to see it from that angle,
you know. So him being able to see the offensive
flow of the game all the time. See when somebody's
face is like, Okay, let's get let's get let's get shot. Now,
(15:03):
let's get see me a shot. I see the look
on his face. Let's get it to him. He's always
been a facilitator and a distributor, and with that said,
he can always create his own shot, you know. So
asking him to sacrifice um to move the ball for
the sake of moving the ball, I mean, he's he's
always gonna be for it. But I would argue that
Lebron earned that right by being such a good playmaker.
(15:24):
And Jack, I'm wondering where does Lebron fit in among
the bigger players who have essentially been point guards. So
Lebron is listed as a small forward, but he runs
the point and when you compare him to others of
his height range, how does Lebron fit in the lineage?
And who else can we really compare him to. I
was struck by the way I remember when we're doing
that interview with Chris Bosh, and you do not hear
(15:49):
other players use the word jealous. You know, it really
struck me when Chris it's a it's a factor both
of you know, the magnificence of Lebron, but also Bosh,
you know, thinking thinking like that. You know he thought
he thought a little differently. Um. I can remember during
the playoffs. This is probably why I'm doing a podcast
(16:10):
instead of coaching an NBA team. But I used to
scream take him off, take Lebron off of the ball
once in a while. I mean, what do you want
the guy to do. He's gonna have to get the key,
reeb He's got to score. He's gonna have to find
the right guy. If he does give it up, he's
gonna have to get the key rebound. He was one
of the best late game rebounders I've ever seen. If
(16:33):
you look at his games, the rebounds he gets, like
in the final four or five minutes are amazing. And
he's gonna have to lock down somebody on defense. And
I always thought he was more effective. Let somebody else
bring it up and get him to it. Get it
to him maybe at the elbow. So when you factor
everything in the responsibilities that he had, and he's also
(16:56):
going to run that offense. As I said, he's never
gonna to be listed as a point guard the way
that magic point guard PG. That's what he is. That
is not Lebron. I guess he goes down as a
small forward. But there's nobody like him Ja, particularly as
you mentioned, since he got a three point shot and
(17:18):
a and a step back. Uh, nobody like him. Michael.
One year they kind of put Michael on the ball,
you know that Michael was yeah, and he starts and
he could have been it. It wasn't exactly the same.
I think Lebron stands apart in that class as a
guy running the offense facing the basket, who can shoot outside,
(17:39):
who can take it to the basket, like nobody. Uh,
you know, I don't even know who compared him to.
I guess Michael, and then find a guy also, there's
nobody like Lebron. And the same thing Jack is. This
team comes smack in the middle of a golden era
of really traditional size point guards. Maybe they didn't all
play the position traditionally, but you had Chris Paul and
(18:02):
Darren Williams who were both on this team, and and
we we had a great debate going on and who
was the best point guard? And Chris and and Darren
were certainly in the midst of that. Jason Kidd, who
was on this team, not really in the debate as
much at this point. He probably held the title earlier
in the decade. Uh then you had Steve Nash, who's Canadian,
so he wasn't eligible to play on Team USA. Rajon
(18:25):
Rondo was the reigning champion, the point guard on the
Boston Celtics that year, and then Russell Westbrook had just
been drafted by the still Seattle SuperSonics as they were
on their way to Oklahoma City. Derek Rose gets drafted
in two thousand nine by the Bulls with the number
one pick. So this field, this this pack for the
title of best point guard in the NBA gets even
(18:46):
more crowded. And it's amazing to think that here's Darren
Williams on this team. The twelve best players are the
best team that we could assemble at the United States
And at that point he had yet to make an
All Star team, and it was a function of just
how many great players there were at that position. So
he qualifies for this team, and yet he hadn't made
an All Star team yet. Yeah, and they you know,
(19:07):
they got they got through this selection process Jay without
a lot of uh controversy. I mean when I look
back and I did some I did some research. I
talked to some some people today kind of on background,
and I said, well, who was piste off that they
didn't make it? Because in oh seven, oh six, oh seven,
We've talked about this before. You had some other guys
(19:29):
floating around. You had uh you know, agent double zero,
you had Gilbert Arenas, you had and when I was
the two I was most surprised about was Chauncey, Billups
and Paul Pierce. But Paul had kind of taken himself
out because of injuries. Uh maybe he wasn't at the
peak of his career and had been on that World
Championship team in two thousand two that finished in you know,
(19:52):
a millionth place in Indianapolis. But uh, and lamar odom
it was a great national team player. But even they
were not pissed off when the guards were Jay Kid, Uh,
Chris Paul and Darren Williams because uh, Chauncey played later.
Chauncey played in two thousand ten for the USA basketball.
So one of the great underrated things about this team
(20:15):
was able to assemble these guys and like you said that,
you know, Darren Williams could have been considered a little
bit of a surprise, but hey, he absolutely belonged. And
at that point you could get an argument as to whether, hey,
who do you want him or Chris Paul Right, there
are arguments on about who should be on the team,
(20:37):
and they were. It was just a fun argument, a
great debate to have. Trust me, we got a lot
of mileage on it on those ESPN debate shows on
who was the best point guard in the NBA, and
it reminded me I missed this, Jack. We don't have
these musical debates anymore, like who's a better singer Whinney
Houston and Mariah Carey, or who's the best drummer? Um,
you know, best singer all time? Of course, there's no
(20:59):
debate as Aretha frank And it's amazing that it's such
a subjective field. Music is so much more subjective than sports.
But you're not gonna get an argument there. Aretha Franklin
is the greatest pop singer of all time. But you
could have the contemporaries Whitney versus Mariah best guitarist, right,
I we we just don't have those arguments anymore. And
that that best point guard debate reminded me of that
(21:22):
Whitney and Maria. I. You know, I'm my daughter in
laways gonna kill me because she plays Mariah Carey the
Christmas Mariah Carey song from December one until January one.
But jeez, I'm just not seeing that. Whitney Houston seems
to be in a class a buff. Well. My thing
is Mariah had the better voice, Whitney was a better singer.
(21:44):
I'd be willing to spend another hour on this if
you want to, but I might be a separate podcast.
But back to basketball, people would would generally rank Chris
Paul ahead of Darren Williams, but Darren would always kill
him head to head. The numbers wouldn't even be close
when they when they were matched up against each other.
And uh, we asked Darren about that. He he was
(22:04):
gentle about that, but we we did ask him about
that internal competition on this team between him and Chris Paul.
I think it was a friendly rivalry, you know, because
I had known I had known c P since college um.
You know, we went to Nike camp and Jordan campus
counselors as college counselors and met each other there. We
played against each other his sophomore year, my junior year
(22:26):
one of the first games of the season, and so
who won. Um we did? We did um and we uh.
We kept in touch and and then you know, throughout
the first couple of years in the NBA, we stayed friends.
And when he came in town, we go eat, and
when I came in town, we go eat, hang out.
And so but when that you know, we stepped on
(22:48):
the court, it was it was always competitive. You know.
I always wanted to beat him and he always wanted
to beat me, and so it was just kind of
a friendly rivalry from that moment on. You're listening to
Kobe Lebron and radeem Keith, Jay and I will be
back in a minute. You know, probably was a smart
(23:15):
move by UH coach k that he took. He took
that right out of the discussion will it be Chris
or will it be Darren by starting Jay Kidd And
it was really a brilliant move. And I think Jay
quite possibly my favorite stat of the entire Olympic experience.
(23:37):
They played eight games in Beijing, the Redeemed Team did.
Jason Kidd started every game. Now we all know he
I think he only averaged twelve thirteen minutes. He took
seven shots. He took seven shots in eight games and
he made six of them. And there's a moment in
(23:59):
one of the game games Uh, you know, it was
another blowout. He's dribbling down court to get it started.
Yet is usual pretty good pace. You know, Jason played,
he got him, he got him gone. You're not that
not that uh, you know, Lebron and Kobe needed to
be revved up, but Jason got them going in their tempo.
He is dribbling up the court. That happened to be
a slow moment. They are backed off from him. They
(24:22):
were like twenty feet away from him, and you can
see Jason just stop and dribble and go, oh shit,
I gotta shoot this, you know, and he uh and
he drains it and uh, boy talked about somebody knowing
their role. That really uh, that really knocked me out.
Seven shots over eight games for a starter. And the
(24:43):
amazing thing is he developed into a more than decent
three point shooter. In fact, he's in the top ten
all time and three point shots made, which is one
of the more remarkable adjustments. I would put that up
there with Karl Malone becoming a great free throw shooter
after he was abysmal at the line when he first
got into the league. But Jason Kidd developed and it
(25:03):
really starts. I'd say if you look at the split
after this, uh, this time period in two thousand and eight,
with with this team, but sensing where the league was going,
he needed to become a better three point shooter, and
so he winds up. By the time he retired, he
was at top ten in the history of the league
and made three pointers. Kid was just such a smart player.
I mean, we've used this on and on about this team,
(25:27):
Lebron's basketball, Like you, Chris Paul, Jason Kidd is right
up there, and you talk about somebody who knew exactly
and remember when we first started talking about him, he
was surprised when Jerry Colangelo, the Godfather, asked him to
be on this team. And you talk about somebody that
from moment one knew his role. It was Jason Kidd.
(25:49):
My job was to you know, pick up, you know,
set the tone and set the table for us defensively,
um by picking up and getting guys to come up
with me, um and understand that that was going to
be one of our strengths is that, you know, steal
the ball, create turnovers, playing the open court, and have
fun doing it. And then I would go sit on
(26:10):
the bench and uh and let the younger legs take over.
And my job again was to, you know, on the bench,
you know, make sure that we cheered for one another,
because it's easy when it's forty to eighty to just
sit there and start looking in the stands. But I
thought the guys did a great job for cheering for
one another, and uh, I was again responsible to make
(26:33):
sure that guys were doing that. Meanwhile, the opposite of
Jason Kidd's role was Dwayne Wade. Instead of starting and
facilitating for Kobe and Lebron, Wade plays on the second unit,
where he had the freedom and even the mission to
be the focal point with those two stars out. And
you could argue that the second unit was what really
said apart Team USA and most of these games because
(26:54):
many of these countries had multiple NBA players and their
starting lineup, the Redeemed team had multiple NBA All Stars
coming off the bench. And that came up when Carlos
to Delfino, who was on the Argentina team, had a
conversation with Chris Boss. That Boss told us about Carlos.
Delfino's a good friend of mine and a teammate um
(27:15):
in Toronto, and he was telling me, He's like, yeah, man,
it's cool. You know, we already know it's gonna be
a tough game. But then you guys five guys out
and a whole other five comes in and it's Dwayne
Oh you damn Chris, Paul Darrenly and damn dude, you know,
and we were we were picking up full court, we
were pressing, we were playing fast, you know it scos
(27:37):
you man. I mean, you see how talented guys were.
And I always tell people that was some of the
best basketball I've ever seen Dwayne Waite play like. He
was incredible, Like I mean, instant right away. He's not
gonna miss too many. He's everywhere on the court. He
was incredible that year. And I remember just, you know,
(27:58):
just just being happy of having that luxury just to
kind of playoff guys, you know, and just to see
how really how talented guys are, what their work ethic
is and all these things and just to be able
to take part in that and have a good summer
with it. And Wade actually led the team in scoring
in two thousand and eight. Then it was Lebron, then Kobe,
(28:20):
and fourth is Carmelo Anthony. And the more Carmelo played
in the Olympics over the years, the more the Olympics
seem to bring out the best version of him. There
was Hoodie Carmelo, Hoodie Melo, and also Olympic mellow. And
when we talked to to Melow, the first thing I
asked him about was that phenomenon of Olympic mellow. Just
playing with with great players, right and playing you know,
(28:41):
being in a great situation and really just being able
to just kind of focus on one thing, right. I mean,
everybody bought something different too, the Olympic teams and you know,
and and at that point in time, my role was
that you know that that stretched for who can who
can shoot? Who you know, who who to stress the floor.
I mean when you play with guys you know the Klobe's,
(29:03):
Lebron and Cps and you know those every those guys
just like just get in when you're fit in right,
just get open, somebody somebody going to farm. And of
course Carmelo Anthony and Jim Behi I'm an assistant coach
on this team, are forever linked because Carmelo led Syracuse
to their first national championship under Beehim in two thousand three.
Jim's son, Betty Beheim, who had the cues on a
(29:25):
pretty nice tournament, run himself in he was born and Jack,
I'm wondering if he were born four years later, would
he be named Carmelo. It's quite possible. You know, they
do practice at the Carmelo Anthony Center, which I believe.
I believe Melo UH parted with three million dollars for that.
(29:47):
But when you think of somebody a one year guy,
or maybe not even a one year guy, but somebody
associated a player associated with an n c A A championship,
you know, like one guy, um boy, you'd be harder
pressed to find somebody more than UH than Carmelo Anthony
(30:09):
and Syracuse on that n c A championship team. I mean,
they had other good players, but he really carried that
team and Jim never forgot it and never will. Over
the years. You know, I've been pretty close to Jim.
We've had a lot of conversations. I wasn't always kind
to Carmelo and some of my assessments, uh, do not
(30:32):
do that in front of Jim Beheim, off the record,
under sodium pentethal whatever. Jim is not saying anything negative
about Carmelo Anthony. And you know what, I understand that.
I mean, that guy gave you a championship at a
time when you weren't supposed to, uh, when you weren't
supposed to win it. And here is Jim talking about
(30:54):
his uh, one of his favorite guys. Ever. First of all,
he's good in international ball. It's a little different, and
he's a good international player because of the way he
plays and how he can score, make the three, to
pull up, post up whatever. But the thing that's interesting,
I had to fight to get Mellow on this team.
That's the one thing I did. They you know, he
(31:16):
was not well regarded at that point in time. There
was a lot of talk and I had I really
talked to Jerry and Mike a long time about Carmelo
because I knew he is a perfect Olympic type player,
offensive player, and and he showed what's interesting And I
(31:39):
always hated the NBA people who wrote about him. He
should and he can play with the team. Well he's
when he's went Denver in the New York next. He
had to take all the shots they had nobody else,
He had to do everything. There was something about Carmelo
in this. On the one hand, it's hard to explain.
You're right, I mean he was probably, you know, certainly
(31:59):
not a top three. You could argue that he wasn't
even the fourth best player. But there was something about
Carmelo in that lineup of a national team guy that
got them, uh started on the wing. Well, Jack, I
will say this. I mean he was a guy. You know,
Kobe Lebron Wade. We've seen they were the best players
on championship teams, right they they could have that ability.
(32:21):
If they hadn't done it yet, they would go on
to do it. Carmelo could be the best player on
a playoff team, which is not nothing, right, and he
had demonstrated that early in Denver, and he got even
in Nix into the playoffs one year. So you could
have Carmelo, especially at that time, be your main guy
and you were going to be a playoff team, no
question about it. And the other thing, you know, I
(32:42):
was I was watching the next episode, which we're gonna
set up. We're gonna talk about the gold medal game,
and there's something else. There's four or five minutes to go,
and a lot of times Carmelo was not on the
floor because, as you mentioned, that second unit could really
d it up, could really mix things up. You know,
he wanted Chris Bosh in there, and there's Carmelo. I'm
(33:04):
not saying somebody should get extra credit for being a
great teammate, but that's when it came across to me
watching Carmelo in those final minutes, uh of the game,
and he was just such an integral part of Team USA.
When you name when you're gonna name the greatest players,
(33:25):
the greatest Team USA players, boy uh, Carmelo Anthony is
right near the top. And again he had to do
it in this case with UM. It's not an easy
adjustment to go from taking twenty shots a game to
maybe now you're only getting up half that and UM,
his efficiency, particularly the next Olympic team that's when he
(33:48):
was at his best, was actually UM with maybe a
better team because you've got you got Kevin Durant there
uh in addition to all these other main guys, Carmelo's
shooting percentages just go off the chart in twelve. But
he he's effective and pretty efficient here in in two
(34:08):
thousand and eight as well, and obviously it was a
key component of this championship group, Jack, what are some
of the other things that this stand out watching these games? Um?
One thing for me, I was a little surprised how
much they went into the paint to uh Dwight Howard.
They you know, they treated him like a traditional post
up center and they throw the ball into him a
(34:29):
little a little surprising to me. But as we go
back and remember he was the best center in the
NBA at that point. What else is as you watched
and rewatched these games from two thousand and eight stood
out to you? Well, Um, the number one thing that
I wrote down, that's what you said about Lebron That
just electric athleticism. I think another thing was we had
talked earlier about how comfortable Kobe was Laker Kobe l
(34:52):
a Laker, Kobe on the wing and you know, he
just seems like a wing guy. And how many times
they found Kobe on the Kobe on the wing and
the other thing that struck me as team wise about him.
They were, they were they could be prone to go
to sleep. Jay, they were you know, they the teams
(35:14):
that they played up until Spain um were you know,
they didn't get the best competition, but they would let
some teams back in. And there was one point it
was against uh Angola. For God's sake, you know, Showsky
you could look at him once a while on the
bench and he would be boiling at him. And as
(35:35):
we're going to see in the Spain game, he throws
out a couple of left bonds. But in the third period,
they're kind of you know, as to to use a
quote from bull Dorm, they're kind of lolly gagging their
way through the game against Angola. Showsky puts them in
a half court trap, and I was in Wade Lebron
Darren and Chris Paul. I mean, if they would have
(35:57):
played that half court trap for like eight minutes, I
don't think Angola would have got the ball above above
mid court. And another one other thing. Jay was at
the game against Greece and I should have been more
uh assiduous about checking whether the exact players from the
two thousand and six Greece team that beat them in
(36:20):
the World Championships. That was such a big deal for
this team. They're playing Greece in Beijing, and they were
so aggressive from the beginning of the game. They never
let them get into any perimeter pick and roll. And
once again it was Lebron. It was especially Lebron, and
just to go off on him again doing my research, um,
(36:44):
I was surprised at how few times Lebron has been
an All NBA defensive player. Was I missing something there?
He he you go back to two thousand thirteen, he
was a second team All NBA offensive guy. Did I
miss something? Isn't he a great defensive player or doesn't
(37:05):
get recognized or am I missing something? He was and
he was at that point, especially the peak of his
defensive ability in Miami. I think Eric Spoelstra, the Miami
he coach, used to calm one through five because you
can put Lebron defensively on any position from the point
guard to the center. And he was a key part
of that team's defense, especially as they started going smaller
(37:27):
and didn't have traditional I remember they had Joel Anthony
as a traditional big man at the beginning and then
get away from that in part because you can get
away with that with Lebron's thanks to Lebron's ability to
guard so many people. So you you had that then.
But then as he goes back to Cleveland and then
especially by the time he gets to l A with
the Lakers, you could see him taking times. Count the
(37:51):
number of times you see him dive on the floor
during the regular season or even his trademark chased down
blocks during the regular seats, and you'd stop seeing that.
So it was the right strategy. He's conserving his energy
for the playoffs. But as you know, Jack, the way
and the time NBA players conservat their energies on defense.
(38:13):
So by conserving energy throughout the regular season, Lebron's ranking
in his status as a defensive player dwindled. But he
can still bring it out when he wants to. He
just doesn't choose to do it as much. Yeah, I
guess he was never He wasn't that Kobe Jordan's lockdown guy.
He wasn't locking down the opposing to guard or switching
(38:33):
off on the point guard. He makes a play by
the way during the Olympics. Uh, I think it's you know,
I've lost track it might have been in the Grease
game where he makes a He just catches a layup
with both hands without goaltending. Now, it didn't come from
Kobe Bryant. It came from a smaller player. But Lebron
chases it down, jumps up in the air and catches
(38:57):
the ball with two hands, and it wasn't even close
to a uh wasn't even close to a goalten. A
final moment though, this could have been this in my
top five Olympic moments. Second quarter of the Germany game
against Germany. My god, what an atrocious team that was.
Dirk Nowitzki couldn't have gotten out of Beijing fast enough.
The US beat them a hundred and six to fifty seven.
(39:21):
I mean they should have used debtl of shrimp, you know, somewhere. Anyway,
in the second quarter, Kobe gets and by this time
they're they're gone. You know, this is nothing. We were
just fooling around like bird. Once in a while, I
used to I think I'll shoot left handed the rest
of the game. You know what, let me just shoot
some left hand a shot. Kobe gets a no look
(39:42):
pass from Kid, comes across the lane and says, what
the hell does like a classic hook shot, I mean
a real not a jump hook. You know, he wasn't
facing the basket. He did that kind of Maybe Joe
Jellybean Bryant had done one thirty five years earlier. I
don't know, But can you honestly remember beside Kareem and
(40:05):
not counting, you know, Kevin Garnett jump hook or something
like that. Can you think of anybody doing a or
the magic Johnson baby baby sky hook? Can you think
of a hook shot somebody did? I can think literally
of one Jack and it was in two thousand. I'm
on the road with the Lakers and they're playing in
Milwaukee and Ray Allen shoots a hook shot in the
(40:26):
lid the They're so intimidated. The Milwaukee Bucks is so
intimidated by Shack. This is at his ferocious best. This
is Shack's envy PCs and this is when he's fully
committed on defense, and the Bucks just wanted no part
of him. And Ray Allen all time great jump shooters,
still right now the career leader in three point shots made.
(40:46):
He goes into the lane. Most guys were just dribbling
in and dribbling out as soon as they saw Shack.
Ray Allen, of all people, goes into the lane and
shoots a hook shot. I'll never forget, Jack, I asked,
did it go in? Of course, Helen doesn't. Kobe went in.
I didn't make this point. Kobe went in, by the way,
Kobe Kobe cook shop winning. He could have made more
(41:07):
if he had wanted to take more, but he just
didn't want to. But Ray Allen takes one and misses it.
And after the game, I'm in the Milwaukee locker room
and I said, I go to Sam Counsel with my
favorite people in the NB. Said Sam, you guys, Uh,
I mean Ray Allen shooting the hook shots and you
guys didn't seem to want to take a lot of
shots in the paint. What's up with the Sam goes
(41:27):
see it? They got a second in, motherfucker, Sam Cosell.
But besides that, uh, you know, I don't I don't
have much else from the games until we get to Spain.
We're gonna deconstruct that Spain game. And I wondered, how
you know I'm betting Coach k still spent a lot
(41:48):
of uh freaking time there in the film room. Yeah, Jack,
I mean they win their games by an average score
of a hundred and six and seventy eight, and yet
coach k is still studying game tape like a madman.
And let's just say that didn't fit in with Jim
Beheim's idea of how they should be spending their time
in Beijing. Well, I would go out all day. My
kids were there, Mike would sleep all day. We would
(42:10):
play the game at nine o'clock, get back at eleven,
one o'clock we start watching take So now it's four
in the morning. I've been up since seven. I felt
I went on the floor. I never did that, right
on the floor. They wanted to give me a seatbelt.
Jim could sleep, though. I can tell you that that
there was storing during the year. I was doing a
(42:32):
book with him. Um he had one thing and the
first first day we were doing it, they were going
to play a game or something. I said, well, I'll
come over in the morning. We'll do some stuff. No,
I said, well, what are you doing? He goes, I
just sleep today of the game. That's what I do.
I don't want to see you, don't come over. That's
what I do. But you know, it's surprising that Beheim
could go anywhere by the way, given how restrictive things
(42:53):
were uh in Beijing, and the person I had to
deal with it the most was Craig Miller, who was
USA Basketball's chief communications officer, and he had been in
charge of the program, as we said before, he had
done that job before the Dream Team, And here he
is describing being in Beijing in two thousand eight. Yeah,
I think Beijing, it was really the restrictive government, um.
(43:19):
And treatment of the non mainstream as you will. Pollution
was certainly m a concern, but if you remember, Beijing
shut down kind of its industrial areas and the weather
actually during the Olympics was beautiful and it was blue skies,
you know, and not at all like it it what
it was when I went for some some site reviews
(43:41):
and some set up meetings. UM. But I think the
primary one of two in two thousand and eight, it
was really the the government, uh, and it's uh controlling
factor and in fact that was the case. It's the
only Olympics where I was told one rooms we would
have media interviews in at the hotel. It was you know,
it's it's really the first home. It was the first
(44:03):
Olympics where I had to supply twenty four hours in advance,
a list of media that would be coming to do interviews,
and they would approve it. So like if the USA
Today or Sports Illustrated wanted to come and do an
interview with d Way, I'd have to put him on
the list, have it in twenty four hours in advance,
and the government would review it. I'll prove it, and
(44:23):
then they would tell me that I would use meeting
room see and uh, you know we always joked that
was so they could hear the whole interview room. Um, firsthand,
you're listening to Kobe Lebron and of a deem team.
We'll be back after this. But I guess the good
(44:47):
thing about the government being so restrictive and controlling every
aspect of what went on in China and in Beijing
during those Olympics was that they were so restrictive they
could even control the smog. They limited the travel and
the access and so the the air pollution went down.
The same thing happened in l A in eighty four.
(45:08):
Jack I was living in l A. Peter uberof controlled
the weather. But what they did was well, first of all,
they scared so many people off. The people fled the city.
And then they had they had the companies that worked
out that had their offices downtown. They had him stagger
their work schedules, so you just didn't have as many
cars on the road, uh, polluting the the atmosphere. And Jack,
(45:30):
those are two the most glorious weeks in the history
of Los Angeles. The weather was great, there was no smog,
and there was no traffic. It was great. Um, let's
go back to two thousand and eight. Let's discuss the
players that we haven't talked to or talked about over
the course of this podcast. Uh, running down real quick,
Carlos Boozer. He was a player that you could find
then in two thousand and eight that you wouldn't really
(45:51):
see too much in today's NBA. And he was a
six ft nine power player, not a stretch four. He
made one three pointer in fourteen at hemps in his career,
and you had it was a transition. So at that time, Jack,
you had guys like Richard Lewis six nine, six ten,
guy who sat a lot of three pointers, but that
was still more of a novelty than the norm. But
(46:12):
but he was a power guy. Yeah, And I just
I loved I loved Carlos Boozer's game, but I do wonder,
you know, you got into that, I'm back to the
basket guy. He had probably played there from you know,
he played that Wayne college, and you just wonder if
he would have become, you know, something really really special,
if he would have got a face up game. But
(46:33):
you know that's twenty hid sight or is you know
that that's what that is. But I always thought maybe
he limited himself a little bit and he was not
able to find many minutes on this team. And another
guy who struggled to get playing time was Tayshaun Prince Um.
Now he was a defensive force arms had just went
(46:53):
on forever. It's funny how many guys, when you think
of their their highlight, it's defensive And I don't know.
Lebron had that amazing blocking Game seven to win the
championship for Cleveland. But there's still plenty of highlights for
le Bron that we think of Tassan Prince I would
say the highlight reel consists of one play that that
chasdown block that he had against Reggie Miller in the playoffs.
(47:14):
He was a four time All Defensive second Team member,
never average fifteen points per game and yet had a
long NBA career and found a place onto this team
as well. You know, here he is with Lebron and Kobe,
and in our interviews with people, you know j he
he always came up, you know, he was, oh, man,
(47:34):
I remember D'Antoni said it. We don't we're not running
the audio. But D'Antoni talked about him, Colangelo talked about him,
Mike Showski talked about him. He you know why, he
was just fit into that high i Q type of game.
He had one great moment in one of the games
he made a stepped in the passing lane. Uh, you know,
made a great one handed uh tomahawk dunk. But there
(47:58):
you can't play twelve guys, I mean nine, I would say, right, J.
Nine is kind of your limit on on any kind
of team. And that's just the way that it was.
And I'm not saying Taishawn could could should have got
more minutes, but he probably he certainly could have. The
way he fit in, it was good at least to
(48:18):
have the Pistons represented in this era. And of course
that is a major glare of the Dream Team in
ninety two was that Isaiah Thomas and his two championships,
and the Pistons two championships weren't represented. So at least
Taishan helps remind you when you go back and see
this of what the Pistons meant to that league, and
remember that group was a game away from being two
(48:39):
time champions. For seed, Wallace doesn't commit the unpardonable sin
leaving Robert big shot. I could still hear people screaming,
don't leave him. Can't leave big shot Robert ry alone
at a big moment in a playoff game, and that's
what he did to go double manager Nobli Uh. If
not for that, and even despite that, they still took
(49:01):
that series of seven games came within a game of
beating the Spurs, but the Spurs win Game seven at
home in two thousand five, they would have been back
to back champions. But even after that, the Miami Heat
still had to go through the Pistons UH to get
to the championship. In two thousand and six, Lebron James
had to go through them to get to the finals
in two thousand and seven, the Celtics had to go
(49:22):
through them in the conference finals to get to their championship.
In two thousand and eight. So let's not forget the Pistons,
and through Tashaun Prince, we can give them a little
shout out in the context of this redeemed team. Uh,
Michael read another player on that team an outside shooter. Uh,
it's funny we think of him as an outside shooter.
But he was only in the top ten of three
(49:42):
point shooting percentage twice and the last time was in
two thousand three, so long before this team. But they're
just weren't that many shooters around, American shooters around in
the league at that time. And then, sadly, he tore
up his left knee in January two thousand nine, and
then he retour those same ligaments a year and he
was basically done. And we really don't think or talk
(50:02):
about him that much. But at a time when you
needed a guy to shoot, now Jack, you have everyone
is expected to be able to shoot from every position.
Nikolayoki is expected to shoot three pointers. Your point guards
are expected to shoot three pointers. But at that time
and for that team, you needed a three point specialist.
And the problem for putting together Olympic basketball teams for
(50:25):
America is a lot of the best shooters weren't American
back then. Pages Toyakovitch and Hado Turkolu. Patio was one
of three players who made more than two hundred three
pointers that season in two thousand and eight, um so three.
He was one third of that two hundred club. In
twenty nineteen, which was the last time we had a
full NBA season, twelve players made more than two hundred
(50:49):
and so you just have more shooting available. You have
more players who can shoot, more Americans who can shoot
three pointers. But Michael Red was really a relic from
that era and that's how he wand up on that team. Yeah,
there was always that was a big fear. I remember
the Dream Team organization. That was the fear that it's
(51:09):
a forty minute game. Oh we started missing we And
that's why Chris Mullen, who in many ways you know,
hadn't one I'm trying to think who I would compare
him to on the on the Redeemed team, Uh, you know,
was an established player but hadn't won a championship. But
I as as I recall it, Chris Mullen was one of,
like Chuck Daly, first five guys that he wanted after
(51:32):
Jordan Pippo because he was a shooter. And as it
turns out, you know, uh, Kobe was such a good
probably didn't need him. But you know, Michael Read it
just it just speaks to the time, Jay. There are
many metrics about how the game has changed. And I've
talked endlessly about the Phoenix Suns. You know, my guys
(51:54):
from early in the Auts revolutionizing the league with the
number of three point attempts, and now they would be
near the bottom. Michael Read known, as you said, as
a h you know, an outside shooter with range. He
I looked us up, he would average about in his
most three point taking season, he didn't even average six
(52:19):
threes a game. He was around five four and a half.
And right now that would put him about in the
top sixty of three point shooters in the NBA. And
that's just an example of, you know, how the game,
how much the game has changed. So with this two
thousand and eight teen though, Kobe says, I'll handle that,
(52:40):
Michael Read, your services aren't needed. Kobe average six and
a half three point attempts per game in only twenty
three minutes. So he led the Redeemed team with fifty
three three point attempts made seventeen percentage um in eight games,
got a fifty three points. So Kobe decided he would
(53:00):
take on the three point shooting duties. So that's our
sort of final observations on this team is a look
at their run through pool play and and even uh
uh the metal Round. As we got into that, and
as we'll find out in our next episode, things got
a lot tighter after all that cruising and fun that
(53:22):
they had and sleeping that Jim Beeheim got in. Uh,
things were allowed to get a lot more serious. In
the gold medal game against Being Well, there was definitely
a lot of russure. We knew that was not gonna
be easy. Uh. You know, they always teamed uh you know,
these things like their best right in the best moments.
The things I remember is that you couldn't shake them.
(53:44):
You know, every time you get up like five or
six points, you think, okay, now you can bring it over.
And they did a big three or or hit a
couple of big three in a row, back back to
where we're scary State scary the whole game. The only
thing that was going through my mind was like, damn,
we can't stop these guys. You know what I mean,
we were. It was a spirited effort by both teams.
Who would they lean on to save the day. We'll
have all that more in the next episode of Kobe
(54:07):
Lebron and the Redeem Team. For now, I'm Jane and
I'm Jack McCallum. Thanks for listening. The Dream Team Tapes
Season two. Kobe Lebron and the Redeem Team is a
production of Diversion Podcasts in association with I Heart Radio.
For more podcasts for my Heart Radio, visit the I
(54:30):
Heart Radio app, Apple Podcasts, where wherever you get your podcasts.
This season is written and hosted by me, Jack McCallum
and j A. Dande. Executive producer Scott Waxman and Mark
Frances for Diversion podcast and Sean's High Toned for I
Heart Radio. Our editorial director is John Tuttle, Supervising producer
(54:52):
Brian Murphy, Legal producer Freddie Overseteghen editing, mixing and sound
designed by Mark Frances. For the Fields is our technical producer,
and our director of Marketing and business Development is Jacob Bronstein.
(55:13):
Diversion Podcasts
The Dream Team Tapes Season two. Kobe, Lebron and the
Redeem Team is a production of Diversion Podcasts in association
with I Heart Radio Diversion Podcasts. By now you know
(00:26):
our intro Jerry Colangelo with soundbites from Kobe Bryant, Lebron James,
and Carmelo Anthony. But this time we're gonna change it up.
Here's USA Basketball Boss Jerry Colangelo announcing the full roster
for the two thousand and eight Olympic Team. The twelve
players selected for the honor of representing the United States
in the two thousand and eight Beijing Olympic Games are
(00:50):
Carmelo Anthony of the Denver Nuggets, Carlos Boozer of the
Utah Jazz, Chris Bosh of the Toronto Raptors, Kobe Bryant
of the Los Angeles Lakers, Dwight Howard Orlando Magic, Lebron
(01:18):
James Cleveland Cavaliers, Jason Kidd Dallas Mavericks, Chris Paul New
Orleans Hornets, Tayshawn Prince Detroit Pistons, Michael Read Milwaukee Bucks,
(01:42):
Dwyane Wade Miami Heat, and Darren Williams Utah Jazz, and
I'm j A. Dande joined by Jack McCallum, and this
is episode nine of Kobe Lebron and the Redeemed Team.
We're calling it Cruising and Snoozing Teamy to say, cruises
through pool play at the Olympic Games and one assistant
(02:03):
coach has trouble staying awake. But Jack, let's start with
a quick look at the top of the roster that
Chalangelo just gave it, and it had ten members of
the two thousand and eight All Star teams there, so
this this elite crop of players from the NBA. Of course,
she had Kobe, who was the reigning m v P
it just won his first and only m v P
(02:24):
award earlier that spring, and then he would go on
to win the next two NBA finals MVPs Lebron James,
who would win the next two MVP awards. The Most
Valuable Player in two thousand nine in Chris Paul, who
was the MVP runner up in two thousand and eight.
He led the NBA and win shares in two thousand
eight for the analytics crowd. He also led the league
(02:47):
and assistant steals in two thousand nine. H Dwyane Wade
the two thousand six NBA Finals m v P the
NBA's leading score the season. After the Olympics in two
thousand eight oh nine and Dwight Howard. We forget about
the impact of Dwight Howard and how coveted he was
at that time. He was in the top five and
m VP voting every year from two thousand and eight,
(03:09):
Ton culminating as the runner up for the m v
P inn that award went to Derrick Rose, and after
these Olympics he wins the next three Defensive Player of
the Year awards. So, Jack, that's a sense for the
star power at the top of this roster. And I mean,
if you look at it, it's this is the elite
(03:29):
of the NBA at that time. A couple of things
strike me there, j And the first thing is, since
we make so many references to the the Dream Team,
if you took the top three players on a dream
team were uh, Jordan's Bird, Magic, but not at that time.
You know, Burden Bird retired the season after and Magic
was close to the end of his career. So I
(03:51):
would say the top three players on that team at
the time they were playing, you could disagree or agree with,
was Michael h Scottie Pippen, and Charles Barkley. We're gonna
get into later whether the Redeemed came, of course a
hopeless hypothetical. Could the redeem Team beat the Dream Team?
But could Superman beat up Batman? But you know, we love,
(04:12):
we love hypotheticals. Kobe Lebron and d Wade at the
top of this roster, that might be better. We don't
have time to deconstruct that because you do have the
Jordan's factor perhaps overweighing everything. But that's the first thing
that strikes me. The second Jay and I didn't remember
(04:33):
this till you, God bless you did the research. Chris
Paul m v P runner up in two thousand eight,
and uh, there's only been one m v P six
ft m v P in the history of the league,
and that was of course Alan Iverson to win runner
up of the m v P in in that time.
(04:54):
And to think of what a defensive presents Chris Paul
might be the best small defender, uh, in the history
of the league. And we're gonna see he was very
important to this team. But that really stuck out to me. Yeah,
and and later he would go on to defend Kevin
Durant in playoff games. I remember one time there was
(05:14):
a Clipper Oklahoma City Thunder series and they switched Chris
Paul on the Durant and he defended him effectively and
they come back in the fourth quarter and win that game.
Also amazingly successful at winning jump balls. Regardless of who
he was up against, he would win jump balls. And
I was thinking about this last night Jack before we
recorded this, about how Chris Paul. No, he hasn't won
(05:38):
a championship, but the number of playoff games he won
has to count for something. And we look at the
impact he's had, uh as we're taping as the last
couple of seasons with Oklahoma City, going there and then
coming to Phoenix and turning these teams that were not
really playoff contenders into playoff contenders and winning more playoff games,
(06:00):
and that has to count for something. He he doesn't
have all the hardware that some of the other guys
on his team had or would go on to have,
but this guy did a lot of winning and put
up a lot of impressive statistics. Yeah, Lebron, you know
we're recording this as Lebron's in the middle of an
injury and you don't know what's going to happen out
(06:22):
in that Western Conference. But you're right. I mean Chris Paul, uh,
he is really an elevator and I will always have
a soft spot for m J. I was working on
the story about twelve thirteen years ago. I had this
idea to do a story on last second shots, how
they're set up, who, what the strategy is. Does the
same guy always take him? And I don't. I can't
(06:44):
remember why I picked going to New Orleans. And I'll
be damned if Chris doesn't hit a second shot. I mean,
that never works out when you have this kind of
there's your lead, right, you had your lead. Oh man,
I walked into the locker room. I'll never forget this
Chris Paul like as this big smile. I knew because
(07:05):
I had talked to him before the game about it,
and it was pretty extraordinary. I want to ask you
one other thing, though, about Dwight Howard and what you
just said about him. This is on me a little bit,
I guess I never I've never seen a great player
with great numbers who's been as kind of roundly trashed
(07:25):
as Dwight, and I've sort of. And and by the way,
he's still playing and now he's you know, still contributing
with the seventies sixers. And he stayed down long enough,
I think to be become likable. Like I think, think
about how acrimonious the split was when he left the Lakers,
and they loved him in the twenties twenties season. Laker
fans loved him when he came back and helped them
(07:46):
win a championship. You know, he's he's a guy that's
better suited apparently as as the as a supporting cast.
He he wasn't quite cut out to be the guy.
But even though he had monster numbers, you know, he
was a ay, I think he was twenty two and
fourteen guy the season of the redeemed team. But as
we're gonna see in these games, we're gonna talk about
(08:06):
it a little bit. Um he's not He doesn't assume
like a back to the basket, throw it into him
position because he never had sort of a signature move
and he couldn't really face up, and you couldn't you know,
and you couldn't put him at the free throw line.
So maybe all those reasons I'm sort of doing a
maya culpan. Now, I really was not kind to Dwight Howard,
(08:29):
but I'm looking at these numbers you've dug up, and
I guess I should have been a nicer guy to him. Well,
for some reason, we didn't let him do By we,
I mean the media and the fans and social media,
we just didn't let him be himself. And he was
an outsized personality, and he did like to have fun.
And he's the type of guy that would go over
(08:52):
and as he's on his way to check it into
the game, maybe there's a fan sitting courtside with a
tub of popcorn, and he would reach in and grab
some popcorn, and we'd also, what are you doing. You're
you can't be grabbing popcorn and you've got a game
to play. But if Lebron did something like that, would say, oh,
look at Lebron interacting with the fans right right right.
And and so his his goofiness, his playfulness, And we
(09:14):
asked that of our athletes, and we want them to
be characters. We don't want them to be robots. And
here he was not only a player with the personality,
a big man with the personality, with the playful personality,
which the lack of that playful personality had gotten everyone
from wil Chamberlain the Kareem Abdul Jabbar on the wrong
side of the ledger with the fans and media right
and and he did so many things that we asked
(09:37):
of everyone else. But when Dwight Howard did it, for
some reason, everybody turned on him and hated for it,
in part because Jack he didn't have the results first.
And remember Lebron was hated for a year, and then
he goes to Miami, and well, he was hated when
he went to Miami, and then he wins a championship
and the playful aspect of him comes back and everyone
(09:59):
loved him. And remember the time a fan hits a
half court shot and Lebron comes running out the out
of the heat huddle and he tackles him at half court.
And if he had done that a year earlier, everyone
probably would have said, why wasn't he in the huddle
listening to the coach poster drop of play? And instead
he does this, and it's like, oh, look at Lebron,
He's having fun. Isn't this great? And it Dwight is
(10:21):
really a lesson in how we allow some people to
do things that we don't allow others to do. That's true,
I will, I will, I will accept that, but I'll
still never love him. But go ahead, move on, move on,
Let's talk about Lebron. Speaking of Lebron. To watch Lebron
at this stage in his career, Jack, if you remember,
it was just breathtaking. And I'm sure you had the
(10:43):
opportunity as I did. I was fortunate enough to be
able to watch him from either courtside or near the court,
and taking advantage of our press passes, we got the
chance to see up close a man that big, move
that fast. And when I used to try to urge
people to see Lebron, if at all possible, at whatever costs,
(11:04):
to see him in person, to try to if you
could obtain a good seat, to see him in person,
because that was a phenomenon unlike anything else I've seen
in my two plus decades covering league. I'm wondering if
you can compare to anything. And you're with three four
decades of cover in the NBA, maybe five, but we'll
leave it at for No, there's nothing like Lebron. You know,
(11:26):
we will never get uh, we will never fully be
able to get that thing. Is he the best? He
will never be listed as a point guard. I mean
that is never gonna happen, even though he had the
damn ball in his hands during playoffs. As much as
like you know the line, there is Magic and Oscar Robertson.
(11:46):
They are the two big point guards. If you just
took someone conducting the offense facing the basket still has
his dribble. Come on, I love Magic. Lebron's the guy.
I mean yeah, I mean he was. He was Magic's vision,
Magic's passing ability, and let's talk about the pinpoint preciseness.
(12:09):
Another thing I got to see up close one time
during practice. There's an open practice session they had during
the NBA Finals at the Warrior's practice facility, and I
was able to stand behind like Channing Fry Chain Fries
in the corner and Lebron's throwing these passes out to
him as they're going through their scrimmage or their walk through,
and to be able to be right behind the player
(12:31):
and to see the player's perspective as Lebron would throw
to him. And he doesn't do this quite as well
now as he did in his prime, but he would
deliver the past, precisely in the right place to make
it easiest for his teammates to catch and shoot. It
was just right on target. The shooting pocket pocket is
what the players call it, and Lebron would zip that
(12:52):
ball right into the player's shooting pocket. If you go
back and watch him at his peak, notice when his
teammates catch the ball, they don't have to maneuver it anywhere.
It's right where it needs to be. The other thing
watching him here in these two thousand eight games, seeing
him in that Team USA jersey, the cut of the
jersey reminds me of his first stint in Cleveland. You
can kind of identify Lebron the different stages of his
(13:14):
career also by the looseness or tightness of his jerseys.
And this is still first Cleveland Lebron wearing his jersey
the same way he did in that same type of jersey.
Members a different jersey in his first stint in Cleveland
than than they had in the second stint in Cleveland.
And the shorts were huge back then. They would drop
below the knee. I can't get over how big they were.
(13:36):
But it's not just the look, it's the way he plays.
He he was always facing the basket. He was always driving.
This is the Cleveland Lebron, right. He he wasn't shooting
outside very much. They were giving him the outside shot
in the NBA games and plenty of times during Olympics
they just said, here's that shot. And back then, Chris Bosh,
who was still a back to the basket player, Um,
(13:57):
Lebron evolved that back to the basket style that you
see now where he'll her back guys and he'll shoot
that fade away or or dreamshake moves like that. But
back then, Chris Bosh was playing with his back to
the basket, and he was envious that Lebron always got
to play facing the basket. And I was always been
jealous of Lebron during his career because you know, everybody's like, man,
(14:21):
oh wow, this is so incredible. He does this. Of
course he does it. He's been looking at offenses and yeah,
he's been looking at the offenses with the ball in
his hands, facing the whole court, the whole half court,
for his entire lifetime of his career. Because he started
out as a point guard. As a big I'm like, damn, dude,
(14:41):
I don't even know what's behind me. You know what
I mean, if I go up to the elbows really
over and I don't get to see it from that angle,
you know. So him being able to see the offensive
flow of the game all the time. See when somebody's
face is like, Okay, let's get let's get let's get shot. Now,
(15:03):
let's get see me a shot. I see the look
on his face. Let's get it to him. He's always
been a facilitator and a distributor, and with that said,
he can always create his own shot, you know. So
asking him to sacrifice um to move the ball for
the sake of moving the ball, I mean, he's he's
always gonna be for it. But I would argue that
Lebron earned that right by being such a good playmaker.
(15:24):
And Jack, I'm wondering where does Lebron fit in among
the bigger players who have essentially been point guards. So
Lebron is listed as a small forward, but he runs
the point and when you compare him to others of
his height range, how does Lebron fit in the lineage?
And who else can we really compare him to. I
was struck by the way I remember when we're doing
that interview with Chris Bosh, and you do not hear
(15:49):
other players use the word jealous. You know, it really
struck me when Chris it's a it's a factor both
of you know, the magnificence of Lebron, but also Bosh,
you know, thinking thinking like that. You know he thought
he thought a little differently. Um. I can remember during
the playoffs. This is probably why I'm doing a podcast
(16:10):
instead of coaching an NBA team. But I used to
scream take him off, take Lebron off of the ball
once in a while. I mean, what do you want
the guy to do. He's gonna have to get the key,
reeb He's got to score. He's gonna have to find
the right guy. If he does give it up, he's
gonna have to get the key rebound. He was one
of the best late game rebounders I've ever seen. If
(16:33):
you look at his games, the rebounds he gets, like
in the final four or five minutes are amazing. And
he's gonna have to lock down somebody on defense. And
I always thought he was more effective. Let somebody else
bring it up and get him to it. Get it
to him maybe at the elbow. So when you factor
everything in the responsibilities that he had, and he's also
(16:56):
going to run that offense. As I said, he's never
gonna to be listed as a point guard the way
that magic point guard PG. That's what he is. That
is not Lebron. I guess he goes down as a
small forward. But there's nobody like him Ja, particularly as
you mentioned, since he got a three point shot and
(17:18):
a and a step back. Uh, nobody like him. Michael.
One year they kind of put Michael on the ball,
you know that Michael was yeah, and he starts and
he could have been it. It wasn't exactly the same.
I think Lebron stands apart in that class as a
guy running the offense facing the basket, who can shoot outside,
(17:39):
who can take it to the basket, like nobody. Uh,
you know, I don't even know who compared him to.
I guess Michael, and then find a guy also, there's
nobody like Lebron. And the same thing Jack is. This
team comes smack in the middle of a golden era
of really traditional size point guards. Maybe they didn't all
play the position traditionally, but you had Chris Paul and
(18:02):
Darren Williams who were both on this team, and and
we we had a great debate going on and who
was the best point guard? And Chris and and Darren
were certainly in the midst of that. Jason Kidd, who
was on this team, not really in the debate as
much at this point. He probably held the title earlier
in the decade. Uh then you had Steve Nash, who's Canadian,
so he wasn't eligible to play on Team USA. Rajon
(18:25):
Rondo was the reigning champion, the point guard on the
Boston Celtics that year, and then Russell Westbrook had just
been drafted by the still Seattle SuperSonics as they were
on their way to Oklahoma City. Derek Rose gets drafted
in two thousand nine by the Bulls with the number
one pick. So this field, this this pack for the
title of best point guard in the NBA gets even
(18:46):
more crowded. And it's amazing to think that here's Darren
Williams on this team. The twelve best players are the
best team that we could assemble at the United States
And at that point he had yet to make an
All Star team, and it was a function of just
how many great players there were at that position. So
he qualifies for this team, and yet he hadn't made
an All Star team yet. Yeah, and they you know,
(19:07):
they got they got through this selection process Jay without
a lot of uh controversy. I mean when I look
back and I did some I did some research. I
talked to some some people today kind of on background,
and I said, well, who was piste off that they
didn't make it? Because in oh seven, oh six, oh seven,
We've talked about this before. You had some other guys
(19:29):
floating around. You had uh you know, agent double zero,
you had Gilbert Arenas, you had and when I was
the two I was most surprised about was Chauncey, Billups
and Paul Pierce. But Paul had kind of taken himself
out because of injuries. Uh maybe he wasn't at the
peak of his career and had been on that World
Championship team in two thousand two that finished in you know,
(19:52):
a millionth place in Indianapolis. But uh, and lamar odom
it was a great national team player. But even they
were not pissed off when the guards were Jay Kid, Uh,
Chris Paul and Darren Williams because uh, Chauncey played later.
Chauncey played in two thousand ten for the USA basketball.
So one of the great underrated things about this team
(20:15):
was able to assemble these guys and like you said that,
you know, Darren Williams could have been considered a little
bit of a surprise, but hey, he absolutely belonged. And
at that point you could get an argument as to whether, hey,
who do you want him or Chris Paul Right, there
are arguments on about who should be on the team,
(20:37):
and they were. It was just a fun argument, a
great debate to have. Trust me, we got a lot
of mileage on it on those ESPN debate shows on
who was the best point guard in the NBA, and
it reminded me I missed this, Jack. We don't have
these musical debates anymore, like who's a better singer Whinney
Houston and Mariah Carey, or who's the best drummer? Um,
you know, best singer all time? Of course, there's no
(20:59):
debate as Aretha frank And it's amazing that it's such
a subjective field. Music is so much more subjective than sports.
But you're not gonna get an argument there. Aretha Franklin
is the greatest pop singer of all time. But you
could have the contemporaries Whitney versus Mariah best guitarist, right,
I we we just don't have those arguments anymore. And
that that best point guard debate reminded me of that
(21:22):
Whitney and Maria. I. You know, I'm my daughter in
laways gonna kill me because she plays Mariah Carey the
Christmas Mariah Carey song from December one until January one.
But jeez, I'm just not seeing that. Whitney Houston seems
to be in a class a buff. Well. My thing
is Mariah had the better voice, Whitney was a better singer.
(21:44):
I'd be willing to spend another hour on this if
you want to, but I might be a separate podcast.
But back to basketball, people would would generally rank Chris
Paul ahead of Darren Williams, but Darren would always kill
him head to head. The numbers wouldn't even be close
when they when they were matched up against each other.
And uh, we asked Darren about that. He he was
(22:04):
gentle about that, but we we did ask him about
that internal competition on this team between him and Chris Paul.
I think it was a friendly rivalry, you know, because
I had known I had known c P since college um.
You know, we went to Nike camp and Jordan campus
counselors as college counselors and met each other there. We
played against each other his sophomore year, my junior year
(22:26):
one of the first games of the season, and so
who won. Um we did? We did um and we uh.
We kept in touch and and then you know, throughout
the first couple of years in the NBA, we stayed friends.
And when he came in town, we go eat, and
when I came in town, we go eat, hang out.
And so but when that you know, we stepped on
(22:48):
the court, it was it was always competitive. You know.
I always wanted to beat him and he always wanted
to beat me, and so it was just kind of
a friendly rivalry from that moment on. You're listening to
Kobe Lebron and radeem Keith, Jay and I will be
back in a minute. You know, probably was a smart
(23:15):
move by UH coach k that he took. He took
that right out of the discussion will it be Chris
or will it be Darren by starting Jay Kidd And
it was really a brilliant move. And I think Jay
quite possibly my favorite stat of the entire Olympic experience.
(23:37):
They played eight games in Beijing, the Redeemed Team did.
Jason Kidd started every game. Now we all know he
I think he only averaged twelve thirteen minutes. He took
seven shots. He took seven shots in eight games and
he made six of them. And there's a moment in
(23:59):
one of the game games Uh, you know, it was
another blowout. He's dribbling down court to get it started.
Yet is usual pretty good pace. You know, Jason played,
he got him, he got him gone. You're not that
not that uh, you know, Lebron and Kobe needed to
be revved up, but Jason got them going in their tempo.
He is dribbling up the court. That happened to be
a slow moment. They are backed off from him. They
(24:22):
were like twenty feet away from him, and you can
see Jason just stop and dribble and go, oh shit,
I gotta shoot this, you know, and he uh and
he drains it and uh, boy talked about somebody knowing
their role. That really uh, that really knocked me out.
Seven shots over eight games for a starter. And the
(24:43):
amazing thing is he developed into a more than decent
three point shooter. In fact, he's in the top ten
all time and three point shots made, which is one
of the more remarkable adjustments. I would put that up
there with Karl Malone becoming a great free throw shooter
after he was abysmal at the line when he first
got into the league. But Jason Kidd developed and it
(25:03):
really starts. I'd say if you look at the split
after this, uh, this time period in two thousand and eight,
with with this team, but sensing where the league was going,
he needed to become a better three point shooter, and
so he winds up. By the time he retired, he
was at top ten in the history of the league
and made three pointers. Kid was just such a smart player.
I mean, we've used this on and on about this team,
(25:27):
Lebron's basketball, Like you, Chris Paul, Jason Kidd is right
up there, and you talk about somebody who knew exactly
and remember when we first started talking about him, he
was surprised when Jerry Colangelo, the Godfather, asked him to
be on this team. And you talk about somebody that
from moment one knew his role. It was Jason Kidd.
(25:49):
My job was to you know, pick up, you know,
set the tone and set the table for us defensively,
um by picking up and getting guys to come up
with me, um and understand that that was going to
be one of our strengths is that, you know, steal
the ball, create turnovers, playing the open court, and have
fun doing it. And then I would go sit on
(26:10):
the bench and uh and let the younger legs take over.
And my job again was to, you know, on the bench,
you know, make sure that we cheered for one another,
because it's easy when it's forty to eighty to just
sit there and start looking in the stands. But I
thought the guys did a great job for cheering for
one another, and uh, I was again responsible to make
(26:33):
sure that guys were doing that. Meanwhile, the opposite of
Jason Kidd's role was Dwayne Wade. Instead of starting and
facilitating for Kobe and Lebron, Wade plays on the second unit,
where he had the freedom and even the mission to
be the focal point with those two stars out. And
you could argue that the second unit was what really
said apart Team USA and most of these games because
(26:54):
many of these countries had multiple NBA players and their
starting lineup, the Redeemed team had multiple NBA All Stars
coming off the bench. And that came up when Carlos
to Delfino, who was on the Argentina team, had a
conversation with Chris Boss. That Boss told us about Carlos.
Delfino's a good friend of mine and a teammate um
(27:15):
in Toronto, and he was telling me, He's like, yeah, man,
it's cool. You know, we already know it's gonna be
a tough game. But then you guys five guys out
and a whole other five comes in and it's Dwayne
Oh you damn Chris, Paul Darrenly and damn dude, you know,
and we were we were picking up full court, we
were pressing, we were playing fast, you know it scos
(27:37):
you man. I mean, you see how talented guys were.
And I always tell people that was some of the
best basketball I've ever seen Dwayne Waite play like. He
was incredible, Like I mean, instant right away. He's not
gonna miss too many. He's everywhere on the court. He
was incredible that year. And I remember just, you know,
(27:58):
just just being happy of having that luxury just to
kind of playoff guys, you know, and just to see
how really how talented guys are, what their work ethic
is and all these things and just to be able
to take part in that and have a good summer
with it. And Wade actually led the team in scoring
in two thousand and eight. Then it was Lebron, then Kobe,
(28:20):
and fourth is Carmelo Anthony. And the more Carmelo played
in the Olympics over the years, the more the Olympics
seem to bring out the best version of him. There
was Hoodie Carmelo, Hoodie Melo, and also Olympic mellow. And
when we talked to to Melow, the first thing I
asked him about was that phenomenon of Olympic mellow. Just
playing with with great players, right and playing you know,
(28:41):
being in a great situation and really just being able
to just kind of focus on one thing, right. I mean,
everybody bought something different too, the Olympic teams and you know,
and and at that point in time, my role was
that you know that that stretched for who can who
can shoot? Who you know, who who to stress the floor.
I mean when you play with guys you know the Klobe's,
(29:03):
Lebron and Cps and you know those every those guys
just like just get in when you're fit in right,
just get open, somebody somebody going to farm. And of
course Carmelo Anthony and Jim Behi I'm an assistant coach
on this team, are forever linked because Carmelo led Syracuse
to their first national championship under Beehim in two thousand three.
Jim's son, Betty Beheim, who had the cues on a
(29:25):
pretty nice tournament, run himself in he was born and Jack,
I'm wondering if he were born four years later, would
he be named Carmelo. It's quite possible. You know, they
do practice at the Carmelo Anthony Center, which I believe.
I believe Melo UH parted with three million dollars for that.
(29:47):
But when you think of somebody a one year guy,
or maybe not even a one year guy, but somebody
associated a player associated with an n c A A championship,
you know, like one guy, um boy, you'd be harder
pressed to find somebody more than UH than Carmelo Anthony
(30:09):
and Syracuse on that n c A championship team. I mean,
they had other good players, but he really carried that
team and Jim never forgot it and never will. Over
the years. You know, I've been pretty close to Jim.
We've had a lot of conversations. I wasn't always kind
to Carmelo and some of my assessments, uh, do not
(30:32):
do that in front of Jim Beheim, off the record,
under sodium pentethal whatever. Jim is not saying anything negative
about Carmelo Anthony. And you know what, I understand that.
I mean, that guy gave you a championship at a
time when you weren't supposed to, uh, when you weren't
supposed to win it. And here is Jim talking about
(30:54):
his uh, one of his favorite guys. Ever. First of all,
he's good in international ball. It's a little different, and
he's a good international player because of the way he
plays and how he can score, make the three, to
pull up, post up whatever. But the thing that's interesting,
I had to fight to get Mellow on this team.
That's the one thing I did. They you know, he
(31:16):
was not well regarded at that point in time. There
was a lot of talk and I had I really
talked to Jerry and Mike a long time about Carmelo
because I knew he is a perfect Olympic type player,
offensive player, and and he showed what's interesting And I
(31:39):
always hated the NBA people who wrote about him. He
should and he can play with the team. Well he's
when he's went Denver in the New York next. He
had to take all the shots they had nobody else,
He had to do everything. There was something about Carmelo
in this. On the one hand, it's hard to explain.
You're right, I mean he was probably, you know, certainly
(31:59):
not a top three. You could argue that he wasn't
even the fourth best player. But there was something about
Carmelo in that lineup of a national team guy that
got them, uh started on the wing. Well, Jack, I
will say this. I mean he was a guy. You know,
Kobe Lebron Wade. We've seen they were the best players
on championship teams, right they they could have that ability.
(32:21):
If they hadn't done it yet, they would go on
to do it. Carmelo could be the best player on
a playoff team, which is not nothing, right, and he
had demonstrated that early in Denver, and he got even
in Nix into the playoffs one year. So you could
have Carmelo, especially at that time, be your main guy
and you were going to be a playoff team, no
question about it. And the other thing, you know, I
(32:42):
was I was watching the next episode, which we're gonna
set up. We're gonna talk about the gold medal game,
and there's something else. There's four or five minutes to go,
and a lot of times Carmelo was not on the
floor because, as you mentioned, that second unit could really
d it up, could really mix things up. You know,
he wanted Chris Bosh in there, and there's Carmelo. I'm
(33:04):
not saying somebody should get extra credit for being a
great teammate, but that's when it came across to me
watching Carmelo in those final minutes, uh of the game,
and he was just such an integral part of Team USA.
When you name when you're gonna name the greatest players,
(33:25):
the greatest Team USA players, boy uh, Carmelo Anthony is
right near the top. And again he had to do
it in this case with UM. It's not an easy
adjustment to go from taking twenty shots a game to
maybe now you're only getting up half that and UM,
his efficiency, particularly the next Olympic team that's when he
(33:48):
was at his best, was actually UM with maybe a
better team because you've got you got Kevin Durant there
uh in addition to all these other main guys, Carmelo's
shooting percentages just go off the chart in twelve. But
he he's effective and pretty efficient here in in two
(34:08):
thousand and eight as well, and obviously it was a
key component of this championship group, Jack, what are some
of the other things that this stand out watching these games? Um?
One thing for me, I was a little surprised how
much they went into the paint to uh Dwight Howard.
They you know, they treated him like a traditional post
up center and they throw the ball into him a
(34:29):
little a little surprising to me. But as we go
back and remember he was the best center in the
NBA at that point. What else is as you watched
and rewatched these games from two thousand and eight stood
out to you? Well, Um, the number one thing that
I wrote down, that's what you said about Lebron That
just electric athleticism. I think another thing was we had
talked earlier about how comfortable Kobe was Laker Kobe l
(34:52):
a Laker, Kobe on the wing and you know, he
just seems like a wing guy. And how many times
they found Kobe on the Kobe on the wing and
the other thing that struck me as team wise about him.
They were, they were they could be prone to go
to sleep. Jay, they were you know, they the teams
(35:14):
that they played up until Spain um were you know,
they didn't get the best competition, but they would let
some teams back in. And there was one point it
was against uh Angola. For God's sake, you know, Showsky
you could look at him once a while on the
bench and he would be boiling at him. And as
(35:35):
we're going to see in the Spain game, he throws
out a couple of left bonds. But in the third period,
they're kind of you know, as to to use a
quote from bull Dorm, they're kind of lolly gagging their
way through the game against Angola. Showsky puts them in
a half court trap, and I was in Wade Lebron
Darren and Chris Paul. I mean, if they would have
(35:57):
played that half court trap for like eight minutes, I
don't think Angola would have got the ball above above
mid court. And another one other thing. Jay was at
the game against Greece and I should have been more
uh assiduous about checking whether the exact players from the
two thousand and six Greece team that beat them in
(36:20):
the World Championships. That was such a big deal for
this team. They're playing Greece in Beijing, and they were
so aggressive from the beginning of the game. They never
let them get into any perimeter pick and roll. And
once again it was Lebron. It was especially Lebron, and
just to go off on him again doing my research, um,
(36:44):
I was surprised at how few times Lebron has been
an All NBA defensive player. Was I missing something there?
He he you go back to two thousand thirteen, he
was a second team All NBA offensive guy. Did I
miss something? Isn't he a great defensive player or doesn't
(37:05):
get recognized or am I missing something? He was and
he was at that point, especially the peak of his
defensive ability in Miami. I think Eric Spoelstra, the Miami
he coach, used to calm one through five because you
can put Lebron defensively on any position from the point
guard to the center. And he was a key part
of that team's defense, especially as they started going smaller
(37:27):
and didn't have traditional I remember they had Joel Anthony
as a traditional big man at the beginning and then
get away from that in part because you can get
away with that with Lebron's thanks to Lebron's ability to
guard so many people. So you you had that then.
But then as he goes back to Cleveland and then
especially by the time he gets to l A with
the Lakers, you could see him taking times. Count the
(37:51):
number of times you see him dive on the floor
during the regular season or even his trademark chased down
blocks during the regular seats, and you'd stop seeing that.
So it was the right strategy. He's conserving his energy
for the playoffs. But as you know, Jack, the way
and the time NBA players conservat their energies on defense.
(38:13):
So by conserving energy throughout the regular season, Lebron's ranking
in his status as a defensive player dwindled. But he
can still bring it out when he wants to. He
just doesn't choose to do it as much. Yeah, I
guess he was never He wasn't that Kobe Jordan's lockdown guy.
He wasn't locking down the opposing to guard or switching
(38:33):
off on the point guard. He makes a play by
the way during the Olympics. Uh, I think it's you know,
I've lost track it might have been in the Grease
game where he makes a He just catches a layup
with both hands without goaltending. Now, it didn't come from
Kobe Bryant. It came from a smaller player. But Lebron
chases it down, jumps up in the air and catches
(38:57):
the ball with two hands, and it wasn't even close
to a uh wasn't even close to a goalten. A
final moment though, this could have been this in my
top five Olympic moments. Second quarter of the Germany game
against Germany. My god, what an atrocious team that was.
Dirk Nowitzki couldn't have gotten out of Beijing fast enough.
The US beat them a hundred and six to fifty seven.
(39:21):
I mean they should have used debtl of shrimp, you know, somewhere. Anyway,
in the second quarter, Kobe gets and by this time
they're they're gone. You know, this is nothing. We were
just fooling around like bird. Once in a while, I
used to I think I'll shoot left handed the rest
of the game. You know what, let me just shoot
some left hand a shot. Kobe gets a no look
(39:42):
pass from Kid, comes across the lane and says, what
the hell does like a classic hook shot, I mean
a real not a jump hook. You know, he wasn't
facing the basket. He did that kind of Maybe Joe
Jellybean Bryant had done one thirty five years earlier. I
don't know, But can you honestly remember beside Kareem and
(40:05):
not counting, you know, Kevin Garnett jump hook or something
like that. Can you think of anybody doing a or
the magic Johnson baby baby sky hook? Can you think
of a hook shot somebody did? I can think literally
of one Jack and it was in two thousand. I'm
on the road with the Lakers and they're playing in
Milwaukee and Ray Allen shoots a hook shot in the
(40:26):
lid the They're so intimidated. The Milwaukee Bucks is so
intimidated by Shack. This is at his ferocious best. This
is Shack's envy PCs and this is when he's fully
committed on defense, and the Bucks just wanted no part
of him. And Ray Allen all time great jump shooters,
still right now the career leader in three point shots made.
(40:46):
He goes into the lane. Most guys were just dribbling
in and dribbling out as soon as they saw Shack.
Ray Allen, of all people, goes into the lane and
shoots a hook shot. I'll never forget, Jack, I asked,
did it go in? Of course, Helen doesn't. Kobe went in.
I didn't make this point. Kobe went in, by the way,
Kobe Kobe cook shop winning. He could have made more
(41:07):
if he had wanted to take more, but he just
didn't want to. But Ray Allen takes one and misses it.
And after the game, I'm in the Milwaukee locker room
and I said, I go to Sam Counsel with my
favorite people in the NB. Said Sam, you guys, Uh,
I mean Ray Allen shooting the hook shots and you
guys didn't seem to want to take a lot of
shots in the paint. What's up with the Sam goes
(41:27):
see it? They got a second in, motherfucker, Sam Cosell.
But besides that, uh, you know, I don't I don't
have much else from the games until we get to Spain.
We're gonna deconstruct that Spain game. And I wondered, how
you know I'm betting Coach k still spent a lot
(41:48):
of uh freaking time there in the film room. Yeah, Jack,
I mean they win their games by an average score
of a hundred and six and seventy eight, and yet
coach k is still studying game tape like a madman.
And let's just say that didn't fit in with Jim
Beheim's idea of how they should be spending their time
in Beijing. Well, I would go out all day. My
kids were there, Mike would sleep all day. We would
(42:10):
play the game at nine o'clock, get back at eleven,
one o'clock we start watching take So now it's four
in the morning. I've been up since seven. I felt
I went on the floor. I never did that, right
on the floor. They wanted to give me a seatbelt.
Jim could sleep, though. I can tell you that that
there was storing during the year. I was doing a
(42:32):
book with him. Um he had one thing and the
first first day we were doing it, they were going
to play a game or something. I said, well, I'll
come over in the morning. We'll do some stuff. No,
I said, well, what are you doing? He goes, I
just sleep today of the game. That's what I do.
I don't want to see you, don't come over. That's
what I do. But you know, it's surprising that Beheim
could go anywhere by the way, given how restrictive things
(42:53):
were uh in Beijing, and the person I had to
deal with it the most was Craig Miller, who was
USA Basketball's chief communications officer, and he had been in
charge of the program, as we said before, he had
done that job before the Dream Team, And here he
is describing being in Beijing in two thousand eight. Yeah,
I think Beijing, it was really the restrictive government, um.
(43:19):
And treatment of the non mainstream as you will. Pollution
was certainly m a concern, but if you remember, Beijing
shut down kind of its industrial areas and the weather
actually during the Olympics was beautiful and it was blue skies,
you know, and not at all like it it what
it was when I went for some some site reviews
(43:41):
and some set up meetings. UM. But I think the
primary one of two in two thousand and eight, it
was really the the government, uh, and it's uh controlling
factor and in fact that was the case. It's the
only Olympics where I was told one rooms we would
have media interviews in at the hotel. It was you know,
it's it's really the first home. It was the first
(44:03):
Olympics where I had to supply twenty four hours in advance,
a list of media that would be coming to do interviews,
and they would approve it. So like if the USA
Today or Sports Illustrated wanted to come and do an
interview with d Way, I'd have to put him on
the list, have it in twenty four hours in advance,
and the government would review it. I'll prove it, and
(44:23):
then they would tell me that I would use meeting
room see and uh, you know we always joked that
was so they could hear the whole interview room. Um, firsthand,
you're listening to Kobe Lebron and of a deem team.
We'll be back after this. But I guess the good
(44:47):
thing about the government being so restrictive and controlling every
aspect of what went on in China and in Beijing
during those Olympics was that they were so restrictive they
could even control the smog. They limited the travel and
the access and so the the air pollution went down.
The same thing happened in l A in eighty four.
(45:08):
Jack I was living in l A. Peter uberof controlled
the weather. But what they did was well, first of all,
they scared so many people off. The people fled the city.
And then they had they had the companies that worked
out that had their offices downtown. They had him stagger
their work schedules, so you just didn't have as many
cars on the road, uh, polluting the the atmosphere. And Jack,
(45:30):
those are two the most glorious weeks in the history
of Los Angeles. The weather was great, there was no smog,
and there was no traffic. It was great. Um, let's
go back to two thousand and eight. Let's discuss the
players that we haven't talked to or talked about over
the course of this podcast. Uh, running down real quick,
Carlos Boozer. He was a player that you could find
then in two thousand and eight that you wouldn't really
(45:51):
see too much in today's NBA. And he was a
six ft nine power player, not a stretch four. He
made one three pointer in fourteen at hemps in his career,
and you had it was a transition. So at that time, Jack,
you had guys like Richard Lewis six nine, six ten,
guy who sat a lot of three pointers, but that
was still more of a novelty than the norm. But
(46:12):
but he was a power guy. Yeah, And I just
I loved I loved Carlos Boozer's game, but I do wonder,
you know, you got into that, I'm back to the
basket guy. He had probably played there from you know,
he played that Wayne college, and you just wonder if
he would have become, you know, something really really special,
if he would have got a face up game. But
(46:33):
you know that's twenty hid sight or is you know
that that's what that is. But I always thought maybe
he limited himself a little bit and he was not
able to find many minutes on this team. And another
guy who struggled to get playing time was Tayshaun Prince Um.
Now he was a defensive force arms had just went
(46:53):
on forever. It's funny how many guys, when you think
of their their highlight, it's defensive And I don't know.
Lebron had that amazing blocking Game seven to win the
championship for Cleveland. But there's still plenty of highlights for
le Bron that we think of Tassan Prince I would
say the highlight reel consists of one play that that
chasdown block that he had against Reggie Miller in the playoffs.
(47:14):
He was a four time All Defensive second Team member,
never average fifteen points per game and yet had a
long NBA career and found a place onto this team
as well. You know, here he is with Lebron and Kobe,
and in our interviews with people, you know j he
he always came up, you know, he was, oh, man,
(47:34):
I remember D'Antoni said it. We don't we're not running
the audio. But D'Antoni talked about him, Colangelo talked about him,
Mike Showski talked about him. He you know why, he
was just fit into that high i Q type of game.
He had one great moment in one of the games
he made a stepped in the passing lane. Uh, you know,
made a great one handed uh tomahawk dunk. But there
(47:58):
you can't play twelve guys, I mean nine, I would say, right, J.
Nine is kind of your limit on on any kind
of team. And that's just the way that it was.
And I'm not saying Taishawn could could should have got
more minutes, but he probably he certainly could have. The
way he fit in, it was good at least to
(48:18):
have the Pistons represented in this era. And of course
that is a major glare of the Dream Team in
ninety two was that Isaiah Thomas and his two championships,
and the Pistons two championships weren't represented. So at least
Taishan helps remind you when you go back and see
this of what the Pistons meant to that league, and
remember that group was a game away from being two
(48:39):
time champions. For seed, Wallace doesn't commit the unpardonable sin
leaving Robert big shot. I could still hear people screaming,
don't leave him. Can't leave big shot Robert ry alone
at a big moment in a playoff game, and that's
what he did to go double manager Nobli Uh. If
not for that, and even despite that, they still took
(49:01):
that series of seven games came within a game of
beating the Spurs, but the Spurs win Game seven at
home in two thousand five, they would have been back
to back champions. But even after that, the Miami Heat
still had to go through the Pistons UH to get
to the championship. In two thousand and six, Lebron James
had to go through them to get to the finals
in two thousand and seven, the Celtics had to go
(49:22):
through them in the conference finals to get to their championship.
In two thousand and eight. So let's not forget the Pistons,
and through Tashaun Prince, we can give them a little
shout out in the context of this redeemed team. Uh,
Michael read another player on that team an outside shooter. Uh,
it's funny we think of him as an outside shooter.
But he was only in the top ten of three
(49:42):
point shooting percentage twice and the last time was in
two thousand three, so long before this team. But they're
just weren't that many shooters around, American shooters around in
the league at that time. And then, sadly, he tore
up his left knee in January two thousand nine, and
then he retour those same ligaments a year and he
was basically done. And we really don't think or talk
(50:02):
about him that much. But at a time when you
needed a guy to shoot, now Jack, you have everyone
is expected to be able to shoot from every position.
Nikolayoki is expected to shoot three pointers. Your point guards
are expected to shoot three pointers. But at that time
and for that team, you needed a three point specialist.
And the problem for putting together Olympic basketball teams for
(50:25):
America is a lot of the best shooters weren't American
back then. Pages Toyakovitch and Hado Turkolu. Patio was one
of three players who made more than two hundred three
pointers that season in two thousand and eight, um so three.
He was one third of that two hundred club. In
twenty nineteen, which was the last time we had a
full NBA season, twelve players made more than two hundred
(50:49):
and so you just have more shooting available. You have
more players who can shoot, more Americans who can shoot
three pointers. But Michael Red was really a relic from
that era and that's how he wand up on that team. Yeah,
there was always that was a big fear. I remember
the Dream Team organization. That was the fear that it's
(51:09):
a forty minute game. Oh we started missing we And
that's why Chris Mullen, who in many ways you know,
hadn't one I'm trying to think who I would compare
him to on the on the Redeemed team, Uh, you know,
was an established player but hadn't won a championship. But
I as as I recall it, Chris Mullen was one of,
like Chuck Daly, first five guys that he wanted after
(51:32):
Jordan Pippo because he was a shooter. And as it
turns out, you know, uh, Kobe was such a good
probably didn't need him. But you know, Michael Read it
just it just speaks to the time, Jay. There are
many metrics about how the game has changed. And I've
talked endlessly about the Phoenix Suns. You know, my guys
(51:54):
from early in the Auts revolutionizing the league with the
number of three point attempts, and now they would be
near the bottom. Michael Read known, as you said, as
a h you know, an outside shooter with range. He
I looked us up, he would average about in his
most three point taking season, he didn't even average six
(52:19):
threes a game. He was around five four and a half.
And right now that would put him about in the
top sixty of three point shooters in the NBA. And
that's just an example of, you know, how the game,
how much the game has changed. So with this two
thousand and eight teen though, Kobe says, I'll handle that,
(52:40):
Michael Read, your services aren't needed. Kobe average six and
a half three point attempts per game in only twenty
three minutes. So he led the Redeemed team with fifty
three three point attempts made seventeen percentage um in eight games,
got a fifty three points. So Kobe decided he would
(53:00):
take on the three point shooting duties. So that's our
sort of final observations on this team is a look
at their run through pool play and and even uh
uh the metal Round. As we got into that, and
as we'll find out in our next episode, things got
a lot tighter after all that cruising and fun that
(53:22):
they had and sleeping that Jim Beeheim got in. Uh,
things were allowed to get a lot more serious. In
the gold medal game against Being Well, there was definitely
a lot of russure. We knew that was not gonna
be easy. Uh. You know, they always teamed uh you know,
these things like their best right in the best moments.
The things I remember is that you couldn't shake them.
(53:44):
You know, every time you get up like five or
six points, you think, okay, now you can bring it over.
And they did a big three or or hit a
couple of big three in a row, back back to
where we're scary State scary the whole game. The only
thing that was going through my mind was like, damn,
we can't stop these guys. You know what I mean,
we were. It was a spirited effort by both teams.
Who would they lean on to save the day. We'll
have all that more in the next episode of Kobe
(54:07):
Lebron and the Redeem Team. For now, I'm Jane and
I'm Jack McCallum. Thanks for listening. The Dream Team Tapes
Season two. Kobe Lebron and the Redeem Team is a
production of Diversion Podcasts in association with I Heart Radio.
For more podcasts for my Heart Radio, visit the I
(54:30):
Heart Radio app, Apple Podcasts, where wherever you get your podcasts.
This season is written and hosted by me, Jack McCallum
and j A. Dande. Executive producer Scott Waxman and Mark
Frances for Diversion podcast and Sean's High Toned for I
Heart Radio. Our editorial director is John Tuttle, Supervising producer
(54:52):
Brian Murphy, Legal producer Freddie Overseteghen editing, mixing and sound
designed by Mark Frances. For the Fields is our technical producer,
and our director of Marketing and business Development is Jacob Bronstein.
(55:13):
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