May 18, 2021 • 42 mins
This week Rabia welcomes "Turkish Delight", the "Blue Devil Imam", chaplain Abdullah Antepli, faculty at Sanford School of Public Policy. A dear friend and long time mentor, Abdullah brings to this discussion a lifetime of experience having lived in around the world in different societies and cultures that shared a belief in djinn and black magic.
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Speaker 1 (00:02):
Welcome to The Hidden Gin, a production of I Heart
Radio and Grimm and Mild from Aaron Minky. Listener discretion
is advised, Hi, and welcome to this very special bonus
(00:32):
series of The Hidden Gin. The interviews in these episodes,
you'll hear me talk to people from all walks of
life who have had Gin experiences, are drawn to the
stories of Gin and draw lessons from these stories. You'll
hear from artists, scholars, writers, journalists, and Gin exorcists, and
even from me as I discuss how and why this
(00:53):
series came about in a very personal conversation with my husband.
Thanks for listening and enjoy this week. I'm really excited
for you to meet my dear friend, Abdullah and Tapley.
Abula is a chaplain and he is the Associate Professor
(01:14):
of the Practice of Interfaith Relations at the Duke Divinity School.
He's also an associate professor at the Sanford School of
Public Policy. He has an incredible, incredible career. I met
him first in Hartford, Connecticut, when I moved to Hartford
after I got remarried to my husband or Fawn, who
you heard from in the first episode, and my husband
(01:35):
was studying to be a chaplain. Well, he was already chaplain,
but he was doing another chaplain cy degree, and we
moved to Hartford, Connecticut so he could go to the
Heart for seminary and Abdulah is the first person we met.
He took us under his wing. He introduced us to
the community, and he's amazing. So he's known as the
Blue Devil in mom because he's at Duke University. To
tell you a little bit about him, he from two
(01:56):
thousand and three he worked on a bunch of faith
based in humanitarian and relief projects in me and mar
and Malaysia. He's a founder and executive board member of
the Association of College Muslim Chaplains. He has served as
the first Muslim chaplain and Wesleyan. I mean, he just
has like this incredible career. He was Duke University's first
Muslim chaplain and then he became Duke's Chief Representative of
(02:19):
Muslim Affairs, where he engages student, faculty and staff across
the world pretty much. He is also a fellow on
Jewish Muslim Relations at the Shalom Hartman Institute and he's
actually the co director of the Muslim Leadership Initiative, and
that's a program that I did with him many many
years ago, but he's worked so long in the community
as a chaplain providing pastoral care to community members going
(02:42):
through all kinds of issues and students, especially in college campuses,
And we had just an incredible conversation around how that
pastoral care sometimes came right up against the issues around
like religious beliefs and spiritual beliefs, and how for some
students show such a difficult space to navigate. So alright,
(03:03):
check out this week's episode and enjoy my conversation with
a Dulla. I I know this is totally at my wheelhouse,
and I know you were like surprised to hear when
I'm thinking when I told you what I'm doing, but
I know you've been listening to the show, so that's
thank you for that. I am just fascinated. I was
surprised a little bit. Yes, it came out a little
unusual from what you have been doing already, but everything
(03:25):
you do come up meaningful, wonderful healing. And the first
and a half episode I have listened just didn't disappoint
me that you are putting together beautifully. How many different
traditions world cultures have engaged with this topic, and I
think you are even making people sort of creative questions
(03:46):
more than just giving some simple answers. I hope, I
hope so. But you know, so, I want to start off,
and I've told our listeners a bit about your background
and how how long we've known each other and been friends,
and your might been my mentor for for a long
time now. But I would like you to tell our
listeners a little bit about your background and your upbringing
so they know what part of the world you're coming from,
and and a little bit about your culture. Sure, I am,
(04:09):
as my students call me, a Turkish delight or a
Turkish delight. Imam originally from Turkey. I grew up in
the southeastern part of Turkey in a very secular household initially,
but became very religious in my early teenage years. And
that religiosity, that attraction to Islam, so you were like
radicalized basically, Yes, I was born again Muslim. And thank
(04:32):
god this this could have ended really terribly given how
many different variations were in the market. I had the
good teachers, good mentors, good friends. I could have ended up.
I remember in nineteen eighties, people were recruiting for jihad
in Afghanistan, and they look very appealing. It was incredible
(04:53):
religious fervor and language. I was very, very attracted to it.
But somehow, mainly through glenn Movement and Glenn's moderate teaching,
I was able to remain a moderate but still my curiosity,
my anxious hyper personality always allowed me to look for
(05:15):
different adventures. And I left Turkey immediately after college and
then lived in Southeast Asia, my hometown in my birth
town too, exactly exactly in in India, extensively traveled in
India Pakistan, and in addition to being Turkish, I am
also South Asian and Southeast Asian. Really I always felt
(05:38):
I should I should have been born in Lahore, and
absolutely everybody should be born in Lahore. And I also
related to the topic that we are covering. I was
able to see how the mystical beings and ghosts and
jins and and jaw doos and all these things have
been so uniquely in that part of the world. Lived
(06:02):
as an experience, and for the last twenty years or
so living in the United States, most recently here at
Duke University as the Blue Devil, I mom again as
my students call me, as a mom, as a professor
of Islam, as a as a huge fan of you
thinking working really hard to imagine that maybe in our
(06:23):
children's generation, Islam is a religion and Muslims as people
mustim Americans will have a better place in American society
and will be better a messages to this faith tradition
that we are part of. I hope so, and also
I also hope we come to I also hope as
a community we get we get to be better at
what we're supposed to be doing. We know about that. UM.
(06:43):
So let me ask you this. UM. You so you
because you were able to see you you were in
lots of different Muslim spaces globally, right. But I want
to know, like when it comes to this topic, like
you said, so you were you kind of gravitated towards
the Googlan movement. UM and not a lot of people
know what that is. But the whole mystical didn't have
(07:05):
kind of a mystical side of it, like an esoteric
mystical teaching is a close like Sufism. Was there a
lot of was there? What was it? I'll be honest.
I was raised by my mother who was um, you
know who is Wahabi, meaning she was kind of a fundamentalist.
They're very they're very spiritual, they're really not very spiritual,
and so we did not talk about these things. It
was like, yeah, yeah, it's there, is supposed to be there,
(07:26):
but whatever, you know, but what about you? Um I
in the Good Moment is not a traditional Sufi order
per se, but the Islam that they represent is deeply,
deeply embedded in the Sufi teachings of the Anatolian Turkish communities.
As you might already know earlier in the Republic, by
(07:46):
the violent implementation of secularism in Turkey, all the Sufi
shrines were outload and their orders were closed, etcetera. A
lot of the Sufi moments went underground, and some of
them survived as the Swiftly Order. But the Good At
movement it's a religious moment but also a social political moment.
(08:07):
They draw so much teaching from the from the various
Sufi orders. But also it's amazing. My my parents were
not religious. I grew up in an somewhat other white
Turkish nationalist tradition. Even though they were not religious, they
had so many superstitious well they believed in Jin's they
believed in Nazar, they believed in Hasset, they believed in
(08:29):
the evil eye, they believed in the power of evil gays,
that you could harm other people, or they believe that
the jins sometimes touched you. We had a couple of
mentally ill people in my in our neighborhood, and often
they're very severe mental health emotional health problem. We're always
explained to me as possessed by gin or their parents
(08:53):
did something wrong as they were raising them, or they
were as they were having sexual relationship during the moments
that a gin somehow entered into the soul of this
woman or this man. Wow, I did not know about
that theory there. Yeah, there is a that or I
don't know if you heard that one. It's a very
common belief that urine invites jin's and if you urinate
(09:19):
into a wrong place, or if you have urine in
part of your home or clothes, that could be you know,
that could make you vulnerable towards the effect of a
gin et cetera. I was always fascinated, but at the
same time, I simultaneously I hope this will be a
very honest and candid warning to the audience as you
study and learn about jin's um in many parts of
(09:42):
the world, not limited to the Muslim world, including the
United States. Because this is such a delicate subject, it
sort of claims to connect you to the world of unseen.
It's sort of claims sometimes to explain this unseen world
and try to relate it you. There's so much a
spiritual corruption in this field. Absolutely, people who are claiming
(10:07):
to communicate that unseen world and language. There are so
many charlatans and cheaters and groups um con artists. I
have seen all sorts of people jaw dos who basically
use this to build a spiritual authority on other people
and abuse that authority financially, sexually, emotionally, and otherwise. There
(10:32):
is so much corruption, and there is so much I
don't know how to say respectfully. Bs um the lies
b bs is good. Yeah, Yeah, there's a lot of
exploitation of this. There is a lot of exploitation of
this topic. And what I've seen is that exploitation ends
up um people who are very innocent and trust these
(10:54):
kind of clerics and these spiritual leaders like they end
up harming their loved ones when they take it as
the gospel truth that oh it must be a spiritual disease.
It's like somebody's black magic. It's a gin instead of
addressing like actual mental health issue. I'm curious you said
there's a mentally ill people in your community, your neighborhood
when you're growing up, and you were told that they
were affected by gin? Does that mean they were not
(11:16):
given like mental health treatment, they didn't get another professional care, Like,
how were they dealt with? Then? Not at all? Not
at all. Especially it's a lot better now in Turkish societies.
But I have seen similar deeply rooted stigma around mental
health in many of the developing world, in many of
the Muslim world, And I mean it exists here too,
but yeah, yeah, yeah, it's croquitly in the United States
(11:38):
among my students. How modern psychology, modern mental health, pastoral care,
or even clinical psychology is always uh, it's very difficult
for anyone to bring themselves to the level of openness
that you need to have. Um. There's so much fear,
there's so much taboo around it. Um. And and in
(12:00):
a way, this whole gin possession black magic became some
sort of a cop out answer. Um, because if you
have a mental disease, that means you're crazy. That means
your children will never marry suitable people. That means your
reputation and standing in the community will be ruined because
you come from a gene of crazy people somehow making
(12:23):
up these stories instead of seeing this as a disease
that's treatable to a certain extent, somehow these evil vicious beings, uh,
this swotless fire somehow affecting and therefore it's not their fault.
But it's been an disease or a calamity being inflected
on these people. It became sort of a cover, a
(12:46):
swap screening per se to many of the mental diseases
that a lot of people in the developing world, especially
the Muslim world, are going through. These people are shunned,
they have been subjected, as I said, all sorts of abuse.
Um then attempt to take that whatever possessed them out
of their system. You know what's shocking is the fact
that it is seen as less Basically, there's more stigma
(13:10):
attached to understanding these phenomena's mental illness than there is that. Oh,
like the better option is is deciding that now this
is like a demon possessing you versus oh, maybe it's
mental illness. You think that would be a greater stigma, right,
Like how do you marry off your daughter or your
son if you're like, yeah, she's got a demon, but look,
she's mentally healthy, but she's guys, is a demon you
(13:31):
gotta deal with. I mean it's you know how they're
weighing that. So but but look, you have been um
in chaplaincy providing pastoral care to a young American Muslims
for what two decades? Like what twenty years now? Twenty
years now? And so I am sure at that time
you have seen your share of situations where people come
(13:53):
to you thinking that they are afflicted by something like this.
I have seen the good, the bed and the ugly.
I don't know where should I start. Um, there is
also good in this I have seen. I hope your
program and similar programs will be a further invitation to
explore how the whole conversation around gin and ghosts and
black magic the traditional medieval language, especially if it is
(14:18):
seen as not literal but symbolic allegorical way of explaining
inner world of our souls and its connection. Um, and
especially if people with some psychological background or like me,
pastoral care background with some religious background, if they study
this genealogy, if that's the correct word, this Jin literature
(14:41):
um through that lenses. There is so much wisdom to
be explored and explored in a good way. I think
some of the language around Jin's no living much longer
than human beings know in your history. If you think
Jens are like energies and somehow at some point through
(15:03):
some experiences in your childhood, if these a certain sort
of psychology or energy constantly malfunctioning and sucking all the
energy out of your system and slowing you down or
causing emotional distress, there's so much to be explained. There
are not many people who are trying to bridge the
(15:23):
modern psychology with the medieval, traditional culture and religious language
around Gin. I have had many good teachers who never
charge money, who never really who never really tried to
exploit the situation on vulnerable people. And I have seen
few honest, pious religious people who are helping with their
(15:46):
knowledge of this Gin literature in the past. But that's
far and few in between, unfortunately, unfortunately, Well, how how
have you approached this issue when you've been confronted by it?
I don't dismiss it like most psychologists and most modern
literature or chaplains do it. I don't. I don't necessarily
(16:08):
I believe it conveys a message. I believe it gives
you a tool to communicate something not easily communicatable. I
don't believe it as a literal I view categoric. This
might be even controversial in some Muslim sort. Oh no,
are you about to like, uh like excommunicate yourself as
(16:30):
if I haven't done this already with a lot of
other issues, right, But I I really don't believe. I
believe Jenn's exist. I believe the basic chronic and the
prophetic message around them, but I categorically don't believe that
they They can't have any effect on you, and you
can't have any connection with it. They can harm you.
I don't think so. I it really contradicts my concept
(16:53):
of what is fair, God's God's mercy and compassion. If
you want, we can go there theologically what. I believe
they are there for a reason, Like the planets animals,
we learned so much from them. I think they The
sciences on these other creations can be a helpful tool,
especially for Jins trying to map out our soul map
(17:16):
out our emotional world and develop a tool and language
where we can actually engage with different aspects of human psychology,
human sexuality, human soul. They have that. To me, they
have a utilitarian role, and the utilitarian role only can
fulfill itself if he can not exclusive but primarily study
this Jin literature in our religion and traditions as a symbolic,
(17:39):
allegorical not literal things. So when you when you've had
people from the community or students who say they believe
that they're afflicted by this, to you, that's like a
door opening into the window of their basically mental state
of mind, right like their mental health or state of mind.
And it's just a language for you to be able.
(18:00):
We used to approach that absolutely. You said it more big.
Can I give you an example. I had a student
about a decade ago. He was convinced that there was
a gin and he was told by a jaw Do
or a person in Pakistan by that it's always a
person in Pakistan on whatsappen homosexual tendencies or his attraction
(18:21):
to same sex was caused by a particular Persian jink.
So I have a whole story like I could have
easily said that stupid and nonsense. You are gay because
God created you this way, or this is something psychological
nature or nurture. I just can't imagine the torment that
(18:41):
young man must have felt to hear this. That is,
that's so abusive. And and if I could, I could
just travel to Pakistan and find a way to make
sure this guy in Pakistan is arrested. Apparently he's very popular.
He charges hundred dollars an hour um and in Pakistan,
(19:02):
as you know that said wealth, imagine it's a lot
of money. He must be charging more now. But this
idiot in Pakistan, this corrupt soult, This morally repugnant so
called spiritual leader made this eighteen year old believe that
he's gay or he has gay tendencies because of this
Persian gin in him, and he can do all sorts
(19:23):
of Look, it's terrible. I cannot even come close to
understand the things that he asked him to do so
that this jin will go out of his system, including
drinking urine, Oh my god, and and things like that.
And he did all of this. Of course, being gay
doesn't go anyway. He's in a much better place now.
He's uh, he's a very successful personally and professionally. Thank god.
(19:47):
I think our relationship over the years have played a
modest role in his ability to find out what his
sexual orientation is and what this actually means and in
what way is um uh his my my me, not
totally refusing that Jin's story, why he thinks that's the case,
(20:10):
why there's an external effect or pressure on him make
him feel this way. It sort of helped us to
develop a respectful language to talk about this. He needed this.
He just couldn't bring himself to admit that he could
be gay. It must be caused by something that he
could fix, and he was holding onto that hope. I
(20:32):
am glad I didn't destroy that hope immediately, but over
time he's increased self awareness about who he is and
what this issue is about. He himself arrived at that conclusion,
and that process helped him tremendously. I mean, he's lucky
he had you there, Like in any other in another scenario,
that could have gone so terribly wrong, And mean he
(20:52):
could that could have ended up in him hurting himself
and him sound like, yeah, that could have ended up
so badly and that's just terrible. And and if you
look at the polls and statistics people who commit suicide
or cause harm and her to themselves and others, there
is a large proportion of them are coming from this
inner struggle, mental health issues, etcetera. And that's for a reason.
(21:15):
This could have gone really wrong. He could have gone
to a shrink and shrink would say this is all nonsense,
don't believe in any of this. Just celebrate your gainness.
He wasn't there at the beginning. He couldn't even bring
himself to even say the war or he could be
still in the destructive, destructive handle that idiot in Pakistan,
(21:36):
and that guy could have sucked the life out of him.
We'll be right back after the short break. During the series,
in different different episodes, we do explore situations in which
people have been exploited sexually but also like this financially
in many different ways because the manipulation of this kind
of charlotteans. But let me ask you this. You did
(21:57):
say right now a little while ago, that you fundamental
they believe that these are creatures that exist. Right, So
if that's the case, what we're talking about maybe, or
one way to think about it is that we kind
of all exist in our different dimensions, right, Like God
exists in his dimension and we exist. Now, do you
think that it's possible that there are times when the
veil between the dimensions thins, or that there are people
(22:20):
who are maybe more receptive to other dimensions that like
a skeptic like me. Not, I'm not a skeptic. That's
actually the wrong word. I'm like you, I believe it,
but I'm just one of those people. Like I really
thought by the end of this UM series I would
be like I'd have a gin possessed me, or or
at least contact me, Like I haven't even been contacted, right,
I just feel like I got this wall to whatever
other dimension. It's not gonna happen for me. Maybe you two,
(22:42):
But do you think there are some people that is possible? No? Really,
I honestly don't. And if if that was such a power,
I think it was given to profits and messengers who
are innately UM ready and also trained by God and
by angels to receive, to communicate, to be UM, to
(23:05):
be able to have access to that world. I don't think. So,
So what about go ahead? Maybe because I have seen
so much of that abuse, Yeah, I categorically become an
agnostic that no one can have direct access to that world,
and then it gives them such a power, such an
(23:26):
incredible power that I am so against that power. It's
always often used for evil purposes. No, no, no, I
was just speaking of I mean, there's like five different
things I would ask you in falling up to that.
But actually, um, speaking of power in in Pakistan, South Asia,
I'm thinking Bangladesh and in those countries, you know, black
(23:46):
magic is like it's very heavily used, even though it's
kind of like underground. You're not supposed to be doing
it obviously, it's not like allowed religiously, but it's a
big thing. It's a big thing, and many people swear that. Look,
there there are ways that you can kind of, you know,
harness the power of gin to do something like to
harm other people, to whatever kind of black magic you're
(24:08):
trying to do. I wonder what the culture around that is.
In Turkey, it's the same, Um, it's the same. But
I think in South Asia, I hope I'm not generalizing
too much. It's fine, it's okay, you can generalize on
my shown. I think in South Asia it's out of control. Yeah,
quite Honestly, it's not only among a certain population of
(24:30):
certain economic socio economic it's all over the place. It's amazing.
I think it might go as far as the Prime
Minister of the LA at this point. I don't know.
I don't know if you know anything about his story
and his latest wife, but it's interesting. I'm always well,
you know, imron Hahn is the prime minister, and I
Ron Hahn's latest wife is hit was a woman who
(24:52):
was his spiritual advisor up until recent She's a married
woman with grandchildren, and suddenly she can and you know,
she claims to these spiritual powers which you can see
who's doing what to him, and he really believed in
her for years, and then she came to him at
one point and said, I've been given revelation by God
that you're supposed to marry me. Now she's a married woman.
(25:12):
Her husband also came to him and said, I give
permission for my wife to divorce me and marry you,
the prime minister. And that's exactly what happened. So she
is now his wife, but also his spiritual advisor who
uses like these types of things to help him make
governmental decisions. Apparently it's what I've heard it's what I'm her.
(25:32):
So yeah, it's horrifying. You are just touching my unhealed
wounds about this. Anybody who believes in this crap shouldn't
be a prime minister of any country. Anybody who can
be calmed by any like God is speaking to me,
I should marry you. Um. And there are some really
painful examples recently, just as of last week. A Sufi
(25:54):
chef who who who convinced a mother that God spoke
to these men that he should have sex with with
her twelve year old daughter? Oh my god, where in Turkey?
And then thankfully it's sort of father had a little
bit more sense and mother gave this daughter, two year
old daughter to this guy. And it's a it's a
(26:16):
major public event. The last couple of weeks, Turks are
talking about nothing but this issue scandal. It's a huge
blow to the reputation of religion and religious people and
religious leaders in general. Um. Was he a well known
was he a well known religious leader? Well known, quite
well known in certain segments, and quite well one apparently
has thousands of followers. But a father of the twelfth
(26:40):
year old went to police and everything just came onto surface,
it's ugly, and then he and then they found out
that he molested multiple children younger than twelve, ten, eleven nine.
So here's a pedophile using this uh sort of deceptive
power that he has access the Gin's and black magic,
(27:02):
that he can actually heal people from the curse, from
the Nazar, from the evil eye, and then using this
con artists abilities and skills to do all sorts of harms.
In most cases, everybody is innocent until they're proven guilty.
But when it comes with gin black magic, everybody is
guilty unless they really prove that they are not. That's
(27:26):
my attitude, and that should be the attitude of most sane, educated, believing,
practicing Muslims and other other people. But why I totally
dismissed it despite my very clear disgust and the test
of these people is, I think there's a way in
which this issue, even though they don't really have any
(27:47):
power um. Over the years I came to realize some
of their practices of for example, this black magic. If
you look at what they do, I don't believe they
communicate with Jin's, but they sort of go through the
childhood of these individuals, they pick up certain patterns of
their mistakes. They put an honest mirror before them, so
(28:08):
we're not even knowing and having the proper exact trading.
They become this masterful overtime therapists U and these people
find comfort in this through they increased self awareness, they
have more motivation and empowerment in them, and they sort
of get healed. So there's there's like some kind of
therapy happening without anybody realizing it exactly exactly. And and
(28:34):
and also nobody wants to remain in pain. Nobody wants
to wake up every morning sitting on a pile of unprocessed,
unexplainable internal struggle. So there's so much desire to get better,
feel better, live a good life. Combination of this unintentional
therapy and people is willing to get better. I think
(28:57):
some magical things happen here. I have seen many people.
I have seen many people really going through very deep
clinical depression, so much sort of it's crippling them through
these black magic or jaw do sounds. Over time they
got better. But I think there's a different explanation. I
don't think they got it's a possible effect exactly exactly exactly.
(29:21):
And also not entirely place ebo in a way. Not
these people are getting on their own by positive thinking thinking,
that's something agical happening. I believe in the power of therapy.
My years of my pastoral care education showed me how
amazing the science of psychology has improved. How much more
we know now about what takes people off, how their
(29:43):
emotional world function. And these techniques of therapy do you
help people? But unfortunately a lot of these evil people
they use these techniques successfully, but they package it in
the form of communicating with gens or reading certain prayers
and rituals, or they blow into a leaf or a
water and that becomes heating effect. That's all crap. I
(30:05):
don't believe any of it. Okay, Having said that, here's
a question. I feel like I know the answer already,
but I want to ask you the question. Anyways, have
you personally ever had an experience that you could not explain? Oh?
Many times? Okay, tell me about it, many many times.
I have been um especially, I think you a very
(30:25):
good example. Something happened that I found myself because Trump
was elected. What happened? You know? I love you, know
how much I love America. I over idealized America and
how much I invested in American mustim identity. This is
my entire universe. Like I never thought it would get
(30:47):
this bad and this ugly, And since then, periodically I
found myself in a state of depression and sadness, Like
I don't understand why, Um, I've on myself spending really
hours struggling in the thickness of deep sadness and that
it sort of paralyzes me. I just don't know why
(31:08):
I cannot I'm not watching the news, not something physically
and listen. So you're saying this started in twenty s
not like just since the pandemic began. No, Okay, In
so many ways this pandemic is now helping me, huh.
This slowing down, not traveling, not in too busy, being
at home, taking long walks. In so many ways, It's
(31:31):
amazing how much it became a heating power and therapy
to me. But look, many people are depressed because of
what's going on in our political system. It since sixteen,
but mine was unusual. It was striking me in the
middle of nowhere. It was I couldn't drive. There were
several moments I had toppl over and take a couple
(31:51):
of a couple of deep breath and then and the
wishpring of these negative thoughts um and and like the
worst kids, not nightmare scenarios. It was just flooding in
my in my and then I have very good therapist,
and I know which resources in my spiritual and religious
(32:12):
tradition to look for. And it was very clear that
it wasn't just one thing. It wasn't suddenly a gin
or a ghost or a black magic was on me.
And my mother absolutely believes I got physically sick couple
of times, and she believed that it's black magic that
we should do X, Y and Z. It was very
clear at the end of this four years process, especially
(32:34):
the pandemics help. But no, it was a minor political
depression as a result of accumulated losses of dreams that
I the old high hopes and expectations that I have
built for Turkey, for America, for American Islam, all these
lost dreams. You know, it's sayding, That's what a lot
of these gin people or magic people know. They ask
(32:57):
you your unfulfill dreams. They asked you about unfinished aspirations.
That's that's where you get all these amorphal cuts so
deep that you always wanted to be X Y and
Z wanted to do ABC but never happened. And they
sort of explore this and they built the whole jin
story around that, like the ginn are preventing you from
(33:19):
doing this. I've heard this. I've heard this from friends
from very good, brilliant, smart, lovely friends of mine who said, well,
I I wanted to do this project or do this
with my life, and I can't because I'm bound by
gin uh. And it's shocking here. But let me ask
you in that experience, what was What was the part
that was like inexplicable to you? It was just where
this is coming from. Was there a supernatural element to this?
(33:41):
You believe it was always strucking in the happiest moments,
like there are places Ablulah and is happy when he's praying,
when he's with Muslims, when he's with his children, when
he's eating lamp chop or mumming. Yeah, you like their meats.
I know those times, Ablulah. I'm type you should be
a little Christmas tree just burst enjoy. It was coming
(34:04):
in that way. And also it was it was constantly
it was affecting me physically. It never happened to me before.
I never I was sad many times. I had many
traumatic experiences. I lived in war zones, but it wasn't
crippling me physically. This was new in the last couple
of years. Maybe I mean too personal. No, No, I didn't.
(34:26):
I didn't know you were going through this, And I'm
really sad that I did. I wish I had known earlier. Yeah,
it was. It was rough a couple of years, and
and it would just disappear on its own. It was
so intense, sudden, it comes and goes. It hits you
like a stick. And this disappears usually previous sadness or
minor depression. It sort of comes gradually, it stays with you.
(34:49):
There's always some sort of a visible trigger or mental
trigger to that stuff, which was out of the blue.
And like, I can totally see how subtle a do
or a say here, a person, a black magic person
can build a whole gin story as a as a
result of this, and why so many things are going
wrong in Turkey, in America, even American Muslim communities, or
(35:13):
personally to me, that somebody is jealous or envious or
has to put a curse on you put a person
you and it's it's amazing. I think people should be
incredibly resilient if they are not being as successful, as
good looking, as charming, as social, as popular as they want,
(35:33):
all of those things right here, right here there. I
think rarely it's because there's somebody who's so jealous that
his or her way and has the time and energy.
Right yeah, I just don't think so. I've never seen
a physical evidence. Hey, I don't think anybody has that power.
I don't believe anybody can be. Very few people are
(35:55):
that much entrenched in vengeance and hatred your life, just
trying to ruin your and also Pakistani housewives who might
disagree like I'm related to them, it's a divorcee couple
or if uttering husband or something like that. But some
of the stories like there's this um, there's again the
(36:17):
same student. He was convinced that this Persian jin who
makes him gay was about a Hindu family in India,
that this Hindu family knew who he was and just
was doing this magic with some really anti Semitic judaism
here and there. If you wait, wait, so there was
a Hindu family, a Persian gin and anti semitism all
(36:39):
in the same story used. I think as part of
this program, maybe you should collect some of these stories.
I would love to and and then people are in it.
They don't understand how crazy, how irrational, and how stupid
this is sometimes and maybebe if people here from other resources,
(37:00):
other people's experiences, like who can't make anybody drink urine?
I I just don't know. But again, this educated people
going to one of the best colleges in the in
the in the world, and he believed that that was
his desperation, that was his desperation, and that's a whole yeah, yeah, yeah,
how did he well? I want to know for you
(37:21):
the experience you went through, which so unexplicable to you.
You don't believe there's any supernatural element there. How did
you did it just suddenly go away as quickly as
it came on? No, because my initial diagnosis was not
I panicked. My initial diagnosis and my ongoing therapy as
a chaplain and you have to have a chapter and
(37:41):
you have to have a person who is also taking
care of your well being. I think those people also
were not used to this side of me. This was
something really unique and new. That's why the jin sort
of made a lot more sense to my mother. Um,
it didn't go away. Still, it didn't go away, but
I think I have a better handle of it now.
I have a way in which I can go back
(38:03):
and revisit these over idealized America, over idealized American Islam,
American Muslim community, or idealized secular democracy in Turkey. It is.
It is my own sort of recabalt caliber or my
own expectation and seeing where it really hurts me and
attending to those hurt and neglect is. But at least
(38:24):
I can breathe. It's it's not coming as frequent as
it used to be, and it's not hitting as strong
as it used to be, but it's an ongoing issue.
You know. The emotional depression is nothing but an emotional pain,
like physical pain. You cut yourself and you're that healing.
If the if the world is so deep, it takes
a lot of time. Yeah, yeah, it does take a
(38:45):
lot of time, and sometimes it takes a lifetime. Absolutely,
there's quickly summarized and recap. My general take on this
gin ghost black magic story. I think these are real
in the sense that there is a world that our
microscopes and are tell scopes can see and and there
is the world, and there are creatures and beings that
(39:05):
God Almighty has created live and function in that world.
There is a way in which we can learn without
necessarily having direct access to them, through their manifestation and
through their stories told in our tradition. And some of
these stories and realities that we have access to can
shed light into the modern psychology, human soul, our emotional world.
(39:29):
What makes us who we are and why are we
so peculiar in certain like why what are we attracted to? What?
What turns us on? What turns us off? There's so
much unexplainable aspects of human life and human soul. I
think that literature through these utilitarian eyes, without believing any
superstitious superpowers, should be studied in line with modern psychology.
(39:51):
And so I think there's no question that much of
our belief around Gin or angels or even God is
projections of what we think and feel and what we know,
because that's how our imagination is limited. Right when even
when we think about these creatures, the supernatural beings we
would leave in we're limited to the language that we know,
the emotions that we know, the of abilities, the capabilities
(40:13):
of powers that we believe could exist or do exist,
and that's it. And so that's just such. Yeah, so
that's evidence. And of then neb I am what my
servant thinks of me? Right, God said, Yeah? Yeah, God,
is this fire breathing, angry dragon who wants to punish
people for no reason? Then look effectively the God. The
(40:38):
energy will be that negative, destructive energy. That's your own projection, projection.
And I think a lot of the people, or these
spiritual creatures gain power because of people's perception. Welllthough, I
will say I'm only slightly disappointed because I was hoping
you would tell me that you have control over our
whole tribe of Gin or something. Imagine how many more
(40:59):
problems we could all Right, thank you so much again
of the I love seeing you, love you, love your family,
and uh, you know, stay safe and stay happy. I
hope you enjoyed that conversation as much as I did. Now,
there are as many people in the world with Jin
stories as there are Gin, So if you have one
(41:21):
you'd like to share, make sure to email it to
me at the Hidden Gin at gmail dot com. That's
the Hidden Gin. Th H e H I D D
E N d J I n N at gmail dot com.
And until next time, remember we are not alone. The
(41:46):
Hidden Gin is a production of I Heart Radio and
Grimm and Mild from Aaron Minkey. The podcast is written
and hosted by Robbia Chaudry and produced by Miranda Hawkins
and Trevor Young, with executive producers Aaron Mankey, Alex Williams,
and Matt Frederick. Our theme song was created by Patrick Quartetz.
(42:07):
For more podcasts from I heart Radio, visit the I
heart Radio app, Apple Podcasts, or wherever you get your podcasts.
Welcome to The Hidden Gin, a production of I Heart
Radio and Grimm and Mild from Aaron Minky. Listener discretion
is advised, Hi, and welcome to this very special bonus
(00:32):
series of The Hidden Gin. The interviews in these episodes,
you'll hear me talk to people from all walks of
life who have had Gin experiences, are drawn to the
stories of Gin and draw lessons from these stories. You'll
hear from artists, scholars, writers, journalists, and Gin exorcists, and
even from me as I discuss how and why this
(00:53):
series came about in a very personal conversation with my husband.
Thanks for listening and enjoy this week. I'm really excited
for you to meet my dear friend, Abdullah and Tapley.
Abula is a chaplain and he is the Associate Professor
(01:14):
of the Practice of Interfaith Relations at the Duke Divinity School.
He's also an associate professor at the Sanford School of
Public Policy. He has an incredible, incredible career. I met
him first in Hartford, Connecticut, when I moved to Hartford
after I got remarried to my husband or Fawn, who
you heard from in the first episode, and my husband
(01:35):
was studying to be a chaplain. Well, he was already chaplain,
but he was doing another chaplain cy degree, and we
moved to Hartford, Connecticut so he could go to the
Heart for seminary and Abdulah is the first person we met.
He took us under his wing. He introduced us to
the community, and he's amazing. So he's known as the
Blue Devil in mom because he's at Duke University. To
tell you a little bit about him, he from two
(01:56):
thousand and three he worked on a bunch of faith
based in humanitarian and relief projects in me and mar
and Malaysia. He's a founder and executive board member of
the Association of College Muslim Chaplains. He has served as
the first Muslim chaplain and Wesleyan. I mean, he just
has like this incredible career. He was Duke University's first
Muslim chaplain and then he became Duke's Chief Representative of
(02:19):
Muslim Affairs, where he engages student, faculty and staff across
the world pretty much. He is also a fellow on
Jewish Muslim Relations at the Shalom Hartman Institute and he's
actually the co director of the Muslim Leadership Initiative, and
that's a program that I did with him many many
years ago, but he's worked so long in the community
as a chaplain providing pastoral care to community members going
(02:42):
through all kinds of issues and students, especially in college campuses,
And we had just an incredible conversation around how that
pastoral care sometimes came right up against the issues around
like religious beliefs and spiritual beliefs, and how for some
students show such a difficult space to navigate. So alright,
(03:03):
check out this week's episode and enjoy my conversation with
a Dulla. I I know this is totally at my wheelhouse,
and I know you were like surprised to hear when
I'm thinking when I told you what I'm doing, but
I know you've been listening to the show, so that's
thank you for that. I am just fascinated. I was
surprised a little bit. Yes, it came out a little
unusual from what you have been doing already, but everything
(03:25):
you do come up meaningful, wonderful healing. And the first
and a half episode I have listened just didn't disappoint
me that you are putting together beautifully. How many different
traditions world cultures have engaged with this topic, and I
think you are even making people sort of creative questions
(03:46):
more than just giving some simple answers. I hope, I
hope so. But you know, so, I want to start off,
and I've told our listeners a bit about your background
and how how long we've known each other and been friends,
and your might been my mentor for for a long
time now. But I would like you to tell our
listeners a little bit about your background and your upbringing
so they know what part of the world you're coming from,
and and a little bit about your culture. Sure, I am,
(04:09):
as my students call me, a Turkish delight or a
Turkish delight. Imam originally from Turkey. I grew up in
the southeastern part of Turkey in a very secular household initially,
but became very religious in my early teenage years. And
that religiosity, that attraction to Islam, so you were like
radicalized basically, Yes, I was born again Muslim. And thank
(04:32):
god this this could have ended really terribly given how
many different variations were in the market. I had the
good teachers, good mentors, good friends. I could have ended up.
I remember in nineteen eighties, people were recruiting for jihad
in Afghanistan, and they look very appealing. It was incredible
(04:53):
religious fervor and language. I was very, very attracted to it.
But somehow, mainly through glenn Movement and Glenn's moderate teaching,
I was able to remain a moderate but still my curiosity,
my anxious hyper personality always allowed me to look for
(05:15):
different adventures. And I left Turkey immediately after college and
then lived in Southeast Asia, my hometown in my birth
town too, exactly exactly in in India, extensively traveled in
India Pakistan, and in addition to being Turkish, I am
also South Asian and Southeast Asian. Really I always felt
(05:38):
I should I should have been born in Lahore, and
absolutely everybody should be born in Lahore. And I also
related to the topic that we are covering. I was
able to see how the mystical beings and ghosts and
jins and and jaw doos and all these things have
been so uniquely in that part of the world. Lived
(06:02):
as an experience, and for the last twenty years or
so living in the United States, most recently here at
Duke University as the Blue Devil, I mom again as
my students call me, as a mom, as a professor
of Islam, as a as a huge fan of you
thinking working really hard to imagine that maybe in our
(06:23):
children's generation, Islam is a religion and Muslims as people
mustim Americans will have a better place in American society
and will be better a messages to this faith tradition
that we are part of. I hope so, and also
I also hope we come to I also hope as
a community we get we get to be better at
what we're supposed to be doing. We know about that. UM.
(06:43):
So let me ask you this. UM. You so you
because you were able to see you you were in
lots of different Muslim spaces globally, right. But I want
to know, like when it comes to this topic, like
you said, so you were you kind of gravitated towards
the Googlan movement. UM and not a lot of people
know what that is. But the whole mystical didn't have
(07:05):
kind of a mystical side of it, like an esoteric
mystical teaching is a close like Sufism. Was there a
lot of was there? What was it? I'll be honest.
I was raised by my mother who was um, you
know who is Wahabi, meaning she was kind of a fundamentalist.
They're very they're very spiritual, they're really not very spiritual,
and so we did not talk about these things. It
was like, yeah, yeah, it's there, is supposed to be there,
(07:26):
but whatever, you know, but what about you? Um I
in the Good Moment is not a traditional Sufi order
per se, but the Islam that they represent is deeply,
deeply embedded in the Sufi teachings of the Anatolian Turkish communities.
As you might already know earlier in the Republic, by
(07:46):
the violent implementation of secularism in Turkey, all the Sufi
shrines were outload and their orders were closed, etcetera. A
lot of the Sufi moments went underground, and some of
them survived as the Swiftly Order. But the Good At
movement it's a religious moment but also a social political moment.
(08:07):
They draw so much teaching from the from the various
Sufi orders. But also it's amazing. My my parents were
not religious. I grew up in an somewhat other white
Turkish nationalist tradition. Even though they were not religious, they
had so many superstitious well they believed in Jin's they
believed in Nazar, they believed in Hasset, they believed in
(08:29):
the evil eye, they believed in the power of evil gays,
that you could harm other people, or they believe that
the jins sometimes touched you. We had a couple of
mentally ill people in my in our neighborhood, and often
they're very severe mental health emotional health problem. We're always
explained to me as possessed by gin or their parents
(08:53):
did something wrong as they were raising them, or they
were as they were having sexual relationship during the moments
that a gin somehow entered into the soul of this
woman or this man. Wow, I did not know about
that theory there. Yeah, there is a that or I
don't know if you heard that one. It's a very
common belief that urine invites jin's and if you urinate
(09:19):
into a wrong place, or if you have urine in
part of your home or clothes, that could be you know,
that could make you vulnerable towards the effect of a
gin et cetera. I was always fascinated, but at the
same time, I simultaneously I hope this will be a
very honest and candid warning to the audience as you
study and learn about jin's um in many parts of
(09:42):
the world, not limited to the Muslim world, including the
United States. Because this is such a delicate subject, it
sort of claims to connect you to the world of unseen.
It's sort of claims sometimes to explain this unseen world
and try to relate it you. There's so much a
spiritual corruption in this field. Absolutely, people who are claiming
(10:07):
to communicate that unseen world and language. There are so
many charlatans and cheaters and groups um con artists. I
have seen all sorts of people jaw dos who basically
use this to build a spiritual authority on other people
and abuse that authority financially, sexually, emotionally, and otherwise. There
(10:32):
is so much corruption, and there is so much I
don't know how to say respectfully. Bs um the lies
b bs is good. Yeah, Yeah, there's a lot of
exploitation of this. There is a lot of exploitation of
this topic. And what I've seen is that exploitation ends
up um people who are very innocent and trust these
(10:54):
kind of clerics and these spiritual leaders like they end
up harming their loved ones when they take it as
the gospel truth that oh it must be a spiritual disease.
It's like somebody's black magic. It's a gin instead of
addressing like actual mental health issue. I'm curious you said
there's a mentally ill people in your community, your neighborhood
when you're growing up, and you were told that they
were affected by gin? Does that mean they were not
(11:16):
given like mental health treatment, they didn't get another professional care, Like,
how were they dealt with? Then? Not at all? Not
at all. Especially it's a lot better now in Turkish societies.
But I have seen similar deeply rooted stigma around mental
health in many of the developing world, in many of
the Muslim world, And I mean it exists here too,
but yeah, yeah, yeah, it's croquitly in the United States
(11:38):
among my students. How modern psychology, modern mental health, pastoral care,
or even clinical psychology is always uh, it's very difficult
for anyone to bring themselves to the level of openness
that you need to have. Um. There's so much fear,
there's so much taboo around it. Um. And and in
(12:00):
a way, this whole gin possession black magic became some
sort of a cop out answer. Um, because if you
have a mental disease, that means you're crazy. That means
your children will never marry suitable people. That means your
reputation and standing in the community will be ruined because
you come from a gene of crazy people somehow making
(12:23):
up these stories instead of seeing this as a disease
that's treatable to a certain extent, somehow these evil vicious beings, uh,
this swotless fire somehow affecting and therefore it's not their fault.
But it's been an disease or a calamity being inflected
on these people. It became sort of a cover, a
(12:46):
swap screening per se to many of the mental diseases
that a lot of people in the developing world, especially
the Muslim world, are going through. These people are shunned,
they have been subjected, as I said, all sorts of abuse.
Um then attempt to take that whatever possessed them out
of their system. You know what's shocking is the fact
that it is seen as less Basically, there's more stigma
(13:10):
attached to understanding these phenomena's mental illness than there is that. Oh,
like the better option is is deciding that now this
is like a demon possessing you versus oh, maybe it's
mental illness. You think that would be a greater stigma, right,
Like how do you marry off your daughter or your
son if you're like, yeah, she's got a demon, but look,
she's mentally healthy, but she's guys, is a demon you
(13:31):
gotta deal with. I mean it's you know how they're
weighing that. So but but look, you have been um
in chaplaincy providing pastoral care to a young American Muslims
for what two decades? Like what twenty years now? Twenty
years now? And so I am sure at that time
you have seen your share of situations where people come
(13:53):
to you thinking that they are afflicted by something like this.
I have seen the good, the bed and the ugly.
I don't know where should I start. Um, there is
also good in this I have seen. I hope your
program and similar programs will be a further invitation to
explore how the whole conversation around gin and ghosts and
black magic the traditional medieval language, especially if it is
(14:18):
seen as not literal but symbolic allegorical way of explaining
inner world of our souls and its connection. Um, and
especially if people with some psychological background or like me,
pastoral care background with some religious background, if they study
this genealogy, if that's the correct word, this Jin literature
(14:41):
um through that lenses. There is so much wisdom to
be explored and explored in a good way. I think
some of the language around Jin's no living much longer
than human beings know in your history. If you think
Jens are like energies and somehow at some point through
(15:03):
some experiences in your childhood, if these a certain sort
of psychology or energy constantly malfunctioning and sucking all the
energy out of your system and slowing you down or
causing emotional distress, there's so much to be explained. There
are not many people who are trying to bridge the
(15:23):
modern psychology with the medieval, traditional culture and religious language
around Gin. I have had many good teachers who never
charge money, who never really who never really tried to
exploit the situation on vulnerable people. And I have seen
few honest, pious religious people who are helping with their
(15:46):
knowledge of this Gin literature in the past. But that's
far and few in between, unfortunately, unfortunately, Well, how how
have you approached this issue when you've been confronted by it?
I don't dismiss it like most psychologists and most modern
literature or chaplains do it. I don't. I don't necessarily
(16:08):
I believe it conveys a message. I believe it gives
you a tool to communicate something not easily communicatable. I
don't believe it as a literal I view categoric. This
might be even controversial in some Muslim sort. Oh no,
are you about to like, uh like excommunicate yourself as
(16:30):
if I haven't done this already with a lot of
other issues, right, But I I really don't believe. I
believe Jenn's exist. I believe the basic chronic and the
prophetic message around them, but I categorically don't believe that
they They can't have any effect on you, and you
can't have any connection with it. They can harm you.
I don't think so. I it really contradicts my concept
(16:53):
of what is fair, God's God's mercy and compassion. If
you want, we can go there theologically what. I believe
they are there for a reason, Like the planets animals,
we learned so much from them. I think they The
sciences on these other creations can be a helpful tool,
especially for Jins trying to map out our soul map
(17:16):
out our emotional world and develop a tool and language
where we can actually engage with different aspects of human psychology,
human sexuality, human soul. They have that. To me, they
have a utilitarian role, and the utilitarian role only can
fulfill itself if he can not exclusive but primarily study
this Jin literature in our religion and traditions as a symbolic,
(17:39):
allegorical not literal things. So when you when you've had
people from the community or students who say they believe
that they're afflicted by this, to you, that's like a
door opening into the window of their basically mental state
of mind, right like their mental health or state of mind.
And it's just a language for you to be able.
(18:00):
We used to approach that absolutely. You said it more big.
Can I give you an example. I had a student
about a decade ago. He was convinced that there was
a gin and he was told by a jaw Do
or a person in Pakistan by that it's always a
person in Pakistan on whatsappen homosexual tendencies or his attraction
(18:21):
to same sex was caused by a particular Persian jink.
So I have a whole story like I could have
easily said that stupid and nonsense. You are gay because
God created you this way, or this is something psychological
nature or nurture. I just can't imagine the torment that
(18:41):
young man must have felt to hear this. That is,
that's so abusive. And and if I could, I could
just travel to Pakistan and find a way to make
sure this guy in Pakistan is arrested. Apparently he's very popular.
He charges hundred dollars an hour um and in Pakistan,
(19:02):
as you know that said wealth, imagine it's a lot
of money. He must be charging more now. But this
idiot in Pakistan, this corrupt soult, This morally repugnant so
called spiritual leader made this eighteen year old believe that
he's gay or he has gay tendencies because of this
Persian gin in him, and he can do all sorts
(19:23):
of Look, it's terrible. I cannot even come close to
understand the things that he asked him to do so
that this jin will go out of his system, including
drinking urine, Oh my god, and and things like that.
And he did all of this. Of course, being gay
doesn't go anyway. He's in a much better place now.
He's uh, he's a very successful personally and professionally. Thank god.
(19:47):
I think our relationship over the years have played a
modest role in his ability to find out what his
sexual orientation is and what this actually means and in
what way is um uh his my my me, not
totally refusing that Jin's story, why he thinks that's the case,
(20:10):
why there's an external effect or pressure on him make
him feel this way. It sort of helped us to
develop a respectful language to talk about this. He needed this.
He just couldn't bring himself to admit that he could
be gay. It must be caused by something that he
could fix, and he was holding onto that hope. I
(20:32):
am glad I didn't destroy that hope immediately, but over
time he's increased self awareness about who he is and
what this issue is about. He himself arrived at that conclusion,
and that process helped him tremendously. I mean, he's lucky
he had you there, Like in any other in another scenario,
that could have gone so terribly wrong, And mean he
(20:52):
could that could have ended up in him hurting himself
and him sound like, yeah, that could have ended up
so badly and that's just terrible. And and if you
look at the polls and statistics people who commit suicide
or cause harm and her to themselves and others, there
is a large proportion of them are coming from this
inner struggle, mental health issues, etcetera. And that's for a reason.
(21:15):
This could have gone really wrong. He could have gone
to a shrink and shrink would say this is all nonsense,
don't believe in any of this. Just celebrate your gainness.
He wasn't there at the beginning. He couldn't even bring
himself to even say the war or he could be
still in the destructive, destructive handle that idiot in Pakistan,
(21:36):
and that guy could have sucked the life out of him.
We'll be right back after the short break. During the series,
in different different episodes, we do explore situations in which
people have been exploited sexually but also like this financially
in many different ways because the manipulation of this kind
of charlotteans. But let me ask you this. You did
(21:57):
say right now a little while ago, that you fundamental
they believe that these are creatures that exist. Right, So
if that's the case, what we're talking about maybe, or
one way to think about it is that we kind
of all exist in our different dimensions, right, Like God
exists in his dimension and we exist. Now, do you
think that it's possible that there are times when the
veil between the dimensions thins, or that there are people
(22:20):
who are maybe more receptive to other dimensions that like
a skeptic like me. Not, I'm not a skeptic. That's
actually the wrong word. I'm like you, I believe it,
but I'm just one of those people. Like I really
thought by the end of this UM series I would
be like I'd have a gin possessed me, or or
at least contact me, Like I haven't even been contacted, right,
I just feel like I got this wall to whatever
other dimension. It's not gonna happen for me. Maybe you two,
(22:42):
But do you think there are some people that is possible? No? Really,
I honestly don't. And if if that was such a power,
I think it was given to profits and messengers who
are innately UM ready and also trained by God and
by angels to receive, to communicate, to be UM, to
(23:05):
be able to have access to that world. I don't think. So,
So what about go ahead? Maybe because I have seen
so much of that abuse, Yeah, I categorically become an
agnostic that no one can have direct access to that world,
and then it gives them such a power, such an
(23:26):
incredible power that I am so against that power. It's
always often used for evil purposes. No, no, no, I
was just speaking of I mean, there's like five different
things I would ask you in falling up to that.
But actually, um, speaking of power in in Pakistan, South Asia,
I'm thinking Bangladesh and in those countries, you know, black
(23:46):
magic is like it's very heavily used, even though it's
kind of like underground. You're not supposed to be doing
it obviously, it's not like allowed religiously, but it's a
big thing. It's a big thing, and many people swear that. Look,
there there are ways that you can kind of, you know,
harness the power of gin to do something like to
harm other people, to whatever kind of black magic you're
(24:08):
trying to do. I wonder what the culture around that is.
In Turkey, it's the same, Um, it's the same. But
I think in South Asia, I hope I'm not generalizing
too much. It's fine, it's okay, you can generalize on
my shown. I think in South Asia it's out of control. Yeah,
quite Honestly, it's not only among a certain population of
(24:30):
certain economic socio economic it's all over the place. It's amazing.
I think it might go as far as the Prime
Minister of the LA at this point. I don't know.
I don't know if you know anything about his story
and his latest wife, but it's interesting. I'm always well,
you know, imron Hahn is the prime minister, and I
Ron Hahn's latest wife is hit was a woman who
(24:52):
was his spiritual advisor up until recent She's a married
woman with grandchildren, and suddenly she can and you know,
she claims to these spiritual powers which you can see
who's doing what to him, and he really believed in
her for years, and then she came to him at
one point and said, I've been given revelation by God
that you're supposed to marry me. Now she's a married woman.
(25:12):
Her husband also came to him and said, I give
permission for my wife to divorce me and marry you,
the prime minister. And that's exactly what happened. So she
is now his wife, but also his spiritual advisor who
uses like these types of things to help him make
governmental decisions. Apparently it's what I've heard it's what I'm her.
(25:32):
So yeah, it's horrifying. You are just touching my unhealed
wounds about this. Anybody who believes in this crap shouldn't
be a prime minister of any country. Anybody who can
be calmed by any like God is speaking to me,
I should marry you. Um. And there are some really
painful examples recently, just as of last week. A Sufi
(25:54):
chef who who who convinced a mother that God spoke
to these men that he should have sex with with
her twelve year old daughter? Oh my god, where in Turkey?
And then thankfully it's sort of father had a little
bit more sense and mother gave this daughter, two year
old daughter to this guy. And it's a it's a
(26:16):
major public event. The last couple of weeks, Turks are
talking about nothing but this issue scandal. It's a huge
blow to the reputation of religion and religious people and
religious leaders in general. Um. Was he a well known
was he a well known religious leader? Well known, quite
well known in certain segments, and quite well one apparently
has thousands of followers. But a father of the twelfth
(26:40):
year old went to police and everything just came onto surface,
it's ugly, and then he and then they found out
that he molested multiple children younger than twelve, ten, eleven nine.
So here's a pedophile using this uh sort of deceptive
power that he has access the Gin's and black magic,
(27:02):
that he can actually heal people from the curse, from
the Nazar, from the evil eye, and then using this
con artists abilities and skills to do all sorts of harms.
In most cases, everybody is innocent until they're proven guilty.
But when it comes with gin black magic, everybody is
guilty unless they really prove that they are not. That's
(27:26):
my attitude, and that should be the attitude of most sane, educated, believing,
practicing Muslims and other other people. But why I totally
dismissed it despite my very clear disgust and the test
of these people is, I think there's a way in
which this issue, even though they don't really have any
(27:47):
power um. Over the years I came to realize some
of their practices of for example, this black magic. If
you look at what they do, I don't believe they
communicate with Jin's, but they sort of go through the
childhood of these individuals, they pick up certain patterns of
their mistakes. They put an honest mirror before them, so
(28:08):
we're not even knowing and having the proper exact trading.
They become this masterful overtime therapists U and these people
find comfort in this through they increased self awareness, they
have more motivation and empowerment in them, and they sort
of get healed. So there's there's like some kind of
therapy happening without anybody realizing it exactly exactly. And and
(28:34):
and also nobody wants to remain in pain. Nobody wants
to wake up every morning sitting on a pile of unprocessed,
unexplainable internal struggle. So there's so much desire to get better,
feel better, live a good life. Combination of this unintentional
therapy and people is willing to get better. I think
(28:57):
some magical things happen here. I have seen many people.
I have seen many people really going through very deep
clinical depression, so much sort of it's crippling them through
these black magic or jaw do sounds. Over time they
got better. But I think there's a different explanation. I
don't think they got it's a possible effect exactly exactly exactly.
(29:21):
And also not entirely place ebo in a way. Not
these people are getting on their own by positive thinking thinking,
that's something agical happening. I believe in the power of therapy.
My years of my pastoral care education showed me how
amazing the science of psychology has improved. How much more
we know now about what takes people off, how their
(29:43):
emotional world function. And these techniques of therapy do you
help people? But unfortunately a lot of these evil people
they use these techniques successfully, but they package it in
the form of communicating with gens or reading certain prayers
and rituals, or they blow into a leaf or a
water and that becomes heating effect. That's all crap. I
(30:05):
don't believe any of it. Okay, Having said that, here's
a question. I feel like I know the answer already,
but I want to ask you the question. Anyways, have
you personally ever had an experience that you could not explain? Oh?
Many times? Okay, tell me about it, many many times.
I have been um especially, I think you a very
(30:25):
good example. Something happened that I found myself because Trump
was elected. What happened? You know? I love you, know
how much I love America. I over idealized America and
how much I invested in American mustim identity. This is
my entire universe. Like I never thought it would get
(30:47):
this bad and this ugly, And since then, periodically I
found myself in a state of depression and sadness, Like
I don't understand why, Um, I've on myself spending really
hours struggling in the thickness of deep sadness and that
it sort of paralyzes me. I just don't know why
(31:08):
I cannot I'm not watching the news, not something physically
and listen. So you're saying this started in twenty s
not like just since the pandemic began. No, Okay, In
so many ways this pandemic is now helping me, huh.
This slowing down, not traveling, not in too busy, being
at home, taking long walks. In so many ways, It's
(31:31):
amazing how much it became a heating power and therapy
to me. But look, many people are depressed because of
what's going on in our political system. It since sixteen,
but mine was unusual. It was striking me in the
middle of nowhere. It was I couldn't drive. There were
several moments I had toppl over and take a couple
(31:51):
of a couple of deep breath and then and the
wishpring of these negative thoughts um and and like the
worst kids, not nightmare scenarios. It was just flooding in
my in my and then I have very good therapist,
and I know which resources in my spiritual and religious
(32:12):
tradition to look for. And it was very clear that
it wasn't just one thing. It wasn't suddenly a gin
or a ghost or a black magic was on me.
And my mother absolutely believes I got physically sick couple
of times, and she believed that it's black magic that
we should do X, Y and Z. It was very
clear at the end of this four years process, especially
(32:34):
the pandemics help. But no, it was a minor political
depression as a result of accumulated losses of dreams that
I the old high hopes and expectations that I have
built for Turkey, for America, for American Islam, all these
lost dreams. You know, it's sayding, That's what a lot
of these gin people or magic people know. They ask
(32:57):
you your unfulfill dreams. They asked you about unfinished aspirations.
That's that's where you get all these amorphal cuts so
deep that you always wanted to be X Y and
Z wanted to do ABC but never happened. And they
sort of explore this and they built the whole jin
story around that, like the ginn are preventing you from
(33:19):
doing this. I've heard this. I've heard this from friends
from very good, brilliant, smart, lovely friends of mine who said, well,
I I wanted to do this project or do this
with my life, and I can't because I'm bound by
gin uh. And it's shocking here. But let me ask
you in that experience, what was What was the part
that was like inexplicable to you? It was just where
this is coming from. Was there a supernatural element to this?
(33:41):
You believe it was always strucking in the happiest moments,
like there are places Ablulah and is happy when he's praying,
when he's with Muslims, when he's with his children, when
he's eating lamp chop or mumming. Yeah, you like their meats.
I know those times, Ablulah. I'm type you should be
a little Christmas tree just burst enjoy. It was coming
(34:04):
in that way. And also it was it was constantly
it was affecting me physically. It never happened to me before.
I never I was sad many times. I had many
traumatic experiences. I lived in war zones, but it wasn't
crippling me physically. This was new in the last couple
of years. Maybe I mean too personal. No, No, I didn't.
(34:26):
I didn't know you were going through this, And I'm
really sad that I did. I wish I had known earlier. Yeah,
it was. It was rough a couple of years, and
and it would just disappear on its own. It was
so intense, sudden, it comes and goes. It hits you
like a stick. And this disappears usually previous sadness or
minor depression. It sort of comes gradually, it stays with you.
(34:49):
There's always some sort of a visible trigger or mental
trigger to that stuff, which was out of the blue.
And like, I can totally see how subtle a do
or a say here, a person, a black magic person
can build a whole gin story as a as a
result of this, and why so many things are going
wrong in Turkey, in America, even American Muslim communities, or
(35:13):
personally to me, that somebody is jealous or envious or
has to put a curse on you put a person
you and it's it's amazing. I think people should be
incredibly resilient if they are not being as successful, as
good looking, as charming, as social, as popular as they want,
(35:33):
all of those things right here, right here there. I
think rarely it's because there's somebody who's so jealous that
his or her way and has the time and energy.
Right yeah, I just don't think so. I've never seen
a physical evidence. Hey, I don't think anybody has that power.
I don't believe anybody can be. Very few people are
(35:55):
that much entrenched in vengeance and hatred your life, just
trying to ruin your and also Pakistani housewives who might
disagree like I'm related to them, it's a divorcee couple
or if uttering husband or something like that. But some
of the stories like there's this um, there's again the
(36:17):
same student. He was convinced that this Persian jin who
makes him gay was about a Hindu family in India,
that this Hindu family knew who he was and just
was doing this magic with some really anti Semitic judaism
here and there. If you wait, wait, so there was
a Hindu family, a Persian gin and anti semitism all
(36:39):
in the same story used. I think as part of
this program, maybe you should collect some of these stories.
I would love to and and then people are in it.
They don't understand how crazy, how irrational, and how stupid
this is sometimes and maybebe if people here from other resources,
(37:00):
other people's experiences, like who can't make anybody drink urine?
I I just don't know. But again, this educated people
going to one of the best colleges in the in
the in the world, and he believed that that was
his desperation, that was his desperation, and that's a whole yeah, yeah, yeah,
how did he well? I want to know for you
(37:21):
the experience you went through, which so unexplicable to you.
You don't believe there's any supernatural element there. How did
you did it just suddenly go away as quickly as
it came on? No, because my initial diagnosis was not
I panicked. My initial diagnosis and my ongoing therapy as
a chaplain and you have to have a chapter and
(37:41):
you have to have a person who is also taking
care of your well being. I think those people also
were not used to this side of me. This was
something really unique and new. That's why the jin sort
of made a lot more sense to my mother. Um,
it didn't go away. Still, it didn't go away, but
I think I have a better handle of it now.
I have a way in which I can go back
(38:03):
and revisit these over idealized America, over idealized American Islam,
American Muslim community, or idealized secular democracy in Turkey. It is.
It is my own sort of recabalt caliber or my
own expectation and seeing where it really hurts me and
attending to those hurt and neglect is. But at least
(38:24):
I can breathe. It's it's not coming as frequent as
it used to be, and it's not hitting as strong
as it used to be, but it's an ongoing issue.
You know. The emotional depression is nothing but an emotional pain,
like physical pain. You cut yourself and you're that healing.
If the if the world is so deep, it takes
a lot of time. Yeah, yeah, it does take a
(38:45):
lot of time, and sometimes it takes a lifetime. Absolutely,
there's quickly summarized and recap. My general take on this
gin ghost black magic story. I think these are real
in the sense that there is a world that our
microscopes and are tell scopes can see and and there
is the world, and there are creatures and beings that
(39:05):
God Almighty has created live and function in that world.
There is a way in which we can learn without
necessarily having direct access to them, through their manifestation and
through their stories told in our tradition. And some of
these stories and realities that we have access to can
shed light into the modern psychology, human soul, our emotional world.
(39:29):
What makes us who we are and why are we
so peculiar in certain like why what are we attracted to? What?
What turns us on? What turns us off? There's so
much unexplainable aspects of human life and human soul. I
think that literature through these utilitarian eyes, without believing any
superstitious superpowers, should be studied in line with modern psychology.
(39:51):
And so I think there's no question that much of
our belief around Gin or angels or even God is
projections of what we think and feel and what we know,
because that's how our imagination is limited. Right when even
when we think about these creatures, the supernatural beings we
would leave in we're limited to the language that we know,
the emotions that we know, the of abilities, the capabilities
(40:13):
of powers that we believe could exist or do exist,
and that's it. And so that's just such. Yeah, so
that's evidence. And of then neb I am what my
servant thinks of me? Right, God said, Yeah? Yeah, God,
is this fire breathing, angry dragon who wants to punish
people for no reason? Then look effectively the God. The
(40:38):
energy will be that negative, destructive energy. That's your own projection, projection.
And I think a lot of the people, or these
spiritual creatures gain power because of people's perception. Welllthough, I
will say I'm only slightly disappointed because I was hoping
you would tell me that you have control over our
whole tribe of Gin or something. Imagine how many more
(40:59):
problems we could all Right, thank you so much again
of the I love seeing you, love you, love your family,
and uh, you know, stay safe and stay happy. I
hope you enjoyed that conversation as much as I did. Now,
there are as many people in the world with Jin
stories as there are Gin, So if you have one
(41:21):
you'd like to share, make sure to email it to
me at the Hidden Gin at gmail dot com. That's
the Hidden Gin. Th H e H I D D
E N d J I n N at gmail dot com.
And until next time, remember we are not alone. The
(41:46):
Hidden Gin is a production of I Heart Radio and
Grimm and Mild from Aaron Minkey. The podcast is written
and hosted by Robbia Chaudry and produced by Miranda Hawkins
and Trevor Young, with executive producers Aaron Mankey, Alex Williams,
and Matt Frederick. Our theme song was created by Patrick Quartetz.
(42:07):
For more podcasts from I heart Radio, visit the I
heart Radio app, Apple Podcasts, or wherever you get your podcasts.
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