March 19, 2024 • 19 mins
In this exclusive bonus episode, producer Emma DeMuth sits down with Keith Wallman, Editor-in-Chief of Diversion Books, to discuss the "why" behind the true crime genre.
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Speaker 1 (00:07):
Diversion Audio.
Speaker 2 (00:21):
Welcome to a special bonus episode of the greatest true
Crime Stories Ever told. I'm Emma Demuth from Diversion Audio,
where I work behind the scenes on the show. Diversion
Audio was born from the book publishing company Diversion Books,
back in twenty twenty. Our mission is to tell stories
that spark dialogue, rooted and compelling stories. In fact, stories
(00:42):
from the Diversion Library served as key sources for many
of our stories in season one. Today, we have a
special guest who is no stranger to the world of
ripping narratives and to many of the stories from the season.
Joining us is Keith Wollman, the editor in chief of
Diversion Books. Keith is an expert in curating stories that captivate.
(01:04):
In this episode, we'll unravel the mystery behind the enduring
fascination with true crime books and podcasts. Why do people
find solace in the genre? What is it about these
narratives that keep us on the edge of our seats,
and what does that say about society about us? Stay
tuned as we embark on a conversation with Keith Wallman
(01:26):
about the why behind the true crime genre. This is
the greatest True Crime Stories Ever Told. Thank you Keith
(01:59):
for us today. I'm really interested to hear about your
perspective and true crime, specifically from the book Angle. And
this episode also marks the end of season one of
our new show, The Greatest True Crime Stories Ever Told.
Speaking of I'd like to start by asking you what
your favorite story was from the season.
Speaker 3 (02:18):
It's a pleasure to be here, Emma, thanks for having me.
I've got to go with the episode that was titled
Knife Through Hot Butter. It's based on a diversion title,
a Diversion Books title called Dancing with Death. And you've
got this multi layer Jeckyl and Hide character at the
center of Marjorie Orban. She's a former stripper and Vegas
(02:39):
showgirl turned into a suburban housewife. And you've got these
different settings, those different personalities, the showgirl versus the suburban
housewife mil you and the murder of her seventh husband,
and I think there's just so much tension between the
different sides of her personality and the different environments that
(03:00):
she inhabits. So to me, that's the best one of
the season. It's great.
Speaker 2 (03:07):
Yeah, I think characters that have very multi dimensional personalities
do make the best stories. It kind of reminds me
of my personal favorite three episodes of the season was
the first female American serial Killer, which was actually our host,
Mary Kay mcraer. She wrote a book all about Jane Toppin,
and it was really fascinating because it starts off with
(03:28):
her childhood and you kind of get a good understanding
of not necessarily the why behind her crimes, but it
makes a little bit more sense knowing that backstory. A
lot of true crime is about stories with men killing women, unfortunately,
and with our show, our focus was to tell stories
in which women were not just the victim. I'm curious
in your experience, has there been any type of characters
(03:51):
that you've seen most often in the stories that have
been submitted to you and why do you think that
is sure thing?
Speaker 3 (03:59):
Back to that check and Hide example, to have a
woman as the jeckal and Hyde is really unique because
most of the time it's the mild mannered man, the
doting husband, the businessman who's got the psychopathic impulses at night.
So this flips that script. But you know, there's almost
(04:22):
always the murdered or assaulted woman, and it's a good
thing to have a series that changes the perspective here
and gives us a look at humans in general who
have these evil impulses. In these true crime books, you've
often got the grieving family members, but there's usually one
(04:42):
or two who are determined, determined to get to the
bottom of the case, and those are the ones you
latch onto as the reader or the listener or the viewer.
Sometimes there's a journalist, a detective, an FBI agent trying
to piece it together. They've got their flaws as well well,
so they're really human and you can empathize with them,
(05:04):
and they're trying to piece together the clues, and you
can do it along with them. And I think that's
one of the thrills of true crime stories, is trying
to get to the bottom of it and having an
ally within the story itself.
Speaker 2 (05:16):
You kind of just answer this, but I'm curious, what
do you look for in true crime writers and in
true crime stories.
Speaker 3 (05:23):
One of the things I look for is an author's
understanding that a reader engaging in a book is looking
for escape. It's an escape and to double down on that. Sure,
you want action, you want the crime, you want some
heroes to follow, but you also want milieu. You want
(05:45):
to go someplace, another time, another geographic region, an interesting
culture or workplace. So the story of a crime set
in Prohibition era Kentucky, for example, takes you to the
world of bootleggers and moonshine in a different place. So
(06:05):
it's a form of escape. And if the author can
really paint that picture, well, they've done a great job.
So the setting of a true crime story is very important.
Night Through Hot Butter is a great example. Take me
to Las Vegas and the early two thousands among the showgirls.
I've never been there before, but I need an escape.
(06:26):
It's a diversion, right, diversion, books, diversion.
Speaker 2 (06:29):
Audience, see what you do.
Speaker 3 (06:32):
And then there's also if you're going to go with
a recognizable setting, if it's going to be in a
suburb that's familiar to what you're used to, you know,
the average everyday American town, then there is a way
that the author has to lean into the evil of
the perpetrator. So there are different elements depending on what
(06:53):
ingredients you have. You add a bit more of that,
a bit more of that. So the author is really
a chef taking the facts of the story, putting it
all together so that it's delicious, sometimes it's spicy, sometimes
you're a little nauseous, but it gets the emotions going.
And it's a challenging craft because we're dealing with crime
(07:17):
murder often, so how to make that entertaining or at
least to put us through a realm of emotions as
a reader. It's a hard challenge, and the best authors
do it well with different ingredients in different times.
Speaker 2 (07:34):
A recent study by you gov, a lengthy studies in
the show Notes, has shown more than fifty percent of
Americans enjoy true crime content. Thirty five percent of Americans
consume true crime content, whether that be podcasts, movies, TV shows,
or books, at least once a week. In addition, sixty
two percent of American adults report being fans of media
specifically about serial killers. This same survey found that seventy
(07:58):
six percent Americans can are themselves fans of true crime.
That's a lot of people that love true crime. Keith,
in your opinion, why do you think people like true
crime contient so much?
Speaker 3 (08:10):
I haven't quite done the research that you have. I'm impressed,
but absent of those statistics, I'd say there's that challenge
of trying to figure out who did it, and to
do that before the book or the podcast explains or
reveals who did it. So there's the puzzle aspect to
the whole thing. And just like any storytelling genre, I
(08:32):
think there's also that sympathy empathy element. You can put yourself,
If you can put yourself in the shoes of the
people who are in this story, that's a powerful, powerful thing,
and we want to do that. We want to escape
our everyday lives, and even if it's in a milieu
of evil, of something awful happening, it's a way to
(08:54):
have a change in our ordinary existence. There's the fear
factor elements. You can't ignore that. It's a jolt of energy.
And the books that really give you those cliffhangers at
the end of chapters and those little boosts of fear
are really great. So I think there's a lot of reasons,
(09:16):
and I think unless you're listening to or reading or
watching true crime to study law enforcement techniques, that you're
really in it for entertainment, but also to trigger that
sense of empathy in your being. And those are different things,
(09:37):
but they can work well together.
Speaker 2 (09:39):
Another thing that one of our other producers, Mark told
me recently, was that men overwhelmingly love this. I forget
what the show is called, but there's this show about
airplane tragedies and how to survive different tragedies that can
happen on airplanes, and women overwhelmingly love true crime podcast.
(10:00):
I think a lot of the reason why men and
women are both attracted to both kinds of content is
because they want to understand how to survive if they're
ever in these kind of circumstances. So I do think
in a way there is an educational component. You want
to understand how serial colors think, what kind of tactics
they use to lure people. It's an education on how
(10:22):
to not be a victim in the future. And I
think that's fascinating and who would want to.
Speaker 3 (10:26):
Learn that in a dry, boring way. Nobody exactly. Yeah,
So to have the entertainment, the storytelling aspect is really
really important. I'm with you. It's it's strange. I wonder
why men are so interested in the ancient Roman Empire too?
Do they want to learn how to be gladiators?
Speaker 2 (10:43):
Yes, you've heard of True Crime is My Roman Empire?
Are you on TikTok Keith? You know that?
Speaker 3 (10:51):
You know that, Yes, yes, exactly, yep.
Speaker 2 (10:57):
I love it. You know, something else as producer that
I think about a lot, and we've touched upon this
a little bit, is at the end of the day,
we want to tell an entertaining story. But these are
true victims, true people, whether they're they're gone now or
if they have family members that are still suffering to
this day because of these losses. These are real people.
(11:19):
And how can we tell these stories in a way
that is respectful and tasteful. You know, I personally never
really thought about it until a few years ago. My
very best friend in the whole world, her boyfriend was
actually really tragically murdered and witnessing the aftermath of that
and how people around her treated her, strangers treated her,
(11:41):
you know, she and one day she got over ten
thousand follow requests on Instagram. And it's fascinating to me
how much people are drawn to tragedy in a way
like people want to feel close to tragedy. And it's
been a struggle to try to understand that while also
(12:02):
you know, working in entertainment and right telling these stories.
And I don't know if I have an answer of
how we can tell a true crime story in the
most tasteful way, and if that is even possible, I'm
curious on your thoughts. I know it's a hard question.
Speaker 3 (12:20):
I think one of the important things is to remember
that these are stories of heightened human emotion, and we're
attracted to that. But we're not publishing horror, and we're
not doing podcasts that are in the horror genre. This
isn't about leaning into gruesomeness and pure evil. Although you
(12:42):
can explore evil in psychological ways. I don't think you
want to have an author convey a sense that they're
taking some sort of pleasure in writing about this. It's
different than that. There's a distinct difference between a challenging
and intriguing read versus pure shock.
Speaker 2 (13:01):
Yep.
Speaker 3 (13:02):
And I'm not interested in publishing or frankly reading pure shock.
I want to make those human connections as a reader.
So if it's in the midst of tragedy, there has
to be some sensitivity there, I think, and that's really
important in this genre for sure.
Speaker 2 (13:23):
This is a special episode of the greatest true crime
Stories ever told. We'll be right back after the break.
So what is the most fascinating true crime story you've
ever published?
Speaker 3 (13:44):
It's a great question. There are so many. I've done
lots of books in this genre. I'm going to point
to the first title that I published with Diversion called
The Bourbon King, The Life and Crimes of George Remus,
who's we call pro Prohibition's Evil Genius. So you're in
Cincinnati and Kentucky in the nineteen twenties. It's Prohibition and
(14:07):
he's got one of the largest illegal booze operations going
in the whole country, this guy named Remus, and he
goes to prison, and while he's in prison, a federal
agent seduces his wife and ends up having a relationship
with his wife. He finds out about it, he gets
out of prison somehow and he murders him. And then
(14:30):
you've got this fantastic trial and he's pumping money into
bribing the jurors and everything like that. But it's really
that Miliu getting to go to basically the bootleg capital
of America in the nineteen twenties, like jazz Age America,
where they're pumping out moonshine. That's really fantastic. So that
(14:53):
speaks to the element of Milliu again. And there's another
one that I'd point to that this book years ago.
It was called Terror in the City of Champions and
it was about the city of Detroit in the Great
Depression era. And what's really fascinating are all the things
(15:14):
that are happening around this one central murder. So Detroit
is suffering, people are looking for jobs, they're down on
their luck, but the sports teams in Detroit are winning
championships left and right, So there's this inspirational aspect to
the time and place. At the same time, you had
all of these people moving from the South up north
(15:35):
for jobs, and some of them brought elements of the
KKK to the North. So there was this offshoot group
in Detroit called the Black Legion. And at the center
of this story, in the Terror of the City of Champions,
there's a murder of a black man and one of
the Black Legion members who's I guess then you would
(15:59):
have called them, but he's not one of the higher ups,
but he's the star witness. And it's just an amazing story.
And again for me, the historical crime is really fascinating
because it's truly an escape. You're distant time, distant place,
and yet all of those human elements come through. So
(16:22):
those are my favorite kinds of true crime, but the
ones that you have on the podcast are all fantastic too.
Speaker 2 (16:29):
This makes me think of another question when it comes
to historical crime. How much do you think the crime
is influenced from the environment versus the human being. It's interesting,
even in the first season we have characters from the
two thousands all the way to the eighteen hundreds. It
seems to me people haven't changed that much. But for instance,
(16:52):
the Prohibition story, if this man lived in the early
two thousands, do you think he still would have murdered
someone or do you think it's very circumstantial to Prohibition specifically.
Speaker 3 (17:03):
It's a good question, and I think it is circumstantial.
George Remis was a lawyer and he got his start
in bootlegging by representing these low level rum runners and moonshiners.
And he realized that he could make a lot of
money if he went into it whole hog and do
(17:24):
it himself. So that's how he got involved. And then
he accumulated so much wealth and so much power that
he thought he was a king. And when this federal
agent took his wife, he felt like he could get
retribution and he went for it. But it's clearly the
environments and the setting that influenced the people. But I
(17:45):
don't know. I don't think it's that way all the time. Sometimes,
you know, there are people with these inclinations towards evil
and violence in every setting, and to combine the two
is the task of the author, or the podcast producer
or the filmmaker.
Speaker 2 (18:04):
I agree, Yeah, I think it's a combination of circumstance
slash environment, but also who you are as a human being.
All Right, Keith, Well, thank you so much for joining
us today. This is a lot of fun discussing true
crime as a whole in and media. So hey, really
appreciate your time.
Speaker 3 (18:21):
Thanks for having me. Emma, I appreciate it too.
Speaker 2 (18:33):
Thank you for tuning in to this special episode of
the Greatest True Crime Stories Ever told. To learn more
about Diversion, check out Diversion Audio dot com or Diversion
Books dot com.
Speaker 1 (19:30):
Diversion Audio
Diversion Audio.
Speaker 2 (00:21):
Welcome to a special bonus episode of the greatest true
Crime Stories Ever told. I'm Emma Demuth from Diversion Audio,
where I work behind the scenes on the show. Diversion
Audio was born from the book publishing company Diversion Books,
back in twenty twenty. Our mission is to tell stories
that spark dialogue, rooted and compelling stories. In fact, stories
(00:42):
from the Diversion Library served as key sources for many
of our stories in season one. Today, we have a
special guest who is no stranger to the world of
ripping narratives and to many of the stories from the season.
Joining us is Keith Wollman, the editor in chief of
Diversion Books. Keith is an expert in curating stories that captivate.
(01:04):
In this episode, we'll unravel the mystery behind the enduring
fascination with true crime books and podcasts. Why do people
find solace in the genre? What is it about these
narratives that keep us on the edge of our seats,
and what does that say about society about us? Stay
tuned as we embark on a conversation with Keith Wallman
(01:26):
about the why behind the true crime genre. This is
the greatest True Crime Stories Ever Told. Thank you Keith
(01:59):
for us today. I'm really interested to hear about your
perspective and true crime, specifically from the book Angle. And
this episode also marks the end of season one of
our new show, The Greatest True Crime Stories Ever Told.
Speaking of I'd like to start by asking you what
your favorite story was from the season.
Speaker 3 (02:18):
It's a pleasure to be here, Emma, thanks for having me.
I've got to go with the episode that was titled
Knife Through Hot Butter. It's based on a diversion title,
a Diversion Books title called Dancing with Death. And you've
got this multi layer Jeckyl and Hide character at the
center of Marjorie Orban. She's a former stripper and Vegas
(02:39):
showgirl turned into a suburban housewife. And you've got these
different settings, those different personalities, the showgirl versus the suburban
housewife mil you and the murder of her seventh husband,
and I think there's just so much tension between the
different sides of her personality and the different environments that
(03:00):
she inhabits. So to me, that's the best one of
the season. It's great.
Speaker 2 (03:07):
Yeah, I think characters that have very multi dimensional personalities
do make the best stories. It kind of reminds me
of my personal favorite three episodes of the season was
the first female American serial Killer, which was actually our host,
Mary Kay mcraer. She wrote a book all about Jane Toppin,
and it was really fascinating because it starts off with
(03:28):
her childhood and you kind of get a good understanding
of not necessarily the why behind her crimes, but it
makes a little bit more sense knowing that backstory. A
lot of true crime is about stories with men killing women, unfortunately,
and with our show, our focus was to tell stories
in which women were not just the victim. I'm curious
in your experience, has there been any type of characters
(03:51):
that you've seen most often in the stories that have
been submitted to you and why do you think that
is sure thing?
Speaker 3 (03:59):
Back to that check and Hide example, to have a
woman as the jeckal and Hyde is really unique because
most of the time it's the mild mannered man, the
doting husband, the businessman who's got the psychopathic impulses at night.
So this flips that script. But you know, there's almost
(04:22):
always the murdered or assaulted woman, and it's a good
thing to have a series that changes the perspective here
and gives us a look at humans in general who
have these evil impulses. In these true crime books, you've
often got the grieving family members, but there's usually one
(04:42):
or two who are determined, determined to get to the
bottom of the case, and those are the ones you
latch onto as the reader or the listener or the viewer.
Sometimes there's a journalist, a detective, an FBI agent trying
to piece it together. They've got their flaws as well well,
so they're really human and you can empathize with them,
(05:04):
and they're trying to piece together the clues, and you
can do it along with them. And I think that's
one of the thrills of true crime stories, is trying
to get to the bottom of it and having an
ally within the story itself.
Speaker 2 (05:16):
You kind of just answer this, but I'm curious, what
do you look for in true crime writers and in
true crime stories.
Speaker 3 (05:23):
One of the things I look for is an author's
understanding that a reader engaging in a book is looking
for escape. It's an escape and to double down on that. Sure,
you want action, you want the crime, you want some
heroes to follow, but you also want milieu. You want
(05:45):
to go someplace, another time, another geographic region, an interesting
culture or workplace. So the story of a crime set
in Prohibition era Kentucky, for example, takes you to the
world of bootleggers and moonshine in a different place. So
(06:05):
it's a form of escape. And if the author can
really paint that picture, well, they've done a great job.
So the setting of a true crime story is very important.
Night Through Hot Butter is a great example. Take me
to Las Vegas and the early two thousands among the showgirls.
I've never been there before, but I need an escape.
(06:26):
It's a diversion, right, diversion, books, diversion.
Speaker 2 (06:29):
Audience, see what you do.
Speaker 3 (06:32):
And then there's also if you're going to go with
a recognizable setting, if it's going to be in a
suburb that's familiar to what you're used to, you know,
the average everyday American town, then there is a way
that the author has to lean into the evil of
the perpetrator. So there are different elements depending on what
(06:53):
ingredients you have. You add a bit more of that,
a bit more of that. So the author is really
a chef taking the facts of the story, putting it
all together so that it's delicious, sometimes it's spicy, sometimes
you're a little nauseous, but it gets the emotions going.
And it's a challenging craft because we're dealing with crime
(07:17):
murder often, so how to make that entertaining or at
least to put us through a realm of emotions as
a reader. It's a hard challenge, and the best authors
do it well with different ingredients in different times.
Speaker 2 (07:34):
A recent study by you gov, a lengthy studies in
the show Notes, has shown more than fifty percent of
Americans enjoy true crime content. Thirty five percent of Americans
consume true crime content, whether that be podcasts, movies, TV shows,
or books, at least once a week. In addition, sixty
two percent of American adults report being fans of media
specifically about serial killers. This same survey found that seventy
(07:58):
six percent Americans can are themselves fans of true crime.
That's a lot of people that love true crime. Keith,
in your opinion, why do you think people like true
crime contient so much?
Speaker 3 (08:10):
I haven't quite done the research that you have. I'm impressed,
but absent of those statistics, I'd say there's that challenge
of trying to figure out who did it, and to
do that before the book or the podcast explains or
reveals who did it. So there's the puzzle aspect to
the whole thing. And just like any storytelling genre, I
(08:32):
think there's also that sympathy empathy element. You can put yourself,
If you can put yourself in the shoes of the
people who are in this story, that's a powerful, powerful thing,
and we want to do that. We want to escape
our everyday lives, and even if it's in a milieu
of evil, of something awful happening, it's a way to
(08:54):
have a change in our ordinary existence. There's the fear
factor elements. You can't ignore that. It's a jolt of energy.
And the books that really give you those cliffhangers at
the end of chapters and those little boosts of fear
are really great. So I think there's a lot of reasons,
(09:16):
and I think unless you're listening to or reading or
watching true crime to study law enforcement techniques, that you're
really in it for entertainment, but also to trigger that
sense of empathy in your being. And those are different things,
(09:37):
but they can work well together.
Speaker 2 (09:39):
Another thing that one of our other producers, Mark told
me recently, was that men overwhelmingly love this. I forget
what the show is called, but there's this show about
airplane tragedies and how to survive different tragedies that can
happen on airplanes, and women overwhelmingly love true crime podcast.
(10:00):
I think a lot of the reason why men and
women are both attracted to both kinds of content is
because they want to understand how to survive if they're
ever in these kind of circumstances. So I do think
in a way there is an educational component. You want
to understand how serial colors think, what kind of tactics
they use to lure people. It's an education on how
(10:22):
to not be a victim in the future. And I
think that's fascinating and who would want to.
Speaker 3 (10:26):
Learn that in a dry, boring way. Nobody exactly. Yeah,
So to have the entertainment, the storytelling aspect is really
really important. I'm with you. It's it's strange. I wonder
why men are so interested in the ancient Roman Empire too?
Do they want to learn how to be gladiators?
Speaker 2 (10:43):
Yes, you've heard of True Crime is My Roman Empire?
Are you on TikTok Keith? You know that?
Speaker 3 (10:51):
You know that, Yes, yes, exactly, yep.
Speaker 2 (10:57):
I love it. You know, something else as producer that
I think about a lot, and we've touched upon this
a little bit, is at the end of the day,
we want to tell an entertaining story. But these are
true victims, true people, whether they're they're gone now or
if they have family members that are still suffering to
this day because of these losses. These are real people.
(11:19):
And how can we tell these stories in a way
that is respectful and tasteful. You know, I personally never
really thought about it until a few years ago. My
very best friend in the whole world, her boyfriend was
actually really tragically murdered and witnessing the aftermath of that
and how people around her treated her, strangers treated her,
(11:41):
you know, she and one day she got over ten
thousand follow requests on Instagram. And it's fascinating to me
how much people are drawn to tragedy in a way
like people want to feel close to tragedy. And it's
been a struggle to try to understand that while also
(12:02):
you know, working in entertainment and right telling these stories.
And I don't know if I have an answer of
how we can tell a true crime story in the
most tasteful way, and if that is even possible, I'm
curious on your thoughts. I know it's a hard question.
Speaker 3 (12:20):
I think one of the important things is to remember
that these are stories of heightened human emotion, and we're
attracted to that. But we're not publishing horror, and we're
not doing podcasts that are in the horror genre. This
isn't about leaning into gruesomeness and pure evil. Although you
(12:42):
can explore evil in psychological ways. I don't think you
want to have an author convey a sense that they're
taking some sort of pleasure in writing about this. It's
different than that. There's a distinct difference between a challenging
and intriguing read versus pure shock.
Speaker 2 (13:01):
Yep.
Speaker 3 (13:02):
And I'm not interested in publishing or frankly reading pure shock.
I want to make those human connections as a reader.
So if it's in the midst of tragedy, there has
to be some sensitivity there, I think, and that's really
important in this genre for sure.
Speaker 2 (13:23):
This is a special episode of the greatest true crime
Stories ever told. We'll be right back after the break.
So what is the most fascinating true crime story you've
ever published?
Speaker 3 (13:44):
It's a great question. There are so many. I've done
lots of books in this genre. I'm going to point
to the first title that I published with Diversion called
The Bourbon King, The Life and Crimes of George Remus,
who's we call pro Prohibition's Evil Genius. So you're in
Cincinnati and Kentucky in the nineteen twenties. It's Prohibition and
(14:07):
he's got one of the largest illegal booze operations going
in the whole country, this guy named Remus, and he
goes to prison, and while he's in prison, a federal
agent seduces his wife and ends up having a relationship
with his wife. He finds out about it, he gets
out of prison somehow and he murders him. And then
(14:30):
you've got this fantastic trial and he's pumping money into
bribing the jurors and everything like that. But it's really
that Miliu getting to go to basically the bootleg capital
of America in the nineteen twenties, like jazz Age America,
where they're pumping out moonshine. That's really fantastic. So that
(14:53):
speaks to the element of Milliu again. And there's another
one that I'd point to that this book years ago.
It was called Terror in the City of Champions and
it was about the city of Detroit in the Great
Depression era. And what's really fascinating are all the things
(15:14):
that are happening around this one central murder. So Detroit
is suffering, people are looking for jobs, they're down on
their luck, but the sports teams in Detroit are winning
championships left and right, So there's this inspirational aspect to
the time and place. At the same time, you had
all of these people moving from the South up north
(15:35):
for jobs, and some of them brought elements of the
KKK to the North. So there was this offshoot group
in Detroit called the Black Legion. And at the center
of this story, in the Terror of the City of Champions,
there's a murder of a black man and one of
the Black Legion members who's I guess then you would
(15:59):
have called them, but he's not one of the higher ups,
but he's the star witness. And it's just an amazing story.
And again for me, the historical crime is really fascinating
because it's truly an escape. You're distant time, distant place,
and yet all of those human elements come through. So
(16:22):
those are my favorite kinds of true crime, but the
ones that you have on the podcast are all fantastic too.
Speaker 2 (16:29):
This makes me think of another question when it comes
to historical crime. How much do you think the crime
is influenced from the environment versus the human being. It's interesting,
even in the first season we have characters from the
two thousands all the way to the eighteen hundreds. It
seems to me people haven't changed that much. But for instance,
(16:52):
the Prohibition story, if this man lived in the early
two thousands, do you think he still would have murdered
someone or do you think it's very circumstantial to Prohibition specifically.
Speaker 3 (17:03):
It's a good question, and I think it is circumstantial.
George Remis was a lawyer and he got his start
in bootlegging by representing these low level rum runners and moonshiners.
And he realized that he could make a lot of
money if he went into it whole hog and do
(17:24):
it himself. So that's how he got involved. And then
he accumulated so much wealth and so much power that
he thought he was a king. And when this federal
agent took his wife, he felt like he could get
retribution and he went for it. But it's clearly the
environments and the setting that influenced the people. But I
(17:45):
don't know. I don't think it's that way all the time. Sometimes,
you know, there are people with these inclinations towards evil
and violence in every setting, and to combine the two
is the task of the author, or the podcast producer
or the filmmaker.
Speaker 2 (18:04):
I agree, Yeah, I think it's a combination of circumstance
slash environment, but also who you are as a human being.
All Right, Keith, Well, thank you so much for joining
us today. This is a lot of fun discussing true
crime as a whole in and media. So hey, really
appreciate your time.
Speaker 3 (18:21):
Thanks for having me. Emma, I appreciate it too.
Speaker 2 (18:33):
Thank you for tuning in to this special episode of
the Greatest True Crime Stories Ever told. To learn more
about Diversion, check out Diversion Audio dot com or Diversion
Books dot com.
Speaker 1 (19:30):
Diversion Audio
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