May 7, 2022 • 44 mins
Thomas travels to Houston to chat with Texan's GM Nick Caserio. Thomas and Nick discuss their time together in New England, and share a common experience around their first year as a GM in the league.
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Speaker 1 (00:00):
My name is Ariel Custom Baum and I am the
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(00:21):
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donating to this amazing initiative at fair meals dot org.
Forward slash donate. All right, everyone, I'm glad you can
join me on my trip up to philly spending time
with Howie, like classic Howie Roseman, very, very aggressive and
(00:45):
instrumental in the draft you saw, very, very interesting and
intelligent guy. I'm glad you're long for the ride with
me on that one. Welcome to the GM journey with
Thomas Demtrov. As you know, we're jumping from philly all
the way down to Houston spend some great time with
Nick Kissario. Nick, as I mentioned before, is a really
(01:08):
close friend of mine. Have a great deal of respect
for Nick, his intelligence, his work ethic. I personally don't
think there's a harder working general manager or personnel man
in this league the Nick Kiss Aria. He deserves all
he's gotten. He's been very patient during his time in
New England. He earned this time to be the guy
(01:29):
and he made no mistake about it. is in charge
in Houston. We have a lot of parallels in our career.
One really interesting one we talk about is our really
interesting parallel with our quarterback situations when we first came
into our respective organization, and mine with Michael Vick, his
with the Shaun Watson, both very complicated in their own ways.
(01:53):
But you'll see nick has handled it well and handled
it tactfully and handled it like the professionally is. You'll
love this guy. You'll get to know him, you'll realize
the authenticity of Nick Cassario. Enjoy the ride, Nikossario. Welcome
to the think tank Houston, Texas. Can you imagine? Right,
(02:14):
my great friend Nick Cassario. We've known each other forever,
massive amount of respect for each other. I'm glad we're
able to join each other and you can. You can
sit in here for a few minutes. I love the
fact that we're able to sit down and talk some
football leadership which you know, we've done that for many,
many years. So the first question I have is, you know,
here you are, you've done some amazing things in New
(02:34):
England and you've been very successful for a number of years.
You've had opportunities. Why Now? Why Houston first, before we
get that awesome to see it. It's just always a
pleasure from to get the opportunity to get together so
much respect and admiration and balancely, you were one of
the people that I wanted most from just growing out
my career. So just relative to this situation here, I
(02:57):
think we always evaluate as we go through of our
professional situation is and we just try to make good
decisions and try to find situations that we think make
the most sense of I was plused to be able
to stand on one spot for a long period of time.
As you mentioned, there were different opportunities that presented themselves.
We never felt felt that at the time it was
made sense. I think at this point it was an option,
(03:18):
as an opportunity for for really me and my family
to kind of try something different than really to challenge
ourselves itself and see how much growth and development we
can actually you know, how much we could how much
growth we can actually Um, you know how that it
bent so Um. You know, there's never one right answer.
Situation is a little bit different. They're all created a
(03:39):
little bit differently. Um. But again, when we evaluate the situation,
I mean the opportunity presented itself, we thought, when it
came down to make a decision, that it was made
the most sense. And, you know, we're happy to be
I mean, I'm so excited for you. I mean I've
been watching over the years, you know, just watching very
closely on what your decisions are going to be, because,
you know, we all make some really, you know, tough
(04:01):
decisions and we have to really dig in deep to
see where our life is going. And and I'm really
excited for you. There's a lot on your plate here,
like anything, and we'll get into that in a few minutes,
because I experienced the same thing when I first got
my first general manager Gig. So you come from an
organization that you know, that just builds and has some
(04:21):
very very powerful people, smart people, unbelievably, a depth football people,
starting with Bill Belichick of course, and other people with
some very strong personalities, not only people that you worked
for and reported to, but also people that you work
side by side with. There have been some amazing people
that have come out of that organization. It's a strong
organization with a very strong head coach, driven leadership style
(04:46):
and leadership approach. Um, you're coming into a situation now
where your final safe football guy and you're the general manager.
Can you tell me how you will approach it in Houston,
with your background being so strong head coaching and you
come me in now in charge? How will that be?
What will your relationship be like with with the head
coach and how will the organization revolve around that? Great Question.
(05:08):
We're always a product of our experiences and what we
go through. So you learn a lot. Hopefully you learn
a lot just by watching people and then you try
to figure out, okay, if you're ever in a position
or a situation where the opportunity to maybe oversee your lead,
how are you going our approach that? So, I mean
the lessons that that I've learned are invaluable. I mean there's,
like you mentioned, so many great people that have left
that that we learn from that. We have relationship with Um.
(05:31):
Really what you have to do, wherever you go is
you just have to put your own spin on and
try to do the things that you feel make the
most sense. So in our particular situation, the most important
thing is a relationship between the head coach and the
personnel staff or the general manager. However it works and
it has to be a collaborative effort. I do believe
that the head coach is the most important voice within
the organization because they interface with the team on a
(05:52):
daily basis. They message the team, they kind of chart
the course relative to what goes on in a week
lead basis, whether relative to opponent prep, what we're gonna
do and practice, those types of things. So what I
hopefully can bring to the table is clean on the
head coach, is some of the experience that we've had,
or maybe present an idea that you know what, let's
try this, this makes sense. I think the one thing
(06:12):
that I've learned being around coach color is just how
open minded he is and how how receptive he is
to what we're trying to do. So again, it's not
about one person or one individual. It's more of a
collaborative voice and we're all trying to accomplish the same
goal and the same goal and the key is just
to kind of work in unison with one another. And
again it's not about one person, about what one person thinks,
(06:34):
it's about here's some ideas, let's try this, and it
just kind of spit all things back and forth. So
I think that's the beauty of it, which each model
is different. Each team, how they're structured, is different. So
you have to look at your model, figure out what
makes the most sense and then chart your course accordingly.
It's interesting I look back on the time again when
you first get into that spot and you have visions
(06:54):
and perceptions of how you want things to be. I
remember looking at a j Smith and Marty Schottenheimer to
excellent football people at so many levels, and they were
at longer heads and I thought I learned from that experience.
You know, we all look out, we look at history
as a learning a learning tool for us, and the
point is that I remember being very, very particular about
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making sure both of the both of the head coaches
that I happen to be with, Mike Smith and Dan Quinn,
I had very, very communicative relationships with of course we
had our challenges and we had our disagreements, but knowing
how important it is to have that relationship with the
HC and knowing that you're in line and you both
respect each other's roles and responsibilities, it really doesn't matter
(07:35):
in the end who has final stamps. Say It means
you know, it really means a lot that you were
working together. Obviously you have a very good grasp of that.
So what's the single most important team building lesson that
you learned while in New England with Bill Belichick? As
you know, there's a merit of things that you learned,
but I would say the most important thing is the
(07:56):
notion of team over self and the importance that it's
not going to be about one individual. And if you
sacrifice one's person's needs or what they want for the
you know in with respect to the team, you're going
to run into potentially some issues down the road. So
I'd say team overself and then understanding of role identification
and that everybody has an important role and to be
(08:19):
able to execute that. Those are probably be two of
the most important things among various and sundry others. So
it's funny. I people often ask me that, of course,
over many years, and it still comes up, and mine
was I learned I was I was trying to put
the phrase together. I learned Um indisputable role understanding in parends.
(08:40):
Do Your job now, no swearing. They're gonna beat that out,
but that is honestly what I remember being like something
that I knew, but conceptually to see that Um adhered
to within the organization. I mean, you weren't one if
you started dabbling here and there. There was no patience
for that, which I appreciate, and some people have. Some
(09:01):
people struggle. They think that's part of their growing within
the organization. I think if we're mindful about what we
give people, that's important. Well, to see the application of
that concept in you know, in reality, and what is
that exactly entail or mean? And a lot of that
is based on the people that you have in the building.
So if you have people that you can train and
understand that mindset, then it's a lot easier to implement.
(09:24):
If you have people that don't understand that, they could
potentially jump outside of the scope of what they're trying
to do and again make it bigger than themselves, which
anytime you try to make something bigger than yourselves you're
potentially Gonnam into some robots a long way. It's a
great it's a great point. So Organization. Let's backtrack a
little bit. You and I go way back. We are
very close friends at so many levels, professionally and personally. Um,
(09:47):
we've ridden bikes and boulder. You were known, and my
assessment of you, one of the very hardest workers in
this league. No one could keep up with you. I
know you're gonna be humble about it, but that's the fact. Major,
focused so many great attributes as a mid manager working
through your world, great expectations for yourself for those around
(10:08):
you when you were holding that spot, as as a
servant leader for bill there. Now you go into a
situation where you are the dude, Um, and I go again.
I know that you probably played that down with the
reality as you are, those expectations that you have for yourself,
how do you think you're going to manage those for
those around you? Because it is really important to realize
there are very few people like you that way, and
(10:31):
I ran into a situation where my expectations were so
high at times for those around me that I had
to really keep that in check and I had to
have conversations. I had to have conversations with me. Like
T I am trying and I am doing the best
that I can and I had to be realistic about that.
Where are you? What's your stance on that? It's an
awesome question and I think you know there's a lot
of great people that are in this league, which we've
(10:53):
had to get fortunate being around, and we all have
very high expectations of ourselves. You know, a lot of
us have goals and aspirations and when you it to
a certain level, then you know we maintain those goes.
How do you maintain that drive, that focus, and we
always try to hold people around us to a higher standard,
but by the same token, we have to allow each
person to be themselves and to grow organically. Our job
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and leadership is to be able to provide them some
direction and give them the chance, with the opportunity to
potentially meet those goals. So part of his teaching, part
of it is learning from them and understanding that each
person is different. You can have high standards and expectations,
but how you treat the people that you work with
and how you mold them is important. So being very
(11:35):
mindful of that is we have to take a step
back sometimes and make sure we don't get frustrated at
things an't you want things done a certain way, but
again explaining them. Well, here's why, and then showing them again.
It's more about actions than words. So again that's don't
sacrifice the expectations. Still want to have high standards, but
you can do it in a way where everybody has
(11:56):
the chance to do it in their own pace. I
love that. I mean doing in their own pace and
understanding and empathy is a big thing. Sometimes, again, the
competitiveness and the drive that we have you can get
in the way, um, but if if you remind yourself
the importance of being empathic, I think that's you know,
I think that is such an important attribute of a leader,
(12:16):
especially as a general manager in this league, when things
are flying around and it can get a little dusty
at times. There's there's no question about keep your feet
on the ground, trying to maintain as much of a
consistency day to day so that people that's what they
see in a an understanding of okay, they're not walking
around a night shehell, so to speak. So in New
England during those years and culminating with two thousand seven
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before I got my general manager job in Atlanta, we
were winning like crazy. We were, we were blowing people out.
The points that were scored. I was a little taken
back personally, getting into this role of wanting to go
into games and annihilate people in fourteen, fifteen, eighteen points
meant nothing to me. I wanted forty and fifty points.
I thought, wow, am I that person? Did I become
(13:03):
so addicted to winning that that's where I am now?
It was really interesting for me. You have won a
lot and you have won more than most people in
this league. You go from a dynasty, New England patriots,
and you come to Houston. It's a rebuild in essence.
Do you ever concern yourself? Have you concerns about how
you're going to transition from dynasty when all the time
(13:26):
to some tough challenges and maybe some losses, more than
you're used to? It's an awesome question. So winning can
be intoxicating, it can be exhilarating and can be all consuming,
and I think what we have to do is just
take a step back and realize about how big, how
many points again, whenever you go into a new situation,
there's a good chance you're going there because going the
(13:48):
way that everybody hope right. So where you're currently fitting.
So you're in you're kind of restarting to some extent,
and it's not that you reset expectations, but you kind
of have to be a listic and pragmatic, and I
think that's the most important thing, is to not get
too consumed in understanding that it's difficult, it's hard and
it's going to take a series of repetitive actions over
(14:11):
the course of time. I mean, the reality was some
of those teams are some of the greatest teams that
any of us have been around and you're probably not
going to reduplicate that. So you can't look at that
and go well, this it's going to be. It might be,
but you can't be upset or you know, if you
come up if you don't have that that type of
team and that typical model. So I would say being realistic,
pragmatic about your expectations, but again, established the foundation, established
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the culture is that, established the standards and then work
towards achieving that, understanding that wins and wins are very
difficult to come by. They are very difficult to come by.
We know that and a lot of people have lost
jobs because of the win loss record and they are Um,
they're very good football people and we've seen it on
our side. You've seen a number of people who are
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really good at what they do, really good understanding of
evaluating an act position, and yet maybe they didn't make
the right decisions or maybe not, or maybe they just
lost because the ball roll, you know, would bounce a
certain way and things were rolling a certain way. It's
it's just a fascinating league that way. Okay, so new England.
Many people have talked about this and I'm gonna ask
(15:17):
you this question. People have thrived coming out of New England,
the New England situation, and a number have failed. What
do you think the key to success and thriving is
coming out of the Patriot paradigm versus flailing, take the
principles and values that you've learned and again, you can't
(15:39):
necessarily reduvocate everything that you do. The key is just
to be yourself and do the things that you've believe
in and have convictions. And ultimately, none of us have
boots on the ground and understand like what the situation
is like. Everything to look at it from the outside
in and kind of see will it didn't work because
of X, Y and Z, but really we don't know
the intricacies and what went on kind of on a
(16:00):
day to day basis. So you can't get too caught
up in that. The only thing you can do is
just do the things that you believe and be true
to who you are and let the people around you
see what you're all about, which that was the one
thing I've always admired about you, is just how you're
always yourself and you do the thing that you can
link believe in and you're very genuine and authentic, which
I think people see that and they respect that about you.
(16:21):
So again, we have to kind of look at each
situations like slaves. You kind of start over and then
just figure out what do you think makes the most
sense and how can maybe you apply some of the
principles of values that you've learned somewhere else that have
been a big part of your life, and how do
you incorporate them into what you're visioning goals? It's a
great answer. I mean, look, when you're around a coach
and a team builder like Bill Belichick, who is, of course,
(16:43):
Hall of fame and, want to arguably the best coach
in the history of this lead. Of course you're gonna
leave there thinking, okay, I have to do things in
certain ways. Like Bill. Bill's personality is unique. We're all
very different and anyone who has ever left there is
different and it's it's something that I've thought about a lot.
What are the intricacies and the nuances of being smart
(17:03):
about what you take from New England that is your personality,
and what you take that isn't so um? Obviously that's
an important part of it. We're all unique. God made
us a certain way for a reason. So we have
to be true to who we are and when you
have convictions about what you believe in, then it's a
lot easier to implement those. Not that what based on
maybe what somebody else or some other program they have done.
(17:24):
You come from an organization, New England patriots, that is
more about Um. Less is more. You're not coming from
an organization that is all about throwing money around or
throwing titles around or this this sort of dance around
trying to move up the ladder. Bill would never have that.
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So now you go into your own organization, you're running
your own organization. How will you approach that? What will
be your approach to titles, moving people up having patients
with people who need encouragement. It's a it's a complicated
mix because you want to make sure people are on board,
you want to make sure their morale is right and
(18:06):
yet we all know that more people, more problems, more titles,
potentially more problems. What is your stance on that? Key
and you mentioned it's about role identification, so being able
to articulate here's the here's your role, here's why it's important,
here's what the expectation is and here's how it's going
to work within the team context. So and then it's
taking your personnel and again you have to do an
(18:27):
autopsy of kind of what you have in place, the
WHO so evaluate their strengths and their weaknesses. Maybe they
have a vast sense of experience in a couple of
different areas. So try do we maximize our resources of
the people that we have here in this build, in
the building, and if there's somebody externally that we feel
can can come in and supplement what we're doing, then
you can add them. But it's you don't want to
just add people just to add people. Who Want to
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be very purposeful of what you're trying to do, very
intentional and just put people in the best positions they
have an opportunity to succeed and then part of our
job and responsibilities to grow them and give them the
opportunity to grow and give them some different whether it's
assignments or ways to test them, or it maybe some
metrics that you can measure them so you can give
them feedback and say, okay, here's why this has worked,
here's why you may have an opportunity to move forward,
(19:10):
and that constant flow of information and communication will help
them and their overall development. So I do agree that
that communication is massively important and I know sometimes it's
simplified when people ask me, you know, what's the key,
and I realized over that many years that that was
the key. I ran into a situation a few years
ago where I started to really focus on my relationship
(19:33):
with the head coach because I thought that's what was needed.
We always had a great relationship, but I thought we
had a lot of people in that mid management group,
director heads, who had a lot of experience and I
thought you guys are good taken and run with it.
So I stopped communicating regularly and it really started to
cause a bit of a rift within the organization because
I was no longer communicating with them regularly. They at
(19:55):
times weren't feeling one that needed. That's human nature. I'm
not calling that soft at all. I understand that, but
it was a little bit of an eye opener for me,
or a lot of an eye opener, where I realized
that's not how I should be running this organization. Yes,
I need to have great relationships, leading with Dan Quinn,
the head coach, and leading up to Arthur blank, but
I need to make sure that that mid man group,
(20:16):
that Director Group, is dialed in and regularly communicated to.
and Um, I learned a big lesson there. Do you
have any thoughts about mid management communicating with your directors
and how important that is? Absolutely, it's a fine line
because you want to empower, you want a guide and
you want to direct. You have to empower, you just
have to be able to provide in some guidance, but
(20:37):
that group is an integral part of the organizational structure,
so you want to interface as much as possible and
keep that communication kind of flowing. Again, typically typical or charts,
everything works from the bottom up, right or you know
however it dis disseminated right, but you can't lose sight
of that group, because everybody is important. Everybody's in the
position for a reason. So you want to power and
(21:00):
you want to listen and you want to keep that
communication going. Ultimately, a line has to be drawn because
you have to make a decision at some point in
your position. So somebody has to make a decision, whether
it yourself or just a head coach. But again, you
want to make them make it known that they're important,
their voice matters, they do have a voice. Again, it
goes back to role identification and at some point you
(21:21):
know that line is going to be drawn. But that
communication and that flow of information, those people helped support
the players, which, in the end, that's what our job is,
to support the players provide them with many resources as
possible so that when they go out there on Sunday
they can optimize their performance. So there's various people that
are involved, there's a different touchpoints and not losing sight
of that, I think, is important. I just think that's
(21:43):
a great lead into my next thought is, you know,
you're coming into a situation in Houston that has some
outside imposed drama going on. That's not you're you're also
coming from an organization that was able to handle that
and and, you know, do what you needed to do.
You have situation UM, without getting a ton of detail
on it, because it's been talked about so much, and
(22:06):
it's interesting. I look back on that and there are
so many parallels to, you know, your first year as
a general manager in mind, back in two thousand eight.
We both have situations where I personally believe there were
a lot of people that were jealous of me getting
that job, skipping a couple of steps coming to the
GM job from a personnel director, a college director job.
You have people out there were jealous of you for
(22:27):
this reason or that reason. It's the way it is
in this league, unfortunately, and yet it's shortly have they
all become, you know, comfortable again. You have a quarterback situation.
You know with Deshaun Watson, I had a quarterback situation
coming in and we had it with Michael Vick. Made
some very big moves, roster moves that weren't necessarily fan
(22:48):
friendly moves, people that were perceived in certain ways. Without
getting into a ton of names, you had that, I
had that Um. We come into a situation where there
was a lot in front of us and a lot
to do. Um that is something that I think plays
into your personality because you're a very thoughtful person and
it's important to understand your obligation as a general manager,
(23:10):
and is your obligation, in your mind, to modify that situation.
And how do you do that and how do you
keep your morale high when everything is going on around
the organization? It's an awesome question. There's so many, I
would say, outside voices or outside influence because of the
climate in which we live in the society, of the
way it's structured, and we just have to be very
(23:32):
cognizant and purposeful of not allowing those outside sources, outside influence,
to factor the things that go on inside the building. Again,
when you're in a position of leadership, whatever that looks like,
you have no idea what's going to come across your test.
That's on a day to day basis. So how we
respond to that ultimately is the most important thing. So
whatever your conviction you have and whatever your belief system is,
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you have to resort back to that because that's kind
of your reset button and then be able to disseminate
that mess is throughout the entire organization, because everybody is
looking at you for direction. How do you handle a situation?
How do you respond? So, in order to get people too,
I would say trust what you're doing and to believe
that this is the right thing. You have to be
able to continually move forward, deal with them and and
(24:17):
really focus on the here and now and deal with
the president and not get into a lot of hypotheticals
about what could happen, what may happen, what has happened.
We can't necessarily concern ourselves with that. is to take
the information process that, assess it, make the best decision
that we feel makes the most sense of organizationally and
continually move forward and not allow some of the outside
influences to factor in your concision making, because if you
(24:38):
do that, I mean which way is the wind blow?
And each day it's going to constantly change. Right one
day it's this, next day it's that. So if you
allow that to potentially factor into your decision making mechanism
or thought process, you're probably gonna run into some issues
on a day to day basis. So be true to
who you are, have your convictions, have your belief and
just it's about actions and not about words and everybody
(25:00):
is looking at you for for directions. So you want
to be able to provide that positive direction and keep
the building moving at the right way. You had a
great deal of respect from those in in the organization
in New England. I look back on our time in
early years together and you you know, you were getting
your feet wet. You had so many things going on.
You were putting pads on your arms, you were, you
were just you rolled your sleeves up again, which I
(25:20):
thought was so great. And within that you had you
had a trade about you that I always admired and
I always remember it. When things started getting really again,
dusty and and and they were spinning around where a
lot of people were getting anxious. I thought you had
an ability. Now, maybe inside you were fired up like
the rest of us, but I thought you had an
ability to keep it streamline, take a deep breath, focus
(25:42):
on the task at hand. And it was coming down
at times too deadlines, that we needed stuff. At least
that's what it appeared like, given some of the leadership there.
was like hey, you need to get this done, and
I thought you did a great job with that. Please
don't ever lose that when you come into this situation
as a GM because that goes a long way for
people watching. To your point, the perception of you. Sometimes
(26:03):
you have to close your door and take deep breasts,
but when how you're perceiving, how you're perceived, sorry, and
how you're interacting with those in the organization is is very,
very important. Of course, I appreciate the perspective on that
and I think that's one thing, quite frankly, that that
I've learned. I would say, going back to when I
was younger in college, I was as hard on myself
as anybody and I would outwardly let people see that
(26:25):
I was very emotional. I kind of internalize things. So
as I grew a little bit older, I learned that
it's okay to kind of open up a little bit
and just take the situation and just understand it and
don't internalize it and displace the emotion in a negative way.
So I'd say, quite frankly, that's one of the things
that I would say that I've probably learned from you,
(26:46):
just because of your personality, how you were able to
kind of maintain your positivity, maintain who you are, and
I think part of that is just by from my
perspective is just learning, remaining curious and studying leadership and
looking at different people how they handle those situations. Because again,
the other thing, just going back to one of the
things that I've probably learned from build the most is
(27:06):
his consistency day to day just with how he handled
things was remarkable. And again that's by watching and learning.
And so again, if you're we're in that position of leadership,
people are watching how you handle the situation. So it's
incumbent upon us to try to do the right things
and to show even if, inside man this is really
hard or there's a lot of intense it's intense, there's
(27:27):
a lot of pressure not to show that outwardly and
then just to to reassure the folks that are around you.
So again, that's a learned trade. I think you can
learn that and if you study leadership and leadership models,
you see that more and more. Great response. Once again,
as I expected, a couple of quick hitters on this
before we move on to a couple of the topics.
If you could do one thing differently leading up to
(27:50):
your time in professional football, I'm talking about through your
childhood or through college, your your level of involvement in
certain areas study colleges. Is there anything you would have
done differently? Before I got in the NFL, I didn't
even know what a personnel department was. So what if
I learned about personnel ahead of time? Would have made
(28:11):
a big chain? Not necessarily so. I think the big
thing is just, generally speaking, maintaining curiosity and always wanting
to learn and try new things. I was so, I
wouldn't say closed minded when I was in you know,
in college, when I was a younger kid, which part
of that goes back to what we just talked about.
I had a tendency to kind of internalize things. So
(28:31):
maybe be a little bit more open, open minded kind
of and just maybe allowed more people in and just
continue to maintain my curiosity and just always being open
to learning and maybe trying some new things. Okay, same question.
As you were in the profession and you're working towards
your general manage your job. Is there anything that you
would have done differently and that journey? Yeah, I would
(28:56):
say we get caught up sometimes and everybody has a goal,
like okay, timeline right by this point, I need to
be at this level right or this is my goal
and how do I get there? I think the big
thing is just to try to focus on how can
you be great that day with your feet on the
ground and then just kind of be the best version
of yourself. I probably didn't understand that maybe when I
(29:18):
first started in the League and kind of what that meant,
and the more I kind of learned and understood that
a little bit more, just trying to be very purposeful
with that. So, Um, again, each opportunity, each day is
the opportunity to learn, whatever the role is, and I
would say just being flexible, being malleable, is important. So
I would say, if advice to people that are working
(29:39):
their way through the profession like those are some things
that we probably should kind of keep in mind and
not get so caught up. And what's the end game?
WHAT'S THE END goal? Because when you reach that end goal, okay,
what is it? And and then what I mean you're
still there's a sort of restart or, you know, you
get re energized, but again, okay, you've reached the end point. Okay,
is that at the end or is it the start
of something new? So just be being able to kind
(30:00):
of short term not necessarily worry about what the end
goal is and then just focus on just be kind
of being the best version of yourself, whatever you're doing
at that particular time. Great, great words of wisdom. You
talk about endgame, you talk about taking it a step
at a time. The League is making some strides in
diversity and inclusion. Um You have a very interesting, unique
(30:24):
and really good sound situation here. Can How do you
assess where the League is right now in that quest
to be better and continue to move the needle? I
think there's progress being made from a League perspective, but
it's not good enough. Like we have to do more
and there has to be more of a commitment from
all of us and if, in our position, we can
(30:46):
continually move the needle a little bit and pushed towards that. Again,
it's about our actions more than our words, and when
we look at the composition of our coaching staff, we
probably have one of the most most diverse coaching staffs
in the league. If you want to commit to something
and you want to see improve me and something, you
actually have to do something to actually create those opportunities
for people. And it's the right thing to do and
we can do more, both as a league both individually
(31:08):
and you just have to make a commitment and then
you have to have actions that back your words. Nick.
Let's let's move forward here and finish this conversation with
let's talk a little bit about future, Um League, future you, Um.
Let's talk first about the league. What is your biggest concern?
What what keeps you up at night a little bit
(31:30):
for a lot about the league over the next ten years? Well,
the health and safety of the players and the health
and safety of the game in general is something that's
been talked about. So, you know, what can we do
to continually make sure that, you know, this game is
still appealing to younger generation, because there's nothing that builds
a person than being involved in team sports. We all
(31:52):
have the good fortune of being a part of teams
for a long period of time and the things that
you learn the team environment you can't duplicate those. It's
hard to duplicate those in another environment. So, say, the
health and safety of the game, Um, and continually working
to develop our players. Um. You know, it was important
and being, I would say, mindful and open minded to
the new technologies that might be available, because there's so
(32:14):
much that's out there. But trying to identify and figure
out things that actually we might be useful and have
an application that might help, whether it's individual player and
individual coach or the organization as a whole. So, UM, again,
you've got to be careful of just staying static and
thinking that the game, the game right now, is in
a really good spot. But you can't take for granted
and assume that that's just going to continue just because
(32:35):
of you know, osmosis right. You actually have to do
things to make sure that it maintains. You know, whatever
role or competitive eventage that you may have. There are
so many layers to this sport, to this league, to
sport in general. It's it's just unbelievable at times. I'm
back on my heels seeing how things have changed so
much already. When we look back to our early years
in professional football, to where we are right now and
(32:57):
to what you're going to be a part of going
to the future running an organization. There's a lot going
on and uh, hopefully we continue to evolve. I am
very encouraged by the evolution. I'm very encouraged not only
by diversity inclusion, even though we have a long way
to go, really really interested in where we're going with analytics.
(33:18):
I mean, I know we didn't necessarily talk about this
prior to but quickly, succinctly, I guess I would say,
where are you with your stance on analytics? I know
you were just waxing poetic at the M I t
symposium there, which we all love. I believe, Um you
you have very strong feelings about it. But in a nutshell,
(33:40):
what would you say the operation is and and going forward,
how do you think it plays into the League? There's
a role and a purpose and has a role within
the organization. And again, what it is? It's another tool
or resource that's available that you have in your fingertips
to utilize. So you have to look at it within
a larger context than the football operation figure out a
(34:00):
how is it applicable, to be you know, why is
it useful? And to be able to understand that and
to be able to take, I would say, swap, some
information and really want to boil it down, not to
oversimplify it, but into something that's usable. I think that's
the most important thing, the biggest challenge, because there's so
much data, there's so much information that is out there,
(34:21):
but to be able to synthesize that in the succinct way.
That's the most important thing. There's absolutely a place for it.
How you incorporate it within your structure you ultimately have
to determine, but there's a lot of smart people that
are involved in that and there's a place for it.
And again, part of it is moving forward from a
leadership standpoint, is continue to be open minded and continuing
to embrace maybe some new ideas that maybe run counter
(34:45):
to maybe what has happened in the past, but that's okay.
Like the ability to grow, the ability to embrace new
is important, and that's an idea, quite frankly, that football
is probably behind relative to some other sports, relative to baseball,
relative basketball, and that's okay. It doesn't mean that we
can't catch up and there's a place for it. How
you choose to incorporate it into your structure, ultimately you
(35:05):
have to be very purposeful with it. The ability to change,
being open to change, adaptability, to me, is so important
in this league. It's so important in sport in general.
And again I continue to think about where changes and
the people that are resistant to change are, you know,
are stuck, and that organization, in my mind, is going
(35:27):
to be very it's gonna be complicated to move forward and,
I think, to be successful for a long term. I
really do believe the days of being scouts at the core,
which we take a lot of pride, ends. That said,
I really believe that the days of going to an
owner and saying it's in my heart, it's in my gut,
it's in my soul. Um, Mr Kraft, Mr Blank, you know,
(35:50):
Mr McNair, that no longer flies. You have to have,
in my mind, something that's gonna Quantify, something that's gonna
sort of back up what your decisions are not saying
in the end you don't go with what you know
is right. You just need to quantify, I think. At times,
I think it's really, really important to have evidence based decisions. Um,
(36:13):
you're special at what you do, but to have that
goes a long way, not only for the owners but
I think at times it'll go a long way with
your head coach, because sometimes a head coach, their views
and opinions, rightly so, are much more narrow yours have
to be this, this, this big and a lot more
sort of down the road and thought with a lot
more time within your scope. Metrics matter and it works
(36:36):
both ways, to support or maybe a refute something. So
again you're just benchmarking against some other people that a sources,
some other piece of information. So if you have something
that can work in a complimentary way, that's okay, because
what it does just fortunate to maybe go back and
take another look and say, you know what, okay, you
know what, we have it. Here's what my my gut
says right, and we're deeply rooted in scouting. That's how
(36:57):
we grew up. So scouting is important, but again, scouting
in the traditional sense is probably a little bit more
all encompassing now than it was fift years ago. That's okay.
That's the evolution of society, that's the evolution of corporations,
that's the evolution of business. So the people that realize
that and understand that quicker are going to have an
(37:17):
opportunity for a continual admancement and continual change. Another great answer.
So let's let's skip over here and talk to a
topic that you and I have always talked about and
always enjoyed, and that's learning and growing again, open to change,
open to new ideas, open to philosophies. Um, I've been
lately quite immersed in Ryan Holliday's approach to stoicism. It's
(37:41):
something that I always have to keep in check from
an emotional uh standpoint. I think it's important to always
look at that and grow. Yes, make sure you're you
have a really good control of where your mind is.
You know, Ryan Holliday and stillness is a key obstacle.
Is a way and many more and and and podcasts,
et CETERA. And then flip it over to a guy
that Greg McEwen, who wrote the book essentialism back in
(38:03):
fourteen and has just recently written effortless. I'm a big
believer in essential Um. Myself and Dan Quinn had a
lot of discussions about this. Too often our personalities that
are a personalities, that are driven personalities. We tend to
want to work here, work there. We have forty or
fifty things coming out of our core of interest because
(38:25):
we think we need to do everything we can. And
in reality I realized over the last probably five years,
if I can narrow that focus down to ten truly
essential things that are gonna help me and the organization
be the best that we can be, then I'm on
my way to much better focus and at that point
delegate properly. Those those guys to me have really affected
(38:49):
me and I've really taken an interest in that. So
if I ever do get another opportunity to get in
the league, great, if I don't, whatever I do, essentialism
is going to be a really big part of it.
Talk to me about where you are. Give me a
book or a philosophy or a study that you're immersed
in right now. Yeah, leadership is a fascinating topic. I mean,
could you can go a million different directions on it.
(39:10):
And again, from my perspective, it's not necessarily about one
particular paradigm. You know, whether it's essentialism, whatever it may be,
it's probably a combination of different things and different ideas
from different types of people. And then when you study
people people like Sati and Adela, who wrote about his
book hit refreshed, was about Microsoft kind of how they
were reshaping their culture a little bit. You know, he
(39:31):
took over for Steve Ballmer, who took over for Bill Gates,
and kind of looking at Microsoft and kind of doing
an autopsy about where they were and what they wanted
to be moving forward. But listen to people like Satia,
listen to people like Jamie diamond, who? Jamie diamond is
a pregnantist, he's a realist and when you listen to
him talk, he doesn't he boils things down and simplifies them.
It's just some different, I would say, traits or qualities
(39:52):
that are important, whether humility, whether it's empathy, whether it's curiosity,
whether it's listening. So again, and from my perspective, it's
more about looking at people, the things that they implement,
how they implement them, and some ideas that you can say, Oh,
you know what, we can implement this in our own
way and you put your own spin on it relative
to your organizational structure and culture that you're trying trying
(40:12):
to create. And again, there's so much information and the
perspective out there on leadership. I mean, I just finished
up Adam grants think again, right. So, and Adam is
one of the most respected authors and teaches at wharton
and the whole premise of think again is to kind
of look at what you're doing and to kind of say,
is there another way? Is there a better way? How
can we improve it or how can we make it better?
(40:33):
which speaks to curiosity, which speaks to listening, which speaks
to ongoing learning and being a lifelong learner. I mean,
Jamie diamond just talked about this the other day when
he gave the commencement address at the high state and
that was one of his key tenants that he talked
about was be a lifelong learner, be curious, have humility,
have empathy. Right. So when you start to see these
themes show up time and time again, you need to
(40:55):
look at yourself and internally and say, okay, you know,
are are we using those things or is there a
place for those and how do you go about it
in your own succinct way? Fantastic. So last question. It's
a fun question. We could go on. I have to
be mindful. Off You're getting back to the stadium because
(41:15):
you have a lot of going on. If there was
one question that you feared me asking in this first
time doing this, what was it? Uh, I've never let
fear dictate anything. So again, you deal with a really
deal with reality. So if you were to ask me something,
I probably would have a response and not be afraid.
(41:36):
We can't live and fear and I think we just
have to embrace it and I think that's the thing.
Just being who you are and embracing life each day
and not be fearful about okay, if Thomas asked me
about this, like I have the right thing to say.
Like again, I try not. You try not to let
fear drive your motivation and drive your day. So again,
I don't think you can still too much fear. That's
(41:58):
it's it's it's a great answer. It's the answer that
I expected. Nickissario, just a wonderful friend of mine, Wonderful Mind,
wonderful soul, great intelligence, great drive, great focus. Thanks for
joining me. Don't, ever, please lose that wonderful side of
your soul in your quest for a super bowl, because
it's what makes you special. I love you. Thanks, man,
(42:21):
love you too. Okay, I hope you guys enjoyed that
trip with Nick Cassario. Again, you can see very quickly
how likable he is, how intelligent and driven he is.
He will do all he can to make things work
down there in Houston and I'm betting on him. He's
(42:42):
the kind of guy you'll always bet on. I hope
you enjoyed the ride with Nickis Sarrio and, as you
know from Nick Assario, we travel and we are traveling
north up to Kansas City to spend some time with
Brett beach and uh interesting enough, Bret beach very are
accomplished in his quick years as a general manager with
(43:03):
the Kansas City chiefs. He's a Howie Roseman protege. Spent
time in Philadelphia. That's where he met and developed a
great relationship, working relationship and personal relationship with Andy Reid,
one of the very best coaches in the League, Hall
of Famer for sure. He has learned so much from
Andy Reid. They work so well together. You will see
(43:25):
how an organization is to run when you travel with
us and spend some time with Brett Beach, how he
deals with the head coach and a great ownership. He
really has hit the TRIFECTA there. And, by the way,
he's got a great interest in the horse racing scene
and as a big Kentucky Derby Guy. So how appropriate
(43:47):
enjoy you have been listening to the GM journey with
Thomas Demtrough. Continue to follow Thomas as he interviews GMS
from your favorite NFL teams. The GM journey has been
produced by Alan Castenbaum, Thomas Dimitrov an octagon entertainment. Don't
(44:08):
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My name is Ariel Custom Baum and I am the
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(00:21):
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donating to this amazing initiative at fair meals dot org.
Forward slash donate. All right, everyone, I'm glad you can
join me on my trip up to philly spending time
with Howie, like classic Howie Roseman, very, very aggressive and
(00:45):
instrumental in the draft you saw, very, very interesting and
intelligent guy. I'm glad you're long for the ride with
me on that one. Welcome to the GM journey with
Thomas Demtrov. As you know, we're jumping from philly all
the way down to Houston spend some great time with
Nick Kissario. Nick, as I mentioned before, is a really
(01:08):
close friend of mine. Have a great deal of respect
for Nick, his intelligence, his work ethic. I personally don't
think there's a harder working general manager or personnel man
in this league the Nick Kiss Aria. He deserves all
he's gotten. He's been very patient during his time in
New England. He earned this time to be the guy
(01:29):
and he made no mistake about it. is in charge
in Houston. We have a lot of parallels in our career.
One really interesting one we talk about is our really
interesting parallel with our quarterback situations when we first came
into our respective organization, and mine with Michael Vick, his
with the Shaun Watson, both very complicated in their own ways.
(01:53):
But you'll see nick has handled it well and handled
it tactfully and handled it like the professionally is. You'll
love this guy. You'll get to know him, you'll realize
the authenticity of Nick Cassario. Enjoy the ride, Nikossario. Welcome
to the think tank Houston, Texas. Can you imagine? Right,
(02:14):
my great friend Nick Cassario. We've known each other forever,
massive amount of respect for each other. I'm glad we're
able to join each other and you can. You can
sit in here for a few minutes. I love the
fact that we're able to sit down and talk some
football leadership which you know, we've done that for many,
many years. So the first question I have is, you know,
here you are, you've done some amazing things in New
(02:34):
England and you've been very successful for a number of years.
You've had opportunities. Why Now? Why Houston first, before we
get that awesome to see it. It's just always a
pleasure from to get the opportunity to get together so
much respect and admiration and balancely, you were one of
the people that I wanted most from just growing out
my career. So just relative to this situation here, I
(02:57):
think we always evaluate as we go through of our
professional situation is and we just try to make good
decisions and try to find situations that we think make
the most sense of I was plused to be able
to stand on one spot for a long period of time.
As you mentioned, there were different opportunities that presented themselves.
We never felt felt that at the time it was
made sense. I think at this point it was an option,
(03:18):
as an opportunity for for really me and my family
to kind of try something different than really to challenge
ourselves itself and see how much growth and development we
can actually you know, how much we could how much
growth we can actually Um, you know how that it
bent so Um. You know, there's never one right answer.
Situation is a little bit different. They're all created a
(03:39):
little bit differently. Um. But again, when we evaluate the situation,
I mean the opportunity presented itself, we thought, when it
came down to make a decision, that it was made
the most sense. And, you know, we're happy to be
I mean, I'm so excited for you. I mean I've
been watching over the years, you know, just watching very
closely on what your decisions are going to be, because,
you know, we all make some really, you know, tough
(04:01):
decisions and we have to really dig in deep to
see where our life is going. And and I'm really
excited for you. There's a lot on your plate here,
like anything, and we'll get into that in a few minutes,
because I experienced the same thing when I first got
my first general manager Gig. So you come from an
organization that you know, that just builds and has some
(04:21):
very very powerful people, smart people, unbelievably, a depth football people,
starting with Bill Belichick of course, and other people with
some very strong personalities, not only people that you worked
for and reported to, but also people that you work
side by side with. There have been some amazing people
that have come out of that organization. It's a strong
organization with a very strong head coach, driven leadership style
(04:46):
and leadership approach. Um, you're coming into a situation now
where your final safe football guy and you're the general manager.
Can you tell me how you will approach it in Houston,
with your background being so strong head coaching and you
come me in now in charge? How will that be?
What will your relationship be like with with the head
coach and how will the organization revolve around that? Great Question.
(05:08):
We're always a product of our experiences and what we
go through. So you learn a lot. Hopefully you learn
a lot just by watching people and then you try
to figure out, okay, if you're ever in a position
or a situation where the opportunity to maybe oversee your lead,
how are you going our approach that? So, I mean
the lessons that that I've learned are invaluable. I mean there's,
like you mentioned, so many great people that have left
that that we learn from that. We have relationship with Um.
(05:31):
Really what you have to do, wherever you go is
you just have to put your own spin on and
try to do the things that you feel make the
most sense. So in our particular situation, the most important
thing is a relationship between the head coach and the
personnel staff or the general manager. However it works and
it has to be a collaborative effort. I do believe
that the head coach is the most important voice within
the organization because they interface with the team on a
(05:52):
daily basis. They message the team, they kind of chart
the course relative to what goes on in a week
lead basis, whether relative to opponent prep, what we're gonna
do and practice, those types of things. So what I
hopefully can bring to the table is clean on the
head coach, is some of the experience that we've had,
or maybe present an idea that you know what, let's
try this, this makes sense. I think the one thing
(06:12):
that I've learned being around coach color is just how
open minded he is and how how receptive he is
to what we're trying to do. So again, it's not
about one person or one individual. It's more of a
collaborative voice and we're all trying to accomplish the same
goal and the same goal and the key is just
to kind of work in unison with one another. And
again it's not about one person, about what one person thinks,
(06:34):
it's about here's some ideas, let's try this, and it
just kind of spit all things back and forth. So
I think that's the beauty of it, which each model
is different. Each team, how they're structured, is different. So
you have to look at your model, figure out what
makes the most sense and then chart your course accordingly.
It's interesting I look back on the time again when
you first get into that spot and you have visions
(06:54):
and perceptions of how you want things to be. I
remember looking at a j Smith and Marty Schottenheimer to
excellent football people at so many levels, and they were
at longer heads and I thought I learned from that experience.
You know, we all look out, we look at history
as a learning a learning tool for us, and the
point is that I remember being very, very particular about
(07:14):
making sure both of the both of the head coaches
that I happen to be with, Mike Smith and Dan Quinn,
I had very, very communicative relationships with of course we
had our challenges and we had our disagreements, but knowing
how important it is to have that relationship with the
HC and knowing that you're in line and you both
respect each other's roles and responsibilities, it really doesn't matter
(07:35):
in the end who has final stamps. Say It means
you know, it really means a lot that you were
working together. Obviously you have a very good grasp of that.
So what's the single most important team building lesson that
you learned while in New England with Bill Belichick? As
you know, there's a merit of things that you learned,
but I would say the most important thing is the
(07:56):
notion of team over self and the importance that it's
not going to be about one individual. And if you
sacrifice one's person's needs or what they want for the
you know in with respect to the team, you're going
to run into potentially some issues down the road. So
I'd say team overself and then understanding of role identification
and that everybody has an important role and to be
(08:19):
able to execute that. Those are probably be two of
the most important things among various and sundry others. So
it's funny. I people often ask me that, of course,
over many years, and it still comes up, and mine
was I learned I was I was trying to put
the phrase together. I learned Um indisputable role understanding in parends.
(08:40):
Do Your job now, no swearing. They're gonna beat that out,
but that is honestly what I remember being like something
that I knew, but conceptually to see that Um adhered
to within the organization. I mean, you weren't one if
you started dabbling here and there. There was no patience
for that, which I appreciate, and some people have. Some
(09:01):
people struggle. They think that's part of their growing within
the organization. I think if we're mindful about what we
give people, that's important. Well, to see the application of
that concept in you know, in reality, and what is
that exactly entail or mean? And a lot of that
is based on the people that you have in the building.
So if you have people that you can train and
understand that mindset, then it's a lot easier to implement.
(09:24):
If you have people that don't understand that, they could
potentially jump outside of the scope of what they're trying
to do and again make it bigger than themselves, which
anytime you try to make something bigger than yourselves you're
potentially Gonnam into some robots a long way. It's a
great it's a great point. So Organization. Let's backtrack a
little bit. You and I go way back. We are
very close friends at so many levels, professionally and personally. Um,
(09:47):
we've ridden bikes and boulder. You were known, and my
assessment of you, one of the very hardest workers in
this league. No one could keep up with you. I
know you're gonna be humble about it, but that's the fact. Major,
focused so many great attributes as a mid manager working
through your world, great expectations for yourself for those around
(10:08):
you when you were holding that spot, as as a
servant leader for bill there. Now you go into a
situation where you are the dude, Um, and I go again.
I know that you probably played that down with the
reality as you are, those expectations that you have for yourself,
how do you think you're going to manage those for
those around you? Because it is really important to realize
there are very few people like you that way, and
(10:31):
I ran into a situation where my expectations were so
high at times for those around me that I had
to really keep that in check and I had to
have conversations. I had to have conversations with me. Like
T I am trying and I am doing the best
that I can and I had to be realistic about that.
Where are you? What's your stance on that? It's an
awesome question and I think you know there's a lot
of great people that are in this league, which we've
(10:53):
had to get fortunate being around, and we all have
very high expectations of ourselves. You know, a lot of
us have goals and aspirations and when you it to
a certain level, then you know we maintain those goes.
How do you maintain that drive, that focus, and we
always try to hold people around us to a higher standard,
but by the same token, we have to allow each
person to be themselves and to grow organically. Our job
(11:14):
and leadership is to be able to provide them some
direction and give them the chance, with the opportunity to
potentially meet those goals. So part of his teaching, part
of it is learning from them and understanding that each
person is different. You can have high standards and expectations,
but how you treat the people that you work with
and how you mold them is important. So being very
(11:35):
mindful of that is we have to take a step
back sometimes and make sure we don't get frustrated at
things an't you want things done a certain way, but
again explaining them. Well, here's why, and then showing them again.
It's more about actions than words. So again that's don't
sacrifice the expectations. Still want to have high standards, but
you can do it in a way where everybody has
(11:56):
the chance to do it in their own pace. I
love that. I mean doing in their own pace and
understanding and empathy is a big thing. Sometimes, again, the
competitiveness and the drive that we have you can get
in the way, um, but if if you remind yourself
the importance of being empathic, I think that's you know,
I think that is such an important attribute of a leader,
(12:16):
especially as a general manager in this league, when things
are flying around and it can get a little dusty
at times. There's there's no question about keep your feet
on the ground, trying to maintain as much of a
consistency day to day so that people that's what they
see in a an understanding of okay, they're not walking
around a night shehell, so to speak. So in New
England during those years and culminating with two thousand seven
(12:40):
before I got my general manager job in Atlanta, we
were winning like crazy. We were, we were blowing people out.
The points that were scored. I was a little taken
back personally, getting into this role of wanting to go
into games and annihilate people in fourteen, fifteen, eighteen points
meant nothing to me. I wanted forty and fifty points.
I thought, wow, am I that person? Did I become
(13:03):
so addicted to winning that that's where I am now?
It was really interesting for me. You have won a
lot and you have won more than most people in
this league. You go from a dynasty, New England patriots,
and you come to Houston. It's a rebuild in essence.
Do you ever concern yourself? Have you concerns about how
you're going to transition from dynasty when all the time
(13:26):
to some tough challenges and maybe some losses, more than
you're used to? It's an awesome question. So winning can
be intoxicating, it can be exhilarating and can be all consuming,
and I think what we have to do is just
take a step back and realize about how big, how
many points again, whenever you go into a new situation,
there's a good chance you're going there because going the
(13:48):
way that everybody hope right. So where you're currently fitting.
So you're in you're kind of restarting to some extent,
and it's not that you reset expectations, but you kind
of have to be a listic and pragmatic, and I
think that's the most important thing, is to not get
too consumed in understanding that it's difficult, it's hard and
it's going to take a series of repetitive actions over
(14:11):
the course of time. I mean, the reality was some
of those teams are some of the greatest teams that
any of us have been around and you're probably not
going to reduplicate that. So you can't look at that
and go well, this it's going to be. It might be,
but you can't be upset or you know, if you
come up if you don't have that that type of
team and that typical model. So I would say being realistic,
pragmatic about your expectations, but again, established the foundation, established
(14:35):
the culture is that, established the standards and then work
towards achieving that, understanding that wins and wins are very
difficult to come by. They are very difficult to come by.
We know that and a lot of people have lost
jobs because of the win loss record and they are Um,
they're very good football people and we've seen it on
our side. You've seen a number of people who are
(14:55):
really good at what they do, really good understanding of
evaluating an act position, and yet maybe they didn't make
the right decisions or maybe not, or maybe they just
lost because the ball roll, you know, would bounce a
certain way and things were rolling a certain way. It's
it's just a fascinating league that way. Okay, so new England.
Many people have talked about this and I'm gonna ask
(15:17):
you this question. People have thrived coming out of New England,
the New England situation, and a number have failed. What
do you think the key to success and thriving is
coming out of the Patriot paradigm versus flailing, take the
principles and values that you've learned and again, you can't
(15:39):
necessarily reduvocate everything that you do. The key is just
to be yourself and do the things that you've believe
in and have convictions. And ultimately, none of us have
boots on the ground and understand like what the situation
is like. Everything to look at it from the outside
in and kind of see will it didn't work because
of X, Y and Z, but really we don't know
the intricacies and what went on kind of on a
(16:00):
day to day basis. So you can't get too caught
up in that. The only thing you can do is
just do the things that you believe and be true
to who you are and let the people around you
see what you're all about, which that was the one
thing I've always admired about you, is just how you're
always yourself and you do the thing that you can
link believe in and you're very genuine and authentic, which
I think people see that and they respect that about you.
(16:21):
So again, we have to kind of look at each
situations like slaves. You kind of start over and then
just figure out what do you think makes the most
sense and how can maybe you apply some of the
principles of values that you've learned somewhere else that have
been a big part of your life, and how do
you incorporate them into what you're visioning goals? It's a
great answer. I mean, look, when you're around a coach
and a team builder like Bill Belichick, who is, of course,
(16:43):
Hall of fame and, want to arguably the best coach
in the history of this lead. Of course you're gonna
leave there thinking, okay, I have to do things in
certain ways. Like Bill. Bill's personality is unique. We're all
very different and anyone who has ever left there is
different and it's it's something that I've thought about a lot.
What are the intricacies and the nuances of being smart
(17:03):
about what you take from New England that is your personality,
and what you take that isn't so um? Obviously that's
an important part of it. We're all unique. God made
us a certain way for a reason. So we have
to be true to who we are and when you
have convictions about what you believe in, then it's a
lot easier to implement those. Not that what based on
maybe what somebody else or some other program they have done.
(17:24):
You come from an organization, New England patriots, that is
more about Um. Less is more. You're not coming from
an organization that is all about throwing money around or
throwing titles around or this this sort of dance around
trying to move up the ladder. Bill would never have that.
(17:45):
So now you go into your own organization, you're running
your own organization. How will you approach that? What will
be your approach to titles, moving people up having patients
with people who need encouragement. It's a it's a complicated
mix because you want to make sure people are on board,
you want to make sure their morale is right and
(18:06):
yet we all know that more people, more problems, more titles,
potentially more problems. What is your stance on that? Key
and you mentioned it's about role identification, so being able
to articulate here's the here's your role, here's why it's important,
here's what the expectation is and here's how it's going
to work within the team context. So and then it's
taking your personnel and again you have to do an
(18:27):
autopsy of kind of what you have in place, the
WHO so evaluate their strengths and their weaknesses. Maybe they
have a vast sense of experience in a couple of
different areas. So try do we maximize our resources of
the people that we have here in this build, in
the building, and if there's somebody externally that we feel
can can come in and supplement what we're doing, then
you can add them. But it's you don't want to
just add people just to add people. Who Want to
(18:48):
be very purposeful of what you're trying to do, very
intentional and just put people in the best positions they
have an opportunity to succeed and then part of our
job and responsibilities to grow them and give them the
opportunity to grow and give them some different whether it's
assignments or ways to test them, or it maybe some
metrics that you can measure them so you can give
them feedback and say, okay, here's why this has worked,
here's why you may have an opportunity to move forward,
(19:10):
and that constant flow of information and communication will help
them and their overall development. So I do agree that
that communication is massively important and I know sometimes it's
simplified when people ask me, you know, what's the key,
and I realized over that many years that that was
the key. I ran into a situation a few years
ago where I started to really focus on my relationship
(19:33):
with the head coach because I thought that's what was needed.
We always had a great relationship, but I thought we
had a lot of people in that mid management group,
director heads, who had a lot of experience and I
thought you guys are good taken and run with it.
So I stopped communicating regularly and it really started to
cause a bit of a rift within the organization because
I was no longer communicating with them regularly. They at
(19:55):
times weren't feeling one that needed. That's human nature. I'm
not calling that soft at all. I understand that, but
it was a little bit of an eye opener for me,
or a lot of an eye opener, where I realized
that's not how I should be running this organization. Yes,
I need to have great relationships, leading with Dan Quinn,
the head coach, and leading up to Arthur blank, but
I need to make sure that that mid man group,
(20:16):
that Director Group, is dialed in and regularly communicated to.
and Um, I learned a big lesson there. Do you
have any thoughts about mid management communicating with your directors
and how important that is? Absolutely, it's a fine line
because you want to empower, you want a guide and
you want to direct. You have to empower, you just
have to be able to provide in some guidance, but
(20:37):
that group is an integral part of the organizational structure,
so you want to interface as much as possible and
keep that communication kind of flowing. Again, typically typical or charts,
everything works from the bottom up, right or you know
however it dis disseminated right, but you can't lose sight
of that group, because everybody is important. Everybody's in the
position for a reason. So you want to power and
(21:00):
you want to listen and you want to keep that
communication going. Ultimately, a line has to be drawn because
you have to make a decision at some point in
your position. So somebody has to make a decision, whether
it yourself or just a head coach. But again, you
want to make them make it known that they're important,
their voice matters, they do have a voice. Again, it
goes back to role identification and at some point you
(21:21):
know that line is going to be drawn. But that
communication and that flow of information, those people helped support
the players, which, in the end, that's what our job is,
to support the players provide them with many resources as
possible so that when they go out there on Sunday
they can optimize their performance. So there's various people that
are involved, there's a different touchpoints and not losing sight
of that, I think, is important. I just think that's
(21:43):
a great lead into my next thought is, you know,
you're coming into a situation in Houston that has some
outside imposed drama going on. That's not you're you're also
coming from an organization that was able to handle that
and and, you know, do what you needed to do.
You have situation UM, without getting a ton of detail
on it, because it's been talked about so much, and
(22:06):
it's interesting. I look back on that and there are
so many parallels to, you know, your first year as
a general manager in mind, back in two thousand eight.
We both have situations where I personally believe there were
a lot of people that were jealous of me getting
that job, skipping a couple of steps coming to the
GM job from a personnel director, a college director job.
You have people out there were jealous of you for
(22:27):
this reason or that reason. It's the way it is
in this league, unfortunately, and yet it's shortly have they
all become, you know, comfortable again. You have a quarterback situation.
You know with Deshaun Watson, I had a quarterback situation
coming in and we had it with Michael Vick. Made
some very big moves, roster moves that weren't necessarily fan
(22:48):
friendly moves, people that were perceived in certain ways. Without
getting into a ton of names, you had that, I
had that Um. We come into a situation where there
was a lot in front of us and a lot
to do. Um that is something that I think plays
into your personality because you're a very thoughtful person and
it's important to understand your obligation as a general manager,
(23:10):
and is your obligation, in your mind, to modify that situation.
And how do you do that and how do you
keep your morale high when everything is going on around
the organization? It's an awesome question. There's so many, I
would say, outside voices or outside influence because of the
climate in which we live in the society, of the
way it's structured, and we just have to be very
(23:32):
cognizant and purposeful of not allowing those outside sources, outside influence,
to factor the things that go on inside the building. Again,
when you're in a position of leadership, whatever that looks like,
you have no idea what's going to come across your test.
That's on a day to day basis. So how we
respond to that ultimately is the most important thing. So
whatever your conviction you have and whatever your belief system is,
(23:55):
you have to resort back to that because that's kind
of your reset button and then be able to disseminate
that mess is throughout the entire organization, because everybody is
looking at you for direction. How do you handle a situation?
How do you respond? So, in order to get people too,
I would say trust what you're doing and to believe
that this is the right thing. You have to be
able to continually move forward, deal with them and and
(24:17):
really focus on the here and now and deal with
the president and not get into a lot of hypotheticals
about what could happen, what may happen, what has happened.
We can't necessarily concern ourselves with that. is to take
the information process that, assess it, make the best decision
that we feel makes the most sense of organizationally and
continually move forward and not allow some of the outside
influences to factor in your concision making, because if you
(24:38):
do that, I mean which way is the wind blow?
And each day it's going to constantly change. Right one
day it's this, next day it's that. So if you
allow that to potentially factor into your decision making mechanism
or thought process, you're probably gonna run into some issues
on a day to day basis. So be true to
who you are, have your convictions, have your belief and
just it's about actions and not about words and everybody
(25:00):
is looking at you for for directions. So you want
to be able to provide that positive direction and keep
the building moving at the right way. You had a
great deal of respect from those in in the organization
in New England. I look back on our time in
early years together and you you know, you were getting
your feet wet. You had so many things going on.
You were putting pads on your arms, you were, you
were just you rolled your sleeves up again, which I
(25:20):
thought was so great. And within that you had you
had a trade about you that I always admired and
I always remember it. When things started getting really again,
dusty and and and they were spinning around where a
lot of people were getting anxious. I thought you had
an ability. Now, maybe inside you were fired up like
the rest of us, but I thought you had an
ability to keep it streamline, take a deep breath, focus
(25:42):
on the task at hand. And it was coming down
at times too deadlines, that we needed stuff. At least
that's what it appeared like, given some of the leadership there.
was like hey, you need to get this done, and
I thought you did a great job with that. Please
don't ever lose that when you come into this situation
as a GM because that goes a long way for
people watching. To your point, the perception of you. Sometimes
(26:03):
you have to close your door and take deep breasts,
but when how you're perceiving, how you're perceived, sorry, and
how you're interacting with those in the organization is is very,
very important. Of course, I appreciate the perspective on that
and I think that's one thing, quite frankly, that that
I've learned. I would say, going back to when I
was younger in college, I was as hard on myself
as anybody and I would outwardly let people see that
(26:25):
I was very emotional. I kind of internalize things. So
as I grew a little bit older, I learned that
it's okay to kind of open up a little bit
and just take the situation and just understand it and
don't internalize it and displace the emotion in a negative way.
So I'd say, quite frankly, that's one of the things
that I would say that I've probably learned from you,
(26:46):
just because of your personality, how you were able to
kind of maintain your positivity, maintain who you are, and
I think part of that is just by from my
perspective is just learning, remaining curious and studying leadership and
looking at different people how they handle those situations. Because again,
the other thing, just going back to one of the
things that I've probably learned from build the most is
(27:06):
his consistency day to day just with how he handled
things was remarkable. And again that's by watching and learning.
And so again, if you're we're in that position of leadership,
people are watching how you handle the situation. So it's
incumbent upon us to try to do the right things
and to show even if, inside man this is really
hard or there's a lot of intense it's intense, there's
(27:27):
a lot of pressure not to show that outwardly and
then just to to reassure the folks that are around you.
So again, that's a learned trade. I think you can
learn that and if you study leadership and leadership models,
you see that more and more. Great response. Once again,
as I expected, a couple of quick hitters on this
before we move on to a couple of the topics.
If you could do one thing differently leading up to
(27:50):
your time in professional football, I'm talking about through your
childhood or through college, your your level of involvement in
certain areas study colleges. Is there anything you would have
done differently? Before I got in the NFL, I didn't
even know what a personnel department was. So what if
I learned about personnel ahead of time? Would have made
(28:11):
a big chain? Not necessarily so. I think the big
thing is just, generally speaking, maintaining curiosity and always wanting
to learn and try new things. I was so, I
wouldn't say closed minded when I was in you know,
in college, when I was a younger kid, which part
of that goes back to what we just talked about.
I had a tendency to kind of internalize things. So
(28:31):
maybe be a little bit more open, open minded kind
of and just maybe allowed more people in and just
continue to maintain my curiosity and just always being open
to learning and maybe trying some new things. Okay, same question.
As you were in the profession and you're working towards
your general manage your job. Is there anything that you
would have done differently and that journey? Yeah, I would
(28:56):
say we get caught up sometimes and everybody has a goal,
like okay, timeline right by this point, I need to
be at this level right or this is my goal
and how do I get there? I think the big
thing is just to try to focus on how can
you be great that day with your feet on the
ground and then just kind of be the best version
of yourself. I probably didn't understand that maybe when I
(29:18):
first started in the League and kind of what that meant,
and the more I kind of learned and understood that
a little bit more, just trying to be very purposeful
with that. So, Um, again, each opportunity, each day is
the opportunity to learn, whatever the role is, and I
would say just being flexible, being malleable, is important. So
I would say, if advice to people that are working
(29:39):
their way through the profession like those are some things
that we probably should kind of keep in mind and
not get so caught up. And what's the end game?
WHAT'S THE END goal? Because when you reach that end goal, okay,
what is it? And and then what I mean you're
still there's a sort of restart or, you know, you
get re energized, but again, okay, you've reached the end point. Okay,
is that at the end or is it the start
of something new? So just be being able to kind
(30:00):
of short term not necessarily worry about what the end
goal is and then just focus on just be kind
of being the best version of yourself, whatever you're doing
at that particular time. Great, great words of wisdom. You
talk about endgame, you talk about taking it a step
at a time. The League is making some strides in
diversity and inclusion. Um You have a very interesting, unique
(30:24):
and really good sound situation here. Can How do you
assess where the League is right now in that quest
to be better and continue to move the needle? I
think there's progress being made from a League perspective, but
it's not good enough. Like we have to do more
and there has to be more of a commitment from
all of us and if, in our position, we can
(30:46):
continually move the needle a little bit and pushed towards that. Again,
it's about our actions more than our words, and when
we look at the composition of our coaching staff, we
probably have one of the most most diverse coaching staffs
in the league. If you want to commit to something
and you want to see improve me and something, you
actually have to do something to actually create those opportunities
for people. And it's the right thing to do and
we can do more, both as a league both individually
(31:08):
and you just have to make a commitment and then
you have to have actions that back your words. Nick.
Let's let's move forward here and finish this conversation with
let's talk a little bit about future, Um League, future you, Um.
Let's talk first about the league. What is your biggest concern?
What what keeps you up at night a little bit
(31:30):
for a lot about the league over the next ten years? Well,
the health and safety of the players and the health
and safety of the game in general is something that's
been talked about. So, you know, what can we do
to continually make sure that, you know, this game is
still appealing to younger generation, because there's nothing that builds
a person than being involved in team sports. We all
(31:52):
have the good fortune of being a part of teams
for a long period of time and the things that
you learn the team environment you can't duplicate those. It's
hard to duplicate those in another environment. So, say, the
health and safety of the game, Um, and continually working
to develop our players. Um. You know, it was important
and being, I would say, mindful and open minded to
the new technologies that might be available, because there's so
(32:14):
much that's out there. But trying to identify and figure
out things that actually we might be useful and have
an application that might help, whether it's individual player and
individual coach or the organization as a whole. So, UM, again,
you've got to be careful of just staying static and
thinking that the game, the game right now, is in
a really good spot. But you can't take for granted
and assume that that's just going to continue just because
(32:35):
of you know, osmosis right. You actually have to do
things to make sure that it maintains. You know, whatever
role or competitive eventage that you may have. There are
so many layers to this sport, to this league, to
sport in general. It's it's just unbelievable at times. I'm
back on my heels seeing how things have changed so
much already. When we look back to our early years
in professional football, to where we are right now and
(32:57):
to what you're going to be a part of going
to the future running an organization. There's a lot going
on and uh, hopefully we continue to evolve. I am
very encouraged by the evolution. I'm very encouraged not only
by diversity inclusion, even though we have a long way
to go, really really interested in where we're going with analytics.
(33:18):
I mean, I know we didn't necessarily talk about this
prior to but quickly, succinctly, I guess I would say,
where are you with your stance on analytics? I know
you were just waxing poetic at the M I t
symposium there, which we all love. I believe, Um you
you have very strong feelings about it. But in a nutshell,
(33:40):
what would you say the operation is and and going forward,
how do you think it plays into the League? There's
a role and a purpose and has a role within
the organization. And again, what it is? It's another tool
or resource that's available that you have in your fingertips
to utilize. So you have to look at it within
a larger context than the football operation figure out a
(34:00):
how is it applicable, to be you know, why is
it useful? And to be able to understand that and
to be able to take, I would say, swap, some
information and really want to boil it down, not to
oversimplify it, but into something that's usable. I think that's
the most important thing, the biggest challenge, because there's so
much data, there's so much information that is out there,
(34:21):
but to be able to synthesize that in the succinct way.
That's the most important thing. There's absolutely a place for it.
How you incorporate it within your structure you ultimately have
to determine, but there's a lot of smart people that
are involved in that and there's a place for it.
And again, part of it is moving forward from a
leadership standpoint, is continue to be open minded and continuing
to embrace maybe some new ideas that maybe run counter
(34:45):
to maybe what has happened in the past, but that's okay.
Like the ability to grow, the ability to embrace new
is important, and that's an idea, quite frankly, that football
is probably behind relative to some other sports, relative to baseball,
relative basketball, and that's okay. It doesn't mean that we
can't catch up and there's a place for it. How
you choose to incorporate it into your structure, ultimately you
(35:05):
have to be very purposeful with it. The ability to change,
being open to change, adaptability, to me, is so important
in this league. It's so important in sport in general.
And again I continue to think about where changes and
the people that are resistant to change are, you know,
are stuck, and that organization, in my mind, is going
(35:27):
to be very it's gonna be complicated to move forward and,
I think, to be successful for a long term. I
really do believe the days of being scouts at the core,
which we take a lot of pride, ends. That said,
I really believe that the days of going to an
owner and saying it's in my heart, it's in my gut,
it's in my soul. Um, Mr Kraft, Mr Blank, you know,
(35:50):
Mr McNair, that no longer flies. You have to have,
in my mind, something that's gonna Quantify, something that's gonna
sort of back up what your decisions are not saying
in the end you don't go with what you know
is right. You just need to quantify, I think. At times,
I think it's really, really important to have evidence based decisions. Um,
(36:13):
you're special at what you do, but to have that
goes a long way, not only for the owners but
I think at times it'll go a long way with
your head coach, because sometimes a head coach, their views
and opinions, rightly so, are much more narrow yours have
to be this, this, this big and a lot more
sort of down the road and thought with a lot
more time within your scope. Metrics matter and it works
(36:36):
both ways, to support or maybe a refute something. So
again you're just benchmarking against some other people that a sources,
some other piece of information. So if you have something
that can work in a complimentary way, that's okay, because
what it does just fortunate to maybe go back and
take another look and say, you know what, okay, you
know what, we have it. Here's what my my gut
says right, and we're deeply rooted in scouting. That's how
(36:57):
we grew up. So scouting is important, but again, scouting
in the traditional sense is probably a little bit more
all encompassing now than it was fift years ago. That's okay.
That's the evolution of society, that's the evolution of corporations,
that's the evolution of business. So the people that realize
that and understand that quicker are going to have an
(37:17):
opportunity for a continual admancement and continual change. Another great answer.
So let's let's skip over here and talk to a
topic that you and I have always talked about and
always enjoyed, and that's learning and growing again, open to change,
open to new ideas, open to philosophies. Um, I've been
lately quite immersed in Ryan Holliday's approach to stoicism. It's
(37:41):
something that I always have to keep in check from
an emotional uh standpoint. I think it's important to always
look at that and grow. Yes, make sure you're you
have a really good control of where your mind is.
You know, Ryan Holliday and stillness is a key obstacle.
Is a way and many more and and and podcasts,
et CETERA. And then flip it over to a guy
that Greg McEwen, who wrote the book essentialism back in
(38:03):
fourteen and has just recently written effortless. I'm a big
believer in essential Um. Myself and Dan Quinn had a
lot of discussions about this. Too often our personalities that
are a personalities, that are driven personalities. We tend to
want to work here, work there. We have forty or
fifty things coming out of our core of interest because
(38:25):
we think we need to do everything we can. And
in reality I realized over the last probably five years,
if I can narrow that focus down to ten truly
essential things that are gonna help me and the organization
be the best that we can be, then I'm on
my way to much better focus and at that point
delegate properly. Those those guys to me have really affected
(38:49):
me and I've really taken an interest in that. So
if I ever do get another opportunity to get in
the league, great, if I don't, whatever I do, essentialism
is going to be a really big part of it.
Talk to me about where you are. Give me a
book or a philosophy or a study that you're immersed
in right now. Yeah, leadership is a fascinating topic. I mean,
could you can go a million different directions on it.
(39:10):
And again, from my perspective, it's not necessarily about one
particular paradigm. You know, whether it's essentialism, whatever it may be,
it's probably a combination of different things and different ideas
from different types of people. And then when you study
people people like Sati and Adela, who wrote about his
book hit refreshed, was about Microsoft kind of how they
were reshaping their culture a little bit. You know, he
(39:31):
took over for Steve Ballmer, who took over for Bill Gates,
and kind of looking at Microsoft and kind of doing
an autopsy about where they were and what they wanted
to be moving forward. But listen to people like Satia,
listen to people like Jamie diamond, who? Jamie diamond is
a pregnantist, he's a realist and when you listen to
him talk, he doesn't he boils things down and simplifies them.
It's just some different, I would say, traits or qualities
(39:52):
that are important, whether humility, whether it's empathy, whether it's curiosity,
whether it's listening. So again, and from my perspective, it's
more about looking at people, the things that they implement,
how they implement them, and some ideas that you can say, Oh,
you know what, we can implement this in our own
way and you put your own spin on it relative
to your organizational structure and culture that you're trying trying
(40:12):
to create. And again, there's so much information and the
perspective out there on leadership. I mean, I just finished
up Adam grants think again, right. So, and Adam is
one of the most respected authors and teaches at wharton
and the whole premise of think again is to kind
of look at what you're doing and to kind of say,
is there another way? Is there a better way? How
can we improve it or how can we make it better?
(40:33):
which speaks to curiosity, which speaks to listening, which speaks
to ongoing learning and being a lifelong learner. I mean,
Jamie diamond just talked about this the other day when
he gave the commencement address at the high state and
that was one of his key tenants that he talked
about was be a lifelong learner, be curious, have humility,
have empathy. Right. So when you start to see these
themes show up time and time again, you need to
(40:55):
look at yourself and internally and say, okay, you know,
are are we using those things or is there a
place for those and how do you go about it
in your own succinct way? Fantastic. So last question. It's
a fun question. We could go on. I have to
be mindful. Off You're getting back to the stadium because
(41:15):
you have a lot of going on. If there was
one question that you feared me asking in this first
time doing this, what was it? Uh, I've never let
fear dictate anything. So again, you deal with a really
deal with reality. So if you were to ask me something,
I probably would have a response and not be afraid.
(41:36):
We can't live and fear and I think we just
have to embrace it and I think that's the thing.
Just being who you are and embracing life each day
and not be fearful about okay, if Thomas asked me
about this, like I have the right thing to say.
Like again, I try not. You try not to let
fear drive your motivation and drive your day. So again,
I don't think you can still too much fear. That's
(41:58):
it's it's it's a great answer. It's the answer that
I expected. Nickissario, just a wonderful friend of mine, Wonderful Mind,
wonderful soul, great intelligence, great drive, great focus. Thanks for
joining me. Don't, ever, please lose that wonderful side of
your soul in your quest for a super bowl, because
it's what makes you special. I love you. Thanks, man,
(42:21):
love you too. Okay, I hope you guys enjoyed that
trip with Nick Cassario. Again, you can see very quickly
how likable he is, how intelligent and driven he is.
He will do all he can to make things work
down there in Houston and I'm betting on him. He's
(42:42):
the kind of guy you'll always bet on. I hope
you enjoyed the ride with Nickis Sarrio and, as you
know from Nick Assario, we travel and we are traveling
north up to Kansas City to spend some time with
Brett beach and uh interesting enough, Bret beach very are
accomplished in his quick years as a general manager with
(43:03):
the Kansas City chiefs. He's a Howie Roseman protege. Spent
time in Philadelphia. That's where he met and developed a
great relationship, working relationship and personal relationship with Andy Reid,
one of the very best coaches in the League, Hall
of Famer for sure. He has learned so much from
Andy Reid. They work so well together. You will see
(43:25):
how an organization is to run when you travel with
us and spend some time with Brett Beach, how he
deals with the head coach and a great ownership. He
really has hit the TRIFECTA there. And, by the way,
he's got a great interest in the horse racing scene
and as a big Kentucky Derby Guy. So how appropriate
(43:47):
enjoy you have been listening to the GM journey with
Thomas Demtrough. Continue to follow Thomas as he interviews GMS
from your favorite NFL teams. The GM journey has been
produced by Alan Castenbaum, Thomas Dimitrov an octagon entertainment. Don't
(44:08):
forget to download and subscribe on Apple Podcasts, spotify or
wherever you get your podcast from. The G M journey
is distributed by the eight side network.
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