June 15, 2021 • 49 mins
This week Rabia is joined by visionary artist Morehshin Allayari. Morehshin's "She Who Sees The Unknown" re-creates monstrous female figures to reimagine their stories, and the stories of the societies and cultures they hail from. Explore Morehshin's works, and this exhibit, here:
http://shewhoseestheunknown.com/about/
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Episode Transcript
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Speaker 1 (00:02):
Welcome to The Hidden Gin, a production of I Heart
Radio and Grimm and Mild from Aaron Mankey. Hi, and
(00:31):
welcome to this very special bonus series of The Hidden Gin.
The interviews in these episodes, you'll hear me talk to
people from all walks of life who have had GIN experiences,
are drawn through the stories of Gin and draw lessons
from these stories. You'll hear from artists, scholars, writers, journalists,
and Gin exorcists, and even from me as I discuss
(00:53):
how and why this series came about in a very
personal conversation with my husband. Thanks for listening and enjoy.
I am very excited to introduce my guest for you
this week and artists like no other that you have
ever known. Marchan Alari is an artist, activist, writer, and educator.
She was born and raised in Iran and moved to
(01:14):
the US in two thousand and seven, and her work
deals with the political and social and cultural contradictions that
we face every single day. She's an acclaimed artist, the
recipient of the Joan Mitchell Foundation Painters and Sculptors Grant,
the Sun Dance Institute, New Frontier International Fellowship, and Leading
Global Thinkers of two thousand and sixteen award by Foreign
Policy Magazine. Her work has been part of numerous exhibitions, festivals,
(01:38):
and workshops around the world, including the Whitney Museum of
American Art, Pompadou Center, Museum of Contemporary Art in Montreal,
the Tape Museum, the Queen's Museum, Powerhouse Museum, the Dallas
Museum of Art, and so many more. Now, I came
across Machine when I was researching female jams, and I
came across her incredible project called she Who Sees the Unknown.
(02:02):
And in this project more Sheen uses three D scanning, modeling,
and printing to recreate monstrous female and queer figures from
Middle Eastern origins. Believe me, this is a conversation you
don't want to miss. Thank you so much for joining us,
um Moha Shane. It's a real pleasure to talk to you.
(02:23):
I have been fascinated with your work ever since I
discovered it earlier this year. Hi, thanks so much for
having me Rabbia, It's it's an honor. So um you
know I as you know you know. This UH Conversation
series is a companion to the ongoing series which will
which will have air by the time this this air
(02:43):
is UM called the Hidden Gin Podcast, and I drew
on a lot of different sources, and one of those
sources actually was the exhibit that I've found, and that's
how I discovered you called She who Sees the Unknown.
But before we get into that, I want to talk
a little bit about you say on your website, UM
about this exhibit that the Iranian traditions jin are fearsome
and honored, and that your upbringing in Iran was full
(03:05):
of ancient mythical narratives involving supernatural beings, and your bedtime
stories told to you by your grandmother often included gin.
So I wanted to ask you if you can tell
it a little bit about your upbringing, about your background
in Iran, and about the gin lore that you grew
up with. Yes, um So, I started to kind of
(03:28):
become interested in general since like three and a half
years ago, uh in these figures of monstrous female slash
genderless career figures in mythical stories UH that would origin
in West Asia or basically Middle Eastern UM ancient stories
and UM to kind of um give you a little
(03:51):
bit of I guess more summary of also like my
practice in relationship to that I. You know, I also
have been very interested in this relationship between technology and
history in that sense. So when I was doing this research, UM,
I was going through a lot of resources and books
and and material UM that would you know include this
(04:13):
this also like figure of of Gin within Islamic tradition studies.
And so that's when I when I became interested in
researching more um into the figure of the Gin. And
as you mentioned, it's a figure that I grew up
with in Iran. Whenever there were stories that kind of
(04:34):
were ghosts, these ghostly stories, et cetera, it would always
involve the figure of the Gin. And so a lot
of people who might have grown up in different countries
Islamic countries or Realistan countries probably also identify with this
that Jen is a figure that we grow up within
a lot of our our stories and time stories UM.
(04:57):
And at the same time that it's very feared as
a figu you're um, it's also very respected. So people
take certain kind of UM caution or like certain kind
of UH care in terms of the way they they
deal with the digen and the way that you shouldn't
interrupt certain spaces or you kind of can use different
(05:20):
methods as a way to not not be possessed by
by the gin. So, yeah, I'm gonna go on, please.
So for me, the figure of the Gin had this
personal relationship that I had with it, but at the
same time coming I was also like coming to it
from more of like a feminist perspective and feminism studies.
(05:44):
And that's something that I guess I can talk more
about later. Yeah, So, so I want to talk a
little bit about what your perspective on these stories were
as you grow up and maybe how that's changed, um
with adulthood. I also, you know, I grew up steep
kind of in this this this culture. Although my family
nobody totally told stories much, but you know, a couple
of Muslim kids get together and that's that was the
(06:06):
topic conversation often late at nights. Um, So, when when
you were being taught or told these stories where they
kind of like lessons that were being told to you,
or they told you to entertain or to maybe warn
you from certain behaviors, or was it taught to you
as something like this is real, Like you gotta take
this seriously. Um. I think it's a combination of a
(06:26):
couple of those things. You said, so most of it
as I as I. As you also mentioned, it was
told by my grandmother who lived with us, and you know,
I had a very close relationship too. And one of
the most vivid memories I have is um in a
in a summer and evening um almost like night, when
the stars were out, and it was me and two
(06:47):
of my my cousins who we all lived in the
same apartment building, and my grandmother was telling us about
her encounter with a gen um at a public bath
where she grew up, which is a village in Kurdistan
and west of Iran, and she was telling us, you
know how it was very common for women who would
(07:10):
go to these public bath houses to encounter gen And
one of the things that is also known or like
talked about about the gen is that they really like
spaces that are dark and humid. So basically, you know,
a place like a bath house is like a perfect
place for them to come and visit. So for me,
it was kind of like as a child, it was
(07:32):
a mixture of believing it and doubting it, like did
she really see it? Was it something else she saw that,
like she thought it's a gen um, But again like
because those stories get like repeated so much within different
people's experiences of encountering gen um. It's kind of like
becomes almost like an oral narrative of you know, a
(07:53):
relationship with this supernatural creature that is there and then
certain people encountered in certain or don't. And if you're
scared of it, then, as I mentioned earlier, you can
take certain actions um to to avoid it. Were you
ever aware and I wasn't aware until adulthood, and I did,
you know, my research kind of more deeply into into
(08:16):
this whole subject um that ginn or gendered um and
that there is a body of you know, folklore around
female gin in particular, or at least um people encounter
them as female gin. Was that something you were aware
of growing up or is that something you also learned
as you started doing your research into this project. Absolutely not.
(08:37):
My image of the gin as as this creature was
always male. And again this goes back to one of
the reasons I became really curious and also interested in
this this project that I worked on for for almost
four years. She was sees the unknown um which I
wanted to kind of find these female or almost genderless
(09:00):
uh stories and figures of of the Gin and also
like monstrous figures because UM also growing up in Iran
with a lot of mythical and you know, ancient stories
that are part of um our daily life but also
our you know school and like literature and education. Incredible
incredible stories. Yeah, and they're all always very you know,
(09:23):
all these figures are male. So I was wondering, like,
where are the female figures are mohere are the figures
that are perhaps like more and more queer, more like
a non binary in terms of like you know, gender
as like these things that you know in English were
like very specific about he and she, but in in
far Sea, actually there's no he or she for third person, right,
(09:43):
So I kind of like wanted to find also that
ambiguity within these these texts and material. And yeah, that's
that's how I came across so many female or generalist
figures of of Gin that were illustrated in different books
and and resources and material that I had no idea about.
(10:04):
Can you tell us UM a little bit about the
the exhibit again, its titled She who Sees the Unknown?
About the kind of um like the medium that you
used for this exhibit, I mean it's and I wish
I could. I don't know where is it this being
displayed right now, by the way, So it's more of
like a project. I mean, it has been exhibited in
so many different places, but when you go up to
(10:26):
my website she posives you on that time. It's a
research based project that has many different components and elements,
from performance to these three D printed sculptures that I
recreate from illustrations I find in older material, books, etcetera. Um,
to these new texts and narratives that I write about
(10:46):
each of these figures that I choose to work with.
And then there's an archive aspect of it, and also
like a reading room that I have been also working
on as part of the project. So um yeah, the
project itself again has many many different components um. And
then the exhibition in time i've shown it, it has,
(11:06):
you know, taken many many different forms. But within the
research I've done, I've come across many many texts and
material and an illustrations, but I've chosen to focus on
five specific figures, which are Huma, who is a gin
who brings fever to human body. Yeah, Judge jug who
(11:26):
are these figures that are kind of like monsters gen
like that are spoken in the Qoran that represent chaos.
The Laughing Snake, which is uh known as you know,
a very like powerful kind of hybrid animal human female
human combination that is known as you know, this figure
(11:50):
that is very um strong and is going through all
these like towns and cities and killing people and eating
all the animals, and no one can win a war
with her until um someone comes and say the only
way to kill her is to hold a mirror in
front of her, and when she sees her reflection, she
starts laughing, and she laughs for days and nights until
she dies from the laughter um. And then Caboos, which
(12:14):
is a gen that is known as a gen that
brings nightmare and si proalysis to human body. Um, and
then I shap and Disha. She's actually originally a Moroccan
gen um that is known to possess men, creating a
crack on their body. And the only way to not
go insane when you're possessed by her is to participate
(12:35):
with her and listen to her. So I use all
these you know, really beautiful complex stories, and then I
write new stories about them, and I turned them around.
I kind of connect different aspects of you know that
their their their power UM into different uh contemporary issues
and topics and also kind of these like futuristic alternative
(12:58):
reimagination of it's possible and the world. You've coined this
term refiguring, which I read about and you said refiguring
is about activation and preservation. Can you talk a little
bit about refiguring and UM when you when you think
about refiguring, when you go about it is the content
because I know, I mean a lot of your work
(13:18):
is UM. It has a social political UM aspect to it. UM.
I know in this exhibit where to talk about specifically
have some I mean, you just turned the story of
yah Juj Madjuj on its head for me, UM, but
you know a lot of it visibly like um colonization
and imperialism. But also are you also doing refiguring within
(13:40):
kind of your own cultural context? UM? Yeah, I mean absolutely.
I think the most important aspect of that is the
refiguration of UM. This this this figure of the female
monstrous female figure which is known usually as like negative
(14:02):
or or mean, which is kind of like you can
compare it to you know, the figure of the witch
um in in like Western literature and like kind of
like cultural productions which has been turned around through like
different feminist movements as something that instead of like being
considered you know, like this like figure off an old
ugly woman, uh, into you know, like a kind of
(14:26):
witchcraft movement, which is like empower empowerment for like women
to turn around that figure. So that's something I'm doing
within the cultural context of these um stories and also
the figures themselves, which is too you know, especially like
I mean, I can give you like an example with
let's say, the laughing snake, which I am kind of
(14:48):
turning around this idea that her her death because of
her laughter is considered a weakness, um, and I'm saying
that actually that position that she's taking is a position
of um, you know, empowerment, because she's taking away her
reflection from the mirror that is held by these men,
as you see in this like old illustrations in two
(15:11):
different resources. Um. And kind of then I used that
to tell a more contemporary story of growing up in
Iran and dealing with sexual harassment and you know, like
trying to figure out my body as a woman and
thinking about sexual desire and so kind of again trying
to like to find ownership of my body as a woman.
(15:33):
But also it's it's an experience that is very collective
in terms of like all when growing upment in in
Iran can can connect to these stories and these experiences
within spirit harassment, but also in a wider again um
connection to it. It's it's something that all women can
connect to and with in in different levels. So you
(15:55):
interpret the laughter, which actually when I first heard about
the story, I also kind of did as something that
was empowering. Yes, absolutely, because because you know, the way
it's I feel like sometimes it's told is more of
you know, she laughs and then she dies and that's
the end and they find a way to kill her.
But then again for me, she makes the decision had
(16:19):
laughter as a respond to what they're doing is like, um,
you know, very conscious decision of how to respond to
to that reflection that that she's witnessing being held by
these men. Um. Yeah. So and I and again like
this idea of refiguration or turning around power structures is
something that I became really interested in within this project
(16:42):
and how I can't do that through specifically also storytelling
and a narrative. UM that has political cultural components to it. Um,
I want to talk about boots, I thought, and I've
spent a lot of time on your website. I've watched
pretty which all the videos on there, and so the
boos are and they're also called al jathoom and they
(17:03):
are known to be kind of a race of gin,
kind of a category of gin that bring different um
sicknesses and trauma and nightmares. And the depiction is can
be quite frightening. Um, this gin is it looks like
there kind of this hovering above a human being in
in some of the illustrations I've seen as a person
(17:25):
sleeps um bringing nightmares to them. But your narration as
it relates to this figure was um just really I
mean it was kind of um, I don't know, I
I it really did bring me to tears because your
narration is about the story of your birth and the
story of you waiting for your mother as a child
(17:47):
to land every time she flew. So could you tell
us about that story and how um, how this this
the gaboos um lore resonates with it. Um. Yeah, So
I called boost was one of the figures that I
had come across with within my research and always kind
of like Helbert somewhere in my head to kind of
(18:08):
come back to. And actually she's the last figure from
this series that I worked on. Um So, as you mentioned,
car boost is known as a gen that brings um
nightmare but also specifically sleep proalysis to human body. Um so.
We also said in far seats also known as back deck,
(18:29):
which is kind of like known as this thing that
kind of you know, sits on your chest and one
that you move um and so you know, I kind
of started doing a lot of research first, like within
also like the scientific aspect of it, like what happens
when you experienced sleep paralysis. I don't know if you've
ever experienced that. Have you ever experienced sleep paralysis? I
have not, but my husband has, and he has described
(18:50):
it um as a gin to me, that's what he
believes it was. It's yeah, it's a very I've experienced
it um three times in my life, and I think
like most of those three times I was really like
stressed for like different reasons. And they say kind of
like from the scientific aspect of its stress also like
(19:11):
has you know, very kind of direct relationship to how
you experience this and why you experience it? But that
the gin experience that your your husband is talking about
is actually also very present in a way that that
that you experienced the paralysis when you're sleeping. My first
time that I had experienced it, I I literally saw
(19:34):
someone opening the window, but I saw myself seeing them.
So that's another thing that happens again within what happens
in your brain if you study it within scientific research,
is that you you become an image and then you
will be standing outside of that image then watching yourself.
And I experienced it completely like that, and that's really
(19:57):
scary because you see yourself not being able to move
while you're awake. Um So, anyway, I've been always like
fascinated by that because I also had like this personal
experience and I asked people sometimes you know about like
have your experiences, What was your experience with sleep parallels
if you did? Um So thinking about that and thinking
about kind of like basically trauma, right, A lot of
(20:20):
papers written on SAP parallelsis, as I said, is connected
to stress and trauma. And so I was like thinking
about trauma and I was like doing like a lot
of research in this um recent scientific also like research
that is this idea of intergenerational trauma, which is that
UM trauma stays in your DNA basically UM, and it
(20:44):
can be passed on within generations. Some people also call
it like blood memory, you know, so like the experience
of enslaved people, let's say, to experience of war, to
like other experiences that has been experienced too, again differ
different generations. It can be passed on that even if
you don't experience it yourself as a new generation, it's
(21:07):
still kind of stays within your DNA and your blood memory.
So I was fascinated by those this this These are
again like newer research UM and scientific studies, and I
wanted to somehow connect this relationship between trauma into generational
trauma too. Also my ideas of you know, when we
(21:27):
experienced into inter general trauma, like as a as a
person you know who is like now, like thirty five,
I think about birthing a lot, and I think about
children a lot, but also not wanting to have my
own my own child UM. And so I connect to
the story to like four generations of women, so my grandmother,
(21:47):
my mother, and myself and and imagined monsters like gen
like daughter UM. And then we all in different parts
of this VR film, we tell different stories about motherhood
and war and different different trauma and different encounter with
gin So and all of this happens in a in
(22:08):
a bath house. As I said at the beginning of
this conversation, UM, my grandmother always talked about bath houses
and also public bath houses at a time were really
important social spaces for women and intimacy between ways that
women would go and spend hours, you know, at a
at a bath house to bath, but also to hang
(22:29):
out and sing and gossip. Um. So this space of
intimacy was something I wanted to bring together, this four
generation of women for us to talk about different relationship
we had we've had with um trauma and then war
being a big part of me growing up in Iran.
And like this diary that I my mom gave me
(22:51):
when I was around sixteen or seventeen that she wrote
during um Irani Rock War when she was pregnant with
my sister Um and somewhere in it she talks about
how she feels guilty for giving birth to my sister
and she doesn't know if it's a right decision and
if it's a cruel decision. UM. And so that always
(23:13):
stayed with me, you know, as a teenager. It always
stayed with me because I would also kind of um
as my my, my, my parents are like this is
um and saying that how could your generation give birth
to this many kids? Because the eight years of War
had actually the highest rate of birth um and you know,
(23:33):
again like connecting that to my own um experience stuff
thinking about motherhood, but like rethinking motherhood and thinking about
birthing as something that could be you know, birth justice
is a specific word that I use in that narrative
which you talk about that which is not just I
mean the definition of birth justice is having the choice
(23:56):
um of you know, as as a woman having a
choice of when with who and um let's see when
with who? And I'll say that again in a second.
But I'm trying to what is it like who? You know,
let's see, I believe you said where. I guess it
is where. Yeah, that makes sense, okay, so let me
(24:18):
let me say that again. UM. So this I came
across this you know, kind of very specific definition of
birth justice, which is that as a woman having the
option to choose when with home and where to give birth? Um.
And I added to that, what to give birth to
(24:39):
UM you know, as my own kind of imagined way
of thinking about how to break through this intergenerational trauma cycle,
right um and kind of like the only way in it,
I say, the only way to to to to break
through this cycle is to reimagine the possibilities of what
we give birth to UM. And in this you know,
(25:01):
fictional story that I'm kind of building within the VR film,
I'm ear thing kind of like a monstrous gen mix
of like you know, a child UM that is human
and non human at a time, but kind of again, uh,
within thinking about monstrosity as something that can be a
position of empowerment, like embracing that that that monstrosity or
(25:25):
the figure of the gin um this this child is
able to see the future for us and help us
to build an alternative kind of kind of future, you know. UM.
So it's again sits between like a real and real
fictional and nonfictional more like documentary style UM film. But
(25:46):
for me um as as you as you also like
mentioned earlier, it's kind of like finding these stories and
then connecting them to something that is very personal and
also at the same time UM you know again can
be expanded to other other people's experiences. Well, that film
and um that particular exactly. I think it was jarring
(26:09):
to me in many ways. Also um hearing the voice
that the childlike monster voice. Uh. You know, there's a
real frightening aspect of course. I mean, like you know,
Gin are supposed to be frightening. They inspire fear in us. Um,
but I I feel like you're using that fear in
(26:32):
a very different way. UM. Can you talk a little
bit about what you think whether there's instrumental whether you
you are instrumentalizing the fear uh in a specific way
to to mean something else that not necessarily like the
fear means that these monstrous beings um are evil necessary
(26:56):
because there's a strong connection between Gin evil, especially the
Gin that we are told if the Gin encounter human beings, um,
the lores and those are definitely evil Gin. Yes, Um, yes,
So I mean that's a really great question because the
way that I have tried to try to build this
(27:17):
project and kind of build build and refigure these these
stories and figures is to find perhaps like a balance
between um, this this hybrid aspect of what Jin are.
So they're both feared uh and honored, right, so they can.
(27:37):
They can. They can be your friend and at the
same time your enemy. Um, you can. You can befriend
them and use their power. Like that's what they're known as.
Right If if you know how to like befriend the
gin and use their power, you can use that power
to possess other other beings are like make some something
happen within the world, right, Um. But also you can
(28:01):
be possessed by them. So there's always this sort of
gray area with the figure of the Gin um and
even in the Koran when they're talked about. You know,
we have the figure of the angel that obeys and
then the double that disobeys and um. Like humans, Gin
have the will to obey or disobey um and that's
(28:24):
something that made them, made made working with the figure
of the Gin really interesting from my research and and
and this body of work. UM. So yeah, I try
to kind of build a space where they're feared, but
at the same time we're in we want to know them,
we want to get to know that, we want to
enter their world and within the as I mentioned earlier,
(28:46):
the kind of the feminist movements and the feminism refiguration
of them. UM. I try to like use use their
figures UM as a way to again like find a
space for the empowerment of women and not non binary
people UM, et cetera. So it's it's really a mix
(29:09):
of these worlds that I tried to bring together UM
and also channel this power of after gin um for
our empowerment. We'll be right back after the short break.
One of the questions that I pose in there's one
specific episode that focuses on the female gin and one
(29:31):
of the one of those gin that's heavily focused on
a check and who was really rich? I mean, there's
so much tradition around that figure UM and but not
the other ones that you actually have included your exhibit.
But the question one of the questions I posed as
you know, as I was reading these stories, I wondered,
you know, I can see it playing both ways with
these stories UM, which in large part of these in
(29:51):
South Asian culture, you do not we don't. We don't
have access to stories of female gen anymore. These don't
exist anymore. I've never heard them anymore unless they are
like an unnamed which type of figure right UM or
something that's not as UM I guess, not not as
powerful as a second or a little bit or other
(30:11):
kinds of female figures. But I've always wondered, um, we're
were the were the perceptions around female gin? Do you
think a reflection of how society viewed viewed women? You don't.
We we have this. I mean, it's not uncommon to
hear in in a lot of Muslim cultures that, oh, yeah,
women are bent a little crooked, like the rib of
(30:34):
Adam because they come from the rib of atoms. So
there's something a little nefarious about women. Or I wondered,
are these stories of gin who, these female gin who
have so much power and can inspire so much fear?
Are these actually projections of the women at the time
themselves saying this is what we are capable of, and
you should hold a little fear and love and respect
(30:55):
all the same time. Yeah, I'd like to, you know,
I like to think that's why a big part of
it the the one that you just mentioned. But also
I'm pretty sure it's a combination of two pretty much,
you know, within looking at a lot of these stories
and kind of like also again, like one thing I've
I've been doing and researching is um also apparel Um
(31:18):
World of Um Western like figures or methodologies and how
they've been used within different like feminist movements, right, like
as I mentioned that the figure of the witch or
um the you know, we have the figure of the zombies,
which can be male or female, but definitely I think
um something that I have been fascinated by is um
(31:41):
that kind of patriarchal you know, heaviness of like how
how these figures are like not just that women are
like you know from as you say, there's like that
that's saying that women actually within some Islamic cultures and
thinking that are like even a considered half of men
right there, that incomplete and actually, to be fair, look,
(32:03):
it's not just mean the all the Abrahamic I mean
you know original sin, right, I mean like Christianity and Judaism.
It's exists, I was even not Abrahamic cultures, but certainly
absolutely exactly Like so that's my my research within like
other cultures and studies shows exactly what you're saying. That
like that that like patriarchal kind of like perspective towards
(32:24):
like women, their madness, they're like hysteria. Right, There's a
long history of hysteria and patriarchy within like women having
this hysteria or madness for different reasons. When you're like,
there's a whole Wikipedia of asia and hysteria. Well, America
still thinks that a woman is not emotionally stable enough
to become presidents. So yeah, and we have that within
(32:46):
you know, any iron for example, you can be a
judge as a woman because you are too emotional to
be able to like judge with with logic basically. So yeah,
So I want to tell I have to say this.
You know, I am I'm always uh and you know,
I'm an observant Muslim um, and but I have had
(33:08):
to rediscover my faith um in the last fifteen twenty
years because I realized that the gatekeepers who were teaching
us things have a very specific perspective, have a you know,
it's just the male perspective, as a very patriarchal, misogynistic perspective,
and so retelling the stories in a way that actually
makes sense to the I would say the spirit of
(33:30):
what I believe is a lot of faith is about
has really opened up a lot of doors for me.
But this retelling of yeah Jewish magut, I cannot tell you.
I can't stop thinking about this and I'm going to
talk about this with every other person I meet, um,
but for our listeners, just uh, you might you might
not be familiar with your judge, but you might be
(33:51):
familiar with Gog and Magogue, which is found in the
Biblical telling and the Talmudic telling. To telling and Gog
and Magogue are a race of beings that, it is said,
at least um I guess to be more specifically in
the Islamic tradition, that they are basically hidden behind a wall.
They have they they cause chaos. They are these beings
(34:12):
that if they're unleashed into the world they'll destroy it.
So for centuries and millennia they have been buried behind
this wall. Every single day they chip away at this wall,
and at the end of the day they give up
and say, well, we can't, we just can't get through.
But everythingle The next day they start over again, and
the as the story goes towards the end of time, um,
(34:35):
towards the day of judgment, at one point they're going
to breach the wall and completely be unleashed on this world.
But oh my gosh, you have to tell me how
you imagine the story in your own words. Absolutely, yeah,
so I came actually across UM this story sometime after
UH the Muslim band or travel band have happened in
(34:58):
the US, and I'm my stuff was also affected by it.
At a time, UM, I had left the US for
UM a week of exhibitions and conference that I was
part of in Berlin, in Germany, and then the band happened.
And at a time I had UM an Iranian passport
and a green card, and if some of you might remember,
(35:20):
at the beginning a green card holders were also like
included UH with the with the band and from if
you were from these six band countries. UM. So I
it was like such a strange, complicated moment where I
just didn't know if I could come back to the US,
and you know I have. I have lived here for
(35:41):
like now around eleven twelve years, and so that was
like a really intense moment of realizing everything I've built
here could just go go to zero. But obviously I
was privileged enough to have the green card and be
able to come back. While this story up to today,
four years later, almost UH is very relevant to the
lives of many people who are trying to come to
(36:05):
this country for for different reasons, as immigrants, refugees, etcetera. Um,
And so I came across the story of yahujuj Um
and you know this, this image of the wall was
something that was just stuck in my head because it
talks about the wall as something that they get these
figure zolor Aarin. In some texts they say it's Um
(36:27):
Alexander the Great Um to build this wall. Um and
these the people of the city asked for this wall
to be built to keep yah jud majus out because
they present chaos, as you also mentioned, Um. And so
reading I started to do a lot of research around it,
like reading different interpretations of this story, not just within
(36:48):
you know, the Islamic text itself, but but different interpretations
of Um. Different you know uh I guess um Muslim
scholars or just just people reading this story and coming
up with their own interpretation of what this means. And
one thing that was really fascinating to me is kind
of these these these different time zones and timelines of
(37:13):
how yeah judge magic or who yeah judge major had
been interpreted at as so somewhere like oh they were um,
you know, Turkish people or Mongolians who who attacked Iran
somewhere like you know, again saying that they represent Israel.
Um and you know, and again many many other interpretations
of them. But one thing that became very obvious to
(37:36):
me is how through many many centuries of this story
being interpreted, it shows that we always have found this
figure of the other, right or the other as a
way to make a monster of So what basically someone
like Trump calls the bad people um and you know,
the ones that can put America in danger or like
(37:59):
we don't want to let them come in because of rapists,
that they're the worst ones, right, absolutely, yeah, So how
through this monstrosity of these people, right, like making a
monster of these people? Um, through so many years, including
amoment we're living, these the other have been um justified
(38:19):
as those we need to keep out, those we need
to ban, those we need to reject and um. The
Islamic interpretation is that when the age come and break
through the wall, we're going to You also mentioned experienced
some kind of ending, and as you know, within Islamic studies, UM,
that ending is is both dystopian and in some ways utopian,
(38:44):
because the ending itself is dystopian, but it will it
will result to basically something, um, you know that we
want that is better, right, So, and and they use
this very specific term which is the end of time
that they doesn't say like and they kind of I
mean I read a lot about that specific frame, which
(39:06):
is the end of time. And yeah, that was just
really powerful for me because I was like, what would
the end of this time mean to us right now,
as you know, as Muslim, as people from you know,
even if you're not. I mean, it's about nationality at
this point, right if you're from Ivan, but whatever your
religion is, and other other countries that are also bound
(39:26):
as well. Um, So it's like what, you know, what
what would that end mean? And also for all these
other people you know, we are now. In the past
weeks there has been a lot of um conversations and
kind of protest etcetera, um about you know, um, black
(39:49):
people and and the struggle of black people in America
and and the history of slavery, etcetera. So it doesn't
matter how your other within this context of history, but
the fact that the otherness it has is almost always
linked to this monstrosity was something that was you know,
really fascinating to me. So I turned around again like
(40:10):
that that image and use the power of the chaos,
the monstrous, the one that is the other um as
a way to actually break through the wall and then
wish for some some other, some, some new beginning, another world,
an alternative reality that we can live in that is
not whatever it is that we're experiencing. Now, you're telling
(40:31):
us that the chaos that we fear, or that's feared
by certain powers, um, we ourselves have internalized fear of
that chaos. When that chaos itself could bring the end
of a time that's terrible for those of us who
are mothered um and could could usher in, you know,
(40:52):
whatever comes after the end of this time. UM. And
it's just such a uh an eye opening. And I'm,
like I said, I'm still I have to think about
this for a long time and talk about this for
a lot of people. But I also thought it was
really wonderful that you collectively imagine yeah, jujih Ma Juja
as this female figure um and that and you said
(41:14):
that she felt the burden of her people's exhaustion upon
her shoulders, the exhaustion of constantly trying to break through
the wall, um and yet not giving up. Yeah. Absolutely,
I mean, when I was writing it, it was again
very personal, but I was like horrified and at the
same time I knew that I have the privileges that
(41:35):
a lot of people don't have, so kind of like
thinking about yeah, us thinking about that story as a
story that becomes a poor doll in talking about and
um representing the pain of all these people who are
who are who are being other than being banned and
being rejected literally most times for no reason. So um,
(42:00):
that was something that became yeah, very heartbreaking and at
the same time painful to think about and write about.
It just really made me think about who we are,
what or who we are taught to fear um, and
to examine that a little more closely, And it really
brought to mind h and how you know, right right
(42:23):
post um, the post Civil War where there was like
this explosion of UM fear around black men attacking white
women and um, right like you know, with with birth
of a national movies, all kinds of media, newspapers, um,
And how we are systematically taught to fear something unquestioning,
(42:44):
without question And so this you have taught me to
question maybe what it is that we've been taught to
fear UM. And I think one of the one of
the things I love about how you framed this entire
UM project is that, UM, the female jin not only
has seen the unknown and the known, but she's embraced
(43:05):
being the other absolutely and and that's that's something that
I also try to use on my daily life and
my practice of UM not shying away from, you know,
wanting to constantly justify myself that I'm worthy, I'm good,
and I you know, because of this reason or that reason,
(43:26):
I am worthy of either you know, UM living in
this country or like having access to certain kind of resources,
et cetera. UM. But kind of again like rather UM
embracing the otherness and using it UM as a way
to to to criticize that that very very thing that
(43:48):
that has been UM, you know again mothering us. Okay,
I'm gonna end with one last question for you, UM,
but before that, I just to say thank you for
this incredibly illuminating conversation for your work. I'm going to
continue to follow it. I'm so excited to have discovered it. UH,
And we will point all our listeners and in that
(44:10):
direction too, so they can continue to follow you. And
my last question for you is this. Do you believe
you have ever personally had an experience with jin Um?
I think that the ones however you might think of
jin I mean, it doesn't have to it can be
whatever you jin is in your imagination, let me clear, right, Yeah,
I mean, so there are two things I can say.
One is that the actual experiences of that I was
(44:32):
telling you of this kind of nightmare sleep paralysis which
you literally feel like there is it's not just like
a nightmare, that there is another third person with you
in that space, right, So it's like you and the
GIN and also something else you know with with the GIN.
So it's that experience of the sleep paralysis has been
(44:54):
really intense and has stayed with me always. Um, and
when since I also start working on this project. You know, again,
I grew up anyone with a lot of these gen
related stories, etcetera. But um, it was not until when
I started to do this body of work. She was
just the unknown that I like really had to, you know,
(45:18):
spend a lot of hours researching. And also that that
caused like very real relationships that I had built with
each of each of these figures, right, like I can
I sometimes call them like my children. These like five
figures that that I you know, mentioned their names earlier
that I have worked on because to work on each
(45:38):
of them, I had to spend like hours not just
researching their history and the stories told about them, but
also like writing about them and really trying to like
imagine this thing as something that I'm like using its
power to to to to do something else with. Right,
and this like really became yeah, like a like a
connection that I never thought I would I would find
(45:59):
with something that I'm creating this intensely. Um but um,
this is this is all like in that sense very
like new to me. Um. So yeah, I I kind
of see them not just as you say, like I'm
able to imagine them also in many other forms and
(46:21):
like many many many other ways of their their presence
within like my personal life as well as what they
can do for the world and with the world. And
kind of last thing I want to mention is that
we really need a figure like the gen I I think,
especially within like these kind of um feminist movements and
(46:43):
thinking about women and uh kind of saying kind of
trying to like find something away or like different from
the dominant perhaps like Western white feminism movements for me,
the image of the gin is something that you know,
I I have found it so powerful because also it's
(47:04):
something that is for us. But one thing I say
that you know, to build this future for us but
by us, right um, And that's something that I think
they can do. And so that means that their their presence.
When this project is almost done, she will since unknown,
but I think their presence in my in my life
will um stay in many serious ways because I will
(47:24):
always think about them again as portals, as channels, as
as as friends and allies and allies that can help
us get through whatever it is that we're trying to
get through as as we struggle this this fair moment.
(47:45):
Thanks for checking out this week's episode and conversation. If
you want to learn more about more Machine and her work,
you can find her on Twitter at the handle at
Mo Machine. It is spelled m o r e h
A s h i en her website as m O
r e h s h I n dot com, watching
dot com. And the exhibit that we talked so extensively
(48:05):
about is called She Who Sees the Unknown, and you
can find her the whole website about the entire project
at She Who sees the Unknown dot com. Absolutely check
it out. UM, read the reading room, watch the videos.
It's amazing. I hope you enjoyed that conversation as much
as I did. Now there are as many people in
(48:28):
the world with jin stories as there are gin, so
if you have one you'd like to share, make sure
to email it to me at the Hidden Gin at
gmail dot com. That's the Hidden Gin. Th H E
H I D d N d J I n N
at gmail dot com. And until next time, remember we
(48:48):
are not alone. The Hidden Gin is a production of
I Heart Radio and Grimm and Mild from Aaron Mankey.
The podcast is written and hosted by Robbiah Chaudry and
(49:10):
produced by Miranda Hawkins and Trevor Young, with executive producers
Aaron Mankey, Alex Williams, and Matt Frederick. Our theme song
was created by Patrick Quartets. For more podcasts from I
Heart Radio, visit the I Heart Radio app, Apple Podcasts,
or wherever you get your podcasts.
Welcome to The Hidden Gin, a production of I Heart
Radio and Grimm and Mild from Aaron Mankey. Hi, and
(00:31):
welcome to this very special bonus series of The Hidden Gin.
The interviews in these episodes, you'll hear me talk to
people from all walks of life who have had GIN experiences,
are drawn through the stories of Gin and draw lessons
from these stories. You'll hear from artists, scholars, writers, journalists,
and Gin exorcists, and even from me as I discuss
(00:53):
how and why this series came about in a very
personal conversation with my husband. Thanks for listening and enjoy.
I am very excited to introduce my guest for you
this week and artists like no other that you have
ever known. Marchan Alari is an artist, activist, writer, and educator.
She was born and raised in Iran and moved to
(01:14):
the US in two thousand and seven, and her work
deals with the political and social and cultural contradictions that
we face every single day. She's an acclaimed artist, the
recipient of the Joan Mitchell Foundation Painters and Sculptors Grant,
the Sun Dance Institute, New Frontier International Fellowship, and Leading
Global Thinkers of two thousand and sixteen award by Foreign
Policy Magazine. Her work has been part of numerous exhibitions, festivals,
(01:38):
and workshops around the world, including the Whitney Museum of
American Art, Pompadou Center, Museum of Contemporary Art in Montreal,
the Tape Museum, the Queen's Museum, Powerhouse Museum, the Dallas
Museum of Art, and so many more. Now, I came
across Machine when I was researching female jams, and I
came across her incredible project called she Who Sees the Unknown.
(02:02):
And in this project more Sheen uses three D scanning, modeling,
and printing to recreate monstrous female and queer figures from
Middle Eastern origins. Believe me, this is a conversation you
don't want to miss. Thank you so much for joining us,
um Moha Shane. It's a real pleasure to talk to you.
(02:23):
I have been fascinated with your work ever since I
discovered it earlier this year. Hi, thanks so much for
having me Rabbia, It's it's an honor. So um you
know I as you know you know. This UH Conversation
series is a companion to the ongoing series which will
which will have air by the time this this air
(02:43):
is UM called the Hidden Gin Podcast, and I drew
on a lot of different sources, and one of those
sources actually was the exhibit that I've found, and that's
how I discovered you called She who Sees the Unknown.
But before we get into that, I want to talk
a little bit about you say on your website, UM
about this exhibit that the Iranian traditions jin are fearsome
and honored, and that your upbringing in Iran was full
(03:05):
of ancient mythical narratives involving supernatural beings, and your bedtime
stories told to you by your grandmother often included gin.
So I wanted to ask you if you can tell
it a little bit about your upbringing, about your background
in Iran, and about the gin lore that you grew
up with. Yes, um So, I started to kind of
(03:28):
become interested in general since like three and a half
years ago, uh in these figures of monstrous female slash
genderless career figures in mythical stories UH that would origin
in West Asia or basically Middle Eastern UM ancient stories
and UM to kind of um give you a little
(03:51):
bit of I guess more summary of also like my
practice in relationship to that I. You know, I also
have been very interested in this relationship between technology and
history in that sense. So when I was doing this research, UM,
I was going through a lot of resources and books
and and material UM that would you know include this
(04:13):
this also like figure of of Gin within Islamic tradition studies.
And so that's when I when I became interested in
researching more um into the figure of the Gin. And
as you mentioned, it's a figure that I grew up
with in Iran. Whenever there were stories that kind of
(04:34):
were ghosts, these ghostly stories, et cetera, it would always
involve the figure of the Gin. And so a lot
of people who might have grown up in different countries
Islamic countries or Realistan countries probably also identify with this
that Jen is a figure that we grow up within
a lot of our our stories and time stories UM.
(04:57):
And at the same time that it's very feared as
a figu you're um, it's also very respected. So people
take certain kind of UM caution or like certain kind
of UH care in terms of the way they they
deal with the digen and the way that you shouldn't
interrupt certain spaces or you kind of can use different
(05:20):
methods as a way to not not be possessed by
by the gin. So, yeah, I'm gonna go on, please.
So for me, the figure of the Gin had this
personal relationship that I had with it, but at the
same time coming I was also like coming to it
from more of like a feminist perspective and feminism studies.
(05:44):
And that's something that I guess I can talk more
about later. Yeah, So, so I want to talk a
little bit about what your perspective on these stories were
as you grow up and maybe how that's changed, um
with adulthood. I also, you know, I grew up steep
kind of in this this this culture. Although my family
nobody totally told stories much, but you know, a couple
of Muslim kids get together and that's that was the
(06:06):
topic conversation often late at nights. Um, So, when when
you were being taught or told these stories where they
kind of like lessons that were being told to you,
or they told you to entertain or to maybe warn
you from certain behaviors, or was it taught to you
as something like this is real, Like you gotta take
this seriously. Um. I think it's a combination of a
(06:26):
couple of those things. You said, so most of it
as I as I. As you also mentioned, it was
told by my grandmother who lived with us, and you know,
I had a very close relationship too. And one of
the most vivid memories I have is um in a
in a summer and evening um almost like night, when
the stars were out, and it was me and two
(06:47):
of my my cousins who we all lived in the
same apartment building, and my grandmother was telling us about
her encounter with a gen um at a public bath
where she grew up, which is a village in Kurdistan
and west of Iran, and she was telling us, you
know how it was very common for women who would
(07:10):
go to these public bath houses to encounter gen And
one of the things that is also known or like
talked about about the gen is that they really like
spaces that are dark and humid. So basically, you know,
a place like a bath house is like a perfect
place for them to come and visit. So for me,
it was kind of like as a child, it was
(07:32):
a mixture of believing it and doubting it, like did
she really see it? Was it something else she saw that,
like she thought it's a gen um, But again like
because those stories get like repeated so much within different
people's experiences of encountering gen um. It's kind of like
becomes almost like an oral narrative of you know, a
(07:53):
relationship with this supernatural creature that is there and then
certain people encountered in certain or don't. And if you're
scared of it, then, as I mentioned earlier, you can
take certain actions um to to avoid it. Were you
ever aware and I wasn't aware until adulthood, and I did,
you know, my research kind of more deeply into into
(08:16):
this whole subject um that ginn or gendered um and
that there is a body of you know, folklore around
female gin in particular, or at least um people encounter
them as female gin. Was that something you were aware
of growing up or is that something you also learned
as you started doing your research into this project. Absolutely not.
(08:37):
My image of the gin as as this creature was
always male. And again this goes back to one of
the reasons I became really curious and also interested in
this this project that I worked on for for almost
four years. She was sees the unknown um which I
wanted to kind of find these female or almost genderless
(09:00):
uh stories and figures of of the Gin and also
like monstrous figures because UM also growing up in Iran
with a lot of mythical and you know, ancient stories
that are part of um our daily life but also
our you know school and like literature and education. Incredible
incredible stories. Yeah, and they're all always very you know,
(09:23):
all these figures are male. So I was wondering, like,
where are the female figures are mohere are the figures
that are perhaps like more and more queer, more like
a non binary in terms of like you know, gender
as like these things that you know in English were
like very specific about he and she, but in in
far Sea, actually there's no he or she for third person, right,
(09:43):
So I kind of like wanted to find also that
ambiguity within these these texts and material. And yeah, that's
that's how I came across so many female or generalist
figures of of Gin that were illustrated in different books
and and resources and material that I had no idea about.
(10:04):
Can you tell us UM a little bit about the
the exhibit again, its titled She who Sees the Unknown?
About the kind of um like the medium that you
used for this exhibit, I mean it's and I wish
I could. I don't know where is it this being
displayed right now, by the way, So it's more of
like a project. I mean, it has been exhibited in
so many different places, but when you go up to
(10:26):
my website she posives you on that time. It's a
research based project that has many different components and elements,
from performance to these three D printed sculptures that I
recreate from illustrations I find in older material, books, etcetera. Um,
to these new texts and narratives that I write about
(10:46):
each of these figures that I choose to work with.
And then there's an archive aspect of it, and also
like a reading room that I have been also working
on as part of the project. So um yeah, the
project itself again has many many different components um. And
then the exhibition in time i've shown it, it has,
(11:06):
you know, taken many many different forms. But within the
research I've done, I've come across many many texts and
material and an illustrations, but I've chosen to focus on
five specific figures, which are Huma, who is a gin
who brings fever to human body. Yeah, Judge jug who
(11:26):
are these figures that are kind of like monsters gen
like that are spoken in the Qoran that represent chaos.
The Laughing Snake, which is uh known as you know,
a very like powerful kind of hybrid animal human female
human combination that is known as you know, this figure
(11:50):
that is very um strong and is going through all
these like towns and cities and killing people and eating
all the animals, and no one can win a war
with her until um someone comes and say the only
way to kill her is to hold a mirror in
front of her, and when she sees her reflection, she
starts laughing, and she laughs for days and nights until
she dies from the laughter um. And then Caboos, which
(12:14):
is a gen that is known as a gen that
brings nightmare and si proalysis to human body. Um, and
then I shap and Disha. She's actually originally a Moroccan
gen um that is known to possess men, creating a
crack on their body. And the only way to not
go insane when you're possessed by her is to participate
(12:35):
with her and listen to her. So I use all
these you know, really beautiful complex stories, and then I
write new stories about them, and I turned them around.
I kind of connect different aspects of you know that
their their their power UM into different uh contemporary issues
and topics and also kind of these like futuristic alternative
(12:58):
reimagination of it's possible and the world. You've coined this
term refiguring, which I read about and you said refiguring
is about activation and preservation. Can you talk a little
bit about refiguring and UM when you when you think
about refiguring, when you go about it is the content
because I know, I mean a lot of your work
(13:18):
is UM. It has a social political UM aspect to it. UM.
I know in this exhibit where to talk about specifically
have some I mean, you just turned the story of
yah Juj Madjuj on its head for me, UM, but
you know a lot of it visibly like um colonization
and imperialism. But also are you also doing refiguring within
(13:40):
kind of your own cultural context? UM? Yeah, I mean absolutely.
I think the most important aspect of that is the
refiguration of UM. This this this figure of the female
monstrous female figure which is known usually as like negative
(14:02):
or or mean, which is kind of like you can
compare it to you know, the figure of the witch
um in in like Western literature and like kind of
like cultural productions which has been turned around through like
different feminist movements as something that instead of like being
considered you know, like this like figure off an old
ugly woman, uh, into you know, like a kind of
(14:26):
witchcraft movement, which is like empower empowerment for like women
to turn around that figure. So that's something I'm doing
within the cultural context of these um stories and also
the figures themselves, which is too you know, especially like
I mean, I can give you like an example with
let's say, the laughing snake, which I am kind of
(14:48):
turning around this idea that her her death because of
her laughter is considered a weakness, um, and I'm saying
that actually that position that she's taking is a position
of um, you know, empowerment, because she's taking away her
reflection from the mirror that is held by these men,
as you see in this like old illustrations in two
(15:11):
different resources. Um. And kind of then I used that
to tell a more contemporary story of growing up in
Iran and dealing with sexual harassment and you know, like
trying to figure out my body as a woman and
thinking about sexual desire and so kind of again trying
to like to find ownership of my body as a woman.
(15:33):
But also it's it's an experience that is very collective
in terms of like all when growing upment in in
Iran can can connect to these stories and these experiences
within spirit harassment, but also in a wider again um
connection to it. It's it's something that all women can
connect to and with in in different levels. So you
(15:55):
interpret the laughter, which actually when I first heard about
the story, I also kind of did as something that
was empowering. Yes, absolutely, because because you know, the way
it's I feel like sometimes it's told is more of
you know, she laughs and then she dies and that's
the end and they find a way to kill her.
But then again for me, she makes the decision had
(16:19):
laughter as a respond to what they're doing is like, um,
you know, very conscious decision of how to respond to
to that reflection that that she's witnessing being held by
these men. Um. Yeah. So and I and again like
this idea of refiguration or turning around power structures is
something that I became really interested in within this project
(16:42):
and how I can't do that through specifically also storytelling
and a narrative. UM that has political cultural components to it. Um,
I want to talk about boots, I thought, and I've
spent a lot of time on your website. I've watched
pretty which all the videos on there, and so the
boos are and they're also called al jathoom and they
(17:03):
are known to be kind of a race of gin,
kind of a category of gin that bring different um
sicknesses and trauma and nightmares. And the depiction is can
be quite frightening. Um, this gin is it looks like
there kind of this hovering above a human being in
in some of the illustrations I've seen as a person
(17:25):
sleeps um bringing nightmares to them. But your narration as
it relates to this figure was um just really I
mean it was kind of um, I don't know, I
I it really did bring me to tears because your
narration is about the story of your birth and the
story of you waiting for your mother as a child
(17:47):
to land every time she flew. So could you tell
us about that story and how um, how this this
the gaboos um lore resonates with it. Um. Yeah, So
I called boost was one of the figures that I
had come across with within my research and always kind
of like Helbert somewhere in my head to kind of
(18:08):
come back to. And actually she's the last figure from
this series that I worked on. Um So, as you mentioned,
car boost is known as a gen that brings um
nightmare but also specifically sleep proalysis to human body. Um so.
We also said in far seats also known as back deck,
(18:29):
which is kind of like known as this thing that
kind of you know, sits on your chest and one
that you move um and so you know, I kind
of started doing a lot of research first, like within
also like the scientific aspect of it, like what happens
when you experienced sleep paralysis. I don't know if you've
ever experienced that. Have you ever experienced sleep paralysis? I
have not, but my husband has, and he has described
(18:50):
it um as a gin to me, that's what he
believes it was. It's yeah, it's a very I've experienced
it um three times in my life, and I think
like most of those three times I was really like
stressed for like different reasons. And they say kind of
like from the scientific aspect of its stress also like
(19:11):
has you know, very kind of direct relationship to how
you experience this and why you experience it? But that
the gin experience that your your husband is talking about
is actually also very present in a way that that
that you experienced the paralysis when you're sleeping. My first
time that I had experienced it, I I literally saw
(19:34):
someone opening the window, but I saw myself seeing them.
So that's another thing that happens again within what happens
in your brain if you study it within scientific research,
is that you you become an image and then you
will be standing outside of that image then watching yourself.
And I experienced it completely like that, and that's really
(19:57):
scary because you see yourself not being able to move
while you're awake. Um So, anyway, I've been always like
fascinated by that because I also had like this personal
experience and I asked people sometimes you know about like
have your experiences, What was your experience with sleep parallels
if you did? Um So thinking about that and thinking
about kind of like basically trauma, right, A lot of
(20:20):
papers written on SAP parallelsis, as I said, is connected
to stress and trauma. And so I was like thinking
about trauma and I was like doing like a lot
of research in this um recent scientific also like research
that is this idea of intergenerational trauma, which is that
UM trauma stays in your DNA basically UM, and it
(20:44):
can be passed on within generations. Some people also call
it like blood memory, you know, so like the experience
of enslaved people, let's say, to experience of war, to
like other experiences that has been experienced too, again differ
different generations. It can be passed on that even if
you don't experience it yourself as a new generation, it's
(21:07):
still kind of stays within your DNA and your blood memory.
So I was fascinated by those this this These are
again like newer research UM and scientific studies, and I
wanted to somehow connect this relationship between trauma into generational
trauma too. Also my ideas of you know, when we
(21:27):
experienced into inter general trauma, like as a as a
person you know who is like now, like thirty five,
I think about birthing a lot, and I think about
children a lot, but also not wanting to have my
own my own child UM. And so I connect to
the story to like four generations of women, so my grandmother,
(21:47):
my mother, and myself and and imagined monsters like gen
like daughter UM. And then we all in different parts
of this VR film, we tell different stories about motherhood
and war and different different trauma and different encounter with
gin So and all of this happens in a in
(22:08):
a bath house. As I said at the beginning of
this conversation, UM, my grandmother always talked about bath houses
and also public bath houses at a time were really
important social spaces for women and intimacy between ways that
women would go and spend hours, you know, at a
at a bath house to bath, but also to hang
(22:29):
out and sing and gossip. Um. So this space of
intimacy was something I wanted to bring together, this four
generation of women for us to talk about different relationship
we had we've had with um trauma and then war
being a big part of me growing up in Iran.
And like this diary that I my mom gave me
(22:51):
when I was around sixteen or seventeen that she wrote
during um Irani Rock War when she was pregnant with
my sister Um and somewhere in it she talks about
how she feels guilty for giving birth to my sister
and she doesn't know if it's a right decision and
if it's a cruel decision. UM. And so that always
(23:13):
stayed with me, you know, as a teenager. It always
stayed with me because I would also kind of um
as my my, my, my parents are like this is
um and saying that how could your generation give birth
to this many kids? Because the eight years of War
had actually the highest rate of birth um and you know,
(23:33):
again like connecting that to my own um experience stuff
thinking about motherhood, but like rethinking motherhood and thinking about
birthing as something that could be you know, birth justice
is a specific word that I use in that narrative
which you talk about that which is not just I
mean the definition of birth justice is having the choice
(23:56):
um of you know, as as a woman having a
choice of when with who and um let's see when
with who? And I'll say that again in a second.
But I'm trying to what is it like who? You know,
let's see, I believe you said where. I guess it
is where. Yeah, that makes sense, okay, so let me
(24:18):
let me say that again. UM. So this I came
across this you know, kind of very specific definition of
birth justice, which is that as a woman having the
option to choose when with home and where to give birth? Um.
And I added to that, what to give birth to
(24:39):
UM you know, as my own kind of imagined way
of thinking about how to break through this intergenerational trauma cycle,
right um and kind of like the only way in it,
I say, the only way to to to to break
through this cycle is to reimagine the possibilities of what
we give birth to UM. And in this you know,
(25:01):
fictional story that I'm kind of building within the VR film,
I'm ear thing kind of like a monstrous gen mix
of like you know, a child UM that is human
and non human at a time, but kind of again, uh,
within thinking about monstrosity as something that can be a
position of empowerment, like embracing that that that monstrosity or
(25:25):
the figure of the gin um this this child is
able to see the future for us and help us
to build an alternative kind of kind of future, you know. UM.
So it's again sits between like a real and real
fictional and nonfictional more like documentary style UM film. But
(25:46):
for me um as as you as you also like
mentioned earlier, it's kind of like finding these stories and
then connecting them to something that is very personal and
also at the same time UM you know again can
be expanded to other other people's experiences. Well, that film
and um that particular exactly. I think it was jarring
(26:09):
to me in many ways. Also um hearing the voice
that the childlike monster voice. Uh. You know, there's a
real frightening aspect of course. I mean, like you know,
Gin are supposed to be frightening. They inspire fear in us. Um,
but I I feel like you're using that fear in
(26:32):
a very different way. UM. Can you talk a little
bit about what you think whether there's instrumental whether you
you are instrumentalizing the fear uh in a specific way
to to mean something else that not necessarily like the
fear means that these monstrous beings um are evil necessary
(26:56):
because there's a strong connection between Gin evil, especially the
Gin that we are told if the Gin encounter human beings, um,
the lores and those are definitely evil Gin. Yes, Um, yes,
So I mean that's a really great question because the
way that I have tried to try to build this
(27:17):
project and kind of build build and refigure these these
stories and figures is to find perhaps like a balance
between um, this this hybrid aspect of what Jin are.
So they're both feared uh and honored, right, so they can.
(27:37):
They can. They can be your friend and at the
same time your enemy. Um, you can. You can befriend
them and use their power. Like that's what they're known as.
Right If if you know how to like befriend the
gin and use their power, you can use that power
to possess other other beings are like make some something
happen within the world, right, Um. But also you can
(28:01):
be possessed by them. So there's always this sort of
gray area with the figure of the Gin um and
even in the Koran when they're talked about. You know,
we have the figure of the angel that obeys and
then the double that disobeys and um. Like humans, Gin
have the will to obey or disobey um and that's
(28:24):
something that made them, made made working with the figure
of the Gin really interesting from my research and and
and this body of work. UM. So yeah, I try
to kind of build a space where they're feared, but
at the same time we're in we want to know them,
we want to get to know that, we want to
enter their world and within the as I mentioned earlier,
(28:46):
the kind of the feminist movements and the feminism refiguration
of them. UM. I try to like use use their
figures UM as a way to again like find a
space for the empowerment of women and not non binary
people UM, et cetera. So it's it's really a mix
(29:09):
of these worlds that I tried to bring together UM
and also channel this power of after gin um for
our empowerment. We'll be right back after the short break.
One of the questions that I pose in there's one
specific episode that focuses on the female gin and one
(29:31):
of the one of those gin that's heavily focused on
a check and who was really rich? I mean, there's
so much tradition around that figure UM and but not
the other ones that you actually have included your exhibit.
But the question one of the questions I posed as
you know, as I was reading these stories, I wondered,
you know, I can see it playing both ways with
these stories UM, which in large part of these in
(29:51):
South Asian culture, you do not we don't. We don't
have access to stories of female gen anymore. These don't
exist anymore. I've never heard them anymore unless they are
like an unnamed which type of figure right UM or
something that's not as UM I guess, not not as
powerful as a second or a little bit or other
(30:11):
kinds of female figures. But I've always wondered, um, we're
were the were the perceptions around female gin? Do you
think a reflection of how society viewed viewed women? You don't.
We we have this. I mean, it's not uncommon to
hear in in a lot of Muslim cultures that, oh, yeah,
women are bent a little crooked, like the rib of
(30:34):
Adam because they come from the rib of atoms. So
there's something a little nefarious about women. Or I wondered,
are these stories of gin who, these female gin who
have so much power and can inspire so much fear?
Are these actually projections of the women at the time
themselves saying this is what we are capable of, and
you should hold a little fear and love and respect
(30:55):
all the same time. Yeah, I'd like to, you know,
I like to think that's why a big part of
it the the one that you just mentioned. But also
I'm pretty sure it's a combination of two pretty much,
you know, within looking at a lot of these stories
and kind of like also again, like one thing I've
I've been doing and researching is um also apparel Um
(31:18):
World of Um Western like figures or methodologies and how
they've been used within different like feminist movements, right, like
as I mentioned that the figure of the witch or
um the you know, we have the figure of the zombies,
which can be male or female, but definitely I think
um something that I have been fascinated by is um
(31:41):
that kind of patriarchal you know, heaviness of like how
how these figures are like not just that women are
like you know from as you say, there's like that
that's saying that women actually within some Islamic cultures and
thinking that are like even a considered half of men
right there, that incomplete and actually, to be fair, look,
(32:03):
it's not just mean the all the Abrahamic I mean
you know original sin, right, I mean like Christianity and Judaism.
It's exists, I was even not Abrahamic cultures, but certainly
absolutely exactly Like so that's my my research within like
other cultures and studies shows exactly what you're saying. That
like that that like patriarchal kind of like perspective towards
(32:24):
like women, their madness, they're like hysteria. Right, There's a
long history of hysteria and patriarchy within like women having
this hysteria or madness for different reasons. When you're like,
there's a whole Wikipedia of asia and hysteria. Well, America
still thinks that a woman is not emotionally stable enough
to become presidents. So yeah, and we have that within
(32:46):
you know, any iron for example, you can be a
judge as a woman because you are too emotional to
be able to like judge with with logic basically. So yeah,
So I want to tell I have to say this.
You know, I am I'm always uh and you know,
I'm an observant Muslim um, and but I have had
(33:08):
to rediscover my faith um in the last fifteen twenty
years because I realized that the gatekeepers who were teaching
us things have a very specific perspective, have a you know,
it's just the male perspective, as a very patriarchal, misogynistic perspective,
and so retelling the stories in a way that actually
makes sense to the I would say the spirit of
(33:30):
what I believe is a lot of faith is about
has really opened up a lot of doors for me.
But this retelling of yeah Jewish magut, I cannot tell you.
I can't stop thinking about this and I'm going to
talk about this with every other person I meet, um,
but for our listeners, just uh, you might you might
not be familiar with your judge, but you might be
(33:51):
familiar with Gog and Magogue, which is found in the
Biblical telling and the Talmudic telling. To telling and Gog
and Magogue are a race of beings that, it is said,
at least um I guess to be more specifically in
the Islamic tradition, that they are basically hidden behind a wall.
They have they they cause chaos. They are these beings
(34:12):
that if they're unleashed into the world they'll destroy it.
So for centuries and millennia they have been buried behind
this wall. Every single day they chip away at this wall,
and at the end of the day they give up
and say, well, we can't, we just can't get through.
But everythingle The next day they start over again, and
the as the story goes towards the end of time, um,
(34:35):
towards the day of judgment, at one point they're going
to breach the wall and completely be unleashed on this world.
But oh my gosh, you have to tell me how
you imagine the story in your own words. Absolutely, yeah,
so I came actually across UM this story sometime after
UH the Muslim band or travel band have happened in
(34:58):
the US, and I'm my stuff was also affected by it.
At a time, UM, I had left the US for
UM a week of exhibitions and conference that I was
part of in Berlin, in Germany, and then the band happened.
And at a time I had UM an Iranian passport
and a green card, and if some of you might remember,
(35:20):
at the beginning a green card holders were also like
included UH with the with the band and from if
you were from these six band countries. UM. So I
it was like such a strange, complicated moment where I
just didn't know if I could come back to the US,
and you know I have. I have lived here for
(35:41):
like now around eleven twelve years, and so that was
like a really intense moment of realizing everything I've built
here could just go go to zero. But obviously I
was privileged enough to have the green card and be
able to come back. While this story up to today,
four years later, almost UH is very relevant to the
lives of many people who are trying to come to
(36:05):
this country for for different reasons, as immigrants, refugees, etcetera. Um,
And so I came across the story of yahujuj Um
and you know this, this image of the wall was
something that was just stuck in my head because it
talks about the wall as something that they get these
figure zolor Aarin. In some texts they say it's Um
(36:27):
Alexander the Great Um to build this wall. Um and
these the people of the city asked for this wall
to be built to keep yah jud majus out because
they present chaos, as you also mentioned, Um. And so
reading I started to do a lot of research around it,
like reading different interpretations of this story, not just within
(36:48):
you know, the Islamic text itself, but but different interpretations
of Um. Different you know uh I guess um Muslim
scholars or just just people reading this story and coming
up with their own interpretation of what this means. And
one thing that was really fascinating to me is kind
of these these these different time zones and timelines of
(37:13):
how yeah judge magic or who yeah judge major had
been interpreted at as so somewhere like oh they were um,
you know, Turkish people or Mongolians who who attacked Iran
somewhere like you know, again saying that they represent Israel.
Um and you know, and again many many other interpretations
of them. But one thing that became very obvious to
(37:36):
me is how through many many centuries of this story
being interpreted, it shows that we always have found this
figure of the other, right or the other as a
way to make a monster of So what basically someone
like Trump calls the bad people um and you know,
the ones that can put America in danger or like
(37:59):
we don't want to let them come in because of rapists,
that they're the worst ones, right, absolutely, yeah, So how
through this monstrosity of these people, right, like making a
monster of these people? Um, through so many years, including
amoment we're living, these the other have been um justified
(38:19):
as those we need to keep out, those we need
to ban, those we need to reject and um. The
Islamic interpretation is that when the age come and break
through the wall, we're going to You also mentioned experienced
some kind of ending, and as you know, within Islamic studies, UM,
that ending is is both dystopian and in some ways utopian,
(38:44):
because the ending itself is dystopian, but it will it
will result to basically something, um, you know that we
want that is better, right, So, and and they use
this very specific term which is the end of time
that they doesn't say like and they kind of I
mean I read a lot about that specific frame, which
(39:06):
is the end of time. And yeah, that was just
really powerful for me because I was like, what would
the end of this time mean to us right now,
as you know, as Muslim, as people from you know,
even if you're not. I mean, it's about nationality at
this point, right if you're from Ivan, but whatever your
religion is, and other other countries that are also bound
(39:26):
as well. Um, So it's like what, you know, what
what would that end mean? And also for all these
other people you know, we are now. In the past
weeks there has been a lot of um conversations and
kind of protest etcetera, um about you know, um, black
(39:49):
people and and the struggle of black people in America
and and the history of slavery, etcetera. So it doesn't
matter how your other within this context of history, but
the fact that the otherness it has is almost always
linked to this monstrosity was something that was you know,
really fascinating to me. So I turned around again like
(40:10):
that that image and use the power of the chaos,
the monstrous, the one that is the other um as
a way to actually break through the wall and then
wish for some some other, some, some new beginning, another world,
an alternative reality that we can live in that is
not whatever it is that we're experiencing. Now, you're telling
(40:31):
us that the chaos that we fear, or that's feared
by certain powers, um, we ourselves have internalized fear of
that chaos. When that chaos itself could bring the end
of a time that's terrible for those of us who
are mothered um and could could usher in, you know,
(40:52):
whatever comes after the end of this time. UM. And
it's just such a uh an eye opening. And I'm,
like I said, I'm still I have to think about
this for a long time and talk about this for
a lot of people. But I also thought it was
really wonderful that you collectively imagine yeah, jujih Ma Juja
as this female figure um and that and you said
(41:14):
that she felt the burden of her people's exhaustion upon
her shoulders, the exhaustion of constantly trying to break through
the wall, um and yet not giving up. Yeah. Absolutely,
I mean, when I was writing it, it was again
very personal, but I was like horrified and at the
same time I knew that I have the privileges that
(41:35):
a lot of people don't have, so kind of like
thinking about yeah, us thinking about that story as a
story that becomes a poor doll in talking about and
um representing the pain of all these people who are
who are who are being other than being banned and
being rejected literally most times for no reason. So um,
(42:00):
that was something that became yeah, very heartbreaking and at
the same time painful to think about and write about.
It just really made me think about who we are,
what or who we are taught to fear um, and
to examine that a little more closely, And it really
brought to mind h and how you know, right right
(42:23):
post um, the post Civil War where there was like
this explosion of UM fear around black men attacking white
women and um, right like you know, with with birth
of a national movies, all kinds of media, newspapers, um,
And how we are systematically taught to fear something unquestioning,
(42:44):
without question And so this you have taught me to
question maybe what it is that we've been taught to
fear UM. And I think one of the one of
the things I love about how you framed this entire
UM project is that, UM, the female jin not only
has seen the unknown and the known, but she's embraced
(43:05):
being the other absolutely and and that's that's something that
I also try to use on my daily life and
my practice of UM not shying away from, you know,
wanting to constantly justify myself that I'm worthy, I'm good,
and I you know, because of this reason or that reason,
(43:26):
I am worthy of either you know, UM living in
this country or like having access to certain kind of resources,
et cetera. UM. But kind of again like rather UM
embracing the otherness and using it UM as a way
to to to criticize that that very very thing that
(43:48):
that has been UM, you know again mothering us. Okay,
I'm gonna end with one last question for you, UM,
but before that, I just to say thank you for
this incredibly illuminating conversation for your work. I'm going to
continue to follow it. I'm so excited to have discovered it. UH,
And we will point all our listeners and in that
(44:10):
direction too, so they can continue to follow you. And
my last question for you is this. Do you believe
you have ever personally had an experience with jin Um?
I think that the ones however you might think of
jin I mean, it doesn't have to it can be
whatever you jin is in your imagination, let me clear, right, Yeah,
I mean, so there are two things I can say.
One is that the actual experiences of that I was
(44:32):
telling you of this kind of nightmare sleep paralysis which
you literally feel like there is it's not just like
a nightmare, that there is another third person with you
in that space, right, So it's like you and the
GIN and also something else you know with with the GIN.
So it's that experience of the sleep paralysis has been
(44:54):
really intense and has stayed with me always. Um, and
when since I also start working on this project. You know, again,
I grew up anyone with a lot of these gen
related stories, etcetera. But um, it was not until when
I started to do this body of work. She was
just the unknown that I like really had to, you know,
(45:18):
spend a lot of hours researching. And also that that
caused like very real relationships that I had built with
each of each of these figures, right, like I can
I sometimes call them like my children. These like five
figures that that I you know, mentioned their names earlier
that I have worked on because to work on each
(45:38):
of them, I had to spend like hours not just
researching their history and the stories told about them, but
also like writing about them and really trying to like
imagine this thing as something that I'm like using its
power to to to to do something else with. Right,
and this like really became yeah, like a like a
connection that I never thought I would I would find
(45:59):
with something that I'm creating this intensely. Um but um,
this is this is all like in that sense very
like new to me. Um. So yeah, I I kind
of see them not just as you say, like I'm
able to imagine them also in many other forms and
(46:21):
like many many many other ways of their their presence
within like my personal life as well as what they
can do for the world and with the world. And
kind of last thing I want to mention is that
we really need a figure like the gen I I think,
especially within like these kind of um feminist movements and
(46:43):
thinking about women and uh kind of saying kind of
trying to like find something away or like different from
the dominant perhaps like Western white feminism movements for me,
the image of the gin is something that you know,
I I have found it so powerful because also it's
(47:04):
something that is for us. But one thing I say
that you know, to build this future for us but
by us, right um, And that's something that I think
they can do. And so that means that their their presence.
When this project is almost done, she will since unknown,
but I think their presence in my in my life
will um stay in many serious ways because I will
(47:24):
always think about them again as portals, as channels, as
as as friends and allies and allies that can help
us get through whatever it is that we're trying to
get through as as we struggle this this fair moment.
(47:45):
Thanks for checking out this week's episode and conversation. If
you want to learn more about more Machine and her work,
you can find her on Twitter at the handle at
Mo Machine. It is spelled m o r e h
A s h i en her website as m O
r e h s h I n dot com, watching
dot com. And the exhibit that we talked so extensively
(48:05):
about is called She Who Sees the Unknown, and you
can find her the whole website about the entire project
at She Who sees the Unknown dot com. Absolutely check
it out. UM, read the reading room, watch the videos.
It's amazing. I hope you enjoyed that conversation as much
as I did. Now there are as many people in
(48:28):
the world with jin stories as there are gin, so
if you have one you'd like to share, make sure
to email it to me at the Hidden Gin at
gmail dot com. That's the Hidden Gin. Th H E
H I D d N d J I n N
at gmail dot com. And until next time, remember we
(48:48):
are not alone. The Hidden Gin is a production of
I Heart Radio and Grimm and Mild from Aaron Mankey.
The podcast is written and hosted by Robbiah Chaudry and
(49:10):
produced by Miranda Hawkins and Trevor Young, with executive producers
Aaron Mankey, Alex Williams, and Matt Frederick. Our theme song
was created by Patrick Quartets. For more podcasts from I
Heart Radio, visit the I Heart Radio app, Apple Podcasts,
or wherever you get your podcasts.
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I’m Jay Shetty host of On Purpose the worlds #1 Mental Health podcast and I’m so grateful you found us. I started this podcast 5 years ago to invite you into conversations and workshops that are designed to help make you happier, healthier and more healed. I believe that when you (yes you) feel seen, heard and understood you’re able to deal with relationship struggles, work challenges and life’s ups and downs with more ease and grace. I interview experts, celebrities, thought leaders and athletes so that we can grow our mindset, build better habits and uncover a side of them we’ve never seen before. New episodes every Monday and Friday. Your support means the world to me and I don’t take it for granted — click the follow button and leave a review to help us spread the love with On Purpose. I can’t wait for you to listen to your first or 500th episode!
Stuff You Should Know
If you've ever wanted to know about champagne, satanism, the Stonewall Uprising, chaos theory, LSD, El Nino, true crime and Rosa Parks, then look no further. Josh and Chuck have you covered.
Dateline NBC
Current and classic episodes, featuring compelling true-crime mysteries, powerful documentaries and in-depth investigations. Follow now to get the latest episodes of Dateline NBC completely free, or subscribe to Dateline Premium for ad-free listening and exclusive bonus content: DatelinePremium.com