Steve Keim - GM Arizona

Thomas parks the van at the residence of Arizona Cardinal's GM Steve Keim, and the two discuss where Steve got his start, his big move for Carson Palmer, and the friendship between him and Thomas.

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Episode Transcript

Speaker 1 (00:00):
My name is arial custom bound and I am the
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(00:21):
pillars of health, ease and affordability. To help continue to
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donating to this amazing initiative at fair meals dot org.
Forward slash donate. Okay, look, having an opportunity to be

(00:45):
in my hometown, Cleveland, Ohio, UM, spending time with one
of the smarter GMS in the League, albeit not that
veteran in the league. He's making some serious ground and again,
watch him closely as the years go on, because he's
gonna be groundbreaking in many ways. Welcome to the GM

(01:05):
journey with Thomas dimitrof. Well, as you know, we tend
to travel across the country. I has to say that
every time, and yes, that's what we're doing. We're going
from Cleveland Ohio all the way down to the southwest
to visit one of my very favorite buddies and the
guy I respect probably as much as anyone in the position,

(01:27):
and that's Steve Conn down in Arizona. I mean Steve
has he's had his tough times and he's had his
glowing times. He's a really, really good football man. He's
got one of the best eyes in the league and
he's really coming together as a bona fide general manager,
dealing with the ups and downs of being a general manager,
dealing with his own challenges, like we all have, every

(01:49):
one of us, and and ending up on top. This
guy is a pure winner. Listen to this podcast and
really dig in. He is such a again, I use
it before, but this guy is real. This guy is
authentic and I'm really proud how things are working out
for him, and I know that you know he's he's
just one of those guys. I say it before, and
I've said it before and say it again. You pull

(02:10):
for a dude like this. This guy's football through and through.
Here we are in Chandler, Arizona, outside of Steve Kim's house,
so excited to be here. Unbelievable climate right now and
an unbelievable setting here. Steve, thanks for joining us. I
mean look. I want everyone to know here. He and

(02:31):
I are probably the most particular about our get up
when we were going into games. The most arguably styling
guy in the NFL and uh I was there at
number two or three, I don't know. I don't know
exactly what it is so excited about talking some football
leadership and beyond. Okay, let's let's start by saying you
have a top notch reputation in this league for being

(02:53):
a dude's dude, a man's man Um someone who has
a great eye for talent and approach to building teams.
Hands Down, because of your football background, your PA background too,
I'll add, you have a really good understanding of how
to put together teams and there's no looking back. You
have a brazen, tough side, but you're also, if I

(03:15):
may add, you have a sensitive side, which I value.
Be Honest, probably one of the elements that you and
I bond with, because I was born, though I'm physically
very different than you at a hundred sixties Spinley pounds,
and you're you're you're a man's man and all buffed up,
I would say we we come from grounds that believe
in being tough and hardcore and our approach. Expect big

(03:37):
things and yet have sensitive side, and I think that's
what makes humbly as special as as leaders. I think
it's really important. You've become a widely veteran in the
GM role. How has your mindset changed from those early
years of being a GM to now being one of
the highly tenured guys in this league at almost ten years? Yeah,

(03:58):
I mean that's a great question and it's funny. I
go back to January eight two thousand thirteen. I walked
out of the introductory press conference with Michael Bide Um
and I'll never forget. I went up to my office,
I sat at my desk when I put my head
in my hand and said, holy sh it, what do
I do now? And it it was that that, that

(04:19):
moment in luck that I achieved the ultimate goal. Since
I was eight years old, I told my mother that
I wanted to be a general manager one day and
there was no book, there was nothing in paper or
in print that told me what to do. So obviously
I had to go back to all the the sort

(04:40):
of that core philosophy that you and I had built
over the years that we had done the job, E. Scouting,
all the preparation, all the time on the road. Luckily
enough for me, hired groups Arians as our head coach,
which created a lot of concern because here's a guy
who was a lifetime assistant coach at each sixty and
I treating the seventh round pick for a Parson Palmer

(05:02):
who was at the time Paul, a guy who was
washed up five years later. Over fifty games that we want,
we had some success with those guys. So, needless to say,
the first couple of moves for me in a pretty
good position. I mean there's no question about that. We
know how important head coaches are. We know how important
quarterbacks are head coaches from the standpoint of that relationship

(05:23):
being vital. You and I have experienced this before. We've
seen some special people through our years who were really
good football man and they got together as a partnership
and it just didn't work, and I realized over the
years I feel I was very blessed. No, we didn't
win a super bowl. We had an historic loss in sixteen,
but I had my time with Mike Smith, who was

(05:44):
a hell of a coach, three coaches of the year
in those times, and Dan Quinn, who I thought was
an excellent coach and motivator. We just didn't get it done.
Was that? Did that lead to me getting fired? We
can be arguable at so many levels of reality. Is
I did here. I'm sitting here now talk in to
you and segueing into the importance of having a quarterback.
You are one of the few blessed in this league

(06:05):
who have a quarterback that is really, really unbelievably interesting
to everyone in the League as from a team builder standpoint,
but also in the fan base UH NFL in general.
Kyler Murray, where he is, what you have in him.
Does that in any way settle your angst of being
on a hot seat? We all are, honestly, every year.

(06:27):
Does it change your philosophy and approach to building the team?
Does it change your approach and philosophy to where morale
is within the organization, knowing that you have a guy
that can take you to the Promised Land? You know,
it's funny, and I just mentioned the fact that we
traded for Carson Palm in the first five years, veteran
head coach, quarterback who was really on the virgin becoming

(06:50):
m VP of the National Football League. One of those
years won fourteen games and I look back at it
and I thought pretty good at this stuff. You know
what I mean? It's you have a so, you have
a great quarterback, you have a good football team and
you know, it can lead to you thinking that I'm
really good at what I do and then humility sense.
Carson Palmer retires, grouce sarian walks away from the game

(07:13):
and now all of a sudden supplying demand becomes the
issue and, as you know more than anybody, supplying demand
is a real thing and those guys don't grow on treaties.
So when you look at the reality of that position
and there's probably five, six seven that you can win
it all with, that you truly believe can do it all,

(07:33):
and now all of a sudden you don't have one.
How are you going to acquire that guy? Million people
play fantasy football. How are you getting them? And it's
it's one of those deals. We traded up for Josh Rosen.
Josh didn't get it done and within one year fired
or head coach and moved on from our first round
pick sort of at that time. It's really a uncharted

(07:55):
territory and, quite frankly, it was something that was embarrassing,
but to take the guy with the first pick in
the draft the following year. Um, you know, you want
to talk about pressure he had. We had to hit
on and you had to trust in your instincts. He
had a trust in your eyes. Kyler Murray, in my opinion,
was a guy that we certainly felt like was a

(08:16):
franchise quarterback. Year one, offensive bookie of the year, year two,
one of three NFC pro bowl quarterbacks. Um. To get
to your question, which was now, how do you build
a team? Obviously, a rookie quarterback being on this rookie contract,
it affords the ability to be a little more aggressive
with veteran winters contractually. Um, we all know it's a

(08:39):
piece of the Pie. It's it's a pizza and there's
only so many slices and that's how we sort of
relate to it, as you know, football guys. Um. But
you have to be aggressive and the whole mindset that
you know there's on the cardinals this year. They got
J J Watt a J. They're going for it. We're
going forward every year. When do we have the opportunity
to sit back and go you know what, life is

(09:00):
pretty good. You know, we'll just wait we'll our fans
on the notion that you know what we're building. Just
give us some time. Nobody wants to hear that you
spent two D fifty dollars for a ticket. You spent
twenty dollars for popcorn, ten dollars for beer. Nobody wants
to hear that we're building. What a what a great
response to that, and you're exactly right. They don't want
to hear that. You do not want to hear that. All. Look,

(09:23):
as I often do in conversations that we're having here,
I want to paint the picture of our history together.
Let me just say the fact that you did what
you did with Josh Rosen. That's a ballsy move and
I love it because I've seen it. This year. You
saw more and more of that happening where organizations, general
managers were moving on from their star, ostensibly star quarterback

(09:47):
that was taken in the first round. That is a
big move, putting ego aside and saying we're doing what's
best for the organization. It's an unbelievable trait. I think
that someone could have instead of I'm holding on for
dear life and I am I'm going to keep this
guy come hell or high water, and the reality is
some work. This is not an exact science. You and
I both know that. You know ten years ago I

(10:10):
might have sat in that seat and said, you know
what cliff we're playing, Josh, he's got to develop, gotta
take enough. But where are the time to trust your instincts?
You have to talk it through with ownership. There's a
lot of moving parts that are involved and, quite frankly,
I'm not proud of it as an indictment on me
and the selection that I made the year before. But

(10:30):
at the same time, and you know this better than anybody,
we have a responsibility in these positions and that is
to do what's best for the organization moving forward, and
the thing that I had to look at and I
had to have some open and honest talks with myself.
As much as that it was indictment on me that
we I don't want to say we made a mistake,

(10:51):
but for us to propel ourselves into a place to
be a championship organization, to quickly have success, Kyler Murray
had to be the selection and it wasn't easy and
it was a lot of sleepless nights, but at the
end of the day. You know in these provisions you

(11:11):
have to put your ego aside, check your Egos and
go and do what's right for the organization, no question
about it, and you learn it more and more and
more comfortable and secure in the position. You know you
are exponentially better as a leader at this point in
your career than you were in those first two or
three years. I would say that hands down all right. Again,
as I normally do in these conversations, I usually go

(11:34):
to the general manager that I'm talking to, and you
are a good friend of mine, of course, and we've
shared a lot over the years. Interestingly enough, we've not
done a trade together, which is correct on that correct? Yeah,
I mean anything. Part of it is because I know
you're stark guying, certainly not going to have the better
end of the deal, so I always sort of steered

(11:54):
away from that and, uh, probably pretty thankful. Well, we have.
We have a really good trusting relationship. We Talk Paul,
we talk about players, the reality, you know, you talk
about free agents who are swirling around the league. You
have good discussions and I knew that any time I
ever called you, and you knew the same with me.
If we picked up the phone it was, or a
text t I need you, timer, I need your buddy.

(12:16):
You're you're on the phone and that's that. It sends
chills up my spine. Without being melodramatic about it's an
emotional thing for me because in this league you know
the people that you can count on and you know
if you really needed to get something done, there wasn't
a screw you, it was a win win. That's a
little different from old, old years, and we can talk
about old style approaches. The reality in this league is

(12:37):
if you want to get deals done, you have to
have a trusting relationship with your your your contemporaries in
the League, which leads me into you have done so
many cool things in this league. You have been very
forthright and outspoken about the ups and the challenges, the downs.
I even call them downs, because the reality is in
this business we're gonna have the the obstacles. You know

(13:00):
we're gonna have the challenges. You've been very outspoken about that. Specifically,
or not so specifically, is there anything that you would
share with the rising aspiring general manager in this league
per your obstacles and your challenges and your mishaps along
the way. You know, I think it's Um number one.

(13:22):
I think it's twofold. I think there are sides of
this business and they all sort of blend that are
personal and professional, and there are a number of things
that I've gone through professionally that I've learned along the way.
I've learned my hard lessons. Yet at the same time,
in my personal life, you know, have made uh decisions

(13:45):
that have ultimately affected my life and my career. Um,
just so be it very public D U I and
something like that. Uh, you have two ways to look
at things. And as you go through a tough time
like that, and I'm talking about dark days, and I
want everybody to know I don't feel sorry for myself.

(14:06):
Believe I made a critical mistake that I am sorry
for every day of my life. Promise you this. There's
not a day in my life that goes by that
I don't think about it. But I would pray and
I hope that the opportunity to talk about it and
to share something like that with you and the audience,

(14:27):
maybe somebody doesn't make the same poor decision. Maybe somebody
along the way thinks about the GM who should have
handed the keys to a friend who again. Um, it's
life changing. Not only could I have hurt somebody else,

(14:48):
but I've obviously affected perception of me. My career costly
a fine Um levied upon myself and I look back
and I have fod kids. I could have sent my
kid to carver four years wow to pay a fine
for a stupid decision that I made. And there wasn't

(15:11):
a day goes by that that doesn't drive me to
do better, to put out the word to hopefully make
sure that none of my friends, family members or people
that I care about in society make that same stupid decision.
And again, if if I can help somebody else, it
was certainly worth it. Um. Again, I would certainly like

(15:33):
to take that back, but I can't change it now
and all I can do is I can try to
put out the message that don't get behind the wheel.
Incredibly thoughtful. Thank you for the response. Thank you for
going there. The reality of all of this is you're
a very resilient person. You're a thoughtful person and a

(15:53):
caring person. Back to what I what I believe is
one of the main reasons that I really value you
as a friend, not only profess but personally. It's it's
heartwarming and I don't want to get all sappy and
emotional about it, but it is true. It's it's a big,
big deal. You think about your wisdom in that experience
and many other experiences, again, being one of the long
tenureds in this league, what is the one thing that

(16:16):
you would have done differently prior to getting into the League?
I'm talking about, you know, youth all the way up
through college. What would you have done differently for for
those aspiring to be a gem? You know, I would
probably say Um, ask more questions, say less, soak up
knowledge and continue to learn as much as I possibly can.

(16:39):
Times have changed and they continue to change and that's why,
in our positions that you and I have been in, Um,
I've had to challenge myself, to remind myself, as a
person and as a general manager in the National Football League,
that we have a duty and that duty is to
pay it forward. You know, a lot of times you
get in these positions and you say, I want to
do a good job here my little area and I'm

(17:01):
going to control what I can control. Instead of I
have other people that are depending on me. There are
other people that, for example, rod grades, the General Manager
before me. If he didn't sit and teach me life
lessons and lessons within the National Football League, how would
I have ever put myself in position to see? If
you didn't have people along the way and grab you

(17:22):
and believe in you, then you would have never gotten
to where you were. So along the way is not
to forget about all those people that lend it a
hand to you and to make sure that we're continuing
to pay it forward to the younger audiences and the
people who truly caroline. Now let's move to the next
stage of your career. In the same question, what would

(17:44):
you have done differently in that area of ascension? So
we all know how that was complicated. Those times were
great times. When we were on the road. We wanted
to be the best college scouting director in the world. Right.
That's where my head was. I wasn't thinking, yeah, I
dreamed about being a general manager, but I was focused
on the here and now. succinctly. What about in that area?

(18:06):
Would you have done anything different during that growth time
before you became the general manager? Paid more attention to people,
because ultimately you and I worked our whole entire life
to become general managers that were that were that was.
You and I shared that goal in life and you know,
I spent thirteen years on the road and in a
couple of years in the office. You're very similar. All

(18:29):
those years, you and I went to far go, North
Dakota and places that people wouldn't even believe there are universities.
Do you and a Tuscoon Tennessee? You know, places that
you and I had spent together and spent in a
film room where there was even a bathroom, or whatever
it may have been. All those things were great. Watching
the film was like eating dessert. That's the fun part

(18:50):
of the job. Paying more attention to people, and more
so in these positions managing people personalities. What drives people?
Do you need a paddle on the back? Do they
need to be loved? Do they need to be held accountable?
Everybody is is is different. I think that's probably been

(19:10):
one of the most challenging parts of this job. Is
is when you deal with personalities every day and it's
like drafting players in exact science. Everybody is different. How
do you have success in taking people's level of ability
to the highest standard? Um because you're a coach now.

(19:35):
It's not about you, and that was one of the
most humbling talks I've ever had. I'll never forget. I
was sitting at the calm line with my former boss,
rod graves, and I can almost get a tear thinking
about this. I was sitting and I was complaining about
one of the guys didn't get the credentials for the coaches.
Somebody else embarrassed me because they didn't have the right information,

(19:56):
all the reports weren't in on time and is a
bitch session, and I'll never forget. He looked at me, Thomas,
and he looked at me in the eyes. Steve, let
me tell you something. You're you are a tremendous talent.
You're probably the best evaluator I've ever been around. But
what's what? What's your what is your story going to

(20:18):
be one day? If you can't lead people and you
can't coach people and raise their level of expectations, who
cares how good of an evaluator you are? You're going
to just be a good scout. You gotta be a
good teacher, you gotta be a pro and until you
grasp that concept, you're just gonna be a scout. What
an amazing point, and I had that own my own revelation.

(20:41):
You and I and most of the general managers in
today's world got to the seat because we were adept
more than a depth. We were very good evaluators. Now
some of us have done well over the years and
and prolonged to be on two or three or four
years because we were able to immerse our selves in
something that was leadership, morale, pulling things together in so

(21:05):
many different ways, being adaptable, understanding change and being understanding
of adaptable change. Some people who didn't, and there's some
good friends of ours who were really, really good evaluators.
Maybe their decision making was wrong, things went awry for
one reason or another. You have obviously been able to
look back, step back and manage all that, which is

(21:28):
which is a major feather in your cap, because it's
not easy to do. which is a perfect lead into
you have the opportunity and have had the opportunity to
be around and historical NFL family and person in Michael Bidwell. Um.
It's it's amazing to look at the history, when you
really dig into the history of that family, of course,

(21:48):
and Michael has has got such a reputation as being
so sound in this business and you know, involved in
a lot of committees within the NFL. Talk to me
a little bit about the importance of a very communicative
and and honestly candid relationship with ownership in this league. Well,
you know, and I know every every situation, situation is

(22:10):
really different. And the thing that I respect the most
about him is here is a guy who was raised
in the football family all the way back through his
grandfather and uh, you know the Chicago Cardinalson and the
inception of the team. But you know, he didn't take
the easy way out until law school, became a federal

(22:32):
prosecutor and then joined the organization. So one a different way,
learned on his own and yet also has those core
values that he was taught through his family in the business.
And you know, quite frankly, it's it's important to have,
in at least in my opinion, a relationship with the

(22:54):
ultimate decision maker who um supports you number one. It's
not absent, it's there every day, um and truly has
um a vested interest in what's going on daily, whether
it's the employees on the marketing side, the the on

(23:15):
the h football side. UH, he cares about everybody and
that's really important and again, Um, the other fact of
the matter is he continues to understand the legacy and
the historical value of the National Football League and making
sure that we don't get away from the core values

(23:37):
of the League, which, again, I have a ton of
respect for. So, to that point, we're thinking about ownership
groups around the NFL. As general managers, Um, I had
an opportunity to be around Arthur blank and an amazing
businessman and I developed a great relationship with him. Was
I disappointed when I got fired in October, no question

(23:59):
about it. Do I still have an important relationship with
Arthur because of how he changed my life, not only
from the financial element and the fame fortune element that
we might have as a general manager, but from a deeper,
deeper side, and that's important to me and and I
appreciate that. Beyond and I've learned a lot over the years,
the process in the national football league for hiring general

(24:21):
managers and head coaches has evolved over time and the
selection process within these organizations differs from place to place,
organization organization, of course, some use selection firms outside, some
just get together with four or five people within their
organization and start round tabling an idea of who is

(24:43):
the best person as a head coach or GM whichever
you're looking for, could be both. Do you have a
general thought about how that process is going around the
league or do you think it is sound? And this
is one that could be a little touchy, so I
have some opinions about it. You can toss it back
at me as well. No, no, you know, I've had,

(25:04):
I've been a part of three head coaching searchers, Um,
and all three have been done by by Michael Bigger
and myself. Um. Yet at the same time it would
be Um, you know, I'd be remiss to say like
I don't know what it's like to use a head
hunting firm and maybe there are some some benefits to that.

(25:26):
So I don't want to be naive or uneducated and
make a statement that that I will regret, because I
am open minded and I'm obviously big into growing and
understanding and developing UH. But at the end of the day, Um,
to have a successful organization I think you have to
have a very healthy uh Tripod, which is essentially your ownership,

(25:51):
your head coach and your general manager, and those three
guys have all have to work in concert and have
to have open dialogue and if they don't, you're gonna
have problems, and I am convicted on that. So to me,
for the best way, at least in my view, of
acquiring your coaching talent, it has to be through that tripod. Again,

(26:13):
I don't know what the benefits are for using an
outside firm because I haven't been a part of that.
But to be the guy and one of the guys
of the three people who have to work together, I
think that intimate knowledge is very beneficial. Intimate knowledge is
so incredibly important. I had the opportunity with two head
coaches that I valued my relationship a great deal and

(26:34):
I know in the very end, through all of our process,
and we did use search firms Um in Atlanta, that
and the very end, Arthur did make his way around
and pulled me aside and said, Thomas, as the general manager,
who do you want? Who is going to be the
best working person together for you to create this partnership?

(26:58):
That is vital. I don't care how you look at it,
if you do not have a head coach and a
general manager, general manager and head coach working together, of
course they're going to be disagreements. Of course you're gonna
have some fiery conversations about whatever it may be. Could
be the picking of talent, it could be the developing
of talent, etcetera, etcetera. If that is not a concrete

(27:20):
relationship and if I were to be vehemently opposed to
hiring Mike Smith or Dan Quinn during that process, I
think we would have never achieved what we achieved now.
That said, we didn't get to the ultimate goal, unfortunately,
and things worked out the way they did. The reality
is I appreciate Arthur from that standpoint because that was important.
On the other it's no different from, in my opinion,

(27:44):
when you're in draft meetings and you have, you know,
an area scout across check, director of college scouting, two coaches,
the coordinator, a head coach, director of Director of pro
a general manager all give their opinion on an evaluation.
Do they agree? Though they don't agree, at the end
of the day somebody's got to make that final decision

(28:04):
and when you make that final decision, not everybody's gonna
be happy with that decision. But once you make that
decision it's an organizational choice and everybody's got to be
dialed in and they have to be Um, respectful of that.
And now a sudden it's a falcon decision or it's
a cardinal decision Um, and that's, to me no different.
It's like, you know, at the end of the day, um,

(28:28):
that's what you and I got putting these positions for it.
You have got to have fixin and when it doesn't
go right, it's gonna be Thomas de Mitrof, it's gonna
be Steve Kin, it's not gonna be in the area Scout,
it's not gonna be the head Hunter, um who works
for corn ferry. It's your name and my name that
are gonna be affected. So, at the end of the day,

(28:48):
we get into these business to this position sort of
knowing the landscape, and if you don't have thicked skin
and you don't understand what the big picture is, it's
not for you. It's a it's a great point. Everything
you said there is exactly where most GMS, I would hope,
would approach it and would understand. I say this with

(29:12):
a huge amount of respect, speaking of respect to the owners,
if I were to give one piece of advice and
they were accepting of it, I would say the process
of putting together your search group is, I'm not saying
equally important, but it is right up there with the importance,
because if you put the wrong people in the boardroom

(29:34):
who are in the process of selecting the next head
coach or general manager, if you're looking for both, and
that group has ulterior motives to keep their job, that
ownership group owner is not getting the true information. It
is jaded by ulterior motives. And I could say that

(29:55):
and I would agree that most general managers, as we've talked,
would agree with the same idea. This needs to be
vetted and you need to put the right people around
you that are going to help you and understand ultimately,
that relationship is vital, and that meaning the general manager
and the head coach, and you're not surviving if it's acrimonious.

(30:19):
You're gonna have your ups and downs. Again, very, very important. Again,
I believe. Respectfully, I'm not preaching to the ownership group
here at all, but I am saying there's vital information
out there that I think can help the selection process.
And and again a lot of it goes back to
the core values of faith and trust. And when I
say faith and trust, owners are no different from general

(30:42):
managers in that they're at the country club, they're at
the restaurant, they're in the facility and they're hearing from
people in marketing, they're hearing from players, they hear from
different people to give in their ear and everybody has
an opinion. Let's take this guy, let's do this, we
should be doing this as an organization as hard as

(31:04):
anybody and all of a sudden they have to put
faith in a general manager and a head coach who
may honestly be saying things that contradict what everybody else
is saying. Okay, when you have a guy come to
you and say, I know you really don't want to
hear this, but we can't take Nick Bosa. We're gonna

(31:25):
give up on a guy who we drafted with a
tenth overall selection last year and gave a ten million
dollar signing bonus too, to select a five ft ten
quarterback from from Oklahoma. Wow, that's pretty powerful, very powerful.
So to put that in perspective, and the fact that
you know Michael is a very, very intelligent guy and

(31:48):
he's very savvy, so it wasn't like he just took
my word alone. Of course he he believed in me,
he trusted me, but he also did his home own homework.
Michael will fly with us to work out, he'll spend
time with the person and I think at the end
of the day he obviously felt in his heart that
it was the right decision. But if you put in retrospect,

(32:09):
if Kyler Murray didn't work out, how far would that
have set this organization back? So the fact that he
had faith in me, cliff Kingsbury, Kyler Murray and the
organization to make that decision with his backing, game changer.
which begs the question of we have made significant games

(32:32):
in salaries for general managers in this league. For a
while there they were teetering around where they were and
it wasn't moving and there was a major chasm between
general managers and head coaches. Again a little bit of
a touchy subject Um. We saw this year an uptick
and it was it was good again. We saw that

(32:53):
there were increases in the GM salaries, significant we saw
increases that were slowly bridging gap between general managers and
head coaches. And yet the gap is still big. How
do you feel about that as a general manager? Do
you feel that that gap is justified or now that
the League has changed, where back in the day general managers,

(33:15):
I say this time and again, we're giving five head
coaches to hire and five quarterbacks. In today I have
a strong opinion that it's too you get two head
coaches and two quarterbacks and, God willing, you put them together.
Otherwise you're out the door. What are your thoughts about
today's NFL and that gap? Well, unfortunately, because I'd be

(33:36):
ocurred about three both respects. But Um, I got a
great story. So the first day that cliff Kingsbury was
on the job and my son at the time, I think,
was nine years old and it was Saturday that we
were preparing for free agency in NFL draft. I don'll
never forget my family came into, my kids came in

(33:58):
to see me at the office on a Saturday. My
son Brady walked down to cliff's office, didn't know where
he went. POPs up in cross from Cliff's desk in
this chair. Cliff had no clue who my son was.
He said, let me ask you a question. He has
a little lisp. Matthew. Question how come your office is
twice the size of my dad's and he's your boss?

(34:21):
Cliff from that day. One Brady kind is one of
my is not only one of my favorites in life,
but cliff Kingsbury's as well, and it's it's a funny
story that you know. Again, you are technically their boss.
You had at the same time and the Penny limmas
swing it. Like you said, it's it's Um. At one

(34:42):
time the general manager looked out for the organization core
and philosophically it was the long term approach. What's best
for the Organization for the next three, four or five years?
Coaches want to win. Now it's always that sort of struggle. Um,
but when you're paying a coach eight, nine ten million
dollars and you're paying a general manager two or three

(35:03):
million dollars who's when a guaranteed money is attached, there's
a pretty easy decision to make whenever it's time to
cut the cord. Now, that being said again, it's an
organization by organization. Uh, Michael Bidwell, the bid of a family.
The cardinals have been a tremendously loyal organization and have

(35:23):
certainly been great to me. So I I certainly don't
have any complaints, but you know, I do understand that
you know, philosophically, you know really like is the tail
wagon the dog in this situation. But you know, it's
times are continuing to change and, like you said, there's
an uptick. And I'm still the kid from Pennsylvania that

(35:44):
had two goals in Nife. One was to be a
general manager. Told my mom at nine I was gonna
be a jam one day, which, uh, her answer was,
you better work on your math and you're saying. And
the second goal was to have an in ground pool.
Being a guy from Ohio, you can at that, those
plastic four ft yes, I have two in ground pools,

(36:06):
so I have officially made it life. You've met it
in life. What is the biggest concerned, slash fear in
your mind over the next ten years for the National
Football League? Wow, that's a great question. You know, when

(36:27):
you look at the popularity of the draft, the popularity
of League itself, and you look at, uh, fantasy football,
you look at the fact that, when you look at
TV ratings, that the NFL draft attracts more than baseball,
basketball and hockey playoffs combined. Um, those are staggering numbers.

(36:49):
So the popularity of our league as is in an
all time I think Um, I would say the only
thing that I would I would probably look at and
think about is making sure that the quality of the
game continues, being that we have a chance to develop players,

(37:12):
we have a chance to grow guys within the system.
As you know, college guys have x amount of hours
that they can participate. Now all of a sudden you
get to the NFL and it's a different game. Something
about in the Tennessee state, somewhere from Notre Dame. They're
all different skill sets, uh, and there's still a level
of development that these guys need, particularly with processing the playbook,

(37:34):
understanding technique, and I just hope that for the fundamentals
and the quality of the game, that we still have
those chances to develop young players. No question about it,
there are some really cool things happening in this league.
I am all about change. You know that. If I,
if I were to humbly say, part of my reputation
was being on the front end and I believe that.

(37:56):
I believe we have to be progressive in so many ways.
Some people argue otherwise. I think there are ways to
always do it with tact and always remin remembering that
for us to make sure that the quality of the
game does not lose it's you know, it's existence, and
that is a big, big deal for me as a

(38:17):
general manager. It is very important to understand the importance
of having the right coaching staff in place, and I'm
not just talking about the head coach. It's about the
coordinators and it's about the position coaches. I have a
very strong opinion about this. This isn't about me, it's
about Steve Kim understanding that your head coach can be

(38:38):
very solid and it is vital that your coordinator and
your position coaches have a good understanding not only of
coaching on the field, not only of scheme, not only
of development, not only of evaluation. It's a well rounded
oiled element to putting together the right staff, and that
right staff can be the right staff or it can

(38:59):
also lead to the demise of the organization. Hands Down,
there is no avoiding this. The assistant coaches in this
league and the acquisition of the assistant coaches are vital
to this success, given the fact that we know how
important it is to put staffs together, but we don't
have final say. Normally, as a general manager, we give

(39:20):
that over to the head coach. And yet it's so
important and sometimes those head coaches, called the way it is,
they'll put their loyal myrmidons next to them because that's
important for them and I get that. Where do you
feel we're going with that and what is your stance
on hiring coaches? So as it as it comes, you know,

(39:41):
you look at the big picture and you say, okay,
let's put together a staff. I've been a part of
putting together a staff where I've helped to hire the
head coach and had very little review of assistant coaches
because Bruce Arians had a staff in place and there
was that respect, and mutual respect, I should say. Then
there was cliff Kingsbury, who didn't have a vast knowledge

(40:02):
of the assistant coaches throughout the national football league that
had experience. So I was very involved and, uh, to
be quite honest with you, very pleased with the guys
that we have in that building. Um, you know, I
have a different view on it. Number One, Um, I
believe in in the mentality of, you know, being careful

(40:25):
about hiring friends and family, because there can be a
gray area there whenever you hire guys, and generally people
want to gravitate towards people they trust and family members
or people that have been longtime friends. Well, now, all
of a sudden, when expectations aren't met and you have
to make tough decisions, and you have to be as
you're a CEO, head, coach, GM owner, you have to

(40:47):
make really tough decisions that aren't popular and they're the
decisions that have kept you and a at night. They're
not fine. It's what it sort of turns our stomachs
in this business, but it's what is necessary to have
success at your particular organization and that can cloud your
judgment at times, which I truly believe in, so that
that can be hard. Um, you know, I think that

(41:09):
at the end of the day, it's got to be
a decision that is again made by that Tripod, which
is ownership, coaching, general manager and making sure that they're
all in this thing together and that there's mutual respect
with the decisions that are being made, no question about it.
Speaking of putting together staffs, this league is starting to
make some major strides in the diversity in inclusion element

(41:33):
of hiring. Right I remember looking back a matter of
years ago and I looked at the photo that was
taken at the League you know, we do these group photos,
we do the GM flow photo and we do the
head coaching photo, and I remember looking at that photo
a few years ago, it might have been three years ago,
and there was one African American GM and it was
Chris Career, and I thought to myself, we have a

(41:55):
long way to go here. This year we've made some
really good strides, very, very important for our league on
the GM side, maybe not as much on the on
the head coaching side. What is your stance at this point?
What is your thought on where we are the League?
Are we making strides? Is it enough? What is your
overall feeling about it? I totally agree. I think that

(42:16):
as a League, Um, we still have a lot of
work to do, you know. At the same time, I
don't want to Um discourage the thought that we've made
some significant strides and put a lot of emphasis uh
and doing the right thing. Uh. A lot of it
comes down to educate, and that falls on people like myself, coaches. Uh.

(42:42):
And when I say educate, you know you and I
both were fortunate enough to have people along the way
who helped us out. Um, they all came in different shapes, races,
color or whatever. May Have Been Um, but we had
people that helped us, or we wouldn't have been in
this position, regardless of what our skills it was, and
that's the one thing that I would say that probably

(43:03):
I've learned the most in recent years is that I've
had to challenge myself to do a better job of
paying it forward, meaning that don't worry about Steve Khan
so much. Steve, you're going to do the job that
you do. You're a proud guy. Nobody's gonna be harder
on you than you. But take time out of your
day to help Adrian Wilson, take time out of your

(43:25):
day to help point Harris and teach him the roads.
Tell them that the obstacles that are creating in these positions,
tell them that the challenges you have on a day
to day basis. Um Educate these guys, because they deserve that,
and that's something that it's not so much about a league,
it's US taking it upon ourselves individually to challenge ourselves

(43:46):
to do a better job, because it starts with me.
I can't point in the league and say it's at
least fault Steve Khn you take it upon yourself to
help and fix what you can fix, and that's the
way I've addressed it. I mean that idea is exactly
where my head was. It was interesting the last two years.
So you know, as we age in this business, you

(44:07):
my junior by a few years and I and at
some papable. I didn't say that because I laugh, like
we're all in the end, we're all about the same.
But I've thought a lot about that. I've thought a
lot about making sure that we are doing things that is,
you know, the right thing to do, and I've also
thought a lot about the importance of legacy and the

(44:29):
importance of mentoring. And I get a little emotional thinking
about this because I was in a really good spot
prior to getting fired. This is a humble or sort
of authentic, vulnerable side of me. It is emotional for
me because I had put together and helped put together,
as a team co team builder, some very good football
teams and yet I wanted more than anything to continue

(44:50):
in this job, to help people grow, to your point,
to help the people within our organization, to cut against
the grain and to help the underrepresented within our organization,
be that people of Color, be that women within the organization,
to help grow or and or the people within the

(45:10):
organization that I thought I had some great opportunities. I
was going to help them, educate them, teach them, tell
them quite honestly, not about this what we did right,
but honestly you know the mess ups, you know the
the damn elements of our job that we know we
did wrong. I want to share that. I wanted to

(45:32):
share that and when I got fired and when I
went back those next two or three weeks, that was
what was on my mind of how I really wanted
to help people. And of course I missed the job,
but it was the element of growing and maturing in
this thinking I can do something more for this league.
And Uh, I wasn't able to do that. So hopefully,

(45:52):
you know, you're able to continue to do that and
you have an understanding of it. I think it's wonderful
where your organization is. Um You guys are doing some
really cool things. As we're coming to the end of
this conversation, let me ask you a question that is
really important for me and for you to answer if
you can. What is the biggest myth in this league
that needs to be debunked? You know, and I don't

(46:17):
know if this is good, bad and different. But you
know when when you when you're put in the forefront
and you're in front of the public eye and you're
viewed in a certain way. Uh, I got in a
national football league at a young age and all I
thought about was, wow, I got a chance to work
in nwerfl. What an opportunity and truly, to this day

(46:39):
it's it's the honor of my life. But at the
same time I thought I was getting into a League
of men's men and guys who were just Alpha males
and tough guys, and ultimately it taught me that really
it's just comes back to humanity. We all have our stuff,
whether it's personal professional. I'm a sensitive guy. People look

(47:01):
at pictures in me and they see a scowl on
my face and they think I look mad at the world,
when in reality they don't understand that I'm probably just
watched to, you know, the movie about Hank Aaron and
cried because I'm sensitive. You know, and I have a
side to me that it's soft and we all have
a level of insecurity. Let's be honest. Every person in

(47:22):
the National Football League who cares has a level of
insecurity and the fact that we're this tough, uh Mancho
uh type person who doesn't need help or doesn't need
uh strong supporting cast. It's just inaccurate because we all
meet help. So sensitivities, insecurities. I would also fold in

(47:46):
empathy and awareness. These are all very interesting traits that
I believe are vital to being successful as a general
manager in this league. I would suggest outside and business
in general or other sport, but my own experience I really,
really important. It comes back to authenticity and being who
you are and being able to sit down with your

(48:08):
group and show where your vulnerabilities are are very, very important,
I think as a leader. I know things have changed,
I know things are adjusted. Old School was don't show it.
The Jack Welsh approach was very different. I have a
great deal of respect for Jack Welch and disciples of
that era as far as leadership. This is a different generation,

(48:29):
different generations within our building, and you have to be empathic,
you have to be sensitive enough, not not contrived in
any way. The reality is it needs to be there.
It's funny you said that about Jack and it sticks
out as young Scout. One of the books that I
read was Um and you think about the NFL way,

(48:49):
as I just talked about, old school nfl philosophy. Right,
as you're a general manager and you're hiring. Okay, what
is the hiring method? Hire a guy that work hard.
You hire guys that are gonna do the job. But
Jack Welch always said hire the guy who you think
is smarter than you. Well, what's the paranoia to that?

(49:10):
He's gonna take mine. So now all of a sudden,
that insecurity, he overtakes your life and you went the
polar opposite of what Jack Well said, meaning that this
young buck is gonna come in from Harvard, he knows players,
he knows scouting, he knows the business side of it,
he's gonna Ascend through this organization and I'm gonna be replaceable.
Have confidence in the system and the structure and lean

(49:31):
on him and hi are the best people. Love it.
I mean that's profundity. This is this is one of
the final questions. I call it the Tim Ferris question.
Tim Ferris, lifestyle Guru, podcast, extraordinarire guy. In the last
three to five years, has there been a belief, approach,

(49:54):
Um process that you have adhered to that has changed
your life? It could be professional it could be personal. Yeah,
I think Um, it goes back to a simplistic view
of sort of the concept of the man in the Mirror,
which is you have a lot of friends come and go,

(50:18):
family members are generally always there for you. Relationships Change,
jobs change, but ultimately, at the end of the day,
through this journey that you and I go on, and
it's a journey, a lot of lessons are learned and
humility is the number one thing in the world that
you have to have to be successful, because if you
don't have humility you'll never answer the man in the

(50:39):
mirror and grow from it. And all I can ask
for at the end of the day, however, this thing
turns out. Win a super bowl, don't win a super bowl. Ultimately,
we hope it's a super bowl. Thomas, I want to
be able to look at the man in the mirror
and say one day then it my way, man, I'm
proud and if I don't have that ability, I'll be
on that rocking chair saying should have, would have, could have,

(51:00):
for the rest of my life. I never want to
that way once again. Comments Stirs emotion to me because
that's exactly how I feel and it's it's wonderful that
you have that understanding in that grasp. God willing many
years to come. Luckily, you and I have have kind
of gone against the grain of not for long, because
nine years is a long time. Thirteen years, thank God

(51:21):
Almighty that I was in this spot it ended. I'm
in a good place as I'm learning and having an
opportunity to speak with people like you with a great
deal of knowledge and and and wisdom, and I'm I'm
so honored that you'd take the time. So I have
my final question for you, which may not be applicable.
You're a very tough, confident man's man, and yet I

(51:43):
ask you, is there one question that you feared that
I was gonna ask you? You know, if I had
to think about it, Um, as I said earlier, to
last the national football league, as long as you did,
as long as I have m we knew we were

(52:05):
getting as hard as it is now with social media
and people taking shots at you. That's the way life
is has become. But the one thing that probably hits
home is if you just ask me if I was
a good dad, and if you ask me if I
was a good dad, Um, it would be hard to
answer because I chose a life there was to chase

(52:30):
my dreams and do what I loved, but at the
same time I had to make sacrifices along the way,
and no sacrifices come with time constraints. And I know,
being a Dad yourself and a proud dad that you are,
it's not the fight that the GM steve kin makes,
so that GM Thomas to mitrof makes, it's the constraints

(52:53):
that a man makes, because if you try to do
a good job and you try to set your goals
and try to be proud, you're always going to have
that that tug of war in life and balance of
whether you're good dad, when you spend enough time, when
you're teaching them the core of values and you're being
there for him, vice versa, supporting them financially, and that's

(53:14):
probably the biggest challenge in my life. Steve Kim Chandler, Arizona,
beautiful night, unbelievable wisdom. I'm choked up thinking about that
because that's exactly how I feel. The importance of being
a good father far outweighs super bowls. Opportunity to be

(53:36):
be with my kids now, during this really, really introspective
time is so, so important. Thank you for spending time tonight.
I can't begin to thank you. This is this is
one of the most unbelievable conversations I've had in a
long time. God bless your brother. Thank you, man. You know,
it's funny. It's like if you think about life and
you put things in perspective, as we always do, and uh,

(53:59):
there are moment and some time that have sort of
passed through my world and put things in perspective. UH, Raleigh,
North Carolina, I will never forget. I was on the
field practicing at NC state and I was a junior
and my coach, William Mixed, at the time, said there's

(54:21):
a blessed of scout here from the Cleveland browns named
Thomas De Mitchrof and he likes you, thinks you got
your prospect. And here I was, this kid from small
town in Pennsylvania, and the fact that he said that
I was an NFL prospect and all these dreams were
coming true. Uh, and the fact that now I'm sitting

(54:42):
in my driveway with you. It's kind of like these
worlds combining and the friendship over the years we've developed
and the admiration that I have for you. It's just
it just goes to show you, man, that Um, it's
full of adventure and it's could and it's really rewarding

(55:03):
and at the end of the day, man like, all
you can say is you say, look in the mirror
and hopefully the man in the mirror tells you like,
I'm proud of you. So anyways, I'm proud of our
friendship and I appreciate you being thanks all right. Well,
I really hope you guys enjoyed that journey down to
the SHOENIX. Spending time with a guy like Steve Kim

(55:25):
again is eye opening. The contrast between general managers in
this league continue to stoke my interests, and I hope
they do yours. Very, very different people from place to place,
to city to city, to team to team. I mean literally,
we're going from Steve Kim down in the southwest to
another part of the country, as we do all the
way over to Tennessee and Nashville and spend some time

(55:47):
with John Robinson, a really, really interesting football guy again
through and through, but he's he sports his own trails.
To check that one out. It will be really interesting.
You have been listening to the GM journey with Thomas
demitro continue to follow Thomas as he interviews GMS from

(56:07):
your favorite NFL teams. The GM journey has been produced
by Alan Castenbaum, Thomas demitrop and Octagon Entertainment. Don't forget
to download and subscribe on Apple Podcasts, spotify or wherever
you get your podcast from. The GM journey is distributed

(56:30):
by the eight side network.