Fire Drill 099: State of the Union

In this Fire Drill podcast, Matt Ginella and Alan Shipnuck go deep on the complicated negotiations around the framework agreement, drawing on Alan’s new reporting. They also introduce Bonfires, events that will provide access, camaraderie, competition and quality experiences at some of the best courses and resorts in the world.🔥

See omnystudio.com/listener for privacy information.

Episode Transcript

Speaker 1 (00:03):
The majors pulsate with that tension. As you mentioned earlier,
they become more major, like they have more meaning and
so let's see it like these next three months are
gonna tell us a lot.

Speaker 2 (00:12):
But it's also a throws.

Speaker 1 (00:15):
Into sharp relief that the events that matter are not
on the PGA Tour or on livcol there are these
other things, and that's another structural problem for the game.
So yeah, it's it's thank god the Masters this year,
all these background issues will subside for at least four
days and we can just enjoy the competition.

Speaker 2 (00:35):
But then as soon as.

Speaker 1 (00:35):
It's over, who wins and who loses takes on different
shades of meaning. So uh, it's it's a fascinating moment.
I mean, and it's not.

Speaker 2 (00:44):
It's just it's not done that got daunts.

Speaker 3 (00:49):
Can't get them and not the thing what I'm thinking about,
can't get them out the thing well I'm thinking about.

Speaker 1 (01:10):
All right, Hello and welcome back to another fire drill.
It's been a little it's been a minute here with
the Matt Janella. We are excited to kick off Masters week.
Talk about a whole bunch of things.

Speaker 4 (01:22):
Hi, Matt Alan, great to be with you. As always
and excited to hear about what you know. I think
a lot of people have been asking you us and
it's time.

Speaker 1 (01:37):
Indeed, Yeah, we're gonna we're gonna focus on what's happening
to professional golf and what's happening with the company. But
let's just real quick redirect folks if you haven't had
a chance to listen to Matt's episodic podcast about lab Hutters,
which is it's more than a golf story. It's really
a cool business story. It's about entrepreneurship, it's about dream

(02:01):
and there's all these colorful characters who come in and
out of the tale. Why did you want to tell
this story?

Speaker 2 (02:07):
Matt? Just give a little tease.

Speaker 4 (02:09):
I said it in part one. I had no intent
of actually an eight part. Now it's actually a nine
part of dropping a bonus today as we're recording this
in which you get, you know, a little more reflections
and anecdotes from people like Kelly Slater on Surfing Ireland.
But I you know, as I said in part one,

(02:31):
I was introduced to this concept of lab putter in
the January twenty nineteen PGA Merchandise show, in which an
old college friend told me to meet this guy, Sam
Hahn and see this revolutionary product that he was selling.
I'm not, as you know, I'm not an equipment geek.
I've had the same putter for like fourteen years. I

(02:54):
saw what was presented to me as the revealer, which
I've learned a lot about since, and I just I
didn't I really kind of didn't comprehend what I was seeing.
Cut two years later and knowing what we know about
Lucas Glover, having seen what we've seen from Lucas Glover
with a horrific case of the yips playing out you

(03:16):
know on TV with tight you know, zoomed in cameras
that culminated with push putting, to have him go from
that at the beginning of twenty twenty three to eventually
winning back to back PGA Tour events, the Windom And
and the FedEx the start of the playoffs, and I

(03:40):
was like, wait, is this the putter that I saw
back in twenty and led to a phone call to
Sam Han, the CEO and co owner, which led to
Bill Pressey, which led to Von Taylor and Jeff Sloman
and Tim Wilkinson and Brett Rumford and Kelly Slater and
Adam Scott, and you know people like Jason who's now

(04:01):
you know, this kind of mental coach, and Mac Barnhart,
Michael Simps, I mean, eighteen interviews later, and to your point,
it is so much more than just a story about
a putter. It's it's all those things that you mentioned,
and it also kind of I just think it gives

(04:22):
people hope who have struggled on putting surfaces in life
in general. I mean, it just it's you know, at
the core of it, it's it, you know. In One
of the sweet things is that Lucas Glover kind of
shows his kids that what he preaches to them and
what we all preach to our kids is don't give up,

(04:44):
grind it out. You know, hard work eventually pays off.
And he did that and showed them and and that
story is just one of many stories that's told in
this series.

Speaker 1 (04:58):
Yeah, no, it it was really really well and I
would anyone who's listened to this, I would encourage you
to go back and check that out. Another thing that
you might look at that will accentuate your enjoyment of
this particular podcast is Bloomberg Business Week rang me up
and asked if I would write a story about the
chaotic state of professional golf and really get granular on

(05:22):
the money, the finances, the details.

Speaker 2 (05:25):
And it was a fun challenge. Of course, I said, Yes.

Speaker 1 (05:28):
The editor is a good friend of my book editor,
and he's a golfer. The deadline of the piece was
built around his trip to Pinehurst, you know he was
He said, I never get to get golf stories in
the magazine.

Speaker 2 (05:38):
I'd love for you to do this one. And so
it was a fun challenge.

Speaker 1 (05:41):
I'm it's linked on my Twitter and of course you
can find it through any of the Bloomberg business Week
channels as well.

Speaker 2 (05:49):
And so I sent it to Matt.

Speaker 1 (05:52):
He's got a sneak preview of it, and one of it
seems like a good jumping off point to talk about
where we are. You know, the Masters is kind of
this inflection point where we're getting all the players together
for the first time since last July.

Speaker 2 (06:04):
You have all the best players in the same place.
Although shout out Taylor Gooch, he's getting left behind.

Speaker 1 (06:10):
And all the all the power brokers, all the ballers,
shot callers are hanging out under the tree like there's
never going to be any movement on the So called
framework agreement. You would think that Masters we could could
push it along. And so Matt, you read the story
kind of what's on your mind and what do you
want to know more about?

Speaker 4 (06:30):
I want to know more about all of it. And
the April Fools jokes about Taylor Gooch getting a last
minute invitation to the Masters were I mean, cruel and
unusual but delicious but also you know, slightly funny. And
before we get to that, I just want to also
just pay a few bills here and just thank Dormy Workshop,
the quality leather goods company, Canadian Base, the Bishop Brothers

(06:53):
who have become good friends of ours, big supporters of
what we do and how we do it. We can't
thank them enough for their partnership. And we'll get to
more of how we're going to evolve that partnership later
on in this podcast. But shout out to Dormy Workshop
and if you go to Dormy Workshop dot com and
see all their quality leather goods, especially their headcovers, double bags,

(07:14):
putter covers, of which some of is available at Firepitcollective
dot com. If you go to Dormy Workshop dot com
and use fire Pit fifteen, you get a fifteen percent
discount off your next purchase.

Speaker 2 (07:24):
So just thank you for that. I'm always I'm always
so hasty. Sorry, sorry, Dormy. I love you guys too.

Speaker 1 (07:31):
I didn't mean the gloss over that that's important.

Speaker 4 (07:34):
Now to the to the good stuff here as it
relates to your story, your reporting. And again I say
this all the time, I just don't know where we
are in this world of golf without your your grit,
your grind, your reporting, your spine through all of this,

(07:59):
as you've taken shrapnel from from from it from so
many different directions. It seems like you can't write something
without equally pissing off both sides every time you hit send,
which boggles my mind. It just means to me that
people I think want the truth, but maybe they don't

(08:20):
actually like reading it or seeing it or hearing it.
And I just I just marvel at at at at
your professionalism and your willingness to just do what you
do and how you do it. So on that note,
the state of men's professional golf specifically is as you know,

(08:42):
as told by Alan Schipnutt.

Speaker 1 (08:46):
It's it's it's messier than it's ever been. I mean, no,
you know, everyone wants a resolution, and there was this
this fantasy floating around that they're gonna they're gonna have
everything worked out by the masters. I mean, the end
of twenty four might be ambitious. There's so many moving parts,
and the SSG investment into PGA Tour enterprises has just

(09:11):
muddied the waters because you know, which.

Speaker 4 (09:14):
Is just to explain that for a second, SSG investment
really quick for people who don't yeah.

Speaker 1 (09:19):
Yeah, if you haven't been following this on a granular level,
the PGA Tour and Live Golf had got into this
this death spiral of you know, mutually assured destruction. Neither
business was going to work. Live is hemorrhaging money. The
tour product has been badly devalued, the sponsors were fleeing,

(09:39):
so they kind of recognize that. And that was what
the framework agreement came out, you know now nine months ago,
saying all right, we'll drop the lawsuits and we're going
to find a way to work together. But that was
that was It was not a legal document. It was
basically like a handshake saying, okay, we'll drop the lawsuits
and we'll figure out it. Anything else, we'll figure that

(10:02):
out later. And Of course, as it became more clear
that it was just aspirational and there was there was
no teeth, there was no penalty if either side walked away,
then all the sharks started circling from Wall Street and
Silicon Valley and even Hollywood, and ultimately the tour had eleven,
you know, twenty different parties signed NDAs. Eleven submitted bids

(10:25):
to invest in this new PG Tour Enterprises, which kind
of reshapes the old fashioned, outdated model of the tour
where it was just a pass the organization that kind
of collected money, gave it to the players into charity,
but could never really invest in itself. I mean, the
mandate of the tour has always been whatever you make,
you have to give away either to the players or

(10:46):
to charity. They couldn't they couldn't do any long term
strategic investment to grow the business as a five oh
one C six. So by becoming PG Tour Enterprises, a
for profit company, now all the ideas they've had through
the years, but they could act on. They finally have

(11:06):
that ability. And so the partner they chose in this SSG,
which is this consortium of team owners like John Henry,
the Red Sox and Arthur Blank of the Falcons and
these private equity superstars. These guys put in a billion
and a half dollars right away, and that was for

(11:27):
which is not public but they will find out, is
for an eleven point five percent stake in the new company.
The tour can access another one point five billion dollars
by selling off more equity, and it doesn't have to
be all at once if they because basically this first
billion and a half is just going to the players
just as a reward for those who didn't leave and

(11:47):
go to live. So they took this money. They had
to make the players hole the guys who turned down
live and stayed.

Speaker 2 (11:54):
But now if.

Speaker 1 (11:55):
They are going to actually grow their business, they're going
to need more money. So they can sell off another
or five percent and take another eight hundred million.

Speaker 2 (12:03):
And and so.

Speaker 1 (12:05):
The mandate of the story, because it was for you know,
Bloomberg Business Week, was to understand the business.

Speaker 2 (12:09):
And I learned a heck of a lot. And I
talked to top.

Speaker 1 (12:12):
Executives on both tours Live and PGA Tour, talk to
players on both sides of the Great Divide.

Speaker 2 (12:18):
I talked to some independent analysts and.

Speaker 4 (12:21):
Wait players still talk. I thought they've been told I
have to talk to you. I can't believe you're actually
still talking to players.

Speaker 1 (12:28):
I know that it's funny that there's that perception. I mean,
both of the Phil Book and the Live, Live and
Let Die actually increased my credibility with players. What i've
what I've ad.

Speaker 4 (12:38):
Course, you're one of the few people who are actually
fighting for something outside the top twenty players in the world. Like,
who who is their voice if it's not you.

Speaker 2 (12:49):
Yeah, it's interesting.

Speaker 1 (12:50):
I went to what it used to be the Honda
Classic in Palm Beach Guards now it's the whatever Cognizant,
whatever lame title has and I did so many interviews
and it was actually funny.

Speaker 2 (13:02):
Here Dixon was in the vicinity where I was doing
a lot of the interviews. He's like, wow, you talked
to everybody.

Speaker 1 (13:07):
I said, well, that's my job, and like, you know,
a member of the play of the board of directors
gave me a hug at the end of our interview.

Speaker 2 (13:13):
He's like, he's like, thanks for treating us fairly. It
was just funny.

Speaker 1 (13:16):
So, yeah, players still talk to me, thankfully it all.
Sometimes it's more fun when they don't because then it
forces you to go other avenues. But yeah, I got
a lot of voices in this piece, and.

Speaker 4 (13:27):
Some of them were actually on the record too, which.

Speaker 2 (13:30):
Is very Yeah, yeah, most And so.

Speaker 1 (13:35):
It is interesting, how is the tour going to make
money so it can it can it can grow their
business so all these private equity sharks can get their
money back and actually make a profit.

Speaker 2 (13:48):
They don't have a great answer for that.

Speaker 1 (13:50):
I mean, the SSG has been very patient and they
you know, the typical when private equity comes into a business,
the first thing they do is fire everybody and cut
costs and strip it down to its parts, and they
try and sell pieces off. And that's kind of how
they how they make their money. It's a ruthless game.
They have assurances that you know, from everyone at SSG
that they're in this for the long term. They're not

(14:11):
in a rush. They're not going to be looking at
quarterly reports for a while. And so, I mean one
of the things that the tour wants to do is
real estate, which is really interesting. You know that Rory
mentioned this to me. Some of the tour guys mentioned
it to me. They have this TPC network that they
can really grow they can gobble up distress courses, they
can rebrand it, they can sell housing like okay, that's

(14:33):
an interesting business.

Speaker 4 (14:36):
They have.

Speaker 1 (14:38):
They've invested a lot in what they're calling PGA Tour Studios,
which will come online the end of this year, and
a state of the art facility which a tour has
never had, where they can customize their feeds. Because the
tour creates the feed that the networks us. To a
large degree, it's been consolidated, but now they're going to

(14:58):
be able to custom it. So they can have a
special feed that goes to Korea that's in Korean with
Korean announcers that heavily shows the Korean players, and of
course they'll show the leaders as well. They can do
that for Japan, they can do that for Australia. They
have a plan to really make their product more appealing globally.

(15:22):
Now it's not easily monetizable right now because they're locked
into all these these rights deals they go through twenty thirty.
But if they create this much better entertainment product, they
will be able to cash in in you know, five
to six years when they negotiate the new deal.

Speaker 2 (15:39):
And apparently ssg's.

Speaker 4 (15:41):
Willing to wait.

Speaker 1 (15:41):
I mean that may be the bonanza is thet the
next media rights deal, So you know, I asked they
really want to lean into gaming, and there's probably going
to be a moment in time where the PGA Tour
app you can place bets right on the site. They're
trying to figure that out. It's complex because different states

(16:01):
have different rules. And you know, if you're driving in
Georgia and you cross over to the Florida across the
invisible boundary into another state, you know, different states have
different rules that pass to be able to just shut
off in those scenarios. This is some complicated tech. But
you know, the most of the most valuable proprietary data

(16:23):
that the tour has shot link and there's some people
who want to basically make that a subscription service for betters,
and so all these degenerate betters who you know, golf
is the ultimate sport for gambling, right, It's dawned to
dusk four days a week, so.

Speaker 4 (16:41):
You know, you make I mean every ship, it's like.

Speaker 1 (16:44):
Yeah, so, and the data is so granular now and
you can bet on everything, so you could charge five
hundred dollars a year one thousand dollars a year and
a lot of people would subscribe to that. Now, talking
to the tour guys, they're like, everything that we decide
on going forward, it's a mix between how do we
maximize revenue and how do we not piss off fans
because people liked it just everyday fans like to look

(17:05):
at shot linked data too, So these are the tough
decisions they're going to have to make.

Speaker 2 (17:10):
But you know, I got.

Speaker 4 (17:12):
Something pissing off fans, That's that's at the core of
all of this. But I know we can get more
to that later, but go ahead.

Speaker 2 (17:19):
Yeah.

Speaker 1 (17:19):
You know Rory mcelright, I got someone on one time
with him, and you know, he said, we've got to
make every tournament an event. Every tournament has to be
like the Phoenix Open. We have to bring in non
golf fans and we have to we have to grow
our audience. We have to make it fun and make
it a party and have music. And of course I
mentioned this to Lee Westwood and the look on his

(17:40):
face was just priceless, because of course that's what Liv's
been trying to do all along. They've been criticized for it,
but you know, the products are merging, right, Like the
tour product is looking more and more like Live in
that they're trying to get all the players together for
these big money events with no cuts, small fields they're
gonna try and leaning on the entertainment aspects.

Speaker 2 (18:02):
So.

Speaker 1 (18:03):
Each each tour is kind of helping the other one evolve.
And on the live side, you know, certainly they are
their banking on selling their franchises, which there's many jokes
about who's going to want to buy the four aces,
but in their mind there is there is a market
out there. And the the TGL, you know, the Tech

(18:26):
Golf League that's obviously the air went out of that one,
literally and figuratively they're going to launch it next year.

Speaker 2 (18:31):
But also even.

Speaker 1 (18:35):
What's what's happening in sports at large. I mean, you
see the investment from private equity into every professional sport,
and you know, Goldman, Sachs and these other big companies
have now have dedicated sports divisions, and you look at
what what teams are selling for across the board. They
feel like Live, they are confident they're going to be
able to find buyers and they feel like they I mean,

(18:58):
the guys have told me and I leave them up
to a point that there's been a big uptick in
interest in the last six months because you know, eight
of the events this year for Live are going to
go international. They're going to go to Korea for the
first time, They're going to Hong Kong. They're definitely gonna
get a Japan tournament on the schedule for next year.
And in those markets, there's a lot of there's a

(19:21):
lot of wealthy people who are dying to get into
professional sports and have a have a you know, a
toe hold in American sports. But you can't buy the
Dallas Cowboys because that's that's eight billion dollars and you know,
the owners unofficially only want to sell to other Americans, right,
They're like, there's the collusion not to allow foreign buyers
in it to some degree. But Live will happily sell

(19:43):
you one of their teams for three or four or
five hundred million dollars. And now you're part of this
sports ecosystem. Now you have access to the public investment
fund and all the deals that can come with that.
You get to party on the yacht with Dustin and Paulina.
Like I do think that Lives gonna be able to
sell their franchises and that's how the public Investment fund
gets their money back. Because there's thirteen teams now on

(20:07):
Live Golf. They put John Rams together real quick. They're
going to have two more expansion teams at some point,
and so that that's fifteen teams, and if they sell
them for let's say three hundred million dollars, that's four
point five billion. The PIF gets seventy five percent of that.
You know, they would get their money back in a hurry.

Speaker 2 (20:26):
So that's a big part of it.

Speaker 4 (20:29):
But can I can I just can I just ye.

Speaker 2 (20:32):
Jump in and interrupt his monologue? Please I I.

Speaker 4 (20:36):
Because you're you're you're you're sort of painting. You're trying
to paint a picture for me and us of like
how this might ultimately be pieced together. You're talking about
you know, TV contract so distribution, you know, sale teams,

(20:58):
you know, how how the investors might actually get you know,
make this make sense that an actual business standpoint. The
thing to me is, you know, at some point, is
there going to be a point where it's too late?
So Tiger forty eight, Phil like fifty what is he

(21:20):
fifty three? You know, John Rahm is not being seen
unless he's really playing at the the The actual eyeballs
on the men's professional game is in the nose of
that plane is pointing directly at the ground. And you

(21:42):
have the most interesting protagonists off to this other league.
They got their money. Whether that's they're still ambitious from
a professional golf standpoint and trying to win things, we'll
find out over time. I'm but they're not being They're

(22:03):
not really even being seen. The guys who are being
seen by the core audience at this point who watch
an actual PGA Tour event week in and week out
numbers down. Are you know, are are they that interesting?
Apparently not? There is no actual you know, Rory, I

(22:25):
love Rory, but he hasn't won He hasn't won a
major in in is it as eleven years?

Speaker 2 (22:30):
I mean, what what are we going on? Yeah?

Speaker 4 (22:33):
So I mean what what? At what point? And you
got YouTubers who are actually being seen in these these
these you know, raw videos by more people than who
watch men's professional golfers. That's that's the facts. Okay, So

(22:55):
at one point does this become like the ship has sailed?
It's too late, Like they they you can't continue to
slam the door on the customer's face and continue to
expect them to actually come back and want to frequent
your your business.

Speaker 1 (23:16):
Yeah, that's the that's the existential threat to both both
tours right now is that they've turned off a lot
of fans and how how do they win them back?

Speaker 4 (23:26):
Who wins them back? What format, what structure, what you
know aside from a live versus PGA tour, Ryder Cup
like this year, what you know? And the Majors. I've
always said we are going to get more major, but
we're going to find out if that's true. I mean,

(23:47):
I think the Masters always does what it does. But
after that, I mean, what you know, if Danny Willett
goes out and wins this Masters, what I mean?

Speaker 2 (23:57):
Yeah, the TV ratings for this Masters are going to
be highly scrutinized. If you know.

Speaker 1 (24:05):
One of the problems for the tour is that their
best players haven't played well this year. You know, George
speedth Justin Thomas, gone down the list, Colin Morrik k
how like, all these guys haven't won a tournament and
there's reason to question where they are in their careers
because you look at Speed, He's won twice in like
seven years, Thomas has been in a nose dive, just
fired bones or parted ways with We don't know exactly

(24:27):
how that played out yet, but you know, Marik cow
has won once in three years. Like, these guys are
just struggling in general, not just this year, but overall.
Scheffler has become this dominant force. And what's not to
like except for the fact he doesn't Scotty Scheffler is
the guy we all want to marry our daughter, right.
He's like wholesome and god fearing and just a wonderful

(24:49):
human being. But he doesn't inspire any passion in fans. Really,
he's just two aw shucks. There's no energy, there's no
mojo there. And so yeah, the tour is in trouble
because their products has suffered. They've lost a lot of
big names, they've lost a lot of personality, they've lost
the anti heroes. You know, they're banking on just the

(25:13):
legacy the tour that if you win the La Open
or you win Pebble Beats, you're a big deal. But
the fans are kind of voting with their feet, and
the ratings show that that's not necessarily the case. They
want to watch Stars at Stars that drive the bus
and the tour does not have enough of them right now.

Speaker 4 (25:30):
Well, so that's that's what I so, you know, I
think listening to Rory, and again, I love that you
said Rory mentioned to me because obviously in full swing,
it made it look like, you know, not only did
the tour not let you be a part of that,
but it seemed like Rory wanted nothing to do with you,
which I love the fact that, you know, you talk

(25:51):
to him multiple times. It seems to me he of
all people, has seen the light. He has seen he
has been is been flip flopped on right. He was
the poster child for you know, this partnership with Tiger
and thus the institution that is the PGA Tour. Tiger's

(26:12):
out protecting his you know, eighty two wins and you know,
essentially his legacy. Rory is there to be his. You know,
Batman and Robin were there. Rory gets thrown under the bus,
dragged around. We saw him say, you know, at this point,
I don't really actually give a shit what you guys do.
You know, he said that in full swing. That was
probably the most one of the most compelling moments of

(26:33):
that of this season in which he just seems just
you know, exhausted by all of it. Yeah, and and
and and seeing the writing on the wall and him
saying this is making no sense. Look at look at football,
you know, ratings versus golf ratings. Look at the money.
You know, three guys at the Players Championship tied for

(26:56):
second and walked away with one point nine million dollars.
I know one was I think Xander shaffe I can't
take three guys finished second and walked away with almost
two million dollars each. I don't even know who they are,
and and certainly know that they didn't justify that kind
of paycheck for that four rounds of golf with those

(27:18):
types of ratings. It makes absolutely zero sense. So if
you're Rory McElroy and the rumors are swoln an, why
wouldn't you, you know, you've already been fucked over by
the tour and all that the leadership. Why wouldn't you
make sure you take the money and just like make

(27:38):
this a tipping point and then actually have it see
if you can actually then dig in and figure out
and force people to do something that looks like it's
a decision being made for the greater good of the
future of men's professional golf and it better be fast.

Speaker 1 (27:55):
Yeah, Rory's a fascinating character in all of this, and
you know he helped reach ape the tour that that
player meeting that the hym and Tiger led in Wilmington
in the summer of twenty two when that was basically
the first time the tour fought back and was trying
to match the live golf dollar for dollar, and that's
when the elevated events were born. And you know, now Rory,

(28:19):
he's he's he has a little bit of buyer's remorse,
Like he said, maybe we pushed too hard, and maybe
we held the tour ransom a little too much, and
they've given too much to the players because, as you mentioned, Matt,
professional golfers are now the most overpaid athletes in the world.
It's not even close because the money they're making versus

(28:40):
the audience they deliver. If you do dollar to fan,
they would have the worst ratio in sports. Like and
you know this quote that Rory said that's in this
Business Week story is you know, guys want to be
paid like NFL quarterbacks, but you know they're they're their
ratings are fifty times ours. So it's that there's gonna

(29:02):
be a correction in the marketplace.

Speaker 2 (29:03):
It's just a question of when it comes and how.

Speaker 1 (29:05):
But and you know now now, and Rory gave me
some details on the on how the equity is gonna
be distributed. You know, they have this list and they've
got these algorithms. Told me Tiger's number one. Of course
he's number two. He said, Phil would have been number two,
but he's out now. And you know, these guys are
gonna get another bonanza on this equity. It doesn't invest
for eight years and they're still figuring out the mechanics

(29:28):
how you can buy and sell. Guys will get more
grants going forward. It's gonna have value, but how much
is not entirely known or understood.

Speaker 4 (29:39):
Means these guys get older. Meanwhile, these guys get older
and their results get worse. Like it. You know, golfers
don't just stay great. You know, it is a actual
round to round, shot to shot experience. We've seen people disappear.
Why why are we just left to assume that these
names just stay great, like unless there's an actual system

(30:02):
that brings people through and you get fresh blood and
new stories and new characters. You literally each year young
and you you become extinct.

Speaker 1 (30:14):
I mean, if you pull the PGA Tour executives on
who who they want to win this Masters, Roy would
be the obvious choice, but I think probably Ludvig Aber
would be the number two choice because they need they
need more stars.

Speaker 2 (30:27):
But Ludwig gets the the.

Speaker 1 (30:29):
Golf nerds excited. But I don't think he has any
crossover appeal yet. That's why you need this breakthrough to
at a big, big tournament. But who were you know
Nick Dunlap, who of course won as an amateur this
year and now is a pro great player, but I
covered him with the US Amateur. There's a charisma deficit there,

(30:51):
Like he's going to be a very good tour player,
he's not going to be a crossover star.

Speaker 4 (30:55):
Like minting the Woods is the the next Tiger Woods
is the only hope. And that that takes time. That
you know, I mean, these guys have gone out, you know,
getting to three majors, four majors, five majors, that's really
that's all my career. That's compelling. But fifteen majors and

(31:15):
eighty two wins, that's what was the transcendent moment. That's
why these guys are all getting and this guy is
forty eight and broken in so many different ways shapes
and forms, and you know what.

Speaker 1 (31:31):
I mean, Tim Fincham tried to leverage Tiger Woods and
make golf a mainstream sport and that's why the wuc's
were invented, the new TV contracts, and even with when
Tiger in his prime, golf never quite got there. And now,
of course he's in the bottom of the ninth for Tiger,
like we can all see that.

Speaker 4 (31:51):
And he's getting his money now, I mean he's yeah.

Speaker 1 (31:54):
Yeah, he's he's kind of getting this these emeritis paychecks
for you know, it's the pit money. And he's going
to get these equity grants. That's a thank you for
all that you did, for being alive, I mean now yeah,
but like for surviving all these accidents. Like how much
value is Tiger going to drive going forward? You know,
probably not a ton, And the TGL is interesting and

(32:16):
that's a way to keep Tiger in the spotlight and
talking to I'm not.

Speaker 2 (32:21):
Really excited about that product.

Speaker 1 (32:23):
Some people, maybe you know, you mentioned the YouTubers, like
maybe all the people who watch these YouTubers play golf
will turn into TGL and that will be the next
generation of golf fans that will help the sports survive.

Speaker 2 (32:34):
Who knows.

Speaker 1 (32:35):
But interestingly, when talking to the from of the Top
Live executive, I said, to the TGL kind of hurt
you guys, like, you know, they it's team golf. It's
something different. It's younger, it's jazzier, Like it seems like
they kind of stole your thunder.

Speaker 2 (32:47):
They said, no, we think the.

Speaker 1 (32:49):
TGL is great for Live because it introduces this team
concept in a larger way. It kind of validates the
idea of teams. It makes team golf part of this conversation.
And they think that when the TGL launches, which is
now going to be January of twenty five, that that
helps Live. So I thought that was an interesting perspective.
They may be right or they may be wrong, but

(33:11):
you know, how how do you grow this audience. So
one thing that Live announced that no one paid attention to,
but I think is actually very cool is that And
it was a big deal because they're partnering with with Google,
which is obviously the most blue chip company in the world,
and it's already being beta tested and by this summer.
On the live app, you're gonna be able to watch
every shot of every player, and that's a quantum leap

(33:35):
forward for golf coverage. You know, we get it at
the Players Championship. The Masters, you can sort of do
it somewhat on delay. You know, if you go to
Masters dot com or dot org I can't remember which one,
whatever their website is.

Speaker 4 (33:50):
You can. And then they became Calm.

Speaker 2 (33:53):
I think that's right. Yeah, then you go.

Speaker 1 (33:55):
You can watch it every shot, but it's slightly delayed,
and it's just like bang bang. It's it's a great
tool for reporters because you go out walk for two
hours and see everything you missed, but it's more like
highlight highlight highlight. It's not the real EBB and flow
of around and so live doing that is a huge
thing for the sport as a concept, and so talking

(34:18):
to the people at PGA Tour Studios, they will have
the ability to do that by the end of this year.
On the PGA Tour, I said, that's amazing.

Speaker 4 (34:24):
I can't wait.

Speaker 1 (34:25):
Like, well, we're kind of locked into these contracts, you know,
we're gonna have to roll it out very slowly. I
was like, guys, the toothpastes is out of the tube. Like,
if you want to stay relevant, you need to give
the fans what they want. Like, well, you know it's
gonna come online very slowly, a little bit each year.
You know, we have we have our partners.

Speaker 2 (34:44):
It's like, I.

Speaker 4 (34:45):
Would think you would take some of that money that
they're getting and instead of like continuing to pad the
player's bank accounts, they actually spend you something, ripping up
these contracts, paying out the contracts. That's what I said, Yeah,
buy these guys out, but it's not.

Speaker 1 (35:06):
You know, the tour gets seven hundred million dollars a
year from its TV partners. That's real money. But my
whole thing is why not find a way to make
it work for everyone? So if you could, you could
partner with with ESPN on the street you already do
on the streaming, give them the technology, they can charge more,

(35:27):
you can split the difference and the fans get what
they want. But that mentality like we can actually do
this and it would be amazing, but we're not going
to give it to the fans because we've got a
contract for the next six years.

Speaker 2 (35:38):
It's like, oh, it's so.

Speaker 1 (35:39):
Maddening, but you know this is how Live and the
tour this push pull of trying to improve the product,
like we may actually see that.

Speaker 4 (35:50):
Well, tell me, tell me about the Roy because that
that Rory anecdote that you shared with me that's not
in your story about his hyper awareness and an investment
into F one and you know that was real to me.

Speaker 2 (36:04):
Yeah.

Speaker 1 (36:05):
Yeah, there wasn't room for this, but Rory's invested in
an F one team. He went to the race in
Austin somewhat recently and one of his takeaways was is
incredible how much the drivers give of themselves. They do
all this corporate entertaining, they do all these meeting greets
with fans. It's just so much of their workday is

(36:29):
interfacing with customers essentially. And and so Rory does have
a big picture of view. I said, well, that's what
you need to bring to the tour, right, because now
you guys own a piece of this business, you have
to grow the business. And he said he said, I said,
sounds easy, right, And he went haha ha ha ha,

(36:50):
like this big theatrical laugh, because it's like getting tour
players to buy into this even though they now own
a piece of the business. It's such a different men,
and so the tour has been trying to educate as
players about these equity grants. Every week they get an
email that has a link to a video that it's

(37:12):
an explainer, and then it has like this kind of
this PDF that explains it. There's been at least five
and one of the player directors four of these to
me and he's like, tell me what's in here? He
hasn't even looked at it. And so like I asked
Tom Hogy, you know, one of my favorite guys on
tours kind of this good old boys, like, can you
explain the equity?

Speaker 2 (37:31):
He's like, I have no idea. He's like, I don't
even care.

Speaker 1 (37:33):
He's like whatever, He's like, he's like, you just got
to play good and everything works out. Like okay, Well
that's Tom Hogy, who I love. But you know again,
So then I went to Luke List he's really smart,
went to Vanderbilt. You know, I think he has a
finance degree. I was like, Luke explained the equity to
Me's like, oh, I have no idea, haven't looked at
that stuff.

Speaker 2 (37:49):
It's like unbelievable.

Speaker 1 (37:50):
They are giving you a piece of the business and
all these guys are thinking about is just how to
make an eight footer, which on some level is probably
the right way.

Speaker 2 (37:58):
To approach it.

Speaker 1 (37:59):
But this notion that these players are going to buy
into this new structure, that they are owners, owner, operators
of the tour and they need to grow the pie
for each other and for their investors, that's a whole
different mentality shift. And someone like Rory sees it, and
you know, that's what he said, Like that's why he
played at Cognizant in Palm Beach. He's like, it's a

(38:21):
new sponsor. I want to support them. I now own
a piece of this business. Like, you know, that's pretty cool.
But how many guys are going to have that level
of buying That remains to be seen.

Speaker 4 (38:33):
And I gotta say, I mean, I love Rory, and
because he does, he does seem to be always trying
to do the right thing. He you know, whether you
agree or disagree or like or I do think that

(38:56):
he just continues to strike me as someone who actually
is trying to do the right thing. I don't think he's,
you know, focused on growing his own bank account. I
think he's actually trying to figure out a solution to
almost the detriment of his results or his own game,

(39:16):
and his and and and he subjects himself to all
this ridicule. I just I actually feel for him.

Speaker 1 (39:23):
Yeah, but it's but it's it's instructive that I agree
with what everything you said. But he also cut bait
on being part of the tour leadership.

Speaker 4 (39:32):
Well, I win you after you get Yes, I wrote
it by them because you get screwed. I mean, because
he was like, that's city. I mean, he you know,
I don't blame him. Yeah, that's how bad.

Speaker 1 (39:43):
That Monahan and and his cronies have screwed this whole
thing up. Like they lost Rory, who's your most passionate
advocate and your biggest star and a guy who does
have this larger perspective.

Speaker 2 (39:55):
And that's unbelievable.

Speaker 4 (39:59):
I go back, gallent All, I always go back. We've
had this conversation, We've talked this out before, you know,
And I just keep thinking that all of this is
a byproduct of the sport in general, in which you
have to be so focused on yourself to truly make

(40:22):
it on the tour. To be a successful professional golfer,
you have to be so focused on yourself from the
get from the from the the jump at this point,
so we're going to get you know, you can't be
this well rounded human being that's in for the greater good.

(40:43):
And I do think this also, you know, materializes in
moments like the Ryder Cup in which European stars are
so have so much an easier time bonding and gelling
and being selfless and giving themselves to this team concept
because culturally they have done that, you know, all the

(41:08):
way up you know. And again, if you know anything
about Ireland and Irish culture, people don't let people get
big heads over there. You're you, You get ridiculed. If
you try to have a big eeo and get ahead
of yourself, people are there to knock you back and
straighten you out and keep you keep you grounded. And
and that's certainly what comes across with all of those

(41:28):
Irish greats. Uh and and there's a lot of them
for a country of five and a half million that
that you know, that have that have gone on to
be great at the game of golf. But back to
my point, like that, that mentality and that and without
a player's union, that left golf vulnerable to this essentially
hostile takeover by by the Saudis and by this, you know,

(41:52):
this concept money dangling. You know, hey, look over here,
shiny pennies. Uh, I'm going, I'm out, I'm over. You know,
it didn't take long to literally, you know, poke holes
into the bottom of the boat of this of this
big ship. The tour got caught, didn't take meetings, underestimated

(42:13):
their competition through all this, as you point out in
this story, all these different little you know, what would
Arnold Palmer say, you know, who was the original guy
who you know made a break from the page? Do
you know what I mean? Like all of this, all
of this individualistic mentality in it for me and not
the greater good, not the long term, not the good
of the sport. Unless you actually get people willing to

(42:39):
put all of that individual mentality aside and you kind
of strip everything away, you're not going to fix this.
And I don't see that happening.

Speaker 2 (42:49):
That's a good point.

Speaker 1 (42:50):
I mean, that was something actually that Shawn ol Flaherty,
who McElroy's manager, said, I was like, how vulnerable was
golf as an institution a sport if you could just
rupt and blow up the entire thing with you know,
a couple of billion dollars, like, you know, it was
it just because the pg Tour had a monopoly on
big time golf for so long. Any business without competition

(43:13):
gets a little stale, and we saw that in the
PGA Tour. The TV product's been terrible, The social media
offerings from the tour have been terrible. It's the unimaginative format,
just one seventy two hole slog after another, going going
to mediocre golf courses.

Speaker 4 (43:31):
Feelings, Phil, Phil, Phil, Right, you know, all of all
of you you're saying is essentially what Phil was saying.
I know, and we know. And the truth is Phil
was actually in it for himself, for his own reasons,
trying to play it off like I'm actually fighting for
the greater good, which is such a crock of shit,

(43:52):
because we know he was right about We know the
real Phil. He was right about all of it. And
so you got to tip your cap to him for that.
And and and we as a breakout media company bumped
into a lot of the issues very you know, in
a small proportion. We'll get to that in a second,
but that was part of what our our ripe was

(44:13):
was like why are you being so controlling? Why aren't
you actually cultivating people coming in and trying to share
authentic and real story. He wanted a piece of his
own pie as a brand and and a marquee, you know,
player in the game as he was, you know, spading
out of his career. But you know what I'm saying
like that, that that's why we're here.

Speaker 1 (44:36):
I mean, the tour still today on April fifth, twenty
twenty four. If you do any kind of fun content
on social media from and you have any bit of
their live action, or even if you pull something off
of the telecast like it'll you'll you'll hear from the
tours lawyers and you'll have to take it down. And

(44:57):
like they should, they should lower the guardrails and say
lit and every creator, every fan, just have fun, do
whatever you want. Like, but they're still living in you know,
nineteen ninety from And I get it. They want to
protect their their partners who pay them all this money.
But it's at the detriment of the fan base and

(45:19):
interest in the sport and.

Speaker 4 (45:21):
The sponsors well yeah and so and the people who
spend the money and the fans.

Speaker 2 (45:28):
I know, like.

Speaker 1 (45:31):
It's just the whole sport needs a mentality shift and
you know, liv has tried to do that, like basically
they let the players do kind of whatever they want
out there. And you see, Bryson has a whole camera
crew for every practice round and for every every pro
am and they're always goofing off and doing stuff on
the range. Now it's suboptimal because Bryson is such a goofball.

(45:54):
He's not he's not really cool, and he's kind of
maybe the wrong guy to be leading this revolution, but
he's ring and.

Speaker 4 (46:03):
He has the opportunity to try.

Speaker 1 (46:06):
Yeah, exactly. But I mean, but we can talk about
this all day. The big question is what's going to happen?
Like how does this get fixed? And I asked everybody
the same question, like what is going to happen with
the framework agreement? And it was interesting because you know,
Peter Malnaughty. When I talked to him in at Cognizance,

(46:26):
he said, I'm confident that twelve months from now there
will be a deal that will be undergoing government scrutiny.
You know that we're going to get it done. And
then he flew out there on the tour jet with
all the other player directors and they met with Yasser
actually at Tiger's condo, which I thought was a detail
that nobody knew about. It was just a Tiger's condo,
which apparently in reredible.

Speaker 4 (46:47):
Reporting, by the way, and the detail you have in
your story of this whole scene is amazing.

Speaker 1 (46:51):
Yeah, I mean Tiger apparently Tiger's condo and albody has
like not a single bit of golf memorabilia, nothing about
his family. It's just it looks like an Airbnb rental.
It's this totally sterile place. Yeah, and they met with
you here and afterwards, you know, Manna, he told me,
I'm less confident. You know, the visions are not totally aligned.

(47:12):
Like he was impressed by Yasir and his warmth and
his humanity and the guy loves golf, and they had
nice conversations, but the vision of how to bring this
all together is.

Speaker 4 (47:21):
Yeah, sears warmth and humanity, which is just an amazing statement,
I know, right.

Speaker 2 (47:26):
I mean, he's a very charming guy.

Speaker 1 (47:28):
He's very polished, and they went in there thinking, you know,
he was going to be this this adversary, but you know,
I've been around him at these pro ams on live
and he's a great schmoozer. So they got to feel that,
but they he's also a cold blooded businessman and he
comes from this culture where you know, saving face is

(47:49):
a big deal. And people on Live have told me
like he was pissed off that the tour consummated this
deal with SSG and not the PIFF, like that was
an insult to him. Yeah, think yeah, And now he's
pissed and so he's driving a harder bargain. And also,
what's at stake here, and this is where it gets
super interesting, is if the Piff is going to invest

(48:14):
in PG tour enterprises, what are the terms? And John Henry,
who's the leader for SSG, he wants the PIFF to
come in because he sees them as the biggest threat
to the tour rightfully, if they keep taking their best
players and keep damaging the tour. And so he's been
pushing for that to get done, which is significant. But

(48:38):
the players, now, some of them on the board who
think of themselves as business experts, now they're saying, well,
if we sell more equity to the Piff, we're diluting ourselves.
And so now they're starting to think selfishly like I
don't know, I'm not sure we want these investors like
we've got this money from ss gee, now we've got

(49:01):
to give away another eleven and a half or another
you know, twenty three percent.

Speaker 2 (49:06):
To the to the piff. Then that's the.

Speaker 1 (49:09):
Our pie keeps shrinking. And so that's become a source
of tension.

Speaker 2 (49:15):
So you have the ego, you have the greed, you have.

Speaker 1 (49:21):
This sort of misalignment on what it should look like
because yes, her is a true believer in Team Golf,
and the guys on the tour are like, yeah, it's
not really our thing. So and how who gets who
gets to run this thing becomes really a big deal.
I mean the framew agreement. But y'all sere in charge

(49:44):
of the of you know, he's the chairman of the board.
Does a guy like John Henry or Arthur Blank want
to have him as their boss? You know there used
to being the baller slash shot callar. Now you've got
this guy running the show. And if you take a
cold analysis of Live, I mean from a business standpoint,

(50:05):
as of now, it's been a colossal failure. Right, They've
poured billions of dollars into this thing. Now if they
can sell the franchises, they can get it back. But
from an operational standpoint. Year to year, you know, they're
spending eight hundred million dollars a year to put this
thing on and their revenue is at best ten percent

(50:26):
of that.

Speaker 2 (50:27):
So the guys at SSGU who.

Speaker 1 (50:29):
Are these really serious businessmen and serious bean counters, are like,
we're gonna take these guys on as a partner, Like
they can't run their business. And so you've got this
culture class, You've got these warring values.

Speaker 2 (50:41):
You've got so.

Speaker 1 (50:44):
Everyone feels like the Framek agreement is just on a
knife's edge, and no one is confident it's going to
get done. There's a faction that want it to get done.
And you know, talking to other the people who are
on the board of directors for the PGA tour, they
feel like Tiger has his position has evolved. Where he
was anti piff kind of you know, because Tiger's tribal

(51:08):
and he's vindictive, right, but now it's now it's pragmatic,
like we got to fix this thing.

Speaker 2 (51:16):
We want to put on the best product. The tour
is withering.

Speaker 1 (51:20):
By definition, my legacy is going to be devalued if
the tour just sucks. And and so Tiger, from all
accounts has kind of shifted to willing to deal with
the piff, which is significant because he's the dominant personality
among the players, as we all know. But it's nobody

(51:41):
knows what's going to happen. I'm not sure even you
know you here and Jay no or John Henry, like,
it's it's just there's so there's so much to to
get through to get to a deal, so we all
want clarity. It's still elusive and it's probably not coming
anytime soon.

Speaker 4 (52:01):
Meanwhile, meanwhile, you know who has figured it out? Top
golf grass clippings WP nine goat Hill Park, Like, Meanwhile,
the game of golf, the actual you know, what's happening
for people who actually, you know, think golf is so

(52:22):
much more than just whatever this is all that we're
talking about. Yeah, it's just so much more interesting, vibrant, healthy, fun,
you know, and has such a bright future. I just
think time the sand in the hour glass, it's not unlimited.
And these guys are playing around and making a mockery

(52:46):
of the true investors in the game, which are the fans,
and they're losing them one time, and you know, and
we have kids, and none of them are watching TV.
They're all on YouTube, they're all on their iPads, they're
all on social media. And I'm telling you right now,

(53:07):
we the traditional purest golf fan are dying off one
at a time, and Tiger's legacy gets one day older
every day that goes by. And this they better all that,
you say, all those people, if they don't figure these
smart people who are very wealthy, if they don't focus

(53:29):
on the people who actually, you know, drive the boat,
it's all going to go down at the bottom of
the ocean.

Speaker 1 (53:39):
Yeah, I mean the TV ratings. I think there's a
straight line between following TV ratings and increased participation. Like
guys who maybe before we're sitting at home watching golf
on TV, They're like, I'm just going to go play.
I don't really care about this anymore.

Speaker 4 (53:55):
That's what I've done. I miss I miss I miss caring.
I actually miss caring. I love I love golf. I
loved professional golf. I do love. I love where women's
professional golf is going. I love where you know, amateur
golf is and going. I you know, I hope you

(54:16):
know looking forward to you know, we're covering positive the
Western intercollegiate. You know, I think there's gonna be some
really cool stuff that we have access to as viewers,
but it's not men's professional golf. I do look forward
to the Majors now I'm looking forward to the Masters.
I like a lot of players on both sides. Quite frankly,
I've gotten to know them, I've spent time. I think.

(54:38):
I think I'm probably a lot like a lot of
people where it's like, are you guys shitting me? Are
you guys not? Have you not figured this out yet?
Do something? Do anything other than point fingers, look confused,
turn on each other, you know, keep talking about how
something's come, something's coming. We're going to get figure you're

(55:00):
it out.

Speaker 1 (55:01):
I know, yeah, yeah, the Masters is a welcome respite,
but let's hope it's a transcendent one. And you know,
these next three months are important. The focus will be
on on the golf. Right, You've got Augusta, you have
the PGA. The US Open at Pinehurst is other than
Pebble Beach. You know, Pinehurst might be the best venue

(55:25):
just from a It's just it's just American golf, right,
It's this this temple of American golf, and and it's
such a.

Speaker 4 (55:33):
Wonderful time it's gonna still be that ongoing conversation of
where are the live players versus the PGA Tour players
and this you know, everyone act acted shocked. You know
that Phil and and Brooks and and and and you know,
Patrick Reid some of these other guys were in contention
last year as though just because they went over to

(55:53):
live they were somehow going to not be able to
play golf. Like I just you know, there's a chance
that a live player wins every one of the majors
this year and.

Speaker 1 (56:02):
Then what yeah, well I think that would actually be
helpful in getting a deal done, you know, just like
John Rahm going to live, I think makes it more
likely that the tour will bend and consummate some sort
of agreement with the.

Speaker 2 (56:20):
Piff they are bent. Oh yeah.

Speaker 1 (56:24):
I mean, if if you're a pg Tour loyalist and
you hate Live, you should probably root for the live
guys in the majors, because the more success they have,
I think more likely everyone says, Okay, we got to
fix this, But yeah, it's it's going to be interesting.
It is an unmistakable subplot. I mean, like for Rom
defending Masters Champion, that was a huge move on the

(56:47):
chess board for Live to sign him, but he hasn't.

Speaker 2 (56:50):
He hasn't won an event on Live this year. So
either that means two things.

Speaker 1 (56:55):
The standard of play on Live is higher than people think,
because we know John ram is a great golfer, has
been able to win one, or it's an indictment of Live.
Rom got the money and now he's like he's not
trying as hard.

Speaker 2 (57:06):
You know, it cuts them both ways.

Speaker 4 (57:07):
It might it's not an indictment on Live, it might
be an indictment on Rum. I mean the guy he's
now they have they're pregnant with their third child.

Speaker 2 (57:15):
I mean, you know, he's got a lot going on.

Speaker 4 (57:17):
It's a huge and.

Speaker 1 (57:19):
It's a huge change of the professional life. It's too
small a sample size. Like John ram is still a
great golfer, but there is pressure on.

Speaker 2 (57:25):
Him to deliver in the major.

Speaker 1 (57:26):
It's just like you know, Dustin has had great success
on Live, but he's just been laying eggs in the majors.
Like if he doesn't do something this year, he's completely
forgotten as a big time player.

Speaker 2 (57:38):
And you know, it's the.

Speaker 1 (57:39):
Same with with jocku Nieman, Like he he's been tearing
up on live, he's won in Australia, and he's had
good finishes around.

Speaker 2 (57:49):
The world and non live events.

Speaker 1 (57:52):
But if he's going to if he's going to be
considered one of the best players in the world, he's
got deliver in the major. So the majors pulsate with
that tension. As you mentioned earlier, they become more major like,
they have more meaning. And so let's see it like
these next three months are gonna tell us a lot.

Speaker 2 (58:10):
But it's also a.

Speaker 1 (58:13):
Throws into sharp relief that the events that matter are
not on the PGA Tour or on liv golf. There
are these other things, and that's another structural problem for
the game.

Speaker 2 (58:24):
So yeah, it's it's thank god the Masters is here.

Speaker 1 (58:28):
All these background issues will subside for at least four
days and we can just enjoy the competition.

Speaker 2 (58:33):
But then as soon as.

Speaker 1 (58:33):
It's over, who wins and who loses takes on different
shades of meaning. So uh, it's it's a fascinating moment.
I mean, and it's not it's just it's not done.
It's this is going to go on throughout twenty twenty
four and then either or either they will consummate an agreement.
They will find some bridges and some on ramps to

(58:54):
bring the players back, and then twenty five will be
this transitional year of hybrid turn ornaments and sponsors exemptions,
and it'll be interesting and messy, or the whole thing
blows up and then you Sare gets out his check
book and he signs a bunch of guys and the
twenty five season gets even more messy and intriguing. So
it's not done whatever. Twenty four, it's gonna keep going.

(59:18):
Twenty five is where the rubber is going to meet
the road one way or the other. So the end
is not nigh. I mean, there's still a lot for
us to go through as golf fans.

Speaker 4 (59:27):
In that scenario, the PGA Tour essentially becomes the corn
Ferry Tour, right Like, essentially that becomes that becomes the
only thing they have left they have what's left over.

Speaker 1 (59:40):
I mean, yeah, if if the spam agruement blows up
and Yahir puts all his chips in the mill of
table and he signs three or four more top players
off of the tour, however we define that, then yeah,
I mean the balance of power is shifted. Just from

(01:00:00):
when you look at there's different ways you can measure it. Obviously,
Live has two of the four reigning major champions right now.
They've got Ram and they've got Kopka. So but if
you just look at players who inspire passion, who moved
the needle on some way, you know, it's it's at
least equal, I would say. And if if LIV picks

(01:00:24):
off more guys, then the then the tour is really
really in trouble. That's that's where the pressure is to
get this deal done. But also you sear knows that.
So it's just so messy.

Speaker 4 (01:00:35):
You know, you talk about those TV contracts and and
and we you've also point out the Andy Gardner. Oh,
by the way, the lawsuit that he has going with uh,
you know, the piff you essentially stole his stolen his concept,
which you say was originally ported it reported like ten million,
and now that actually is more like almost five hundred million. Yeah.

Speaker 5 (01:00:59):
So Andy Gardner was he was the visionary of the
Premier Golf League and he's the one who got who
recruited the Saudis as investors.

Speaker 1 (01:01:10):
Him and his lieutenants brought the Saudis to the table
and they tried to they tried to forge to steal
the European tour that Monahan swooped in created a strategic alliance.
Like all these things happened, and the PGL went away,
and then some two of his top guys defected and
went to Live and very quickly Live came together and
their concept was cut and paste from the Premier Golf League.

(01:01:33):
I always wondered why Andy Gardner didn't sue, And what
turns out they've been having these negotiations for a long
time to reach a settlement. And the Times of London
reported earlier this year and they said the amount they
were seeking was more than ten million dollars. Well, I
talked to a Premier Golf League investors that yeah, it's
four hundred and seventy million. It's a lot more than

(01:01:54):
ten and so that becomes another line item for Live Golf,
Like that's another loss right.

Speaker 2 (01:01:59):
They're going to have to settle.

Speaker 1 (01:02:00):
That the case. There's no way they could win that case.
I mean, they so clearly took the PGL. Pgl's intellectual property.
So that's just another that's just another deficit on on
on the balance sheet, you know, and it's gonna be
a lot of money. I don't know, it's gonna be
four seventy, but it could be half that. And that's

(01:02:20):
real money that now Live Golf has to make up
in this whole thing.

Speaker 4 (01:02:24):
So I guess it's real money. When you're talking about
what the money they have and their resources, it's like
literally what I might have in my in my in
my pocket right now. I mean it might.

Speaker 1 (01:02:37):
All right, so this, let's transition this a little bit
and people may be wondering, you know why I wrote
the story for Bloomberg Business Weekend, not not Firepit collected
dot com. And we've been over the last three four, five,
six months sort of transitioning the business.

Speaker 4 (01:02:52):
Speaking of hemorrhaging and restructuring and trying to figure it out.

Speaker 1 (01:02:56):
Yeah, we've been a We've been a startup in a
very turbulent time for the media industry. You just look
at all the macro trends, you know, all the layoffs
at the New York Times and the Athletic and the
La Times and you can go on down the list.
I mean, it's a tough time to be in the
media business. And so we've stopped trying to be an

(01:03:17):
algorithm chasing media company pumping out a lot of content
because it's just very, very hard to monetize, and especially
you know, we've been talking off and on for two
years about going to substack and having a paywall for
all of our content. And the challenge is golf dot
Com and Golf dies dot com and no laying up
dot com and all these places, it's all free.

Speaker 2 (01:03:38):
They're giving it away, all for free.

Speaker 1 (01:03:40):
So it's tough sledding to to try and monetize the content.

Speaker 2 (01:03:45):
You have to you have to do it in other ways.

Speaker 4 (01:03:46):
But and they've built a sand base over time, and
rightfully so I mean that they have. They have established
brands and and they've done They've you know, they've put
in the work. There's no shortcuts to to fan base,
that's for sure.

Speaker 1 (01:03:59):
Yeah, it takes time, and you know, we're still sort
of only a couple of years into this journey.

Speaker 2 (01:04:03):
So how would you.

Speaker 1 (01:04:07):
Describe where we are at the fire pit right now, Matt?
For people who've been wondering in wonders we did this.
We haven't been podcasting as much, I haven't been writing
as much because it's just we're trying to reshape the business.

Speaker 4 (01:04:20):
Oh, I mean, I just I think we're we're back
to the screws and back to you know again. I
launched what was down Patrol Productions in February of twenty twenty,
a month before that was going to be a travel
lifestyle you know, Buddy's trip based production company, and that

(01:04:45):
was a month before COVID. That was bad timing. Which
then we we started talking about the idea of creating
a collective group of storytellers with you know, different silos,
different you know, different angles of attack on the game
of golf. And you know, we we grew that a

(01:05:08):
little drunk on actually your your fill you know globally
viral you know, news and book on on the energy
around all of that. That was that was exciting times
and it seemed like, oh wow, this is going to
be easy. Well it's actually not easy. I have been

(01:05:31):
humbled into, like, uh, a place in which I never
could have imagined. It's just, you know, startups, managing human beings.
Hiring is really fun. Letting people go is not. That's
that's brutal. We've lost a lot of you know, friendships,

(01:05:52):
and through it all, it's I've learned a lot about
who who real friends are. It's it's just the whole
thing has been been exhausting, but where we are now
seems to make a lot more sense. We're getting back
to and I think the marketplace is getting back to,

(01:06:14):
you know, celebrating buddies trips. You had two years of COVID,
then you had two years of full t sheets in
which marketing dollars went away and there was no money
actually being spent around the idea of trying to tell
people where to stay and play because everyone was already
staying and playing. So on the heels of all of

(01:06:36):
that and where we are now, we're getting back to.
You know, I am getting back to creating content and
that's my focus, telling stories and that's part in part
along the lines of the Lab podcast series, but also
travel Buddies trips and and and events. So you know,

(01:07:00):
been running the Uncle Tony Invitational. We have new partners
in the events business that we are going to announce
here in the next two weeks that we're very excited about.
We're going to have we have events on the books
for twenty twenty four and twenty twenty five already. They're
going to be built around access, experience, camaraderie, and competition.

(01:07:22):
Those are going to be the four pillars of what
we are going to be offering in what's going to
be called Bonfires. The you know, we went about this
in which let's create content and focus on content, and
someday we'll have events to put the you know, sort
of horse now back in front of the cart and say,
let's have events. Let's go to great destinations. Let's let's

(01:07:45):
create some access and experience that camaraderie and competition and
the partners we have in this are very exciting to me,
and I think it would be very exciting to our
fan base and our followers. And it's going to be
at places, you know, like Pasa Teampa, like Golden Gate Park,
like Gamble Sands, it's going to be goat Hill Park.

(01:08:09):
You know, we're going to be able to actually get
out there and get with the people who play the game,
who pay to play the game, and create some expiment
covering buddy strips and the best of Buddies trips and
the best alpha planners of those Buddies trips for the
last fifteen years. You know, have you know, did sixty

(01:08:31):
ambushes at Golf Digest in which I parachuted in and
sort of reported on why the trips I've been running
Uncle Tony Invitational for now over you know, ten twelve years,
and the partners we have in this endeavor have been
running you know trips and really you know, quality experiences

(01:08:51):
for almost ten years. So all of that is coming
and I think we're getting back to the basics, our roots,
and and we're getting back to our future, which is
exciting to me.

Speaker 1 (01:09:06):
Yeah, you know you mentioned Passe Tempo and Crazy Mountain
Ranch and Gamble Sands, like we've we've been already chronicling
what's happening at these places through like that what we
call in the dirt, like kind of those immersive video storytelling.

Speaker 2 (01:09:22):
Where we're these these they're building a.

Speaker 1 (01:09:25):
New golf course at Gamble Crazy Mountains of a brand
new build Core Crunshaw, they reshaped Golden Gate, like we're
kind of in the dirt from the beginning watching it happen.
And it's going to be neat to be able to
take people to play these courses. In case of Gamble,
you know, this fall, it'll be some of the first
people ever just to lay eyes on this new golf
course Pas Tempo all.

Speaker 2 (01:09:46):
Eighteen new Mackenzie Greens.

Speaker 1 (01:09:49):
Well we'll have some of the first access to that
golf course, and you and I will be there. The
vision is to have the architects and other other key
people will do a round table, you know, really bring
it to life, so the person who not all you
get to play the golf course, but you get to
have this whole cool experience with the people who behind it.
And I think that's really a fun part of it.

Speaker 4 (01:10:13):
Yeah. I mean, you know, I've always loved you know,
architecture and how architecture bleeds into the experience of the golf.
But there's always so much more than just that, right
than just the shot you might hit on that hole

(01:10:33):
or from that fair away or that finishing hole. It's
also about you know, what's happening off the course in
that area. It's you know, as you know with the
Uncle Tony's live music, dice tournaments, short courses, you know,
there's tournaments within the tournament, and then there's buddies trips

(01:10:55):
within the Buddy's trip itself. That is something that that
I've been chronicling and and learning from for a long time,
and I you know, should have done it sooner, but
I quite frankly we couldn't have, you know, given the
constraints of of a global pandemic, and then on the

(01:11:17):
heels of that, and then in the throes of trying
to manage this, you know, the the rise and fall
of a startup. I think that you know, and it's
all cliche. You learn more from your losses than your wins.
I think through this process with people like you and
and several others that you know that I know in

(01:11:38):
my life who have been guiding us through the tough times,
I think we've we've finally kind of cleared this the
smoke on the track and we we can get back
to you know, driving the car that that we love
to drive and h and an open road.

Speaker 2 (01:11:55):
Yeah.

Speaker 1 (01:11:56):
I mean one thing you said, like we kind of
the vision for the Firepit was like, let's let's build
something that we can just.

Speaker 2 (01:12:01):
Do what we love to do. And it turned out
like we went.

Speaker 1 (01:12:04):
We spent so much time building decks and on sales
calls and managing people.

Speaker 2 (01:12:11):
It was like it was.

Speaker 1 (01:12:12):
An incredible learning experience, but it got both of us
away from from the things that we actually love. Like,
you know, what I love doing is writing books. I've
got a couple of projects that I'm nursing slowly. I'm
working on a screenplay about kind of based off my
old story about Cameron, you know, Jose toa Jesus Rodriguez,

(01:12:32):
like one of the all time biggest underdogs in the
history of sports. That's been a really fun process. It's
it's interesting how these things kind of come full circle.
I mean, I started on the Golf Beat ninety four,
so this is like thirty years and the day to
day grind, the daily news breaks. I'm just I have trouble.

(01:12:55):
I'm just I just it's not how I want to
spend my my d winding years is you know, kind
of chronicling the ebbs and flows from a day to
day basis, Like I want to focus on these bigger projects.
We got a couple of docu series that we're excited about.
You and I'm Matt, that we're out, we're out shopping
to people, and so it just was kind of the
right moment to get away from writing news stories and

(01:13:18):
even tournament coverage. So it's yeah, it's just sort of
this natural evolution then gives both of us the space
to to focus on on the things that we're really
passionate about. It's I'm of course super here for and
excited about.

Speaker 4 (01:13:36):
Yeah, it's been a it's been rough. I mean, you know,
when Sam and you know, swim upstream, they have to
avoid a lot of pitfalls and grizzly bears and and
and all the trials and tribulations. You know, the exhaustion
that it takes to get back to the to the
spawning zone. But you know, once they get there, it's
it's a it's a very you know, a peaceful setting.

(01:13:57):
And I that's that's sort of where it feels like
for me, and I think you probably feel the same.
But yeah, the docuseriies concepts, the events, podcasting, telling quality stories,
architecture experiences, and the access that we can that we
can bring to you know, not only the people who

(01:14:19):
design the courses, but then musicians and special guests and
celebrities who love the game and love the places we're
going to take them. This is and then the content
that comes out of that, you know, instead of trying
to create content that ultimately leads to events, let's create
events that ultimately lead to quality content. That's that's where

(01:14:41):
this is all going. And always a pleasure to to
be on with you and to hear from you and
to get a better understanding of that point zero zero
whatever percent that you know, get paid to play the game.
What a mess, what a dumpster fire. I you know,
I still don't see how or why or when this

(01:15:05):
actually gets quote fixed. I'm rooting for it to be fixed,
you know. I I originally was rooting for the disruption
because I think that it needed an overhaul. But now
that we're here, it's like, oh wow, Now I kind
of hope that they get it sorted and soon, because

(01:15:25):
because I do see the impact of how a quality
men's professional game can can support the greater good of
a lot of different efforts, and there are a lot
of good people on both sides that are playing for
these two different teams, you know, and and so hopefully

(01:15:46):
it goes there. But in the meantime, I think, as
I've said before, it's for it's you know, we're recording
this on a Friday. It's going to be dropped on
the week of the first major of twenty twenty four.
I do love the Masters. I'm looking forward to it.
I also looking forward to the Goat Masters on Saturday
at Goathill Park. Been working hard on my game. We

(01:16:09):
are all our favorite golfers and looking forward to getting
back with you Abandon Dune's twenty fifth anniversary in May.
We'll be there and you'll be my partner. But I
also want to beat you.

Speaker 2 (01:16:22):
So weird.

Speaker 1 (01:16:24):
Matt and I have like a thirty plus year running
grudge match, and if you total the tens of thousands
of holes we've played against each other, I mean one
of us is probably one up.

Speaker 2 (01:16:37):
Like it's insane.

Speaker 4 (01:16:38):
I think we're actually yeah, if it's somebody's up to me.
But I think if we ask Kevin Price, who's witnessed
most of those rounds and has kept a tabulation of
hole by hole, I think he'd probably say we are
all square. But I and you are one of my
main motivations to my now nine lessons with Will Crop

(01:16:59):
at Goathill Park, So thank you for that. You're my
you know, competition pre eje excellents.

Speaker 2 (01:17:04):
I gotta, I gotta, I gotta tune up. But anyway,
this was good fun. Go to Firepit Collected dot com.

Speaker 1 (01:17:12):
Check out the lab series we're talking about at the
beginning of this. Check out this Business Week story. I
think it'll be edifying for a lot of fans who
have kind of followed this, we will be back with
cool stuff.

Speaker 2 (01:17:23):
After the Masters will announce the events.

Speaker 1 (01:17:26):
You're definitely gonna want to get to Gamble and PASA
and Crazy Mountains and some of these other Some of
these other events are gonna be super cool at.

Speaker 4 (01:17:34):
Gohill Park, Golden Golden Gate Park will awesome. We're gonna
run the gamut of yeah, of what the venues will
be and the experiences you can have at each one.
Each one will have its own personality and.

Speaker 1 (01:17:47):
Yeah, and Wronghorn, I mean that's that's place I've always
wanted to get to.

Speaker 2 (01:17:51):
I'm excited about that one.

Speaker 1 (01:17:52):
Like there's so this can be fun and we're just
building this like I think twenty twenty twenty five is
going to be tremendous. So anyway, thanks as always for listening.

Speaker 2 (01:18:03):
We appreciate you sickos who have stayed till the very end.

Speaker 1 (01:18:07):
You know, you're you're the This is why we do
this stuff. It's uh, Matt and I enjoy it. But
it's all about kind of connecting with the fans out there.
Unlike the PGA Tour, We're still in touch with the fans.
We still care about the fans and you guys mean
a lot to us, So thanks for going on this journey,
thanks for listening to this podcast, and for now that's
a fire drill for Matt Janella. I'm Alan Shipnek, thanks

(01:18:29):
for listening.

Speaker 4 (01:18:30):
And oh I step on eat your famous perfect It's
a metaphor I did want to just say. Also, we
are fans of Griffin House, who sings the song here
for this podcast, which you'll hear now.

Speaker 3 (01:18:51):
I'm being big and I played the wind, made a
fortune when my ship game and.

Speaker 4 (01:19:00):
On the table.

Speaker 6 (01:19:00):
Never thought I could fall down. The winter time hit
me like a cannon in the ball and now I
can't shake this losing streak. Every road I take is
a dead end street.

Speaker 3 (01:19:17):
I got thoughts in my head, can't get them out,
trying not to think what I'm thinking about.

Speaker 4 (01:19:25):
I've gotten thoughts in my head.

Speaker 3 (01:19:27):
I can't get them out, trying not to think what
I'm thinking about.