December 7, 2023 • 47 mins
In this extremely spirited Fire Drill, Matt Ginella is joined by Alan Shipnuck and Micheal Bamberger as the three lay out their opinions of the recently announced golf ball rollback.
See omnystudio.com/listener for privacy information.
Mark as Played
Transcript
Episode Transcript
Available transcripts are automatically generated. Complete accuracy is not guaranteed.
Speaker 1 (00:03):
This is a big deal. We are talking about people
who pay to play. You're making rules because of what
you see based on people who get paid to play,
that impact the people who pay to play. That's a
bad decision.
Speaker 2 (00:21):
I got bouncing my head.
Speaker 3 (00:24):
Can't get him jh. Not to think what I'm thinking about.
Got bouncing my head. Can't get them out, joh, not
the thing what I'm thinking about.
Speaker 4 (00:43):
Hello, this is allan schipnook back for another Fire Drill podcast.
It's a big day in golf with the rollback announcement
by the USGA. There's a lot to talk about. We've
convened an all star panel of Matt Janella and Michael Bamberg.
We're hoping to get esteemed architect and thinker Michael Clayton.
(01:04):
He was supposed to be here now he may buzz
it at any moment. We'll patch him through. But there's
a lot to talk about real quick before we get
to the news of the day and what it means. Matt,
why don't you tip your cap to our corporate sponsors here?
Speaker 1 (01:19):
Oh, I mean, you know you've heard it before, you've
listened to this podcast. But obviously link soul and that
lifestyle brand that you know I'm proud to be affiliated
with and to where you know on and off the
golf course. Go to link soul dot com use fire
Pit twenty five for twenty five percent off your next
purchase of all Links Soul gear. I'm especially a fond
(01:41):
of the flat brims and the hoodies, regardless of my age.
And the Dormy Workshop, the company that does fine leather
goods and does our head covers and anything else that
we make made of leather. They're just simply, in my opinion,
the best in the business. And we also have a
(02:02):
promo code fire Pit fifteen for fifteen percent off your
next purchase on dormy workshop dot com.
Speaker 2 (02:12):
Awesome, All right, let's get to it.
Speaker 4 (02:14):
There's a lot to talk about here, and Michael, you
wrote a very thoughtful piece for five by Collective dot
Com sticking out a little bit of a middle ground
that the rollback was necessary, but it's not going to
have a cataclysmic effect on all of us now that
it's here, now it's official. What does this mean for
(02:36):
the professional game and then for guys like us?
Speaker 5 (02:39):
Uncharacteristically, Alan you understated, I think I'll have no impact
on us. The three of us on this conversation, and
little I think there's they split say there's sixty nine golfers,
literally fifty nine point nine to nine million golfers. They
will have no effect. You'll never know the difference, just
like I would say to the three of us, if
(02:59):
you get a top flight in a pro v one,
we can barely tell the difference in terms of distance,
in terms of click and everything else. So I think,
but in terms of what they really wanted to do
to have an impact on the best golfers in the
world and make I think this is their real goal,
make classic classic golf course is still meaningful at meaningful
park lives and the rest thirteenth, Augusta National and many
other examples. I don't think it's going to do it
(03:21):
at all.
Speaker 4 (03:23):
I mean, you're Matt. Your point is, if they're going
to do it, they didn't go far enough right. They
should have rolled it back more if they were going
to do it.
Speaker 1 (03:30):
To Michael's point, like then why are we doing Like then,
why are we Why are we going through this? What
is actually happening right now? What is being done? What
just got announced in twenty twenty three, that's going to
go to effect in twenty twenty, like the none of this,
(03:50):
you know, makes any sense to me, So I'm just
not you know, it's such a small percentage of people
that it's apparently going to impact, but then it's also
eventually going to end packed some of us. But by
the time we get to twenty thirty, I'm already dealing
with rollback. It's called age. Like everybody's going through it.
Tiger Woods is going through it. Phil Mickelson is fighting
(04:12):
the fight of being able to actually still say he
hits bombs. Like the longest hitters aren't winning or dominating,
They're playing a different brand of golf. There's you know,
none of this. Is it that one hundred and fiftieth
Open that we were there at Saint Andrew's in which
guys were driving the eighteenth with a threewood in you know,
(04:34):
burnt out conditions in a summer stretch of time in
Scotland in which the fairways rolling faster than the greens.
Was that so optically unsettling to them that they were like,
that's it, we have to do it. What is going
on right now?
Speaker 4 (04:52):
I mean, I think the answer and Mike One has
said this in it's sort of a sensible way, is
we had to do something. We can't do nothing, because
if you project seven years from now when guys are
driving it, three seventy three, eighty three, ninety four hundred,
whatever the norm was going to become, if it went
completely unchecked, like they had to draw the proverbial line
(05:14):
in the sand.
Speaker 2 (05:15):
And maybe this is just the opening salvo.
Speaker 4 (05:18):
If the USGA had come and said we're going to
roll it back twenty five percent for the pros or
thirty percent, there would have been mutiny and anarchy. We're
already sort of seeing that a little bit. But maybe
they start with this rollback and then they keep dialing
it back a little bit more so the old courses
and the marions and those courses can be relevant. Again,
(05:39):
I don't know that to be true, but I think
they had to set some kind of precedent that we're
still the sheriff of this game, that we still.
Speaker 2 (05:46):
Need a little bit of law and order.
Speaker 4 (05:49):
And you know, there's that legal term splitting the baby,
where you kind of come to a compromise it's not
really satisfactory to either side.
Speaker 2 (05:55):
It's a little bit like that.
Speaker 4 (05:56):
It wasn't enough of a rollback, but it's something and
everybody's mad. But at least they've started the governance process,
so that would be my answer to your question is
what is happening is they had to start somewhere, and
this is where they started.
Speaker 2 (06:11):
This may not be the end.
Speaker 5 (06:13):
Now what have you done with Alan Schipnak out there
on the west coast? When did it get so measured
and reasonable? This is very weird slash unsettling. But I
do agree with everything Alan said. I truly despite everything
I said before, I truly do agree with everything Alan said.
You do have to have a line on this end,
and you can't just let it keep escalating. And if
this is a line of the sand, which I don't
(06:34):
really believe it will be, it's better than nothing. But
I think, at the risk of repeating myself, they didn't
or maybe this is saying a new thing. I don't
think they really identified the problem and the problem. You know, Matt,
HiT's the long way, and you do too, Alan, but
that is.
Speaker 2 (06:50):
Not the problem.
Speaker 5 (06:51):
You're not going to abandon dunes and the part five
so are obsolutely the problem is super super narrow. It's
golf on TV at the best courses in the world.
I don't know the numbers that Nicholas said it, but
Nicholas said, you know there used to be that someone
could help me here. Maybe you know, there used to
be five in your courses that could in the world,
that could hold major championships. Now there's one hundred, whatever
the numbers are, but it's something on the order of that,
(07:12):
and that's not good for golf. You know, these great
old courses are worth preserving. And if they don't have
legitimate part fives and you know, two shot part fours,
then they sort of the game gets it's a lesser
game actually without the old courses and the marriage being meaningful.
Speaker 4 (07:31):
Well, and this also it speaks to this how this
process was so messy because you know, Matt, you've you've
been pretty forceful on social media that this is the
wrong time for a rollback for the amateur golfer as
the game is exploding in popularity, as we were bringing
all kinds of new people to game, and the message
now is we want to make it harder for you.
That's a bad message. You know, bifurcation was on the table.
(07:54):
That would have made sense. You could have you could
have throttled back the pros as much as you want
and not messed with the rest of us. But the
ball manufacturers didn't want that, and they control the players well,
I mean because they take their cues from the manufacturers
who pay the bills. So the pros and the manufacturers
(08:16):
killed by furcation, and so then that sort of backed
the USGA into a corner, like, if we're gonna do anything,
it's got to be for everybody now, So it's ironic
that we could have had a sensible solution that don't
touch the amateurs, just deal with this very tiny subset
of golfers who do smash the you know, ungodly distances,
(08:36):
But the manufacturers and the players killed that the tour players.
Speaker 2 (08:40):
So now.
Speaker 4 (08:43):
Now it's affecting all of us. But the crazy thing
is the PGA Tour and the pg of America have
kind of signaled they're not into this, and certainly Live
Golf is not gonna be into it.
Speaker 2 (08:52):
So we may get into this.
Speaker 4 (08:53):
Bizarro world scenario where the professional circuits opt out of
this and they choose not to follow this rule, but
it affects the amates. So all the pros have unchecked distance,
but the amateurs are getting penalized like that makes my
brain hurt. There's a long way to get to that moment,
but it's theoretically possible, and that's insanity.
Speaker 1 (09:13):
Well so so so okay, all of that being said,
and the USGA trying to ultimately protect let's say, their championships,
and the RNA trying to protect their Open championship and venues,
and why don't they Why don't they just simply then
(09:34):
get into the business of making a tournament ball, much
like what people wanted Augusta to do several years ago
at the Masters, to say, create a tournament ball and
say this is the ball you're gonna have to play
at my championship or mid championships in the case of
the RNA and the and the USGA, and say, in
order to play this championship, you have to play this ball.
(09:56):
And then they're going they then you take the manufacturer
is out of the equation. You control your situation as
it relates to your championships, which is the only place
that any of this actually matters, and just isolate that
situation and say and do whatever you want, make the
rules that you want to have people to adhere to,
(10:19):
and then let everybody else decide if that's something they
want to do at their tournament, at their course, in
their search coumstensus, not unlike, you know, let's go all
the way down to go Hill Park in the Wishbone
bral where John Asher says in order to have the
course record, you have to play Per Simmons, and the
Wishbone Ball brawl is played with Per Simmons and men
play against women. And it's all, you know, like, there
(10:41):
is ways to do this that simply you know, blanket
statements and doing these this rule rule changes and rollbacks
to the masses just doesn't make sense to me. Yeah,
what No, seriously, let's get back. Why wouldn't they just
do that and make ball. They're sitting on it, piles
(11:01):
of cash. They've used these championships to raise the money
to you know, they have the money, go make.
Speaker 2 (11:09):
You own ball.
Speaker 4 (11:11):
I mean, it's it makes sense except the most important tournaments.
And now you're if the players, you know, twenty five
weeks a year, are you using a different ball on
the tour because they don't want to give up that
competitive advantage because other guys are using it. Then you
come to the Masters of the US Open. It's the
most important championship. You got to learn this new ball
(11:33):
and then you know, it's it's to be fun.
Speaker 2 (11:35):
It'd be interesting. It'd be a great talking point.
Speaker 1 (11:37):
But baseball, you go to a different field. You got
to hit it further and right field, then you have
to go to left field. You've got you know that's true.
Speaker 4 (11:43):
I mean in tennis, you know, tennis is messed with
the ball different on different surfaces and different things like
it wouldn't be unprecedented, they would just be. It would
be a big deal. It would be a sea change.
Speaker 1 (11:53):
I mean, I would love this. It's a big deal.
This is a big deal. We are talking about people
who pay to play. You're making rules because of what
you see based on people who get paid to play
that impact the people who pay to play. That's a
bad decision. This is your client, tele this is your customer.
(12:15):
This These are the people thirty years ago that you
would have given anything to have them show up and
pay to play this game. And they're here now and
we're saying and we're going to shut the door on
their face and say, uh sorry, I know the game
is hard. It's really hard. That's why the game is
so hard that things like top golf and Part three
(12:36):
courses and short courses, and that that's the actual trend
that's happening right now. Sustainability issues, well, guess what the
game is already shrinking, grasses are improving, pottable water is
going away and more. The trend is to reclaim water
to water these golf courses. So throw the sustainability stuff
out and it's going to correct itself by water prices
(12:58):
and everything that else is involved. This is not the
solution to anything related to sustainability. This is not the
solution to grow the game. And all the marketing efforts
that you've put forward governing bodies to try to get
us there, all of that is now a massive contradiction
and a big, unnecessary pr nightmare that we're all going
(13:20):
to have to endure for the next tk coming years.
And it's unnecessary and it's driving me crazy because you
know why, and I think we can all agree we
love this game.
Speaker 2 (13:32):
Why do we love.
Speaker 1 (13:33):
This game because of the places it takes us, the
people we meet, the relationships we forge, the experiences we have,
the opportunities we have to have that camaraderie community and
show up and also share it with the people who
matter most family, friends, our children, their children. So the
(13:55):
reason why I want to grow the game, and why
I was so supportive of the Grow the Game efforts
and why everyone got behind that movement is that very reason,
because we want people to have the experiences that we've
all been blessed to have relating to golf. If you
suck the game of golf out of my life and
all the relationships I've had because of golf, I'd have
(14:16):
almost nothing. That's why I care about it. That's why
I post, and that's why I want it to continue
to grow, because golf creates good people, and good people
is exactly what we need right now in this world.
And if the person that's showing up and playing music
too loud or is not conforming to the general etiquette
(14:38):
of what the game is, guess what. We stop them
and go.
Speaker 2 (14:42):
By the way.
Speaker 1 (14:43):
Carts can't drive over the green. Oh, by the way,
this is goad Hill Park. This John Ashworth created this community.
Please don't just run over arbitrarily. The signs that are
saying parts this way. You coach them up. That's part
of the process that community kicks in and we right
the ship and we correct the wrongs and we make
(15:06):
better people because of it. Why is first t exists?
Why does uthon course happen because you want kids in
the game so that they can become better people.
Speaker 2 (15:18):
What are we doing?
Speaker 1 (15:20):
Matt?
Speaker 2 (15:20):
I wish you had some passion on this.
Speaker 1 (15:21):
So this is madness. The governing bodies literally loaded a
gun and just shot themselves in their own feet.
Speaker 4 (15:30):
Well, okay, let me play Devil's advocate here. I mean,
for the beginning golfer. I agree that optically it's not
a great message. But for people who just learn to
play the game, who don't swing the club that hard
or well, they probably won't even notice the difference when
the ball goes back. Well that's the question. I mean,
that's why bifurcation would have made sense. I think you know, Michael,
(15:54):
your point was it? And I like the top flight
versus provy one. Maybe some of us would know the difference,
But if we're talking about the beginners, they certain they
certainly wouldn't. They're just trying to find the club phase.
I mean, Michael, in your mind, what what is the
way forward? Like, where does the game go from this moment?
Speaker 5 (16:16):
Well, the greatness about the about the four majors when
people actually do watch golf and like say Hartford and
waste Man, well, Wasteman, it's not for an example, but
you know, the ordinary pH to event or the ordinary
live event is that those events invited massive, massive audiences.
And this this dovetails with with with with medicine. And
(16:38):
if we when we watch ordinary golf, it's driver eight
iron or driver sandwich into so many part forwards and
we can't relate because we're not doing that. But if
those four, let's call it, even five times a year,
if the players got on board with it, if you
did have a special ball for those events, it would
make golf even more inviting because we the public and
especially beginners people near to the game, would relate even
(16:59):
more to what they're doing on TV because it would
at least start to approach what we're doing, which isn't
happening now. Now the game is so bifurcated already, but
they're not willing to admit it. You know. Rory McRoy
said that the other day, he said, you think the
clubs that I played and you play are the same.
Of course not. They're so finally tuned to their exact needs.
We go to Dick's Sporting Goods about whatever the guy
(17:20):
gives us, or if the person gives us. So I
think there is really I think that governing bodies didn't
really really identify the problem. The problem is not running
out of land at ninety nine percent of the thick
golf courses. It's this tiny sliver of courses where they
are running out of land. They can't make the course
(17:41):
long enough, and we can't really relate to what they're doing.
And to your point Alan about, you know, would it
really would it be fair to make a guy to play,
you know, one ball twenty five weeks a year. To
Bad's point about, you know, you got a short porch,
you know, Fenway and a different one at Yankee Stadium
and Rety and all the rest. Adjust, just adjust. It
(18:01):
would be another part of the challenge. So I think
it would. I think it would have been really neat.
You know, of course we're not old enough to remember it,
but the diming rule was once to think, can you
imagine at one point, you know, people are like, can
you believe they're going to give it to the steming rule?
Now that this next generation hasn't even heard of it,
And why would they so like if you did something
quote radical, like actually give the athlete a ball to
(18:25):
use in these four or five different tournaments, it would
seem crazy and outrageous for a while, and then it
just wouldn't. It would just be normal. And of course,
of course in every other sport pretty much except for bowling,
that's what happens the governing body because every putting on
the event gives you a ball and go play. And
even to the last thing. I know, the manufacturers would
(18:45):
go crazy about this, but you could even have of
course it would be expensive and blah blah blah, but
you could have the different manufacturers make the tournament ball
that would be used in these four or five different tournaments. Okay, great,
they can still get their name out there.
Speaker 1 (18:59):
The thing, the other thing that drives me crazy just
to say, is like, why why just the ball, Like
you know, let's roll back mowing, let's row back mowers,
and let's go to longer length fairways, let's grow out rough.
I mean, the pros don't like to play with long rough,
so guess what, there's no more long rough anyway. They
don't play in long rough. They don't. They don't really
(19:21):
like it. You know the pros are going to always
just do this is this is a such a small
set and an entertainment factor factory, and they're getting paid
to put on a show and what we think the
show should be or could be or supposed to be,
it doesn't matter if they don't if they don't go
(19:42):
along with it. It's like you still need to get
buy in from them. And if you get buy in
from them, then it doesn't matter from us. And once
they passed on it, then why are Why is the
solution then to to to go and pick on everybody,
you know, everybody at school, Like it just makes no
sense to me.
Speaker 4 (20:00):
They did address the fairway height in the in the
in the report on the distance, and they said it
was pretty negligible in two to four yards maybe longer.
Speaker 1 (20:12):
Fairweaight cards For what they're saying, right, it is like
you know almost a third of what they're actually proposing.
So if you take fairway length, if you limit the
loft in the club head and say okay, you can
only use thirteen degrees and higher, you can't go down
to an eight degree loft, if you can only have
a certain length of shaft, if you can only have
(20:34):
a certain clubhead size. You know, why, why does it
have anything really to do? You know, like why do
you just single out the ball and just say.
Speaker 2 (20:45):
That's the issue. You know, hard and faster.
Speaker 1 (20:48):
We're seeing the ball roll thirty to seventy yards after
it lands on these fairways.
Speaker 2 (20:55):
Yeah, I think on some level.
Speaker 4 (20:58):
The ball is an easy scale go if you wanted
to get into the systemic issues and you could go
down a rabbit hole, you know, you could regulate t
height you get to.
Speaker 1 (21:08):
We are in that hole. This is where we are.
This is where we've we've we we are not going
down the rabbit hole. We have been shoved into.
Speaker 2 (21:15):
The rabbit hole.
Speaker 1 (21:16):
Yeah, well, unnecessarily. And that's also part of my frustration.
You know, the professional game, as you guys both know,
is an absolute shit show, dumpster fire, uh, inside out,
upside down and backwards. It's it's just like to the
point where people are tuning out and moving on at
(21:40):
a big at a big rate, and now the governing
bodies of the so called quote masses are going to
throw this grenade into that room.
Speaker 2 (21:54):
Well, it does.
Speaker 4 (21:54):
It does get interesting because golf but louder does not
really dovetail with shorter driving distances. So what Live is
going to do and what the PGA Tour is going
to do, and they don't have to be in lockstep
assuming this framework agreement blows up, even if it's consummated,
like they're not bound by there's no nitty gritty in
that that they're gonna have to follow the same competition rules.
(22:16):
So then you can you know what one tour does
versus the other. To your point, Matt, it gets messy.
Speaker 2 (22:22):
I think Michael.
Speaker 4 (22:24):
Mentioned this earlier. I mean professional golf on TV has
never been more boring, and some of that is just
the style of play when they do go to I
think it's like that old Donald Ross course outside Detroit.
I mean, the guys are in wedge into every single hole.
Is just so boring because you give a pro a
wedge either going to hit a great shot or a
(22:45):
good shot. There's no danger. You know, either they're going
to be thirty feet, they're going to be five feet.
But the range of outcomes is so small. That's why
I like bifurcation. I like the more severe rollback where
the game becomes more interesting to Watts.
Speaker 1 (23:00):
In the first four by f Kid, I was for
just for the record, I'm for by furcation. Do whatever,
you know, like do whatever you want to do the
pros and and get them on board.
Speaker 4 (23:09):
And that's said that to me is such a miss.
Here is you know, the the PGA tour helped kill it.
I mean they're still writing letters to the USG They're
still pushing back, and it's their product that's suffering. I mean,
their product has never been more anadyne and more just
it's just predictable. And it's their product, you know what
(23:31):
I mean, Like look at the NFL. What a mess
the NFL is, But it's their product. Like they're gonna
have to address the tush push like that's you know,
you know, I don't Calvin Johnson came along. He was
really tall and he's unguardable. Randy Moss was an elite
athlete who was basically unstoppable for a chunk of time.
I mean Tom Brady won seven supers, you know, was
(23:51):
it played in seven Super Bowls?
Speaker 2 (23:53):
Like what what?
Speaker 1 (23:55):
Like does that mean? We just have like what do
we what are we doing? We just sort of react
based on everything that continues to happen at the elite level.
And the difference here being is that you're making decisions
that affect the people who pay to play. What if
you put polls in front of everybody's seats in the
grandstands of people who are watching football and say we're
(24:16):
gonna make it harder for you to watch the game
that you're paying to play.
Speaker 5 (24:21):
Matt, what would you answer to this question if let's
say Mike Wan and Slumbers and Fred Ridley called you
zoom called just like this one. They said, Mat, You've
been around the game all your life. What do you
see as the issue with the game right now as
it relates to this one narrow thing? How far the
golf ball goes?
Speaker 1 (24:39):
I don't see it. I do not do well. I
just don't see it. Buddies trip we have on our
annual Buddies trip, we have a range of plus handicaps
to twenty four handicaps. If anything, distance is an issue
for the greater majority of the people on the trip
in terms of the ball doesn't go far enough golf.
Speaker 2 (25:00):
Go go play lido.
Speaker 1 (25:01):
Right now from the forward t's and if you shoot
your handicap, I'll send you a hat. Right now, Go
play the lido at Sand Valley. And you think you're
going to go out there and overpower that golf course.
This is one of the old classics that was built
to be a tough golf course. Like, you know, I
(25:22):
don't see it. I don't see it anywhere. I don't
see it at Tory Pines. I don't see it at
Beth Page. I don't see the distance is not an
issue unless we turn on the TV and we think
we're going to ask ourselves. And if you're at a
private club and distance is an issue, maybe you have
an issue with an architecture of that golf course or
where that bunker was originally. Like, really, there's enough people
(25:45):
in your membership at your private club that you all
pay to play that this is a problem that should
in somehow impact the masses. Do whatever you want at
your club, do whatever you want at the pur But
for the people who rock up at goad Hill Park
forty five yards par sixty five, eight par threes, you
(26:07):
know what the issue is. It's golf is too hard.
That's the issue. So anything we're doing to make it
harder makes no sense, and it's going to affect the
bottom line at that little mini municipal who's fighting for
its life to try to get more people to rock
up and pay to play.
Speaker 5 (26:27):
Alan, what do you what do you think? Alan? What
do you think? Like? My contention is they haven't really
been forth right about what they think the problem is.
But what is what's your take on.
Speaker 4 (26:39):
When you say they are you are you talking about
the ruling bodies as the day.
Speaker 2 (26:44):
Yeah, they think the.
Speaker 5 (26:45):
Problem is really really whether they're saying it publicly or not.
Speaker 4 (26:51):
Yeah, I mean Matt touched on the problem is that
the two tournaments are being most affected by the distance
explosion is the US Open and the British Open, because
they're locked into these old traditional venues that have gotten
so short. And it's we have a measuring stick and
(27:12):
you go back to the old course every five years
you can see, you know, no one's hitting drive off eighteenymore.
It is too short at the old course. I mean
it's a three wooded computer. In five years are going
to be you know, uh Lude, big a bear and
and Gordon Sargent. I'm gonna be hitting three irons and
driving the green quickly quickly.
Speaker 5 (27:31):
I would definitely add as Nation to that list. I
guess too, so that everybody and their mother reaches eight
now No, so that, so that that is the issue
for the governing vice.
Speaker 2 (27:41):
They've been asleep at the wheel for decades.
Speaker 4 (27:43):
Distances have gone unchecked, and where it's most obvious is
at their most important championships. And so I think they're embarrassed,
Like you know, they play the old course they have
they put tea's on the eden and the new course
and in ob areas and all this ridiculousness just to
try and make it something like the shot values that
have always been there.
Speaker 2 (28:02):
So that's what I think.
Speaker 4 (28:03):
That's why I think is driving this is they have
egg on their face every year when it's clear that
their their malfeasance and their ineptitude has allowed the professional
game to become to run amok, and so they they
have to do something because of their own championships.
Speaker 2 (28:23):
It's only two.
Speaker 5 (28:24):
Weeks a year, just for four or five weeks a year. Yeah, Like, no,
no LPG event feels that way that I could imagine,
no way. Now players felt the player the TPC sawgrass course,
they would probably identify with all of that. Got me,
eighteen Can you match your guys playing eighteen at the
three arn and a six arm? Which they do? You
(28:44):
know you hit a three arm and you hit it
right down the right side the Boks and then you'll
hit a cut six iron in there. I mean, that's
not what Pete I wanted. So so okay, I think
that I'm based on what you just said, we're totally
on the same page. So on that basis, I'm with
you with the line in the sand. But why not,
as Matt and I have both been saying, why not
just have a golf ball for these four or five
weeks a year.
Speaker 4 (29:05):
It's certainly feasible, And now that's going to be the
only solution since since they've officially punted on bifurcation as
a governing principle, then the tournament ball becomes the last hope.
But to me, I mean, I like you said, I
think you said it. Well, Michael, it seems crazy, but
then after a couple of years, it's not a big deal.
(29:27):
And you know, when I coached high school basketball, we
use a certain kind of basketball all year long. We
get to the CCS playoffs, they have a deal a
different manufacturer. They handle this ball pre game. It feels weird,
it doesn't dribble the same. The girls don't like it. Well,
too bad. This is the ball we're using. You got
fifteen minutes of warmups to get used to it, and
you go play. It's still a round ball that bounces,
(29:50):
so I mean it exists in sports like but.
Speaker 5 (29:54):
That is sport right there. It's like when when Phil
complained about the two hundred and seventy yard par three
may who cares? Is two seventy for everybody? Done? Right there.
Speaker 1 (30:04):
College baseball players play their whole lives with middle bats,
and in order to make the pros, they have to
adjust to a wooden bat. The you know, the the goat.
Let's let's pull the caddies. Okay, let's go to Saint
Andrews and the Old Course and ask the caddies if
we think we need to roll the ball back to
make the Old Course more relevant. Let's go to Pebble
(30:24):
Beach and ask the caddies if we think this is
a good idea to roll the ball back for the
people who are rocking up and playing Pebble Beach. I
know for a fact that the caddies at Sand Valley
dread the idea that they're going to have to caddy
for these amateurs at the Lido on a daily basis
and have to witness the carnage that's going to be
(30:45):
displayed out there for all these people who love the
architecture and playing one of these classical golf courses and
they're making putting out for sixes, sevens, eights. Please pick
it up, you're making a nine. Please, it's over. Let's
go and talk to the caddies about which course they
like to caddy at Bandon Dunes more is it Pacific
(31:06):
Dunes or is it is it Sheep Ranch? Like this
is like this.
Speaker 2 (31:12):
This is this right?
Speaker 4 (31:14):
So okay, this is where we've come to in this podcast.
We all three of us agree they should have bifurcated.
Speaker 2 (31:20):
They didn't.
Speaker 4 (31:21):
So now an interesting question becomes what happens in seven years,
Like will will the golfers rebel? Will they just will
they just opt out? You know, none of us are
playing in big time amateur events. We're just playing with
our friends. So when you get to the first t
in two thousand and January first, two thousand and thirty,
(31:41):
do you say, boys, you know, I've got some pro
v ones that are year and a half old.
Speaker 2 (31:45):
I'm going to use them. I don't know what you got,
you know, like.
Speaker 4 (31:48):
It's it's just like when we play, we grant each
other mulligans. Occasionally there's certainly gimme's, Like all of us
have our own low key interpretation of the rules as
it is now. So what do you think will the
average golfer embrace the new dead ball? Or in mass
(32:10):
are we just going to vote with our pocketbooks and
ignore the rule?
Speaker 2 (32:14):
Like, what's going to happen?
Speaker 5 (32:16):
People are going to be I don't care. People are
going to be I don't care. You know, I've been
playing these iwos. I don't know if they're legal or not.
I think they are. I think their grandfather did. I
don't care. Now if it was actually playing in something
where someone cared and said, okay, well if you care them,
I care. But otherwise I don't care.
Speaker 4 (32:32):
Well, I mean, so, Matt, Matt, you you organize an
annual Buddies trip. People know about the Uncle Tony motasal Michael,
you have an annual gathering called the Shiviz where you
bring together, you know, a couple dozen guys to play.
So what is going to happen in twenty thirty? Are
you going to have to specify to this motley crew
of friends who come from all over the country have
(32:54):
different backgrounds in golf, different handicaps, different world views. Are
you going to say what ball they have to do?
Speaker 5 (33:00):
Is? Mean course, the answers is known. And to your
point out you know this word bifurkate, it seems to
be like the one dressed up. You know, tiger love
is the word. It's been using it for years, like
people seem to know what the word is, but the
word is so abused. The game is not bifurkate. We
just play a totally different game. My little thing, you know, uh,
(33:20):
that has all sort of its own quirks as well.
And my thing, you can't make worse than triple. There's
nothing in the rule but says you can't make worse
than triple. But in my thing, you can't make worse
and triple. And the whole handicap system is the whole
entire handicap system is quote bifurcated. Because you're supposed to
turn in a stroke play score where putts are routinely given.
(33:42):
Those two things don't go in the hand in hand, right.
The gimme is a real thing in match play, and
it's totally an anomaly or not anomaly. It's it's anathema
to shop play competition, yet you combine the two so
that the PG excuse me, the governing has done a
very poor job of explaining that there really are two
(34:05):
different games. And and I think that's I think that's
a starting point recording seven years fround. I don't think
allan anyone's going to I don't think anyone's going to
care if.
Speaker 4 (34:15):
We I don't know, Well, this is a thought exercise.
Matt twenty thirty. Uncle Tony Invitational. Hopefully I'm there. Let's
say you hopefully I'm there.
Speaker 5 (34:24):
Yeah, so I.
Speaker 2 (34:26):
Won't maybe names like Kevin Price.
Speaker 4 (34:28):
But we have some hardos who like really follow the
rules of golf and are really into that. So some
of the guys come up to the Uncle Tony they
have the dead balls. I say, you know what, I'm
not down with the USGA. I'm I'm using my old ball.
Speaker 2 (34:40):
Gives me an advantage.
Speaker 4 (34:41):
I win the Uncle Tony Invitational. Some guys are pissed
off because I use an old ball and I had
an advantage, Like you, as the commissioner, how are you
going to deal with that?
Speaker 1 (34:52):
I did you know I kicked people out for not
wanting music. You know, I kick people out for you know,
bringing sh campaign instead of whine or tequila like that.
You know, I kick people out for complaining about who
they're paired with. Like I'm not kicking people out for
you know. We we go to Bandon Dune's and we
(35:12):
play the sixty two hundred yard tees and we let
the uncles you know, go all the way up where
you know, play from wherever you want to essentially play from.
I'm doing everything I can to try to make this
more fun. I always say my first advice to any
alpha planner of a Buddy's trip is play down to
your lowest common denominator. Essentially, in terms of budget, you've
(35:35):
got to make sure you don't price people out of
the destination. You want to make sure everybody comes along.
You want to have the highest handicappers be able to
have a chance to have fun and win. I don't
cater to like the two or three plus handicaps on
the trip and let the rest of the people suffer
the consequences. In fact, I let the lowest handicappers play
(36:01):
from where the forward tease so that we don't buy
for Kate the camaraderie of the event by having those
guys go all the way to the back teas and
us having to wait for them to hit, and then
we all wait and then we then hit. Oh I forgot, Sorry,
we have one more. I didn't know. You have to
hit like I'm trying to accommodate the group, the masses,
(36:21):
because everybody is paying to be there. And if the
good players end up shooting sixty five instead of shit
sixty nine, I don't really give a shit. I say,
that's really well played. All he done is pro is
an exceptional player. He has struggled the last few years.
He got his game in gear. He had four rounds
in the sixties, including on the Leado, which is great golf,
(36:43):
and he won the tournament. As you know, he and
his partner Andrew Fleming had a five or six handicap,
won the tournament. They beat all the net players because
they played the best golf. I don't really give it.
I don't really give a shit. And going back to
the tournament ball and the US in the RNA taking
the pile of cash that they're all sitting on that
(37:03):
they've been taking for all the entrants and all the
people who paid to be a part of these tournaments
and all the merchandise it's been sold. Making a tournament
ball and throwing up a purse of twenty million or
how are amid millions of dollars they put in terms
of a purse for the United States Open and hoist
that big trophy and have one of the majors. They
(37:24):
are sitting with the leverage in the power because they've
got the money for those events. If they set a
price of what you're playing for and this is the
US Open and it's a major championship, but you have
to play this tournament ball that we've created, people would
play it. And if the players don't want to play it,
they don't play it. Make it about that small slice
(37:47):
and ignore the rest of us and leave us alone.
Speaker 4 (37:52):
So we have an emerging consensus on this podcast. They
should have bifurcated. They didn't. Now they should go to
a tournament ball. And the thing that's interesting is if
they were to do that, that would be great for
Goat Hill because and shorter courses because not everybody wants
to buy percimmons or as access to Percimmons. But you
could go to Goat and you play the tournament ball,
(38:15):
and now instead of forty five hundred yards, it plays
more like fifty five hundred and essentially, you know, you
could take these these deador balls to par three courses
like Golden Gate Park, hit More Club if you want to.
Like I was actually on Grand Cayman, like I think
I was in high school and I played the Cayman
ball on that little course and it was like it
was fun. You know, you're playing a eighty yard hole
(38:36):
and you're hitting a three wood or whatever. And I
mean as as we as we we've been celebrating all
these part three courses, Like I think if you have
this this tournament ball, that you could be mass marketed
for shorter courses.
Speaker 2 (38:51):
That could be fun. It just that's all the real.
Speaker 1 (38:53):
I mean, people I walk up to go with Friday Skins.
Guys put in twenty bucks, some guys play Percimmons, some
guys out Todd Dempsey. Right now, as we're talking in
this conversation, through one round of the PGA Tour champions
Q School is four under par. He's playing the Q
School with Per Simmons that he made that he made
(39:16):
hand crafted. Todd Dempsey legend, Arizona State. Like this guy
is like a bona fide badass. He rolled it back himself,
and he's competing with the rest. He should roll back
is there. If you want it, you want it, go
take it, have at it, roll it back, do whatever
you want until you're blue in the face. I could
(39:37):
care less leave us alone.
Speaker 5 (39:40):
Tapping on what ball he's using.
Speaker 2 (39:42):
No, if he's using a gut of perza, I'll be
really impressed.
Speaker 1 (39:47):
Not Yeah, it's not all right.
Speaker 4 (39:50):
Well it's it's an interesting topic and it gets people
fired up, as listeners have heard on this podcast, especially.
Speaker 5 (39:58):
Where are you going in Australia?
Speaker 4 (40:00):
Yeah, we should we should mention that it's it's Wednesday,
late morning here in California. I'm going to be driving
to SFO here in a little bit and I'm going
to be flying to Melbourne, Australia for Jeff Ogilvie and
Michael Clayton's sand Belt Invitational, one of the coolest little
tournaments in golf. We've been covering it the last couple
of years on Firepit Collective dot com.
Speaker 2 (40:21):
I was just doing it from Afar.
Speaker 4 (40:22):
We had some video guys who are on site, but
I'm making the trip this year. I will be doing
daily dispatches, fun stuff on social try and wrangle a
few homies for a podcast perhaps and you know I've
I'll tweet it out. I Matt and I and a
couple other our friends did this the ultimate golf trip
(40:44):
probably in the history of golf trips, right for COVID
hit and we did Melbourne and Tasmania and king Island
that's in between, and it was it was epic. Also
New Zealand. I can't believe we did that in eight days.
And yeah, Melbourne is one of the all time great destinations.
Speaker 2 (41:00):
So I'm excited. I'll bring my golf clubs.
Speaker 4 (41:03):
I'm gonna be a little busy, but hopefully I can
sneak in some golf and it's it's just gonna be
It's gonna be a fun time. And I hope people
follow along because if you if you haven't paid attention
to the stamp but invitational, it brings together the pros and amateurs,
men and women, some some old AUSSI legends. You know,
we're seniors now playing it. So it's multi generation. It's
(41:25):
just they play a different course every day. Royal Melbourne,
Kingston Heath Peninsula, Kingwood, which is a neo Classic and
the fourth.
Speaker 2 (41:33):
The fourth venue rotates this year.
Speaker 4 (41:36):
It's Victoria, where there's a statue of Peter Thompson by
the first tea waiting to pass judgment on your t
shot and great golf course. Super fun place. We last
night of our trip, we stayed in the clubhouse there
and they have some rooms and.
Speaker 2 (41:52):
We were the people.
Speaker 4 (41:54):
The members kind of knew We've been on social media
for weeks playing all these golf courses and so they
were happy are there and one of the most fun
nights ever had in golf travel because they were so
welcoming and.
Speaker 2 (42:06):
Want to hear all our tall tales.
Speaker 4 (42:07):
So I'm looking forward to getting back to Victoria and yeah,
it's it's gonna be good fun.
Speaker 2 (42:12):
Thanks for mentioning that, Michael.
Speaker 5 (42:13):
I appreciate that. That shows you how much sway Clayton and
Ogle we have in the game when you when you
cite those courses, I mean, for people know Dolphin Australia,
that's uh, Marion and Seminole and Augusta National and psych Melbourne.
Speaker 1 (42:29):
Melbourne is like taking the best of Philadelphia, the best
of Chicago, the best of San Francisco, and the best
of New York and putting them all in like you know,
within driving distance, like within a very short amount. It's
an embarrassment of ridge. They have so many they can
rotate for the next few years and you'd never have
to play the same one over and over again. Victoria.
(42:50):
I got the chance to stay at Victoria Golf. We
we stayed in those little those rooms above the club out.
I mean, it's such an incredible golf course. And the
way that those fairways cut into those greens and there's
you know, and then on into those bunkers.
Speaker 2 (43:04):
It's like it's it's so pure.
Speaker 1 (43:08):
It is so pure well and.
Speaker 5 (43:09):
Just as quick quick as I hear. But it relates
to our theme when when Tiger played as the playing
captain in that i think twenty nineteen President's Cup, the
shots that he played there were so inventive and so
much more interesting than you know, the smash mouth golf
that we're customers saying. You know, i'd say at Hartford,
(43:30):
I'm not picking a Hartford, but that's what they do there.
It's a long, you know, it's a short, soft course,
but it was just interesting, and you know, maybe it's
a function of my age and the kind of golf
I grew up watching that. You know, I'm so drawn
to that kind of golf. But I don't know anybody
couldn't say that that was that's not better golf, and
that's that's the joy of the old course. It really
should be the joy of Augusta National only, especially when
(43:52):
it's dry at all, is to see guys pay fiddly
finesse difficult shots out of difficult lies in the ball move.
So anyway, I don't have a great grade trip, but
I think on the point that golf gets more interesting
when the ball is not so hot. And you know,
I just want to wrap up one quick thought here
(44:13):
because I feel like maybe i've been too harsh harsh
on the governing bodies, and I really do agree with
that first thing you said, you did have to do something,
and this is doing something, and I do think it's
a good thing that they're doing it, and they are
giving a lot a lot of the time, but it's
a major but it's not going to do anything for
the real issue that I think facing golf, which is
are these great courses from yesteryear are going to become relics?
(44:36):
That's really the honest to god issue, And I think
they have not really been willing to say that out loud.
Speaker 1 (44:42):
And I just want I want to clear up one
little factoid. Tom Brady played in ten Super Bowls, one
seven of them. We celebrate his greatness. Steph Curry is,
you know, revolutionizing the game of basketball, and we celebrate
Steph Curry's greatness. Lebron James, Wilt Chamberlain, you know, scored
one hundred points and they didn't raise the rim like
(45:04):
I Just what sort of always kind of half bugs
me about the game of golf is we can never
be satisfied and just simply celebrate greatness without overreacting and
tigerproofing or you know, rolling back the ball like it
just for whatever reason, we can't just simply say that's amazing, congratulations.
Speaker 5 (45:27):
And just a quickholo of that. Matt just proves how genius,
not really the golf governing guys can be. Is they
got they got tigetproofing totally wrong. Exactly you got it right,
was Nick Price. So you want to tigerproof, go to
sixty six hundred.
Speaker 1 (45:40):
Yards less is more. It's the answer to this has
always been shorter is the answer, not necessarily for the
ball but for the courses and the architecture and the
turnpoints and make it, make them be more accurate. And
I'm just I'm bummed. But I love golf. I know
we all love golf. Anybody who's listening right now still
(46:02):
loves golf. And this, to me is a bruise on
the game.
Speaker 5 (46:07):
I don't agree that. I don't think this is any
certa crisis. I think it's more like nothing.
Speaker 1 (46:11):
It's unnecessary, it's unnecessary.
Speaker 2 (46:14):
It's kind of an own goal.
Speaker 4 (46:15):
Well, I'm just gonna wrap up by saying that I
hope I'm still still Michael Clayton.
Speaker 2 (46:19):
By the way, No, don't let him in, leave him
in the waiting room.
Speaker 1 (46:24):
Yeah, why don't we, Alan, Why don't we let Michael go?
Speaker 2 (46:28):
And let's say a load to Michael.
Speaker 1 (46:32):
For another, doctor Bamberger, thank you? Yes, oh my god.
All right, I'm gonna patch Michael Clayton in. He's coming on.
As Bamberger is saying goodbye, We're trading one Michael for another.
We're going from Philly to Melbourne. Quite an exciting thing.
But we're gonna actually stop this podcast down. If you
care to listen to conversations with Michael Clayton that'll be
(46:55):
part two of our rollback conversation, Big Gun.
Speaker 3 (47:00):
I played the wind, made a fortune. When my ship
came in, I ran the table, never thought I could
fall down. The winter time hit me like a cannon
in the ball, and now I can't shape this losing streak.
Every road I take is a dead end street. I
(47:25):
got thoughts in my head, can't get them out, trying
not to think what I'm thinking about. I got the
thoughts in my head. I can't get them out, trying
not to think what I'm thinking about.
This is a big deal. We are talking about people
who pay to play. You're making rules because of what
you see based on people who get paid to play,
that impact the people who pay to play. That's a
bad decision.
Speaker 2 (00:21):
I got bouncing my head.
Speaker 3 (00:24):
Can't get him jh. Not to think what I'm thinking about.
Got bouncing my head. Can't get them out, joh, not
the thing what I'm thinking about.
Speaker 4 (00:43):
Hello, this is allan schipnook back for another Fire Drill podcast.
It's a big day in golf with the rollback announcement
by the USGA. There's a lot to talk about. We've
convened an all star panel of Matt Janella and Michael Bamberg.
We're hoping to get esteemed architect and thinker Michael Clayton.
(01:04):
He was supposed to be here now he may buzz
it at any moment. We'll patch him through. But there's
a lot to talk about real quick before we get
to the news of the day and what it means. Matt,
why don't you tip your cap to our corporate sponsors here?
Speaker 1 (01:19):
Oh, I mean, you know you've heard it before, you've
listened to this podcast. But obviously link soul and that
lifestyle brand that you know I'm proud to be affiliated
with and to where you know on and off the
golf course. Go to link soul dot com use fire
Pit twenty five for twenty five percent off your next
purchase of all Links Soul gear. I'm especially a fond
(01:41):
of the flat brims and the hoodies, regardless of my age.
And the Dormy Workshop, the company that does fine leather
goods and does our head covers and anything else that
we make made of leather. They're just simply, in my opinion,
the best in the business. And we also have a
(02:02):
promo code fire Pit fifteen for fifteen percent off your
next purchase on dormy workshop dot com.
Speaker 2 (02:12):
Awesome, All right, let's get to it.
Speaker 4 (02:14):
There's a lot to talk about here, and Michael, you
wrote a very thoughtful piece for five by Collective dot
Com sticking out a little bit of a middle ground
that the rollback was necessary, but it's not going to
have a cataclysmic effect on all of us now that
it's here, now it's official. What does this mean for
(02:36):
the professional game and then for guys like us?
Speaker 5 (02:39):
Uncharacteristically, Alan you understated, I think I'll have no impact
on us. The three of us on this conversation, and
little I think there's they split say there's sixty nine golfers,
literally fifty nine point nine to nine million golfers. They
will have no effect. You'll never know the difference, just
like I would say to the three of us, if
(02:59):
you get a top flight in a pro v one,
we can barely tell the difference in terms of distance,
in terms of click and everything else. So I think,
but in terms of what they really wanted to do
to have an impact on the best golfers in the
world and make I think this is their real goal,
make classic classic golf course is still meaningful at meaningful
park lives and the rest thirteenth, Augusta National and many
other examples. I don't think it's going to do it
(03:21):
at all.
Speaker 4 (03:23):
I mean, you're Matt. Your point is, if they're going
to do it, they didn't go far enough right. They
should have rolled it back more if they were going
to do it.
Speaker 1 (03:30):
To Michael's point, like then why are we doing Like then,
why are we Why are we going through this? What
is actually happening right now? What is being done? What
just got announced in twenty twenty three, that's going to
go to effect in twenty twenty, like the none of this,
(03:50):
you know, makes any sense to me, So I'm just
not you know, it's such a small percentage of people
that it's apparently going to impact, but then it's also
eventually going to end packed some of us. But by
the time we get to twenty thirty, I'm already dealing
with rollback. It's called age. Like everybody's going through it.
Tiger Woods is going through it. Phil Mickelson is fighting
(04:12):
the fight of being able to actually still say he
hits bombs. Like the longest hitters aren't winning or dominating,
They're playing a different brand of golf. There's you know,
none of this. Is it that one hundred and fiftieth
Open that we were there at Saint Andrew's in which
guys were driving the eighteenth with a threewood in you know,
(04:34):
burnt out conditions in a summer stretch of time in
Scotland in which the fairways rolling faster than the greens.
Was that so optically unsettling to them that they were like,
that's it, we have to do it. What is going
on right now?
Speaker 4 (04:52):
I mean, I think the answer and Mike One has
said this in it's sort of a sensible way, is
we had to do something. We can't do nothing, because
if you project seven years from now when guys are
driving it, three seventy three, eighty three, ninety four hundred,
whatever the norm was going to become, if it went
completely unchecked, like they had to draw the proverbial line
(05:14):
in the sand.
Speaker 2 (05:15):
And maybe this is just the opening salvo.
Speaker 4 (05:18):
If the USGA had come and said we're going to
roll it back twenty five percent for the pros or
thirty percent, there would have been mutiny and anarchy. We're
already sort of seeing that a little bit. But maybe
they start with this rollback and then they keep dialing
it back a little bit more so the old courses
and the marions and those courses can be relevant. Again,
(05:39):
I don't know that to be true, but I think
they had to set some kind of precedent that we're
still the sheriff of this game, that we still.
Speaker 2 (05:46):
Need a little bit of law and order.
Speaker 4 (05:49):
And you know, there's that legal term splitting the baby,
where you kind of come to a compromise it's not
really satisfactory to either side.
Speaker 2 (05:55):
It's a little bit like that.
Speaker 4 (05:56):
It wasn't enough of a rollback, but it's something and
everybody's mad. But at least they've started the governance process,
so that would be my answer to your question is
what is happening is they had to start somewhere, and
this is where they started.
Speaker 2 (06:11):
This may not be the end.
Speaker 5 (06:13):
Now what have you done with Alan Schipnak out there
on the west coast? When did it get so measured
and reasonable? This is very weird slash unsettling. But I
do agree with everything Alan said. I truly despite everything
I said before, I truly do agree with everything Alan said.
You do have to have a line on this end,
and you can't just let it keep escalating. And if
this is a line of the sand, which I don't
(06:34):
really believe it will be, it's better than nothing. But
I think, at the risk of repeating myself, they didn't
or maybe this is saying a new thing. I don't
think they really identified the problem and the problem. You know, Matt,
HiT's the long way, and you do too, Alan, but
that is.
Speaker 2 (06:50):
Not the problem.
Speaker 5 (06:51):
You're not going to abandon dunes and the part five
so are obsolutely the problem is super super narrow. It's
golf on TV at the best courses in the world.
I don't know the numbers that Nicholas said it, but
Nicholas said, you know there used to be that someone
could help me here. Maybe you know, there used to
be five in your courses that could in the world,
that could hold major championships. Now there's one hundred, whatever
the numbers are, but it's something on the order of that,
(07:12):
and that's not good for golf. You know, these great
old courses are worth preserving. And if they don't have
legitimate part fives and you know, two shot part fours,
then they sort of the game gets it's a lesser
game actually without the old courses and the marriage being meaningful.
Speaker 4 (07:31):
Well, and this also it speaks to this how this
process was so messy because you know, Matt, you've you've
been pretty forceful on social media that this is the
wrong time for a rollback for the amateur golfer as
the game is exploding in popularity, as we were bringing
all kinds of new people to game, and the message
now is we want to make it harder for you.
That's a bad message. You know, bifurcation was on the table.
(07:54):
That would have made sense. You could have you could
have throttled back the pros as much as you want
and not messed with the rest of us. But the
ball manufacturers didn't want that, and they control the players well,
I mean because they take their cues from the manufacturers
who pay the bills. So the pros and the manufacturers
(08:16):
killed by furcation, and so then that sort of backed
the USGA into a corner, like, if we're gonna do anything,
it's got to be for everybody now, So it's ironic
that we could have had a sensible solution that don't
touch the amateurs, just deal with this very tiny subset
of golfers who do smash the you know, ungodly distances,
(08:36):
But the manufacturers and the players killed that the tour players.
Speaker 2 (08:40):
So now.
Speaker 4 (08:43):
Now it's affecting all of us. But the crazy thing
is the PGA Tour and the pg of America have
kind of signaled they're not into this, and certainly Live
Golf is not gonna be into it.
Speaker 2 (08:52):
So we may get into this.
Speaker 4 (08:53):
Bizarro world scenario where the professional circuits opt out of
this and they choose not to follow this rule, but
it affects the amates. So all the pros have unchecked distance,
but the amateurs are getting penalized like that makes my
brain hurt. There's a long way to get to that moment,
but it's theoretically possible, and that's insanity.
Speaker 1 (09:13):
Well so so so okay, all of that being said,
and the USGA trying to ultimately protect let's say, their championships,
and the RNA trying to protect their Open championship and venues,
and why don't they Why don't they just simply then
(09:34):
get into the business of making a tournament ball, much
like what people wanted Augusta to do several years ago
at the Masters, to say, create a tournament ball and
say this is the ball you're gonna have to play
at my championship or mid championships in the case of
the RNA and the and the USGA, and say, in
order to play this championship, you have to play this ball.
(09:56):
And then they're going they then you take the manufacturer
is out of the equation. You control your situation as
it relates to your championships, which is the only place
that any of this actually matters, and just isolate that
situation and say and do whatever you want, make the
rules that you want to have people to adhere to,
(10:19):
and then let everybody else decide if that's something they
want to do at their tournament, at their course, in
their search coumstensus, not unlike, you know, let's go all
the way down to go Hill Park in the Wishbone
bral where John Asher says in order to have the
course record, you have to play Per Simmons, and the
Wishbone Ball brawl is played with Per Simmons and men
play against women. And it's all, you know, like, there
(10:41):
is ways to do this that simply you know, blanket
statements and doing these this rule rule changes and rollbacks
to the masses just doesn't make sense to me. Yeah,
what No, seriously, let's get back. Why wouldn't they just
do that and make ball. They're sitting on it, piles
(11:01):
of cash. They've used these championships to raise the money
to you know, they have the money, go make.
Speaker 2 (11:09):
You own ball.
Speaker 4 (11:11):
I mean, it's it makes sense except the most important tournaments.
And now you're if the players, you know, twenty five
weeks a year, are you using a different ball on
the tour because they don't want to give up that
competitive advantage because other guys are using it. Then you
come to the Masters of the US Open. It's the
most important championship. You got to learn this new ball
(11:33):
and then you know, it's it's to be fun.
Speaker 2 (11:35):
It'd be interesting. It'd be a great talking point.
Speaker 1 (11:37):
But baseball, you go to a different field. You got
to hit it further and right field, then you have
to go to left field. You've got you know that's true.
Speaker 4 (11:43):
I mean in tennis, you know, tennis is messed with
the ball different on different surfaces and different things like
it wouldn't be unprecedented, they would just be. It would
be a big deal. It would be a sea change.
Speaker 1 (11:53):
I mean, I would love this. It's a big deal.
This is a big deal. We are talking about people
who pay to play. You're making rules because of what
you see based on people who get paid to play
that impact the people who pay to play. That's a
bad decision. This is your client, tele this is your customer.
(12:15):
This These are the people thirty years ago that you
would have given anything to have them show up and
pay to play this game. And they're here now and
we're saying and we're going to shut the door on
their face and say, uh sorry, I know the game
is hard. It's really hard. That's why the game is
so hard that things like top golf and Part three
(12:36):
courses and short courses, and that that's the actual trend
that's happening right now. Sustainability issues, well, guess what the
game is already shrinking, grasses are improving, pottable water is
going away and more. The trend is to reclaim water
to water these golf courses. So throw the sustainability stuff
out and it's going to correct itself by water prices
(12:58):
and everything that else is involved. This is not the
solution to anything related to sustainability. This is not the
solution to grow the game. And all the marketing efforts
that you've put forward governing bodies to try to get
us there, all of that is now a massive contradiction
and a big, unnecessary pr nightmare that we're all going
(13:20):
to have to endure for the next tk coming years.
And it's unnecessary and it's driving me crazy because you
know why, and I think we can all agree we
love this game.
Speaker 2 (13:32):
Why do we love.
Speaker 1 (13:33):
This game because of the places it takes us, the
people we meet, the relationships we forge, the experiences we have,
the opportunities we have to have that camaraderie community and
show up and also share it with the people who
matter most family, friends, our children, their children. So the
(13:55):
reason why I want to grow the game, and why
I was so supportive of the Grow the Game efforts
and why everyone got behind that movement is that very reason,
because we want people to have the experiences that we've
all been blessed to have relating to golf. If you
suck the game of golf out of my life and
all the relationships I've had because of golf, I'd have
(14:16):
almost nothing. That's why I care about it. That's why
I post, and that's why I want it to continue
to grow, because golf creates good people, and good people
is exactly what we need right now in this world.
And if the person that's showing up and playing music
too loud or is not conforming to the general etiquette
(14:38):
of what the game is, guess what. We stop them
and go.
Speaker 2 (14:42):
By the way.
Speaker 1 (14:43):
Carts can't drive over the green. Oh, by the way,
this is goad Hill Park. This John Ashworth created this community.
Please don't just run over arbitrarily. The signs that are
saying parts this way. You coach them up. That's part
of the process that community kicks in and we right
the ship and we correct the wrongs and we make
(15:06):
better people because of it. Why is first t exists?
Why does uthon course happen because you want kids in
the game so that they can become better people.
Speaker 2 (15:18):
What are we doing?
Speaker 1 (15:20):
Matt?
Speaker 2 (15:20):
I wish you had some passion on this.
Speaker 1 (15:21):
So this is madness. The governing bodies literally loaded a
gun and just shot themselves in their own feet.
Speaker 4 (15:30):
Well, okay, let me play Devil's advocate here. I mean,
for the beginning golfer. I agree that optically it's not
a great message. But for people who just learn to
play the game, who don't swing the club that hard
or well, they probably won't even notice the difference when
the ball goes back. Well that's the question. I mean,
that's why bifurcation would have made sense. I think you know, Michael,
(15:54):
your point was it? And I like the top flight
versus provy one. Maybe some of us would know the difference,
But if we're talking about the beginners, they certain they
certainly wouldn't. They're just trying to find the club phase.
I mean, Michael, in your mind, what what is the
way forward? Like, where does the game go from this moment?
Speaker 5 (16:16):
Well, the greatness about the about the four majors when
people actually do watch golf and like say Hartford and
waste Man, well, Wasteman, it's not for an example, but
you know, the ordinary pH to event or the ordinary
live event is that those events invited massive, massive audiences.
And this this dovetails with with with with medicine. And
(16:38):
if we when we watch ordinary golf, it's driver eight
iron or driver sandwich into so many part forwards and
we can't relate because we're not doing that. But if
those four, let's call it, even five times a year,
if the players got on board with it, if you
did have a special ball for those events, it would
make golf even more inviting because we the public and
especially beginners people near to the game, would relate even
(16:59):
more to what they're doing on TV because it would
at least start to approach what we're doing, which isn't
happening now. Now the game is so bifurcated already, but
they're not willing to admit it. You know. Rory McRoy
said that the other day, he said, you think the
clubs that I played and you play are the same.
Of course not. They're so finally tuned to their exact needs.
We go to Dick's Sporting Goods about whatever the guy
(17:20):
gives us, or if the person gives us. So I
think there is really I think that governing bodies didn't
really really identify the problem. The problem is not running
out of land at ninety nine percent of the thick
golf courses. It's this tiny sliver of courses where they
are running out of land. They can't make the course
(17:41):
long enough, and we can't really relate to what they're doing.
And to your point Alan about, you know, would it
really would it be fair to make a guy to play,
you know, one ball twenty five weeks a year. To
Bad's point about, you know, you got a short porch,
you know, Fenway and a different one at Yankee Stadium
and Rety and all the rest. Adjust, just adjust. It
(18:01):
would be another part of the challenge. So I think
it would. I think it would have been really neat.
You know, of course we're not old enough to remember it,
but the diming rule was once to think, can you
imagine at one point, you know, people are like, can
you believe they're going to give it to the steming rule?
Now that this next generation hasn't even heard of it,
And why would they so like if you did something
quote radical, like actually give the athlete a ball to
(18:25):
use in these four or five different tournaments, it would
seem crazy and outrageous for a while, and then it
just wouldn't. It would just be normal. And of course,
of course in every other sport pretty much except for bowling,
that's what happens the governing body because every putting on
the event gives you a ball and go play. And
even to the last thing. I know, the manufacturers would
(18:45):
go crazy about this, but you could even have of
course it would be expensive and blah blah blah, but
you could have the different manufacturers make the tournament ball
that would be used in these four or five different tournaments. Okay, great,
they can still get their name out there.
Speaker 1 (18:59):
The thing, the other thing that drives me crazy just
to say, is like, why why just the ball, Like
you know, let's roll back mowing, let's row back mowers,
and let's go to longer length fairways, let's grow out rough.
I mean, the pros don't like to play with long rough,
so guess what, there's no more long rough anyway. They
don't play in long rough. They don't. They don't really
(19:21):
like it. You know the pros are going to always
just do this is this is a such a small
set and an entertainment factor factory, and they're getting paid
to put on a show and what we think the
show should be or could be or supposed to be,
it doesn't matter if they don't if they don't go
(19:42):
along with it. It's like you still need to get
buy in from them. And if you get buy in
from them, then it doesn't matter from us. And once
they passed on it, then why are Why is the
solution then to to to go and pick on everybody,
you know, everybody at school, Like it just makes no
sense to me.
Speaker 4 (20:00):
They did address the fairway height in the in the
in the report on the distance, and they said it
was pretty negligible in two to four yards maybe longer.
Speaker 1 (20:12):
Fairweaight cards For what they're saying, right, it is like
you know almost a third of what they're actually proposing.
So if you take fairway length, if you limit the
loft in the club head and say okay, you can
only use thirteen degrees and higher, you can't go down
to an eight degree loft, if you can only have
a certain length of shaft, if you can only have
(20:34):
a certain clubhead size. You know, why, why does it
have anything really to do? You know, like why do
you just single out the ball and just say.
Speaker 2 (20:45):
That's the issue. You know, hard and faster.
Speaker 1 (20:48):
We're seeing the ball roll thirty to seventy yards after
it lands on these fairways.
Speaker 2 (20:55):
Yeah, I think on some level.
Speaker 4 (20:58):
The ball is an easy scale go if you wanted
to get into the systemic issues and you could go
down a rabbit hole, you know, you could regulate t
height you get to.
Speaker 1 (21:08):
We are in that hole. This is where we are.
This is where we've we've we we are not going
down the rabbit hole. We have been shoved into.
Speaker 2 (21:15):
The rabbit hole.
Speaker 1 (21:16):
Yeah, well, unnecessarily. And that's also part of my frustration.
You know, the professional game, as you guys both know,
is an absolute shit show, dumpster fire, uh, inside out,
upside down and backwards. It's it's just like to the
point where people are tuning out and moving on at
(21:40):
a big at a big rate, and now the governing
bodies of the so called quote masses are going to
throw this grenade into that room.
Speaker 2 (21:54):
Well, it does.
Speaker 4 (21:54):
It does get interesting because golf but louder does not
really dovetail with shorter driving distances. So what Live is
going to do and what the PGA Tour is going
to do, and they don't have to be in lockstep
assuming this framework agreement blows up, even if it's consummated,
like they're not bound by there's no nitty gritty in
that that they're gonna have to follow the same competition rules.
(22:16):
So then you can you know what one tour does
versus the other. To your point, Matt, it gets messy.
Speaker 2 (22:22):
I think Michael.
Speaker 4 (22:24):
Mentioned this earlier. I mean professional golf on TV has
never been more boring, and some of that is just
the style of play when they do go to I
think it's like that old Donald Ross course outside Detroit.
I mean, the guys are in wedge into every single hole.
Is just so boring because you give a pro a
wedge either going to hit a great shot or a
(22:45):
good shot. There's no danger. You know, either they're going
to be thirty feet, they're going to be five feet.
But the range of outcomes is so small. That's why
I like bifurcation. I like the more severe rollback where
the game becomes more interesting to Watts.
Speaker 1 (23:00):
In the first four by f Kid, I was for
just for the record, I'm for by furcation. Do whatever,
you know, like do whatever you want to do the
pros and and get them on board.
Speaker 4 (23:09):
And that's said that to me is such a miss.
Here is you know, the the PGA tour helped kill it.
I mean they're still writing letters to the USG They're
still pushing back, and it's their product that's suffering. I mean,
their product has never been more anadyne and more just
it's just predictable. And it's their product, you know what
(23:31):
I mean, Like look at the NFL. What a mess
the NFL is, But it's their product. Like they're gonna
have to address the tush push like that's you know,
you know, I don't Calvin Johnson came along. He was
really tall and he's unguardable. Randy Moss was an elite
athlete who was basically unstoppable for a chunk of time.
I mean Tom Brady won seven supers, you know, was
(23:51):
it played in seven Super Bowls?
Speaker 2 (23:53):
Like what what?
Speaker 1 (23:55):
Like does that mean? We just have like what do
we what are we doing? We just sort of react
based on everything that continues to happen at the elite level.
And the difference here being is that you're making decisions
that affect the people who pay to play. What if
you put polls in front of everybody's seats in the
grandstands of people who are watching football and say we're
(24:16):
gonna make it harder for you to watch the game
that you're paying to play.
Speaker 5 (24:21):
Matt, what would you answer to this question if let's
say Mike Wan and Slumbers and Fred Ridley called you
zoom called just like this one. They said, Mat, You've
been around the game all your life. What do you
see as the issue with the game right now as
it relates to this one narrow thing? How far the
golf ball goes?
Speaker 1 (24:39):
I don't see it. I do not do well. I
just don't see it. Buddies trip we have on our
annual Buddies trip, we have a range of plus handicaps
to twenty four handicaps. If anything, distance is an issue
for the greater majority of the people on the trip
in terms of the ball doesn't go far enough golf.
Speaker 2 (25:00):
Go go play lido.
Speaker 1 (25:01):
Right now from the forward t's and if you shoot
your handicap, I'll send you a hat. Right now, Go
play the lido at Sand Valley. And you think you're
going to go out there and overpower that golf course.
This is one of the old classics that was built
to be a tough golf course. Like, you know, I
(25:22):
don't see it. I don't see it anywhere. I don't
see it at Tory Pines. I don't see it at
Beth Page. I don't see the distance is not an
issue unless we turn on the TV and we think
we're going to ask ourselves. And if you're at a
private club and distance is an issue, maybe you have
an issue with an architecture of that golf course or
where that bunker was originally. Like, really, there's enough people
(25:45):
in your membership at your private club that you all
pay to play that this is a problem that should
in somehow impact the masses. Do whatever you want at
your club, do whatever you want at the pur But
for the people who rock up at goad Hill Park
forty five yards par sixty five, eight par threes, you
(26:07):
know what the issue is. It's golf is too hard.
That's the issue. So anything we're doing to make it
harder makes no sense, and it's going to affect the
bottom line at that little mini municipal who's fighting for
its life to try to get more people to rock
up and pay to play.
Speaker 5 (26:27):
Alan, what do you what do you think? Alan? What
do you think? Like? My contention is they haven't really
been forth right about what they think the problem is.
But what is what's your take on.
Speaker 4 (26:39):
When you say they are you are you talking about
the ruling bodies as the day.
Speaker 2 (26:44):
Yeah, they think the.
Speaker 5 (26:45):
Problem is really really whether they're saying it publicly or not.
Speaker 4 (26:51):
Yeah, I mean Matt touched on the problem is that
the two tournaments are being most affected by the distance
explosion is the US Open and the British Open, because
they're locked into these old traditional venues that have gotten
so short. And it's we have a measuring stick and
(27:12):
you go back to the old course every five years
you can see, you know, no one's hitting drive off eighteenymore.
It is too short at the old course. I mean
it's a three wooded computer. In five years are going
to be you know, uh Lude, big a bear and
and Gordon Sargent. I'm gonna be hitting three irons and
driving the green quickly quickly.
Speaker 5 (27:31):
I would definitely add as Nation to that list. I
guess too, so that everybody and their mother reaches eight
now No, so that, so that that is the issue
for the governing vice.
Speaker 2 (27:41):
They've been asleep at the wheel for decades.
Speaker 4 (27:43):
Distances have gone unchecked, and where it's most obvious is
at their most important championships. And so I think they're embarrassed,
Like you know, they play the old course they have
they put tea's on the eden and the new course
and in ob areas and all this ridiculousness just to
try and make it something like the shot values that
have always been there.
Speaker 2 (28:02):
So that's what I think.
Speaker 4 (28:03):
That's why I think is driving this is they have
egg on their face every year when it's clear that
their their malfeasance and their ineptitude has allowed the professional
game to become to run amok, and so they they
have to do something because of their own championships.
Speaker 2 (28:23):
It's only two.
Speaker 5 (28:24):
Weeks a year, just for four or five weeks a year. Yeah, Like, no,
no LPG event feels that way that I could imagine,
no way. Now players felt the player the TPC sawgrass course,
they would probably identify with all of that. Got me,
eighteen Can you match your guys playing eighteen at the
three arn and a six arm? Which they do? You
(28:44):
know you hit a three arm and you hit it
right down the right side the Boks and then you'll
hit a cut six iron in there. I mean, that's
not what Pete I wanted. So so okay, I think
that I'm based on what you just said, we're totally
on the same page. So on that basis, I'm with
you with the line in the sand. But why not,
as Matt and I have both been saying, why not
just have a golf ball for these four or five
weeks a year.
Speaker 4 (29:05):
It's certainly feasible, And now that's going to be the
only solution since since they've officially punted on bifurcation as
a governing principle, then the tournament ball becomes the last hope.
But to me, I mean, I like you said, I
think you said it. Well, Michael, it seems crazy, but
then after a couple of years, it's not a big deal.
(29:27):
And you know, when I coached high school basketball, we
use a certain kind of basketball all year long. We
get to the CCS playoffs, they have a deal a
different manufacturer. They handle this ball pre game. It feels weird,
it doesn't dribble the same. The girls don't like it. Well,
too bad. This is the ball we're using. You got
fifteen minutes of warmups to get used to it, and
you go play. It's still a round ball that bounces,
(29:50):
so I mean it exists in sports like but.
Speaker 5 (29:54):
That is sport right there. It's like when when Phil
complained about the two hundred and seventy yard par three
may who cares? Is two seventy for everybody? Done? Right there.
Speaker 1 (30:04):
College baseball players play their whole lives with middle bats,
and in order to make the pros, they have to
adjust to a wooden bat. The you know, the the goat.
Let's let's pull the caddies. Okay, let's go to Saint
Andrews and the Old Course and ask the caddies if
we think we need to roll the ball back to
make the Old Course more relevant. Let's go to Pebble
(30:24):
Beach and ask the caddies if we think this is
a good idea to roll the ball back for the
people who are rocking up and playing Pebble Beach. I
know for a fact that the caddies at Sand Valley
dread the idea that they're going to have to caddy
for these amateurs at the Lido on a daily basis
and have to witness the carnage that's going to be
(30:45):
displayed out there for all these people who love the
architecture and playing one of these classical golf courses and
they're making putting out for sixes, sevens, eights. Please pick
it up, you're making a nine. Please, it's over. Let's
go and talk to the caddies about which course they
like to caddy at Bandon Dunes more is it Pacific
(31:06):
Dunes or is it is it Sheep Ranch? Like this
is like this.
Speaker 2 (31:12):
This is this right?
Speaker 4 (31:14):
So okay, this is where we've come to in this podcast.
We all three of us agree they should have bifurcated.
Speaker 2 (31:20):
They didn't.
Speaker 4 (31:21):
So now an interesting question becomes what happens in seven years,
Like will will the golfers rebel? Will they just will
they just opt out? You know, none of us are
playing in big time amateur events. We're just playing with
our friends. So when you get to the first t
in two thousand and January first, two thousand and thirty,
(31:41):
do you say, boys, you know, I've got some pro
v ones that are year and a half old.
Speaker 2 (31:45):
I'm going to use them. I don't know what you got,
you know, like.
Speaker 4 (31:48):
It's it's just like when we play, we grant each
other mulligans. Occasionally there's certainly gimme's, Like all of us
have our own low key interpretation of the rules as
it is now. So what do you think will the
average golfer embrace the new dead ball? Or in mass
(32:10):
are we just going to vote with our pocketbooks and
ignore the rule?
Speaker 2 (32:14):
Like, what's going to happen?
Speaker 5 (32:16):
People are going to be I don't care. People are
going to be I don't care. You know, I've been
playing these iwos. I don't know if they're legal or not.
I think they are. I think their grandfather did. I
don't care. Now if it was actually playing in something
where someone cared and said, okay, well if you care them,
I care. But otherwise I don't care.
Speaker 4 (32:32):
Well, I mean, so, Matt, Matt, you you organize an
annual Buddies trip. People know about the Uncle Tony motasal Michael,
you have an annual gathering called the Shiviz where you
bring together, you know, a couple dozen guys to play.
So what is going to happen in twenty thirty? Are
you going to have to specify to this motley crew
of friends who come from all over the country have
(32:54):
different backgrounds in golf, different handicaps, different world views. Are
you going to say what ball they have to do?
Speaker 5 (33:00):
Is? Mean course, the answers is known. And to your
point out you know this word bifurkate, it seems to
be like the one dressed up. You know, tiger love
is the word. It's been using it for years, like
people seem to know what the word is, but the
word is so abused. The game is not bifurkate. We
just play a totally different game. My little thing, you know, uh,
(33:20):
that has all sort of its own quirks as well.
And my thing, you can't make worse than triple. There's
nothing in the rule but says you can't make worse
than triple. But in my thing, you can't make worse
and triple. And the whole handicap system is the whole
entire handicap system is quote bifurcated. Because you're supposed to
turn in a stroke play score where putts are routinely given.
(33:42):
Those two things don't go in the hand in hand, right.
The gimme is a real thing in match play, and
it's totally an anomaly or not anomaly. It's it's anathema
to shop play competition, yet you combine the two so
that the PG excuse me, the governing has done a
very poor job of explaining that there really are two
(34:05):
different games. And and I think that's I think that's
a starting point recording seven years fround. I don't think
allan anyone's going to I don't think anyone's going to
care if.
Speaker 4 (34:15):
We I don't know, Well, this is a thought exercise.
Matt twenty thirty. Uncle Tony Invitational. Hopefully I'm there. Let's
say you hopefully I'm there.
Speaker 5 (34:24):
Yeah, so I.
Speaker 2 (34:26):
Won't maybe names like Kevin Price.
Speaker 4 (34:28):
But we have some hardos who like really follow the
rules of golf and are really into that. So some
of the guys come up to the Uncle Tony they
have the dead balls. I say, you know what, I'm
not down with the USGA. I'm I'm using my old ball.
Speaker 2 (34:40):
Gives me an advantage.
Speaker 4 (34:41):
I win the Uncle Tony Invitational. Some guys are pissed
off because I use an old ball and I had
an advantage, Like you, as the commissioner, how are you
going to deal with that?
Speaker 1 (34:52):
I did you know I kicked people out for not
wanting music. You know, I kick people out for you know,
bringing sh campaign instead of whine or tequila like that.
You know, I kick people out for complaining about who
they're paired with. Like I'm not kicking people out for
you know. We we go to Bandon Dune's and we
(35:12):
play the sixty two hundred yard tees and we let
the uncles you know, go all the way up where
you know, play from wherever you want to essentially play from.
I'm doing everything I can to try to make this
more fun. I always say my first advice to any
alpha planner of a Buddy's trip is play down to
your lowest common denominator. Essentially, in terms of budget, you've
(35:35):
got to make sure you don't price people out of
the destination. You want to make sure everybody comes along.
You want to have the highest handicappers be able to
have a chance to have fun and win. I don't
cater to like the two or three plus handicaps on
the trip and let the rest of the people suffer
the consequences. In fact, I let the lowest handicappers play
(36:01):
from where the forward tease so that we don't buy
for Kate the camaraderie of the event by having those
guys go all the way to the back teas and
us having to wait for them to hit, and then
we all wait and then we then hit. Oh I forgot, Sorry,
we have one more. I didn't know. You have to
hit like I'm trying to accommodate the group, the masses,
(36:21):
because everybody is paying to be there. And if the
good players end up shooting sixty five instead of shit
sixty nine, I don't really give a shit. I say,
that's really well played. All he done is pro is
an exceptional player. He has struggled the last few years.
He got his game in gear. He had four rounds
in the sixties, including on the Leado, which is great golf,
(36:43):
and he won the tournament. As you know, he and
his partner Andrew Fleming had a five or six handicap,
won the tournament. They beat all the net players because
they played the best golf. I don't really give it.
I don't really give a shit. And going back to
the tournament ball and the US in the RNA taking
the pile of cash that they're all sitting on that
(37:03):
they've been taking for all the entrants and all the
people who paid to be a part of these tournaments
and all the merchandise it's been sold. Making a tournament
ball and throwing up a purse of twenty million or
how are amid millions of dollars they put in terms
of a purse for the United States Open and hoist
that big trophy and have one of the majors. They
(37:24):
are sitting with the leverage in the power because they've
got the money for those events. If they set a
price of what you're playing for and this is the
US Open and it's a major championship, but you have
to play this tournament ball that we've created, people would
play it. And if the players don't want to play it,
they don't play it. Make it about that small slice
(37:47):
and ignore the rest of us and leave us alone.
Speaker 4 (37:52):
So we have an emerging consensus on this podcast. They
should have bifurcated. They didn't. Now they should go to
a tournament ball. And the thing that's interesting is if
they were to do that, that would be great for
Goat Hill because and shorter courses because not everybody wants
to buy percimmons or as access to Percimmons. But you
could go to Goat and you play the tournament ball,
(38:15):
and now instead of forty five hundred yards, it plays
more like fifty five hundred and essentially, you know, you
could take these these deador balls to par three courses
like Golden Gate Park, hit More Club if you want to.
Like I was actually on Grand Cayman, like I think
I was in high school and I played the Cayman
ball on that little course and it was like it
was fun. You know, you're playing a eighty yard hole
(38:36):
and you're hitting a three wood or whatever. And I
mean as as we as we we've been celebrating all
these part three courses, Like I think if you have
this this tournament ball, that you could be mass marketed
for shorter courses.
Speaker 2 (38:51):
That could be fun. It just that's all the real.
Speaker 1 (38:53):
I mean, people I walk up to go with Friday Skins.
Guys put in twenty bucks, some guys play Percimmons, some
guys out Todd Dempsey. Right now, as we're talking in
this conversation, through one round of the PGA Tour champions
Q School is four under par. He's playing the Q
School with Per Simmons that he made that he made
(39:16):
hand crafted. Todd Dempsey legend, Arizona State. Like this guy
is like a bona fide badass. He rolled it back himself,
and he's competing with the rest. He should roll back
is there. If you want it, you want it, go
take it, have at it, roll it back, do whatever
you want until you're blue in the face. I could
(39:37):
care less leave us alone.
Speaker 5 (39:40):
Tapping on what ball he's using.
Speaker 2 (39:42):
No, if he's using a gut of perza, I'll be
really impressed.
Speaker 1 (39:47):
Not Yeah, it's not all right.
Speaker 4 (39:50):
Well it's it's an interesting topic and it gets people
fired up, as listeners have heard on this podcast, especially.
Speaker 5 (39:58):
Where are you going in Australia?
Speaker 4 (40:00):
Yeah, we should we should mention that it's it's Wednesday,
late morning here in California. I'm going to be driving
to SFO here in a little bit and I'm going
to be flying to Melbourne, Australia for Jeff Ogilvie and
Michael Clayton's sand Belt Invitational, one of the coolest little
tournaments in golf. We've been covering it the last couple
of years on Firepit Collective dot com.
Speaker 2 (40:21):
I was just doing it from Afar.
Speaker 4 (40:22):
We had some video guys who are on site, but
I'm making the trip this year. I will be doing
daily dispatches, fun stuff on social try and wrangle a
few homies for a podcast perhaps and you know I've
I'll tweet it out. I Matt and I and a
couple other our friends did this the ultimate golf trip
(40:44):
probably in the history of golf trips, right for COVID
hit and we did Melbourne and Tasmania and king Island
that's in between, and it was it was epic. Also
New Zealand. I can't believe we did that in eight days.
And yeah, Melbourne is one of the all time great destinations.
Speaker 2 (41:00):
So I'm excited. I'll bring my golf clubs.
Speaker 4 (41:03):
I'm gonna be a little busy, but hopefully I can
sneak in some golf and it's it's just gonna be
It's gonna be a fun time. And I hope people
follow along because if you if you haven't paid attention
to the stamp but invitational, it brings together the pros and amateurs,
men and women, some some old AUSSI legends. You know,
we're seniors now playing it. So it's multi generation. It's
(41:25):
just they play a different course every day. Royal Melbourne,
Kingston Heath Peninsula, Kingwood, which is a neo Classic and
the fourth.
Speaker 2 (41:33):
The fourth venue rotates this year.
Speaker 4 (41:36):
It's Victoria, where there's a statue of Peter Thompson by
the first tea waiting to pass judgment on your t
shot and great golf course. Super fun place. We last
night of our trip, we stayed in the clubhouse there
and they have some rooms and.
Speaker 2 (41:52):
We were the people.
Speaker 4 (41:54):
The members kind of knew We've been on social media
for weeks playing all these golf courses and so they
were happy are there and one of the most fun
nights ever had in golf travel because they were so
welcoming and.
Speaker 2 (42:06):
Want to hear all our tall tales.
Speaker 4 (42:07):
So I'm looking forward to getting back to Victoria and yeah,
it's it's gonna be good fun.
Speaker 2 (42:12):
Thanks for mentioning that, Michael.
Speaker 5 (42:13):
I appreciate that. That shows you how much sway Clayton and
Ogle we have in the game when you when you
cite those courses, I mean, for people know Dolphin Australia,
that's uh, Marion and Seminole and Augusta National and psych Melbourne.
Speaker 1 (42:29):
Melbourne is like taking the best of Philadelphia, the best
of Chicago, the best of San Francisco, and the best
of New York and putting them all in like you know,
within driving distance, like within a very short amount. It's
an embarrassment of ridge. They have so many they can
rotate for the next few years and you'd never have
to play the same one over and over again. Victoria.
(42:50):
I got the chance to stay at Victoria Golf. We
we stayed in those little those rooms above the club out.
I mean, it's such an incredible golf course. And the
way that those fairways cut into those greens and there's
you know, and then on into those bunkers.
Speaker 2 (43:04):
It's like it's it's so pure.
Speaker 1 (43:08):
It is so pure well and.
Speaker 5 (43:09):
Just as quick quick as I hear. But it relates
to our theme when when Tiger played as the playing
captain in that i think twenty nineteen President's Cup, the
shots that he played there were so inventive and so
much more interesting than you know, the smash mouth golf
that we're customers saying. You know, i'd say at Hartford,
(43:30):
I'm not picking a Hartford, but that's what they do there.
It's a long, you know, it's a short, soft course,
but it was just interesting, and you know, maybe it's
a function of my age and the kind of golf
I grew up watching that. You know, I'm so drawn
to that kind of golf. But I don't know anybody
couldn't say that that was that's not better golf, and
that's that's the joy of the old course. It really
should be the joy of Augusta National only, especially when
(43:52):
it's dry at all, is to see guys pay fiddly
finesse difficult shots out of difficult lies in the ball move.
So anyway, I don't have a great grade trip, but
I think on the point that golf gets more interesting
when the ball is not so hot. And you know,
I just want to wrap up one quick thought here
(44:13):
because I feel like maybe i've been too harsh harsh
on the governing bodies, and I really do agree with
that first thing you said, you did have to do something,
and this is doing something, and I do think it's
a good thing that they're doing it, and they are
giving a lot a lot of the time, but it's
a major but it's not going to do anything for
the real issue that I think facing golf, which is
are these great courses from yesteryear are going to become relics?
(44:36):
That's really the honest to god issue, And I think
they have not really been willing to say that out loud.
Speaker 1 (44:42):
And I just want I want to clear up one
little factoid. Tom Brady played in ten Super Bowls, one
seven of them. We celebrate his greatness. Steph Curry is,
you know, revolutionizing the game of basketball, and we celebrate
Steph Curry's greatness. Lebron James, Wilt Chamberlain, you know, scored
one hundred points and they didn't raise the rim like
(45:04):
I Just what sort of always kind of half bugs
me about the game of golf is we can never
be satisfied and just simply celebrate greatness without overreacting and
tigerproofing or you know, rolling back the ball like it
just for whatever reason, we can't just simply say that's amazing, congratulations.
Speaker 5 (45:27):
And just a quickholo of that. Matt just proves how genius,
not really the golf governing guys can be. Is they
got they got tigetproofing totally wrong. Exactly you got it right,
was Nick Price. So you want to tigerproof, go to
sixty six hundred.
Speaker 1 (45:40):
Yards less is more. It's the answer to this has
always been shorter is the answer, not necessarily for the
ball but for the courses and the architecture and the
turnpoints and make it, make them be more accurate. And
I'm just I'm bummed. But I love golf. I know
we all love golf. Anybody who's listening right now still
(46:02):
loves golf. And this, to me is a bruise on
the game.
Speaker 5 (46:07):
I don't agree that. I don't think this is any
certa crisis. I think it's more like nothing.
Speaker 1 (46:11):
It's unnecessary, it's unnecessary.
Speaker 2 (46:14):
It's kind of an own goal.
Speaker 4 (46:15):
Well, I'm just gonna wrap up by saying that I
hope I'm still still Michael Clayton.
Speaker 2 (46:19):
By the way, No, don't let him in, leave him
in the waiting room.
Speaker 1 (46:24):
Yeah, why don't we, Alan, Why don't we let Michael go?
Speaker 2 (46:28):
And let's say a load to Michael.
Speaker 1 (46:32):
For another, doctor Bamberger, thank you? Yes, oh my god.
All right, I'm gonna patch Michael Clayton in. He's coming on.
As Bamberger is saying goodbye, We're trading one Michael for another.
We're going from Philly to Melbourne. Quite an exciting thing.
But we're gonna actually stop this podcast down. If you
care to listen to conversations with Michael Clayton that'll be
(46:55):
part two of our rollback conversation, Big Gun.
Speaker 3 (47:00):
I played the wind, made a fortune. When my ship
came in, I ran the table, never thought I could
fall down. The winter time hit me like a cannon
in the ball, and now I can't shape this losing streak.
Every road I take is a dead end street. I
(47:25):
got thoughts in my head, can't get them out, trying
not to think what I'm thinking about. I got the
thoughts in my head. I can't get them out, trying
not to think what I'm thinking about.
Popular Podcasts
Dateline NBC
Current and classic episodes, featuring compelling true-crime mysteries, powerful documentaries and in-depth investigations.
The Nikki Glaser Podcast
Every week comedian and infamous roaster Nikki Glaser provides a fun, fast-paced, and brutally honest look into current pop-culture and her own personal life.
Stuff You Should Know
If you've ever wanted to know about champagne, satanism, the Stonewall Uprising, chaos theory, LSD, El Nino, true crime and Rosa Parks, then look no further. Josh and Chuck have you covered.