March 15, 2023 • 32 mins
As Angela Wagner’s testimony continues, she drops more bombshells on the stand that give us a glimpse at the night in question and its fallout.
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Episode Transcript
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Speaker 1 (00:03):
When asked about being on the witness stand against her son, Wagner,
with tears in her eyes, said, this is not easy
for me. It rips my heart out. Apparently Georgie or
Jake quit are having nightmares, and Georgia had become a
different person, and she brought that up to Billy, and
Billy apparently told her, I don't know why George is
having any trouble. He didn't shoot anybody. She asked Billy,
(00:27):
why so many? He told her because they were there.
Billy apparently is a doomsday prepper. Now at the fact
that you've now murdered eight people and you're on the limb,
and Billy was crazy paranoid. I have never in all
the years I've been doing this, has ever seen a
case where mother testified against son. Well, George's got held
(00:52):
pay now because he's the one's on trial. This is
the Piked and Massacre Returned to Pike County season four,
episode twenty, Angela Wagner takes the Stand Part two. I'm
Courtney Armstrong, a television producer at Katie's Studios with Stephanie
(01:14):
Leidegger and Jeff Shane. It's important to note that George
Wagner the fourth has pleaded not guilty and has maintained
his innocence. His father, Billy Wagner, whose trial is upcoming,
has also pleaded not guilty to all charges. In the
previous episode, we left off with Angela Wagner testifying about
the morning after Billy, Jake, and George murdered eight members
(01:36):
of the Rodent, Manly and Gilly families. Angela opted out
of her testimony being recorded. Here's James Pilcher, longtime investigative
journalists from Cincinnati now with Local twelve. Se gets up
the next morning and Billy's there and Jake's outside, and
they turn on the news and it's already on the
(01:56):
news and they've identified possibly seven victims. I'm don kenneth
yet And according to her testimony, she looks at him
and says, why so many? And he turns to her
and he says, because they were there. He had already
told her that the plan was, whoever's there is going
to go. It's collateral damage. They had their primary targets
(02:20):
in mind, but anybody else was going to have to
go too. We heard in Jake Wagner's testimony about how
their kill list expanded beyond Hannah May. Prior to the murders,
Here's Anngeonette Levy, investigative journalist and host for the Long
Crime Network. Billy said, well, now if you kill her,
you're going to have to kill Chris and Frankie because
(02:42):
they will know who you did it and they will
come after you. So it was just this insane like, oh,
well we're going to kill her, we got to kill
everybody else too, And just the way that they came
up with this, just thinking, oh, I have no other
choice but to drive up to Union Hill Road on
an April night and slaughter people. Some of the people
were killed, you know, they were only killed because they
(03:04):
were there. I mean, Hannah, Hazel Gilly was killed only
because she was there. Chris Junior likely killed only because
he was there. Gary Rodin likely killed just because he
was there. Kenneth Roden, according to them, killed because he
was a strong guy, protective of his family and he
would know who did it and he would come an
(03:24):
exact revenge. I mean, so horrifying. According to Angela's testimony,
Billy directed the family to not speak about the murders.
She also confessed to her family agreeing on an alibi
to tell police that they were all at home during
the killings. The whole thing afterwards was Billy telling her
and telling the whole family, you cannot talk about anything
(03:47):
in front of anybody. To make sure nobody finds out
that it's us. They would write stuff down on paper
and walk out to the field in the barn and
burn it. The day after the murders, Billy gave way
the truck the Wagners used to get to the Rodents'
households to his niece. According to Angela, Jake was the
first member of the family to speak with law enforcement.
(04:10):
She was nervous. The prosecutor asks Angela if she thought
they would get away with it. She also said she
didn't think they'd necessarily get away with this, which I
found interesting. In May of twenty seventeen, the Wagners moved
to Alaska. Here's Stephanie who was in the courtroom during
(04:32):
Angela Wagner's testimony. They decide they have to move, so
they go to Alaska, and Billy really didn't want to
move because Frederica was dead against it. She did not
want Billy moving with the family. In fact, she had
a private conversation with Angela saying that she would pay
Angela one thousand dollars a month if Billy didn't move.
(04:56):
They always wanted to go to Alaska. They felt like
the job prospect for better there and they wanted to
get away from all the noise. They loved Alaska, and
they sold their house on Peterson Road. They didn't really
have any other place to go. According to Angela, Billy's
father passed away while they were in Alaska. Billy started
to quote lose it and began drinking a lot, becoming unstable.
(05:19):
Everybody's having a really weird transition at that point. Billy
apparently is off the chains, paranoid and has always felt
like the TVs are listening and kind of rides that
line like so much. So when why two K was
happening in the year two thousand, he had a bread
truck and they filled it with water and supplies and
(05:40):
then they buried it, so that when why two K happened,
that they were prepared for that. So now add the
fact that you're on the lamb and you're trying to
get away with it. Billy was crazy, paranoid, but generally speaking,
would only speak to everybody outside in like a driveway
because he was afraid to be around the televisions. She said, quote,
(06:04):
I told him, I don't think we should have involved
them in the homicides, the planning, or any of it.
We should not have done that. And what she meant
by that was apparently Georgia or Jake whit are having
nightmares and not sleeping well, and Georgia had become a
different person, and she brought that up to Billy, and
(06:25):
Billy apparently told her, I don't know why George is
having any trouble. He didn't shoot anybody. Meanwhile, in Ohio,
law enforcement is gathering evidence that ties the Wagners to
the murders. In May of twenty seventeen, the Wagners are
interrupted at the Canadian border by BCI agents. The agents
(06:47):
asked Angela if she knew of any custody agreements between
Jake and Hannah over custody of their shared daughter. At first,
Angela denied she knew anything. Here's a reminder of the
portion of the recordings taken of Angela Wagner when she's
interviewed by the BCI at the Canadian border. So this
(07:08):
right here is a slow family interview. They are hmm, Okay, yeah,
I don't remember. You don't remember that. The document appears
to be a custody agreement saying that in the event
(07:30):
of Hannah Rodin's death, that custody of her daughter would
go to Jake. It has Hannah's signature on the form.
Detectives tell Angela Wagner they found it at her home.
This is what we're curious about them. And then it
was do you know who that is? Yeah, that's my mom.
Got your mom? So your mom notarized us. Nice, but
you didn't know about it. I don't remember it, okay.
(07:53):
The document appeared to be notarized by Angela's mother during
the same interview with the Canadian Border Law Enforcement also
collected a writing sample from Angela. Suddenly she's realizing that
they're looking into things very quickly. In her testimony, Angela
(08:14):
details what happen next. She basically flubbed that part of it,
and she was like kicking herself that this was like
the thing that she messed up. She's the one that
did the misstep. Here. Now they're like and they could
tell that she was lying and that the custody papers
were going to turn around and be a problem too.
(08:36):
So they get released, they go back and Rid a
newcom person who's signature she just forged, and Billy had
a secret meeting in this laundry room with the dryer
on because they didn't want anybody to be able to
hear them. She basically has to confess to her mom
that she forged her name and that the police are
(08:58):
kind of looking into it, and you know, she felt
very badly about it, and that Rita volunteered to take
the fall for her just to say, no worries, I'll
just say it was my handwriting. So Rita apparently very
willingly stepped into it to take the fall. And then
it wasn't until much later that Angela found out that
(09:19):
Rita in fact had confessed and pled guilty far prior
and was actually working with authorities to get a wire
tap or some sort of recorded confession from one of
the boys, so she's actually working for the BCI. On
the stand, Angela testifies that she forged the custody documents.
(09:42):
Wagner admitted to forging the custody documents using her mother,
Rita's notary public stamp, so that her family would get
Sophia should Jake Orhannah be killed Angela. Adner also testifies
that during the interview at the Canadian border, she knew
law enforcement was on to them. Here's Stephanie, she's doing
this interview you. They've all been separated, and now she realizes,
(10:04):
oh my goodness, they have stuff on me, and she's
not really prepared for some reason, she's ill prepared to
answer the custody stuff. She gives the writing sample. And
then also there was some receipts or something regarding the
shoes that we know she bought on surveillance, and she
didn't have a really good answer for did you buy
these shoes? Her answer was no, I didn't get those shoes.
(10:27):
And then they're like, oh, really, surprise, here you are
on surveillance, and apparently she changes her demeanor, and its
evident in that interview also how she can flip a
switch a little bit. We have a receipt for those
shoes purchased by you. Yeah, so you're them over buying.
(10:51):
I purchased them. I'm telling you. They didn't like them.
They wouldn't wear her, you know, they wanted to pair
her shoes. They always wear them hook to do. I've
also I don't know about that on the stand. Angela
admits to buying the shoes that left footprints at one
of the crime scenes. She told jurors that she bought
shoes at a Walmart for her sons to wear the
(11:12):
night of the murders while George and Jake waited outside
the store. But a key moment was when she said
that she talked about the shoe prints with George and
she said, they're telling us there's two shoe prints there,
and she says George told her one of them was mine.
I tried to smudge it out and Dad said, no,
(11:33):
don't worry about it. We got to go. Come on,
and that's at Chris Rvan Senior's house. She obviously was
caught red handed buying the shoes. She doesn't remember seeing
the boys put the shoes on, but she remembers hanging
them on the bag, and after the night of the murders,
they were gone. In June of twenty seventeen, while the
Wagners were living in Alaska, law enforcement issued a press
(11:57):
release that included photos of the four wagoners and asked
anyone with information about the roadentmasker to contact the police.
At this point in the investigation, Angela is getting progressively
more paranoid. Now on the stand today, Angela Wagner admitted
she's been a liar and a thief, and she talked
about the paranoia she felt as investigators started closing in
and asking her family questions. In the spring of twenty eighteen,
(12:20):
special agent Ryan Scheiderer sent a text to George Wagner
with a photo that allegedly showed Jake Wagner holding the
twenty two cult nine to eleven used in the homicides.
They found that and the picture of the gun in
Jake's hand on the backup of his phone that they
got on the laptop on them on Hannah Border. The
prosecution asked Angela about the photo. Angela testifies that she
(12:43):
didn't recognize the hand at first, but then saw the
thumb and thought that it looked like Jake's. George Wagner,
according to his mom, wanted to confess long before his
younger brother and his mother Angela did so. And then
also big piece of information. Apparently George offered to take
the fall for Angela and for everyone that George gave
(13:07):
the offer that he'll take a blame for everybody, and
she says said, I couldn't do that to him. We're
going to take a break. We'll be back in a moment.
(13:27):
While the Wagners are living in Alaska, Jake meets his
new wife, Elizabeth. When she took the stand, Elizabeth Armor
discussed the alleged abuse, allegations that ultimately turned out to
be baseless. From Angela Wagner's testimony, it did not appear
that she liked Elizabeth, and she didn't feel comfortable ever
really having Elizabeth alone with the granddaughter. Angela did not
(13:52):
like her since she was quote weird, and she didn't
feel comfortable with her changing in front of you. In fact,
she made that kind of a mandate and that basically,
if it wasn't with Angela attached to her leg then
she was with Jake. There's one point in the testimony
where Angela Wagner says that her granddaughter told her other grandmother,
(14:13):
Rita Newcomb, that Elizabeth had touched her. Angela asked the
toddler about it, and she allegedly responded no, no, no,
and took it back. Angela then told Jake, who tried
to speak with his daughter about it and later confronts
it Elizabeth about the same Angela was present during the confrontation.
Jake said that if what his daughter was saying was true,
(14:34):
he'd beat Elizabeth. Here's Stephanie. Here, she is entering this world.
If Angela was home and Jake was at work, Elizabeth
would stay home in her room with the door locked,
but never alone would and then once in a blue
moon she would go for a walk, and Angela didn't
really know where she would go, but we've heard this.
(14:56):
Elizabeth was writing in her journal and would journal things
and then she would go out to the driveway out
front and burn it up, and it was kind of
her way of therapy, as it, Angela explains. So she
would write it down in the form of a letter
to her grandfather, and then she would go out front
and burn it. And Angela after a while was like,
you cannot be burning things in the front driveway. So
(15:20):
she was very troubled by that. So one day Elizabeth
is going out and Angela goes into her room and
starts snoopings through the stuff and finds the letter that
she had written about her in regards to Angela that
she hadn't gotten to burn yet. And she's saying this
so softly, like ugh, it's like a scary movie. It
legitimately is she's just saying something sweet and innocent, like
(15:41):
she was just concerned, because I mean, she can't have
BCI thinking that they're destroying evidence in the front driveway.
So she finds like a one subject loosely finder and
it says no, dear granddaddy, but it seems like a
diary entry from a sixteen year old, you know, and
basically said that there's a lot of fighting in the
(16:03):
house and a lot of yelling in the house, and
it was disparaging about Angela in general, nothing super damning,
but just that it was stressful in there. And when
she saw that, she took a photograph of it, and
she took that photo and sent it to George. So
here they are so paranoid about the BCI, and they
know that there are cameras everywhere, and they assume that
(16:24):
their TVs are bugged and that their cars are bugged,
and that the phones are bugged. Yet Angela took a
photograph of this journal entry and send it via text
to George. And now we're seeing a picture of it
in the big screen at the trial. So she texts
this picture to George and George is very upset about it,
(16:46):
and then she tells Jake about it, and then Jake
is very upset about it. But she also thought that
Elizabeth was a plant. They thought maybe she was a
spy working for the BCI. She even says to Angie Kinneppa,
I don't know, she could have been a plant working
for you, signaling to Angie Caineppa. Angela testified that she
drew up a contract before Jake and Elizabeth got married.
(17:08):
In those roles, it was stipulated that if they were
to break up, Elizabeth would have no connection to the Weekend.
After the wedding, the Wagners and Elizabeth moved back to Ohio.
A few months later, Jake and Elizabeth divorce. On the stand,
Angela speaks about what brought them back to Ohio. She
started getting visibly choked up when she spoke about Pug,
(17:30):
her father, and how he passed away. She wasn't there
when he died, and had she known how sick he was,
he was in such a state that she would have
come back from Alaska sooner to be with him, and
that is in fact why they came back from Alaska.
So they ultimately ended up living at Pug's house because
(17:51):
he since has passed In Ohio, Angela Wagner's paranoia grows.
Here's medical examiner Joseph Scott Morgan. I think that when
individuals attempt to control others, particularly in a criminal enterprise,
where there's a lot of planning that goes into it,
there's a certain level of paranoid behavior that kicks in.
(18:11):
I know that there was one instance where they were
interacting with someone that had shown up in the house
and she thought there was going to be a sniper
up in the woods that as soon as she opened
the door that they were around between her eyes. And
what kind of person thinks like that? So when they're
planning the killings, this mask when they're planning this, I
think that that higher self awareness and awareness of your
(18:31):
surroundings everything goes into these kind of paranoid beliefs. Perhaps.
On November eighteenth, twenty eighteen, Billy, Angela, George, and Jake
were arrested in charge with murdering the Rodent, Manly and
Gilly families. The four of them pleaded not guilty. Angela
testifies that the first time she heard about Jake taking
a plead deal was on the news. Here's Stephanie. She
(18:54):
only heard that Jake cut a deal while in prison,
seeing it on breaking news, and it was her heart
just got ripped open that day. And I wish they
had asked why because it was your heart ripped open
because now you're being caught and your boys just turned
on you. Or is your heart ripped open because now
(19:16):
you're realizing that these murders really happened. Five months after
hearing about Jake's plea deal, Angela changes her plea to guilty.
This is in September of twenty twenty one. On cross examination,
the defense challenges Angela on the terms of her plea deal. Now,
according to prosecutors, this plea deal Angela was given was
a thirty year sentence to be served in full so
(19:38):
long as she admits to her role in the killings
of the Road and family in twenty sixteen. However, the
defense argued that it was only after Jake pled guilty
that she decided to as well, claiming that Angela only
did so to prevent her sons from testifying against her. Now,
Angela argued back against the defense, saying that was only
partly true, and claimed there were multiple reasons for her
coming forward. This is a big jaw dropper. She only
(19:59):
took the plea deal because she did the math and
hoped that she could get out at eighty at the
bare minimum, she could then hug her grandbabies and hug
her sons and husband one last time before she died.
Here again, investigative reporter James Pilcher. To be honest, I
think she was telling them the truth when she testified.
(20:21):
She wanted a chance to see your kids again and
see your grandkids again. That's her whole life, you know.
However twisted this family might have been. That family was
all she had, and so she wants a chance to
be reunited with them, and in her own worldview, this
deal possibly makes that possible. The defense argues that Angela
(20:45):
got the plea deal of the century. The evidence would
be that Jake and Angela have conned the state of
Ohio here as well. They've conned the state of Ohio
into the most tenuous crime, into a thirty year sentence.
He's most deserving of death. He escapes with life. In
order to avoid the death penalty, they must implicate George.
(21:09):
Here's Jeff speaking with attorney and legal analyst Mike Allen,
Is this a sweetheart deal? And did she earn her deal? Oh?
I think she definitely earned her deal. I think her
testimony was credible, and you look at it from the
state's point of view, I mean, I don't think they
gave up much. She's I believe, will be eighty years
old when she's eligible for parole. She may not make
(21:32):
it out other than on a stretcher. It was a
smart deal for the state because they got a lot
of testimony from her that does coincide and jibe with
some of the other testimony some of the physical evidence
in the case too. Remember Angela testified that George wanted
to take the fall for the family months before Jake
(21:53):
pleaded guilty. Here's Stephanie. George tries to take the fall
for all of them. She says, no, she could never
do that. And then really, the only main reason also
that she took the plea agreement for the thirty years
is because she couldn't possibly bear Jake going through the
trauma of having to testify against her. She just wouldn't
put him through that, which sounds great until you realize
(22:16):
you're actually staring at your other son right now. On
the one hand, she's being so kind yeah to Jake,
and she wouldn't put him through it, But she's saying
that at the trial of her other son, who she's
putting through it. The defense brings up a letter that
Angela wrote to her mother in law, Frederica, after she
accepted the plea deal. She wrote a letter to Frederica
from prison, a handwritten letter, and she had to read
(22:39):
it out loud, and she wanted her to know that basically,
everything they're all saying in court is not true. And
they're just saying that because they want to get the
plea agreement. And the reason why that's a big deal
is because again, she just pled to this. So just
by that letter alone, she's saying she's a liar. She's
(23:01):
a liar either way. You lied to your mother in
law from prison saying not to believe anything you said
in court. So why are we believing anything or saying
in court? Why did she write that letter and what
does she really mean by it in terms of she
wasn't really guilty of the things they say she was
guilty of, trying to make her sound like she didn't
really believe in her own plea deal and what she
(23:22):
said she meant by it was, yeah, I pleaded the burglary,
and I pleaded to the gun specs, but I wasn't
really there and I didn't hold a gun. That's what
she said she meant when she wrote to Fredrika. And
here's another key quote, we're nothing like what the media
portrays us, as Nash hits her on this too. Nash
(23:43):
and the Cross says, not anywhere in that letter you
express remorse for taking the lives of eight innocent people,
and you're not getting a fair trial for that. And
she says, to be honest, that's because voters will be
looking for someone to blame. I wanted to make sure
that they got the truth. Voters, she meant curers, of course,
because the voters are yourors. The defense says that Angela
(24:05):
Wagner is lying to satisfy her and of the bargain,
with no regard for her son, George. Angela Wagner testified
on the stand for three days. Where does George Wagner,
the man on trial stand after all of this testimony.
Some of the biggest takeaways from Angela Wagner's testimony was
(24:26):
she says George knew about the plan to murder the Rodents,
and he helped with the cover up them. Well, George
got held pay now because he's won his on trial.
But he's a creature of free will, and he made
these decisions of his own free will. But you know,
trust me, Angela was there in the background. Jake was
a tool in her hands, just like Billy was. And
(24:46):
you know, we're seeing George on trial, and George made
a choice. I think about the influences that Angela exerted
over him, compelled him. She was still his mama, and
at the end of the day, that's more powerful than
a lot of other things. Then the prosecution finished their
questioning by asking Angelo whether she regretted her actions. She
then became visibly emotional in court, saying yes, quote, because
(25:09):
they're my sons. I should have protected them from that situation.
We're going to take a break. We'll be back in
a moment. At the end of Agelist's testimony, the defense
asked her about her relationship with her sons. When Nash
(25:31):
asked her if she favored Jake over his brother, Wagner
told the court, I did not have a favorite son.
I love George just as I do Jake. When asked
about being on the witness stand against her son, Wagner,
with tears in her eyes, said, this is not easy
for me. It rips my heart out. The defense continues
their cross of Angelo here again, James Pilcher, and then
(25:54):
she's asked, this is a tragedy you created, Yes, it is,
Missus Wagner. Do you love your sons? Yes? Do you
believe they love you? I hope so. She's in tears
at this point. How difficult has it been to testify? Extremely?
She's not even looking at him at this point. Do
you still regret having involved your sons? Yes? Obviously those
(26:15):
were emotional questions that she was asked. She answered them,
I think honestly. When she was asked, do you think
George loves you? And she said she hoped so, which
was reasonable and probably an honest answer under the circumstances
for a mother to be testifying against her son. I
don't think she would know whether he still loved her
(26:35):
or not, because that's a hell of a thing. Again,
long crimes Annette Levy, Well, is she sorry for herself
or is she sorry for her son? She had told
Billy she was sorry they involved Jake and George like
they shouldn't have done that. I guess she thought maybe
they should have just done it themselves. I don't know.
She obviously has feelings for them and loves them, but
(26:58):
is that real love when you bring your kids into
a murder plot. Angela barely made eye contact with her son,
George throughout her three days of testimony. I have never,
in all the years I've been doing this, ever seen
a case I don't care if it's a shoplifting case
or an aggravated murder case where mother testified against son.
(27:20):
I'm sure it's happened somewhere in the world before, but
I've never seen it. There was that one story, you know,
that really got my attention. I think he goes back
to the time when George was maybe sixteen, and he
had had it up to his eyeballs to the family,
and he had his car and he's at it south.
I think he made it into Kentucky and he realized
he was gonna run out of gas, and he turned
(27:41):
around headed back. I often think of that sixteen year
old kid and George, you know, I think if he
had to do over again, he would have worked and
worked until he he could have paid for several tanks
and gasoline just to put as much distance between him
and them. I certainly think he would now consider the
position that he's in. You know, he's on trial right
now for life. Here's Jeff and Mike Allen, and what
(28:03):
about if he's found guilty. Can they write to each
other or call each other from prison to prison? I
don't think they can. You still got, obviously Billy's case hang,
and I think they'll kind of keep that separation in
place until all of the cases are over with. But
it would be interesting to see how they communicate and
what they have to say to each other, because for now,
(28:24):
if there's any communication at all, it's gotta be through
the lawyers. It's just so interesting. I'm thinking like this
could be the last time they see each other, not
that they really communicated, but that they have any sort
of interaction for the rest of their lives. In George's defense,
his attorneys argue that even though George was a part
of the family, he kept his distance from these crimes.
(28:47):
George knew his family had done a lot of bad
things in their life, but he had never known them
to ever commit a crime of violence. He couldn't believe it,
he denied it at the end of this testimony. How
did the defense and prosecution do? Is horrible as the
crime was, I do think she came off as credible
and I don't think the defense was able to really
(29:09):
do any damage to her on cross examination. I think
for the prosecution it's a brilliant move. The dirty details
in this case are important, but they're not as important
as the overarching theme. The slight writing of a mystery
novel or a screenplay. You have an overarching theme and
(29:32):
it rises in Jake, and it says an Angela because
she's the big finale. I mean, she truly is. She's
the great, big exclamation point. And I think the really
sad thing about this is that her life's not new
every She's not the one that has her life on
the line here. She's cut a deal, and I think
that she's chief among sinners, but these others are not
(29:54):
going to see the light of day. I thought the
defense made good points and their cross examinations of both
Jake and Angela, But I think that Jake and Angela's testimony,
coupled with the wire taps, do not bode well for George.
Even if you believe that Jake and Angelo, let's say
(30:15):
they implicated George just because they had to in order
to get these plea deals that they wanted the wire taps.
In a lot of respects, he still sounds like he's
in the thick of this and he knows exactly what's
going on. They all live together, and you grew up
committing crimes together. You would think that that would just
(30:35):
be very difficult for the defense to overcome, for them
to come into court and feel confident that they were
going to somehow poken of holes in Jake and Angela's
testimony to make George not guilty beyond a reasonable doubt.
I'm not saying it's not possible, and Angela Wagner said,
we are all guilty. So I think that they've got
(30:58):
a tough mountain to find. They may have to put
them on the stand. More on that next time. For
more information on the case and relevant photos, follow us
on Instagram at kat Underscore Studios. The piked In Masker
is produced by Stephanie Lydecker, Jeff Shane, Chris Caccaro, Andrew Arnow,
(31:21):
Gabriel Castillo, and me Courtney Armstrong. Editing and sound designed
by Jeff ta music by Jared Aston. The piked In
Masker is a production of iHeart Radio and Kati Studios.
For more podcasts from iHeart Radio, visit the iHeart Radio app,
Apple Podcasts, or wherever you listen to your favorite shows.
(31:45):
Please welcome mar Fight County, Dogwood Festival. Queen Lord, I
just thank you for bringing us all together as a community. Okay,
hold on well, sad all over the hap who could
have killed eight family members in one nine I lost
(32:05):
my best friends and I will never be the same
because of that day. Four crime scenes, no DNA, no witnesses.
The killer left those children laying in their mother's blood.
The word that comes to mind is overkilled. Who was
the master mind, I'm telling you is a crimer. I'm
(32:27):
not pitty and prisons. One thing I learned. The smaller
the town, the bigger the sacreds. Be sure to watch
our upcoming documentary, The Pike County Murders, a Family Massacre,
premiering on NBC Universal's Oxygen Network and also streaming on
Peacock this Thanksgiving Day weekend November twenty fourth and November
(32:51):
twenty fifth. Please check your local listings and our hearts
are with the Rodents and the Gilly families.
When asked about being on the witness stand against her son, Wagner,
with tears in her eyes, said, this is not easy
for me. It rips my heart out. Apparently Georgie or
Jake quit are having nightmares, and Georgia had become a
different person, and she brought that up to Billy, and
Billy apparently told her, I don't know why George is
having any trouble. He didn't shoot anybody. She asked Billy,
(00:27):
why so many? He told her because they were there.
Billy apparently is a doomsday prepper. Now at the fact
that you've now murdered eight people and you're on the limb,
and Billy was crazy paranoid. I have never in all
the years I've been doing this, has ever seen a
case where mother testified against son. Well, George's got held
(00:52):
pay now because he's the one's on trial. This is
the Piked and Massacre Returned to Pike County season four,
episode twenty, Angela Wagner takes the Stand Part two. I'm
Courtney Armstrong, a television producer at Katie's Studios with Stephanie
(01:14):
Leidegger and Jeff Shane. It's important to note that George
Wagner the fourth has pleaded not guilty and has maintained
his innocence. His father, Billy Wagner, whose trial is upcoming,
has also pleaded not guilty to all charges. In the
previous episode, we left off with Angela Wagner testifying about
the morning after Billy, Jake, and George murdered eight members
(01:36):
of the Rodent, Manly and Gilly families. Angela opted out
of her testimony being recorded. Here's James Pilcher, longtime investigative
journalists from Cincinnati now with Local twelve. Se gets up
the next morning and Billy's there and Jake's outside, and
they turn on the news and it's already on the
(01:56):
news and they've identified possibly seven victims. I'm don kenneth
yet And according to her testimony, she looks at him
and says, why so many? And he turns to her
and he says, because they were there. He had already
told her that the plan was, whoever's there is going
to go. It's collateral damage. They had their primary targets
(02:20):
in mind, but anybody else was going to have to
go too. We heard in Jake Wagner's testimony about how
their kill list expanded beyond Hannah May. Prior to the murders,
Here's Anngeonette Levy, investigative journalist and host for the Long
Crime Network. Billy said, well, now if you kill her,
you're going to have to kill Chris and Frankie because
(02:42):
they will know who you did it and they will
come after you. So it was just this insane like, oh,
well we're going to kill her, we got to kill
everybody else too, And just the way that they came
up with this, just thinking, oh, I have no other
choice but to drive up to Union Hill Road on
an April night and slaughter people. Some of the people
were killed, you know, they were only killed because they
(03:04):
were there. I mean, Hannah, Hazel Gilly was killed only
because she was there. Chris Junior likely killed only because
he was there. Gary Rodin likely killed just because he
was there. Kenneth Roden, according to them, killed because he
was a strong guy, protective of his family and he
would know who did it and he would come an
(03:24):
exact revenge. I mean, so horrifying. According to Angela's testimony,
Billy directed the family to not speak about the murders.
She also confessed to her family agreeing on an alibi
to tell police that they were all at home during
the killings. The whole thing afterwards was Billy telling her
and telling the whole family, you cannot talk about anything
(03:47):
in front of anybody. To make sure nobody finds out
that it's us. They would write stuff down on paper
and walk out to the field in the barn and
burn it. The day after the murders, Billy gave way
the truck the Wagners used to get to the Rodents'
households to his niece. According to Angela, Jake was the
first member of the family to speak with law enforcement.
(04:10):
She was nervous. The prosecutor asks Angela if she thought
they would get away with it. She also said she
didn't think they'd necessarily get away with this, which I
found interesting. In May of twenty seventeen, the Wagners moved
to Alaska. Here's Stephanie who was in the courtroom during
(04:32):
Angela Wagner's testimony. They decide they have to move, so
they go to Alaska, and Billy really didn't want to
move because Frederica was dead against it. She did not
want Billy moving with the family. In fact, she had
a private conversation with Angela saying that she would pay
Angela one thousand dollars a month if Billy didn't move.
(04:56):
They always wanted to go to Alaska. They felt like
the job prospect for better there and they wanted to
get away from all the noise. They loved Alaska, and
they sold their house on Peterson Road. They didn't really
have any other place to go. According to Angela, Billy's
father passed away while they were in Alaska. Billy started
to quote lose it and began drinking a lot, becoming unstable.
(05:19):
Everybody's having a really weird transition at that point. Billy
apparently is off the chains, paranoid and has always felt
like the TVs are listening and kind of rides that
line like so much. So when why two K was
happening in the year two thousand, he had a bread
truck and they filled it with water and supplies and
(05:40):
then they buried it, so that when why two K happened,
that they were prepared for that. So now add the
fact that you're on the lamb and you're trying to
get away with it. Billy was crazy, paranoid, but generally speaking,
would only speak to everybody outside in like a driveway
because he was afraid to be around the televisions. She said, quote,
(06:04):
I told him, I don't think we should have involved
them in the homicides, the planning, or any of it.
We should not have done that. And what she meant
by that was apparently Georgia or Jake whit are having
nightmares and not sleeping well, and Georgia had become a
different person, and she brought that up to Billy, and
(06:25):
Billy apparently told her, I don't know why George is
having any trouble. He didn't shoot anybody. Meanwhile, in Ohio,
law enforcement is gathering evidence that ties the Wagners to
the murders. In May of twenty seventeen, the Wagners are
interrupted at the Canadian border by BCI agents. The agents
(06:47):
asked Angela if she knew of any custody agreements between
Jake and Hannah over custody of their shared daughter. At first,
Angela denied she knew anything. Here's a reminder of the
portion of the recordings taken of Angela Wagner when she's
interviewed by the BCI at the Canadian border. So this
(07:08):
right here is a slow family interview. They are hmm, Okay, yeah,
I don't remember. You don't remember that. The document appears
to be a custody agreement saying that in the event
(07:30):
of Hannah Rodin's death, that custody of her daughter would
go to Jake. It has Hannah's signature on the form.
Detectives tell Angela Wagner they found it at her home.
This is what we're curious about them. And then it
was do you know who that is? Yeah, that's my mom.
Got your mom? So your mom notarized us. Nice, but
you didn't know about it. I don't remember it, okay.
(07:53):
The document appeared to be notarized by Angela's mother during
the same interview with the Canadian Border Law Enforcement also
collected a writing sample from Angela. Suddenly she's realizing that
they're looking into things very quickly. In her testimony, Angela
(08:14):
details what happen next. She basically flubbed that part of it,
and she was like kicking herself that this was like
the thing that she messed up. She's the one that
did the misstep. Here. Now they're like and they could
tell that she was lying and that the custody papers
were going to turn around and be a problem too.
(08:36):
So they get released, they go back and Rid a
newcom person who's signature she just forged, and Billy had
a secret meeting in this laundry room with the dryer
on because they didn't want anybody to be able to
hear them. She basically has to confess to her mom
that she forged her name and that the police are
(08:58):
kind of looking into it, and you know, she felt
very badly about it, and that Rita volunteered to take
the fall for her just to say, no worries, I'll
just say it was my handwriting. So Rita apparently very
willingly stepped into it to take the fall. And then
it wasn't until much later that Angela found out that
(09:19):
Rita in fact had confessed and pled guilty far prior
and was actually working with authorities to get a wire
tap or some sort of recorded confession from one of
the boys, so she's actually working for the BCI. On
the stand, Angela testifies that she forged the custody documents.
(09:42):
Wagner admitted to forging the custody documents using her mother,
Rita's notary public stamp, so that her family would get
Sophia should Jake Orhannah be killed Angela. Adner also testifies
that during the interview at the Canadian border, she knew
law enforcement was on to them. Here's Stephanie, she's doing
this interview you. They've all been separated, and now she realizes,
(10:04):
oh my goodness, they have stuff on me, and she's
not really prepared for some reason, she's ill prepared to
answer the custody stuff. She gives the writing sample. And
then also there was some receipts or something regarding the
shoes that we know she bought on surveillance, and she
didn't have a really good answer for did you buy
these shoes? Her answer was no, I didn't get those shoes.
(10:27):
And then they're like, oh, really, surprise, here you are
on surveillance, and apparently she changes her demeanor, and its
evident in that interview also how she can flip a
switch a little bit. We have a receipt for those
shoes purchased by you. Yeah, so you're them over buying.
(10:51):
I purchased them. I'm telling you. They didn't like them.
They wouldn't wear her, you know, they wanted to pair
her shoes. They always wear them hook to do. I've
also I don't know about that on the stand. Angela
admits to buying the shoes that left footprints at one
of the crime scenes. She told jurors that she bought
shoes at a Walmart for her sons to wear the
(11:12):
night of the murders while George and Jake waited outside
the store. But a key moment was when she said
that she talked about the shoe prints with George and
she said, they're telling us there's two shoe prints there,
and she says George told her one of them was mine.
I tried to smudge it out and Dad said, no,
(11:33):
don't worry about it. We got to go. Come on,
and that's at Chris Rvan Senior's house. She obviously was
caught red handed buying the shoes. She doesn't remember seeing
the boys put the shoes on, but she remembers hanging
them on the bag, and after the night of the murders,
they were gone. In June of twenty seventeen, while the
Wagners were living in Alaska, law enforcement issued a press
(11:57):
release that included photos of the four wagoners and asked
anyone with information about the roadentmasker to contact the police.
At this point in the investigation, Angela is getting progressively
more paranoid. Now on the stand today, Angela Wagner admitted
she's been a liar and a thief, and she talked
about the paranoia she felt as investigators started closing in
and asking her family questions. In the spring of twenty eighteen,
(12:20):
special agent Ryan Scheiderer sent a text to George Wagner
with a photo that allegedly showed Jake Wagner holding the
twenty two cult nine to eleven used in the homicides.
They found that and the picture of the gun in
Jake's hand on the backup of his phone that they
got on the laptop on them on Hannah Border. The
prosecution asked Angela about the photo. Angela testifies that she
(12:43):
didn't recognize the hand at first, but then saw the
thumb and thought that it looked like Jake's. George Wagner,
according to his mom, wanted to confess long before his
younger brother and his mother Angela did so. And then
also big piece of information. Apparently George offered to take
the fall for Angela and for everyone that George gave
(13:07):
the offer that he'll take a blame for everybody, and
she says said, I couldn't do that to him. We're
going to take a break. We'll be back in a moment.
(13:27):
While the Wagners are living in Alaska, Jake meets his
new wife, Elizabeth. When she took the stand, Elizabeth Armor
discussed the alleged abuse, allegations that ultimately turned out to
be baseless. From Angela Wagner's testimony, it did not appear
that she liked Elizabeth, and she didn't feel comfortable ever
really having Elizabeth alone with the granddaughter. Angela did not
(13:52):
like her since she was quote weird, and she didn't
feel comfortable with her changing in front of you. In fact,
she made that kind of a mandate and that basically,
if it wasn't with Angela attached to her leg then
she was with Jake. There's one point in the testimony
where Angela Wagner says that her granddaughter told her other grandmother,
(14:13):
Rita Newcomb, that Elizabeth had touched her. Angela asked the
toddler about it, and she allegedly responded no, no, no,
and took it back. Angela then told Jake, who tried
to speak with his daughter about it and later confronts
it Elizabeth about the same Angela was present during the confrontation.
Jake said that if what his daughter was saying was true,
(14:34):
he'd beat Elizabeth. Here's Stephanie. Here, she is entering this world.
If Angela was home and Jake was at work, Elizabeth
would stay home in her room with the door locked,
but never alone would and then once in a blue
moon she would go for a walk, and Angela didn't
really know where she would go, but we've heard this.
(14:56):
Elizabeth was writing in her journal and would journal things
and then she would go out to the driveway out
front and burn it up, and it was kind of
her way of therapy, as it, Angela explains. So she
would write it down in the form of a letter
to her grandfather, and then she would go out front
and burn it. And Angela after a while was like,
you cannot be burning things in the front driveway. So
(15:20):
she was very troubled by that. So one day Elizabeth
is going out and Angela goes into her room and
starts snoopings through the stuff and finds the letter that
she had written about her in regards to Angela that
she hadn't gotten to burn yet. And she's saying this
so softly, like ugh, it's like a scary movie. It
legitimately is she's just saying something sweet and innocent, like
(15:41):
she was just concerned, because I mean, she can't have
BCI thinking that they're destroying evidence in the front driveway.
So she finds like a one subject loosely finder and
it says no, dear granddaddy, but it seems like a
diary entry from a sixteen year old, you know, and
basically said that there's a lot of fighting in the
(16:03):
house and a lot of yelling in the house, and
it was disparaging about Angela in general, nothing super damning,
but just that it was stressful in there. And when
she saw that, she took a photograph of it, and
she took that photo and sent it to George. So
here they are so paranoid about the BCI, and they
know that there are cameras everywhere, and they assume that
(16:24):
their TVs are bugged and that their cars are bugged,
and that the phones are bugged. Yet Angela took a
photograph of this journal entry and send it via text
to George. And now we're seeing a picture of it
in the big screen at the trial. So she texts
this picture to George and George is very upset about it,
(16:46):
and then she tells Jake about it, and then Jake
is very upset about it. But she also thought that
Elizabeth was a plant. They thought maybe she was a
spy working for the BCI. She even says to Angie Kinneppa,
I don't know, she could have been a plant working
for you, signaling to Angie Caineppa. Angela testified that she
drew up a contract before Jake and Elizabeth got married.
(17:08):
In those roles, it was stipulated that if they were
to break up, Elizabeth would have no connection to the Weekend.
After the wedding, the Wagners and Elizabeth moved back to Ohio.
A few months later, Jake and Elizabeth divorce. On the stand,
Angela speaks about what brought them back to Ohio. She
started getting visibly choked up when she spoke about Pug,
(17:30):
her father, and how he passed away. She wasn't there
when he died, and had she known how sick he was,
he was in such a state that she would have
come back from Alaska sooner to be with him, and
that is in fact why they came back from Alaska.
So they ultimately ended up living at Pug's house because
(17:51):
he since has passed In Ohio, Angela Wagner's paranoia grows.
Here's medical examiner Joseph Scott Morgan. I think that when
individuals attempt to control others, particularly in a criminal enterprise,
where there's a lot of planning that goes into it,
there's a certain level of paranoid behavior that kicks in.
(18:11):
I know that there was one instance where they were
interacting with someone that had shown up in the house
and she thought there was going to be a sniper
up in the woods that as soon as she opened
the door that they were around between her eyes. And
what kind of person thinks like that? So when they're
planning the killings, this mask when they're planning this, I
think that that higher self awareness and awareness of your
(18:31):
surroundings everything goes into these kind of paranoid beliefs. Perhaps.
On November eighteenth, twenty eighteen, Billy, Angela, George, and Jake
were arrested in charge with murdering the Rodent, Manly and
Gilly families. The four of them pleaded not guilty. Angela
testifies that the first time she heard about Jake taking
a plead deal was on the news. Here's Stephanie. She
(18:54):
only heard that Jake cut a deal while in prison,
seeing it on breaking news, and it was her heart
just got ripped open that day. And I wish they
had asked why because it was your heart ripped open
because now you're being caught and your boys just turned
on you. Or is your heart ripped open because now
(19:16):
you're realizing that these murders really happened. Five months after
hearing about Jake's plea deal, Angela changes her plea to guilty.
This is in September of twenty twenty one. On cross examination,
the defense challenges Angela on the terms of her plea deal. Now,
according to prosecutors, this plea deal Angela was given was
a thirty year sentence to be served in full so
(19:38):
long as she admits to her role in the killings
of the Road and family in twenty sixteen. However, the
defense argued that it was only after Jake pled guilty
that she decided to as well, claiming that Angela only
did so to prevent her sons from testifying against her. Now,
Angela argued back against the defense, saying that was only
partly true, and claimed there were multiple reasons for her
coming forward. This is a big jaw dropper. She only
(19:59):
took the plea deal because she did the math and
hoped that she could get out at eighty at the
bare minimum, she could then hug her grandbabies and hug
her sons and husband one last time before she died.
Here again, investigative reporter James Pilcher. To be honest, I
think she was telling them the truth when she testified.
(20:21):
She wanted a chance to see your kids again and
see your grandkids again. That's her whole life, you know.
However twisted this family might have been. That family was
all she had, and so she wants a chance to
be reunited with them, and in her own worldview, this
deal possibly makes that possible. The defense argues that Angela
(20:45):
got the plea deal of the century. The evidence would
be that Jake and Angela have conned the state of
Ohio here as well. They've conned the state of Ohio
into the most tenuous crime, into a thirty year sentence.
He's most deserving of death. He escapes with life. In
order to avoid the death penalty, they must implicate George.
(21:09):
Here's Jeff speaking with attorney and legal analyst Mike Allen,
Is this a sweetheart deal? And did she earn her deal? Oh?
I think she definitely earned her deal. I think her
testimony was credible, and you look at it from the
state's point of view, I mean, I don't think they
gave up much. She's I believe, will be eighty years
old when she's eligible for parole. She may not make
(21:32):
it out other than on a stretcher. It was a
smart deal for the state because they got a lot
of testimony from her that does coincide and jibe with
some of the other testimony some of the physical evidence
in the case too. Remember Angela testified that George wanted
to take the fall for the family months before Jake
(21:53):
pleaded guilty. Here's Stephanie. George tries to take the fall
for all of them. She says, no, she could never
do that. And then really, the only main reason also
that she took the plea agreement for the thirty years
is because she couldn't possibly bear Jake going through the
trauma of having to testify against her. She just wouldn't
put him through that, which sounds great until you realize
(22:16):
you're actually staring at your other son right now. On
the one hand, she's being so kind yeah to Jake,
and she wouldn't put him through it, But she's saying
that at the trial of her other son, who she's
putting through it. The defense brings up a letter that
Angela wrote to her mother in law, Frederica, after she
accepted the plea deal. She wrote a letter to Frederica
from prison, a handwritten letter, and she had to read
(22:39):
it out loud, and she wanted her to know that basically,
everything they're all saying in court is not true. And
they're just saying that because they want to get the
plea agreement. And the reason why that's a big deal
is because again, she just pled to this. So just
by that letter alone, she's saying she's a liar. She's
(23:01):
a liar either way. You lied to your mother in
law from prison saying not to believe anything you said
in court. So why are we believing anything or saying
in court? Why did she write that letter and what
does she really mean by it in terms of she
wasn't really guilty of the things they say she was
guilty of, trying to make her sound like she didn't
really believe in her own plea deal and what she
(23:22):
said she meant by it was, yeah, I pleaded the burglary,
and I pleaded to the gun specs, but I wasn't
really there and I didn't hold a gun. That's what
she said she meant when she wrote to Fredrika. And
here's another key quote, we're nothing like what the media
portrays us, as Nash hits her on this too. Nash
(23:43):
and the Cross says, not anywhere in that letter you
express remorse for taking the lives of eight innocent people,
and you're not getting a fair trial for that. And
she says, to be honest, that's because voters will be
looking for someone to blame. I wanted to make sure
that they got the truth. Voters, she meant curers, of course,
because the voters are yourors. The defense says that Angela
(24:05):
Wagner is lying to satisfy her and of the bargain,
with no regard for her son, George. Angela Wagner testified
on the stand for three days. Where does George Wagner,
the man on trial stand after all of this testimony.
Some of the biggest takeaways from Angela Wagner's testimony was
(24:26):
she says George knew about the plan to murder the Rodents,
and he helped with the cover up them. Well, George
got held pay now because he's won his on trial.
But he's a creature of free will, and he made
these decisions of his own free will. But you know,
trust me, Angela was there in the background. Jake was
a tool in her hands, just like Billy was. And
(24:46):
you know, we're seeing George on trial, and George made
a choice. I think about the influences that Angela exerted
over him, compelled him. She was still his mama, and
at the end of the day, that's more powerful than
a lot of other things. Then the prosecution finished their
questioning by asking Angelo whether she regretted her actions. She
then became visibly emotional in court, saying yes, quote, because
(25:09):
they're my sons. I should have protected them from that situation.
We're going to take a break. We'll be back in
a moment. At the end of Agelist's testimony, the defense
asked her about her relationship with her sons. When Nash
(25:31):
asked her if she favored Jake over his brother, Wagner
told the court, I did not have a favorite son.
I love George just as I do Jake. When asked
about being on the witness stand against her son, Wagner,
with tears in her eyes, said, this is not easy
for me. It rips my heart out. The defense continues
their cross of Angelo here again, James Pilcher, and then
(25:54):
she's asked, this is a tragedy you created, Yes, it is,
Missus Wagner. Do you love your sons? Yes? Do you
believe they love you? I hope so. She's in tears
at this point. How difficult has it been to testify? Extremely?
She's not even looking at him at this point. Do
you still regret having involved your sons? Yes? Obviously those
(26:15):
were emotional questions that she was asked. She answered them,
I think honestly. When she was asked, do you think
George loves you? And she said she hoped so, which
was reasonable and probably an honest answer under the circumstances
for a mother to be testifying against her son. I
don't think she would know whether he still loved her
(26:35):
or not, because that's a hell of a thing. Again,
long crimes Annette Levy, Well, is she sorry for herself
or is she sorry for her son? She had told
Billy she was sorry they involved Jake and George like
they shouldn't have done that. I guess she thought maybe
they should have just done it themselves. I don't know.
She obviously has feelings for them and loves them, but
(26:58):
is that real love when you bring your kids into
a murder plot. Angela barely made eye contact with her son,
George throughout her three days of testimony. I have never,
in all the years I've been doing this, ever seen
a case I don't care if it's a shoplifting case
or an aggravated murder case where mother testified against son.
(27:20):
I'm sure it's happened somewhere in the world before, but
I've never seen it. There was that one story, you know,
that really got my attention. I think he goes back
to the time when George was maybe sixteen, and he
had had it up to his eyeballs to the family,
and he had his car and he's at it south.
I think he made it into Kentucky and he realized
he was gonna run out of gas, and he turned
(27:41):
around headed back. I often think of that sixteen year
old kid and George, you know, I think if he
had to do over again, he would have worked and
worked until he he could have paid for several tanks
and gasoline just to put as much distance between him
and them. I certainly think he would now consider the
position that he's in. You know, he's on trial right
now for life. Here's Jeff and Mike Allen, and what
(28:03):
about if he's found guilty. Can they write to each
other or call each other from prison to prison? I
don't think they can. You still got, obviously Billy's case hang,
and I think they'll kind of keep that separation in
place until all of the cases are over with. But
it would be interesting to see how they communicate and
what they have to say to each other, because for now,
(28:24):
if there's any communication at all, it's gotta be through
the lawyers. It's just so interesting. I'm thinking like this
could be the last time they see each other, not
that they really communicated, but that they have any sort
of interaction for the rest of their lives. In George's defense,
his attorneys argue that even though George was a part
of the family, he kept his distance from these crimes.
(28:47):
George knew his family had done a lot of bad
things in their life, but he had never known them
to ever commit a crime of violence. He couldn't believe it,
he denied it at the end of this testimony. How
did the defense and prosecution do? Is horrible as the
crime was, I do think she came off as credible
and I don't think the defense was able to really
(29:09):
do any damage to her on cross examination. I think
for the prosecution it's a brilliant move. The dirty details
in this case are important, but they're not as important
as the overarching theme. The slight writing of a mystery
novel or a screenplay. You have an overarching theme and
(29:32):
it rises in Jake, and it says an Angela because
she's the big finale. I mean, she truly is. She's
the great, big exclamation point. And I think the really
sad thing about this is that her life's not new
every She's not the one that has her life on
the line here. She's cut a deal, and I think
that she's chief among sinners, but these others are not
(29:54):
going to see the light of day. I thought the
defense made good points and their cross examinations of both
Jake and Angela, But I think that Jake and Angela's testimony,
coupled with the wire taps, do not bode well for George.
Even if you believe that Jake and Angelo, let's say
(30:15):
they implicated George just because they had to in order
to get these plea deals that they wanted the wire taps.
In a lot of respects, he still sounds like he's
in the thick of this and he knows exactly what's
going on. They all live together, and you grew up
committing crimes together. You would think that that would just
(30:35):
be very difficult for the defense to overcome, for them
to come into court and feel confident that they were
going to somehow poken of holes in Jake and Angela's
testimony to make George not guilty beyond a reasonable doubt.
I'm not saying it's not possible, and Angela Wagner said,
we are all guilty. So I think that they've got
(30:58):
a tough mountain to find. They may have to put
them on the stand. More on that next time. For
more information on the case and relevant photos, follow us
on Instagram at kat Underscore Studios. The piked In Masker
is produced by Stephanie Lydecker, Jeff Shane, Chris Caccaro, Andrew Arnow,
(31:21):
Gabriel Castillo, and me Courtney Armstrong. Editing and sound designed
by Jeff ta music by Jared Aston. The piked In
Masker is a production of iHeart Radio and Kati Studios.
For more podcasts from iHeart Radio, visit the iHeart Radio app,
Apple Podcasts, or wherever you listen to your favorite shows.
(31:45):
Please welcome mar Fight County, Dogwood Festival. Queen Lord, I
just thank you for bringing us all together as a community. Okay,
hold on well, sad all over the hap who could
have killed eight family members in one nine I lost
(32:05):
my best friends and I will never be the same
because of that day. Four crime scenes, no DNA, no witnesses.
The killer left those children laying in their mother's blood.
The word that comes to mind is overkilled. Who was
the master mind, I'm telling you is a crimer. I'm
(32:27):
not pitty and prisons. One thing I learned. The smaller
the town, the bigger the sacreds. Be sure to watch
our upcoming documentary, The Pike County Murders, a Family Massacre,
premiering on NBC Universal's Oxygen Network and also streaming on
Peacock this Thanksgiving Day weekend November twenty fourth and November
(32:51):
twenty fifth. Please check your local listings and our hearts
are with the Rodents and the Gilly families.
Hosts And Creators
Stephanie Lydecker
Courtney Armstrong
Jeff Shane
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