August 14, 2024 • 36 mins
Embedded in Moscow to report on the massacre, a journalist uncovers much more than she anticipated and we explore the controversial Christ Church and its possible effect on the case.
Check us out online:
www.tiktok.com/@officialktstudios
See omnystudio.com/listener for privacy information.
Mark as Played
Transcript
Episode Transcript
Available transcripts are automatically generated. Complete accuracy is not guaranteed.
Speaker 1 (00:03):
One of the community members told me, you know, Moscow
will never be the same again. And when I heard that,
it broke my heart.
Speaker 2 (00:11):
It's hard not to imagine the victims in their last steps,
in their last meals. It's impossible not to be haunted
by that.
Speaker 1 (00:18):
I'm sitting towards the back, and then I see him
walk in, and then we locked eyes.
Speaker 3 (00:29):
This is the Idaho Massacre a production of KATI Studios
and iHeartRadio, Season two episode ten, Boots on the Ground.
Courtney Armstrong, our producer at Katie's Studios, with Stephanie Leidecker
and Gabe Castillo. Stephanie and I spoke with veteran journalist
(00:51):
Tanya Rashid, who traveled to Moscow and stayed there on
and off of the course of eight months. Tanya has
worked for outlets including National g Geographic Vice, and PBS
News Hour. We asked Tanya what drew her to this
type of work.
Speaker 1 (01:10):
I think part of the reason why I became a
journalist has a lot to do with my exposure to
extreme worlds. I was born in Saudi Arabia and then
we moved to Salt Lake City, so it's like one
isolated place. Saudi Arabia to Utah, which is like totally
polar opposites. So I feel like that has a lot
to do with my curiosity for different worlds. For me,
(01:34):
it's been a lot about uncovering difficult stories, hard to
access stories, and for the past thirteen years, somehow organically
my niche has become covering traumatized communities. I've covered famine, genocide,
gender based violence across the world, and tragedy in our
own backyard.
Speaker 3 (01:55):
Tragedy in our own backyard. I feel like that brings
us to know the tragedy in Moscow, Idaho.
Speaker 1 (02:02):
When I got there, it was three months after, and
the community itself was incredibly just very afraid and not
wanting to associate with any media whatsoever because after the murders,
as you both very well know, there was a lot
(02:24):
of press and internet saluts just taking over the sleepy
town part of me. When I arrived there, I felt
like I was in the seventies, like in the seventies film,
because everyone's just very hippy tastic there. Prior to arriving,
I was afraid because Idaho, I'm thinking, you know, being
a brown Muslim woman arriving in this community, like how
(02:47):
will they receive me. But you know, Moscow residents are
some of the kindest, most wonderful people that I've encountered,
and that was surprising to me. But yeah, and when
I arrived, I could feel the tension on the ground.
And so that's like my first observation when I got
to the ground that I really needed to take my
(03:08):
time and get to know the people in a very
very sensitive and mindful way.
Speaker 3 (03:13):
When you did first touchdown in Moscow, can you just
describe what was it like, you know, the energy of
the community. Did that change or evolve as days went on?
Speaker 1 (03:24):
Well, I landed and Spokane and I drove two hours
in the night, and as I drove, I noticed the
rolling hills the Poloue, and since I was driving at night,
it was just kind of eerie. And I had never
been to Moscow before, so in my mind, I'm thinking
what am I doing? And I wonder did the suspected
(03:47):
killer drive down these roads. It's just like all these
thoughts went through my mind. So that night I had
dinner at the Mad Greek where Maddi Mogan and Xana
Kernodle had worked, and having dinner there was also a
very unsettling and eerie experience. Shortly after that, I went
(04:08):
to the Corner Club and I could just feel there
was this tension you can cut through with a knife.
So I arrived at the Corner Club, I had a
drink and then I looked down at the table and
I see a picture of Mattie, Xana and Ethan and
Kaylee on under the glass table, that one famous photo
(04:29):
that's all over the news, And I'm just like is
It's something about reading it and another kind of feeling
when you're just in the location and looking at their
picture real time. If I just thought I'm here, I'm reporting.
I just want to go to all the places and
see what it's like. So that was my first night.
But I will say I was at the murder site
(04:50):
quite a few times, and there are ring cameras. Neighbors
have cameras, and I do wonder if the police have
taken them men and what they might discover.
Speaker 2 (05:03):
You bring up neighbors. I've seen certain people give interviews
on the news or etc. Because look, it was a
house amongst many From what we've been told, it's sort
of a dead end street. You would be super intentional
if you were going to that particular house, right, it's
not on a major road that goes to someplace else.
Speaker 1 (05:23):
Yeah, that's accurate. I mean it took me a few
moments to recognize it because the house was boarded up.
The house is hard to spot, But once you're there,
the neighbors and people immediately see you and they're not
happy for you to be there, and rightfully so. And
I wonder if the demolishment of the home had a
(05:45):
lot to do with that. This constant reminder.
Speaker 2 (05:48):
Whether you're reading about it or hearing about it on
a podcast or seeing it on the news, it's very
different than when you're actually boots on the ground, and
it's hard not to imagine the victims in their last steps,
in their last meals. It's impossible not to be haunted
by that.
Speaker 1 (06:06):
Vicarious trauma is real. One of the community members told me,
you know, Moscow will never be the same again, and
when I heard that, it broke my heart, because it's true.
This case has totally changed the energy of this town
and how people even engage with one another.
Speaker 3 (06:26):
Tanya, I'm very interested to get into the fact of
what it was like, because you were there and attended
hearings with the accused with people we have now only
seen on TV or instill pictures. And I'm reminded of
when we were covering the piked In massacre and we
(06:49):
went to several of the childs and I was there
when convicted murderer Jake Wagner was there, and it was
so striking to me just the feel in this courtroom.
And there was nobody on the Wagner side. There was
nobody on the ACU side to support them, not one
person of support, not a family member, a friend, a reverend,
(07:12):
whereas on the victim side, the victim's family were there
absolutely steadfast and just holding court in the courtroom on
their side. So it was a really interesting juxtaposition. What
was the feeling like? Can you describe what the hearings
were like?
Speaker 1 (07:30):
The first hearing I went to was the arraignment, and
while I stood outside of the courthouse, I encountered the
couple that came in from another country that were on
this crime tourism thing and that was their form of
taking a vacation coming to this arraignment. And you know,
(07:52):
Moscow is a really small town. So the organization of
letting reporters, community members all into the courthouse was a
bit of a I don't want to say a mess,
but they have never dealt with anything like this before.
It's just an overwhelming amount of international national news reporters,
salutes and just everyone and residents just wanting to see.
(08:15):
And I remember I had to put my name on
the list. And then I went in and Coburger arrived
in an orange jumpsuit, and Taylor a couple of police officers,
the judge obviously, and then I look and I see,
if I'm not mistaken, I think and solve this family
(08:35):
were at the arraignment, and Shannon Gray, their attorney.
Speaker 2 (08:38):
Wait, the arraignment is a big deal too. Is that
the first time that mister Gonzalvez would have seen the accused,
Brian Coburger in the courtroom face to face?
Speaker 1 (08:50):
I would think so.
Speaker 2 (08:51):
I think so too.
Speaker 1 (08:53):
Then after the charges were read, Brian Coberger's attorney declined
to inter plea and elected to stand silent. That prompted
the judge to enter and not guilty plea. This is
the interesting thing that I've been reporting on and I
haven't talked about, and I'm talking about with you, is
I walk out. I'm sitting in the hallway, and there's
(09:13):
a been to be another hearing. I forget what the
hearing was, and then I see the Gonsolves family just
walk right past me through the hallway, just running, and
they're running down the street and I look outside. I
run out too, and I see all these cameras just
running behind them, after them. And I was really unsettling
(09:35):
to watch this grieving family coming here, you know, to
this hearing, facing this situation, and then this overwhelming presence
of intrusion, essentially.
Speaker 2 (09:50):
But I see all sides of that. On the one hand,
you have to go and you have to report on it,
and it should make us mad as hell that these
families have been put through it, right, we want to
again support and rally around them. And that's the fine line.
So now there you are. Obviously the emotion in the
courtroom has to be major. What was it like seeing
(10:11):
him for the first time.
Speaker 1 (10:13):
I can say seeing him in an orange jumpsuit and
his face in real time made it very real. I
don't know how to explain that. I'm sure you both relate.
Everything just felt almost too real. And yeah, it was
a tense moment because the families were their community leaders,
journalists just everybody just there focused on this moment, and
(10:35):
it went by pretty fast, honestly. The other hearing I
went to, which was on June twenty seventh, was interesting
because it was the first time I had seen Coburger
wearing a suit. I'm sitting towards the back, and I
see Coburger walk in, suited and booted, hair jelled, just
(10:56):
looking very put together. Quite the contrast from what I
when I had I've seen him last in an orange jumpsuit.
I'm sitting towards the back, and then I see him
walk in and then we locked eyes. It felt like
chills went down my spine. I felt gutted in my stomach.
Those few seconds felt like a whole five minutes, felt
(11:18):
much longer than the gaze. And when I looked in
his eyes, there was this very blank, blank stare, almost
like gray, but that's how I'd describe it.
Speaker 2 (11:31):
Was Brian Coberger's parents or his siblings, or any family
members present at any of the hearings that you can recall, No, I.
Speaker 1 (11:41):
Didn't see anyone from his family.
Speaker 3 (11:44):
Wow.
Speaker 2 (11:44):
It's a tough one.
Speaker 3 (11:45):
Right.
Speaker 2 (11:46):
On the one hand, you respect the privacy they're under
a gag order, going to the courtroom is going to
create perhaps more of a frenzy and open the door
to more questions. On the other side of that, you
would want to show support because by showing up, it
is saying loud and clear, we do not believe these charges.
Our son or our family member is innocent. And it's
(12:09):
a confusing thing. You know. I don't have a personal
opinion on it. It's a really big deal to be
in a situation where and Courtney can speak to this
as well. And I've been in court rooms before with
convicted killers. In your case, there has been no conviction.
He claims his innocence, and I don't think that can
be understated. Specifically, Courtney, when she went to Jake Wagner,
(12:33):
the accused Pie County murderer's trial, we had been tag
teaming and Court not to put words in your mouth,
but you were visibly upset because you had, you know,
seemingly locked eyes with Jake Wagner, and I was like, no, wait.
Speaker 1 (12:47):
What you locked eyes?
Speaker 3 (12:48):
He did it? He said he did it, and we
know he's.
Speaker 2 (12:52):
He's capable of murdering eight people, and we were shook.
If you want to share a little bit, yeah, just
his affect. This is a man who he helped coordinate
and helped fuel his family members to murder eight other people,
including the mother of his child, including the grandmother of
(13:14):
his child. And as he is telling the details of this,
you know, meticulously and slowly, as you do during examination
and cross examination, the callousness.
Speaker 3 (13:27):
It wasn't even like describing a holiday event. It was
more like describing going to the grocery store. Just the
lack of feeling the and a lot was made of
this in the press, and it really was the truth.
He's smirking, He was smirking telling this, and it was
just it was deeply unsettling.
Speaker 2 (13:48):
She came back, and then I went to George Wagner's
trial and Angela, the mother who also at that point
had taken a plead deal and confessed to plotting the
murders of eight people she knew and knew very well,
and was going to now testify against her eldest son,
guaranteeing him life in prison. I had to almost look down.
(14:12):
I was petrified to lock eyes with her. Based on
Courtney's experience, did you notice if he and I'm speaking
of the accused now, Brian Coberger, did he have any
reaction that you noticed or worth noting at any of
the hearings that you were at that maybe we just didn't.
Speaker 3 (14:29):
We haven't seen ourselves.
Speaker 1 (14:31):
He walked in with his suit and tie, and Taylor
was really well put together herself. She had her hair
was blow dried and curled, and she looked both of
them looked very put together, unlike the previous hearing where
he was in an orange jumpsuit. And during the proceedings,
she continued to say that her client was not a
(14:53):
phishing expedition and she wanted to see what evidence the
prosecution had against her client. So there was a lot
of back and forth about that during that particular hearing,
and she said, quote unquote, we've asked for several things
that we still need so and those include cell phone
(15:13):
investigations and what led the police to seek out a
Hundai like the one driven by Coburger. There was a
sense of confidence with Ann Taylor that permeated the room,
And I remember going to the bar afterwards and I
would just listen in on people just talking and they'd say, like,
(15:35):
how could.
Speaker 3 (15:36):
She do this?
Speaker 1 (15:37):
If he if he like steps foot out of that joke,
like he gets shot in the head. I'm surprised he
hasn't been shot by now. Like one of the residents said,
like it was wild. Also like this very rural aspect
to I do her residence or Moscow residence. A lot
of these men that I've met were doing physical life
(16:00):
jobs that were very physically demanding, and coming to the
bar was just a space to let loose. And the
bar is the spot for all the community folk coming together.
They're trivia games, all friends meeting up, college kids. It's
just the area where everyone flocked to.
Speaker 3 (16:26):
Let's stop here for a break. We'll be back in
a moment. During your visits, did you encounter anyone who
knew the victims or were in their circle and sort
of could speak to the before when everything was quote normal.
Speaker 1 (16:49):
I went to the University of Idaho and contacted their
journalism department and it ended up being this really fascinating
organic experience where I engaged with the student newspaper, the Argonauts,
these student journalists who were the first ones on the
(17:09):
ground when the murders took place, and I can't begin
to tell you how hard it hit them psychologically, and
just listening to their stories and how they covered this
day by day, no sleep, not eating, just there can't
begin to imagine what it's like to be a student
(17:29):
journalist living through and reporting on such a tragedy, such
a travesty. And one of the students was childhood friends
with Xanna Kernodle. But for him, what was striking to
me about him was how personal this is while also
wanting to be a good journalist and tell the story
(17:50):
the right way. So I would say that would be
my most striking example of getting close to the story
and people connected to it. I don't want to paint
Moscow as a time and that's just yeah, it's forever
change and this horrible tragedy, these tragic murders took place.
But at the same time, I also see the resilience
of the community. It's a very strong community, and with
(18:11):
the students too, you know, they want to go on
with their lives and so the campus. While there was
this somber energy, I would say there was also this
it's a bubbly college town. It's just very nice, very
it's wonderful.
Speaker 2 (18:26):
Actually, was there a sense while you were there during
the time of these hearings, did it feel like in
the town that wait, maybe this isn't the guy, and like,
we're still unsafe. Did it seem as though we look
there could still be a killer at large? Did you
feel scared.
Speaker 3 (18:43):
Or did it feel like it settled a little bit?
Speaker 1 (18:45):
A lot of the residents that I spoke to, they
said that they think it's co worker, and there was
a sense of ease among many of them, the ones
I had spoken to, he is not the word, but
a sense of Okay, he's in jail. He's in the
basement of the which, mind you, my Airbnb that I
slept in at night faced his jail cell, which was
(19:07):
an interesting way to sleep. So when I opened my
window from my bedroom, I would see where he was
being held. So in terms of being afraid, I just wondered, Oh,
this is a small town and he's being held in
this tiny little facility that seems really guarded up and protected.
But still there's like a little bit of there's an
(19:29):
anxiety that rolls in when you're in such close proximity
to this alleged killer.
Speaker 3 (19:35):
What did it look like from your Airbnb window.
Speaker 1 (19:39):
From all ends right the Airbnb window? And then I'd
go do my groceries and I'd have to walk up
the hill and pass by where he's being held. So
it was a constant reality for me. Even the airbnb
host that I was renting from, she said that she
was really concerned about the property value and if people
(19:59):
would even want to stay there. And so there's like
this sense of like you can sense that change as well,
this unsettled feeling of the people who live near the courthouse.
But yeah, walking by, there's I notice a gate, like
a fenced up gate. I think that's the open air area.
That's what one of the community residents told me, that
the prisoners are brought out to walk outside and get sunshine.
(20:22):
So he was being held in that area.
Speaker 3 (20:25):
Having been there, what are people getting wrong? What do
people need to know about the actualities.
Speaker 1 (20:32):
I think there's you know, for the community, for friends
of the victims, for those people. There's a lack of
empathy in the reporting by the journalists or documentarians covering
this case, which really puts off the residents to even
want to talk to anyone. And so the biggest takeaway
for me was these victims, like who were they before
(20:56):
all this? Like what are the stories? And we don't
hear enough of that honoring their lives honoring their light
what they brought to the world, I think would do
a great justice to the story, and I don't think
has been done enough.
Speaker 3 (21:10):
I don't know if you had heard anything about Doug
Wilson or the christ Church. Now if you care to comment,
if you have a thought, Okay, what do you know?
Speaker 1 (21:25):
There's a podcast out called Extremely American. It's really good.
It's about christ Church and it goes into the details
about Doug Wilson and all that. So in my reporting,
not only did I go to the bars and Mad
Gregg to all the spots, I also I went to
a christ Church service. And Yeah, it's very interesting because
(21:49):
it really kind of summarizes Moscow because there's this tension
between the demographic that I really connected with, like these
Pep people who are just completely liberal. It's like the
blue dot of Idaho, and then this contrasting force, though small,
I mean, like they're a minority, but still have impact
(22:13):
because they bought I think twenty percent of the real
estate in Moscow. Yeah, I went to their service and
it was a very uncomfortable experience. I got very patriarchal
man cultish vibes. I'm not in a position to comment
further because I don't know enough about them. But what
(22:36):
I do know is the Moscow residents that I did
speak to and engage with or are just disgusted by
christ Church and their beliefs and what I mean. Yeah,
and Doug Wilson. There's a cafe that all everyone goes to.
It's called One World Cafe. And I went there all
the time. The students were there, all the time, professors
(22:58):
would go there. It's just like, when you go into
that establishment, you know you are in your safe and
then they're like christ Church establishments that are there too.
And when I walk into those spaces, I'm like, well,
this does not That's such a good question, Courtney, because
that's Moscow. It's these two extreme worlds somehow coexisting together
(23:22):
through it on top of the tragic murders that.
Speaker 4 (23:25):
Took us there.
Speaker 3 (23:27):
Just the dichotomy, it seems fascinating. And you know, I
had brought it up only because I'm really curious of
the potential depending upon if the church goers end up
on the jury what that will mean.
Speaker 1 (23:42):
I do wonder what that means for the future of
this case and what role they will play. For sure,
that is, if the case is going to take place
in Latoky. If it is even we don't know yet.
Speaker 3 (23:58):
Let's stop here for another break. We'll be back in
a moment. After this conversation, Stephanie and I got further
interested in Doug Wilson's Christ Church in Moscow, Idaho. We
wanted to look into it as a way to understand
(24:19):
the backdrop of a portion of this community.
Speaker 2 (24:24):
It's sort of an interesting juxtaposition that there is on
the one side this college town where there are students
and it's very free thinking in liberal and then on
the flip of that, there's a really big portion of
the town that attends this very specific church and their
teachings are in fact very controversial. So we decided to
(24:45):
do a deeper dive. So the name of the church
is Christ Church in Moscow, and it's run by a
pastor named Doug Wilson, and his writings and his teachings
really have received a lot of backlash, specifically in the press,
and it seems though for some good reason, the church's
teachings and Wilson's leadership has sparked a lot of resistance
(25:06):
in the town of Moscow. And when doing our research,
it became pretty clear that there have been some really
scary allegations brought up against the church and the pastor
specifically some sexual allegations and reports of pedophilia.
Speaker 3 (25:25):
It's a Calvinist church and the mission, according to its
own website, is to make Moscow quote a Christian town
under God's grace. And this brought national attention to the
town of Moscow just two months before the massacres happened.
Doug Wilson was on meet the press. It had to
(25:45):
do with the larger idea of the struggle between liberalism
and Christian nationalism, so this was really a way to
spotlight it. Since again the whole mission is to turn
the town under God's rule. So in this case Doug
Wilson has come out and said, for example, they would
be new rules and new laws like no gay marriage,
(26:06):
because it would be presided over by God's rules and
not the governments.
Speaker 2 (26:13):
Their teachings really are that women must be subservient to
their husbands and that essentially this small town should be
run by the church, meaning the laws that are either
federal laws or even state laws would be dismissed and
that the church would have their godly rule over the area.
Speaker 3 (26:36):
And speaking of you know the controversies that you mentioned.
It's incredibly patriarchal, and not only does Doug Wilson the
founder and pastor of the church, but also there's a
school that goes from kindergarten up through college, and people
have since come out and said they have been groomed
to be submissive as women, and misogynistic language and teachings
(26:59):
are pervasive, and some have claimed that this has led
to abusive behavior.
Speaker 2 (27:05):
In fact, several members of the church, including former deacon
Alex Lloyd, who pleaded guilty to child pornography charges in
twenty twenty two, they face arrests and convictions related to
sex crimes.
Speaker 3 (27:20):
And in addition to pedophilia. As you had mentioned, Doug
Wilson wrote a book called Father Hunger, and in this
book specifically, he writes, quote, the sexual act cannot be
made into a egalitarian pleasuring party. A man penetrates, conquers, colonizes, plants,
a woman receives, surrenders and accepts.
Speaker 2 (27:44):
And look how this ties into the massacre. We're not
making any assertions that anybody related to the church has
any connection to the crimes themselves. It's just an interesting
Backdob that we hadn't heard about before, and we wanted
to explore. A lot has been written about the fact
that this particular church, twenty percent of the population of
(28:06):
Moscow are church members, and that has been reported in
the press as interesting or potentially problematic. When selecting a
jury pool, this particular church essentially grooms its members to
not believe in law enforcement and to be weary of
law enforcement. So now you're choosing a jury pool, and
(28:30):
invariably the numbers and the odds would be that if
one fifth of the population is a member of this church,
that their teachings would not be in alignment with listening
to proper forensics and police information as reported by first
responders or Moscow law enforcement, for example.
Speaker 3 (28:51):
And there's a particular incident that happened that really brings
that to bear. So this happened in September of twenty twenty.
It is the absolute height of COVID, and the members
of Christ Church had an event called a Palm Sing
and they gathered in front of Moscow City Hall without
masks despite mandate. During that event, people were arrested for
(29:15):
non compliance of the mask mandate. So ultimately three members
of the congregation who were arrested. They went on to
file a civil lawsuit for this arrest and the town.
Some argue that the town buckled and that instead of
going forward with prosecution, the city settled outside of court
(29:37):
and agreed to pay three hundred thousand dollars to dismiss
all claims. So that again makes people nervous that what
kind of influence does the church potentially have on officials.
And also back to your point of the jury, the
church itself has said we can't shouldn't be abiding by police.
(29:57):
They don't tell the truth. Their laws are not our law.
And so how might that in fact change a dry pool?
Speaker 2 (30:05):
We were curious if that was something that happened in
other places or other churches. And the twenty percent population
piece of it seemed really high when I first heard it.
But we have done some comparisons, again, not comparisons on religion.
We're not weighing in on that at all. Just the
idea of a church or someplace where people gather. What
(30:28):
the influence on the town that would be. Maybe it's
not super uncommon. For example, top of head, I'm thinking
of scientology. I know they have a center in clear Water, Florida,
and My understanding is the church itself has bought a
lot of land in and around that town. Therefore, the
businesses are also owned by Scientology, and the numbers in
(30:49):
that regard are pretty extraordinary. Kay, what are the stats
on the Scientology clear Water?
Speaker 4 (30:54):
As of April twenty twenty four, the church Scientology in Clearwater,
Florida owns sixty eight parcels of land worth about one
hundred and sixty eight million dollars, and its presence in
clear Water has had a significant impact on the city,
including property taxes, tourism, downtown revitalization.
Speaker 2 (31:14):
Which is interesting because if a certain church owns a
lot of the land, I would have to assume that's
controversial for tax reasons or et cetera, et cetera, et cetera.
But in this case, it seems as though the church
is not buying up shops and locations in and around Moscow.
It's just that this particular christ Church has many congregants
(31:36):
that live in the town. Therefore, they work in the town,
and if they work in the town, of course they're
going to buy homes in the town. But it's not
as though the Christ Church specifically is buying land. But
it does seem to be this really unique intersection in
surrounding areas like Troy, for example, another town over. There
(31:58):
is now some pushback on this because they really do
feel that these opposing forces are not heading down the
right direction.
Speaker 3 (32:08):
And the distinction you make between the church itself owning
land and the congregants is something that Doug Wilson actually
put a very fine point on because it has been
such a bone of contention. So here's something else that
he posted on his blog. Quote I just mentioned are
people building businesses. This is not something that is controlled
(32:28):
in any way by the church. Our members are an
enterprising bunch. Put another way, I don't own a chunk
of downtown. The only thing I own downtown would be
my truck when I'm there and the books in my office.
So he's really putting a distance between himself and the businesses,
I think, to help quell the argument that it is
(32:51):
some sort of a takeover that's shying to be happening.
Speaker 2 (32:54):
It seems like that is the main goal. And perhaps
unlike sign atology, my loose understanding is christ Church and
its pastor Doug Wilson want to create their own laws
for the town that do not abide by state laws
or frankly even federal laws, and that's a really unusual mission.
(33:18):
And you know, listen, there's these extreme cases of pedophilia accusations,
sexual abuse accusations, violence against women, the notion that they
are grooming women to be submissive to their husbands and
to be air quotes receivers. This is some fundamental stuff
that has undertones of The Handmaid's Tale or one of
(33:42):
those scary shows that I literally can't watch because they
are too scary.
Speaker 3 (33:46):
It's funny you should mention Handmaid's Tale because it seems
like Doug Wilson and or whoever's helping with his pr
they really use opposing arguments within their own arguments. So
here's another thing that he posted. What about the Christian
town part. If such a thing were to happen, it
(34:06):
would happen quietly, with no one really noticing it took shape,
and then one day people would just wake up and
realize that the seal of the city had a church
spire at the center of it. See above. We find
dystopic scenarios of the Handmaid's Tale sort of as repulsive
as you do. He then goes on to say what
they have in mind is something akin to an eighteen
(34:27):
ninety two Supreme Court decision that determined the United States
was a Christian nation. And he ends with saying we
are not looking for a hell hole with Bible verses attached.
He is hearkening back to eighteen ninety two for the
future of Moscow.
Speaker 2 (34:44):
That definitely feels like an odd step backward. I think
we should continue to dig into this because Doug Wilson
as a figure has been quoted as being very impressive
and very charismatic, and that even if you do not
believe a single thing that he say, that he has
a very influential way about him. And what influence does
(35:05):
that have on this case? But again, this is very
uniquely different and kind of an undercurrent that people who
have visited the area. As we've heard, this is really
noticeable in the town too.
Speaker 3 (35:20):
You can feel it.
Speaker 2 (35:21):
It is a cross section that's happening right now that
isn't going anywhere. It seems like it's only going to
get worse.
Speaker 3 (35:34):
More on that next time. For more information on the
case and relevant photos, follow us on Instagram at kat
Underscore Studios. The Idaho Masker is produced by Stephanie Leideger,
Gabriel Castillo, and me Courtney Armstrong. Editing and sound design
by Jeff Toois, Music by Jared Aston. The Idaho Masker
(35:56):
is a production of Kati's Studios and iHeartRadio. For more
podcasts like this, visit the iHeartRadio app, Apple Podcasts, or
wherever you listen to your favorite shows.
One of the community members told me, you know, Moscow
will never be the same again. And when I heard that,
it broke my heart.
Speaker 2 (00:11):
It's hard not to imagine the victims in their last steps,
in their last meals. It's impossible not to be haunted
by that.
Speaker 1 (00:18):
I'm sitting towards the back, and then I see him
walk in, and then we locked eyes.
Speaker 3 (00:29):
This is the Idaho Massacre a production of KATI Studios
and iHeartRadio, Season two episode ten, Boots on the Ground.
Courtney Armstrong, our producer at Katie's Studios, with Stephanie Leidecker
and Gabe Castillo. Stephanie and I spoke with veteran journalist
(00:51):
Tanya Rashid, who traveled to Moscow and stayed there on
and off of the course of eight months. Tanya has
worked for outlets including National g Geographic Vice, and PBS
News Hour. We asked Tanya what drew her to this
type of work.
Speaker 1 (01:10):
I think part of the reason why I became a
journalist has a lot to do with my exposure to
extreme worlds. I was born in Saudi Arabia and then
we moved to Salt Lake City, so it's like one
isolated place. Saudi Arabia to Utah, which is like totally
polar opposites. So I feel like that has a lot
to do with my curiosity for different worlds. For me,
(01:34):
it's been a lot about uncovering difficult stories, hard to
access stories, and for the past thirteen years, somehow organically
my niche has become covering traumatized communities. I've covered famine, genocide,
gender based violence across the world, and tragedy in our
own backyard.
Speaker 3 (01:55):
Tragedy in our own backyard. I feel like that brings
us to know the tragedy in Moscow, Idaho.
Speaker 1 (02:02):
When I got there, it was three months after, and
the community itself was incredibly just very afraid and not
wanting to associate with any media whatsoever because after the murders,
as you both very well know, there was a lot
(02:24):
of press and internet saluts just taking over the sleepy
town part of me. When I arrived there, I felt
like I was in the seventies, like in the seventies film,
because everyone's just very hippy tastic there. Prior to arriving,
I was afraid because Idaho, I'm thinking, you know, being
a brown Muslim woman arriving in this community, like how
(02:47):
will they receive me. But you know, Moscow residents are
some of the kindest, most wonderful people that I've encountered,
and that was surprising to me. But yeah, and when
I arrived, I could feel the tension on the ground.
And so that's like my first observation when I got
to the ground that I really needed to take my
(03:08):
time and get to know the people in a very
very sensitive and mindful way.
Speaker 3 (03:13):
When you did first touchdown in Moscow, can you just
describe what was it like, you know, the energy of
the community. Did that change or evolve as days went on?
Speaker 1 (03:24):
Well, I landed and Spokane and I drove two hours
in the night, and as I drove, I noticed the
rolling hills the Poloue, and since I was driving at night,
it was just kind of eerie. And I had never
been to Moscow before, so in my mind, I'm thinking
what am I doing? And I wonder did the suspected
(03:47):
killer drive down these roads. It's just like all these
thoughts went through my mind. So that night I had
dinner at the Mad Greek where Maddi Mogan and Xana
Kernodle had worked, and having dinner there was also a
very unsettling and eerie experience. Shortly after that, I went
(04:08):
to the Corner Club and I could just feel there
was this tension you can cut through with a knife.
So I arrived at the Corner Club, I had a
drink and then I looked down at the table and
I see a picture of Mattie, Xana and Ethan and
Kaylee on under the glass table, that one famous photo
(04:29):
that's all over the news, And I'm just like is
It's something about reading it and another kind of feeling
when you're just in the location and looking at their
picture real time. If I just thought I'm here, I'm reporting.
I just want to go to all the places and
see what it's like. So that was my first night.
But I will say I was at the murder site
(04:50):
quite a few times, and there are ring cameras. Neighbors
have cameras, and I do wonder if the police have
taken them men and what they might discover.
Speaker 2 (05:03):
You bring up neighbors. I've seen certain people give interviews
on the news or etc. Because look, it was a
house amongst many From what we've been told, it's sort
of a dead end street. You would be super intentional
if you were going to that particular house, right, it's
not on a major road that goes to someplace else.
Speaker 1 (05:23):
Yeah, that's accurate. I mean it took me a few
moments to recognize it because the house was boarded up.
The house is hard to spot, But once you're there,
the neighbors and people immediately see you and they're not
happy for you to be there, and rightfully so. And
I wonder if the demolishment of the home had a
(05:45):
lot to do with that. This constant reminder.
Speaker 2 (05:48):
Whether you're reading about it or hearing about it on
a podcast or seeing it on the news, it's very
different than when you're actually boots on the ground, and
it's hard not to imagine the victims in their last steps,
in their last meals. It's impossible not to be haunted
by that.
Speaker 1 (06:06):
Vicarious trauma is real. One of the community members told me,
you know, Moscow will never be the same again, and
when I heard that, it broke my heart, because it's true.
This case has totally changed the energy of this town
and how people even engage with one another.
Speaker 3 (06:26):
Tanya, I'm very interested to get into the fact of
what it was like, because you were there and attended
hearings with the accused with people we have now only
seen on TV or instill pictures. And I'm reminded of
when we were covering the piked In massacre and we
(06:49):
went to several of the childs and I was there
when convicted murderer Jake Wagner was there, and it was
so striking to me just the feel in this courtroom.
And there was nobody on the Wagner side. There was
nobody on the ACU side to support them, not one
person of support, not a family member, a friend, a reverend,
(07:12):
whereas on the victim side, the victim's family were there
absolutely steadfast and just holding court in the courtroom on
their side. So it was a really interesting juxtaposition. What
was the feeling like? Can you describe what the hearings
were like?
Speaker 1 (07:30):
The first hearing I went to was the arraignment, and
while I stood outside of the courthouse, I encountered the
couple that came in from another country that were on
this crime tourism thing and that was their form of
taking a vacation coming to this arraignment. And you know,
(07:52):
Moscow is a really small town. So the organization of
letting reporters, community members all into the courthouse was a
bit of a I don't want to say a mess,
but they have never dealt with anything like this before.
It's just an overwhelming amount of international national news reporters,
salutes and just everyone and residents just wanting to see.
(08:15):
And I remember I had to put my name on
the list. And then I went in and Coburger arrived
in an orange jumpsuit, and Taylor a couple of police officers,
the judge obviously, and then I look and I see,
if I'm not mistaken, I think and solve this family
(08:35):
were at the arraignment, and Shannon Gray, their attorney.
Speaker 2 (08:38):
Wait, the arraignment is a big deal too. Is that
the first time that mister Gonzalvez would have seen the accused,
Brian Coburger in the courtroom face to face?
Speaker 1 (08:50):
I would think so.
Speaker 2 (08:51):
I think so too.
Speaker 1 (08:53):
Then after the charges were read, Brian Coberger's attorney declined
to inter plea and elected to stand silent. That prompted
the judge to enter and not guilty plea. This is
the interesting thing that I've been reporting on and I
haven't talked about, and I'm talking about with you, is
I walk out. I'm sitting in the hallway, and there's
(09:13):
a been to be another hearing. I forget what the
hearing was, and then I see the Gonsolves family just
walk right past me through the hallway, just running, and
they're running down the street and I look outside. I
run out too, and I see all these cameras just
running behind them, after them. And I was really unsettling
(09:35):
to watch this grieving family coming here, you know, to
this hearing, facing this situation, and then this overwhelming presence
of intrusion, essentially.
Speaker 2 (09:50):
But I see all sides of that. On the one hand,
you have to go and you have to report on it,
and it should make us mad as hell that these
families have been put through it, right, we want to
again support and rally around them. And that's the fine line.
So now there you are. Obviously the emotion in the
courtroom has to be major. What was it like seeing
(10:11):
him for the first time.
Speaker 1 (10:13):
I can say seeing him in an orange jumpsuit and
his face in real time made it very real. I
don't know how to explain that. I'm sure you both relate.
Everything just felt almost too real. And yeah, it was
a tense moment because the families were their community leaders,
journalists just everybody just there focused on this moment, and
(10:35):
it went by pretty fast, honestly. The other hearing I
went to, which was on June twenty seventh, was interesting
because it was the first time I had seen Coburger
wearing a suit. I'm sitting towards the back, and I
see Coburger walk in, suited and booted, hair jelled, just
(10:56):
looking very put together. Quite the contrast from what I
when I had I've seen him last in an orange jumpsuit.
I'm sitting towards the back, and then I see him
walk in and then we locked eyes. It felt like
chills went down my spine. I felt gutted in my stomach.
Those few seconds felt like a whole five minutes, felt
(11:18):
much longer than the gaze. And when I looked in
his eyes, there was this very blank, blank stare, almost
like gray, but that's how I'd describe it.
Speaker 2 (11:31):
Was Brian Coberger's parents or his siblings, or any family
members present at any of the hearings that you can recall, No, I.
Speaker 1 (11:41):
Didn't see anyone from his family.
Speaker 3 (11:44):
Wow.
Speaker 2 (11:44):
It's a tough one.
Speaker 3 (11:45):
Right.
Speaker 2 (11:46):
On the one hand, you respect the privacy they're under
a gag order, going to the courtroom is going to
create perhaps more of a frenzy and open the door
to more questions. On the other side of that, you
would want to show support because by showing up, it
is saying loud and clear, we do not believe these charges.
Our son or our family member is innocent. And it's
(12:09):
a confusing thing. You know. I don't have a personal
opinion on it. It's a really big deal to be
in a situation where and Courtney can speak to this
as well. And I've been in court rooms before with
convicted killers. In your case, there has been no conviction.
He claims his innocence, and I don't think that can
be understated. Specifically, Courtney, when she went to Jake Wagner,
(12:33):
the accused Pie County murderer's trial, we had been tag
teaming and Court not to put words in your mouth,
but you were visibly upset because you had, you know,
seemingly locked eyes with Jake Wagner, and I was like, no, wait.
Speaker 1 (12:47):
What you locked eyes?
Speaker 3 (12:48):
He did it? He said he did it, and we
know he's.
Speaker 2 (12:52):
He's capable of murdering eight people, and we were shook.
If you want to share a little bit, yeah, just
his affect. This is a man who he helped coordinate
and helped fuel his family members to murder eight other people,
including the mother of his child, including the grandmother of
(13:14):
his child. And as he is telling the details of this,
you know, meticulously and slowly, as you do during examination
and cross examination, the callousness.
Speaker 3 (13:27):
It wasn't even like describing a holiday event. It was
more like describing going to the grocery store. Just the
lack of feeling the and a lot was made of
this in the press, and it really was the truth.
He's smirking, He was smirking telling this, and it was
just it was deeply unsettling.
Speaker 2 (13:48):
She came back, and then I went to George Wagner's
trial and Angela, the mother who also at that point
had taken a plead deal and confessed to plotting the
murders of eight people she knew and knew very well,
and was going to now testify against her eldest son,
guaranteeing him life in prison. I had to almost look down.
(14:12):
I was petrified to lock eyes with her. Based on
Courtney's experience, did you notice if he and I'm speaking
of the accused now, Brian Coberger, did he have any
reaction that you noticed or worth noting at any of
the hearings that you were at that maybe we just didn't.
Speaker 3 (14:29):
We haven't seen ourselves.
Speaker 1 (14:31):
He walked in with his suit and tie, and Taylor
was really well put together herself. She had her hair
was blow dried and curled, and she looked both of
them looked very put together, unlike the previous hearing where
he was in an orange jumpsuit. And during the proceedings,
she continued to say that her client was not a
(14:53):
phishing expedition and she wanted to see what evidence the
prosecution had against her client. So there was a lot
of back and forth about that during that particular hearing,
and she said, quote unquote, we've asked for several things
that we still need so and those include cell phone
(15:13):
investigations and what led the police to seek out a
Hundai like the one driven by Coburger. There was a
sense of confidence with Ann Taylor that permeated the room,
And I remember going to the bar afterwards and I
would just listen in on people just talking and they'd say, like,
(15:35):
how could.
Speaker 3 (15:36):
She do this?
Speaker 1 (15:37):
If he if he like steps foot out of that joke,
like he gets shot in the head. I'm surprised he
hasn't been shot by now. Like one of the residents said,
like it was wild. Also like this very rural aspect
to I do her residence or Moscow residence. A lot
of these men that I've met were doing physical life
(16:00):
jobs that were very physically demanding, and coming to the
bar was just a space to let loose. And the
bar is the spot for all the community folk coming together.
They're trivia games, all friends meeting up, college kids. It's
just the area where everyone flocked to.
Speaker 3 (16:26):
Let's stop here for a break. We'll be back in
a moment. During your visits, did you encounter anyone who
knew the victims or were in their circle and sort
of could speak to the before when everything was quote normal.
Speaker 1 (16:49):
I went to the University of Idaho and contacted their
journalism department and it ended up being this really fascinating
organic experience where I engaged with the student newspaper, the Argonauts,
these student journalists who were the first ones on the
(17:09):
ground when the murders took place, and I can't begin
to tell you how hard it hit them psychologically, and
just listening to their stories and how they covered this
day by day, no sleep, not eating, just there can't
begin to imagine what it's like to be a student
(17:29):
journalist living through and reporting on such a tragedy, such
a travesty. And one of the students was childhood friends
with Xanna Kernodle. But for him, what was striking to
me about him was how personal this is while also
wanting to be a good journalist and tell the story
(17:50):
the right way. So I would say that would be
my most striking example of getting close to the story
and people connected to it. I don't want to paint
Moscow as a time and that's just yeah, it's forever
change and this horrible tragedy, these tragic murders took place.
But at the same time, I also see the resilience
of the community. It's a very strong community, and with
(18:11):
the students too, you know, they want to go on
with their lives and so the campus. While there was
this somber energy, I would say there was also this
it's a bubbly college town. It's just very nice, very
it's wonderful.
Speaker 2 (18:26):
Actually, was there a sense while you were there during
the time of these hearings, did it feel like in
the town that wait, maybe this isn't the guy, and like,
we're still unsafe. Did it seem as though we look
there could still be a killer at large? Did you
feel scared.
Speaker 3 (18:43):
Or did it feel like it settled a little bit?
Speaker 1 (18:45):
A lot of the residents that I spoke to, they
said that they think it's co worker, and there was
a sense of ease among many of them, the ones
I had spoken to, he is not the word, but
a sense of Okay, he's in jail. He's in the
basement of the which, mind you, my Airbnb that I
slept in at night faced his jail cell, which was
(19:07):
an interesting way to sleep. So when I opened my
window from my bedroom, I would see where he was
being held. So in terms of being afraid, I just wondered, Oh,
this is a small town and he's being held in
this tiny little facility that seems really guarded up and protected.
But still there's like a little bit of there's an
(19:29):
anxiety that rolls in when you're in such close proximity
to this alleged killer.
Speaker 3 (19:35):
What did it look like from your Airbnb window.
Speaker 1 (19:39):
From all ends right the Airbnb window? And then I'd
go do my groceries and I'd have to walk up
the hill and pass by where he's being held. So
it was a constant reality for me. Even the airbnb
host that I was renting from, she said that she
was really concerned about the property value and if people
(19:59):
would even want to stay there. And so there's like
this sense of like you can sense that change as well,
this unsettled feeling of the people who live near the courthouse.
But yeah, walking by, there's I notice a gate, like
a fenced up gate. I think that's the open air area.
That's what one of the community residents told me, that
the prisoners are brought out to walk outside and get sunshine.
(20:22):
So he was being held in that area.
Speaker 3 (20:25):
Having been there, what are people getting wrong? What do
people need to know about the actualities.
Speaker 1 (20:32):
I think there's you know, for the community, for friends
of the victims, for those people. There's a lack of
empathy in the reporting by the journalists or documentarians covering
this case, which really puts off the residents to even
want to talk to anyone. And so the biggest takeaway
for me was these victims, like who were they before
(20:56):
all this? Like what are the stories? And we don't
hear enough of that honoring their lives honoring their light
what they brought to the world, I think would do
a great justice to the story, and I don't think
has been done enough.
Speaker 3 (21:10):
I don't know if you had heard anything about Doug
Wilson or the christ Church. Now if you care to comment,
if you have a thought, Okay, what do you know?
Speaker 1 (21:25):
There's a podcast out called Extremely American. It's really good.
It's about christ Church and it goes into the details
about Doug Wilson and all that. So in my reporting,
not only did I go to the bars and Mad
Gregg to all the spots, I also I went to
a christ Church service. And Yeah, it's very interesting because
(21:49):
it really kind of summarizes Moscow because there's this tension
between the demographic that I really connected with, like these
Pep people who are just completely liberal. It's like the
blue dot of Idaho, and then this contrasting force, though small,
I mean, like they're a minority, but still have impact
(22:13):
because they bought I think twenty percent of the real
estate in Moscow. Yeah, I went to their service and
it was a very uncomfortable experience. I got very patriarchal
man cultish vibes. I'm not in a position to comment
further because I don't know enough about them. But what
(22:36):
I do know is the Moscow residents that I did
speak to and engage with or are just disgusted by
christ Church and their beliefs and what I mean. Yeah,
and Doug Wilson. There's a cafe that all everyone goes to.
It's called One World Cafe. And I went there all
the time. The students were there, all the time, professors
(22:58):
would go there. It's just like, when you go into
that establishment, you know you are in your safe and
then they're like christ Church establishments that are there too.
And when I walk into those spaces, I'm like, well,
this does not That's such a good question, Courtney, because
that's Moscow. It's these two extreme worlds somehow coexisting together
(23:22):
through it on top of the tragic murders that.
Speaker 4 (23:25):
Took us there.
Speaker 3 (23:27):
Just the dichotomy, it seems fascinating. And you know, I
had brought it up only because I'm really curious of
the potential depending upon if the church goers end up
on the jury what that will mean.
Speaker 1 (23:42):
I do wonder what that means for the future of
this case and what role they will play. For sure,
that is, if the case is going to take place
in Latoky. If it is even we don't know yet.
Speaker 3 (23:58):
Let's stop here for another break. We'll be back in
a moment. After this conversation, Stephanie and I got further
interested in Doug Wilson's Christ Church in Moscow, Idaho. We
wanted to look into it as a way to understand
(24:19):
the backdrop of a portion of this community.
Speaker 2 (24:24):
It's sort of an interesting juxtaposition that there is on
the one side this college town where there are students
and it's very free thinking in liberal and then on
the flip of that, there's a really big portion of
the town that attends this very specific church and their
teachings are in fact very controversial. So we decided to
(24:45):
do a deeper dive. So the name of the church
is Christ Church in Moscow, and it's run by a
pastor named Doug Wilson, and his writings and his teachings
really have received a lot of backlash, specifically in the press,
and it seems though for some good reason, the church's
teachings and Wilson's leadership has sparked a lot of resistance
(25:06):
in the town of Moscow. And when doing our research,
it became pretty clear that there have been some really
scary allegations brought up against the church and the pastor
specifically some sexual allegations and reports of pedophilia.
Speaker 3 (25:25):
It's a Calvinist church and the mission, according to its
own website, is to make Moscow quote a Christian town
under God's grace. And this brought national attention to the
town of Moscow just two months before the massacres happened.
Doug Wilson was on meet the press. It had to
(25:45):
do with the larger idea of the struggle between liberalism
and Christian nationalism, so this was really a way to
spotlight it. Since again the whole mission is to turn
the town under God's rule. So in this case Doug
Wilson has come out and said, for example, they would
be new rules and new laws like no gay marriage,
(26:06):
because it would be presided over by God's rules and
not the governments.
Speaker 2 (26:13):
Their teachings really are that women must be subservient to
their husbands and that essentially this small town should be
run by the church, meaning the laws that are either
federal laws or even state laws would be dismissed and
that the church would have their godly rule over the area.
Speaker 3 (26:36):
And speaking of you know the controversies that you mentioned.
It's incredibly patriarchal, and not only does Doug Wilson the
founder and pastor of the church, but also there's a
school that goes from kindergarten up through college, and people
have since come out and said they have been groomed
to be submissive as women, and misogynistic language and teachings
(26:59):
are pervasive, and some have claimed that this has led
to abusive behavior.
Speaker 2 (27:05):
In fact, several members of the church, including former deacon
Alex Lloyd, who pleaded guilty to child pornography charges in
twenty twenty two, they face arrests and convictions related to
sex crimes.
Speaker 3 (27:20):
And in addition to pedophilia. As you had mentioned, Doug
Wilson wrote a book called Father Hunger, and in this
book specifically, he writes, quote, the sexual act cannot be
made into a egalitarian pleasuring party. A man penetrates, conquers, colonizes, plants,
a woman receives, surrenders and accepts.
Speaker 2 (27:44):
And look how this ties into the massacre. We're not
making any assertions that anybody related to the church has
any connection to the crimes themselves. It's just an interesting
Backdob that we hadn't heard about before, and we wanted
to explore. A lot has been written about the fact
that this particular church, twenty percent of the population of
(28:06):
Moscow are church members, and that has been reported in
the press as interesting or potentially problematic. When selecting a
jury pool, this particular church essentially grooms its members to
not believe in law enforcement and to be weary of
law enforcement. So now you're choosing a jury pool, and
(28:30):
invariably the numbers and the odds would be that if
one fifth of the population is a member of this church,
that their teachings would not be in alignment with listening
to proper forensics and police information as reported by first
responders or Moscow law enforcement, for example.
Speaker 3 (28:51):
And there's a particular incident that happened that really brings
that to bear. So this happened in September of twenty twenty.
It is the absolute height of COVID, and the members
of Christ Church had an event called a Palm Sing
and they gathered in front of Moscow City Hall without
masks despite mandate. During that event, people were arrested for
(29:15):
non compliance of the mask mandate. So ultimately three members
of the congregation who were arrested. They went on to
file a civil lawsuit for this arrest and the town.
Some argue that the town buckled and that instead of
going forward with prosecution, the city settled outside of court
(29:37):
and agreed to pay three hundred thousand dollars to dismiss
all claims. So that again makes people nervous that what
kind of influence does the church potentially have on officials.
And also back to your point of the jury, the
church itself has said we can't shouldn't be abiding by police.
(29:57):
They don't tell the truth. Their laws are not our law.
And so how might that in fact change a dry pool?
Speaker 2 (30:05):
We were curious if that was something that happened in
other places or other churches. And the twenty percent population
piece of it seemed really high when I first heard it.
But we have done some comparisons, again, not comparisons on religion.
We're not weighing in on that at all. Just the
idea of a church or someplace where people gather. What
(30:28):
the influence on the town that would be. Maybe it's
not super uncommon. For example, top of head, I'm thinking
of scientology. I know they have a center in clear Water, Florida,
and My understanding is the church itself has bought a
lot of land in and around that town. Therefore, the
businesses are also owned by Scientology, and the numbers in
(30:49):
that regard are pretty extraordinary. Kay, what are the stats
on the Scientology clear Water?
Speaker 4 (30:54):
As of April twenty twenty four, the church Scientology in Clearwater,
Florida owns sixty eight parcels of land worth about one
hundred and sixty eight million dollars, and its presence in
clear Water has had a significant impact on the city,
including property taxes, tourism, downtown revitalization.
Speaker 2 (31:14):
Which is interesting because if a certain church owns a
lot of the land, I would have to assume that's
controversial for tax reasons or et cetera, et cetera, et cetera.
But in this case, it seems as though the church
is not buying up shops and locations in and around Moscow.
It's just that this particular christ Church has many congregants
(31:36):
that live in the town. Therefore, they work in the town,
and if they work in the town, of course they're
going to buy homes in the town. But it's not
as though the Christ Church specifically is buying land. But
it does seem to be this really unique intersection in
surrounding areas like Troy, for example, another town over. There
(31:58):
is now some pushback on this because they really do
feel that these opposing forces are not heading down the
right direction.
Speaker 3 (32:08):
And the distinction you make between the church itself owning
land and the congregants is something that Doug Wilson actually
put a very fine point on because it has been
such a bone of contention. So here's something else that
he posted on his blog. Quote I just mentioned are
people building businesses. This is not something that is controlled
(32:28):
in any way by the church. Our members are an
enterprising bunch. Put another way, I don't own a chunk
of downtown. The only thing I own downtown would be
my truck when I'm there and the books in my office.
So he's really putting a distance between himself and the businesses,
I think, to help quell the argument that it is
(32:51):
some sort of a takeover that's shying to be happening.
Speaker 2 (32:54):
It seems like that is the main goal. And perhaps
unlike sign atology, my loose understanding is christ Church and
its pastor Doug Wilson want to create their own laws
for the town that do not abide by state laws
or frankly even federal laws, and that's a really unusual mission.
(33:18):
And you know, listen, there's these extreme cases of pedophilia accusations,
sexual abuse accusations, violence against women, the notion that they
are grooming women to be submissive to their husbands and
to be air quotes receivers. This is some fundamental stuff
that has undertones of The Handmaid's Tale or one of
(33:42):
those scary shows that I literally can't watch because they
are too scary.
Speaker 3 (33:46):
It's funny you should mention Handmaid's Tale because it seems
like Doug Wilson and or whoever's helping with his pr
they really use opposing arguments within their own arguments. So
here's another thing that he posted. What about the Christian
town part. If such a thing were to happen, it
(34:06):
would happen quietly, with no one really noticing it took shape,
and then one day people would just wake up and
realize that the seal of the city had a church
spire at the center of it. See above. We find
dystopic scenarios of the Handmaid's Tale sort of as repulsive
as you do. He then goes on to say what
they have in mind is something akin to an eighteen
(34:27):
ninety two Supreme Court decision that determined the United States
was a Christian nation. And he ends with saying we
are not looking for a hell hole with Bible verses attached.
He is hearkening back to eighteen ninety two for the
future of Moscow.
Speaker 2 (34:44):
That definitely feels like an odd step backward. I think
we should continue to dig into this because Doug Wilson
as a figure has been quoted as being very impressive
and very charismatic, and that even if you do not
believe a single thing that he say, that he has
a very influential way about him. And what influence does
(35:05):
that have on this case? But again, this is very
uniquely different and kind of an undercurrent that people who
have visited the area. As we've heard, this is really
noticeable in the town too.
Speaker 3 (35:20):
You can feel it.
Speaker 2 (35:21):
It is a cross section that's happening right now that
isn't going anywhere. It seems like it's only going to
get worse.
Speaker 3 (35:34):
More on that next time. For more information on the
case and relevant photos, follow us on Instagram at kat
Underscore Studios. The Idaho Masker is produced by Stephanie Leideger,
Gabriel Castillo, and me Courtney Armstrong. Editing and sound design
by Jeff Toois, Music by Jared Aston. The Idaho Masker
(35:56):
is a production of Kati's Studios and iHeartRadio. For more
podcasts like this, visit the iHeartRadio app, Apple Podcasts, or
wherever you listen to your favorite shows.
Hosts And Creators
Stephanie Lydecker
Courtney Armstrong
Jeff Shane
Popular Podcasts
On Purpose with Jay Shetty
I’m Jay Shetty host of On Purpose the worlds #1 Mental Health podcast and I’m so grateful you found us. I started this podcast 5 years ago to invite you into conversations and workshops that are designed to help make you happier, healthier and more healed. I believe that when you (yes you) feel seen, heard and understood you’re able to deal with relationship struggles, work challenges and life’s ups and downs with more ease and grace. I interview experts, celebrities, thought leaders and athletes so that we can grow our mindset, build better habits and uncover a side of them we’ve never seen before. New episodes every Monday and Friday. Your support means the world to me and I don’t take it for granted — click the follow button and leave a review to help us spread the love with On Purpose. I can’t wait for you to listen to your first or 500th episode!
Stuff You Should Know
If you've ever wanted to know about champagne, satanism, the Stonewall Uprising, chaos theory, LSD, El Nino, true crime and Rosa Parks, then look no further. Josh and Chuck have you covered.
Dateline NBC
Current and classic episodes, featuring compelling true-crime mysteries, powerful documentaries and in-depth investigations. Follow now to get the latest episodes of Dateline NBC completely free, or subscribe to Dateline Premium for ad-free listening and exclusive bonus content: DatelinePremium.com