March 8, 2023 • 39 mins
What sort of mother would help her family plan the murder of 8 people? We’ve spent years speculating on Angela Wagner’s role in the Rhoden murders, but as she takes the stand, her story leaves us all shocked.
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Episode Transcript
Available transcripts are automatically generated. Complete accuracy is not guaranteed.
Speaker 1 (00:02):
After spending four days listening to Jake Wagner testify against
his older brother George, jurors today heard from both boys mother,
Angela Wagner. She speaks of her husband and her sons
in a very loving manner. She's really presenting today as
a sweet, loving mother. She's there to save her life,
(00:28):
but also the lives of her family. Lord knows how
many people they had actually stolen from. It sounds like
the Old West because they've even gotten involved in poaching
and cattle rustling. You can have sympathy for somebody, but
when you take part in killing eight people, sorry, that
all goes out the window. This is the piped and
(00:54):
Massacre Return to Pike County season four, episode nineteen and
takes the stand. I'm Courtney Armstrong, a television producer at
Kat's Studios with Stephanie Leidecker and Jeff Shane. It's important
to note that George Wagner the fourth has pleaded not
guilty and maintained he did not kill anyone. His father,
(01:15):
Billy Wagner, whose trial is upcoming, has also pleaded not
guilty to all charges. We've heard testimony from Jake Wagner
about his role in the crimes against the Rodin, Manly
and Gilly families. Today we're hearing from another pivotal witness
for the prosecution and accused Giller comes face to face
with his mother for the first time since both were
(01:36):
arrested four years ago. Yours today heard from both boys mother,
Angela Wagner, looking somewhat frail and wearing a drab jail uniform.
The fifty two year old Wagner took the stand around
ten fifteen this morning. Wearing a drab black and white
jail uniform. Angela Wagner walks into the courtroom. James Pilcher,
longtime investigative reporter from Cincinnati now with Local twelve, was
(01:59):
there when Angela arrived at court, so one thing that
her appearance was much different than in the past. Her
hair was much longer. One of the other interesting details
is that she was shackled much like her son was,
but the change were much lighter, so they made a
much different noise on the floor as she walked by.
It was more like a clink clink, clink, rather than
(02:20):
clank clank clank. Here Stephanie, who was also in the
courtroom during Angela Wagner's testimony. You can literally hear her
with her shackles coming down the hallway, which was such
an eerie sound. James Pilcher describes the atmosphere in the
courtroom that day. The courtroom, you could have heard a
pin drop, Jake, It wasn't like that. But when we're
(02:40):
waiting for Angela, for the mother of the suspect who's
on trial, it was deathly quiet because everybody has always
thought that she was the mastermind behind all of this,
and I think that was one thing that they were
anticipating coming out. And there was also the tension of
knowing a mother and her son were going to see
each other for the first time with her testifying against him.
(03:02):
So there was a lot of tension and very very
quiet in that courtroom when we're waiting for her to
take the stand. When she sat down, she didn't even
look at George, and George pretty much looked like he
had his eyes down the entire time. Angela Wagner chose
to opt out of having her testimony recorded. Therefore, the
only people who heard her testimony were the jury, the judge,
(03:24):
the respective attorneys, and the family and media that were
present in the courtroom. Here's Jeff speaking with Annette Levy,
investigative reporter and host for Law and Crime. They opted
out because they could. I thought it was completely ridiculous.
You're a cooperating witness, you're convicted. You should be forced
(03:44):
to get up there and face the music on camera,
be recorded. All of these Roaden family members got up
there and bared their souls and were recorded, And you know,
why shouldn't he and Angela have to do the same.
Does the jury know who opts in and opts out? No?
I don't believe so, because the bailiff would go over
(04:06):
and tell the photographer or tell members of the media
who opted and who opted out. Here's forensic medical examiner
Joseph Scott Morgan. It's so very easy to forget the Rodents,
and I guess on a spiritual level, since this all
kind of kicked off, I've always imagined every single member
(04:27):
of that family in a spiritual form, sitting on the
front row watching seeing if they're going to receive any
level of justice, and this is part of that justice.
These people, these poor poor victims, they deserve to have
each individual story told when it comes to their deaths.
(04:49):
This is a mass murder. You know their lives ended
it at the end of the muzzle of the weapon
and cut short every single one of them, every singer.
They still be here with today. I have no doubt,
you know, and they deserve their due. Prosecutor Angiekineppa begins
her opening remarks for the day. We said that if
anyone else came forward and could tell us something that
(05:14):
was consistent with what we had just heard, that would
do two things for us, and it would just be
stronger corroborating evidence that another member of the Wagner family
was giving us the same information without knowing exactly what
Jake had said, right, And that person that came forward
was Angela Wagner. Kneppa comes right out of the gate
(05:37):
with the question everyone has been wondering about. One thing
that really stuck out to me was they approached her
much differently than they did Jake. At the very very beginning,
at the very opening of her testimony, they ask a
point blank, are you guilty of taking part in these murders? Yes?
Did you help plan them? Yes? Did you help prepare
(05:59):
for it? Yes? Did you aid in a bet? Yes?
Who else took part? My husband, Billy, my son is George,
and Jacob, So suffice it to say, all four of
you were involved in these homicides that night. Yes, she
was at point blank, are you guilty of aggravated murder?
She said, yes, we all are. That was a really
(06:23):
key moment. Here's Mike Allen, attorney and legal analyst who's
been following the case from the beginning. I think the
fact that Angie Kneppa asked the question are you guilty
and the answer from Angela was yes, That's a big
part of her testimony, and I think just getting that
out upfront lets the jury know that, you know, she's
(06:47):
not messing around here. She's admitting to her involvement in it.
Not necessarily fire on any weapons, but she was in
it up to her neck and that was established early
on in her testimony. Special Prosecute Kneppa asked Angela Wagner
about her childhood here again Stephanie. Angela said, this is
(07:07):
the first time I had heard this. She has sort
of this messy relationship with her own father because she
was feuding with him a bit about having sex. Then
she goes to the military and is sexually assaulted, leaves
there and gets married very quickly with Billy and she
(07:28):
speaks of frankly Billy and her grandbabies and her sons
in a very loving manner. You know, she's really presenting
today as a sweet, loving mother. On the stand, Angela
isn't quite what we expected. She's soft spoken and as
a bit of a baby talker, and instantly I was
(07:51):
expecting a much bigger presence. Here's Jeff and Angeinette. What
do you make of that? Do you think that's an
act or do you think that's she's kind of changed
in jail. I think she was probably a nervous bee,
doesn't want to be there. She may be feeling badly
about throwing her son under the bus, implicating him in
these homicides. But at the same time, I think that
(08:14):
she's a master manipulator. I think she's good at playing
a role when she has to. So you don't really
buy it. I mean, I don't buy the meat mild
mannered part of it. I think maybe in that instance
that was her, but she's just quiet and soft spoken. Obviously,
that's not what we've heard from Angela Wagner on the wiretaps,
(08:36):
or what we heard about Angela Wagner from Tabitha's testimony.
Or Elizabeth Armer's testimony. As we've talked about incessantly, she's
been this monster in our minds and certainly in mind.
This is the big bad wolf, right this is her
day in court, and this is the monster we've been
talking about, and we know that is true. She's admitted it.
(08:59):
We've heard helpless stories about it. I'm told it's coming.
We're going to see the crack in her very soon.
But right now, it's kind of like watching a movie
in a way. It's almost as though, what's that movie?
Primal Fear? And Edward Norton has sort of an interesting dialect,
and he has mannerisms that are very specific, and then
(09:21):
at the very end, when he's proven to be innocent,
then you find out that he's Ah, I was lying
the whole time, and he doesn't have an accent. He
was just pretending to be this completely different person. And
it feels like she's that right now. And I have
to be honest with you, it's very believable. You know,
we've been tracking this case so closely, and then you
(09:42):
look at jurors and you have to hope they're not
buying it. Here again, James Filcher, the juxtaposition between what
you heard on tape and what she presented in person
was much much different, much more low key, much calmer,
much more me As for her demeanor, again, she's there
(10:06):
to save her life but also the lives of her
family as part of her plea deal, So she obviously
is going to be on her best behavior. So I
think that was part of it. But I also think
part of it she was probably on her meds and
she admitted that. During cross examination, Prosecutor Kaneppa asked Angela
(10:27):
Wagner about when Jake and George were children. Wagner testifies
that she didn't think George and Jake were getting the
one on one attention they needed at public school, so
she and Billy decided to homeschool them, and they began
by interrogating her about how she raised Jake and George,
explaining that she homeschooled them both until high school while
their father, Billy Wagner, allegedly taught them how to steal
(10:48):
from trucks and trailers. There's obviously a lack of socialization there.
I mean, these kids were raised and when I say kids,
Jake and George and this kind of upbringing where they
were homeschooled and didn't really have a lot of exposure
to the outside world. Of course, they knew people outside
(11:09):
of their family, but not many. They didn't really have
a lot of friends outside of you know, people who
worked at the Flying w and things like that. So
they didn't have a quote unquote normal childhood. And there's
questions about the curriculum. They were taught that they needed
to be deferential and polite, not to act up things
(11:30):
like that, but it was almost in a way that
they were taught these things so that they could get
away with crimes and not necessarily so they could be
good human beings. We heard about some of this education
in Jake's testimony. Angela Wagner's testimony expands it on the
family dynamic. She speaks about how the family would set
fires to their properties and file insurance claims. That was
(11:55):
one thing that the prosecution did too, and they did
it with Jake, but they did it more with Angela,
and that is they clearly laid out how Angela was
involved and planned several criminal acts leading up to all
of this, including the arsons. They rebuilt the house again
up there on Frederica's property and Fredrikas said, well, I'm
(12:19):
going to sell the property and you're not going to
really be compensated for the house. And at that point
Angela said, I don't want anybody to live in this
dreamhouse that we built with our own bare hands. So
they burned it down for the insurance money, and they
walked through all of that. It's interesting because the way
Kanneppa did this was chronological, and Angela's towards the end
of this trial, and so it's almost like she's confirming
(12:40):
all the things that we've heard. They talked about the insurance,
the fires, all of these pieces that we've heard about.
Angela is like, yes, that happened, Yes, that happened, Yes,
that happened. What do you make of that? I think
miss Caneppa was doing that on purpose to show that
the testimony, Angela's testimony god with the fish call evidence
(13:00):
in the case. And I think it was a good
strategy because it did line up in her testimony, I
mean pretty solidly. So I think that was a good strategy.
And again, as I said, I think Angela came off
as pretty credible. The defense lean did on these planned
arsons during cross examination. Here's James Pilcher, followed by Stephanie.
(13:23):
The defense started its cross examination by leaning into Angela's
previous criminal acts, including arsons for insurance money, shoplifting, and
helping steal diesel fuel and truckloads of goods. I think
it is going to prove to be very relevant. They're
painting a picture of her, although she was very sweet
and cute all day. At the very end cross examination happened,
(13:44):
and that was a jaw dropper because George's defense attorney
puts on a pretty good display and kind of talked
us through Angela's early years and then they start getting
into where she lives and how they ended up at
the house in the end that she lived, which was Pugs.
What he was painting the picture for was that, Yeah,
(14:04):
she has in fact burned down by arson. Three houses.
She had to admit to that today in the court
of law. He was like, this house was very expensive.
How did you get the money for this house? Oh? Wait,
get into the house before this house. What happened to
that house? Oh, it burnt down, But how did you
get the money for that house? Oh? The house before that,
(14:27):
Oh that one burned down. So three houses and I
think a garage all burnt down. You got insurance money
for all of them. On cross examination, the defense asks
Angela Wagner if Jake and George were involved in the arsons.
Angela's response, yes, but who gives a damn? By the way,
(14:49):
when all these arsens were happening, George was one time
he was sixteen, one time George was fifteen. Like George
was in the home during these shenanigans. Angela also testified
about other crimes she's committed with Billy in front of
the boys, including pill running. Prosecutor Canepa asks Angela Wagner
if she's ever stolen fuel, before Angela responds yes, she
(15:13):
was the lookout. Angela also testified that Billy taught the
boys how to safe in fuel. I think that they
see themselves as engaging in justifiable outlawry if you will
that you know the government is all bad. We're really
representative of the working people you know here in this community.
(15:35):
You know it's cliche, but you know our family has
been here for generations. We know we don't know what
the real story is here. We know that you're not
going to get ahead in this world and this hardscrave
of life that we're leading. You're not going to get
ahead in this world unless you you steal, going to
some hard working families home or the farm and robbing
(15:55):
them or burglarizing and taking what is not that and
being able to justify that. It's you know, it's a
real Lord of the Flies moment and its survival of
the fittest. And they had done that. You know, Lord
knows how many people they had actually stolen from in
that community. You know, you you think about things just uh,
(16:16):
you know, two by fours and wood paneling and you know,
going out to job sites and essentially robbing hard working
people of the things that they need to get by on.
It sounds like the Old West because they've even gotten
involved in poaching and cattle rustling of all things, you know,
student livestock. So that's an operation. That's that's not a
(16:37):
one man operation, is it. That's that's that's a lot
of work. It's not like little old Jake is just
running around doing all of this stuff with his crazy father.
You've got to have multiple hands on the wheel here.
And I think that you know, this goes to George
and this this steevery this, you know, nefarious behaviors it's
(16:58):
like a virus. I think that just it spreads like
wildfire through a family because you know, it's the children
bear witnessed it when they're growing up in the home,
and they know that this is just part of life,
that they're involved in it, and you know what, it
was probably normal for them to go and take food
out of people's mouths. There's a question of whether this
(17:18):
kind of testimony about Jake and George's upbringing is making
them sympathetic to the jury here again Joseph Morgan, followed
by Antinette Levy. For George a point in his life
that he was at he was still going to be
bullied by Billy and potentially by Angela as well. I
think Angela is probably chief among centers here. He just
couldn't get out of his own way. And so I
(17:41):
guess if the jury can take away some bit of
sympathy for George as he's you know, he's on trial
there in the courthouse, I guess that's that's probably where
it would come from. There may have been a little
bit of sympathy, but I don't think there was a
whole lot. I mean, you can have sympathy for some
but when you take part in killing eight people. Sorry,
(18:04):
that all goes out the window. It might be an explanation,
but it doesn't excuse it. We're going to take a break.
We'll be back in a moment. The prosecution asks Angela
(18:24):
about her relationship with her daughter in laws. We've heard
in previous testimony how George's ex wife, Tabitha was essentially
cut off from her child by the Wagner family. We've
also heard about how Angela claimed to love Hannah May
Roden like a daughter, but there was friction over custody
of the child she shared with Jake. We've spoken before
about how Angela wanted to spy on Hannah Roden's Facebook activity.
(18:48):
Prosecutor Kanepa asked how she got access to her passwords
to monitor Facebook. According to Angela, she asked Jake and
he gave it to her. Joseph Scott Morgan, she controlled everything. Now,
you controlled everything, even now to the relationships that you
know that she had, that her sons had, you know,
(19:08):
outside the home, you know, with with these women that
came into their lives, and when you're in a position
of power where you can control people to the point
where their romantic interest is trumped by your ability to
manipulate them where you would be willing to, you know,
(19:28):
at her direction, compel your lovers to give over passwords
and access. Just that one point alone is really eye catching.
Angela used this access to social media to share screenshots
about custody of her granddaughter with the family. She was
also trying to get information on Tabitha, George Wagner's ex wife.
(19:50):
This is not what she said, but she's intimating that.
She says, protecting her boys away from these bad girls. Essentially,
he's a reminder of what Angela Wagner said when she
was recorded by the b CI at the Canadian border.
So your relationship with Hannah was good. Now I thought
she was a school wreck, but I thought she was
(20:11):
a school rap because she really was. I mean, no offense,
but she was her dad that ever get away with
every name and I'll want She would give me looks,
and she was narrow, and she would tell Jacob was
being mean, and you know, but that's typical teenager. They
are all typical. Sometimes mother in laws and yep, time
(20:32):
and time again, Wagner would bring it back to how
her family was everything to her and informed everything she
did but the prosecution brings up an incident with Tabitha
that we haven't heard about before. Here's Jeff speaking with
Long Crimes Anjeannette Levy. She also said some weird things
about Tabby. Angie Kineppa asked her about Tabby and said,
(20:55):
you know, did Tabby ever try to poison you or
anything like that. She's like, yes, and she was just
adamant about it, just like Jake was adamant like about
certain things. She said. She described how Tabby one time
put dog hair in her coffee, and she and Jake
liked a particular type of vanilla coffee, and she said
(21:16):
she had her coffee cup one time and Tabby had
made this cup for her and she looked at it
and she, you know, she's she said, Jake, is there
there's dog hair in this coffee. And she was serious
as could be, and she said Tabby was laughing about it.
And she described another time where Tabby had made some
kool aid for George that he liked and he got
really sick. So she has these like things that she
(21:40):
kind of comes up with. The dog hair in the
coffee thing was just astounding to me. She truly believed
that I don't know if it actually happened. I can't
imagine somebody putting dog hair in somebody's coffee. Just seems
like such a strange thing. But if they believe it,
it's gospel. This belief in the untrue and the ability
to convince her family of it, is one of Angela's strengths.
(22:04):
According to forensic examiner Joseph Morgan, you know, you think
about Billy, and you know Billy's they're teaching young Jake
how to hot wire car and sealing it. Well, she's
doing the same thing. It's justifiable for you to betray
somebody that you claim to love if it's for the
greater good of the family and so. And it's amazing
(22:25):
how you can psychologically leverage somebody with information like that,
isn't it? Where you can be the driver that you
have this in dwelling in inertia, you know that carries
over to the family, push them in the direction which
you so desired. It was one belief in particular that
Angela held that helped set in motion the events that
(22:45):
led to the murder of the Rodent, Manly and Gilly families.
Angela testified she became worried her granddaughter was being abused
while staying with the Rodent family. She said, quote, I
realized something was happening, some kind of abuse was going
on that needed to be stopped. Angela Wager was asked
if she loved Handah. She said, yes, I did at
(23:07):
one point, but issues made me feel like was being
sexually abused. Angela said she became concerned over signs of
abuse and claims that her grandchild would often appear reluctant
to leave and return to Hannah since they had shared custody.
James Pilcher here's her direct quote. She said, I realized
something was happening, some kind of abuse was going on
(23:27):
that needed to be stopped, and she said she didn't
trust child services or the law or law enforcement that
needed did her husband, Billy. We've already established that Billy
was a doomsday er. Billy hated police, Billy paid his
kids to spot police. Billy taught his kids how to
be thieves. So this all set into it. Although Angela
(23:51):
didn't want to kill him, it was some of the
ways she would answer. She was like, well, why did
you do this? Well, we were protecting her, and she
almost appeared like she was in a frog on the stand.
But then when it got to that, it was almost
like she was razor white hot when she would talk
about protecting that little girl. And then they talked about
Angela's past in the Air Force and all of this
(24:14):
surrounding ever present fear of sexual abuse, and it became
almost a paranoia and you could see it in display
clearly when she started talking about that. So the lead
reasoning has been that she felt as though it was
being sexually molested or was going to be sexually molested,
(24:38):
not that there's ever been proof of that, but that
was the reasoning, and that at some point she noticed
that Frankie Roden kissed on the lips saying goodbye, and
that felt a little strange. In fact, she actually says
that told her mother, Rita Nukom, who at the time
(24:58):
was living next door to her with her grandmother, that
she was being touched inappropriately, and then Rita Neukom repeated
that to Angela, and then Angela repeated it to Jake
and the entire family, George and Billy. At that point
when Jake found out about it, rather than talking about
(25:18):
it with the Rodents or anything, they just started putting
this plan together to protect her, and she had to
protect the babies. But apparently Angela Wagner's assertions of abuse
were not based in reality. This fear that the little
girl would be molested. The prosecution basically says that was
something they kind of whipped up in their heads to
(25:40):
justify what they wanted to do. They are entitled and
feel that this children should be with them and no
one else. There is no doubt that this family wanted
those kids to be one hundred percent Wagoner, and that's
what this is all about. They had convinced themselves there
may have been some abuse, but that was basically window
dressing for their their belief that these kids should belong
(26:02):
to them, regardless of any actual evidence of abuse. The
idea had been planted in the minds of the Wagner family,
and Angela stoked the fire. I think that she's probably
arguably the smartest one in the crew, and the reason
I think that that's quite ominous. I think she knew
what buttons to press with all three of these men
(26:24):
in her life. You know, she's probably known how to
control them their entire lives, or at least that portion
of Billy's life that he was with her. She knew,
you know, where to press, how far she could go
to attain her goals, if you will, in any of
this and anything that she set her mind to doing.
And you know, she wanted to be be the head hancho,
(26:47):
you know, in the family, and she was. She told
Drors she suspected the Rodents were abusing, did not take
her to the doctor. Said we didn't believe in the
justice system, didn't believe in children's services, she said. By
January twenty sixteen, her husband started coming up with the
plan they had to be murdered. She said. She went
to her husband, Billy, with her concerns, saying she wanted
(27:08):
to turn in Chris Rodent Senior for growing marijuana. Billy
nixed that, coming up with an alternate plan. She said, quote.
The plan was they needed to be murdered. Later, she said,
her husband told the entire family quote, this was going
to change everything. According to Angelo Agnes's testimony, Billy came
up with the plan for murder. Billy ultimately decided that
(27:32):
the only way was to kill Hannah, and that they
couldn't stop short of killing Hannah Rodin, the mother of
but they would have to kill Chris Rodin Senior because
he ultimately exercise control over Hannah Rodin and the Roden family,
and that other witnesses, other members of the Roden family
would have to be killed for it to be successful.
(27:52):
That's essentially what Angela testified, and that really was Billy
who was the driver here. Angela wanted to turn Chris
Senior in for his marijuana and then that would get
the family in trouble, and therefore maybe Jake would get
more visitation rights or more control over the fate of
(28:14):
his daughter and her granddaughter. Well, of course that cut
too close for home for Billy, because Billy had been
in business with Chris. Chris Senior had tried to teach
Billy how to grow marijuana. And then so she says,
Billy came up with this alternate plan. Here's the quote quote.
The plan was they needed to be murdered. Yeah, and
then it progressed from there that, Okay, we're gonna start
(28:37):
talking about how we're gonna do it. And she said
that they would actually have conversations with the water running
or outside in the car port, with the car running,
without the TVs on, with no phones around, because they're
so paranoid of being overheard. During one of these meetings
with George and Jake Wagner in the kitchen, Angela asked
(28:58):
her sons if they wanted to go through with them.
According to Angela, they said yes. Joseph Morgan says that
the accusation of molestation would get the rest of the
Wagner family to do what Angela wanted. She was the
person that had the thirty thousand foot view of the
entire family. She saw where all the weaknesses were, she
(29:18):
saw where the strengths were, and she knew what the
goal was in order to win, you know. And I
think that her endgame has always been to have, you know,
total control over the Wagner family. And you know, she
was going to be She's a Rutter own ship. She's
she's the master of the ship as well, and all
of these people are there to do her bidding. And
(29:38):
you know, Billy may have had this thought at a
real primal level. I think that he needed to take
care of the roads. But it was, in my opinion,
at least it was an Angela that was overlording all
of this all the way along. In episode four thirteen,
we saw evidence of how Angela manipulated Billy through text messages.
I am moving on. You are more than one to
(30:00):
come bring babies and come on, Angela, well, they are
not our babies. And I would never do that to
George and Jake. I would have killed someone if they
would have even mentioned going away with my babies. And
if you really missed me, you would do anything or
go through anything for me. Billy. It's a fine mess, Angela. Well,
maybe it is worth you helping me work it out, Billy.
(30:23):
I got a plan if you just take one damn
minute and listen, Angela. Okay, tell me, Billy when I
see you. This is the last time I am going
to try. If the three of you don't take time
to listen to me, then oh well, Angela, okay. Joseph Morgan,
isn't it amazing I find you know? And Angela is
certainly a fine example of this. It's very easy for
(30:46):
her to rationalize justify her actions. She doesn't necessarily do
in court, but the lead up to it, when she's
the driver behind all this, is that she's looking out
for the greater good of the family. You know, it's
the winomen The women are all women of ill repute.
The kids that she does not have in her immediate control,
(31:08):
run the risk of being sexually molested, that she needs
to be one to provide watchcare, and the family has
to watch over them at all time. The rest of
the world is evil, We're the ones that are right.
And isn't that interesting how her worldview kind of parallels
that of Billy's. While Angela testified it wasn't her idea
(31:28):
to murder the rudents, she did admit to helping plan
the crimes. Now. While on the stand, Angela Wagner admitted
to him staying at home on the night of the murders,
but said she helped her sons and husband prepare for them.
Here's Prosecutor Angie Kinneppa laying out what Angela Wagner bought
to prepare for the murders. She admits to buying the
shoes for her sons. We show Jake at least his
(31:54):
awards card being used to buy seven sixty nine thirty
two Hammo and a magazine for a SKS. Also in April,
there was a phone jammer purchased by Angela. A phone
jammer jams signals for phones, So say you're gonna go
murder eight people and you don't want them to be
(32:16):
able to call for help. Then you have a phone
jammer on your person and it jams the signals. But
that was purchased, and a bug detector was purchased by Angela.
The financial records also just confirm what we already knew,
which was they function as one unit and pretty much
everything they do financially is no exception. Angela said that
(32:40):
Billy came to her with this idea that they discussed
it outside in this area of you know, like carport
type area, and I'm trying to like envision where exactly
that would be. But they were outside the home on
Peterson Road, and Billy came up with us and then
she said, you know that they include did the boys.
(33:01):
But she said she didn't go along. She did order things.
She ordered what Billy told her to order. She said,
Jake told her to go buy the Walmart shoes, and
so she did. And you know, it was just kind
of like she was the shopper almost. That is what
it sounds like. Billy took care, I guess of everything else,
and the boys took care of everything else. So you know,
(33:23):
it sounds like she was kind of throwing it all
on Billy. Let's stop here for another break. According to
Angela's testimony, Billy said they needed a vehicle for the murders.
(33:45):
Angela told George to get five thousand dollars out of
their safe and use that to purchase the truck that
would be used the night of the murders. Here's Stephanie.
She was definitely saying it as though this was Billy
and Jake and Origes plan. And yes, she was kind
of going through the paces to stick to their story.
(34:07):
And yes she went and she bought the stuff, and
the shoes were something that she actually purchased. Quite obviously.
They have her on camera doing it, so on the
one hand, she's sort of just a bystander to it,
and to this day claims she doesn't know the nightly details.
(34:27):
Angela testifies that prior to the murders, Billy came over
one night and was telling everyone, quote, come on, come on,
but apparently nobody listened, and so Billy got mad and left.
Nobody was moving fast enough, but the next day Billy
Wagner came back. He told them to get ready. Prosecutor
Kanepa asks if Angela Kneu who was going to do
(34:48):
the killings. Angela's response, No, I didn't ask and I
wasn't told about the murder. To this day, she doesn't
know the details of what happened that night because they've
never told her and Billy never told her. All she
knows is what the plan was, that she had to
keep the phones and that at a certain time she
(35:10):
would send out a text as she was supposed to
to kind of place the phones at the house. When Billy, Jake,
and George left for the road and households, Angela claims
she was conflicted. Angela testified about the actual day of
the murders, saying she saw Jake, George, and Billy Wagner
leave that evening. She said she was overwhelmed with emotion
(35:32):
after they left, fearing they might not come back or
even what might happen. Angel also testified she thought about
racing after them to stop them, but realized it was
too late. Jeff and Angeanette Levy. This is according to her,
She stayed home that night. It was just really interesting
to me because she did her part. And then she
said she had taken an ivy profen so she felt
(35:53):
and then she fell asleep, So you know, she fell
asleep as they went on this horrific mission to kill people,
even though she said she felt bad about it and thought, oh,
I wonder if I could stop it. But you know, oh,
but I had the kids here, so she didn't take
any steps to stop it. Do you buy that at all?
(36:14):
I mean, I think she might have had some misgivings,
but no, I find it hard to believe that. Your
excuse is, oh, well, I'm home with the kids, so
I can't stop them from going and killing eight people
or even one person. I mean, come on, if she
wanted to stop it, she could have stopped it. As
news coverage shows, the horrific events of the night unfolded
(36:37):
as the Wagoners had planned. The night of the homicide,
she said, the three Wagner men left the house together,
returned together the next morning. She did not know who
did the shooting, did not want the details. That night,
eight members of the Rodent, Manly, and Gilly families were murdered.
Angela testifies that the next day she heard about the
(36:59):
murders on the news. Yes, George Wagner's mom did say
today that while she knew what was going to happen
six years ago. The homicide still shocked her. She remembers
asking her husband Billy why so many victims? His response quote,
because they were there. During cross examination of Angela Wagner,
an attorney for her son George, keat on two themes,
Angela's lies and her paranoia. The defense team's goal is
(37:22):
to cast blame for the twenty sixteen Pike County massacre
on Angela, her husband Billy, and George's brother Jake, not
the man on trial for murder. We've heard so much
about her, you know, We've talked about her for years,
and she's been kind of like the center of all
of this, and this is the culmination of all that.
I mean, what's your take on hearing it straight from
her mouth finally? Well, I mean it's shocking to hear
(37:44):
it really is. More on that next time. For more
information on the case and relevant photos, follow us on
Instagram at Kati Underscore Studios. The Pikeon Maskers produced by
Stephanie Lydecker, Jeff Shane, Chris Cacaro, Andrew Arnou, Gabriel Castillo,
(38:05):
and me Courtney Armstrong. Editing and sound designed by Jeff Toi.
Music by Jared Aston. The Pike Didmasacar is a production
of iHeart Radio and Katie Studios. For more podcasts from
My Heart Radio, visit the iHeart Radio app, Apple Podcasts,
or wherever you listen to your favorite shows. Please welcome
(38:28):
Markite County Dogwood Festival. Queen Lord, I just thank you
for bringing us all together as a community. Okay, hodd
all over the house? Who could have killed eight family
members in one nine? I lost my best friends and
(38:50):
I will never be the same because of that day.
Four crime scenes, no DNA, no witnesses. The killer left
those children laying in their mother's blood. The word that
comes to mind is overkilled. Who was the master mind,
I'm telling you is a framer. I'm not fitting in prison.
(39:12):
One thing I learned. The smaller the town, the bigger
the sacreds. Be sure to watch our upcoming documentary, The
Pike County Murders of Family Massacre, premiering on NBC Universal's
Oxygen Network and also streaming on Peacock this Thanksgiving Day
weekend November twenty fourth and November twenty fifth. Please check
(39:35):
your local listings and our hearts are with the Rodents
and the Gilly families,
After spending four days listening to Jake Wagner testify against
his older brother George, jurors today heard from both boys mother,
Angela Wagner. She speaks of her husband and her sons
in a very loving manner. She's really presenting today as
a sweet, loving mother. She's there to save her life,
(00:28):
but also the lives of her family. Lord knows how
many people they had actually stolen from. It sounds like
the Old West because they've even gotten involved in poaching
and cattle rustling. You can have sympathy for somebody, but
when you take part in killing eight people, sorry, that
all goes out the window. This is the piped and
(00:54):
Massacre Return to Pike County season four, episode nineteen and
takes the stand. I'm Courtney Armstrong, a television producer at
Kat's Studios with Stephanie Leidecker and Jeff Shane. It's important
to note that George Wagner the fourth has pleaded not
guilty and maintained he did not kill anyone. His father,
(01:15):
Billy Wagner, whose trial is upcoming, has also pleaded not
guilty to all charges. We've heard testimony from Jake Wagner
about his role in the crimes against the Rodin, Manly
and Gilly families. Today we're hearing from another pivotal witness
for the prosecution and accused Giller comes face to face
with his mother for the first time since both were
(01:36):
arrested four years ago. Yours today heard from both boys mother,
Angela Wagner, looking somewhat frail and wearing a drab jail uniform.
The fifty two year old Wagner took the stand around
ten fifteen this morning. Wearing a drab black and white
jail uniform. Angela Wagner walks into the courtroom. James Pilcher,
longtime investigative reporter from Cincinnati now with Local twelve, was
(01:59):
there when Angela arrived at court, so one thing that
her appearance was much different than in the past. Her
hair was much longer. One of the other interesting details
is that she was shackled much like her son was,
but the change were much lighter, so they made a
much different noise on the floor as she walked by.
It was more like a clink clink, clink, rather than
(02:20):
clank clank clank. Here Stephanie, who was also in the
courtroom during Angela Wagner's testimony. You can literally hear her
with her shackles coming down the hallway, which was such
an eerie sound. James Pilcher describes the atmosphere in the
courtroom that day. The courtroom, you could have heard a
pin drop, Jake, It wasn't like that. But when we're
(02:40):
waiting for Angela, for the mother of the suspect who's
on trial, it was deathly quiet because everybody has always
thought that she was the mastermind behind all of this,
and I think that was one thing that they were
anticipating coming out. And there was also the tension of
knowing a mother and her son were going to see
each other for the first time with her testifying against him.
(03:02):
So there was a lot of tension and very very
quiet in that courtroom when we're waiting for her to
take the stand. When she sat down, she didn't even
look at George, and George pretty much looked like he
had his eyes down the entire time. Angela Wagner chose
to opt out of having her testimony recorded. Therefore, the
only people who heard her testimony were the jury, the judge,
(03:24):
the respective attorneys, and the family and media that were
present in the courtroom. Here's Jeff speaking with Annette Levy,
investigative reporter and host for Law and Crime. They opted
out because they could. I thought it was completely ridiculous.
You're a cooperating witness, you're convicted. You should be forced
(03:44):
to get up there and face the music on camera,
be recorded. All of these Roaden family members got up
there and bared their souls and were recorded, And you know,
why shouldn't he and Angela have to do the same.
Does the jury know who opts in and opts out? No?
I don't believe so, because the bailiff would go over
(04:06):
and tell the photographer or tell members of the media
who opted and who opted out. Here's forensic medical examiner
Joseph Scott Morgan. It's so very easy to forget the Rodents,
and I guess on a spiritual level, since this all
kind of kicked off, I've always imagined every single member
(04:27):
of that family in a spiritual form, sitting on the
front row watching seeing if they're going to receive any
level of justice, and this is part of that justice.
These people, these poor poor victims, they deserve to have
each individual story told when it comes to their deaths.
(04:49):
This is a mass murder. You know their lives ended
it at the end of the muzzle of the weapon
and cut short every single one of them, every singer.
They still be here with today. I have no doubt,
you know, and they deserve their due. Prosecutor Angiekineppa begins
her opening remarks for the day. We said that if
anyone else came forward and could tell us something that
(05:14):
was consistent with what we had just heard, that would
do two things for us, and it would just be
stronger corroborating evidence that another member of the Wagner family
was giving us the same information without knowing exactly what
Jake had said, right, And that person that came forward
was Angela Wagner. Kneppa comes right out of the gate
(05:37):
with the question everyone has been wondering about. One thing
that really stuck out to me was they approached her
much differently than they did Jake. At the very very beginning,
at the very opening of her testimony, they ask a
point blank, are you guilty of taking part in these murders? Yes?
Did you help plan them? Yes? Did you help prepare
(05:59):
for it? Yes? Did you aid in a bet? Yes?
Who else took part? My husband, Billy, my son is George,
and Jacob, So suffice it to say, all four of
you were involved in these homicides that night. Yes, she
was at point blank, are you guilty of aggravated murder?
She said, yes, we all are. That was a really
(06:23):
key moment. Here's Mike Allen, attorney and legal analyst who's
been following the case from the beginning. I think the
fact that Angie Kneppa asked the question are you guilty
and the answer from Angela was yes, That's a big
part of her testimony, and I think just getting that
out upfront lets the jury know that, you know, she's
(06:47):
not messing around here. She's admitting to her involvement in it.
Not necessarily fire on any weapons, but she was in
it up to her neck and that was established early
on in her testimony. Special Prosecute Kneppa asked Angela Wagner
about her childhood here again Stephanie. Angela said, this is
(07:07):
the first time I had heard this. She has sort
of this messy relationship with her own father because she
was feuding with him a bit about having sex. Then
she goes to the military and is sexually assaulted, leaves
there and gets married very quickly with Billy and she
(07:28):
speaks of frankly Billy and her grandbabies and her sons
in a very loving manner. You know, she's really presenting
today as a sweet, loving mother. On the stand, Angela
isn't quite what we expected. She's soft spoken and as
a bit of a baby talker, and instantly I was
(07:51):
expecting a much bigger presence. Here's Jeff and Angeinette. What
do you make of that? Do you think that's an
act or do you think that's she's kind of changed
in jail. I think she was probably a nervous bee,
doesn't want to be there. She may be feeling badly
about throwing her son under the bus, implicating him in
these homicides. But at the same time, I think that
(08:14):
she's a master manipulator. I think she's good at playing
a role when she has to. So you don't really
buy it. I mean, I don't buy the meat mild
mannered part of it. I think maybe in that instance
that was her, but she's just quiet and soft spoken. Obviously,
that's not what we've heard from Angela Wagner on the wiretaps,
(08:36):
or what we heard about Angela Wagner from Tabitha's testimony.
Or Elizabeth Armer's testimony. As we've talked about incessantly, she's
been this monster in our minds and certainly in mind.
This is the big bad wolf, right this is her
day in court, and this is the monster we've been
talking about, and we know that is true. She's admitted it.
(08:59):
We've heard helpless stories about it. I'm told it's coming.
We're going to see the crack in her very soon.
But right now, it's kind of like watching a movie
in a way. It's almost as though, what's that movie?
Primal Fear? And Edward Norton has sort of an interesting dialect,
and he has mannerisms that are very specific, and then
(09:21):
at the very end, when he's proven to be innocent,
then you find out that he's Ah, I was lying
the whole time, and he doesn't have an accent. He
was just pretending to be this completely different person. And
it feels like she's that right now. And I have
to be honest with you, it's very believable. You know,
we've been tracking this case so closely, and then you
(09:42):
look at jurors and you have to hope they're not
buying it. Here again, James Filcher, the juxtaposition between what
you heard on tape and what she presented in person
was much much different, much more low key, much calmer,
much more me As for her demeanor, again, she's there
(10:06):
to save her life but also the lives of her
family as part of her plea deal, So she obviously
is going to be on her best behavior. So I
think that was part of it. But I also think
part of it she was probably on her meds and
she admitted that. During cross examination, Prosecutor Kaneppa asked Angela
(10:27):
Wagner about when Jake and George were children. Wagner testifies
that she didn't think George and Jake were getting the
one on one attention they needed at public school, so
she and Billy decided to homeschool them, and they began
by interrogating her about how she raised Jake and George,
explaining that she homeschooled them both until high school while
their father, Billy Wagner, allegedly taught them how to steal
(10:48):
from trucks and trailers. There's obviously a lack of socialization there.
I mean, these kids were raised and when I say kids,
Jake and George and this kind of upbringing where they
were homeschooled and didn't really have a lot of exposure
to the outside world. Of course, they knew people outside
(11:09):
of their family, but not many. They didn't really have
a lot of friends outside of you know, people who
worked at the Flying w and things like that. So
they didn't have a quote unquote normal childhood. And there's
questions about the curriculum. They were taught that they needed
to be deferential and polite, not to act up things
(11:30):
like that, but it was almost in a way that
they were taught these things so that they could get
away with crimes and not necessarily so they could be
good human beings. We heard about some of this education
in Jake's testimony. Angela Wagner's testimony expands it on the
family dynamic. She speaks about how the family would set
fires to their properties and file insurance claims. That was
(11:55):
one thing that the prosecution did too, and they did
it with Jake, but they did it more with Angela,
and that is they clearly laid out how Angela was
involved and planned several criminal acts leading up to all
of this, including the arsons. They rebuilt the house again
up there on Frederica's property and Fredrikas said, well, I'm
(12:19):
going to sell the property and you're not going to
really be compensated for the house. And at that point
Angela said, I don't want anybody to live in this
dreamhouse that we built with our own bare hands. So
they burned it down for the insurance money, and they
walked through all of that. It's interesting because the way
Kanneppa did this was chronological, and Angela's towards the end
of this trial, and so it's almost like she's confirming
(12:40):
all the things that we've heard. They talked about the insurance,
the fires, all of these pieces that we've heard about.
Angela is like, yes, that happened, Yes, that happened, Yes,
that happened. What do you make of that? I think
miss Caneppa was doing that on purpose to show that
the testimony, Angela's testimony god with the fish call evidence
(13:00):
in the case. And I think it was a good
strategy because it did line up in her testimony, I
mean pretty solidly. So I think that was a good strategy.
And again, as I said, I think Angela came off
as pretty credible. The defense lean did on these planned
arsons during cross examination. Here's James Pilcher, followed by Stephanie.
(13:23):
The defense started its cross examination by leaning into Angela's
previous criminal acts, including arsons for insurance money, shoplifting, and
helping steal diesel fuel and truckloads of goods. I think
it is going to prove to be very relevant. They're
painting a picture of her, although she was very sweet
and cute all day. At the very end cross examination happened,
(13:44):
and that was a jaw dropper because George's defense attorney
puts on a pretty good display and kind of talked
us through Angela's early years and then they start getting
into where she lives and how they ended up at
the house in the end that she lived, which was Pugs.
What he was painting the picture for was that, Yeah,
(14:04):
she has in fact burned down by arson. Three houses.
She had to admit to that today in the court
of law. He was like, this house was very expensive.
How did you get the money for this house? Oh? Wait,
get into the house before this house. What happened to
that house? Oh, it burnt down, But how did you
get the money for that house? Oh? The house before that,
(14:27):
Oh that one burned down. So three houses and I
think a garage all burnt down. You got insurance money
for all of them. On cross examination, the defense asks
Angela Wagner if Jake and George were involved in the arsons.
Angela's response, yes, but who gives a damn? By the way,
(14:49):
when all these arsens were happening, George was one time
he was sixteen, one time George was fifteen. Like George
was in the home during these shenanigans. Angela also testified
about other crimes she's committed with Billy in front of
the boys, including pill running. Prosecutor Canepa asks Angela Wagner
if she's ever stolen fuel, before Angela responds yes, she
(15:13):
was the lookout. Angela also testified that Billy taught the
boys how to safe in fuel. I think that they
see themselves as engaging in justifiable outlawry if you will
that you know the government is all bad. We're really
representative of the working people you know here in this community.
(15:35):
You know it's cliche, but you know our family has
been here for generations. We know we don't know what
the real story is here. We know that you're not
going to get ahead in this world and this hardscrave
of life that we're leading. You're not going to get
ahead in this world unless you you steal, going to
some hard working families home or the farm and robbing
(15:55):
them or burglarizing and taking what is not that and
being able to justify that. It's you know, it's a
real Lord of the Flies moment and its survival of
the fittest. And they had done that. You know, Lord
knows how many people they had actually stolen from in
that community. You know, you you think about things just uh,
(16:16):
you know, two by fours and wood paneling and you know,
going out to job sites and essentially robbing hard working
people of the things that they need to get by on.
It sounds like the Old West because they've even gotten
involved in poaching and cattle rustling of all things, you know,
student livestock. So that's an operation. That's that's not a
(16:37):
one man operation, is it. That's that's that's a lot
of work. It's not like little old Jake is just
running around doing all of this stuff with his crazy father.
You've got to have multiple hands on the wheel here.
And I think that you know, this goes to George
and this this steevery this, you know, nefarious behaviors it's
(16:58):
like a virus. I think that just it spreads like
wildfire through a family because you know, it's the children
bear witnessed it when they're growing up in the home,
and they know that this is just part of life,
that they're involved in it, and you know what, it
was probably normal for them to go and take food
out of people's mouths. There's a question of whether this
(17:18):
kind of testimony about Jake and George's upbringing is making
them sympathetic to the jury here again Joseph Morgan, followed
by Antinette Levy. For George a point in his life
that he was at he was still going to be
bullied by Billy and potentially by Angela as well. I
think Angela is probably chief among centers here. He just
couldn't get out of his own way. And so I
(17:41):
guess if the jury can take away some bit of
sympathy for George as he's you know, he's on trial
there in the courthouse, I guess that's that's probably where
it would come from. There may have been a little
bit of sympathy, but I don't think there was a
whole lot. I mean, you can have sympathy for some
but when you take part in killing eight people. Sorry,
(18:04):
that all goes out the window. It might be an explanation,
but it doesn't excuse it. We're going to take a break.
We'll be back in a moment. The prosecution asks Angela
(18:24):
about her relationship with her daughter in laws. We've heard
in previous testimony how George's ex wife, Tabitha was essentially
cut off from her child by the Wagner family. We've
also heard about how Angela claimed to love Hannah May
Roden like a daughter, but there was friction over custody
of the child she shared with Jake. We've spoken before
about how Angela wanted to spy on Hannah Roden's Facebook activity.
(18:48):
Prosecutor Kanepa asked how she got access to her passwords
to monitor Facebook. According to Angela, she asked Jake and
he gave it to her. Joseph Scott Morgan, she controlled everything. Now,
you controlled everything, even now to the relationships that you
know that she had, that her sons had, you know,
(19:08):
outside the home, you know, with with these women that
came into their lives, and when you're in a position
of power where you can control people to the point
where their romantic interest is trumped by your ability to
manipulate them where you would be willing to, you know,
(19:28):
at her direction, compel your lovers to give over passwords
and access. Just that one point alone is really eye catching.
Angela used this access to social media to share screenshots
about custody of her granddaughter with the family. She was
also trying to get information on Tabitha, George Wagner's ex wife.
(19:50):
This is not what she said, but she's intimating that.
She says, protecting her boys away from these bad girls. Essentially,
he's a reminder of what Angela Wagner said when she
was recorded by the b CI at the Canadian border.
So your relationship with Hannah was good. Now I thought
she was a school wreck, but I thought she was
(20:11):
a school rap because she really was. I mean, no offense,
but she was her dad that ever get away with
every name and I'll want She would give me looks,
and she was narrow, and she would tell Jacob was
being mean, and you know, but that's typical teenager. They
are all typical. Sometimes mother in laws and yep, time
(20:32):
and time again, Wagner would bring it back to how
her family was everything to her and informed everything she
did but the prosecution brings up an incident with Tabitha
that we haven't heard about before. Here's Jeff speaking with
Long Crimes Anjeannette Levy. She also said some weird things
about Tabby. Angie Kineppa asked her about Tabby and said,
(20:55):
you know, did Tabby ever try to poison you or
anything like that. She's like, yes, and she was just
adamant about it, just like Jake was adamant like about
certain things. She said. She described how Tabby one time
put dog hair in her coffee, and she and Jake
liked a particular type of vanilla coffee, and she said
(21:16):
she had her coffee cup one time and Tabby had
made this cup for her and she looked at it
and she, you know, she's she said, Jake, is there
there's dog hair in this coffee. And she was serious
as could be, and she said Tabby was laughing about it.
And she described another time where Tabby had made some
kool aid for George that he liked and he got
really sick. So she has these like things that she
(21:40):
kind of comes up with. The dog hair in the
coffee thing was just astounding to me. She truly believed
that I don't know if it actually happened. I can't
imagine somebody putting dog hair in somebody's coffee. Just seems
like such a strange thing. But if they believe it,
it's gospel. This belief in the untrue and the ability
to convince her family of it, is one of Angela's strengths.
(22:04):
According to forensic examiner Joseph Morgan, you know, you think
about Billy, and you know Billy's they're teaching young Jake
how to hot wire car and sealing it. Well, she's
doing the same thing. It's justifiable for you to betray
somebody that you claim to love if it's for the
greater good of the family and so. And it's amazing
(22:25):
how you can psychologically leverage somebody with information like that,
isn't it? Where you can be the driver that you
have this in dwelling in inertia, you know that carries
over to the family, push them in the direction which
you so desired. It was one belief in particular that
Angela held that helped set in motion the events that
(22:45):
led to the murder of the Rodent, Manly and Gilly families.
Angela testified she became worried her granddaughter was being abused
while staying with the Rodent family. She said, quote, I
realized something was happening, some kind of abuse was going
on that needed to be stopped. Angela Wager was asked
if she loved Handah. She said, yes, I did at
(23:07):
one point, but issues made me feel like was being
sexually abused. Angela said she became concerned over signs of
abuse and claims that her grandchild would often appear reluctant
to leave and return to Hannah since they had shared custody.
James Pilcher here's her direct quote. She said, I realized
something was happening, some kind of abuse was going on
(23:27):
that needed to be stopped, and she said she didn't
trust child services or the law or law enforcement that
needed did her husband, Billy. We've already established that Billy
was a doomsday er. Billy hated police, Billy paid his
kids to spot police. Billy taught his kids how to
be thieves. So this all set into it. Although Angela
(23:51):
didn't want to kill him, it was some of the
ways she would answer. She was like, well, why did
you do this? Well, we were protecting her, and she
almost appeared like she was in a frog on the stand.
But then when it got to that, it was almost
like she was razor white hot when she would talk
about protecting that little girl. And then they talked about
Angela's past in the Air Force and all of this
(24:14):
surrounding ever present fear of sexual abuse, and it became
almost a paranoia and you could see it in display
clearly when she started talking about that. So the lead
reasoning has been that she felt as though it was
being sexually molested or was going to be sexually molested,
(24:38):
not that there's ever been proof of that, but that
was the reasoning, and that at some point she noticed
that Frankie Roden kissed on the lips saying goodbye, and
that felt a little strange. In fact, she actually says
that told her mother, Rita Nukom, who at the time
(24:58):
was living next door to her with her grandmother, that
she was being touched inappropriately, and then Rita Neukom repeated
that to Angela, and then Angela repeated it to Jake
and the entire family, George and Billy. At that point
when Jake found out about it, rather than talking about
(25:18):
it with the Rodents or anything, they just started putting
this plan together to protect her, and she had to
protect the babies. But apparently Angela Wagner's assertions of abuse
were not based in reality. This fear that the little
girl would be molested. The prosecution basically says that was
something they kind of whipped up in their heads to
(25:40):
justify what they wanted to do. They are entitled and
feel that this children should be with them and no
one else. There is no doubt that this family wanted
those kids to be one hundred percent Wagoner, and that's
what this is all about. They had convinced themselves there
may have been some abuse, but that was basically window
dressing for their their belief that these kids should belong
(26:02):
to them, regardless of any actual evidence of abuse. The
idea had been planted in the minds of the Wagner family,
and Angela stoked the fire. I think that she's probably
arguably the smartest one in the crew, and the reason
I think that that's quite ominous. I think she knew
what buttons to press with all three of these men
(26:24):
in her life. You know, she's probably known how to
control them their entire lives, or at least that portion
of Billy's life that he was with her. She knew,
you know, where to press, how far she could go
to attain her goals, if you will, in any of
this and anything that she set her mind to doing.
And you know, she wanted to be be the head hancho,
(26:47):
you know, in the family, and she was. She told
Drors she suspected the Rodents were abusing, did not take
her to the doctor. Said we didn't believe in the
justice system, didn't believe in children's services, she said. By
January twenty sixteen, her husband started coming up with the
plan they had to be murdered. She said. She went
to her husband, Billy, with her concerns, saying she wanted
(27:08):
to turn in Chris Rodent Senior for growing marijuana. Billy
nixed that, coming up with an alternate plan. She said, quote.
The plan was they needed to be murdered. Later, she said,
her husband told the entire family quote, this was going
to change everything. According to Angelo Agnes's testimony, Billy came
up with the plan for murder. Billy ultimately decided that
(27:32):
the only way was to kill Hannah, and that they
couldn't stop short of killing Hannah Rodin, the mother of
but they would have to kill Chris Rodin Senior because
he ultimately exercise control over Hannah Rodin and the Roden family,
and that other witnesses, other members of the Roden family
would have to be killed for it to be successful.
(27:52):
That's essentially what Angela testified, and that really was Billy
who was the driver here. Angela wanted to turn Chris
Senior in for his marijuana and then that would get
the family in trouble, and therefore maybe Jake would get
more visitation rights or more control over the fate of
(28:14):
his daughter and her granddaughter. Well, of course that cut
too close for home for Billy, because Billy had been
in business with Chris. Chris Senior had tried to teach
Billy how to grow marijuana. And then so she says,
Billy came up with this alternate plan. Here's the quote quote.
The plan was they needed to be murdered. Yeah, and
then it progressed from there that, Okay, we're gonna start
(28:37):
talking about how we're gonna do it. And she said
that they would actually have conversations with the water running
or outside in the car port, with the car running,
without the TVs on, with no phones around, because they're
so paranoid of being overheard. During one of these meetings
with George and Jake Wagner in the kitchen, Angela asked
(28:58):
her sons if they wanted to go through with them.
According to Angela, they said yes. Joseph Morgan says that
the accusation of molestation would get the rest of the
Wagner family to do what Angela wanted. She was the
person that had the thirty thousand foot view of the
entire family. She saw where all the weaknesses were, she
(29:18):
saw where the strengths were, and she knew what the
goal was in order to win, you know. And I
think that her endgame has always been to have, you know,
total control over the Wagner family. And you know, she
was going to be She's a Rutter own ship. She's
she's the master of the ship as well, and all
of these people are there to do her bidding. And
(29:38):
you know, Billy may have had this thought at a
real primal level. I think that he needed to take
care of the roads. But it was, in my opinion,
at least it was an Angela that was overlording all
of this all the way along. In episode four thirteen,
we saw evidence of how Angela manipulated Billy through text messages.
I am moving on. You are more than one to
(30:00):
come bring babies and come on, Angela, well, they are
not our babies. And I would never do that to
George and Jake. I would have killed someone if they
would have even mentioned going away with my babies. And
if you really missed me, you would do anything or
go through anything for me. Billy. It's a fine mess, Angela. Well,
maybe it is worth you helping me work it out, Billy.
(30:23):
I got a plan if you just take one damn
minute and listen, Angela. Okay, tell me, Billy when I
see you. This is the last time I am going
to try. If the three of you don't take time
to listen to me, then oh well, Angela, okay. Joseph Morgan,
isn't it amazing I find you know? And Angela is
certainly a fine example of this. It's very easy for
(30:46):
her to rationalize justify her actions. She doesn't necessarily do
in court, but the lead up to it, when she's
the driver behind all this, is that she's looking out
for the greater good of the family. You know, it's
the winomen The women are all women of ill repute.
The kids that she does not have in her immediate control,
(31:08):
run the risk of being sexually molested, that she needs
to be one to provide watchcare, and the family has
to watch over them at all time. The rest of
the world is evil, We're the ones that are right.
And isn't that interesting how her worldview kind of parallels
that of Billy's. While Angela testified it wasn't her idea
(31:28):
to murder the rudents, she did admit to helping plan
the crimes. Now. While on the stand, Angela Wagner admitted
to him staying at home on the night of the murders,
but said she helped her sons and husband prepare for them.
Here's Prosecutor Angie Kinneppa laying out what Angela Wagner bought
to prepare for the murders. She admits to buying the
shoes for her sons. We show Jake at least his
(31:54):
awards card being used to buy seven sixty nine thirty
two Hammo and a magazine for a SKS. Also in April,
there was a phone jammer purchased by Angela. A phone
jammer jams signals for phones, So say you're gonna go
murder eight people and you don't want them to be
(32:16):
able to call for help. Then you have a phone
jammer on your person and it jams the signals. But
that was purchased, and a bug detector was purchased by Angela.
The financial records also just confirm what we already knew,
which was they function as one unit and pretty much
everything they do financially is no exception. Angela said that
(32:40):
Billy came to her with this idea that they discussed
it outside in this area of you know, like carport
type area, and I'm trying to like envision where exactly
that would be. But they were outside the home on
Peterson Road, and Billy came up with us and then
she said, you know that they include did the boys.
(33:01):
But she said she didn't go along. She did order things.
She ordered what Billy told her to order. She said,
Jake told her to go buy the Walmart shoes, and
so she did. And you know, it was just kind
of like she was the shopper almost. That is what
it sounds like. Billy took care, I guess of everything else,
and the boys took care of everything else. So you know,
(33:23):
it sounds like she was kind of throwing it all
on Billy. Let's stop here for another break. According to
Angela's testimony, Billy said they needed a vehicle for the murders.
(33:45):
Angela told George to get five thousand dollars out of
their safe and use that to purchase the truck that
would be used the night of the murders. Here's Stephanie.
She was definitely saying it as though this was Billy
and Jake and Origes plan. And yes, she was kind
of going through the paces to stick to their story.
(34:07):
And yes she went and she bought the stuff, and
the shoes were something that she actually purchased. Quite obviously.
They have her on camera doing it, so on the
one hand, she's sort of just a bystander to it,
and to this day claims she doesn't know the nightly details.
(34:27):
Angela testifies that prior to the murders, Billy came over
one night and was telling everyone, quote, come on, come on,
but apparently nobody listened, and so Billy got mad and left.
Nobody was moving fast enough, but the next day Billy
Wagner came back. He told them to get ready. Prosecutor
Kanepa asks if Angela Kneu who was going to do
(34:48):
the killings. Angela's response, No, I didn't ask and I
wasn't told about the murder. To this day, she doesn't
know the details of what happened that night because they've
never told her and Billy never told her. All she
knows is what the plan was, that she had to
keep the phones and that at a certain time she
(35:10):
would send out a text as she was supposed to
to kind of place the phones at the house. When Billy, Jake,
and George left for the road and households, Angela claims
she was conflicted. Angela testified about the actual day of
the murders, saying she saw Jake, George, and Billy Wagner
leave that evening. She said she was overwhelmed with emotion
(35:32):
after they left, fearing they might not come back or
even what might happen. Angel also testified she thought about
racing after them to stop them, but realized it was
too late. Jeff and Angeanette Levy. This is according to her,
She stayed home that night. It was just really interesting
to me because she did her part. And then she
said she had taken an ivy profen so she felt
(35:53):
and then she fell asleep, So you know, she fell
asleep as they went on this horrific mission to kill people,
even though she said she felt bad about it and thought, oh,
I wonder if I could stop it. But you know, oh,
but I had the kids here, so she didn't take
any steps to stop it. Do you buy that at all?
(36:14):
I mean, I think she might have had some misgivings,
but no, I find it hard to believe that. Your
excuse is, oh, well, I'm home with the kids, so
I can't stop them from going and killing eight people
or even one person. I mean, come on, if she
wanted to stop it, she could have stopped it. As
news coverage shows, the horrific events of the night unfolded
(36:37):
as the Wagoners had planned. The night of the homicide,
she said, the three Wagner men left the house together,
returned together the next morning. She did not know who
did the shooting, did not want the details. That night,
eight members of the Rodent, Manly, and Gilly families were murdered.
Angela testifies that the next day she heard about the
(36:59):
murders on the news. Yes, George Wagner's mom did say
today that while she knew what was going to happen
six years ago. The homicide still shocked her. She remembers
asking her husband Billy why so many victims? His response quote,
because they were there. During cross examination of Angela Wagner,
an attorney for her son George, keat on two themes,
Angela's lies and her paranoia. The defense team's goal is
(37:22):
to cast blame for the twenty sixteen Pike County massacre
on Angela, her husband Billy, and George's brother Jake, not
the man on trial for murder. We've heard so much
about her, you know, We've talked about her for years,
and she's been kind of like the center of all
of this, and this is the culmination of all that.
I mean, what's your take on hearing it straight from
her mouth finally? Well, I mean it's shocking to hear
(37:44):
it really is. More on that next time. For more
information on the case and relevant photos, follow us on
Instagram at Kati Underscore Studios. The Pikeon Maskers produced by
Stephanie Lydecker, Jeff Shane, Chris Cacaro, Andrew Arnou, Gabriel Castillo,
(38:05):
and me Courtney Armstrong. Editing and sound designed by Jeff Toi.
Music by Jared Aston. The Pike Didmasacar is a production
of iHeart Radio and Katie Studios. For more podcasts from
My Heart Radio, visit the iHeart Radio app, Apple Podcasts,
or wherever you listen to your favorite shows. Please welcome
(38:28):
Markite County Dogwood Festival. Queen Lord, I just thank you
for bringing us all together as a community. Okay, hodd
all over the house? Who could have killed eight family
members in one nine? I lost my best friends and
(38:50):
I will never be the same because of that day.
Four crime scenes, no DNA, no witnesses. The killer left
those children laying in their mother's blood. The word that
comes to mind is overkilled. Who was the master mind,
I'm telling you is a framer. I'm not fitting in prison.
(39:12):
One thing I learned. The smaller the town, the bigger
the sacreds. Be sure to watch our upcoming documentary, The
Pike County Murders of Family Massacre, premiering on NBC Universal's
Oxygen Network and also streaming on Peacock this Thanksgiving Day
weekend November twenty fourth and November twenty fifth. Please check
(39:35):
your local listings and our hearts are with the Rodents
and the Gilly families,
Hosts And Creators
Stephanie Lydecker
Courtney Armstrong
Jeff Shane
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