December 7, 2023 • 49 mins
In part 2 of this spirited rollback debate, Matt Ginella and Alan Shipnuck are joined by world renowned golf course architect Mike Clayton to continue their discussion on the recent decision to modify the golf ball.
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Speaker 1 (00:03):
What's the point of a golf course at that level?
It's a bull's going three hundred and seventy five yards.
There is there is no point to it. There's no
point to golf if every every powfowards are driving a
wage and you can't keep extending tease. You can't. So
you know this is a this is the right decision.
Speaker 2 (00:23):
I got daouncing my head can't get him and not
the thing what I'm thinking about, not counting bouncing my head.
Speaker 3 (00:33):
Can't get him out, not the thing what I'm thinking about.
Speaker 4 (00:46):
Hello, this is Alan Schipnook back for another Fire Drill podcast.
We started talking roll back, Matt Janella, Michael Bamberger and myself.
We ended that because Michael Clayton called in from Melbourne.
You know Michael Clayton as the core architect of barn
Google Dunes and Neo Classic down in Tasmania, long time
(01:08):
tour player in Australia and in Europe, a great thinker
about the game. And without further ado, let's go to cleats.
Who's coming in hot.
Speaker 1 (01:18):
Well, I've been on about it for twenty years, which
is about as long as everyone else has since the
pro v when it there's a whole bunch of issues
it for the best players. It fundamentally changed the way
golf courses play because the ball goes so far. So
if you'd said that to Alison McKenzie one hundred years
ago that in one hundred years time, the vast majority
(01:42):
of power fours were going to be only driving eight
irons and the other six holes were six h seven,
I had two five irons. Now, if you'd said to
the great minds of golf of one hundred years ago
that this is what the game is going to toscend into,
is a succession of massive drives and short irons, that
it would be horrified at that because that wasn't the
way they thought the test of golf. That wasn't what
(02:04):
they saw the questions of golf course asking that they
all assumed and thought. The golf course would ask occasionally
that the part four was a test of a driving
a wood, lots of long lines, chilling has to win foot,
you know, it was about drives and long lines, and
(02:27):
that has largely completely gone from the professional game. Mike
One asked Rory three the Scottish Open, when was the
last time you hit more than a six hundred a
part four I don't remember. You know, it's clearly a
ludicrous situation when when a golf course Arctic and a
golf course can't ask the best players in the world
(02:47):
is at more than a six hunder or part forever
and it really happens.
Speaker 5 (02:52):
So the question now is.
Speaker 4 (02:55):
The USG and the RNA have decided to take a stand.
Speaker 5 (02:59):
But did they go far enough?
Speaker 4 (03:01):
I mean, is is this rollback and have a material
difference on how the game is played?
Speaker 5 (03:07):
Or is it more symbolic than anything else?
Speaker 1 (03:10):
If they went back to the distance Jack and Greg
hit the ball in the mid eighties, not Jack and
Jack in the seventies, Greg Norman when Norman was a
massive hit eighty but he probably wasn't at top of
the driving distance on the PGA two is probably was,
but he was in the top three. He was driving
it somewhere around the mid two seven to eighty. Say
that would be that would for me would be a
(03:31):
reasonable You know, was anyone saying golf was broken in
the eighties when when the ball was going as far
as it was and short courses of length and since then?
But you know, in twenty twenty eight, when they're rolling
the ball back and the balls and it's going to
be going further in twenty twenty eight than it is
in twenty twenty three because there are just more young
kids coming out with the ball further. So if what
(03:54):
are they rolling it back, you know, ten percent? Five percent?
Maybe they were saying, yeah, so not going to make
that much difference. I don't think, you know, it's what's
five percent, So it's fifteen or twenty yards, it'll help
and it'll help with you know, all this last week
is routine eight iron. We had we become a bit
(04:16):
of a joke by the end of the week because
we had we had the exact one sixty meet number
five times during the week exactly on one one hundred
and seventy five yards. That's an eight iron.
Speaker 4 (04:26):
The rollback has not gone far enough. So one thing
that Matt and Mike Lane were kicking around was why
not a tournament ball just for the major championships to
protect these old golf courses. Would you would you support that?
Speaker 1 (04:38):
No? Because what about Australia? Does anyone care about Royal Melbourne?
I mean, the problem with this debate is it's entirely
American centric. Now that affects America. I mean, you know,
there are two points. We went through a roll back,
an effective roll back. The opening of nineteen seventy four
went to the big ball, then the tour in Australia.
(05:00):
I think in nine seventy eight, I think the seventy
seven Open was a small ball tim and seventy eight
was a big ball to him. It was the first
one I played in Europe about the same time, so
you know, and no one in America cared that we
all lost twenty five guards and it was a much
bigger change. The size of the ball changed, every shot change,
(05:20):
chips changed, bunker shot change, putch changed, It was way
more difficult to play in the wind, you know, I mean,
everything changed for us, and no one in America gave
a damn that we all had to change. And of
course the unintended consequence of that was the great generation
of foreign players that you know, I argue with that
never would have happened. Ballisteros, Norman, Price, Langer fell, all
(05:41):
those guys lyle if they'd been switching, which was happening
in Australia, you know, David Graham would come back and
he'd want to play the big ball because he was
playing in America he hated switching balls, and everyone hated
switching balls back and forward. So it was a great
thing that had happened. And the unintended consequence was that
(06:02):
generation of players all of a sudden didn't have to
change balls and you had to hit the ball better
because it was more difficult used to be called. So
now that's what I was saying, that it was off
the point. So no, I wouldn't just in doorse of
the major championships because what about courses in Britain and
Australia for tournaments here, So I.
Speaker 4 (06:19):
Guess it'd be more like a tournament, a tournament ball
that any tournament could invoke that rule.
Speaker 1 (06:27):
Yeah, well, so of course the Australian would adopt it,
and probably the Japanese Open. But then you've got this
mess of players switching balls again, which is which is
what we're is where we were aut last time, and
players hate switching balls. Are you either change or you don't.
But I think it's going to be a worldwide thing,
you know, I always you know, I always thought bicycle
(06:51):
in the game was better because we had a bifircated
game and it was just fine, right, you know, of
course this is a compromise, and a compromise, no one's
ever happy as a pissed off because they're losing distance,
even though you know, again it's an American center of debate.
The evidence of our rollback, which was smaller a big ball,
was that no one cared when they said that's a
(07:14):
good idea, and they changed and everyone changed, and you know,
Peter Thompson objected because his view was, why are we
blindly following America, which was you know, not long after
the Vietnam War, which where we blindly followed America into
the Vietnam Wars. That wasn't a very good idea either,
but you know, that was a reasonable point of view.
(07:36):
Why are we just blindly following America? Because because you know,
there was there were two reasons for the well, the
small ball was better in the wind, and it was
the easier to use in the wind. And there's a
much more wind in Australia and Britain there is in America.
But my understanding is the Americans began to use the
(07:57):
big ball because it sat up better on the lush
off their ways, you know, way back when they changed
when they made the ball bigger. I don't know when
they did it, the twenties or thirties. Whenever they did
it was because the small balls sat down, and you
know the weather lash of Fellers in America, the small
ball sat down more so they just made the big
the ball bigger than make it easy to hit. I
think that's what happened. Amazing.
Speaker 4 (08:20):
It is a funny, funny chapter that modern golf fans
have forgot about completely, that we've already gone through this
and as a sport.
Speaker 1 (08:27):
But well, well that's kind of my big beefy is
that you know, you get on Twitter and Americans are
going nut's about this. Well, we all went through this.
This wasn't that big a deal. But it's you know,
it's maybe a bad analogy, but when we had a
gun massacre in nineteen ninety six and thirty five people
(08:47):
were killed in Port Arthur, the prime minister, the conservative
prime minister, said that's bad. We're going to buy back
guns and we're going to restrict people's ability to use
and buy guns. They won said that's a good idea.
You and Sandy Hook and if that didn't stop, you know,
so Americans react much differently in Australian than probably Europeans.
Speaker 5 (09:07):
And geopolitics has entered the chat.
Speaker 6 (09:10):
But hold on, let me, let me, let me just
jump in here for a second, because, first of all,
Jim Jeffries and his just having you talk about the
guns and stuff that.
Speaker 1 (09:21):
Jim Jeffries comedic, brilliant.
Speaker 6 (09:23):
Yeah, is one of the things that I actually watch
to give myself like therapy over what's happening with guns
in America. It's like, I just listen to that and
it gives me at least a little I'm able to
laugh about a really sad and horrific situation.
Speaker 1 (09:39):
Yeah, that's an amendment.
Speaker 6 (09:41):
Yeah, I mean, I can't even you can't even do
him justice. Watch Jim Jeffries on guns. If you haven't
seen it, I've watched it forty four hundred and seventy
two times. It's brilliant. The Michael I'm listening, I have
nothing but respect and admiration for you, your place in
the game architecture, your opinions. So I've been listening, and
(10:02):
I and I and I read what you what you write,
and I and I and I hear what you're saying.
You're caddying for these young players. But you know, for
me and and you, we said, yes, I'm American centric
because I'm in America, and I've been a part of
the game since, you know, covering the game since y
five and and have watched the game struggle, ebb and flow, shrink, grow,
(10:29):
shrink again. Here we are at this height of this
boom in America with golf. Everybody's coming to the game,
and we're coming at the game. The game has evolved, right.
We're just on the phone and did a podcast on
Jay Blasi redoing a part three course at Golden Gate Park.
We know gold Hill Park, and Jeff comes and plays
Per Simmons at a forty five hundred yard par sixty five.
(10:52):
And that place is booming and it's great and people
can roll back there or not roll back. And we
have this, you know, all those oh the game initiatives
and all those youth initiatives, and all this momentum and
growth for the amateurs, for the people who pay to
play is in a really nice, beautiful, healthy place. Now
(11:14):
some would argue we have too many people out there.
They're the etiquette is bad, and I feel like over
time we train them up, we get more people playing
the game and more people playing the game means more
good people because the game fosters good people. Right, We
learn community, camaraderie. We travel to play the game. By traveling,
(11:35):
you experience different cultures. Different cultures means you get more information.
More information means less racism, less bullshitty. That relates to
the other sort of components of general life and the
way we consume the world around us. Right, all those
things are why we I think we can all agree
the common bond here is that we love the game.
Speaker 1 (11:56):
Right.
Speaker 6 (11:56):
You love the game. I love the game. We come
at it from different perspectives. You're really in the ropes
of the professional game and seeing these guys go driver
eight iron from one hundred and seventy and that hurts you, right,
that hurts you. What what hurts me is the governing
bodies contradictions of like grow the game, grow the game,
(12:17):
grow the app hold on, we grew too much, or
the ball's going too far, and now we're going to
put a full stop on the people who pay to play. Right,
people rocking up, and the general perception being that whether
it's five yards or fifteen yards or zero yards, whatever
it is, it's just this pr nightmare that they've unleashed
(12:37):
right now today on the masses, and the game being
dragged professionally through this horrific situation from a professional standpoint,
and then throwing the ams into a similar pr nightmare.
Just feels like it doesn't make sense. Why just the ball?
Why not shrink the club beds, Why not grow the
(12:58):
fairway length? You know hard? In fact, the fair ways
at the old course were running faster than the green. Like,
there's so many other factors to me to pinpoint the
ball to say that this is the issue, and this
is what we're rolling back, and this is how far
we're rolling back, and we're doing in twenty eight Like
to me, it's like it's so unnecessary, and that's what
(13:19):
hurts me.
Speaker 1 (13:21):
Well, I don't think the ball is clearly not the issue.
The balls the solution. The issue is, you know, the
complete failure of the USCA and the RNA to administer
someone that controlled the size of the driverhead. When the
great Big Bertha came out, they should have said that's it,
you know. So what I think came with the oversized
(13:43):
driver ahead was long as shafts, because if you put
a forty three and a half inch shaft in a
one of the modern drivers that looks completely out of scale,
looks ridiculous. And if you put a one or today's
shafts in an oppersimit head, it also looks ridiculous. So
the scale of the the length of the club, which
is all contributed to the ball going further, and if
also the ball runs for there was no run last
week at this ran open. The ball was not moving
(14:04):
on the fairway more than five yards, so short, and
it's always run for Everetts and Andrews, you know, and
my Canadate one. It's been a lot of it's been
a COVID injuice boom and two that go. But we
went through this before and nothing, no one can play,
nothing happened. The game still the game, you know. I
(14:26):
arguably the game grew in the in the in the
eighties when everyone lost twenty five yards and went and
went to play with the big ball, which was a
bigger change than this to the average player, was a
much bigger change to change the size of the ball,
and the game did just fine. So I don't see
that the game is predicated around how far the ball goes.
The other point I would make is that to agree
(14:47):
with you. The best the best thing the administration could
do was take away all the restrictions and make a
ball that went fifty yards further for women and old
guys and probably half the people who play golf. So
why why is my wife's mother playing golf with the
sign boll Roy McElroy. It's ridiculous. Michael Buller goes further
(15:09):
if you can, well, you know, wouldn't that grow the
game more than I think what was if you you know,
for the you know, for the majority of amateurs who
played the game, if the bull went further, wouldn't the
game be more fun?
Speaker 6 (15:21):
Yeah? And the other thing is, I think we all
agreed that bifurcating is the answer. And unfortunately, you know
that got had declined or denied at the elite level,
and so therefore here we are. You know, I look
at pickleball is one of the fastest growing sports in
the US because it's a mini mini version of tennis.
(15:42):
We see short course, top golf, part three courses, you know,
as I pointed out, look at Bandon Dune's the last
four editions short course, putting course, short and fun course
in the Sheep Ranch and another short course. Because Kaiser's
hyper focused on the retail golfer and making sure people
want to keep coming back. He's creating more short cradle
at Pinehurst and the short course at Whistling Straits and
(16:04):
Forest Dunes and over and over and over again. Short
is happening. The game is evolving. We are making adjustments
because of time, playability, affordability, accessibility, all those things. It
feels like they say, oh, not doing anything, wasn't It
wasn't an option. In fact, as it relates to the
people who pay to play, I think it was an option.
(16:26):
And I was saying earlier when we were talking with Bamberger.
If the USJA is sitting on a polo cash and
the RNA is sitting on a polo cash, why don't
they cut out the middleman, not deal with the manufacturers,
make their own tournament ball, set up a twenty million
dollar perse that's called the US Open, which is a
major championship. Say you got to play with this ball
that we made, and let everything else fall into place.
(16:48):
People who are going to want to play for that
kind of money are going to start playing with that
ball and practicing with it and using it when they
need to, when designated events. Say we're going to the
tournament ball. It feels like then you're addressing the rollback
that needs to happen at the venues that need it
to happen at, with the players who need it to
(17:09):
be that need to be impacted, and you're leaving everybody
else alone.
Speaker 5 (17:14):
I mean that was That's what's crazy.
Speaker 4 (17:15):
That was part of that was the original phrasing of
this rollback was the local model rule. Like they could
have this already, would have been done and dusted, it
would have been announced today, but the tours killed it,
like yes.
Speaker 1 (17:29):
So so it's it's a case of be careful what
you wish for. You know, it's the manufacturer's fault. If
Wally Ulon whoever the bust of Toddles is right now
it said, this is a good idea. We're very happy
to make a ball for the top level of the game.
You know, we don't want to bother it, cut it,
so so we'll support this. Instead they kick and screaming,
go nuts about it, like like every every like every
lobby group, like the cigarette companies are, the alcohol companies are,
(17:51):
the gambling companies. Certainly in Australia, I argue against everything
that I think is going to affect their bottom line.
So the us and I said, okay, we'll do it
for everyone.
Speaker 6 (18:00):
Well they are they in fairness to them, in fairness
to them, and I'm not paid by any equipment company, right,
we have no ties to any equipment company. But in
fairness to let's say titleist. If some restaurant is making
really good chicken and they've worked hard at their recipe
and they're making the best chicken in town, and someone
(18:21):
rocks up and says, sorry, no more selling that type
of chicken. You're going to have to use this type
of chicken. And they go, well, wait a minute. We've
spent years and we've got this chef that specifically makes
this famous recipe, and you're going to take I mean,
they are trying to make a living. And that's why
I'm saying to the USGA and the RNA, then get
in the ball business and make your own ball. Don't
(18:44):
be beholden to the manufacturers. If you really want to
govern the game. You kind of missed the boat you lost.
The ship has sailed, and you know twenty years ago
you kind of missed. Now you can take matters in
your own hands because you've made a bunch of money
off of all those guys hitting at that far, this long,
this many times. You've made the money on on on
(19:07):
the tournaments that you hold. Put it into your own
ball and take control of your own situation and pay
for the price. Pay the price that you missed twenty
years ago by not doing what you should have been
done back then.
Speaker 1 (19:19):
So who's going to use that ball? The European too,
the Japanese too, this is African too, these trying to it. Well,
then it's just a complete miss because you know the
players are going to go to they're going to play
the West Test, the Classical or whatever. Though, and then
the week after they got to the USR and they
got to change bulls when they go they're going to
hide doing that.
Speaker 6 (19:39):
In baseball, Michael, one week you play at Finway. In
the next next week you play at Kamiski, or the
next week you go to Petco and you got to
play different length of of of you know, little different
lighting situations, you know, different court. Every golf course creates
their own set of different you know, it's a venue.
It changes all the time.
Speaker 1 (19:57):
Like my mind would be the histor the evidence of
when the game last had that situation when players would
come to Australia go to Britain to live for the
open and switch balls. They hated it. In fact, Jack
was the one I think he said to the RNA
in ninth you know in the early seventies, we need
to go and we all need to be start playing
the same ball. So in seventy four they switched to
(20:18):
the big ball. So you know, players players switching back
and forward is going to be a nightmare, I think.
Speaker 6 (20:25):
But you're still dealing with the small subset who get
paid to play, and not affecting the people who pay
to play, which is really at the base of all
of this. This is a business. This is a game
people choose to participate in in their off time after
they're after they're done with work.
Speaker 1 (20:44):
Yeah that's true, but it goes back to my original point.
When they rolled the ball back in Australia and Britain,
no one gave up becaus the ball went shorter. No,
golves are much better game than you know. I'm not
going to play if my ball goes shorter. I mean,
either move up a tea or you know whatever. But
you know, golf is not about how fare your driver go.
I don't think if the only reason you're playing golf
(21:05):
is because your ball goes, and what's the what's the
average gamer on its five yards ten yards, He's not
even going to notice it really move up a tea
or whatever. But the game, the evidence of the last
time this happened was well, the evidence was the game
was just fine. Well why you do it? Because one,
because the ball goes way too far, not for just
the players on the PJ Tour or the European Tour,
(21:28):
but for the average am. I mean Lucas Michelle who
works for me one of the US metameter a few
years ago. Every hole of Metro is pretty much a
driver and a wedge for him. And it's a long
golf course. The ball goes and there are two other
things that no one ever talks about. Well, some talk
about the problem with the ball has never been hit
further off line. It goes miles sideways. Now with for
(21:52):
good for strong young men who not on the PJ Tour,
but it can s win the club at a decent speed.
But when the club gets inside and the faces open,
there are boundary problems that we as architects are completely unsolvable.
Now the ball goes way further offline than it ever did,
so that's a problem. And the other thing I think
that having catered at the European Tour school and watch
(22:15):
the Australian Tour and watch others struggle to get on
a tour outside of Australia despite being probably the best
young player down here, is you look around the professional
game and there are way too many young kids trying
to make a living when there are way too few jobs.
And the more difficult the game was to play, you
(22:36):
would weed the kids out h aren't good enough before
they get two players pros. There are way too many
kids from make a living out of this game. And
when you know, I keep saying when I played, you know,
back and back in the day. I don't want to
sound like an old grump who just wants to go
back to the way it was. But the great thing
about if the Simmon driver and a blader ball was
(22:57):
it always found the best player in the world of
at the Open Championship. Because if you couldn't hit a
persimmon driver and a blader ball through the wind, you
didn't have a hope in the Open. So you look
at the guys who won that tournament. Once the Americans
started playing, were the guys who won that tournament always
the best, the guy who was playing the best or
the best part in the world. And seventy three was
why scoff in seventy six it was miller Jack was
(23:20):
always there at Trevino seven at the end of the seventies,
you know, so you know, you really had to hit
that ball properly. And since then we've seen the game
get way more fun and way better for the people.
You care about that and the people I care about.
We all care about the average player. The driver's easier
(23:40):
to hit, the hybrid's better, revelation, laft wedges have been
a revelation, the fact that we got away from Ballada
so you could buy an affordable ball that wouldn't cut
and it would spin, but it flew better through the wind.
I mean, so many things that have happened in the
last forty years because of technology that made the game
easier to play. And that's a great that's been a
eight thing for golf and the growth of the game.
(24:03):
But the unintended consequences. There are thousands of young kids
who all think they're good enough to be pros. Now
they're all out there and there aren't enough jobs for them,
and it's a it's not a tragedy like Guards as
a tragedy or is, you know, but it's a tragedy
in a game, and that these kids they're never going
to make a living out and the quicker. You can
(24:26):
weed those kids out of the top level because they're
not good enough to play, but the equipment has given
a sense that they're good enough because the ball goes
a long way, they shoot load scores. If they can't
at a one on like Jack and gregor at the
one on, they can need a hybrid club. There are
thousands of them out there, and if you made the
game marginally more difficult to play for them, it would
(24:48):
stop this chantage of thousands of kids out there trying
to play.
Speaker 4 (24:53):
But even even as it relates to the guys on tour,
it would be a more interesting game where the driver
edge to me is a problem as just a consumer,
it just gets boring well.
Speaker 1 (25:04):
Well, and people are turning off the page. I can't
tell them. It feels that I don't watch anyone. What's boring?
Speaker 6 (25:09):
Yeah, it really, But again, Michael, there the PGA Tour
is in control of their product. This is a product,
you know, the governing bodies just because they're going to
say whatever they're saying, the PGA Tour is still going
to do what it does. The PGA of America is
going to do what it does. Like I still don't
see how or what like there is. You know, the
(25:32):
governing body of the NFL is the NFL. The governing
body of Major League Baseball is Major League Baseball. The
governing body of the PGA Tour is the PGA Tour.
They they're trying to sell tickets, and if they have
identified a problem with what their product is, they need
to make changes based on you know, the the the eyeballs,
how they broadcast the tournament, like the PJ Tour is
(25:53):
a lot of issues. But like hitting the ball to
or or you know, having people rock up and see
someone hit a two hundred and eighty five yard drive
versus a three hundred and fifteen yard drive, I don't
know if that's going to solve their problem.
Speaker 1 (26:07):
They got real rules, but the different Yeah, but the
difference between baseball and football and those other sports is
none of those players are paid as endorses for the
Baseball are using or the football are using. Every golfer
is a paid endorser of an equipment company. The players
have a huge voice on the PJ Tour. The equipment
(26:28):
companies don't want the ball roll back, and the players
are just spooking their message, that's all they're doing. And
players who I know Ogilvy was without throwing him in
the mess, was that, Jeff, we're not paying it to
talk about the ball. Stop talking about the ball. And
he stopped talking about the ball. So the players, their
(26:49):
opinions are owned and bought by the manufacturers. And Rory
and Tiger are the only two guys who are big
enough to come out and say what they what they
want to say, because what's the Bridge not going to
sign a Tiger?
Speaker 6 (27:02):
Well yeah, well because they've gotten rich nothing, but they've
gotten rich enough to be able to have that independence,
you know what I mean.
Speaker 1 (27:09):
But well, the players have it, and and you know,
going back to the chicken analogy, titlists have always made
the best ball, and and they've all and they've developed
the naming golf that they're not going to sell one
less golf ball if the ball goes shorter because one
they've always made their best ball and in the last
(27:30):
seventy years that they've created an amazing brand. So people
aren't going to stop buying titless balls because the titlest
ball goes shorter. But I make a difference step bottom line.
Speaker 6 (27:40):
Well, if it's illegal. If it's illegal, they'll stop buying it.
I mean, you know, in theory, I mean, I could
see their point. They've if you go to the ball
factory and you see what they do and put into
the R and D and how many decades of money
they've spent to b number one, in which you know
they've earned it quite frankly, I mean, and then you know,
and then you blur that, you blur the marketplace, you
(28:00):
and you bring everybody back to a starting point in
which you're you know, yeah, you're going to have a lawsuit.
And again why you know, of course I.
Speaker 4 (28:08):
Would see I would I would argue that that just
this is Tylis to be the most popular maker of
the new ball if people trust them and they've got
the R and D, we'll see.
Speaker 6 (28:16):
But you can see where you can see their argument
saying you know, yeah, you know.
Speaker 1 (28:21):
So so here's a question, Matt. You know, we agree
that this is a compromise, bifurcation would have been better.
So in golf, since Ted Ray was a boy, Sam
sne Jack Nicholas, who was next? I was loved, probably Greg,
John Day, you know Tiger Rory. Now it's Gordon Sergeant
(28:47):
So who flies at what three seventy five? Whatever his
ball spit is? So you know the history of that,
The history tells us the freaking one generation has always
been the Norman the next. So what so is it
okay in twenty years when everyone's in its three hundred
and seventy five yards? I mean, what happens to the game.
What's the point of a golf course at that level?
(29:09):
If the ball's going three outre and seventy five yards,
there is there is no point to it. There is
no point to golf if every every part forwards are
driving a wedge and you can't keep extending teas you can't.
So you know, I think this is a this is
the right decision because the freak always becomes the normal.
And you know people are going to say, well, that's
not going to happen now, Well, no one thought that
(29:30):
people were going to hit the falls filed John Daily
when he came out at Crooked Stick. No one could
believe how far he hit the ball. Ship there are
women who with the ball further than that now, yeah,
there are five women on the LPJ tour. I think
it was statistically longer than Greg Norman. Was it nine
eighty five? You know it was there a problem with
the game, and now father Ball went in nine eighty five.
(29:51):
No one thought it was a problem. You know, there
was a fair It was a fair fight between the
golf course and the playout. It's now a completely unfair
fight because the golf courses, you know, it's early in Australia,
they're completely defenseless, you know. And the worst thing about
playing the old course now is that because I catered
at Royal Stinkport's and the unqualify there. The worst thing
(30:14):
about playing those golf courses you walk back eighty yards
through every team, not every team, but most of them,
because that's the way they've resolved the issue of the
ball going so far.
Speaker 6 (30:24):
I think you need you caddy for too many good players.
I think that you'd walk off on the third hole
if you caddied for me anyway. But I think you
need to caddy for more people like me who really
suck at the game, Matt.
Speaker 1 (30:39):
Every Saturday I play with three guys who are really
bad at golf. So I know, you know, I know
how I watch people play all the time. I mean,
I you know, we walk around golf courses. The funniest thing.
We're walking around a golf course the other day and
there were two women playing. You guys walk ahead. They
just hate you watching him play golf. Parish to what
(31:00):
you know, I see lots of bad players, don't you know.
We deal with them all the time. I know I do.
I have difficult the game is but yeah, you know,
we're talking about two you know, we're talking about two
entirely different games. You know that, you know, which is
why you need two sets. I think you need two
sets of rules. Yeah, but you know, this is the man.
(31:22):
This is on the manufacturers and the PJA too, because
they said we're not going to you know, the game
shouldn't be bifecated. So you said, okay, it's going to
be done for everybody. So you know, but because because
because doing nothing is not an option, and historically Gordon Sergeant,
he's going to be the norm, because that's what's always happened.
(31:43):
And why is it going to be any different now?
You know, there are a bunch of fourteen and fifteen
year old kids in there who are being told if
you want to compete as a player on the PGA too,
you have to win the club at one hundred and
thirty miles an hour. Your balls bed's got to be
one hundred and ninety miles an hour. So what's going
to happen? That's what they're going to do, because that's
what humans do.
Speaker 6 (31:59):
You know what's going to happen. They're all going to
try to swing for one hundred and thirty miles an hour,
and they're going to hurt their backs, and you know,
the will Zala Tauruses of the world, the rollback happens
naturally and organically because no one like can sustain that
type of physical activity at anything beyond your mid to
late twenties. You know, it's going to happen naturally. You're
(32:21):
going to have a younger group of people who come up.
If the game allows for these people to your back
to your other point of so many people trying to
get in and get it, get a piece of the
cash that's floating around in the professional game, because that's
the big carrot. And why all those thousands of people
are trying to achieve that elite level is because there's
money to be made and only and more to your point,
(32:44):
there's only small chunk of people who are actually getting
access to that money. So that's again part of the
professional you know, dilemma. But not many Gordon sergeants are
going to be able to swing one hundred and thirty
mile hour swing speeds or drive at three hundred and
seventy yards for more than like one two, three, four five.
How long is he going to be able to do it?
And the other thing is is that those people that
(33:05):
are swinging that lard are not just going out and
walking away and winning by ten shots.
Speaker 1 (33:10):
Which is the next issue, which this is not about scoring.
This is not about scoring. You can distort the dimensions
of it of any golf course in the world to
make even part win a tournament. Just do it. Seven
didn't say you just have those fairways, I'll win every week.
So but sure some of them get it, but not
all of them will get injured. You know, there's bound
one hundred and twenty five mother Wake. And you know,
(33:32):
the other point about this is do we want to
drive and what we have one? You know, do you
want to drive a Sam Snead out of the game,
who was for three consecutive he is in his sixties
finish in the top five in the PG Championship. Do
we never want to see that ever again? Or Jack
(33:53):
Nichols winning the masses at forty six, or do you
want to I don't think.
Speaker 6 (33:58):
That's actually a great look for professional golf to be
total Well.
Speaker 1 (34:01):
No, I think it's amazing that.
Speaker 6 (34:03):
I think a big, old chubby guy walking off off
the couch and going and winning a major championship.
Speaker 1 (34:08):
Well, yea, but Sam Steve was arguably the greatest athter
who ever played the game. The guy was a great
enough player, and his sixties definished the top five in
a major championship three years in a row. Well, I
think it was ninth one year, and then third and
fifth and whatever he was. It was a fricking amazing achievement.
You know, do we want to kill that? But you
know we've killed the Corey Paven and Calvin Pete out
(34:32):
of the game. Those you know. You know, if someone
counted the ball at crazy distance, well I consider a
crazy distance. They can't play anymore. I mean, why do
you want to drive those players out of the game.
How much better was the game for the variety it had.
Now it's just all about it. You know, if you
can't hit fair enough, you can't play. Corey Pavin couldn't
itIt far enough, but he could play because you know,
(34:52):
last I looked, there were thirteen other clubs in the
bag and he was really good with him. If you
can't drive the ball X distance, you can't compete. It's
a horrendous look for the game.
Speaker 6 (35:03):
In a way, we're kind of agreeing, you know, we
keep landing on an agreement that you know, a bifurcation
would have been the best scenario. Manufacturers, I see their point.
It's a business they're making money.
Speaker 1 (35:17):
Way with then I just don't see that point because
because I actually don't see that point, because because if
some rocket science technolo I just can't went to the
boss of titles tomorrow and said I've figured out how
to make a ball that goes four hundred yards it's legal,
they would switch their machines tomorrow to make that ball.
I don't give a damn about the consequences on golf courses,
(35:39):
on the speed of play, on the boundary problems who
would affect They couldn't care less, and it's not their
job to care care it's not their job to care.
But it's the administrator's job to care about how golf
courses play, how the ball goes offline, you know the
consequences of the distance. It's it's their job to care.
(35:59):
And you know, they've decided that four hundred yards is
not the line on the standards three hundred and thirty
or three hundred and forty, So so what point is
it too far?
Speaker 6 (36:09):
But again, let's go back to that point about how
in other sports people don't get bit paid to play
that specific bat or play that specific ball, because essentially
Major League Baseball has a ball that everybody plays and
a bat and that has to conform. There's you know,
I think there are different versions of a wooden bat
(36:30):
or companies that make wooden bats that players can choose from,
So why not Why don't then the governing bodies would
you be a fan of if today's announcement was the
USG and the RNA we're going to go into development
with in in their own ball and maybe even like
it could even expand beyond that, essentially to say this
(36:53):
is these are our rules and regulations to play in
our tournament. We're putting up twenty million, and let the
chips Forllward. They may.
Speaker 1 (37:01):
Aunt Tata. That's kind of say get out of that business.
Why are you in that business?
Speaker 6 (37:07):
They can't say that anyway. They're saying that anyway.
Speaker 1 (37:10):
No, well, I think the manufacturers, like the ball I
don't see what the wash of the and I in
the USA and in the business of bull Man. If
they're in the business of running torments, they're not in
the business of manufacturing golf polls.
Speaker 6 (37:19):
But you eliminate that whole other thing that we're talking about,
which is the dilemma, which is the manufacturers are paying
players to play, and therefore the players are going to
reject the bifurcation. So in order let's again stay let's
I feel like we should stay focused on the subset
of the game that it truly impacts, which is such
a small percentage, and let's stay hyper focused on that
(37:41):
and continue to make adjustments that impact that group. But
be the minute you start making adjustments that impact the
people who pay to play, in which the game is
already hard, it's for them. No matter what we do.
It makes no sense in the minute it goes to
the masses, it makes no sense to me.
Speaker 1 (37:58):
Well, two points, that would be the gun. One of
the game's never been easier.
Speaker 6 (38:02):
To play, but it's still hard.
Speaker 1 (38:05):
It's still hard, and it's hard because it's hard because
it's a game of it's hard because it's a game
of technique, and it's hard to master the technique. And
the average player, the average player plays at a level
they play because of their technique. You know, if you're
(38:25):
a twenty handicap player, it's because you've got a twenty
handicap swing playing and a twenty handicap grip and a
twenty handicap swing twenty seven fifteen for whatever level it is,
you play at that level because it's a game of technique.
So it's you know, so I've forgot that, I've lost
my point.
Speaker 5 (38:42):
Yeah.
Speaker 1 (38:44):
My other point would be people make the analogy of
you know, running tracks and baseball tracks and cricket fields.
They're not pieces of architecture. Golf course is unique. A
golf course is unique in sports is it's a piece
of architecture designed and intended to test a wide variety
of skills and to make holes that ask different questions.
(39:05):
And until this generation, if you built, if an architect
built a hole that was a four hundred and seventy
yards Part four, he could reasonably expect a hole to
test driving a long line or driving a mid iron,
and he built the green that was appropriate for the
shot that was being played to it. Not always, but generally,
you know, there were great holes with greens that are
(39:26):
wildly the road hole Andrews is not is not an
appropriate green for a long line approach. It's the best
hole in the world, and it's an exception that proves
the rule. But you know, golf courses asked those questions.
They don't at the top level, they don't ask those
questions anymore. In fact, there are a whole bunch of
(39:47):
holes that were designed with greens that were built to
receive mid the long line so now now played with wedges.
Speaker 6 (39:55):
So there they weren't designed to roll at eleven on
the stemp or twelve on the stemp either. They weren't.
There's that, like, you know, there's a lot of other you.
Speaker 1 (40:02):
Know, well, well that's that's awesome, but that's also true,
and that comes back. But you know, fundamentally, there are
a whole bunch of greens who were built for long
lines that are now players in short lines too. So
the game's out of scale. It's and we're talking about
at the top level. It's not just PJ Tour plays.
It's there's a whole you know, there's there are thousands
(40:22):
of people, thousands of great amateurs who they all hit
the ball forever, and golf courses don't play the way
they used to play, the way that they were intended
to play, the way the great minds of you know,
Bobby Jones, and again you know he's going back to
the past, the way Jones and mackenzie and the great
minds thought, you know, George Thomas and all the great
architects that the tests they were making, the way the
(40:44):
game they should the way they saw the game playing,
and the way it should be played. You know, that's
completely gone and lost. And you know, is Wally youle
On a better mind than Alistair McKenzie or Bobby Jones,
well or whoever's the boss that time. All they care
about is their bottom line and that perception of how
this will hurt their business. Now, I didn't think of
(41:04):
them like a damn but a difference said business, because
they've always made the best golf ball, and they've developed
an amazing brand payple of a great loyalty to it.
They're always gonna buy Tatness bul whether it goes two
hundred and fifty turing eighty three hundred and thirty yards,
They're still gonna buy their golf ball.
Speaker 4 (41:20):
I gotta jump in here. I need to catch a plane.
I'm coming to see you, Michael. We've been podcasting for
over three hours straight here.
Speaker 1 (41:28):
Uh, they'll fed up with that.
Speaker 4 (41:30):
I'm not fed up. I'm just I'm just out of time.
I got to start getting to the airport, but but
very quickly. Let's just tee it up. So Michael, I
am coming your way. I'm heading to San Francsco Airport
here to fly to Melbourne to the sand Bell Invitational.
I can't wait. I've been covering the tournament the last
two years from afar. Now I'll be in the dirt,
(41:51):
at least in the sand. Tell the listeners why this
tournament is special and what it means to you personally.
Speaker 1 (42:00):
Well, we started off in Covid. Quickly the kids said
no where to play, and Jeff Ogley and I started
to think all the game, which was it was an
eighteen and thirty six old just chance to play, and
they started playing competitive golf and it was fantastic and
you know they embraced it. Now you know they play
most Mondays and sam Belt Tormentsort evolved out of that
(42:24):
where we went to originally kens and Heath Peninsula, kingswood
yar in Ryal, Melbourne. So can we have a day
at each of your courses to run a four round tournament.
We want about thirty five or thirty six pros and
the same number of kids, so men and women, boys
and girls. We've got an eleven year old playing this year,
(42:46):
a twelve year old, a bunch of teenagers like thirteen fourty.
Emilia Harris who won last year as fifteen. She's like
a veteran. I'm just looking at I'm just looking at
the PGA Tour score. Robin Troy is now leading at
twenty seven hunder par. She's leaving the LPGA Tour school
(43:08):
that she looks like she's going to win through fifteen
holes to come and play. Nicholas Colsart is playing Cam Davis,
who is amazing, is a defending champion. Jeff og he's
obviously playing. Elvis is playing sother a bunch of great
young and old pros, young amateurs. It's free to get in.
We play a different course every day. Can't tell you
(43:29):
how many really good young Australian plays send me emails
pleading to play, and I'm sorry, guys, we've only got
thirty six bots and I wish I could fit you
in and send me an email earlier and yeah. So
it's a really cool tournament. It's free to get in.
And you can see Cameron Davis playing with a thirteen
year old girl. I mean last year he played the
(43:50):
last two rounds with Mamachah Kabori, who's Kazuma Kabori's brother sister.
He had a driver on the seventeenth hole, a peninsula
king do. I fought and hold it and beat her
by one shot, so she's a driver off the deck.
It was amazing shots. So the women play off different
teas and they play a different par so the men play.
(44:14):
So we cut the men's part down at seventy on
not exactly but essentially seventy on Royal Melbourne and the area.
Finchill out the women's past seventy two and the winning
score is relative to power if that makes sense, does it?
So it's a really cool event and this is the
(44:36):
third year and it's gonna be great fun to watch
out evolves.
Speaker 6 (44:40):
It's really really quick. Hugh Foley, our friend from Ireland,
a dear friend, is playing, which is amazing and has
quite the resume. Second in the US Midam two years
ago and on the north and South of Ireland. Not
done since. I think Darren Clerk did it way back when.
So you got Hugh Foley. But Jeff flew out from
(45:01):
Melbourne to play in the Wishbone Brawl and on the
driving range again not to not to talk for Jeff,
and we're going to run a clip of his about
the sand belt. But I love the idea that part
of the reason, and I'm sure you can, you can,
you know, emphasize this. But what Jeff loves about this
is that as a kid he would have loved an
(45:21):
opportunity to play with the pros, to pick their brains,
to see them, you know, shoulder to shoulder, and watch
how they carry themselves, how they practice, how they get ready,
how how they perform under pressure, And that to me
is also a really cool subset of this is that
(45:41):
that's what you guys are providing, is this sort of
this opportunity to sort of compete together.
Speaker 1 (45:47):
Yeah, yeah, well well that's not so much the subset,
and it's the whole point of it. You know, it's
the mentoring thing. It's like, you know, the sounds for
you Amelia Harris when she was thirtained, so sit down
with Petafala who was sixty years old, talk about, you know,
how did you play that shot? How do I prepare it?
Because Chok is the most rabid preparer for pro golf
(46:08):
ever and Sevy one said, the only man with a
better shortcame on the European than me is Peter Fowler,
so you know, and you know she was with him
for an hour and a half and he took it
down the chipping grind and he showed her how to
play different shots and so that's the whole point of
the whole thing. And you know, it was the mentoring thing,
and it's a really cool to The clubs are great
because it's not too much of an inconvenience for the
(46:28):
members because we only spend one day at them. There
are no grandstands, TV towers that you know, we don't
have to pay them any money for the course. Yeah,
it's me. It's an amazing thing. And Lloyd Cole's in
Melbourne on Wednesday night, so Alan, you're coming to see
Lloyd Cole on Wednesday night.
Speaker 5 (46:45):
I think I look forward to it, So.
Speaker 1 (46:47):
That'll be fun. So Lloyd's of course a complete golf
nutt and Australians love Lloyd Cole. So he's playing in
town on Wednesday night. So we'll see how many of
the players want to come. Most of them have probably
never heard of Lloyd Cole. But anyway, now and all
I have.
Speaker 6 (47:02):
Michael, thank you for your time and and thank you
for your perspective and all that you do for the game.
And obviously a big like I said, big fan of
your your opinion and your architecture. And I've been doing
some things on what you guys have been doing. And
you've got a great team and uh, and so keep
up all the great work. And I'm I'm uh. You
know at some point you know that at the core
(47:26):
of all this is is we love the game. And
I hope someday to come down to the Sand Belt
and uh and to walk some fairways.
Speaker 1 (47:33):
Yeah, to come and play it and say it and
look forward to see you Alan.
Speaker 5 (47:36):
All right, thank you, Michael, Thank you, Michael.
Speaker 4 (47:39):
Okay, well, Michael Clayton and I will continue this conversation
in person in Melbourne while I'm covering the sand Belt Invitational.
You can follow all that on Firepit Collective dot com.
There'll be daily stories, probably some more podcasts. We'll be
doing some fun stuff on social along the way, on
my handles and of course on the Firepit handles.
Speaker 5 (47:58):
So thanks to listening.
Speaker 4 (48:01):
For those of you who went from Bamberger to Clayton,
you're the lunatic fringe of golf fans and we love
you and we thank you for your support. Matt, always
a pleasure. I wish I had as much passion for
anything in my life as you do for the anti
rollback arguments. It's impressive.
Speaker 1 (48:17):
Uh and uh.
Speaker 4 (48:19):
But anyway, good stuff. Thanks for having us safe. Yeah,
thank you, thank you, and that's the end of this podcast. Goodbye.
Speaker 3 (48:29):
I'll bet big and I played the wind made a
fortune when my ship game and I ran the table
and never thought I could fall down.
Speaker 2 (48:40):
The win hit me lack of canon the ball and
now I can't shake this losing stream. Every road I
take is a dead end street.
Speaker 6 (48:55):
I got dat in my head.
Speaker 2 (48:57):
Can you jo not to think what I'm thinking about now?
Kind of thoughts in my head.
Speaker 3 (49:05):
I can't get them out. Trying not to think what
I'm thinking about
What's the point of a golf course at that level?
It's a bull's going three hundred and seventy five yards.
There is there is no point to it. There's no
point to golf if every every powfowards are driving a
wage and you can't keep extending tease. You can't. So
you know this is a this is the right decision.
Speaker 2 (00:23):
I got daouncing my head can't get him and not
the thing what I'm thinking about, not counting bouncing my head.
Speaker 3 (00:33):
Can't get him out, not the thing what I'm thinking about.
Speaker 4 (00:46):
Hello, this is Alan Schipnook back for another Fire Drill podcast.
We started talking roll back, Matt Janella, Michael Bamberger and myself.
We ended that because Michael Clayton called in from Melbourne.
You know Michael Clayton as the core architect of barn
Google Dunes and Neo Classic down in Tasmania, long time
(01:08):
tour player in Australia and in Europe, a great thinker
about the game. And without further ado, let's go to cleats.
Who's coming in hot.
Speaker 1 (01:18):
Well, I've been on about it for twenty years, which
is about as long as everyone else has since the
pro v when it there's a whole bunch of issues
it for the best players. It fundamentally changed the way
golf courses play because the ball goes so far. So
if you'd said that to Alison McKenzie one hundred years
ago that in one hundred years time, the vast majority
(01:42):
of power fours were going to be only driving eight
irons and the other six holes were six h seven,
I had two five irons. Now, if you'd said to
the great minds of golf of one hundred years ago
that this is what the game is going to toscend into,
is a succession of massive drives and short irons, that
it would be horrified at that because that wasn't the
way they thought the test of golf. That wasn't what
(02:04):
they saw the questions of golf course asking that they
all assumed and thought. The golf course would ask occasionally
that the part four was a test of a driving
a wood, lots of long lines, chilling has to win foot,
you know, it was about drives and long lines, and
(02:27):
that has largely completely gone from the professional game. Mike
One asked Rory three the Scottish Open, when was the
last time you hit more than a six hundred a
part four I don't remember. You know, it's clearly a
ludicrous situation when when a golf course Arctic and a
golf course can't ask the best players in the world
(02:47):
is at more than a six hunder or part forever
and it really happens.
Speaker 5 (02:52):
So the question now is.
Speaker 4 (02:55):
The USG and the RNA have decided to take a stand.
Speaker 5 (02:59):
But did they go far enough?
Speaker 4 (03:01):
I mean, is is this rollback and have a material
difference on how the game is played?
Speaker 5 (03:07):
Or is it more symbolic than anything else?
Speaker 1 (03:10):
If they went back to the distance Jack and Greg
hit the ball in the mid eighties, not Jack and
Jack in the seventies, Greg Norman when Norman was a
massive hit eighty but he probably wasn't at top of
the driving distance on the PGA two is probably was,
but he was in the top three. He was driving
it somewhere around the mid two seven to eighty. Say
that would be that would for me would be a
(03:31):
reasonable You know, was anyone saying golf was broken in
the eighties when when the ball was going as far
as it was and short courses of length and since then?
But you know, in twenty twenty eight, when they're rolling
the ball back and the balls and it's going to
be going further in twenty twenty eight than it is
in twenty twenty three because there are just more young
kids coming out with the ball further. So if what
(03:54):
are they rolling it back, you know, ten percent? Five percent?
Maybe they were saying, yeah, so not going to make
that much difference. I don't think, you know, it's what's
five percent, So it's fifteen or twenty yards, it'll help
and it'll help with you know, all this last week
is routine eight iron. We had we become a bit
(04:16):
of a joke by the end of the week because
we had we had the exact one sixty meet number
five times during the week exactly on one one hundred
and seventy five yards. That's an eight iron.
Speaker 4 (04:26):
The rollback has not gone far enough. So one thing
that Matt and Mike Lane were kicking around was why
not a tournament ball just for the major championships to
protect these old golf courses. Would you would you support that?
Speaker 1 (04:38):
No? Because what about Australia? Does anyone care about Royal Melbourne?
I mean, the problem with this debate is it's entirely
American centric. Now that affects America. I mean, you know,
there are two points. We went through a roll back,
an effective roll back. The opening of nineteen seventy four
went to the big ball, then the tour in Australia.
(05:00):
I think in nine seventy eight, I think the seventy
seven Open was a small ball tim and seventy eight
was a big ball to him. It was the first
one I played in Europe about the same time, so
you know, and no one in America cared that we
all lost twenty five guards and it was a much
bigger change. The size of the ball changed, every shot change,
(05:20):
chips changed, bunker shot change, putch changed, It was way
more difficult to play in the wind, you know, I mean,
everything changed for us, and no one in America gave
a damn that we all had to change. And of
course the unintended consequence of that was the great generation
of foreign players that you know, I argue with that
never would have happened. Ballisteros, Norman, Price, Langer fell, all
(05:41):
those guys lyle if they'd been switching, which was happening
in Australia, you know, David Graham would come back and
he'd want to play the big ball because he was
playing in America he hated switching balls, and everyone hated
switching balls back and forward. So it was a great
thing that had happened. And the unintended consequence was that
(06:02):
generation of players all of a sudden didn't have to
change balls and you had to hit the ball better
because it was more difficult used to be called. So
now that's what I was saying, that it was off
the point. So no, I wouldn't just in doorse of
the major championships because what about courses in Britain and
Australia for tournaments here, So I.
Speaker 4 (06:19):
Guess it'd be more like a tournament, a tournament ball
that any tournament could invoke that rule.
Speaker 1 (06:27):
Yeah, well, so of course the Australian would adopt it,
and probably the Japanese Open. But then you've got this
mess of players switching balls again, which is which is
what we're is where we were aut last time, and
players hate switching balls. Are you either change or you don't.
But I think it's going to be a worldwide thing,
you know, I always you know, I always thought bicycle
(06:51):
in the game was better because we had a bifircated
game and it was just fine, right, you know, of
course this is a compromise, and a compromise, no one's
ever happy as a pissed off because they're losing distance,
even though you know, again it's an American center of debate.
The evidence of our rollback, which was smaller a big ball,
was that no one cared when they said that's a
(07:14):
good idea, and they changed and everyone changed, and you know,
Peter Thompson objected because his view was, why are we
blindly following America, which was you know, not long after
the Vietnam War, which where we blindly followed America into
the Vietnam Wars. That wasn't a very good idea either,
but you know, that was a reasonable point of view.
(07:36):
Why are we just blindly following America? Because because you know,
there was there were two reasons for the well, the
small ball was better in the wind, and it was
the easier to use in the wind. And there's a
much more wind in Australia and Britain there is in America.
But my understanding is the Americans began to use the
(07:57):
big ball because it sat up better on the lush
off their ways, you know, way back when they changed
when they made the ball bigger. I don't know when
they did it, the twenties or thirties. Whenever they did
it was because the small balls sat down, and you
know the weather lash of Fellers in America, the small
ball sat down more so they just made the big
the ball bigger than make it easy to hit. I
think that's what happened. Amazing.
Speaker 4 (08:20):
It is a funny, funny chapter that modern golf fans
have forgot about completely, that we've already gone through this
and as a sport.
Speaker 1 (08:27):
But well, well that's kind of my big beefy is
that you know, you get on Twitter and Americans are
going nut's about this. Well, we all went through this.
This wasn't that big a deal. But it's you know,
it's maybe a bad analogy, but when we had a
gun massacre in nineteen ninety six and thirty five people
(08:47):
were killed in Port Arthur, the prime minister, the conservative
prime minister, said that's bad. We're going to buy back
guns and we're going to restrict people's ability to use
and buy guns. They won said that's a good idea.
You and Sandy Hook and if that didn't stop, you know,
so Americans react much differently in Australian than probably Europeans.
Speaker 5 (09:07):
And geopolitics has entered the chat.
Speaker 6 (09:10):
But hold on, let me, let me, let me just
jump in here for a second, because, first of all,
Jim Jeffries and his just having you talk about the
guns and stuff that.
Speaker 1 (09:21):
Jim Jeffries comedic, brilliant.
Speaker 6 (09:23):
Yeah, is one of the things that I actually watch
to give myself like therapy over what's happening with guns
in America. It's like, I just listen to that and
it gives me at least a little I'm able to
laugh about a really sad and horrific situation.
Speaker 1 (09:39):
Yeah, that's an amendment.
Speaker 6 (09:41):
Yeah, I mean, I can't even you can't even do
him justice. Watch Jim Jeffries on guns. If you haven't
seen it, I've watched it forty four hundred and seventy
two times. It's brilliant. The Michael I'm listening, I have
nothing but respect and admiration for you, your place in
the game architecture, your opinions. So I've been listening, and
(10:02):
I and I and I read what you what you write,
and I and I and I hear what you're saying.
You're caddying for these young players. But you know, for
me and and you, we said, yes, I'm American centric
because I'm in America, and I've been a part of
the game since, you know, covering the game since y
five and and have watched the game struggle, ebb and flow, shrink, grow,
(10:29):
shrink again. Here we are at this height of this
boom in America with golf. Everybody's coming to the game,
and we're coming at the game. The game has evolved, right.
We're just on the phone and did a podcast on
Jay Blasi redoing a part three course at Golden Gate Park.
We know gold Hill Park, and Jeff comes and plays
Per Simmons at a forty five hundred yard par sixty five.
(10:52):
And that place is booming and it's great and people
can roll back there or not roll back. And we
have this, you know, all those oh the game initiatives
and all those youth initiatives, and all this momentum and
growth for the amateurs, for the people who pay to
play is in a really nice, beautiful, healthy place. Now
(11:14):
some would argue we have too many people out there.
They're the etiquette is bad, and I feel like over
time we train them up, we get more people playing
the game and more people playing the game means more
good people because the game fosters good people. Right, We
learn community, camaraderie. We travel to play the game. By traveling,
(11:35):
you experience different cultures. Different cultures means you get more information.
More information means less racism, less bullshitty. That relates to
the other sort of components of general life and the
way we consume the world around us. Right, all those
things are why we I think we can all agree
the common bond here is that we love the game.
Speaker 1 (11:56):
Right.
Speaker 6 (11:56):
You love the game. I love the game. We come
at it from different perspectives. You're really in the ropes
of the professional game and seeing these guys go driver
eight iron from one hundred and seventy and that hurts you, right,
that hurts you. What what hurts me is the governing
bodies contradictions of like grow the game, grow the game,
(12:17):
grow the app hold on, we grew too much, or
the ball's going too far, and now we're going to
put a full stop on the people who pay to play. Right,
people rocking up, and the general perception being that whether
it's five yards or fifteen yards or zero yards, whatever
it is, it's just this pr nightmare that they've unleashed
(12:37):
right now today on the masses, and the game being
dragged professionally through this horrific situation from a professional standpoint,
and then throwing the ams into a similar pr nightmare.
Just feels like it doesn't make sense. Why just the ball?
Why not shrink the club beds, Why not grow the
(12:58):
fairway length? You know hard? In fact, the fair ways
at the old course were running faster than the green. Like,
there's so many other factors to me to pinpoint the
ball to say that this is the issue, and this
is what we're rolling back, and this is how far
we're rolling back, and we're doing in twenty eight Like
to me, it's like it's so unnecessary, and that's what
(13:19):
hurts me.
Speaker 1 (13:21):
Well, I don't think the ball is clearly not the issue.
The balls the solution. The issue is, you know, the
complete failure of the USCA and the RNA to administer
someone that controlled the size of the driverhead. When the
great Big Bertha came out, they should have said that's it,
you know. So what I think came with the oversized
(13:43):
driver ahead was long as shafts, because if you put
a forty three and a half inch shaft in a
one of the modern drivers that looks completely out of scale,
looks ridiculous. And if you put a one or today's
shafts in an oppersimit head, it also looks ridiculous. So
the scale of the the length of the club, which
is all contributed to the ball going further, and if
also the ball runs for there was no run last
week at this ran open. The ball was not moving
(14:04):
on the fairway more than five yards, so short, and
it's always run for Everetts and Andrews, you know, and
my Canadate one. It's been a lot of it's been
a COVID injuice boom and two that go. But we
went through this before and nothing, no one can play,
nothing happened. The game still the game, you know. I
(14:26):
arguably the game grew in the in the in the
eighties when everyone lost twenty five yards and went and
went to play with the big ball, which was a
bigger change than this to the average player, was a
much bigger change to change the size of the ball,
and the game did just fine. So I don't see
that the game is predicated around how far the ball goes.
The other point I would make is that to agree
(14:47):
with you. The best the best thing the administration could
do was take away all the restrictions and make a
ball that went fifty yards further for women and old
guys and probably half the people who play golf. So
why why is my wife's mother playing golf with the
sign boll Roy McElroy. It's ridiculous. Michael Buller goes further
(15:09):
if you can, well, you know, wouldn't that grow the
game more than I think what was if you you know,
for the you know, for the majority of amateurs who
played the game, if the bull went further, wouldn't the
game be more fun?
Speaker 6 (15:21):
Yeah? And the other thing is, I think we all
agreed that bifurcating is the answer. And unfortunately, you know
that got had declined or denied at the elite level,
and so therefore here we are. You know, I look
at pickleball is one of the fastest growing sports in
the US because it's a mini mini version of tennis.
(15:42):
We see short course, top golf, part three courses, you know,
as I pointed out, look at Bandon Dune's the last
four editions short course, putting course, short and fun course
in the Sheep Ranch and another short course. Because Kaiser's
hyper focused on the retail golfer and making sure people
want to keep coming back. He's creating more short cradle
at Pinehurst and the short course at Whistling Straits and
(16:04):
Forest Dunes and over and over and over again. Short
is happening. The game is evolving. We are making adjustments
because of time, playability, affordability, accessibility, all those things. It
feels like they say, oh, not doing anything, wasn't It
wasn't an option. In fact, as it relates to the
people who pay to play, I think it was an option.
(16:26):
And I was saying earlier when we were talking with Bamberger.
If the USJA is sitting on a polo cash and
the RNA is sitting on a polo cash, why don't
they cut out the middleman, not deal with the manufacturers,
make their own tournament ball, set up a twenty million
dollar perse that's called the US Open, which is a
major championship. Say you got to play with this ball
that we made, and let everything else fall into place.
(16:48):
People who are going to want to play for that
kind of money are going to start playing with that
ball and practicing with it and using it when they
need to, when designated events. Say we're going to the
tournament ball. It feels like then you're addressing the rollback
that needs to happen at the venues that need it
to happen at, with the players who need it to
(17:09):
be that need to be impacted, and you're leaving everybody
else alone.
Speaker 5 (17:14):
I mean that was That's what's crazy.
Speaker 4 (17:15):
That was part of that was the original phrasing of
this rollback was the local model rule. Like they could
have this already, would have been done and dusted, it
would have been announced today, but the tours killed it,
like yes.
Speaker 1 (17:29):
So so it's it's a case of be careful what
you wish for. You know, it's the manufacturer's fault. If
Wally Ulon whoever the bust of Toddles is right now
it said, this is a good idea. We're very happy
to make a ball for the top level of the game.
You know, we don't want to bother it, cut it,
so so we'll support this. Instead they kick and screaming,
go nuts about it, like like every every like every
lobby group, like the cigarette companies are, the alcohol companies are,
(17:51):
the gambling companies. Certainly in Australia, I argue against everything
that I think is going to affect their bottom line.
So the us and I said, okay, we'll do it
for everyone.
Speaker 6 (18:00):
Well they are they in fairness to them, in fairness
to them, and I'm not paid by any equipment company, right,
we have no ties to any equipment company. But in
fairness to let's say titleist. If some restaurant is making
really good chicken and they've worked hard at their recipe
and they're making the best chicken in town, and someone
(18:21):
rocks up and says, sorry, no more selling that type
of chicken. You're going to have to use this type
of chicken. And they go, well, wait a minute. We've
spent years and we've got this chef that specifically makes
this famous recipe, and you're going to take I mean,
they are trying to make a living. And that's why
I'm saying to the USGA and the RNA, then get
in the ball business and make your own ball. Don't
(18:44):
be beholden to the manufacturers. If you really want to
govern the game. You kind of missed the boat you lost.
The ship has sailed, and you know twenty years ago
you kind of missed. Now you can take matters in
your own hands because you've made a bunch of money
off of all those guys hitting at that far, this long,
this many times. You've made the money on on on
(19:07):
the tournaments that you hold. Put it into your own
ball and take control of your own situation and pay
for the price. Pay the price that you missed twenty
years ago by not doing what you should have been
done back then.
Speaker 1 (19:19):
So who's going to use that ball? The European too,
the Japanese too, this is African too, these trying to it. Well,
then it's just a complete miss because you know the
players are going to go to they're going to play
the West Test, the Classical or whatever. Though, and then
the week after they got to the USR and they
got to change bulls when they go they're going to
hide doing that.
Speaker 6 (19:39):
In baseball, Michael, one week you play at Finway. In
the next next week you play at Kamiski, or the
next week you go to Petco and you got to
play different length of of of you know, little different
lighting situations, you know, different court. Every golf course creates
their own set of different you know, it's a venue.
It changes all the time.
Speaker 1 (19:57):
Like my mind would be the histor the evidence of
when the game last had that situation when players would
come to Australia go to Britain to live for the
open and switch balls. They hated it. In fact, Jack
was the one I think he said to the RNA
in ninth you know in the early seventies, we need
to go and we all need to be start playing
the same ball. So in seventy four they switched to
(20:18):
the big ball. So you know, players players switching back
and forward is going to be a nightmare, I think.
Speaker 6 (20:25):
But you're still dealing with the small subset who get
paid to play, and not affecting the people who pay
to play, which is really at the base of all
of this. This is a business. This is a game
people choose to participate in in their off time after
they're after they're done with work.
Speaker 1 (20:44):
Yeah that's true, but it goes back to my original point.
When they rolled the ball back in Australia and Britain,
no one gave up becaus the ball went shorter. No,
golves are much better game than you know. I'm not
going to play if my ball goes shorter. I mean,
either move up a tea or you know whatever. But
you know, golf is not about how fare your driver go.
I don't think if the only reason you're playing golf
(21:05):
is because your ball goes, and what's the what's the
average gamer on its five yards ten yards, He's not
even going to notice it really move up a tea
or whatever. But the game, the evidence of the last
time this happened was well, the evidence was the game
was just fine. Well why you do it? Because one,
because the ball goes way too far, not for just
the players on the PJ Tour or the European Tour,
(21:28):
but for the average am. I mean Lucas Michelle who
works for me one of the US metameter a few
years ago. Every hole of Metro is pretty much a
driver and a wedge for him. And it's a long
golf course. The ball goes and there are two other
things that no one ever talks about. Well, some talk
about the problem with the ball has never been hit
further off line. It goes miles sideways. Now with for
(21:52):
good for strong young men who not on the PJ Tour,
but it can s win the club at a decent speed.
But when the club gets inside and the faces open,
there are boundary problems that we as architects are completely unsolvable.
Now the ball goes way further offline than it ever did,
so that's a problem. And the other thing I think
that having catered at the European Tour school and watch
(22:15):
the Australian Tour and watch others struggle to get on
a tour outside of Australia despite being probably the best
young player down here, is you look around the professional
game and there are way too many young kids trying
to make a living when there are way too few jobs.
And the more difficult the game was to play, you
(22:36):
would weed the kids out h aren't good enough before
they get two players pros. There are way too many
kids from make a living out of this game. And
when you know, I keep saying when I played, you know,
back and back in the day. I don't want to
sound like an old grump who just wants to go
back to the way it was. But the great thing
about if the Simmon driver and a blader ball was
(22:57):
it always found the best player in the world of
at the Open Championship. Because if you couldn't hit a
persimmon driver and a blader ball through the wind, you
didn't have a hope in the Open. So you look
at the guys who won that tournament. Once the Americans
started playing, were the guys who won that tournament always
the best, the guy who was playing the best or
the best part in the world. And seventy three was
why scoff in seventy six it was miller Jack was
(23:20):
always there at Trevino seven at the end of the seventies,
you know, so you know, you really had to hit
that ball properly. And since then we've seen the game
get way more fun and way better for the people.
You care about that and the people I care about.
We all care about the average player. The driver's easier
(23:40):
to hit, the hybrid's better, revelation, laft wedges have been
a revelation, the fact that we got away from Ballada
so you could buy an affordable ball that wouldn't cut
and it would spin, but it flew better through the wind.
I mean, so many things that have happened in the
last forty years because of technology that made the game
easier to play. And that's a great that's been a
eight thing for golf and the growth of the game.
(24:03):
But the unintended consequences. There are thousands of young kids
who all think they're good enough to be pros. Now
they're all out there and there aren't enough jobs for them,
and it's a it's not a tragedy like Guards as
a tragedy or is, you know, but it's a tragedy
in a game, and that these kids they're never going
to make a living out and the quicker. You can
(24:26):
weed those kids out of the top level because they're
not good enough to play, but the equipment has given
a sense that they're good enough because the ball goes
a long way, they shoot load scores. If they can't
at a one on like Jack and gregor at the
one on, they can need a hybrid club. There are
thousands of them out there, and if you made the
game marginally more difficult to play for them, it would
(24:48):
stop this chantage of thousands of kids out there trying
to play.
Speaker 4 (24:53):
But even even as it relates to the guys on tour,
it would be a more interesting game where the driver
edge to me is a problem as just a consumer,
it just gets boring well.
Speaker 1 (25:04):
Well, and people are turning off the page. I can't
tell them. It feels that I don't watch anyone. What's boring?
Speaker 6 (25:09):
Yeah, it really, But again, Michael, there the PGA Tour
is in control of their product. This is a product,
you know, the governing bodies just because they're going to
say whatever they're saying, the PGA Tour is still going
to do what it does. The PGA of America is
going to do what it does. Like I still don't
see how or what like there is. You know, the
(25:32):
governing body of the NFL is the NFL. The governing
body of Major League Baseball is Major League Baseball. The
governing body of the PGA Tour is the PGA Tour.
They they're trying to sell tickets, and if they have
identified a problem with what their product is, they need
to make changes based on you know, the the the eyeballs,
how they broadcast the tournament, like the PJ Tour is
(25:53):
a lot of issues. But like hitting the ball to
or or you know, having people rock up and see
someone hit a two hundred and eighty five yard drive
versus a three hundred and fifteen yard drive, I don't
know if that's going to solve their problem.
Speaker 1 (26:07):
They got real rules, but the different Yeah, but the
difference between baseball and football and those other sports is
none of those players are paid as endorses for the
Baseball are using or the football are using. Every golfer
is a paid endorser of an equipment company. The players
have a huge voice on the PJ Tour. The equipment
(26:28):
companies don't want the ball roll back, and the players
are just spooking their message, that's all they're doing. And
players who I know Ogilvy was without throwing him in
the mess, was that, Jeff, we're not paying it to
talk about the ball. Stop talking about the ball. And
he stopped talking about the ball. So the players, their
(26:49):
opinions are owned and bought by the manufacturers. And Rory
and Tiger are the only two guys who are big
enough to come out and say what they what they
want to say, because what's the Bridge not going to
sign a Tiger?
Speaker 6 (27:02):
Well yeah, well because they've gotten rich nothing, but they've
gotten rich enough to be able to have that independence,
you know what I mean.
Speaker 1 (27:09):
But well, the players have it, and and you know,
going back to the chicken analogy, titlists have always made
the best ball, and and they've all and they've developed
the naming golf that they're not going to sell one
less golf ball if the ball goes shorter because one
they've always made their best ball and in the last
(27:30):
seventy years that they've created an amazing brand. So people
aren't going to stop buying titless balls because the titlest
ball goes shorter. But I make a difference step bottom line.
Speaker 6 (27:40):
Well, if it's illegal. If it's illegal, they'll stop buying it.
I mean, you know, in theory, I mean, I could
see their point. They've if you go to the ball
factory and you see what they do and put into
the R and D and how many decades of money
they've spent to b number one, in which you know
they've earned it quite frankly, I mean, and then you know,
and then you blur that, you blur the marketplace, you
(28:00):
and you bring everybody back to a starting point in
which you're you know, yeah, you're going to have a lawsuit.
And again why you know, of course I.
Speaker 4 (28:08):
Would see I would I would argue that that just
this is Tylis to be the most popular maker of
the new ball if people trust them and they've got
the R and D, we'll see.
Speaker 6 (28:16):
But you can see where you can see their argument
saying you know, yeah, you know.
Speaker 1 (28:21):
So so here's a question, Matt. You know, we agree
that this is a compromise, bifurcation would have been better.
So in golf, since Ted Ray was a boy, Sam
sne Jack Nicholas, who was next? I was loved, probably Greg,
John Day, you know Tiger Rory. Now it's Gordon Sergeant
(28:47):
So who flies at what three seventy five? Whatever his
ball spit is? So you know the history of that,
The history tells us the freaking one generation has always
been the Norman the next. So what so is it
okay in twenty years when everyone's in its three hundred
and seventy five yards? I mean, what happens to the game.
What's the point of a golf course at that level?
(29:09):
If the ball's going three outre and seventy five yards,
there is there is no point to it. There is
no point to golf if every every part forwards are
driving a wedge and you can't keep extending teas you can't.
So you know, I think this is a this is
the right decision because the freak always becomes the normal.
And you know people are going to say, well, that's
not going to happen now, Well, no one thought that
(29:30):
people were going to hit the falls filed John Daily
when he came out at Crooked Stick. No one could
believe how far he hit the ball. Ship there are
women who with the ball further than that now, yeah,
there are five women on the LPJ tour. I think
it was statistically longer than Greg Norman. Was it nine
eighty five? You know it was there a problem with
the game, and now father Ball went in nine eighty five.
(29:51):
No one thought it was a problem. You know, there
was a fair It was a fair fight between the
golf course and the playout. It's now a completely unfair
fight because the golf courses, you know, it's early in Australia,
they're completely defenseless, you know. And the worst thing about
playing the old course now is that because I catered
at Royal Stinkport's and the unqualify there. The worst thing
(30:14):
about playing those golf courses you walk back eighty yards
through every team, not every team, but most of them,
because that's the way they've resolved the issue of the
ball going so far.
Speaker 6 (30:24):
I think you need you caddy for too many good players.
I think that you'd walk off on the third hole
if you caddied for me anyway. But I think you
need to caddy for more people like me who really
suck at the game, Matt.
Speaker 1 (30:39):
Every Saturday I play with three guys who are really
bad at golf. So I know, you know, I know
how I watch people play all the time. I mean,
I you know, we walk around golf courses. The funniest thing.
We're walking around a golf course the other day and
there were two women playing. You guys walk ahead. They
just hate you watching him play golf. Parish to what
(31:00):
you know, I see lots of bad players, don't you know.
We deal with them all the time. I know I do.
I have difficult the game is but yeah, you know,
we're talking about two you know, we're talking about two
entirely different games. You know that, you know, which is
why you need two sets. I think you need two
sets of rules. Yeah, but you know, this is the man.
(31:22):
This is on the manufacturers and the PJA too, because
they said we're not going to you know, the game
shouldn't be bifecated. So you said, okay, it's going to
be done for everybody. So you know, but because because
because doing nothing is not an option, and historically Gordon Sergeant,
he's going to be the norm, because that's what's always happened.
(31:43):
And why is it going to be any different now?
You know, there are a bunch of fourteen and fifteen
year old kids in there who are being told if
you want to compete as a player on the PGA too,
you have to win the club at one hundred and
thirty miles an hour. Your balls bed's got to be
one hundred and ninety miles an hour. So what's going
to happen? That's what they're going to do, because that's
what humans do.
Speaker 6 (31:59):
You know what's going to happen. They're all going to
try to swing for one hundred and thirty miles an hour,
and they're going to hurt their backs, and you know,
the will Zala Tauruses of the world, the rollback happens
naturally and organically because no one like can sustain that
type of physical activity at anything beyond your mid to
late twenties. You know, it's going to happen naturally. You're
(32:21):
going to have a younger group of people who come up.
If the game allows for these people to your back
to your other point of so many people trying to
get in and get it, get a piece of the
cash that's floating around in the professional game, because that's
the big carrot. And why all those thousands of people
are trying to achieve that elite level is because there's
money to be made and only and more to your point,
(32:44):
there's only small chunk of people who are actually getting
access to that money. So that's again part of the
professional you know, dilemma. But not many Gordon sergeants are
going to be able to swing one hundred and thirty
mile hour swing speeds or drive at three hundred and
seventy yards for more than like one two, three, four five.
How long is he going to be able to do it?
And the other thing is is that those people that
(33:05):
are swinging that lard are not just going out and
walking away and winning by ten shots.
Speaker 1 (33:10):
Which is the next issue, which this is not about scoring.
This is not about scoring. You can distort the dimensions
of it of any golf course in the world to
make even part win a tournament. Just do it. Seven
didn't say you just have those fairways, I'll win every week.
So but sure some of them get it, but not
all of them will get injured. You know, there's bound
one hundred and twenty five mother Wake. And you know,
(33:32):
the other point about this is do we want to
drive and what we have one? You know, do you
want to drive a Sam Snead out of the game,
who was for three consecutive he is in his sixties
finish in the top five in the PG Championship. Do
we never want to see that ever again? Or Jack
(33:53):
Nichols winning the masses at forty six, or do you
want to I don't think.
Speaker 6 (33:58):
That's actually a great look for professional golf to be
total Well.
Speaker 1 (34:01):
No, I think it's amazing that.
Speaker 6 (34:03):
I think a big, old chubby guy walking off off
the couch and going and winning a major championship.
Speaker 1 (34:08):
Well, yea, but Sam Steve was arguably the greatest athter
who ever played the game. The guy was a great
enough player, and his sixties definished the top five in
a major championship three years in a row. Well, I
think it was ninth one year, and then third and
fifth and whatever he was. It was a fricking amazing achievement.
You know, do we want to kill that? But you
know we've killed the Corey Paven and Calvin Pete out
(34:32):
of the game. Those you know. You know, if someone
counted the ball at crazy distance, well I consider a
crazy distance. They can't play anymore. I mean, why do
you want to drive those players out of the game.
How much better was the game for the variety it had.
Now it's just all about it. You know, if you
can't hit fair enough, you can't play. Corey Pavin couldn't
itIt far enough, but he could play because you know,
(34:52):
last I looked, there were thirteen other clubs in the
bag and he was really good with him. If you
can't drive the ball X distance, you can't compete. It's
a horrendous look for the game.
Speaker 6 (35:03):
In a way, we're kind of agreeing, you know, we
keep landing on an agreement that you know, a bifurcation
would have been the best scenario. Manufacturers, I see their point.
It's a business they're making money.
Speaker 1 (35:17):
Way with then I just don't see that point because
because I actually don't see that point, because because if
some rocket science technolo I just can't went to the
boss of titles tomorrow and said I've figured out how
to make a ball that goes four hundred yards it's legal,
they would switch their machines tomorrow to make that ball.
I don't give a damn about the consequences on golf courses,
(35:39):
on the speed of play, on the boundary problems who
would affect They couldn't care less, and it's not their
job to care care it's not their job to care.
But it's the administrator's job to care about how golf
courses play, how the ball goes offline, you know the
consequences of the distance. It's it's their job to care.
(35:59):
And you know, they've decided that four hundred yards is
not the line on the standards three hundred and thirty
or three hundred and forty, So so what point is
it too far?
Speaker 6 (36:09):
But again, let's go back to that point about how
in other sports people don't get bit paid to play
that specific bat or play that specific ball, because essentially
Major League Baseball has a ball that everybody plays and
a bat and that has to conform. There's you know,
I think there are different versions of a wooden bat
(36:30):
or companies that make wooden bats that players can choose from,
So why not Why don't then the governing bodies would
you be a fan of if today's announcement was the
USG and the RNA we're going to go into development
with in in their own ball and maybe even like
it could even expand beyond that, essentially to say this
(36:53):
is these are our rules and regulations to play in
our tournament. We're putting up twenty million, and let the
chips Forllward. They may.
Speaker 1 (37:01):
Aunt Tata. That's kind of say get out of that business.
Why are you in that business?
Speaker 6 (37:07):
They can't say that anyway. They're saying that anyway.
Speaker 1 (37:10):
No, well, I think the manufacturers, like the ball I
don't see what the wash of the and I in
the USA and in the business of bull Man. If
they're in the business of running torments, they're not in
the business of manufacturing golf polls.
Speaker 6 (37:19):
But you eliminate that whole other thing that we're talking about,
which is the dilemma, which is the manufacturers are paying
players to play, and therefore the players are going to
reject the bifurcation. So in order let's again stay let's
I feel like we should stay focused on the subset
of the game that it truly impacts, which is such
a small percentage, and let's stay hyper focused on that
(37:41):
and continue to make adjustments that impact that group. But
be the minute you start making adjustments that impact the
people who pay to play, in which the game is
already hard, it's for them. No matter what we do.
It makes no sense in the minute it goes to
the masses, it makes no sense to me.
Speaker 1 (37:58):
Well, two points, that would be the gun. One of
the game's never been easier.
Speaker 6 (38:02):
To play, but it's still hard.
Speaker 1 (38:05):
It's still hard, and it's hard because it's hard because
it's a game of it's hard because it's a game
of technique, and it's hard to master the technique. And
the average player, the average player plays at a level
they play because of their technique. You know, if you're
(38:25):
a twenty handicap player, it's because you've got a twenty
handicap swing playing and a twenty handicap grip and a
twenty handicap swing twenty seven fifteen for whatever level it is,
you play at that level because it's a game of technique.
So it's you know, so I've forgot that, I've lost
my point.
Speaker 5 (38:42):
Yeah.
Speaker 1 (38:44):
My other point would be people make the analogy of
you know, running tracks and baseball tracks and cricket fields.
They're not pieces of architecture. Golf course is unique. A
golf course is unique in sports is it's a piece
of architecture designed and intended to test a wide variety
of skills and to make holes that ask different questions.
(39:05):
And until this generation, if you built, if an architect
built a hole that was a four hundred and seventy
yards Part four, he could reasonably expect a hole to
test driving a long line or driving a mid iron,
and he built the green that was appropriate for the
shot that was being played to it. Not always, but generally,
you know, there were great holes with greens that are
(39:26):
wildly the road hole Andrews is not is not an
appropriate green for a long line approach. It's the best
hole in the world, and it's an exception that proves
the rule. But you know, golf courses asked those questions.
They don't at the top level, they don't ask those
questions anymore. In fact, there are a whole bunch of
(39:47):
holes that were designed with greens that were built to
receive mid the long line so now now played with wedges.
Speaker 6 (39:55):
So there they weren't designed to roll at eleven on
the stemp or twelve on the stemp either. They weren't.
There's that, like, you know, there's a lot of other you.
Speaker 1 (40:02):
Know, well, well that's that's awesome, but that's also true,
and that comes back. But you know, fundamentally, there are
a whole bunch of greens who were built for long
lines that are now players in short lines too. So
the game's out of scale. It's and we're talking about
at the top level. It's not just PJ Tour plays.
It's there's a whole you know, there's there are thousands
(40:22):
of people, thousands of great amateurs who they all hit
the ball forever, and golf courses don't play the way
they used to play, the way that they were intended
to play, the way the great minds of you know,
Bobby Jones, and again you know he's going back to
the past, the way Jones and mackenzie and the great
minds thought, you know, George Thomas and all the great
architects that the tests they were making, the way the
(40:44):
game they should the way they saw the game playing,
and the way it should be played. You know, that's
completely gone and lost. And you know, is Wally youle
On a better mind than Alistair McKenzie or Bobby Jones,
well or whoever's the boss that time. All they care
about is their bottom line and that perception of how
this will hurt their business. Now, I didn't think of
(41:04):
them like a damn but a difference said business, because
they've always made the best golf ball, and they've developed
an amazing brand payple of a great loyalty to it.
They're always gonna buy Tatness bul whether it goes two
hundred and fifty turing eighty three hundred and thirty yards,
They're still gonna buy their golf ball.
Speaker 4 (41:20):
I gotta jump in here. I need to catch a plane.
I'm coming to see you, Michael. We've been podcasting for
over three hours straight here.
Speaker 1 (41:28):
Uh, they'll fed up with that.
Speaker 4 (41:30):
I'm not fed up. I'm just I'm just out of time.
I got to start getting to the airport, but but
very quickly. Let's just tee it up. So Michael, I
am coming your way. I'm heading to San Francsco Airport
here to fly to Melbourne to the sand Bell Invitational.
I can't wait. I've been covering the tournament the last
two years from afar. Now I'll be in the dirt,
(41:51):
at least in the sand. Tell the listeners why this
tournament is special and what it means to you personally.
Speaker 1 (42:00):
Well, we started off in Covid. Quickly the kids said
no where to play, and Jeff Ogley and I started
to think all the game, which was it was an
eighteen and thirty six old just chance to play, and
they started playing competitive golf and it was fantastic and
you know they embraced it. Now you know they play
most Mondays and sam Belt Tormentsort evolved out of that
(42:24):
where we went to originally kens and Heath Peninsula, kingswood
yar in Ryal, Melbourne. So can we have a day
at each of your courses to run a four round tournament.
We want about thirty five or thirty six pros and
the same number of kids, so men and women, boys
and girls. We've got an eleven year old playing this year,
(42:46):
a twelve year old, a bunch of teenagers like thirteen fourty.
Emilia Harris who won last year as fifteen. She's like
a veteran. I'm just looking at I'm just looking at
the PGA Tour score. Robin Troy is now leading at
twenty seven hunder par. She's leaving the LPGA Tour school
(43:08):
that she looks like she's going to win through fifteen
holes to come and play. Nicholas Colsart is playing Cam Davis,
who is amazing, is a defending champion. Jeff og he's
obviously playing. Elvis is playing sother a bunch of great
young and old pros, young amateurs. It's free to get in.
We play a different course every day. Can't tell you
(43:29):
how many really good young Australian plays send me emails
pleading to play, and I'm sorry, guys, we've only got
thirty six bots and I wish I could fit you
in and send me an email earlier and yeah. So
it's a really cool tournament. It's free to get in.
And you can see Cameron Davis playing with a thirteen
year old girl. I mean last year he played the
(43:50):
last two rounds with Mamachah Kabori, who's Kazuma Kabori's brother sister.
He had a driver on the seventeenth hole, a peninsula
king do. I fought and hold it and beat her
by one shot, so she's a driver off the deck.
It was amazing shots. So the women play off different
teas and they play a different par so the men play.
(44:14):
So we cut the men's part down at seventy on
not exactly but essentially seventy on Royal Melbourne and the area.
Finchill out the women's past seventy two and the winning
score is relative to power if that makes sense, does it?
So it's a really cool event and this is the
(44:36):
third year and it's gonna be great fun to watch
out evolves.
Speaker 6 (44:40):
It's really really quick. Hugh Foley, our friend from Ireland,
a dear friend, is playing, which is amazing and has
quite the resume. Second in the US Midam two years
ago and on the north and South of Ireland. Not
done since. I think Darren Clerk did it way back when.
So you got Hugh Foley. But Jeff flew out from
(45:01):
Melbourne to play in the Wishbone Brawl and on the
driving range again not to not to talk for Jeff,
and we're going to run a clip of his about
the sand belt. But I love the idea that part
of the reason, and I'm sure you can, you can,
you know, emphasize this. But what Jeff loves about this
is that as a kid he would have loved an
(45:21):
opportunity to play with the pros, to pick their brains,
to see them, you know, shoulder to shoulder, and watch
how they carry themselves, how they practice, how they get ready,
how how they perform under pressure, And that to me
is also a really cool subset of this is that
(45:41):
that's what you guys are providing, is this sort of
this opportunity to sort of compete together.
Speaker 1 (45:47):
Yeah, yeah, well well that's not so much the subset,
and it's the whole point of it. You know, it's
the mentoring thing. It's like, you know, the sounds for
you Amelia Harris when she was thirtained, so sit down
with Petafala who was sixty years old, talk about, you know,
how did you play that shot? How do I prepare it?
Because Chok is the most rabid preparer for pro golf
(46:08):
ever and Sevy one said, the only man with a
better shortcame on the European than me is Peter Fowler,
so you know, and you know she was with him
for an hour and a half and he took it
down the chipping grind and he showed her how to
play different shots and so that's the whole point of
the whole thing. And you know, it was the mentoring thing,
and it's a really cool to The clubs are great
because it's not too much of an inconvenience for the
(46:28):
members because we only spend one day at them. There
are no grandstands, TV towers that you know, we don't
have to pay them any money for the course. Yeah,
it's me. It's an amazing thing. And Lloyd Cole's in
Melbourne on Wednesday night, so Alan, you're coming to see
Lloyd Cole on Wednesday night.
Speaker 5 (46:45):
I think I look forward to it, So.
Speaker 1 (46:47):
That'll be fun. So Lloyd's of course a complete golf
nutt and Australians love Lloyd Cole. So he's playing in
town on Wednesday night. So we'll see how many of
the players want to come. Most of them have probably
never heard of Lloyd Cole. But anyway, now and all
I have.
Speaker 6 (47:02):
Michael, thank you for your time and and thank you
for your perspective and all that you do for the game.
And obviously a big like I said, big fan of
your your opinion and your architecture. And I've been doing
some things on what you guys have been doing. And
you've got a great team and uh, and so keep
up all the great work. And I'm I'm uh. You
know at some point you know that at the core
(47:26):
of all this is is we love the game. And
I hope someday to come down to the Sand Belt
and uh and to walk some fairways.
Speaker 1 (47:33):
Yeah, to come and play it and say it and
look forward to see you Alan.
Speaker 5 (47:36):
All right, thank you, Michael, Thank you, Michael.
Speaker 4 (47:39):
Okay, well, Michael Clayton and I will continue this conversation
in person in Melbourne while I'm covering the sand Belt Invitational.
You can follow all that on Firepit Collective dot com.
There'll be daily stories, probably some more podcasts. We'll be
doing some fun stuff on social along the way, on
my handles and of course on the Firepit handles.
Speaker 5 (47:58):
So thanks to listening.
Speaker 4 (48:01):
For those of you who went from Bamberger to Clayton,
you're the lunatic fringe of golf fans and we love
you and we thank you for your support. Matt, always
a pleasure. I wish I had as much passion for
anything in my life as you do for the anti
rollback arguments. It's impressive.
Speaker 1 (48:17):
Uh and uh.
Speaker 4 (48:19):
But anyway, good stuff. Thanks for having us safe. Yeah,
thank you, thank you, and that's the end of this podcast. Goodbye.
Speaker 3 (48:29):
I'll bet big and I played the wind made a
fortune when my ship game and I ran the table
and never thought I could fall down.
Speaker 2 (48:40):
The win hit me lack of canon the ball and
now I can't shake this losing stream. Every road I
take is a dead end street.
Speaker 6 (48:55):
I got dat in my head.
Speaker 2 (48:57):
Can you jo not to think what I'm thinking about now?
Kind of thoughts in my head.
Speaker 3 (49:05):
I can't get them out. Trying not to think what
I'm thinking about
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