August 22, 2023 • 43 mins
Host Bryan Ford is joined by award winning author and pastry chef Zoë François. Zoë is the author of Zoë Bakes Cakes, co-author of the best-selling Artisan Bread in Five Minutes a Day series and is working on her 10th cookbook, Zoë Bakes Cookies. She is the host of Zoë Bakes on the Magnolia Network, and her work has been featured in many publications, including the New York Times, Washington Post, Better Homes & Gardens and more. Less known about Zoë is that she grew up in communes and cults, which is where today’s recipe comes from— Aunt Melissa’s granola.
Watch Bryan make his version and Subscribe: Youtube
Recipe from today's episode can be found at Shondaland.com
Join The Flaky Biscuit Community: Discord
Zoë IG: @zoebakes and zoebakes.com
Bryan Ford IG: @artisanbryan
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Episode Transcript
Available transcripts are automatically generated. Complete accuracy is not guaranteed.
Speaker 1 (00:00):
Flaky Biscuit is a production of Shondaland Audio in partnership
with iHeartRadio. Welcome to Flaky Biscuit, where each episode we're
cooking up delicious morsels of nostalgia. You already not a
name of a game, meals and recipes that have comforted
and guided our guests to success. That means each episode,
(00:24):
come on, fam, you already know that I'm creating a
recipe from scratch and I'm hand delivering it, cooking or
baking it for my guests. Recipes that I hope that
you all are making at home. Remember to get on
the discord, check the recipes out, make it along with us.
Tell me what I could have done better. If y'all
are just tuning in and you have no idea who
I am or why I'm talking to you, my name
is Brian Ford. You might know me as Arson Brian.
(00:46):
I write cookbooks, do some stuff on TV as well,
but most importantly I like to cook and bake for people.
And today, Sam, today is a very very very special
day because I have a really good friend in here
in my kitchen, in the flesh. She's an incredibly talented
pastry chef, one of the best of all time, if
not the best of all time. Author of best selling cookbooks,
(01:09):
several cookbooks. I just wrote my second cookbook and I'm
like tapped out. But she's just like, what are you
on Cookbook ten twenty thirty? Who even knows? Star of
Zoe Bakes on Magnolia Network. If you haven't seen it,
you already know keeep it because she's cooking up delicious
stuff in her kitchen. And on top of that, she's
one of the best people I've ever met. Please welcome
today to Flaky Biscuit Zoe flancois.
Speaker 2 (01:32):
Thank you so much, so fun to be here.
Speaker 1 (01:36):
Yeah, I mean, listen, you know, we've known each other
for quite a bit of time. We both have shows
on Magnolia Network, which I think strengthened our bond. I
met your mom at the Silos, which I wanted to
kick our conversation off with that at a celebration for
all of the talent for Magnolia Network. So the Silos
is the place in Waco where Magnollia Networks is headquartered.
(01:57):
I guess I met your mom there and she was
very very interesting. Why was your mom you in there?
Speaker 2 (02:03):
She was my plus one? Yeah, I mean, I adore
my mom. She's you know, I grew up a lot
with just her and me, and I admire her more
than just about anybody. I mean my dad too. But
she was a super powerful woman in my life. So
I thought i'd share that experience with her, and I'm
(02:24):
so glad I did.
Speaker 1 (02:25):
Yeah. I mean, she looked like she was having a blast.
She was definitely real. She was partying.
Speaker 2 (02:31):
Yeah. I think she pitched like four or five different
shows for hers, for.
Speaker 1 (02:37):
Her shows for herself. Yeah, like for her to start
in the show. Who did you pitch them to anybody?
Speaker 2 (02:45):
And they were interested?
Speaker 1 (02:46):
Oh? Man? How did we actually meet? Did we meet
just because I followed you because you had a bunch
of followers and you baked pretty things? Is that pretty
much how it went down?
Speaker 2 (02:54):
I think what we for sure became Instagram friends first.
Speaker 1 (03:00):
I know what happened. My book came out, my first book,
and you made the pecan probably monkey.
Speaker 2 (03:04):
By, Yes, I sure did. It was delicious.
Speaker 1 (03:07):
Do you remember your feedback to me, I'll never forget it.
I'll never forget it. Well, no, it was. It was positive,
but it was about the probably, the probably in having
to be tempted to.
Speaker 2 (03:19):
Oh did I get all technical?
Speaker 1 (03:21):
Oh yeah, this is what this is like. Before we
really knew each other, you were like, what temp does
the probably go to? And I was like, I don't know.
Speaker 2 (03:30):
So I've watched you a little bit today and your
your process, like the whole thing is making more sense
to me.
Speaker 1 (03:39):
Getting thrown under the bus here she's referring to the
first part of what we do here at Flaky Biscuit
is we talk about this nostalgic meal that I prepare
for my guests, but before we talk about Brian Ford's
preparation of it, I want to learn all about what
this meal means. When did you first have it? Just
then and the other. So you're chomping at the bit
(04:01):
to just like talk about what I did.
Speaker 2 (04:03):
No, no, no, no, But that's I feel like that's the
grand finale.
Speaker 1 (04:09):
I'll tell you what. I can't wait till you taste it. No,
but listen, what did I make for you?
Speaker 2 (04:13):
You made my aunt Melissa's granola. I think it's the
first recipe that I remember, mostly the smell of it
as a little little kid, maybe two. We lived on
a commune in Vermont, so she would make this in
just massive quantities, not only to feed the people that
(04:36):
were living on the commune, which could range from anywhere
from a dozen people to fifty or more. You know,
it was a very sort of nomadic situation, people coming
and going, and she would just bake huge quantities of
it to feed the people on the commune, but then
also to sell.
Speaker 1 (04:56):
So it was like a granola hustle.
Speaker 2 (04:57):
Granola and bread hus okay all the time. Yeah, but
this granola, I think the smell of it is the
thing that just brings me back. I lost my aunt
in my twenties, and I didn't have the recipe. I
asked some people about it who live there, and so
(05:18):
I had like the core of it, very much like you,
she did not.
Speaker 1 (05:23):
Measure shots are being fired shots.
Speaker 2 (05:28):
This is a compliment because she did that too. And
I mean, that's the beauty of granola is that it's inexpensive,
which had to be. It's adaptable so that you can,
you know, sort of make it your own or whatever
you happen to have on hand.
Speaker 1 (05:45):
That is quite the experience you're basically saying it was.
The smell is what really captured your I can't untill
we dive in because I know the smells that were
happening in here, and I'm not quite sure you got
brought back. But you know, let's backtrack for just a second.
I mean, because we're talking about granola, Like, what exactly
is granola? So, according to Merriam Webster's Dictionary, because that's
(06:07):
where we get our facts from, granola's a mixture of
rolled oats. Rolled oats is the backbone of granola.
Speaker 2 (06:14):
Would say that, Yeah, yeah, sure.
Speaker 1 (06:17):
So rolled oats and various added ingredients such as brown sugar, raisins, coconut,
and nuts. That is eaten especially for breakfasts or as
a snack. Not to be confused with Wesley. What I say, Wesley? So,
(06:40):
first of all, do you agree with that definition? Second
of all, what is musley?
Speaker 2 (06:44):
Okay? So I do agree with the definition of granola.
The backbone is also oats. The thing about granola is
that you bake it so that you're cooking the oats
with musli their raw. You soak them. You would oak
it overnight in water. Seems a little bit sad. Milk
(07:07):
typically cream. If it was my mom, she would use
half and half.
Speaker 1 (07:12):
Wow. So a couple fun facts about granola because you
know here at flakey biscuit. We love fun facts. And
when I say here at flakey Biscuit, I mean bridget
loves fun facts. Our creative producer. Let me know that
you can trace breakfast cereal back to the ancient Greeks.
Apparently in eighteen sixty three, doctor James Caleb Jackson, he
(07:34):
believed illness was rooted in the stomach and began experimenting
with cold cereal in New York. Did you know that? Yeah,
oh you did, because you're looking at me like you're
ready to like finish the fact. You know.
Speaker 2 (07:46):
I am from Minneapolis, the home of many, many cereals,
and so this is something that we talk about a lot.
Speaker 1 (07:55):
I think it's just such a foundational It's simple. You
make it in a big batch, you use ingredients from
the earth.
Speaker 2 (08:02):
When I was growing up, everything was very healthy. My
childhood was filled with a whole lot of stuff that
tasted very good for you. But this recipe uses maple
syrup and honey because that's what we had. We tapped
our trees and made maple syrup. My dad kept bees
(08:24):
to make the honey, so that's what we had, and
so that's what we used. Honey and maple syrup are
amazing and lend themselves very well to this recipe. One
of the beautiful things about something like granola is that
you can adapt it to whatever you have. You have
honey grape, you have maple syrup, terrific, brown cher is
going to make it even better, you know. So it's
(08:46):
just one of those recipes that whatever you happen to
have in the kitchen that day can go in there.
Speaker 1 (08:52):
So, okay, back to your Omelissa's recipe. I want to
you know, the specific taste, smells sense. How was it
different than let's say, something you would get in the store.
Speaker 2 (09:03):
Just the smell of the things coming out of the oven.
That is the thing that I hope someday my kids
say about all of my baking, is how they feel
when something like that comes out of the oven. Yeah,
anytime you make something at home, you have control over
(09:25):
the ingredients. You don't have to use preservatives, it doesn't
have to have shelf life, and the textures are always
always right, well, not always.
Speaker 1 (09:34):
Not always, not all. Have you been able to recreate this?
I mean, obviously it's in one of your cookbooks and
it's on your Instagram, it's published. Do you think it's
how your aunt used to make it.
Speaker 2 (09:46):
I thought it was because you know, I made it
probably fifty times before I landed on this one. And
when I bake this particular recipe, it hit me like
a ton of I was just like right back there
with her in the commune, like I felt it.
Speaker 1 (10:08):
Oh wow.
Speaker 2 (10:08):
And then I sent them to my dad and he
obviously wasn't there when it was baking it, but he
ate it and said, yeah, this is it. I mean,
you have to also understand that these are forty fifty
year old memories. But I don't think it matters. I
think it's the feeling, you know what I mean. I
it's delicious.
Speaker 1 (10:27):
Well, I'm glad you were able to create the proofst
effect for yourself. I think it's time for us to
go on this journey where I present to you. Okay,
as you said, you wanted to make eye contact looking
you while I presented this granola tease. Those are your words. Yes,
We're going to do our live tasting here on flaky biscuit.
(10:48):
I've got some dried fruit, I've got some yogurt, and
I've got the grola.
Speaker 2 (10:52):
Oh right, all the components do it? There we go
well look at that.
Speaker 1 (10:56):
Please feel free, Zoe. I know we're friends, but I
would like you to say exactly what you're thinking right now.
Speaker 2 (11:04):
Okay, Well, I'm thinking there was less stirring going on
in the process and less measuring.
Speaker 1 (11:11):
Then less measuring or no measuring.
Speaker 2 (11:16):
No measuring happened in this experiment, which is not necessarily
a bad thing, because you got a lot more of
that honey maple syrup solution all over this, and so
you're going to get that caramelization really quickly. But what
happened is you got that caramelization really quickly, and you
(11:36):
were not near.
Speaker 1 (11:37):
The oven and you smelled it. So let me as
Zoe cracks up laughing here analyzing what to do with
what I've presented to Earth, there are bits.
Speaker 2 (11:47):
And pieces in here that are going to be so.
Speaker 1 (11:52):
Okay to my listeners. Right now. If you're driving to
work or doing something where you don't have a visual,
make sure you get home, get on that discord. Check
out the pictures we're gonna put up there. Check our socials.
Check out Shondaland dot com for the recipe. Because Zoe's
looking at some very very let's just call it deeply
caramelized it. Yeah, think about it like pizza. Think about
(12:14):
it like a Nepolitan style wood fired pizza. And that's
the type of granola I made. Let me quickly walk
you through what I did. So Zoe provided the recipe,
which was already a flex. Here's my nostalgic neil and
here's the perfect recipe I've tested for ten years. So
I was like, oh damn, all right, longer, I ultimate
(12:37):
flex is happening here. I was like, all right, well,
you know, I'm gonna step up to the play. I've
never made granola once in my entire life. I looked
at the ingredients and the instructions. I didn't weigh anything.
I followed the instructions. I think the oven was too hot,
and I started doing other things while I should have
been watching the oven.
Speaker 2 (12:54):
Had this not taken on this black betina, yeah, it
would be delicious, It really would.
Speaker 1 (13:07):
I'm gonna try it as well. Oh oh hold up, right,
hold up?
Speaker 2 (13:12):
Yeah, it's really good and it's super crunchy. I know
you were worried about the crunch if you Yeah, if
you just stirred it.
Speaker 1 (13:21):
If I had just followed the one instruction given, we
kind of.
Speaker 2 (13:24):
Like it when granola has these big chunks, you know
what I mean.
Speaker 1 (13:27):
I think our listeners now need to know something that
they probably ascertained from the very moment we started this episode.
But was I able to bring you.
Speaker 2 (13:36):
Back uh somewhere. I will never forget this moment. This
moment is seared in my head forever. Yeah, I'm not
sure this is any longer Melissa's granola, This is Brian,
(14:00):
this is okay.
Speaker 1 (14:02):
You know here at Flake, you biscuit. We really try
to bring our guests back to that nostalgic moment, but
it's also okay when it doesn't happen. Although we did
manage to transport Zoe somewhere.
Speaker 2 (14:13):
I loved it. I absolutely loved it, and I loved
watching you do it.
Speaker 1 (14:16):
Let's just briefly touch on that real quick, Like I
picked you up from the airport, I brought you over here.
While we're setting up. As we walked in, I was like,
oh shit, I didn't make the granola yet. So you
got to actually watch me and take some behind the
scenes videos. Listeners at home, make sure you check the
socials because these videos are actually kind of funny, and
follow along the recipe and we'll see who can really
(14:37):
make Melissa's on Melissa's granola at home. I can't wait
to see how many people will make it. But transitioning
away from this very beautiful granola that I made for
you today.
Speaker 2 (14:46):
I can't stop eating it.
Speaker 1 (14:47):
By the way, you know, I'm an say, I kind
of noticed that you just you are taking bite after
bye bye, after a bite. I'm just saying, it's on camera.
Don't go anywhere. We'll be right back after this. Welcome
(15:13):
back to Flaky Biscuit. Talk to me about Okay, So
you know you went from this commune into a professional
chef's life. It's quite the journey. How did this granola
kind of help shape your mind as a pastry chef?
Speaker 2 (15:33):
Yeah? I think I didn't know that it did until
way long that those moments were having such an impact
on me. I mean, we grew all of our own food.
Like I said, we had bees for honey. Many many
years later, I sort of understood how lucky I was
(15:55):
to have had that foundation of understanding where comes from
and understanding freshness of food, and so that all played
a role much later. The very first thing was when
I went to kindergarten and discovered what was in other
people's lunchboxes, and I was mad as hell because I'd
(16:18):
grown up with granola and raisins being candy, and all
of a sudden, I'm introduced to Twinkies and like, yeah,
there's like sugar in the world. And I was obsessed.
So I started making cookies and which turned into a
cookie company in college, and then I rolled that into
culinary school. So it was you know, I think because
(16:38):
I was denied all of that as a small kid,
that it like I wanted it more. And then if
I wanted it, I had to do it myself because
nobody else was baking in my house other than Melissa
the commune. So if I wanted cookies, I had to
make them.
Speaker 1 (16:57):
And did they approve of what you started making?
Speaker 2 (16:59):
Oh, I would say hard, No, they do now they
do now, for sure, for sure, But back then, no
sugar was definitely a taboo. I have come to learn
from some of my mom's friends I'm gonna throw under
the bus that she too had a twinkie fetish that
(17:23):
I did not know about.
Speaker 1 (17:24):
Oh, like there was like under the.
Speaker 2 (17:27):
Twinkies in the world. Yeah, So that's what happens when
you live on a commune and you don't have these things, Yeah,
you know, you find ways.
Speaker 1 (17:36):
I feel like there's and I know nothing about communes,
and I don't think a lot of people really do,
so I think it's very interesting to hear these tidbits,
especially about food. Yeah right, we're talking about ingredients being natural. Yeah,
processed sugar and additives not being normal. Which it's like, oh, well,
that makes more sense than what we're doing. Well.
Speaker 2 (17:56):
I mean, the whole premise of the commune was off
the land, and so we were a self contained community,
and so everything we had was right there. We got
our water from a spring. We'd bring jugs down to
a spring and get the water. No electricity, no running
water in the house. I mean, it was pretty basic.
(18:20):
I love indoor plumbing. I have no interest in going
back to that, but I have such an appreciation for
it now, which I spent much of my life denying that.
And I think my food journey was very much that
way too, where I sort of rebelled against all the
(18:42):
things that we were doing on the commune and went
as far away from it as possible. And as I
get older and once I became a parent, I actually
did the exact same thing to my children. I did
not give them sugar until they went off to school.
Speaker 1 (18:58):
Oh wow, yeah, school like kindergartener. Yeah yeah, yeah, five
years old times. So when you said you moved as
far as away, you meant physically too, right. You went
to Europe, you went and trained, and.
Speaker 2 (19:14):
No, I trained, but not in Europe.
Speaker 1 (19:17):
Yeah.
Speaker 2 (19:17):
I mean. I went to art school first, and I
always knew that the artists were my people, but I
could never figure out what my medium was. And then
once I discovered that it was sugar basically, then I
went to culinary school because I finally figured out what
my art was and that I wanted it to be
(19:39):
about food. I went first to a community school and
then to the CIA, and then I left the CIA
to go work with Andrew Zimmern. Within a week of
working together, we were just amazing friends, lifelong friends, and
so I really lucked out, and I would say much
of my career has been lucking out and meeting incredible people.
Speaker 1 (20:03):
Yeah, honestly, I'm like realizing how you went to the CIA,
and this is the granola I presented to you. I
didn't go to culinary school, you know. I went to
the kind of like the old school, just like yo,
figure it out type thing. So, but I think what
has drawn many people to your work, including myself, and
you know, if you just take like your social media channels,
(20:24):
it's this very vibrant, perfect environment. It's funny now because
I didn't really know this about you, this the sugar thing.
And now when I think back to looking at your
content and your work and your books, I'm like, oh,
this makes sense. Like there's this obsession with sugar and flamethrowers.
Speaker 2 (20:44):
Yes, I love it.
Speaker 1 (20:46):
So sugar granola, We love you, guys. We give them
a rest. I'm very curious to know more about your
husband and.
Speaker 2 (20:54):
How your I did not see that coming.
Speaker 1 (20:58):
That was like the current ball. I need to know
more about your husband now. Yeah, Like we've talked before,
and you've made some social media posts before about you know,
being in an interracial marriage and the types of things
you have to kind of consider when you go through that.
Speaker 2 (21:16):
We met I grew up. My mom owns a dance studio,
and I grew up dancing and I met him. I
was dancing at a nightclub and he was djaying, and
he called me into the DJ and asked me out.
I said no because I thought he was super young.
And then I went home and my roommate turns out
she knew him and said, you have to go out
(21:37):
with him, and I did, and that was thirty six
years ago. We've been together ever since.
Speaker 1 (21:43):
Wow, that's a success story. Yeah.
Speaker 2 (21:46):
Meeting on the dance floor, just a little.
Speaker 1 (21:48):
Night out dancing and meeting my future life partner, no
big deal. Does he like sweets?
Speaker 2 (21:53):
Yes? He eats everything that I make. He's my best critic.
It was actually his idea that I go to culinary
school because I was working at an ad agency. Coming
home to say that I was miserable would be an understatement.
I would bake all night long to like release the stress,
and he said, why don't you just do this? And
(22:16):
so I did. I went to culinary school. So it
was really his prompting, Wow, do.
Speaker 1 (22:22):
You think he's honest?
Speaker 2 (22:23):
When he absolutely yes, you have clearly never met the man.
Speaker 1 (22:27):
No, I'm not. Actually, so he eat something he doesn't like,
He's just like, oh, yes, this is terrible.
Speaker 2 (22:32):
I think his tell is you've made this better before
you know, So it's sort of comment yeah, but then
it's followed up and I have my sons are this
way too. I've taught them all to be critics but
nice about it. They didn't used to be that.
Speaker 1 (22:54):
Nice about it.
Speaker 2 (22:56):
And my husband and my youngest child are both super tasters,
so they taste things that I can't even like, really
subtle things about sweetness or spices, or they can call
them out and talk about them. It's amazing.
Speaker 1 (23:14):
Super tasters a thing.
Speaker 2 (23:15):
Yeah, it's a real like they have really heightened taste buds,
you know, like when somebody's tasting wine and they're describing
all of these really subtle differences in wines and sometimes
I catch it, sometimes I don't, and they are just
all over it.
Speaker 1 (23:32):
Wow.
Speaker 2 (23:32):
It's very interesting and very helpful.
Speaker 1 (23:34):
So you have kids, right I do, Charlie and Henry.
I know you've done a couple baking series with your sons.
I think, right, yes, And that was not part of
any of the TV st No, No, this.
Speaker 2 (23:45):
Was during the pandemic. I started doing Instagram lives and
my sons would help me with that and it was amazing.
I loved it because it was a time to connect
with them. But we were in the kitchen and yeah,
it was really fun.
Speaker 1 (24:00):
So during the pandemic, you were connecting with your kids
this way, But you were in Minneapolis, Minneapolis which got
a lot of attention during that time because of the
civil unrest effort George Floyd's murder. How did you feel
at the time as a mother, as someone in an
interracial factly because we were all going through things in
different parts of the country when this was occurring, but
(24:22):
you were there, what was your experience with that?
Speaker 2 (24:24):
It was such a crazy time Generally personally, it was
crazy because there was a lot of fear around. My
boys were in their twenties and out in the world
as brown young men. It's such an interesting experience to
(24:47):
be a mother in that situation and have my experience
in it and then talk to them or talk to
my husband about what their experience is. Because I'm a
white woman and my movement in the world is very
different than any of theirs.
Speaker 1 (25:08):
On the commune where there are black people, not a lot.
Speaker 2 (25:12):
You have to understand that. So I've lived in several
communes and cults. The one in Vermont No, because Vermont,
i think, is, if not the whitest state in the country.
Speaker 1 (25:26):
One of the whitest hashtag Vermont.
Speaker 2 (25:28):
So no the claim to fame on the with my
dad on the commune was that Bernie Sanders came to
the commune and my dad kicked him off for not
working hard. Some of the communes and the cults that
I lived in California were much more diverse. Yeah, and
(25:49):
in Pennsylvania in Philadelphia.
Speaker 1 (25:52):
What is the difference between a cult and a commune?
Speaker 2 (25:56):
Yeah, a commune, You'll have to get your websters, but
a commune is a community of people that are all
living together with a sort of a common mission. A
cult is typically there's either a guru or a religiosity
(26:20):
about it. It's a more spiritual endeavor. A commune isn't
necessarily spiritual.
Speaker 1 (26:28):
What do you prefer?
Speaker 2 (26:30):
Well, because I had such intense experiences, I would say
my preference is the commune. The religious, not organized religion.
It was more sort of Eastern mysticism and stuff. But
there was some hypocrisy in how all of that went.
Speaker 1 (26:53):
Down, right, give me an example of the hypocrisy.
Speaker 2 (26:56):
Okay, well, there are many, but I would say a
food related one is that for most of the month
we would eat a macrobiotic diet, which is very clean
and healthy, and then one weekend a month there would
be basically bacchanalia. It was like drinking and drugs and
(27:19):
sugar and smoking and all the things.
Speaker 1 (27:22):
Was it restricted to like adults or just like everyone
just got to do whatever they want?
Speaker 2 (27:27):
Well, I mean, I would say it was meant for
the adults because the children were for sure an afterthought,
does this podcast come with a therapist?
Speaker 1 (27:41):
You can? We could squeeze that into the budget. That's hilarious.
Speaker 2 (27:45):
So for sure all of the activities were meant for adults.
I mean because we meditated every day, we did yoga
way before it was cool. So for the most part,
it was a very healthy way to live. But then
all the shit just broke loose on the one weekend
(28:07):
a month because I think they knew it wasn't sustainable
for people to live that clean, right right right, So yeah,
cheap days. And as a small child, it's so interesting
because you see it all for what it is. The
adults saw it for what they wanted it to be,
but us children saw just the black and white of
(28:30):
what was happening. And this doesn't make sense with what
you're saying. So it's so interesting because it was my
childhood and so it just seemed normal, like I didn't
realize that growing up in a cult wasn't like most
people do not have that experience because the cults that
(28:52):
you hear about, it's because usually something negative has happened
and that's how they get into the news cycle. But
a cult is not inherently a bad thing. It's just
bad things happen in some cults, right, you know what
I mean?
Speaker 1 (29:08):
I do know exactly what you mean, but I mean
that's life, though. Yeah, there's good situations where that things
will occur. Hungry for more flaky biscuit Stay tuned, Hey
(29:37):
Brian again, let's get back into it. When you raise
your kids, raising your kids, like, do you utilize these
tools or ways of life from your upbringing? Do you
utilize that kind of mentality?
Speaker 2 (29:54):
I grew up in a very sort of macro environment.
It was like the whole world was around me. I
raised my children in a very micro environment. It was
just my little family, and I never moved with them.
I grew up going to sixteen different schools, and I
(30:17):
wanted them to have the experience of having childhood friends
and a childhood home. They can't wait to get out
of there. So I think that some of the things
that I thought were reactions to my childhood were maybe
(30:38):
just innate in me. And I'm watching that with my boys,
that they innately just want to get out and travel
and roam, and maybe raising them in a commune and
traveling and bringing them to sixteen different schools would have
suited them just fine. Everybody's so individual. But no, I reacted,
(31:01):
and when I had children, I had my little family
in a little house and kept them in one town.
Now they seem to be raising themselves. But we'll see
how they felt about it.
Speaker 1 (31:16):
Yeah, I bet they will look back and definitely appreciate that,
because even outside of the commune cult thing, there's a
lot of people out there that don't have that one home,
that one school. There's a lot of factors in life
that can kind of like bust that up. And I
think when they look back, they're going to be like, oh, man,
I'm so glad my mom went out of her way
to make sure that we have this like beautiful, stable,
(31:38):
little family unit.
Speaker 2 (31:40):
Like you describe my pastry as perfect, I'm not sure
how perfect any of this really is.
Speaker 1 (31:45):
Well, compared to Brian Ford's granola, I'd have to say that.
Speaker 2 (31:51):
That's French it's very French.
Speaker 1 (31:54):
I'm glad that we're laughing in because now it is
time to play our Flaky game episode on Flaky Biscuit,
we have some fun with our guests. Okay, so let
me explain this game. I've got some of the most
commercially available granola bars. Like when I was growing up,
(32:14):
these were always in our house. You know what I'm saying.
We have food stands and like you know, my dad
would just like buy like eight boxes this for no reason.
Nobody would eat it. Yeah.
Speaker 2 (32:25):
Oh, so you're about to feed me something you'd never eat.
Speaker 1 (32:28):
I would eat it. Okay. Now I'm just saying as
a kid, some of them would be like I'd rather
eat some skittles, you know what I'm saying, because we
had massive sugar growing up. By the way, all right,
so i want you to taste these, and I want
I want to see if you can tell which brand
it is. If you want, I can show you the
four brands.
Speaker 2 (32:45):
Now, okay, let's see if I can do.
Speaker 1 (32:48):
You want to do it blind? Yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah.
Speaker 2 (32:50):
I want to try it blind and then I might
need some hints.
Speaker 1 (32:52):
Okay, fine, let's start there. All right. So I've got four.
All right, yep, I'm going to feed you one. These
are all brands that everyone should know. Here's number one.
I'd like you to tell me describe the texture, taste, sounds,
and then give me your best educated guess. Okay, all right,
here we go.
Speaker 2 (33:07):
Okay, it's sticky.
Speaker 1 (33:09):
It's sticky.
Speaker 2 (33:09):
It's sticky. There's some kind of like filling in there. Okay,
mm hmm. There's a lot of corn syrup than corn
starch because it's got like some gelatinousnessness.
Speaker 1 (33:24):
I'm gonna taste it too, just to make sure.
Speaker 2 (33:26):
No, I don't know, I've got inspiration from a lot
of places. I'm not sure I need to recreate that.
Speaker 1 (33:35):
You know what it tastes like to me? It tastes
like cough syrup.
Speaker 2 (33:38):
It does have a bit of that like chemical aftertaste.
But then there's the texture, like if you shut your
eyes and you have that like sort of gelatinous cough syrup.
How is that even remotely related to granola?
Speaker 1 (33:57):
To be fair, I think this is more of like
a breakfast bar, like a brand bar. It's right next
to all the granola barst.
Speaker 2 (34:05):
It's granola adjacent.
Speaker 1 (34:07):
Okay, so can let me just say, growing up, growing up,
how I grew up to me? That was granola.
Speaker 2 (34:12):
Oh no, wonder this was such a surprise.
Speaker 1 (34:15):
Okay, okay, this was neutral grain.
Speaker 2 (34:18):
Oh sorry, it's okay.
Speaker 1 (34:20):
Listen, we're Shondaland and Zoe and Brian have to accept
that we are not getting any granola sponsorships anytime soon. Okay,
here's number two. I splos.
Speaker 2 (34:31):
Okay, this one feels more like granola, like it's pressed together.
It has a really nice crunch.
Speaker 1 (34:42):
Good.
Speaker 2 (34:42):
I'll give it that. It tastes sweet, but I can't.
I'm not a super taster.
Speaker 1 (34:48):
Remember, so you don't know what it is?
Speaker 2 (34:52):
Yeah, I mean I.
Speaker 1 (34:54):
Like this one. This is what is that? This is
Nature's Valley, Nature's Valley, Nature's Valley Green packet. Have you
you ever had this before? Yeah?
Speaker 2 (35:01):
And honey? Okay, so that's what it tastes.
Speaker 1 (35:04):
Yes, Okay, good.
Speaker 2 (35:05):
The honey is subtle, like you use some crazy, beautiful, dark,
gorgeous honey. That's not what's in that book. That's all
I'm gonna say.
Speaker 1 (35:18):
Oh, all right, we're going to do one more. I
had a few more, but I think we're going to
spare these brands and also try to salvage some kind
of deal for ourselves one day. Here's the last one, Okay.
I also definitely I grew up on these.
Speaker 2 (35:33):
Okay, hmm, okay, Well this is like hmmm, I don't
know what that is. That has like almost like, oh,
what is it? It tastes like because it has almost
like a honeycomb like crunch to it. Like the other
one just felt like oats and let me go. The
(35:58):
research is amazing.
Speaker 1 (36:02):
Let me tell you something. What. So the last one
was yeah, quaker chewy bar.
Speaker 2 (36:06):
Okay, does it have some puffed something?
Speaker 1 (36:09):
It does? It has well? Unfortunately, the ingredients this is
extremely long. Oh oh there's a brown rice crisp.
Speaker 2 (36:15):
That's that texture that you're getting. Yeah, which I didn't dislike.
I was just surprised.
Speaker 1 (36:21):
Wow, which one did you like the best out of
the three that you sampled?
Speaker 2 (36:25):
Okay, So, given that this is about granola, I would
say the second one, the crunchy granola, that was granola.
Speaker 1 (36:34):
It was more reminiscent.
Speaker 2 (36:35):
Yeah, I didn't find that. It was like like when
I bite into yours, I taste the nuts, I taste
the seeds, I taste the honey, I taste the maple yum,
and that one it just tastes like vaguely sweet.
Speaker 1 (36:47):
Yeah.
Speaker 2 (36:48):
And there's crunch.
Speaker 1 (36:49):
Yeah, but I don't and cough syrup No no, no, that
was oh Zorry. Honestly, you are truly a culinary inspiration.
And I think that it's really important for Flaky Biscuit
to understand what you do, not just for yourself, your career,
and your family, but what you do for your community
(37:09):
or communities around the world. And I understand that you've
been doing fundraisers for World Central Kitchen. Disasters happen all
over the world. You know, from New Orleans, you know
what I mean. Yeah, in case anyone out there doesn't
know New Orleans we get hit by hurricanes. Yeah. And
I think it's really really great that you support and
work with World Central Kitchen to feed people. How did
(37:31):
you get involved with this and how can other people
get involved with this?
Speaker 2 (37:34):
Well, it's a great organization because they can mobilize and
touch down within a day of a disaster happening, whereas
I can't. You know, I'm me in my kitchen in Minneapolis.
I think the greater strength that I have is being
able to share what I love to do with people
(37:56):
in order to raise money to do it. So I
typically will do that by teaching a class and inviting
people to the class and raising money that way. And
we did one for when the war in Ukraine started,
and within twenty four hours we'd raised thirty three thousand dollars.
(38:17):
I couldn't do that on my own right, But when
we get our community together, we can do amazing things
to help these people who are on the ground cooking
the food. And I think that people who go into
the food world go into that industry want to feed people.
(38:41):
That is the core of why we do this. So
it just feels right. I mean, I remember again after
George Floyd was murdered and Bakers Against Racism sprung up.
I was so proud of the baking community. It was
a mobilization of bakers coming together to do something that
(39:06):
gave the rest of us a way to to contribute.
Speaker 1 (39:11):
Yeah, because I think as bakers, especially during the pandemic
when everyone's kind of locked down, but bakeries and bakers
were able to have this kind of like no contact
pop up style or bake sale where you know, it's
not like a sit down restaurant where people need to
come and eat and for those that are not familiar,
Bakers Against Racism was founded at a time where the
(39:32):
civil unrest has become so much and we're all just
kind of sitting around. It's kind of like what what
are we going to do about this? And I'm right
there with you. When I saw this, I was like, wow,
was it like the biggest bake sale ever? I mean
bakers all over the country.
Speaker 2 (39:50):
I think world, I think it when internationally.
Speaker 1 (39:55):
I'm starting to get like I'm like sitting here like yo,
like let's mobilize, like right from.
Speaker 2 (39:59):
Me, the sale was again a.
Speaker 1 (40:02):
Class started from some granola, right, you had some granola
and Vermont and all of a sudden you're making a
difference in the Ukraine. You're making a difference with regards
to combating racism. Maybe it doesn't seem that way. I mean,
trust me, I watch your posts and all that kind
of thing. Like I remember when you raise all that
money it was like a cake class, right or something
like that. You've done it a few times, so I'm
(40:24):
really really thankful that you have shared all of this
with us for our listeners, don't forget to check out
World Central Kitchen, donate, volunteer, I think it's WCK dot org.
And you know, since we talked about it, Bakers against Racism,
get on the social channels and check out the next
bake sale that's getting mobilized to combat systemic racism and
(40:44):
oppression that we deal with in this country. Zoe, I
really thank you for bringing light to this, so thank
you anyway, and I also thank you for coming to
my kitchen and having my granola. We really love having
you off Flake.
Speaker 2 (40:56):
You guys love it. I loved being able to talk
with you like this and to watch you in the kitchen.
This was such a treat.
Speaker 1 (41:04):
Trial and tribulations of the simplest recipe I've ever made.
Speaker 2 (41:07):
Shit.
Speaker 1 (41:10):
Thank you so much, Zoe. It was a pleasure.
Speaker 2 (41:12):
This is amazing.
Speaker 1 (41:14):
We'll talk again soon. Hi, y'all, thank you so much
for listening to today's episode. You can find the recipe
for Aunt Melissa's granola on Shondaland dot com or in
Zoe's cookbook Artisan Bread in five Minutes a Day. Y'all,
I want to know how it goes as usual. Make
(41:34):
sure you're making these recipes. Tag Me at Artists and Brian,
tag Zoe at Zoe Bakes, and of course Shondaland, post
your photos, get into discord, let's chat about it. Tell
me how you did You know what I'm saying. Make
sure you don't burn your granola. Make sure you're stirring
your granola. You already know what it is. Don't forget
to check out World's Central Kitchen. You can find them
(41:55):
at WCK dot org. All the websites and social handles
I've mentioned are in the show notes for this episode.
Fam If you like Flaky Biscuit, which me I would
assume you do, because who doesn't like Flakey Biscuit, you
know what to do. Leave us a rate, a review.
Make sure the world knows that this is the best
food podcast of all time. Share, subscribe, like, follow, Make
(42:19):
sure you tell everyone you know that Flakey Biscuit is
the way to go. Flakey Biscuit is executive produced by
Sandy Bailey, alex Alja, Lauren Homan, Tyler Klang, and Gabrielle Collins.
Our creative producer is Bridget Kenna, and our editor and
producer is Nicholas Harder. With music by Crucial. Recipes from
(42:42):
Flaky Biscuit can be found each week on Shondaland dot com.
Subscribe to the Shondaland YouTube channel for more Flaky Biscuit content.
Flakey Biscuit is a production of Shondaland Audio in partnership
with iHeartRadio. For more podcasts from Shondaland Audio, visit the
heart Radio app, Apple Podcasts, or wherever you listen to
(43:03):
your favorite shows.
Flaky Biscuit is a production of Shondaland Audio in partnership
with iHeartRadio. Welcome to Flaky Biscuit, where each episode we're
cooking up delicious morsels of nostalgia. You already not a
name of a game, meals and recipes that have comforted
and guided our guests to success. That means each episode,
(00:24):
come on, fam, you already know that I'm creating a
recipe from scratch and I'm hand delivering it, cooking or
baking it for my guests. Recipes that I hope that
you all are making at home. Remember to get on
the discord, check the recipes out, make it along with us.
Tell me what I could have done better. If y'all
are just tuning in and you have no idea who
I am or why I'm talking to you, my name
is Brian Ford. You might know me as Arson Brian.
(00:46):
I write cookbooks, do some stuff on TV as well,
but most importantly I like to cook and bake for people.
And today, Sam, today is a very very very special
day because I have a really good friend in here
in my kitchen, in the flesh. She's an incredibly talented
pastry chef, one of the best of all time, if
not the best of all time. Author of best selling cookbooks,
(01:09):
several cookbooks. I just wrote my second cookbook and I'm
like tapped out. But she's just like, what are you
on Cookbook ten twenty thirty? Who even knows? Star of
Zoe Bakes on Magnolia Network. If you haven't seen it,
you already know keeep it because she's cooking up delicious
stuff in her kitchen. And on top of that, she's
one of the best people I've ever met. Please welcome
today to Flaky Biscuit Zoe flancois.
Speaker 2 (01:32):
Thank you so much, so fun to be here.
Speaker 1 (01:36):
Yeah, I mean, listen, you know, we've known each other
for quite a bit of time. We both have shows
on Magnolia Network, which I think strengthened our bond. I
met your mom at the Silos, which I wanted to
kick our conversation off with that at a celebration for
all of the talent for Magnolia Network. So the Silos
is the place in Waco where Magnollia Networks is headquartered.
(01:57):
I guess I met your mom there and she was
very very interesting. Why was your mom you in there?
Speaker 2 (02:03):
She was my plus one? Yeah, I mean, I adore
my mom. She's you know, I grew up a lot
with just her and me, and I admire her more
than just about anybody. I mean my dad too. But
she was a super powerful woman in my life. So
I thought i'd share that experience with her, and I'm
(02:24):
so glad I did.
Speaker 1 (02:25):
Yeah. I mean, she looked like she was having a blast.
She was definitely real. She was partying.
Speaker 2 (02:31):
Yeah. I think she pitched like four or five different
shows for hers, for.
Speaker 1 (02:37):
Her shows for herself. Yeah, like for her to start
in the show. Who did you pitch them to anybody?
Speaker 2 (02:45):
And they were interested?
Speaker 1 (02:46):
Oh? Man? How did we actually meet? Did we meet
just because I followed you because you had a bunch
of followers and you baked pretty things? Is that pretty
much how it went down?
Speaker 2 (02:54):
I think what we for sure became Instagram friends first.
Speaker 1 (03:00):
I know what happened. My book came out, my first book,
and you made the pecan probably monkey.
Speaker 2 (03:04):
By, Yes, I sure did. It was delicious.
Speaker 1 (03:07):
Do you remember your feedback to me, I'll never forget it.
I'll never forget it. Well, no, it was. It was positive,
but it was about the probably, the probably in having
to be tempted to.
Speaker 2 (03:19):
Oh did I get all technical?
Speaker 1 (03:21):
Oh yeah, this is what this is like. Before we
really knew each other, you were like, what temp does
the probably go to? And I was like, I don't know.
Speaker 2 (03:30):
So I've watched you a little bit today and your
your process, like the whole thing is making more sense
to me.
Speaker 1 (03:39):
Getting thrown under the bus here she's referring to the
first part of what we do here at Flaky Biscuit
is we talk about this nostalgic meal that I prepare
for my guests, but before we talk about Brian Ford's
preparation of it, I want to learn all about what
this meal means. When did you first have it? Just
then and the other. So you're chomping at the bit
(04:01):
to just like talk about what I did.
Speaker 2 (04:03):
No, no, no, no, But that's I feel like that's the
grand finale.
Speaker 1 (04:09):
I'll tell you what. I can't wait till you taste it. No,
but listen, what did I make for you?
Speaker 2 (04:13):
You made my aunt Melissa's granola. I think it's the
first recipe that I remember, mostly the smell of it
as a little little kid, maybe two. We lived on
a commune in Vermont, so she would make this in
just massive quantities, not only to feed the people that
(04:36):
were living on the commune, which could range from anywhere
from a dozen people to fifty or more. You know,
it was a very sort of nomadic situation, people coming
and going, and she would just bake huge quantities of
it to feed the people on the commune, but then
also to sell.
Speaker 1 (04:56):
So it was like a granola hustle.
Speaker 2 (04:57):
Granola and bread hus okay all the time. Yeah, but
this granola, I think the smell of it is the
thing that just brings me back. I lost my aunt
in my twenties, and I didn't have the recipe. I
asked some people about it who live there, and so
(05:18):
I had like the core of it, very much like you,
she did not.
Speaker 1 (05:23):
Measure shots are being fired shots.
Speaker 2 (05:28):
This is a compliment because she did that too. And
I mean, that's the beauty of granola is that it's inexpensive,
which had to be. It's adaptable so that you can,
you know, sort of make it your own or whatever
you happen to have on hand.
Speaker 1 (05:45):
That is quite the experience you're basically saying it was.
The smell is what really captured your I can't untill
we dive in because I know the smells that were
happening in here, and I'm not quite sure you got
brought back. But you know, let's backtrack for just a second.
I mean, because we're talking about granola, Like, what exactly
is granola? So, according to Merriam Webster's Dictionary, because that's
(06:07):
where we get our facts from, granola's a mixture of
rolled oats. Rolled oats is the backbone of granola.
Speaker 2 (06:14):
Would say that, Yeah, yeah, sure.
Speaker 1 (06:17):
So rolled oats and various added ingredients such as brown sugar, raisins, coconut,
and nuts. That is eaten especially for breakfasts or as
a snack. Not to be confused with Wesley. What I say, Wesley? So,
(06:40):
first of all, do you agree with that definition? Second
of all, what is musley?
Speaker 2 (06:44):
Okay? So I do agree with the definition of granola.
The backbone is also oats. The thing about granola is
that you bake it so that you're cooking the oats
with musli their raw. You soak them. You would oak
it overnight in water. Seems a little bit sad. Milk
(07:07):
typically cream. If it was my mom, she would use
half and half.
Speaker 1 (07:12):
Wow. So a couple fun facts about granola because you
know here at flakey biscuit. We love fun facts. And
when I say here at flakey Biscuit, I mean bridget
loves fun facts. Our creative producer. Let me know that
you can trace breakfast cereal back to the ancient Greeks.
Apparently in eighteen sixty three, doctor James Caleb Jackson, he
(07:34):
believed illness was rooted in the stomach and began experimenting
with cold cereal in New York. Did you know that? Yeah,
oh you did, because you're looking at me like you're
ready to like finish the fact. You know.
Speaker 2 (07:46):
I am from Minneapolis, the home of many, many cereals,
and so this is something that we talk about a lot.
Speaker 1 (07:55):
I think it's just such a foundational It's simple. You
make it in a big batch, you use ingredients from
the earth.
Speaker 2 (08:02):
When I was growing up, everything was very healthy. My
childhood was filled with a whole lot of stuff that
tasted very good for you. But this recipe uses maple
syrup and honey because that's what we had. We tapped
our trees and made maple syrup. My dad kept bees
(08:24):
to make the honey, so that's what we had, and
so that's what we used. Honey and maple syrup are
amazing and lend themselves very well to this recipe. One
of the beautiful things about something like granola is that
you can adapt it to whatever you have. You have
honey grape, you have maple syrup, terrific, brown cher is
going to make it even better, you know. So it's
(08:46):
just one of those recipes that whatever you happen to
have in the kitchen that day can go in there.
Speaker 1 (08:52):
So, okay, back to your Omelissa's recipe. I want to
you know, the specific taste, smells sense. How was it
different than let's say, something you would get in the store.
Speaker 2 (09:03):
Just the smell of the things coming out of the oven.
That is the thing that I hope someday my kids
say about all of my baking, is how they feel
when something like that comes out of the oven. Yeah,
anytime you make something at home, you have control over
(09:25):
the ingredients. You don't have to use preservatives, it doesn't
have to have shelf life, and the textures are always
always right, well, not always.
Speaker 1 (09:34):
Not always, not all. Have you been able to recreate this?
I mean, obviously it's in one of your cookbooks and
it's on your Instagram, it's published. Do you think it's
how your aunt used to make it.
Speaker 2 (09:46):
I thought it was because you know, I made it
probably fifty times before I landed on this one. And
when I bake this particular recipe, it hit me like
a ton of I was just like right back there
with her in the commune, like I felt it.
Speaker 1 (10:08):
Oh wow.
Speaker 2 (10:08):
And then I sent them to my dad and he
obviously wasn't there when it was baking it, but he
ate it and said, yeah, this is it. I mean,
you have to also understand that these are forty fifty
year old memories. But I don't think it matters. I
think it's the feeling, you know what I mean. I
it's delicious.
Speaker 1 (10:27):
Well, I'm glad you were able to create the proofst
effect for yourself. I think it's time for us to
go on this journey where I present to you. Okay,
as you said, you wanted to make eye contact looking
you while I presented this granola tease. Those are your words. Yes,
We're going to do our live tasting here on flaky biscuit.
(10:48):
I've got some dried fruit, I've got some yogurt, and
I've got the grola.
Speaker 2 (10:52):
Oh right, all the components do it? There we go
well look at that.
Speaker 1 (10:56):
Please feel free, Zoe. I know we're friends, but I
would like you to say exactly what you're thinking right now.
Speaker 2 (11:04):
Okay, Well, I'm thinking there was less stirring going on
in the process and less measuring.
Speaker 1 (11:11):
Then less measuring or no measuring.
Speaker 2 (11:16):
No measuring happened in this experiment, which is not necessarily
a bad thing, because you got a lot more of
that honey maple syrup solution all over this, and so
you're going to get that caramelization really quickly. But what
happened is you got that caramelization really quickly, and you
(11:36):
were not near.
Speaker 1 (11:37):
The oven and you smelled it. So let me as
Zoe cracks up laughing here analyzing what to do with
what I've presented to Earth, there are bits.
Speaker 2 (11:47):
And pieces in here that are going to be so.
Speaker 1 (11:52):
Okay to my listeners. Right now. If you're driving to
work or doing something where you don't have a visual,
make sure you get home, get on that discord. Check
out the pictures we're gonna put up there. Check our socials.
Check out Shondaland dot com for the recipe. Because Zoe's
looking at some very very let's just call it deeply
caramelized it. Yeah, think about it like pizza. Think about
(12:14):
it like a Nepolitan style wood fired pizza. And that's
the type of granola I made. Let me quickly walk
you through what I did. So Zoe provided the recipe,
which was already a flex. Here's my nostalgic neil and
here's the perfect recipe I've tested for ten years. So
I was like, oh damn, all right, longer, I ultimate
(12:37):
flex is happening here. I was like, all right, well,
you know, I'm gonna step up to the play. I've
never made granola once in my entire life. I looked
at the ingredients and the instructions. I didn't weigh anything.
I followed the instructions. I think the oven was too hot,
and I started doing other things while I should have
been watching the oven.
Speaker 2 (12:54):
Had this not taken on this black betina, yeah, it
would be delicious, It really would.
Speaker 1 (13:07):
I'm gonna try it as well. Oh oh hold up, right,
hold up?
Speaker 2 (13:12):
Yeah, it's really good and it's super crunchy. I know
you were worried about the crunch if you Yeah, if
you just stirred it.
Speaker 1 (13:21):
If I had just followed the one instruction given, we
kind of.
Speaker 2 (13:24):
Like it when granola has these big chunks, you know
what I mean.
Speaker 1 (13:27):
I think our listeners now need to know something that
they probably ascertained from the very moment we started this episode.
But was I able to bring you.
Speaker 2 (13:36):
Back uh somewhere. I will never forget this moment. This
moment is seared in my head forever. Yeah, I'm not
sure this is any longer Melissa's granola, This is Brian,
(14:00):
this is okay.
Speaker 1 (14:02):
You know here at Flake, you biscuit. We really try
to bring our guests back to that nostalgic moment, but
it's also okay when it doesn't happen. Although we did
manage to transport Zoe somewhere.
Speaker 2 (14:13):
I loved it. I absolutely loved it, and I loved
watching you do it.
Speaker 1 (14:16):
Let's just briefly touch on that real quick, Like I
picked you up from the airport, I brought you over here.
While we're setting up. As we walked in, I was like,
oh shit, I didn't make the granola yet. So you
got to actually watch me and take some behind the
scenes videos. Listeners at home, make sure you check the
socials because these videos are actually kind of funny, and
follow along the recipe and we'll see who can really
(14:37):
make Melissa's on Melissa's granola at home. I can't wait
to see how many people will make it. But transitioning
away from this very beautiful granola that I made for
you today.
Speaker 2 (14:46):
I can't stop eating it.
Speaker 1 (14:47):
By the way, you know, I'm an say, I kind
of noticed that you just you are taking bite after
bye bye, after a bite. I'm just saying, it's on camera.
Don't go anywhere. We'll be right back after this. Welcome
(15:13):
back to Flaky Biscuit. Talk to me about Okay, So
you know you went from this commune into a professional
chef's life. It's quite the journey. How did this granola
kind of help shape your mind as a pastry chef?
Speaker 2 (15:33):
Yeah? I think I didn't know that it did until
way long that those moments were having such an impact
on me. I mean, we grew all of our own food.
Like I said, we had bees for honey. Many many
years later, I sort of understood how lucky I was
(15:55):
to have had that foundation of understanding where comes from
and understanding freshness of food, and so that all played
a role much later. The very first thing was when
I went to kindergarten and discovered what was in other
people's lunchboxes, and I was mad as hell because I'd
(16:18):
grown up with granola and raisins being candy, and all
of a sudden, I'm introduced to Twinkies and like, yeah,
there's like sugar in the world. And I was obsessed.
So I started making cookies and which turned into a
cookie company in college, and then I rolled that into
culinary school. So it was you know, I think because
(16:38):
I was denied all of that as a small kid,
that it like I wanted it more. And then if
I wanted it, I had to do it myself because
nobody else was baking in my house other than Melissa
the commune. So if I wanted cookies, I had to
make them.
Speaker 1 (16:57):
And did they approve of what you started making?
Speaker 2 (16:59):
Oh, I would say hard, No, they do now they
do now, for sure, for sure, But back then, no
sugar was definitely a taboo. I have come to learn
from some of my mom's friends I'm gonna throw under
the bus that she too had a twinkie fetish that
(17:23):
I did not know about.
Speaker 1 (17:24):
Oh, like there was like under the.
Speaker 2 (17:27):
Twinkies in the world. Yeah, So that's what happens when
you live on a commune and you don't have these things, Yeah,
you know, you find ways.
Speaker 1 (17:36):
I feel like there's and I know nothing about communes,
and I don't think a lot of people really do,
so I think it's very interesting to hear these tidbits,
especially about food. Yeah right, we're talking about ingredients being natural. Yeah,
processed sugar and additives not being normal. Which it's like, oh, well,
that makes more sense than what we're doing. Well.
Speaker 2 (17:56):
I mean, the whole premise of the commune was off
the land, and so we were a self contained community,
and so everything we had was right there. We got
our water from a spring. We'd bring jugs down to
a spring and get the water. No electricity, no running
water in the house. I mean, it was pretty basic.
(18:20):
I love indoor plumbing. I have no interest in going
back to that, but I have such an appreciation for
it now, which I spent much of my life denying that.
And I think my food journey was very much that
way too, where I sort of rebelled against all the
(18:42):
things that we were doing on the commune and went
as far away from it as possible. And as I
get older and once I became a parent, I actually
did the exact same thing to my children. I did
not give them sugar until they went off to school.
Speaker 1 (18:58):
Oh wow, yeah, school like kindergartener. Yeah yeah, yeah, five
years old times. So when you said you moved as
far as away, you meant physically too, right. You went
to Europe, you went and trained, and.
Speaker 2 (19:14):
No, I trained, but not in Europe.
Speaker 1 (19:17):
Yeah.
Speaker 2 (19:17):
I mean. I went to art school first, and I
always knew that the artists were my people, but I
could never figure out what my medium was. And then
once I discovered that it was sugar basically, then I
went to culinary school because I finally figured out what
my art was and that I wanted it to be
(19:39):
about food. I went first to a community school and
then to the CIA, and then I left the CIA
to go work with Andrew Zimmern. Within a week of
working together, we were just amazing friends, lifelong friends, and
so I really lucked out, and I would say much
of my career has been lucking out and meeting incredible people.
Speaker 1 (20:03):
Yeah, honestly, I'm like realizing how you went to the CIA,
and this is the granola I presented to you. I
didn't go to culinary school, you know. I went to
the kind of like the old school, just like yo,
figure it out type thing. So, but I think what
has drawn many people to your work, including myself, and
you know, if you just take like your social media channels,
(20:24):
it's this very vibrant, perfect environment. It's funny now because
I didn't really know this about you, this the sugar thing.
And now when I think back to looking at your
content and your work and your books, I'm like, oh,
this makes sense. Like there's this obsession with sugar and flamethrowers.
Speaker 2 (20:44):
Yes, I love it.
Speaker 1 (20:46):
So sugar granola, We love you, guys. We give them
a rest. I'm very curious to know more about your
husband and.
Speaker 2 (20:54):
How your I did not see that coming.
Speaker 1 (20:58):
That was like the current ball. I need to know
more about your husband now. Yeah, Like we've talked before,
and you've made some social media posts before about you know,
being in an interracial marriage and the types of things
you have to kind of consider when you go through that.
Speaker 2 (21:16):
We met I grew up. My mom owns a dance studio,
and I grew up dancing and I met him. I
was dancing at a nightclub and he was djaying, and
he called me into the DJ and asked me out.
I said no because I thought he was super young.
And then I went home and my roommate turns out
she knew him and said, you have to go out
(21:37):
with him, and I did, and that was thirty six
years ago. We've been together ever since.
Speaker 1 (21:43):
Wow, that's a success story. Yeah.
Speaker 2 (21:46):
Meeting on the dance floor, just a little.
Speaker 1 (21:48):
Night out dancing and meeting my future life partner, no
big deal. Does he like sweets?
Speaker 2 (21:53):
Yes? He eats everything that I make. He's my best critic.
It was actually his idea that I go to culinary
school because I was working at an ad agency. Coming
home to say that I was miserable would be an understatement.
I would bake all night long to like release the stress,
and he said, why don't you just do this? And
(22:16):
so I did. I went to culinary school. So it
was really his prompting, Wow, do.
Speaker 1 (22:22):
You think he's honest?
Speaker 2 (22:23):
When he absolutely yes, you have clearly never met the man.
Speaker 1 (22:27):
No, I'm not. Actually, so he eat something he doesn't like,
He's just like, oh, yes, this is terrible.
Speaker 2 (22:32):
I think his tell is you've made this better before
you know, So it's sort of comment yeah, but then
it's followed up and I have my sons are this
way too. I've taught them all to be critics but
nice about it. They didn't used to be that.
Speaker 1 (22:54):
Nice about it.
Speaker 2 (22:56):
And my husband and my youngest child are both super tasters,
so they taste things that I can't even like, really
subtle things about sweetness or spices, or they can call
them out and talk about them. It's amazing.
Speaker 1 (23:14):
Super tasters a thing.
Speaker 2 (23:15):
Yeah, it's a real like they have really heightened taste buds,
you know, like when somebody's tasting wine and they're describing
all of these really subtle differences in wines and sometimes
I catch it, sometimes I don't, and they are just
all over it.
Speaker 1 (23:32):
Wow.
Speaker 2 (23:32):
It's very interesting and very helpful.
Speaker 1 (23:34):
So you have kids, right I do, Charlie and Henry.
I know you've done a couple baking series with your sons.
I think, right, yes, And that was not part of
any of the TV st No, No, this.
Speaker 2 (23:45):
Was during the pandemic. I started doing Instagram lives and
my sons would help me with that and it was amazing.
I loved it because it was a time to connect
with them. But we were in the kitchen and yeah,
it was really fun.
Speaker 1 (24:00):
So during the pandemic, you were connecting with your kids
this way, But you were in Minneapolis, Minneapolis which got
a lot of attention during that time because of the
civil unrest effort George Floyd's murder. How did you feel
at the time as a mother, as someone in an
interracial factly because we were all going through things in
different parts of the country when this was occurring, but
(24:22):
you were there, what was your experience with that?
Speaker 2 (24:24):
It was such a crazy time Generally personally, it was
crazy because there was a lot of fear around. My
boys were in their twenties and out in the world
as brown young men. It's such an interesting experience to
(24:47):
be a mother in that situation and have my experience
in it and then talk to them or talk to
my husband about what their experience is. Because I'm a
white woman and my movement in the world is very
different than any of theirs.
Speaker 1 (25:08):
On the commune where there are black people, not a lot.
Speaker 2 (25:12):
You have to understand that. So I've lived in several
communes and cults. The one in Vermont No, because Vermont,
i think, is, if not the whitest state in the country.
Speaker 1 (25:26):
One of the whitest hashtag Vermont.
Speaker 2 (25:28):
So no the claim to fame on the with my
dad on the commune was that Bernie Sanders came to
the commune and my dad kicked him off for not
working hard. Some of the communes and the cults that
I lived in California were much more diverse. Yeah, and
(25:49):
in Pennsylvania in Philadelphia.
Speaker 1 (25:52):
What is the difference between a cult and a commune?
Speaker 2 (25:56):
Yeah, a commune, You'll have to get your websters, but
a commune is a community of people that are all
living together with a sort of a common mission. A
cult is typically there's either a guru or a religiosity
(26:20):
about it. It's a more spiritual endeavor. A commune isn't
necessarily spiritual.
Speaker 1 (26:28):
What do you prefer?
Speaker 2 (26:30):
Well, because I had such intense experiences, I would say
my preference is the commune. The religious, not organized religion.
It was more sort of Eastern mysticism and stuff. But
there was some hypocrisy in how all of that went.
Speaker 1 (26:53):
Down, right, give me an example of the hypocrisy.
Speaker 2 (26:56):
Okay, well, there are many, but I would say a
food related one is that for most of the month
we would eat a macrobiotic diet, which is very clean
and healthy, and then one weekend a month there would
be basically bacchanalia. It was like drinking and drugs and
(27:19):
sugar and smoking and all the things.
Speaker 1 (27:22):
Was it restricted to like adults or just like everyone
just got to do whatever they want?
Speaker 2 (27:27):
Well, I mean, I would say it was meant for
the adults because the children were for sure an afterthought,
does this podcast come with a therapist?
Speaker 1 (27:41):
You can? We could squeeze that into the budget. That's hilarious.
Speaker 2 (27:45):
So for sure all of the activities were meant for adults.
I mean because we meditated every day, we did yoga
way before it was cool. So for the most part,
it was a very healthy way to live. But then
all the shit just broke loose on the one weekend
(28:07):
a month because I think they knew it wasn't sustainable
for people to live that clean, right right right, So yeah,
cheap days. And as a small child, it's so interesting
because you see it all for what it is. The
adults saw it for what they wanted it to be,
but us children saw just the black and white of
(28:30):
what was happening. And this doesn't make sense with what
you're saying. So it's so interesting because it was my
childhood and so it just seemed normal, like I didn't
realize that growing up in a cult wasn't like most
people do not have that experience because the cults that
(28:52):
you hear about, it's because usually something negative has happened
and that's how they get into the news cycle. But
a cult is not inherently a bad thing. It's just
bad things happen in some cults, right, you know what
I mean?
Speaker 1 (29:08):
I do know exactly what you mean, but I mean
that's life, though. Yeah, there's good situations where that things
will occur. Hungry for more flaky biscuit Stay tuned, Hey
(29:37):
Brian again, let's get back into it. When you raise
your kids, raising your kids, like, do you utilize these
tools or ways of life from your upbringing? Do you
utilize that kind of mentality?
Speaker 2 (29:54):
I grew up in a very sort of macro environment.
It was like the whole world was around me. I
raised my children in a very micro environment. It was
just my little family, and I never moved with them.
I grew up going to sixteen different schools, and I
(30:17):
wanted them to have the experience of having childhood friends
and a childhood home. They can't wait to get out
of there. So I think that some of the things
that I thought were reactions to my childhood were maybe
(30:38):
just innate in me. And I'm watching that with my boys,
that they innately just want to get out and travel
and roam, and maybe raising them in a commune and
traveling and bringing them to sixteen different schools would have
suited them just fine. Everybody's so individual. But no, I reacted,
(31:01):
and when I had children, I had my little family
in a little house and kept them in one town.
Now they seem to be raising themselves. But we'll see
how they felt about it.
Speaker 1 (31:16):
Yeah, I bet they will look back and definitely appreciate that,
because even outside of the commune cult thing, there's a
lot of people out there that don't have that one home,
that one school. There's a lot of factors in life
that can kind of like bust that up. And I
think when they look back, they're going to be like, oh, man,
I'm so glad my mom went out of her way
to make sure that we have this like beautiful, stable,
(31:38):
little family unit.
Speaker 2 (31:40):
Like you describe my pastry as perfect, I'm not sure
how perfect any of this really is.
Speaker 1 (31:45):
Well, compared to Brian Ford's granola, I'd have to say that.
Speaker 2 (31:51):
That's French it's very French.
Speaker 1 (31:54):
I'm glad that we're laughing in because now it is
time to play our Flaky game episode on Flaky Biscuit,
we have some fun with our guests. Okay, so let
me explain this game. I've got some of the most
commercially available granola bars. Like when I was growing up,
(32:14):
these were always in our house. You know what I'm saying.
We have food stands and like you know, my dad
would just like buy like eight boxes this for no reason.
Nobody would eat it. Yeah.
Speaker 2 (32:25):
Oh, so you're about to feed me something you'd never eat.
Speaker 1 (32:28):
I would eat it. Okay. Now I'm just saying as
a kid, some of them would be like I'd rather
eat some skittles, you know what I'm saying, because we
had massive sugar growing up. By the way, all right,
so i want you to taste these, and I want
I want to see if you can tell which brand
it is. If you want, I can show you the
four brands.
Speaker 2 (32:45):
Now, okay, let's see if I can do.
Speaker 1 (32:48):
You want to do it blind? Yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah.
Speaker 2 (32:50):
I want to try it blind and then I might
need some hints.
Speaker 1 (32:52):
Okay, fine, let's start there. All right. So I've got four.
All right, yep, I'm going to feed you one. These
are all brands that everyone should know. Here's number one.
I'd like you to tell me describe the texture, taste, sounds,
and then give me your best educated guess. Okay, all right,
here we go.
Speaker 2 (33:07):
Okay, it's sticky.
Speaker 1 (33:09):
It's sticky.
Speaker 2 (33:09):
It's sticky. There's some kind of like filling in there. Okay,
mm hmm. There's a lot of corn syrup than corn
starch because it's got like some gelatinousnessness.
Speaker 1 (33:24):
I'm gonna taste it too, just to make sure.
Speaker 2 (33:26):
No, I don't know, I've got inspiration from a lot
of places. I'm not sure I need to recreate that.
Speaker 1 (33:35):
You know what it tastes like to me? It tastes
like cough syrup.
Speaker 2 (33:38):
It does have a bit of that like chemical aftertaste.
But then there's the texture, like if you shut your
eyes and you have that like sort of gelatinous cough syrup.
How is that even remotely related to granola?
Speaker 1 (33:57):
To be fair, I think this is more of like
a breakfast bar, like a brand bar. It's right next
to all the granola barst.
Speaker 2 (34:05):
It's granola adjacent.
Speaker 1 (34:07):
Okay, so can let me just say, growing up, growing up,
how I grew up to me? That was granola.
Speaker 2 (34:12):
Oh no, wonder this was such a surprise.
Speaker 1 (34:15):
Okay, okay, this was neutral grain.
Speaker 2 (34:18):
Oh sorry, it's okay.
Speaker 1 (34:20):
Listen, we're Shondaland and Zoe and Brian have to accept
that we are not getting any granola sponsorships anytime soon. Okay,
here's number two. I splos.
Speaker 2 (34:31):
Okay, this one feels more like granola, like it's pressed together.
It has a really nice crunch.
Speaker 1 (34:42):
Good.
Speaker 2 (34:42):
I'll give it that. It tastes sweet, but I can't.
I'm not a super taster.
Speaker 1 (34:48):
Remember, so you don't know what it is?
Speaker 2 (34:52):
Yeah, I mean I.
Speaker 1 (34:54):
Like this one. This is what is that? This is
Nature's Valley, Nature's Valley, Nature's Valley Green packet. Have you
you ever had this before? Yeah?
Speaker 2 (35:01):
And honey? Okay, so that's what it tastes.
Speaker 1 (35:04):
Yes, Okay, good.
Speaker 2 (35:05):
The honey is subtle, like you use some crazy, beautiful, dark,
gorgeous honey. That's not what's in that book. That's all
I'm gonna say.
Speaker 1 (35:18):
Oh, all right, we're going to do one more. I
had a few more, but I think we're going to
spare these brands and also try to salvage some kind
of deal for ourselves one day. Here's the last one, Okay.
I also definitely I grew up on these.
Speaker 2 (35:33):
Okay, hmm, okay, Well this is like hmmm, I don't
know what that is. That has like almost like, oh,
what is it? It tastes like because it has almost
like a honeycomb like crunch to it. Like the other
one just felt like oats and let me go. The
(35:58):
research is amazing.
Speaker 1 (36:02):
Let me tell you something. What. So the last one
was yeah, quaker chewy bar.
Speaker 2 (36:06):
Okay, does it have some puffed something?
Speaker 1 (36:09):
It does? It has well? Unfortunately, the ingredients this is
extremely long. Oh oh there's a brown rice crisp.
Speaker 2 (36:15):
That's that texture that you're getting. Yeah, which I didn't dislike.
I was just surprised.
Speaker 1 (36:21):
Wow, which one did you like the best out of
the three that you sampled?
Speaker 2 (36:25):
Okay, So, given that this is about granola, I would
say the second one, the crunchy granola, that was granola.
Speaker 1 (36:34):
It was more reminiscent.
Speaker 2 (36:35):
Yeah, I didn't find that. It was like like when
I bite into yours, I taste the nuts, I taste
the seeds, I taste the honey, I taste the maple yum,
and that one it just tastes like vaguely sweet.
Speaker 1 (36:47):
Yeah.
Speaker 2 (36:48):
And there's crunch.
Speaker 1 (36:49):
Yeah, but I don't and cough syrup No no, no, that
was oh Zorry. Honestly, you are truly a culinary inspiration.
And I think that it's really important for Flaky Biscuit
to understand what you do, not just for yourself, your career,
and your family, but what you do for your community
(37:09):
or communities around the world. And I understand that you've
been doing fundraisers for World Central Kitchen. Disasters happen all
over the world. You know, from New Orleans, you know
what I mean. Yeah, in case anyone out there doesn't
know New Orleans we get hit by hurricanes. Yeah. And
I think it's really really great that you support and
work with World Central Kitchen to feed people. How did
(37:31):
you get involved with this and how can other people
get involved with this?
Speaker 2 (37:34):
Well, it's a great organization because they can mobilize and
touch down within a day of a disaster happening, whereas
I can't. You know, I'm me in my kitchen in Minneapolis.
I think the greater strength that I have is being
able to share what I love to do with people
(37:56):
in order to raise money to do it. So I
typically will do that by teaching a class and inviting
people to the class and raising money that way. And
we did one for when the war in Ukraine started,
and within twenty four hours we'd raised thirty three thousand dollars.
(38:17):
I couldn't do that on my own right, But when
we get our community together, we can do amazing things
to help these people who are on the ground cooking
the food. And I think that people who go into
the food world go into that industry want to feed people.
(38:41):
That is the core of why we do this. So
it just feels right. I mean, I remember again after
George Floyd was murdered and Bakers Against Racism sprung up.
I was so proud of the baking community. It was
a mobilization of bakers coming together to do something that
(39:06):
gave the rest of us a way to to contribute.
Speaker 1 (39:11):
Yeah, because I think as bakers, especially during the pandemic
when everyone's kind of locked down, but bakeries and bakers
were able to have this kind of like no contact
pop up style or bake sale where you know, it's
not like a sit down restaurant where people need to
come and eat and for those that are not familiar,
Bakers Against Racism was founded at a time where the
(39:32):
civil unrest has become so much and we're all just
kind of sitting around. It's kind of like what what
are we going to do about this? And I'm right
there with you. When I saw this, I was like, wow,
was it like the biggest bake sale ever? I mean
bakers all over the country.
Speaker 2 (39:50):
I think world, I think it when internationally.
Speaker 1 (39:55):
I'm starting to get like I'm like sitting here like yo,
like let's mobilize, like right from.
Speaker 2 (39:59):
Me, the sale was again a.
Speaker 1 (40:02):
Class started from some granola, right, you had some granola
and Vermont and all of a sudden you're making a
difference in the Ukraine. You're making a difference with regards
to combating racism. Maybe it doesn't seem that way. I mean,
trust me, I watch your posts and all that kind
of thing. Like I remember when you raise all that
money it was like a cake class, right or something
like that. You've done it a few times, so I'm
(40:24):
really really thankful that you have shared all of this
with us for our listeners, don't forget to check out
World Central Kitchen, donate, volunteer, I think it's WCK dot org.
And you know, since we talked about it, Bakers against Racism,
get on the social channels and check out the next
bake sale that's getting mobilized to combat systemic racism and
(40:44):
oppression that we deal with in this country. Zoe, I
really thank you for bringing light to this, so thank
you anyway, and I also thank you for coming to
my kitchen and having my granola. We really love having
you off Flake.
Speaker 2 (40:56):
You guys love it. I loved being able to talk
with you like this and to watch you in the kitchen.
This was such a treat.
Speaker 1 (41:04):
Trial and tribulations of the simplest recipe I've ever made.
Speaker 2 (41:07):
Shit.
Speaker 1 (41:10):
Thank you so much, Zoe. It was a pleasure.
Speaker 2 (41:12):
This is amazing.
Speaker 1 (41:14):
We'll talk again soon. Hi, y'all, thank you so much
for listening to today's episode. You can find the recipe
for Aunt Melissa's granola on Shondaland dot com or in
Zoe's cookbook Artisan Bread in five Minutes a Day. Y'all,
I want to know how it goes as usual. Make
(41:34):
sure you're making these recipes. Tag Me at Artists and Brian,
tag Zoe at Zoe Bakes, and of course Shondaland, post
your photos, get into discord, let's chat about it. Tell
me how you did You know what I'm saying. Make
sure you don't burn your granola. Make sure you're stirring
your granola. You already know what it is. Don't forget
to check out World's Central Kitchen. You can find them
(41:55):
at WCK dot org. All the websites and social handles
I've mentioned are in the show notes for this episode.
Fam If you like Flaky Biscuit, which me I would
assume you do, because who doesn't like Flakey Biscuit, you
know what to do. Leave us a rate, a review.
Make sure the world knows that this is the best
food podcast of all time. Share, subscribe, like, follow, Make
(42:19):
sure you tell everyone you know that Flakey Biscuit is
the way to go. Flakey Biscuit is executive produced by
Sandy Bailey, alex Alja, Lauren Homan, Tyler Klang, and Gabrielle Collins.
Our creative producer is Bridget Kenna, and our editor and
producer is Nicholas Harder. With music by Crucial. Recipes from
(42:42):
Flaky Biscuit can be found each week on Shondaland dot com.
Subscribe to the Shondaland YouTube channel for more Flaky Biscuit content.
Flakey Biscuit is a production of Shondaland Audio in partnership
with iHeartRadio. For more podcasts from Shondaland Audio, visit the
heart Radio app, Apple Podcasts, or wherever you listen to
(43:03):
your favorite shows.
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