July 31, 2024 • 26 mins
We unpack the most hotly contested pre-trial hearings to date.
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Speaker 1 (00:03):
It was such a heart wrenching murder that he can't
get a fair trial in that community in.
Speaker 2 (00:10):
The interest of justice. I don't think the families want
to wait. I don't think justice wants to wait.
Speaker 3 (00:23):
This is the Idaho Massacre, a production of KAT Studios
and iHeartRadio, Season two, Episode eight, Change of Venue. Courtney Armstrong,
a producer at KAT Studios, with Stephanie Leidecker and Gabe Castillo.
(00:45):
There have been more than a dozen pre trial hearings
in the state of Idaho versus Brian Cobricker. The trial
had an original start fate of October twenty twenty three,
but nearly a year later, many issues still remain to
be decided, including determining if Laidakh County still has a
viable jury pool.
Speaker 4 (01:05):
New court filings reveal the defense thinks that quote a
fair and impartial jury cannot be found in Laytak County.
They add that enlarging the jury pool will not do
anything to overcome that pervasive prejudicial publicity because Laytak County
does not have a large enough population center to avoid
the bias in the community.
Speaker 3 (01:25):
Setting a trial date and battling over change of venue
are inextricably intertwined. We spoke with many experts to understand
the intricacies of the pretrial hearings. Stephanie asks journalist Connor
Powell what he thought about the change of venue request
on the defense's part.
Speaker 1 (01:44):
This is where the judge and defense prosecution are going
to essentially battle over change of venue, which he wants
to see it moved out of Moscow, Idaho, because their
argument is that he can't get a fair trial there.
It was such a dramatic and just really heart wrenching
murder that he can't get a fair trial in that community.
(02:04):
And the judge might see it that way, they might not.
That's sort of up for discussion. The other issue is
where the trial should happen in when, and it's a
small town. Right where this murder took place and where
the trial is likely to take place is a small community.
There's a school right across the street from the courthouse.
And one of the arguments for pushing this back, in
(02:27):
delaying this is to do it during the summer so
that the media onslaught that's going to happen with this
trial doesn't impact the local community, particularly the students the
kids of that community and.
Speaker 5 (02:40):
Also in the university. So that seemed like a pretty
smart plan. That was initially going to be this summer.
We were thinking July August of twenty twenty four. Now
that it's pushing so far, Look, I get it, he's
going to have to have a trial on the moon
to escape people knowing who he is. This is not
only national news, it's become world news. And changing of
(03:00):
the venue sort of seems like that might just be
a delay process and would really slow things down. Or
if they changed the venue so that it's not one
that's directly across the street from a high school, it
sort of opens up the calendar potentially for them.
Speaker 3 (03:15):
I spoke with Long Crimes True Crime reporter an Jeannette Levy,
who spent a lot of time in Moscow, Idaho, over
the past two years.
Speaker 6 (03:23):
What you have to understand is in Moscow, that is
a town of twenty five thousand. It's a college town.
And when I was there, the wound that this crime
created in that community, the pain, the grief really struck
people and stunned them. When I went to businesses trying
(03:46):
to talk to people about it, they felt like they
were personally wounded by this, It just took such a
toll that the influx of media and this is like
a place that should be happy, and I did. And
you know, this was a small community that took this personally.
And you could tell that in speaking to people there.
(04:07):
They were doing their best to go about life every
day and running their businesses and getting their kids.
Speaker 2 (04:13):
Off to school.
Speaker 6 (04:14):
But this was a horror that unfolded in that town.
And so it was a huge deal when an arrest
was made, and people may or may not have formed
really inflexible if you would opinions about that. You know,
they may have decided this happened and somebody's got to
(04:36):
pay for it. I'm not saying that's exactly what happened,
but it's possible. So I could see how moving it
might probably just be the best thing to do. And
I'm not talking a couple of towns over, I mean
maybe a few counties over. Who knows where they would
move it, but I know that Ann Taylor has suggested
Ada County, which is Boise. It's a bigger population center,
(04:59):
it has a more min or in courthouse Leiita County.
It's a very small courthouse.
Speaker 3 (05:03):
So so for clarity, you mentioned Anne Taylor, and to
remind listeners, Miss Taylor is Brian Coberger's defense attorney, ANGINAE.
Are you able to describe the courthouse and specifically its
proximity to the school. I know that's been a major issue.
Speaker 6 (05:18):
The courthouse is directly across the street from Moscow High School,
directly across the street. I mean, you can't get any
closer than that. And the courthouse is older, it's a
small facility. It's connected to the sheriff's office.
Speaker 7 (05:32):
You know, the.
Speaker 6 (05:33):
County's a county of forty thousand people. That's not very big.
So you know, you've got the cute little downtown area,
the courthouse kind of up the hill from there, and
the sheriff's office and the courthouse. It's a building that
kind of isn't an L shape, and then the high
school is right across the street. So it's very quaint,
it's very cute. It's a small town.
Speaker 3 (05:54):
Ann Taylor has said that summer twenty twenty five maybe
too soon. Then are we looking at summer twenty twenty
six in order to not interfere with high.
Speaker 6 (06:05):
School and college? And they made it sound like, I mean,
the prosecution thinks this is going to be a six
week trial. She thought it would be much longer.
Speaker 3 (06:14):
I think fifteen week was her projection if I remember correctly.
So it's a pretty big disparity.
Speaker 6 (06:21):
I would have to know more about what the prosecution's
thought process is on their case. But six weeks for
a case like this total, especially if you even get
to the mitigation phase, Wow, that's ambitious. Obviously the defense
is going to fight. It sounds like they're going to
(06:42):
put up a fight. They're going to be calling experts.
I'm sure they'll do their best to cross examine witnesses
and do their best to discredit thing, you know, witnesses
through cross examination. But who knows what they have planned.
She's arguing for a change of venue, and you can't
tell me that somebody like me, I'm pouring over this
(07:04):
stuff every time something is filed because that's my job
and I'm interested in it and I need to be
able to convey stuff accurately to the public. But I
don't think maybe your average duror is sitting there monitoring
the Idaho Judicial Cases of Interest website waiting to look
at this, and if they move the trial, you know,
(07:26):
she's got a jury expert that's going to come in
and say that, leta county's biased and they can't have
the trial there. Well, if you're going to move it somewhere,
then you're going to have a bigger jury pool, potentially
a larger pool of people from which to choose. And
the longer this gets drawn out, the more memories will fade.
Speaker 3 (07:46):
But even the change of venue, I mean, that's obviously
Defense Attorney Taylor is trying really hard to get that changed.
But what even is the difference of moving a couple
of towns over in terms of people knowing or not
knowing about this case that is in the news all
the time.
Speaker 6 (08:04):
Normal people are busy. Cell phones have changed everything, of course,
but they're not always on their phones looking at every
little development in a case.
Speaker 3 (08:13):
Data Analyst's Body move In is a super sleuth who
you may know from Netflix is Don't Have with Cats.
She has some additional thoughts on the merit of a
potential change of venue.
Speaker 2 (08:24):
I do think that they're going to move it, though,
I really do, and I think it just makes sense
more logistically than anything else. The tiny, itty bitty little town.
You know, the media is going to be all over this.
People are going to be traveling to try to attend
this trial. Logistically, I don't know that the city or
town of Moscow can handle all the people. And we've
(08:46):
been Courtney, we follow trials and this is what we do, right.
I just don't think in the interest of justice. I
don't think the families want to wait. I don't think
justice wants to wait. I do think it should move
it not necessarily because the jury pool, just for logistical regions.
It's just I just don't think it's going to be
a good thing.
Speaker 3 (09:06):
What you just said is common sense, but it somehow
had not occurred to me.
Speaker 2 (09:09):
Another year for all those families to wait right to
find out what happened to their children and live in limbo.
Especially in capital cases, there's so many pre hearing motions
and things that have to be done. And while preparing
the defense and preparing the you know, the prosecution. I mean,
I think media has taken a unique turn, especially with
(09:33):
your crime reporting. Right. You have people who are independent
I'm using quotes independent journalists right now, who are you know,
their living is on YouTube and social media and they
were you know, they make little press passes for themselves
and whatnot, and they harass people to get information, and
I just can't imagine this trial happening while kids are
(09:57):
at school on recess, playing soci in the field that's
facing the court and possibly being on a YouTube channel.
Speaker 6 (10:06):
Do you know what I mean?
Speaker 3 (10:07):
I would go crazy, and I think you're right that
parents would go crazy.
Speaker 2 (10:14):
Of course, we all want justice, I mean, everybody wants justice.
But imagine living in that town and you have a
thirteen year old child who has to go to school
and wade through all the reporters to get there. I'm
not saying that would happen, but it could, and I
don't think the community of Moscow would like that.
Speaker 8 (10:33):
Now.
Speaker 2 (10:33):
I do think that the people of Moscow do want
justice served by them by their community because this happened
in their community and they want to be the ones
to see it through. Right. I think they're good, hardworking
Americans that believe in the system and want to see
things through. I absolutely believe that. I just don't know
if they're going to be able to be able to
get that done in time for school to be at
(10:55):
a session, and that includes the university too, because the
town is full. It's while the kids are in school.
I think it's going to have to move. Justice moves
so slowly. I just don't believe they're going to be
ready in time. I just don't. I am not a
victim's family or you know, part of the community of Moscow,
so it's easy for me to say the judges should
(11:16):
just move it and get it over with and move
on and get to the issues at hand.
Speaker 3 (11:23):
Let's stop here for a break. We'll be back in
a moment. To get a better understanding of the judicial
practices that come into play with potential change of venue.
I spoke with Kirk NERMI, legal analyst and former defense
attorney for Casey Anthony. Knowing that Coberger's defense attorney Ann
(11:47):
Taylor wants to change a venue, I asked, if the
judge alone makes the final decision.
Speaker 7 (11:54):
Well, ultimately, there's just kind of a default assessment that
the jurisdiction of the court of a particular county I
believe in this case is Letah County is that is
the court that assesses and judge and tries all crimes
that are committed in that county. So that is the
general presumption, if you will, A defense can look to
(12:17):
change venue if they feel as if to another jurisdiction,
another county, district, what have you. However, the state is
set up within the boundaries of that state, and what
they have to do in order to motivate that to
happen is they have to assert facts to substantiate the
idea that their client cannot get a fair trial in
(12:40):
the county or district or what have you, in the
court that they are presently in front of.
Speaker 3 (12:45):
I'm not asking you for statistics, but I guess how
rare is it to have the trial changed out of
the county in which the crime was committed.
Speaker 9 (12:55):
Well, I'm glad you didn't ask for statistics because I
couldn't give you any, But I will say it's rare,
but much more common in a high profile case because
when a case gets so much attention in an area,
and we're really talking about media assassination, be that traditional
media or social media, and how many people.
Speaker 10 (13:17):
Have prejudged the case in a particular area. For example,
small counties have a smaller population of a jury pool
to draw from. Maybe there's a higher percentage of people
in that county that already know about the case, that
sort of thing, So that becomes the defensive job to
(13:38):
demonstrate that bias that would violate the sixth Amendment, and
it becomes incumbent on the judge to make the decision.
The prosecutor in some cases might relent. They might say, yeah,
this is not going to be a county where you
can get a fair trial, but ultimately that decision lies
with the judge.
Speaker 3 (13:58):
After speaking with Kirk, curious if there were any statistics
on change of venue and found a survey put out
by the University of San Diego. The survey analyzed murder
trials from two thy to twenty twenty across all fifty states.
There were many mitigating factors, but the success rate of
change of venue was just twenty three point five percent.
(14:18):
Here Stephen Greenberg, attorney and former prosecutor, elaborates on the
potential outcomes for the change of venue in this case.
Speaker 11 (14:28):
The norm is they're not going to get a change
your venue, and you can always get a jury. By
the way people debate, sometimes they lie because they want
to sit on a jury. You know, we had a
case involving a very important political figure, all headlines. Did
you ever read anything about it? No? Did you see
anything on TV? And of course they did. But you
can always get a jury and if I were the judge,
(14:50):
I would do everything in my power to keep it
from happening. Any judge orth is a resault when want
it happened. Worst case, they'll bring in jurors from another area.
They can always that.
Speaker 3 (15:00):
Oh I didn't know that.
Speaker 11 (15:02):
And by the way, it's not unheard of to go
to a different venue and bring in a jury pool
from the neighboring area. You know, it's always subtle. They
just do subtle things. There's little things that happen during
a trial that can be very harmful or helpful. This
judge is not going to be helpful to a defense,
not at all, and he's going to keep the case.
Speaker 3 (15:23):
I understand how unlikely you think it is for it
to move. But if a trial moves, does the judge
move with it? Is that possible or no?
Speaker 11 (15:35):
Yes, any one of a number of things could happen. First,
the whole thing could be denied because they have enough
to get another pools. The other thing they can do
is the judge stays where the judge is and they
bring in jurors from a different place. Is what I
indicated earlier. The other thing is for the judge himself
or herself to move to a different venue and pack
(15:56):
a jury there. Any one of those three are possible.
Speaker 3 (16:01):
Inside additions, Chris Spargo shared his thoughts on security and
monetary issues involved with the trial's ultimate location. So you
talked about people in the area kind of feeling frustration
about how long this trial will be. Do you know
any other details about that or can you speak to that.
Speaker 8 (16:21):
I heard there are concerns, which makes sense. I mean,
obviously that's another Again, that's another cost to if kids
are in school when that trial's going on, that's another
level of security you're gonna have to get to make sure,
you know, there's no sort of overlap. And I think
that's not something they really want to expose the kids too,
you know, sort of it's a very very very grim trial,
even the details. So I don't think, you know, you
want kids knowing about that. And I mean, I think
there's a general media attention. No one wants your child
(16:41):
to be around this sort of media attention that's going
on with this trial. Like I can't imagine being a
parent knowing that, you know, eighty news trucks are outside
my kids' school while they're you know, that's just not
a way for a kid to live, and that's not
something you want for your child. So I think that's
sort of an understandable thing and they want to push it,
but again, push it or not, so that's probably gonna
be another huge security.
Speaker 11 (16:56):
Costs for them.
Speaker 3 (16:57):
Have you been to the courthouse.
Speaker 8 (17:00):
I'm not. My colleague has been to the courthouse. I
am not much of a traveler. It's nothing grand, and
it's it's which is kind of wild when you think
about it, because of the size of the trial. It
also makes it a big problem though, because of the
amount of power the media companies using and everything. I mean,
it's it's really a dream, you know, this this little
courthouse being surrounded by all these bands and all the
supporters and everything. It's it's kind of chaotic when when
it's these hearing and these are hearings are not even
(17:21):
major hearings right now, so to speak, you know, compared
when the actual trial starts, and even then, I mean,
my colleague said it was wild. How you can barely
get in there's a million people around. It's really chaos.
Speaker 3 (17:31):
Do you have an opinion on if the trial either
should move and or if the judge will decide to
move it.
Speaker 8 (17:38):
I wish the trial would move for the sake of
the residents. I think that they've done enough. I think
they've bared the burden of and they just just get
it out of there for those poor people. Like I mean,
I don't care. I don't think really care about the
jury so much. I you know, I know that's not
really the legal president or know how they decide, but
it just it would just be nice if it wasn't
there for them, Like I just feel so nice for them,
if people just got you know, outldd AS somewhere else.
I like I said before the I don't think you
could put that jury anywhere in the United States, you know,
(18:00):
and get a truly impartial jury who doesn't know anything
about Brian Coburger. I'd be nice to move to another county,
just for like I said, just for the people that
live in Moscow.
Speaker 3 (18:07):
That'd be great.
Speaker 8 (18:08):
But I think it's going to be hard for the
defense to prove that any neighboring county is any more
or less impacted by what's been covered in the media
and let they know about it them than Lotin.
Speaker 3 (18:18):
As of the date of this recording, June twenty seventh,
twenty twenty four. A decision on change of venue has
not been decided. There was a pretrial hearing today where
it was speculated the decision may come down, but that
is not the case.
Speaker 5 (18:32):
Here's Stephanie as the debate over the venue takes place.
We found it interesting that Coburger is housed literally below
the courthouse in the basement. That's where the county jail is,
and he's been there since January fourth, twenty twenty three.
The jail itself is about two thousand square feet and
houses approximately seventeen inmates at any time. So for comparison,
(18:54):
according to US Census data, the average newly built house
in the US measures approximately twenty three hundred square feet,
so the average newly built house is actually bigger than
where Coburger and his fellow inmates are being housed at
this time. NewsNation did a really good job breaking down
a little bit of his life behind bars. We know
(19:15):
that there are about three guards working at any one time,
and when Coburger goes out for exercise for one hour
a day, he's always with guards. There's been a lot
made about him receiving special treatment, specifically the fact that
he has vegan meals or new suits, and a computer
in his own television. According to reports, his meals are
(19:36):
primarily rice and beans and vegetables. He has a computer,
or at least access to one, just like any other inmate.
He can use a thumb drive to look at documents
related to his case, make notes, and then get those
back to his attorney. That's pretty status quo. As for
him having his own television, that's because he's not in
the general population, and it's been noted that the TV
(19:58):
is actually outside of his cell, so he can watch
it between the bars, and according to other inmates who
can sometimes hear what he's listening to or watching, he's
apparently very interested in the coverage of his own case.
Something else interesting about his routine is that he apparently
attends mass at the jail library. That's the only time
(20:19):
he's actually allowed to be with fellow inmates, and he
speaks to a priest. In a Daily Mail exclusive, pastor
Mike Hall, who heads at this special group that sends
ministers into jails, is quoted as saying, we don't tell
folks that we will relieve them of their responsibility of
their crimes end quote. But he does speak to somebody
(20:39):
one on one. Occasionally, outlets have reported that he's been
a model prisoner, even though he sometimes gets taunted by
other inmates while he's walking by. And one other curious thing,
Brian Coberger is apparently getting a lot of attention from women.
There are apparently cohorts of women who are reaching out
to him because they have romantic interest in him.
Speaker 3 (21:04):
Let's stop here for another break. We'll be back in
a moment. Following is a quick conversation that happened between Stephanie,
journalist Connor Powell and Body Moven. This short chat sent
us pretty far down the path on this topic.
Speaker 1 (21:27):
One of the topics that came up was this idea
of people who fall in love or have obsessions with
criminals who are in prison who have been particularly ones
who have been accused of murder. And there was the
phrase that was thrown out was hybristophilia, which is this
idea of sexual attraction in response to somebody who's committed
a heinous crime.
Speaker 5 (21:47):
It just really makes you wonder the why.
Speaker 6 (21:50):
Right.
Speaker 5 (21:50):
This seems to me like there has to be some
sort of unhealed trauma. To never want your partner to
come home at night is you know, kind of a
tell about something probably larger.
Speaker 1 (22:01):
I was amazed as I was doing some digging today
body that there are multiple social media sites dedicated to
the fascination and with people professing their love of Brian Koberger.
Is that something you've come across before in criminal data
research you've done before?
Speaker 2 (22:18):
Yes, I have extensive knowledge on this disorder?
Speaker 1 (22:23):
Is that extensive personal knowledge or just extensive knowledge?
Speaker 3 (22:26):
Personal?
Speaker 2 (22:27):
Okay, personal knowledge. So, as you all know, I was
in that Netflix documentary Don't Have with Katz and the
subject was a murder that happened. You know, Luca Magnata
was the murderer, and I was in the documentary talking
about it and how he was caught and I was
after him, and you know all this right well after
the documentary aired, literally the first one hundred and fifty
(22:51):
emails I got were all from the same person telling
me what a scumbag I was because they're in love
with Luca. And to this day, you know, this documentary
aired in twenty nineteen, the end of twenty nineteen, so
it's been four years. Right to this day, I still
get hate mail from people who are obsessed with Luca
(23:11):
Mgnatta and how dare I, And it's it's absolutely wild.
It gives me the creeps.
Speaker 5 (23:18):
Is that because they don't think that he did it
and that they just feel like he's been wrongfully accused
and he's just cute man behind bars.
Speaker 2 (23:26):
It's a mix. It's a mix of people that are
trying to be like edge lords. There's many reasons people
have this disorder, right, It's there's low self esteem issues,
people believe they can change him. Others just see it
like a little boy that the killer once was and
he wasn't protected and he needs to be nurtured. There's
(23:47):
many different reasons. Not many people think he's innocent.
Speaker 1 (23:51):
I was gonna say part of the arousal, right, part
of the attraction is that he did do it right,
Like that's right kind of what they get off on.
Speaker 2 (23:57):
Yeah, it's it's part. Part of it is this is
a really dangerous person and if I can get them
to love me, I'm one of the people he would
never hurt or you know, I'm protected. There's many different
reasons that people have this, and I think that you know,
the people that have this disorder think that, oh well,
(24:18):
if I love him, he's not going to be a danger.
But there's like a whole subreddit dedicated to the love.
Speaker 1 (24:26):
Yeah, there's sort of two groups on social media of
people who are defending Coburger, saying he didn't do it right.
And then there's this other little subgroup that you see,
which is like they sort of acknowledge, or maybe they
don't fully acknowledge, but they are turned on by what
he did. And you're right, it goes into that he
would never do it to me, and I can change him.
Speaker 2 (24:48):
Yeah, I mean the people who think he's innocent are
not in this group of they call themselves Bribrise. They're
not in this group of Bribebrise. They like photoshop his
images into pictures. They have literal alters with his mug
shots and you know, with the turtle suit on it.
They make like fan cans on Twitter of him like
(25:09):
entering court and it's like in slow motion with like
music playing, and a lot of it too. I think
is the edge lord mentality. Right, I'm gonna piss off
everyone I know because I am patrol. You know, a
lot of it is trolling. They want a reaction, they
want the attention, They want people to be absolutely outraged
(25:30):
by their behavior. It's an internetural, but they do exist
and it is an actual disorder. There's many papers written
on it. I had to go study this because I
was getting a lot of like threats, you know, literal
threats against my own life. But if you look at history,
look at how many women were fascinated with Ted Bundy
and even to this day still are. And the bride
(25:52):
Rice Compare Brian Coberger to Ted Bundy. It's absolutely wild.
Speaker 3 (26:01):
More on that next time. For more information on the
case and relevant photos, follow us on Instagram at kat
Underscore Studios. The Idaho Masker is produced by Stephanie Leideger,
Gabriel Castillo and me Courtney Armstrong. Editing and sound design
by Jeff Toois. Music by Jared Aston. The Idaho Masker
(26:23):
is a production of KT Studios and iHeartRadio. For more
podcasts like this, visit the iHeartRadio app, Apple Podcasts, or
wherever you listen to your favorite shows.
It was such a heart wrenching murder that he can't
get a fair trial in that community in.
Speaker 2 (00:10):
The interest of justice. I don't think the families want
to wait. I don't think justice wants to wait.
Speaker 3 (00:23):
This is the Idaho Massacre, a production of KAT Studios
and iHeartRadio, Season two, Episode eight, Change of Venue. Courtney Armstrong,
a producer at KAT Studios, with Stephanie Leidecker and Gabe Castillo.
(00:45):
There have been more than a dozen pre trial hearings
in the state of Idaho versus Brian Cobricker. The trial
had an original start fate of October twenty twenty three,
but nearly a year later, many issues still remain to
be decided, including determining if Laidakh County still has a
viable jury pool.
Speaker 4 (01:05):
New court filings reveal the defense thinks that quote a
fair and impartial jury cannot be found in Laytak County.
They add that enlarging the jury pool will not do
anything to overcome that pervasive prejudicial publicity because Laytak County
does not have a large enough population center to avoid
the bias in the community.
Speaker 3 (01:25):
Setting a trial date and battling over change of venue
are inextricably intertwined. We spoke with many experts to understand
the intricacies of the pretrial hearings. Stephanie asks journalist Connor
Powell what he thought about the change of venue request
on the defense's part.
Speaker 1 (01:44):
This is where the judge and defense prosecution are going
to essentially battle over change of venue, which he wants
to see it moved out of Moscow, Idaho, because their
argument is that he can't get a fair trial there.
It was such a dramatic and just really heart wrenching
murder that he can't get a fair trial in that community.
(02:04):
And the judge might see it that way, they might not.
That's sort of up for discussion. The other issue is
where the trial should happen in when, and it's a
small town. Right where this murder took place and where
the trial is likely to take place is a small community.
There's a school right across the street from the courthouse.
And one of the arguments for pushing this back, in
(02:27):
delaying this is to do it during the summer so
that the media onslaught that's going to happen with this
trial doesn't impact the local community, particularly the students the
kids of that community and.
Speaker 5 (02:40):
Also in the university. So that seemed like a pretty
smart plan. That was initially going to be this summer.
We were thinking July August of twenty twenty four. Now
that it's pushing so far, Look, I get it, he's
going to have to have a trial on the moon
to escape people knowing who he is. This is not
only national news, it's become world news. And changing of
(03:00):
the venue sort of seems like that might just be
a delay process and would really slow things down. Or
if they changed the venue so that it's not one
that's directly across the street from a high school, it
sort of opens up the calendar potentially for them.
Speaker 3 (03:15):
I spoke with Long Crimes True Crime reporter an Jeannette Levy,
who spent a lot of time in Moscow, Idaho, over
the past two years.
Speaker 6 (03:23):
What you have to understand is in Moscow, that is
a town of twenty five thousand. It's a college town.
And when I was there, the wound that this crime
created in that community, the pain, the grief really struck
people and stunned them. When I went to businesses trying
(03:46):
to talk to people about it, they felt like they
were personally wounded by this, It just took such a
toll that the influx of media and this is like
a place that should be happy, and I did. And
you know, this was a small community that took this personally.
And you could tell that in speaking to people there.
(04:07):
They were doing their best to go about life every
day and running their businesses and getting their kids.
Speaker 2 (04:13):
Off to school.
Speaker 6 (04:14):
But this was a horror that unfolded in that town.
And so it was a huge deal when an arrest
was made, and people may or may not have formed
really inflexible if you would opinions about that. You know,
they may have decided this happened and somebody's got to
(04:36):
pay for it. I'm not saying that's exactly what happened,
but it's possible. So I could see how moving it
might probably just be the best thing to do. And
I'm not talking a couple of towns over, I mean
maybe a few counties over. Who knows where they would
move it, but I know that Ann Taylor has suggested
Ada County, which is Boise. It's a bigger population center,
(04:59):
it has a more min or in courthouse Leiita County.
It's a very small courthouse.
Speaker 3 (05:03):
So so for clarity, you mentioned Anne Taylor, and to
remind listeners, Miss Taylor is Brian Coberger's defense attorney, ANGINAE.
Are you able to describe the courthouse and specifically its
proximity to the school. I know that's been a major issue.
Speaker 6 (05:18):
The courthouse is directly across the street from Moscow High School,
directly across the street. I mean, you can't get any
closer than that. And the courthouse is older, it's a
small facility. It's connected to the sheriff's office.
Speaker 7 (05:32):
You know, the.
Speaker 6 (05:33):
County's a county of forty thousand people. That's not very big.
So you know, you've got the cute little downtown area,
the courthouse kind of up the hill from there, and
the sheriff's office and the courthouse. It's a building that
kind of isn't an L shape, and then the high
school is right across the street. So it's very quaint,
it's very cute. It's a small town.
Speaker 3 (05:54):
Ann Taylor has said that summer twenty twenty five maybe
too soon. Then are we looking at summer twenty twenty
six in order to not interfere with high.
Speaker 6 (06:05):
School and college? And they made it sound like, I mean,
the prosecution thinks this is going to be a six
week trial. She thought it would be much longer.
Speaker 3 (06:14):
I think fifteen week was her projection if I remember correctly.
So it's a pretty big disparity.
Speaker 6 (06:21):
I would have to know more about what the prosecution's
thought process is on their case. But six weeks for
a case like this total, especially if you even get
to the mitigation phase, Wow, that's ambitious. Obviously the defense
is going to fight. It sounds like they're going to
(06:42):
put up a fight. They're going to be calling experts.
I'm sure they'll do their best to cross examine witnesses
and do their best to discredit thing, you know, witnesses
through cross examination. But who knows what they have planned.
She's arguing for a change of venue, and you can't
tell me that somebody like me, I'm pouring over this
(07:04):
stuff every time something is filed because that's my job
and I'm interested in it and I need to be
able to convey stuff accurately to the public. But I
don't think maybe your average duror is sitting there monitoring
the Idaho Judicial Cases of Interest website waiting to look
at this, and if they move the trial, you know,
(07:26):
she's got a jury expert that's going to come in
and say that, leta county's biased and they can't have
the trial there. Well, if you're going to move it somewhere,
then you're going to have a bigger jury pool, potentially
a larger pool of people from which to choose. And
the longer this gets drawn out, the more memories will fade.
Speaker 3 (07:46):
But even the change of venue, I mean, that's obviously
Defense Attorney Taylor is trying really hard to get that changed.
But what even is the difference of moving a couple
of towns over in terms of people knowing or not
knowing about this case that is in the news all
the time.
Speaker 6 (08:04):
Normal people are busy. Cell phones have changed everything, of course,
but they're not always on their phones looking at every
little development in a case.
Speaker 3 (08:13):
Data Analyst's Body move In is a super sleuth who
you may know from Netflix is Don't Have with Cats.
She has some additional thoughts on the merit of a
potential change of venue.
Speaker 2 (08:24):
I do think that they're going to move it, though,
I really do, and I think it just makes sense
more logistically than anything else. The tiny, itty bitty little town.
You know, the media is going to be all over this.
People are going to be traveling to try to attend
this trial. Logistically, I don't know that the city or
town of Moscow can handle all the people. And we've
(08:46):
been Courtney, we follow trials and this is what we do, right.
I just don't think in the interest of justice. I
don't think the families want to wait. I don't think
justice wants to wait. I do think it should move
it not necessarily because the jury pool, just for logistical regions.
It's just I just don't think it's going to be
a good thing.
Speaker 3 (09:06):
What you just said is common sense, but it somehow
had not occurred to me.
Speaker 2 (09:09):
Another year for all those families to wait right to
find out what happened to their children and live in limbo.
Especially in capital cases, there's so many pre hearing motions
and things that have to be done. And while preparing
the defense and preparing the you know, the prosecution. I mean,
I think media has taken a unique turn, especially with
(09:33):
your crime reporting. Right. You have people who are independent
I'm using quotes independent journalists right now, who are you know,
their living is on YouTube and social media and they
were you know, they make little press passes for themselves
and whatnot, and they harass people to get information, and
I just can't imagine this trial happening while kids are
(09:57):
at school on recess, playing soci in the field that's
facing the court and possibly being on a YouTube channel.
Speaker 6 (10:06):
Do you know what I mean?
Speaker 3 (10:07):
I would go crazy, and I think you're right that
parents would go crazy.
Speaker 2 (10:14):
Of course, we all want justice, I mean, everybody wants justice.
But imagine living in that town and you have a
thirteen year old child who has to go to school
and wade through all the reporters to get there. I'm
not saying that would happen, but it could, and I
don't think the community of Moscow would like that.
Speaker 8 (10:33):
Now.
Speaker 2 (10:33):
I do think that the people of Moscow do want
justice served by them by their community because this happened
in their community and they want to be the ones
to see it through. Right. I think they're good, hardworking
Americans that believe in the system and want to see
things through. I absolutely believe that. I just don't know
if they're going to be able to be able to
get that done in time for school to be at
(10:55):
a session, and that includes the university too, because the
town is full. It's while the kids are in school.
I think it's going to have to move. Justice moves
so slowly. I just don't believe they're going to be
ready in time. I just don't. I am not a
victim's family or you know, part of the community of Moscow,
so it's easy for me to say the judges should
(11:16):
just move it and get it over with and move
on and get to the issues at hand.
Speaker 3 (11:23):
Let's stop here for a break. We'll be back in
a moment. To get a better understanding of the judicial
practices that come into play with potential change of venue.
I spoke with Kirk NERMI, legal analyst and former defense
attorney for Casey Anthony. Knowing that Coberger's defense attorney Ann
(11:47):
Taylor wants to change a venue, I asked, if the
judge alone makes the final decision.
Speaker 7 (11:54):
Well, ultimately, there's just kind of a default assessment that
the jurisdiction of the court of a particular county I
believe in this case is Letah County is that is
the court that assesses and judge and tries all crimes
that are committed in that county. So that is the
general presumption, if you will, A defense can look to
(12:17):
change venue if they feel as if to another jurisdiction,
another county, district, what have you. However, the state is
set up within the boundaries of that state, and what
they have to do in order to motivate that to
happen is they have to assert facts to substantiate the
idea that their client cannot get a fair trial in
(12:40):
the county or district or what have you, in the
court that they are presently in front of.
Speaker 3 (12:45):
I'm not asking you for statistics, but I guess how
rare is it to have the trial changed out of
the county in which the crime was committed.
Speaker 9 (12:55):
Well, I'm glad you didn't ask for statistics because I
couldn't give you any, But I will say it's rare,
but much more common in a high profile case because
when a case gets so much attention in an area,
and we're really talking about media assassination, be that traditional
media or social media, and how many people.
Speaker 10 (13:17):
Have prejudged the case in a particular area. For example,
small counties have a smaller population of a jury pool
to draw from. Maybe there's a higher percentage of people
in that county that already know about the case, that
sort of thing, So that becomes the defensive job to
(13:38):
demonstrate that bias that would violate the sixth Amendment, and
it becomes incumbent on the judge to make the decision.
The prosecutor in some cases might relent. They might say, yeah,
this is not going to be a county where you
can get a fair trial, but ultimately that decision lies
with the judge.
Speaker 3 (13:58):
After speaking with Kirk, curious if there were any statistics
on change of venue and found a survey put out
by the University of San Diego. The survey analyzed murder
trials from two thy to twenty twenty across all fifty states.
There were many mitigating factors, but the success rate of
change of venue was just twenty three point five percent.
(14:18):
Here Stephen Greenberg, attorney and former prosecutor, elaborates on the
potential outcomes for the change of venue in this case.
Speaker 11 (14:28):
The norm is they're not going to get a change
your venue, and you can always get a jury. By
the way people debate, sometimes they lie because they want
to sit on a jury. You know, we had a
case involving a very important political figure, all headlines. Did
you ever read anything about it? No? Did you see
anything on TV? And of course they did. But you
can always get a jury and if I were the judge,
(14:50):
I would do everything in my power to keep it
from happening. Any judge orth is a resault when want
it happened. Worst case, they'll bring in jurors from another area.
They can always that.
Speaker 3 (15:00):
Oh I didn't know that.
Speaker 11 (15:02):
And by the way, it's not unheard of to go
to a different venue and bring in a jury pool
from the neighboring area. You know, it's always subtle. They
just do subtle things. There's little things that happen during
a trial that can be very harmful or helpful. This
judge is not going to be helpful to a defense,
not at all, and he's going to keep the case.
Speaker 3 (15:23):
I understand how unlikely you think it is for it
to move. But if a trial moves, does the judge
move with it? Is that possible or no?
Speaker 11 (15:35):
Yes, any one of a number of things could happen. First,
the whole thing could be denied because they have enough
to get another pools. The other thing they can do
is the judge stays where the judge is and they
bring in jurors from a different place. Is what I
indicated earlier. The other thing is for the judge himself
or herself to move to a different venue and pack
(15:56):
a jury there. Any one of those three are possible.
Speaker 3 (16:01):
Inside additions, Chris Spargo shared his thoughts on security and
monetary issues involved with the trial's ultimate location. So you
talked about people in the area kind of feeling frustration
about how long this trial will be. Do you know
any other details about that or can you speak to that.
Speaker 8 (16:21):
I heard there are concerns, which makes sense. I mean,
obviously that's another Again, that's another cost to if kids
are in school when that trial's going on, that's another
level of security you're gonna have to get to make sure,
you know, there's no sort of overlap. And I think
that's not something they really want to expose the kids too,
you know, sort of it's a very very very grim trial,
even the details. So I don't think, you know, you
want kids knowing about that. And I mean, I think
there's a general media attention. No one wants your child
(16:41):
to be around this sort of media attention that's going
on with this trial. Like I can't imagine being a
parent knowing that, you know, eighty news trucks are outside
my kids' school while they're you know, that's just not
a way for a kid to live, and that's not
something you want for your child. So I think that's
sort of an understandable thing and they want to push it,
but again, push it or not, so that's probably gonna
be another huge security.
Speaker 11 (16:56):
Costs for them.
Speaker 3 (16:57):
Have you been to the courthouse.
Speaker 8 (17:00):
I'm not. My colleague has been to the courthouse. I
am not much of a traveler. It's nothing grand, and
it's it's which is kind of wild when you think
about it, because of the size of the trial. It
also makes it a big problem though, because of the
amount of power the media companies using and everything. I mean,
it's it's really a dream, you know, this this little
courthouse being surrounded by all these bands and all the
supporters and everything. It's it's kind of chaotic when when
it's these hearing and these are hearings are not even
(17:21):
major hearings right now, so to speak, you know, compared
when the actual trial starts, and even then, I mean,
my colleague said it was wild. How you can barely
get in there's a million people around. It's really chaos.
Speaker 3 (17:31):
Do you have an opinion on if the trial either
should move and or if the judge will decide to
move it.
Speaker 8 (17:38):
I wish the trial would move for the sake of
the residents. I think that they've done enough. I think
they've bared the burden of and they just just get
it out of there for those poor people. Like I mean,
I don't care. I don't think really care about the
jury so much. I you know, I know that's not
really the legal president or know how they decide, but
it just it would just be nice if it wasn't
there for them, Like I just feel so nice for them,
if people just got you know, outldd AS somewhere else.
I like I said before the I don't think you
could put that jury anywhere in the United States, you know,
(18:00):
and get a truly impartial jury who doesn't know anything
about Brian Coburger. I'd be nice to move to another county,
just for like I said, just for the people that
live in Moscow.
Speaker 3 (18:07):
That'd be great.
Speaker 8 (18:08):
But I think it's going to be hard for the
defense to prove that any neighboring county is any more
or less impacted by what's been covered in the media
and let they know about it them than Lotin.
Speaker 3 (18:18):
As of the date of this recording, June twenty seventh,
twenty twenty four. A decision on change of venue has
not been decided. There was a pretrial hearing today where
it was speculated the decision may come down, but that
is not the case.
Speaker 5 (18:32):
Here's Stephanie as the debate over the venue takes place.
We found it interesting that Coburger is housed literally below
the courthouse in the basement. That's where the county jail is,
and he's been there since January fourth, twenty twenty three.
The jail itself is about two thousand square feet and
houses approximately seventeen inmates at any time. So for comparison,
(18:54):
according to US Census data, the average newly built house
in the US measures approximately twenty three hundred square feet,
so the average newly built house is actually bigger than
where Coburger and his fellow inmates are being housed at
this time. NewsNation did a really good job breaking down
a little bit of his life behind bars. We know
(19:15):
that there are about three guards working at any one time,
and when Coburger goes out for exercise for one hour
a day, he's always with guards. There's been a lot
made about him receiving special treatment, specifically the fact that
he has vegan meals or new suits, and a computer
in his own television. According to reports, his meals are
(19:36):
primarily rice and beans and vegetables. He has a computer,
or at least access to one, just like any other inmate.
He can use a thumb drive to look at documents
related to his case, make notes, and then get those
back to his attorney. That's pretty status quo. As for
him having his own television, that's because he's not in
the general population, and it's been noted that the TV
(19:58):
is actually outside of his cell, so he can watch
it between the bars, and according to other inmates who
can sometimes hear what he's listening to or watching, he's
apparently very interested in the coverage of his own case.
Something else interesting about his routine is that he apparently
attends mass at the jail library. That's the only time
(20:19):
he's actually allowed to be with fellow inmates, and he
speaks to a priest. In a Daily Mail exclusive, pastor
Mike Hall, who heads at this special group that sends
ministers into jails, is quoted as saying, we don't tell
folks that we will relieve them of their responsibility of
their crimes end quote. But he does speak to somebody
(20:39):
one on one. Occasionally, outlets have reported that he's been
a model prisoner, even though he sometimes gets taunted by
other inmates while he's walking by. And one other curious thing,
Brian Coberger is apparently getting a lot of attention from women.
There are apparently cohorts of women who are reaching out
to him because they have romantic interest in him.
Speaker 3 (21:04):
Let's stop here for another break. We'll be back in
a moment. Following is a quick conversation that happened between Stephanie,
journalist Connor Powell and Body Moven. This short chat sent
us pretty far down the path on this topic.
Speaker 1 (21:27):
One of the topics that came up was this idea
of people who fall in love or have obsessions with
criminals who are in prison who have been particularly ones
who have been accused of murder. And there was the
phrase that was thrown out was hybristophilia, which is this
idea of sexual attraction in response to somebody who's committed
a heinous crime.
Speaker 5 (21:47):
It just really makes you wonder the why.
Speaker 6 (21:50):
Right.
Speaker 5 (21:50):
This seems to me like there has to be some
sort of unhealed trauma. To never want your partner to
come home at night is you know, kind of a
tell about something probably larger.
Speaker 1 (22:01):
I was amazed as I was doing some digging today
body that there are multiple social media sites dedicated to
the fascination and with people professing their love of Brian Koberger.
Is that something you've come across before in criminal data
research you've done before?
Speaker 2 (22:18):
Yes, I have extensive knowledge on this disorder?
Speaker 1 (22:23):
Is that extensive personal knowledge or just extensive knowledge?
Speaker 3 (22:26):
Personal?
Speaker 2 (22:27):
Okay, personal knowledge. So, as you all know, I was
in that Netflix documentary Don't Have with Katz and the
subject was a murder that happened. You know, Luca Magnata
was the murderer, and I was in the documentary talking
about it and how he was caught and I was
after him, and you know all this right well after
the documentary aired, literally the first one hundred and fifty
(22:51):
emails I got were all from the same person telling
me what a scumbag I was because they're in love
with Luca. And to this day, you know, this documentary
aired in twenty nineteen, the end of twenty nineteen, so
it's been four years. Right to this day, I still
get hate mail from people who are obsessed with Luca
(23:11):
Mgnatta and how dare I, And it's it's absolutely wild.
It gives me the creeps.
Speaker 5 (23:18):
Is that because they don't think that he did it
and that they just feel like he's been wrongfully accused
and he's just cute man behind bars.
Speaker 2 (23:26):
It's a mix. It's a mix of people that are
trying to be like edge lords. There's many reasons people
have this disorder, right, It's there's low self esteem issues,
people believe they can change him. Others just see it
like a little boy that the killer once was and
he wasn't protected and he needs to be nurtured. There's
(23:47):
many different reasons. Not many people think he's innocent.
Speaker 1 (23:51):
I was gonna say part of the arousal, right, part
of the attraction is that he did do it right,
Like that's right kind of what they get off on.
Speaker 2 (23:57):
Yeah, it's it's part. Part of it is this is
a really dangerous person and if I can get them
to love me, I'm one of the people he would
never hurt or you know, I'm protected. There's many different
reasons that people have this, and I think that you know,
the people that have this disorder think that, oh well,
(24:18):
if I love him, he's not going to be a danger.
But there's like a whole subreddit dedicated to the love.
Speaker 1 (24:26):
Yeah, there's sort of two groups on social media of
people who are defending Coburger, saying he didn't do it right.
And then there's this other little subgroup that you see,
which is like they sort of acknowledge, or maybe they
don't fully acknowledge, but they are turned on by what
he did. And you're right, it goes into that he
would never do it to me, and I can change him.
Speaker 2 (24:48):
Yeah, I mean the people who think he's innocent are
not in this group of they call themselves Bribrise. They're
not in this group of Bribebrise. They like photoshop his
images into pictures. They have literal alters with his mug
shots and you know, with the turtle suit on it.
They make like fan cans on Twitter of him like
(25:09):
entering court and it's like in slow motion with like
music playing, and a lot of it too. I think
is the edge lord mentality. Right, I'm gonna piss off
everyone I know because I am patrol. You know, a
lot of it is trolling. They want a reaction, they
want the attention, They want people to be absolutely outraged
(25:30):
by their behavior. It's an internetural, but they do exist
and it is an actual disorder. There's many papers written
on it. I had to go study this because I
was getting a lot of like threats, you know, literal
threats against my own life. But if you look at history,
look at how many women were fascinated with Ted Bundy
and even to this day still are. And the bride
(25:52):
Rice Compare Brian Coberger to Ted Bundy. It's absolutely wild.
Speaker 3 (26:01):
More on that next time. For more information on the
case and relevant photos, follow us on Instagram at kat
Underscore Studios. The Idaho Masker is produced by Stephanie Leideger,
Gabriel Castillo and me Courtney Armstrong. Editing and sound design
by Jeff Toois. Music by Jared Aston. The Idaho Masker
(26:23):
is a production of KT Studios and iHeartRadio. For more
podcasts like this, visit the iHeartRadio app, Apple Podcasts, or
wherever you listen to your favorite shows.
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