March 29, 2023 • 31 mins
George Wagner IV’s bombshell testimony continues. Will we finally uncover where the truth lies?
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Episode Transcript
Available transcripts are automatically generated. Complete accuracy is not guaranteed.
Speaker 1 (00:05):
His mother's saying that George said I'll take the fall
for it, which he says he never said.
Speaker 2 (00:11):
His account of his relationship with Hannahmee Rodin and according
to George, they were very close and they were dear friends. Again,
is this just an attempt to show him as a
vulnerable human being or is this just a show?
Speaker 3 (00:29):
I don't see how they could ever believe something like that,
because Hannah, I'm Frankie and Christenior and their family would
never do anything to a child.
Speaker 1 (00:37):
It now becomes a case of who do you believe?
Angela and Jake and all of the circumstantial evidence for George.
Speaker 4 (00:50):
Welcome to the Pipon Massacre Season four, Episode twenty two,
George Wagner takes the stand Part two. I'm Courtney Armstrong,
a television producer at Kat's Studios with Stephanie Leidecker and
Jeff Shane. It's important to note that George Wagner has
pleaded not guilty and has maintained he did not kill anyone.
(01:11):
His father, Billy Wagner, whose trial is upcoming, has also
pleaded not guilty to all charges. Last week, we left
off with George Wagner testifying about a physical altercation he
had with his father Billy. We pick up with a
continuation of George's testimony about the aftermath of the confrontation.
As the toxic environment at the Wagner home grew, Georg
(01:33):
said his father, Billy Wagner, moved out.
Speaker 3 (01:36):
Explain his he stayed with my grandparents.
Speaker 5 (01:41):
Yes, do you know why?
Speaker 3 (01:44):
Multiple reasons. One he couldn't stand being around my mother anymore,
and to my grandfather was bedridden and couldn't.
Speaker 6 (01:51):
Gall abny So I understand who records his father was
spending a lot of time at the Flying.
Speaker 5 (01:58):
W helping with his father's care.
Speaker 3 (02:00):
Yes.
Speaker 6 (02:01):
Also at the same time, what was the relationship between
him and the mom?
Speaker 3 (02:06):
It basically went to they might as well just called
it friends after a divorce, even though they weren't divorced.
Speaker 4 (02:12):
As his parents' marriage was falling apart, George began to
date Tabitha Clater. When their relationship ended, George said his
brother Jake's girlfriend, Hannah Mae Rodin, played matchmaker. She was
the one who got Tabitha and George back together.
Speaker 5 (02:26):
Yeah, we've heard a lot about Jake and Hannah's relationship.
Describe your relationship with.
Speaker 3 (02:32):
Hand I looked a hand as a baby sister.
Speaker 5 (02:35):
What do you mean by that?
Speaker 3 (02:38):
My brother might be biologically my brother, but we never
acted like brothers. Hannah acted like a baby sister to me,
and my uncle Chris acted like a brother to me.
Would we go fishing together, four wheel and fix buck
eyes during the holidays, tell dirty jokes back and forth,
talk to each other about what was father and each other?
Speaker 5 (03:00):
How else would you describe your relationship.
Speaker 3 (03:03):
We'd sit around, tell dirty jokes and stuff, and I'd
put beer and stuff and different containers so Jake wouldn't
know she was drinking.
Speaker 6 (03:12):
Okay, And what did Jake think of your relationship?
Speaker 3 (03:17):
He I don't think he really liked it. He or
I was too close to her?
Speaker 6 (03:21):
And were you anything ever more than brother little sister?
There's quite a bit any age differences.
Speaker 3 (03:31):
Think him five and a half years, maybe six?
Speaker 5 (03:35):
And would you do other activities together?
Speaker 3 (03:38):
We sit around, tell dirty jokes with each other. And
if Hannah was having an emotional day, she talked to
me about it, or if I was having an emotional day,
I talked to her about it.
Speaker 6 (03:49):
And at this time, you're kind of a big fellow, right, yes?
Is that something you would ever talk to him.
Speaker 3 (03:56):
That's kind of like a two way street with us.
What do you mean she were about her weight, I
worried about mind, and so what would you do? Sit
there and talk to each other about what possible? Bill
is at least weight.
Speaker 4 (04:10):
After being reunited by Hanname Roden, George Wagner and Tabitha
were married in twenty twelve. George described a difficult.
Speaker 5 (04:17):
Marriage and did Tabby abby medical other issue?
Speaker 3 (04:24):
She had really bad fits?
Speaker 5 (04:26):
What do you mean?
Speaker 3 (04:28):
She would freak out and yell and scream, and she
would just rock back and forth and cry on average
two or three times a week. And so what would
you do at that point in time? Yeah, just try
and calm her down. Usually usually if I'd just give
her a hug, she'd calm down. But do you know
she was on any medications she's supposed to.
Speaker 5 (04:49):
Be did she take? How did that affect your li.
Speaker 3 (04:56):
We had a lot of really good days until she
had her fits.
Speaker 5 (05:00):
And so you continued on with your relationship, yes, and
so you decided to have a family, is that right? Yes?
Speaker 3 (05:08):
We tried for over a year to have our son,
and finally she got pregnant with him. How did that
make it suit the best moment in my.
Speaker 4 (05:16):
Life, but that happiness was short lived.
Speaker 3 (05:19):
She ended up telling me she was grewing her best
friends then, So what was your action?
Speaker 5 (05:24):
Your reaction?
Speaker 3 (05:27):
I mean, it's kind of heartbreaking in a way, but
she swore that the baby was mine and we went
on with it.
Speaker 4 (05:36):
A DNA test proved the child was George's, but the
damage to the relationship was significant.
Speaker 3 (05:42):
When he was born, I ended up getting a DNA
test to make sure he was mine. But while we
were in the hospital, it was driving me nuts with
everything that she had done, and I tried to leave her.
At that point, she begged and cried and pleaded for
me not to leave her, saying she couldn't raise a
kid on her own.
Speaker 5 (06:02):
So what did you do?
Speaker 3 (06:03):
I ended up caving and stayed with her.
Speaker 4 (06:07):
George Wagner said between his own families intense fighting and
Tabitha's fits that he often wanted to run away, but
because he relied on his mother and not Tabitha to
take care of his son, George didn't.
Speaker 3 (06:19):
And who had primary responsible who took care of him
the most? Me and my mother?
Speaker 5 (06:26):
What about ted?
Speaker 3 (06:27):
When she was around somebody else? She had a habit
of always getting hurt when he was around her. She
bring him out of the bathroom and give him a bath,
you'd have a new knot on his head. Or she
shoved his hand in some hot vegetables once and another time.
She might have tried to catch him, but I think
she pushed him off the picnic tables. What looked like
to me. Do you think him to find that?
Speaker 5 (06:50):
Well? Do you think she was purposely harming him?
Speaker 3 (06:54):
I can't say on any of them, other than the vegetables,
and she did that on purpose?
Speaker 5 (06:58):
What happened?
Speaker 3 (07:00):
He kept trying to reach for him, and she shoved
his hand to them when they were too hot and
held it there until it burned him.
Speaker 5 (07:06):
Were there.
Speaker 3 (07:07):
That's just what she said she did.
Speaker 5 (07:10):
So what was your reaction.
Speaker 3 (07:12):
I didn't trust her to make sure he didn't get hurt.
Even her own mother said she couldn't handle raising the child.
Speaker 4 (07:22):
The situation at home with Tabitha only continued to unravel.
Speaker 3 (07:27):
I had come in from working and my kid was
sitting on the counter. He was a couple months old,
maybe before the house right after the house barn, and
I couldn't find Tabby anywhere, and she was locked in
the bathroom. After I got the door opened, she was
sitting in the bathroom in a pull of her own blood.
(07:49):
She was trying to kill herself.
Speaker 5 (07:51):
How was she doing?
Speaker 3 (07:52):
She had a pair of scissors hacking away at herself.
Speaker 5 (07:55):
What did you do?
Speaker 3 (07:56):
I took the scissors from her and bandaged her wrist up.
Tried to get her to go to the hospital and
she refused to say and they put her on a sideboard,
and I tried to get her to just let me
and her move to Alaska at.
Speaker 5 (08:07):
That point, so what did you actually do?
Speaker 3 (08:09):
I put her in the truck and was going out
the driveway try and get her to go to the hospital.
Speaker 5 (08:15):
Did you have any intensions of moving at that point?
Speaker 3 (08:17):
Yes, I was going to move her to Alaska because
she said she couldn't deal with my mother anymore.
Speaker 5 (08:22):
Why didn't you go to.
Speaker 3 (08:24):
She said, we had no money and didn't have no
way to get there, and it we'd be better off
to stay there where we had the roof over our head.
Speaker 5 (08:31):
And so you agreed that, Yes, I didn't you to do.
Speaker 3 (08:35):
I didn't want to take the chance of being broke
with no roof over my head, and I didn't never
have the financials backing to do what I wanted to do.
Speaker 5 (08:45):
Do you have any regrets over that?
Speaker 3 (08:46):
Yes? I do.
Speaker 4 (08:50):
During one of Tabitha's quote fits, George Wagner testified that
she hurt their son while changing his diaper. It's important
to note that Tabitha Clayter deny any abuse towards her son.
Speaker 3 (09:03):
Tabby was in my room changing his diaper and he
was wailing, which for some reason, she can't change the
diapers out of whaling, and I went to find out
what was wrong with him. So she was kind of
like holding him down, telling him to quit kicking and stuff,
and being I think overly pushy with him. So I
told her to calm down, quit yelling out, even I'll
do it, and she got mad and tried to swing
(09:24):
around and bumped his head off the wall. So I
took from Tabby and gave him the Hannah. After that,
Tabby got mad and stormed out of the house and
went out on the patio, and then I went out
try and calm her down, and she was doing her
normal fits, yelling and screaming and hollering. And about that time,
my mother came home.
Speaker 5 (09:43):
Because your mother wasn't there, So your mother came home.
Speaker 3 (09:48):
She tried to put herself in the middle of our argument,
and I told her it was not her business, and
she went in the house after I yelled out her.
A couple of times after that, I I calm and
ta you down. Usually I can get her to calm down.
Sometimes a huggle work, but not generally. I tried to
hug her and she bit me. And after she bit me,
(10:09):
she hit me with a board and took off out
through the driveway. So I said to hell with it
and went in the house.
Speaker 4 (10:17):
After a few hours of looking, georgeaid he found Tabitha
at a truck stop several miles away. Their relationship continued
to deteriorate and ended when he found out Tabitha was
still in her relationship with her friend's father.
Speaker 3 (10:31):
After six weeks, I found out that she wasn't trying
to fix the things. She was still screwing her best
friend's dad, which was from the beginning that I talked about,
and I went to her house in the middle of
the night to tell her young, I'm done.
Speaker 5 (10:43):
With it, really, what did you do?
Speaker 3 (10:45):
As a result, after that, we got divorced.
Speaker 4 (10:51):
Here's Jeff and Stephanie.
Speaker 7 (10:53):
Without physical evidence, this case is built on a lot
of emotion, and so I think what George Wadener and
his attorneys are trying to do is paint a human
picture of George Wagner. You know, they've seen the jury
has heard a lot of horrible things about George and
his family, and so to hear something a little more
vulnerable and makes them sound more sensitive.
Speaker 5 (11:12):
I think they're thinking, can't hurt.
Speaker 2 (11:17):
The one detail that I heard was his account of
his relationship with hannahme Rodin, And according to George, they
were very close and they were dear friends, and that
they both were very self conscious about their weight and
they would talk about that and discuss that. Again, is
this just an attempt to show him as a vulnerable
human being or is this just a show.
Speaker 4 (11:43):
We're going to take a break. We'll be back in
a moment. After a brief lunch break, George Wagner returned
to the stand and calmly continued to distance himself from
his own family. After making new hunting friends, George said
he made up his mind to leave his family's criminal life.
Speaker 3 (12:07):
James became a really close friend of mine. I kind
of looked at Rick as a second father figure.
Speaker 5 (12:13):
Why do you say Rick was a second fun.
Speaker 3 (12:15):
He always gave me a lot of advice growing up.
Speaker 5 (12:17):
Was that advice different than what you'd received her?
Speaker 3 (12:21):
Yes? Explain it, God, He basically told me not to
continue down the road I was going doing the stuff
that my father did.
Speaker 5 (12:29):
And did you take that advice to her?
Speaker 3 (12:32):
It took a long time to get it completely out
of my system, but yes, Well.
Speaker 5 (12:36):
When did you start taking his advice to her?
Speaker 3 (12:39):
Around the time that me and Tabby got married?
Speaker 5 (12:42):
And you talked earlier about when you and Tabby got
married and you'd like to drink and have a good
time down at Big Bear. Yes, once your son was born,
did that change?
Speaker 3 (12:55):
I gave all my party in days up increasingly?
Speaker 4 (12:59):
George said he spent time with Rick and James hunting
a lot. This also angered his mother Angela.
Speaker 5 (13:04):
And how did that affect yours?
Speaker 3 (13:06):
It was always a fighting argument about me spending time
with them and her want me to stay and do
everything she wanted on the farm.
Speaker 5 (13:14):
So you talked to earlier about how mister Rogan was
giving you advice? Yes? And did that ever? Did his
advice ever? Think him?
Speaker 3 (13:23):
And one point in time, yes, he basically tried to
steer me away from where my father was leading me.
Explain what you mean that it was going to end
up badly one day with the theft and the fuel
and the loads, and I'd always have to look over my.
Speaker 5 (13:36):
Shoulder and all right, So what did you do?
Speaker 3 (13:40):
Eventually? I quit?
Speaker 5 (13:42):
Quit?
Speaker 3 (13:42):
What everything my dad taught me about?
Speaker 5 (13:45):
How old were you when that was late twenty fourteen?
Late twenty fourteen.
Speaker 4 (13:50):
Yes, George said, as he looked to change his own
life around, Hannah Roden became more of a present to him,
and that he considered her a close family member having Hannah.
Speaker 3 (14:00):
Round, Yes, she was like a baby sister.
Speaker 5 (14:06):
What was her relationship with your father?
Speaker 3 (14:11):
Her and dad was all your goofing off with each other?
Speaker 5 (14:14):
How about Hannah and your mother?
Speaker 3 (14:17):
My mother and Hannah used to do a lot of
stuff together. They bake all the time, cook all the time.
She followed her around like a love sick puppy dog.
Speaker 5 (14:25):
Basically, you thought they had a good relationship. Yes, Did
you ever know all the time when the relationship soured in.
Speaker 3 (14:33):
Any way between my mom and Hannah?
Speaker 5 (14:36):
Yes?
Speaker 3 (14:36):
Not really.
Speaker 5 (14:38):
What about between her and Jake.
Speaker 3 (14:41):
Got to where they bought and argued a lot.
Speaker 5 (14:45):
Did there come a time when they separated?
Speaker 3 (14:47):
Yes, my brother and Hannah daylight and dark to each other.
Speaker 5 (14:51):
What do you mean?
Speaker 3 (14:52):
I didn't think she'd ever leave him. But they also
didn't get along because Hannah wanted to do her things
and Jake didn't want.
Speaker 5 (14:57):
To What kind of things did Hannah want to do?
Speaker 3 (15:00):
Hang out with her friends, do normal teenage stuff. She
kind of missed out of being a teenager when she
got with Jake.
Speaker 8 (15:09):
Major developments today in Pike County, George Wagner the fourth
took to the stand in his own murder trial. Wagner
the Fourth is claiming he never took part in or
had any knowledge of the killings of the Rodent family.
Speaker 4 (15:22):
After hours of testimony detailing the toxic Wagner family dynamics
and his own frustrations with his family, defense attorney John
Parker turned to the April twenty sixteen murders. When asked
by his lawyer if he knew where his family quote
stashed the murder weapons, George pleaded ignorance.
Speaker 6 (15:41):
Now you heard the testimony and saw the exhibits of
the concrete buckets that were taken off that Guseba, Yes,
had you ever seen those before?
Speaker 4 (15:51):
No?
Speaker 5 (15:53):
Did you know they were on the goosebar?
Speaker 3 (15:54):
No?
Speaker 5 (15:55):
Did you know anything about the content? No.
Speaker 4 (15:58):
George Wagner testified that he knew all of the Rodents
well and liked them. He then went on to explain
some of the connections between the two families.
Speaker 5 (16:07):
What was the relationship between Chris Senior and fun and
how would you describe their relationship? Like, right before the.
Speaker 3 (16:13):
Murders really close friends?
Speaker 5 (16:16):
What do you mean by really close close friends?
Speaker 3 (16:18):
Business partners?
Speaker 5 (16:20):
Business partners at one?
Speaker 3 (16:21):
Well? Really, I would say more like I really wouldn't
call it sact business partners. I would say why my
dad was the tag along?
Speaker 5 (16:29):
Okay, what kind of business were they?
Speaker 3 (16:33):
From my understanding of it, Yes, my dad was trying
to help Chris with the growing in the marijuana.
Speaker 4 (16:39):
Well, George knew all of the Rodents. Frankie was the
one he was closest with.
Speaker 5 (16:44):
Did you still consider him a friend?
Speaker 3 (16:45):
I still considered being one of my best friends. Yes.
Speaker 4 (16:48):
Then George responded to the many witnesses that implicated him
in the twenty sixteen murders. He denied taking part in
or having knowledge of the murders. As his mother and
brother had claimed for.
Speaker 5 (16:59):
Testimony from Jake. Correct, Yes, you heard your mom testify right? Yes,
was in April of twenty sixteen, all right? Or March
of twenty sixteen or going all the way back to
January sixteen? Were you aware at any time that Jake
and your dad and your mom weren't planning to kill
(17:22):
the roses?
Speaker 8 (17:23):
No?
Speaker 5 (17:24):
Was that ever discussed with you?
Speaker 3 (17:25):
No?
Speaker 5 (17:26):
Did you have any idea that was going to happen?
Speaker 4 (17:29):
No?
Speaker 5 (17:30):
Did you know of any reason that your family wanted
to kill the roses? No? Did Jake ever come to
you and explain what was going to happen?
Speaker 2 (17:39):
No?
Speaker 5 (17:41):
Did Jake ever ask you to help in any way?
Speaker 6 (17:44):
No?
Speaker 5 (17:45):
What about your mother?
Speaker 3 (17:46):
No?
Speaker 5 (17:47):
What about your father? No? If one of them had
come to you and ask you to be involved in
something like this, what do you think you would have done?
Speaker 3 (17:57):
At first? I don't think I would have believed it.
I just don't. I never would have believed my family
would be capable of doing something of us magnitude.
Speaker 5 (18:08):
Well, you've described in some detail the thefts the artisans
that your family participated in. Yes, other illegal activities, yes,
including yourself. Yes, So why didn't you think they could
do something like this.
Speaker 3 (18:25):
Theft is one thing, murder is an entirely different thing.
Speaker 5 (18:29):
So if you had done they were planning, we're talking
about it, we're even discussing it. What would have been
what would have been your reaction or what.
Speaker 3 (18:39):
Would you have done? I don't know exactly how I
would have never let it happen.
Speaker 5 (18:44):
What would you have done to try to stop it?
Speaker 3 (18:47):
I can't honestly say that the one way or another,
I would have never let it happen.
Speaker 4 (18:55):
Here's James Pilcher, longtime investigative reporter in Cincinnati now Local twelve.
Speaker 1 (19:01):
I personally was surprised that the defense specifically said, were
you there, did you do anything? Did you know about
ahead of time? When did you find out that they
were guilty or that they had actually participated? His answer
was not until my brother pleaded guilty and I read
his proper and even then he didn't believe it that
he says he didn't believe it. So, yeah, I mean
it was it was stunning to hear that after everything
(19:23):
we've heard about him wanting to kill Ryan Scheider and
the BCI agent and him on the tapes saying, oh,
we've got to get a lawyer. We get it the
best lawyer. His mother saying I'll take the fall for it.
His mother's saying that George said I'll take the fall
for it, which he says he never said. So, yeah,
I mean it now becomes a case of who do
(19:45):
you believe, Angela and Jake and all of the circumstantial
evidence or George.
Speaker 4 (19:52):
On the night of the murderers, George Wagner cleimed he
was with his son and father, Billy, before heading to bed.
Speaker 5 (19:59):
Well, what did you do the day before?
Speaker 3 (20:01):
The night before one of the things went up on
the hill, took care of the animals. Then my dad
came down, brought my kid doughnuts again, which he never
would stop doing. And then my kid didn't want to believe,
so he stayed with my kid.
Speaker 5 (20:16):
And did you ever leave to go up and commit
these murders?
Speaker 4 (20:20):
No?
Speaker 5 (20:21):
Did you know that Jake and your dad had left?
Speaker 4 (20:26):
No?
Speaker 5 (20:27):
How do you explain it?
Speaker 3 (20:29):
I just didn't know they left.
Speaker 5 (20:31):
Did you go to bed day? Did you go to
sleep that night? Yes?
Speaker 4 (20:34):
George says he woke up the next morning, made coffee
and went with Jake to tear down a structure on
his grandfather's property.
Speaker 3 (20:41):
When I got back to the house, the news was
saying that there had been people killed on Union Hill
and my dad was freaking out, saying he couldn't get
a hold of Chris Senior, and where was Jake. Jake
was outside on the phone, right, where was your mother?
The mud room? Believe right?
Speaker 5 (21:01):
So what was your reaction?
Speaker 3 (21:04):
I was trying to ask my dad what was really
on the news and what was going on, and he
was still freaking out, saying Chris would an answer the phone.
And then Jake come in and said that Andrew Carson
had told him that Hannah and Frankie and everybody had
been killed.
Speaker 5 (21:17):
What was your reaction?
Speaker 3 (21:20):
I really don't know how to put it into words.
Speaker 5 (21:23):
Take him minute down the best you can.
Speaker 3 (21:26):
It was more heartbreaking and more of a trauma than
I've ever been through in my life.
Speaker 5 (21:33):
So what did you do?
Speaker 3 (21:34):
I ended up getting on my fourwheeler and going up
the hill, up the.
Speaker 5 (21:38):
Hill behind your farm. Yes, why did you do that?
Speaker 3 (21:41):
I always go out in the woods. Why I need
to calm down or need a little bit of therapy?
Speaker 5 (21:48):
And how long did you stay?
Speaker 2 (21:49):
That?
Speaker 3 (21:50):
A couple hours? Maybe when I come back down Samansa.
Fred had called me a little after her and my
ex wife, Taviy called me.
Speaker 5 (22:00):
What was Jake doing?
Speaker 3 (22:01):
He was sitting in the living room, kind of like
a day.
Speaker 5 (22:05):
What was your dad?
Speaker 3 (22:06):
He was still in the living room and just kind
of sitting there talking to Jake, and Jake really wasn't responding.
Speaker 5 (22:14):
What was your mother doing?
Speaker 3 (22:17):
I remember correctly, she was in the kitchen with the kids.
Speaker 4 (22:19):
George said, despite what others had testified, he never discussed
the murderers with his family afterwards.
Speaker 5 (22:25):
Did your dad ever talk to you in those following
days about the murder?
Speaker 3 (22:30):
No?
Speaker 5 (22:31):
Did your brother Jake ever talk to you at any
time about the murder? No? Did your mother ever talk
to you at any time about the murder?
Speaker 6 (22:39):
No?
Speaker 5 (22:40):
Did you ever overhear them talking amongst themselves? No? Did
you have any clue your family was involved in this?
Speaker 3 (22:48):
No?
Speaker 4 (22:51):
George said, he and his family attended the road and funerals,
and his parents and Jake acted quote normal.
Speaker 5 (22:57):
Did you ever talk about the murders on the way No?
How about on the way home?
Speaker 2 (23:02):
No?
Speaker 5 (23:03):
What was what was your dad's demeanor?
Speaker 3 (23:07):
Acted like my dad?
Speaker 5 (23:09):
What about Jake?
Speaker 3 (23:10):
Jake just acted like Jake? He doesn't hardly ever show emotion.
Speaker 5 (23:15):
Well, you saw him testify here right, Yes. Did you
see him laugh and smile and smirk?
Speaker 4 (23:21):
Yes?
Speaker 5 (23:22):
Had you ever seen him act like that?
Speaker 3 (23:24):
No?
Speaker 5 (23:25):
Never, never in my life. You said he doesn't show emotion, No,
what do you mean by that?
Speaker 3 (23:32):
He won't even let you give him a hug.
Speaker 4 (23:34):
George said later that his family went on a trip
to Alaska in May of twenty seventeen, and on the
way home were stopped and interrogated.
Speaker 5 (23:42):
Did you, at this point in time know if your
family had any involvement in these murders?
Speaker 3 (23:47):
No?
Speaker 5 (23:49):
Were you upset that BCI was still looking at your
family after this time?
Speaker 3 (23:53):
Yes?
Speaker 5 (23:54):
I was very upset.
Speaker 3 (23:56):
Because I was under the assumption that they were just
trying to point the finger at anybody they could do
so they wouldn't continue to be like Facebook topics was
saying that they didn't know what they were doing for
their job. I thought they were just trying to frame
my mom and brother.
Speaker 4 (24:11):
George said his interrogation by BCI agents at the border
started friendly enough, but then they began accusing him and
his family of killing the Rodents.
Speaker 3 (24:19):
If I remember correctly, They started off talking about hunting.
Speaker 5 (24:22):
And vision okay, And then then.
Speaker 3 (24:26):
They started asking questions about receipts and shell casings and
shoes and.
Speaker 5 (24:33):
Did they show you any photographs or any documents? Did
they showed you?
Speaker 3 (24:39):
Yes, they showed me pictures of shellcasing, a picture, I
believe a picture of Walmart receipt and a pair of shoes.
Speaker 5 (24:47):
And what were what kind of questions were they asking.
Speaker 3 (24:50):
They were saying that my mom bought the pair of shoes,
and the receipts showed she bought them, and that those
were those shoes that was used. And then they said
that they found a showcasing of the crime scene that
matched my father's gun.
Speaker 5 (25:05):
And what was your reaction on it?
Speaker 3 (25:07):
I didn't believe what they were saying.
Speaker 5 (25:10):
Were you told that your family was involved.
Speaker 3 (25:13):
They accused my brother and my mother of it.
Speaker 5 (25:16):
Yes, what was your reaction?
Speaker 3 (25:19):
I was just upset about it. I was emostly distraught
that they would accuse my family.
Speaker 5 (25:25):
So you're in this interview or interrogation in Montana. What
was your understanding at the end of the interview.
Speaker 3 (25:32):
At the end of it, yeah, my understanding of it
was they were either going to call me a suspect
or a witness whichever they decided, and that they wanted
me to basically spy on my brother.
Speaker 5 (25:45):
Did you agree to do that? Yes? Did you ever
have a conversation with your brother after this Montana?
Speaker 3 (25:54):
Yes?
Speaker 5 (25:55):
Explain him.
Speaker 3 (25:56):
I asked my brother if he had had anything to
do with it, or if he knew who did When?
Speaker 5 (26:00):
Did you have that conversation?
Speaker 3 (26:02):
When we got back from Montana was on the farm
reloading everything.
Speaker 5 (26:07):
Is anybody else around? No?
Speaker 3 (26:08):
It was just me and him.
Speaker 5 (26:10):
What was his response?
Speaker 3 (26:11):
He swore up and down he didn't know who did
it and they didn't have nothing to do with it.
Speaker 5 (26:16):
Did you accept that?
Speaker 3 (26:17):
I had no reason not to believe him?
Speaker 4 (26:23):
Let's stop here for another break. Despite Jak and his parents' denials,
George said, the rumors of their involvement in the murderers
followed them to Alaska.
Speaker 5 (26:40):
All right, well, let's talk about that for a second.
You're up in Alaska, right, Yes? Did these crimes? Were
they publicized in Alaska?
Speaker 4 (26:48):
Yes?
Speaker 3 (26:49):
How's that it ended up being broadcast on the local
news channels up there? What was broadcast that my family
were subjects of interest and anybody who had information I
should call this number?
Speaker 5 (27:02):
How did that make.
Speaker 3 (27:04):
Not happy about it. I h when I first got
to a last guy, I went to Sportsman's warehouse to
buy me a new clock, where I sold mine before
I left and h they sold it to it no problems.
Then when I went back after that, they refused to
tell me anything.
Speaker 4 (27:21):
Even now, George says he can't believe his brother and
mother admitted to the killings.
Speaker 5 (27:27):
What did you think?
Speaker 3 (27:28):
I really didn't know how to take her to want
to think. I first thought my brother had just gone
crazy sitting in jail. Why did you think that my
brother is not a social person and doesn't get along
well with people. I couldn't understand how my brother would
be capable of doing something like this, especially after he'd
swore to me but he had nothing to do with it.
Speaker 5 (27:49):
That make you feel.
Speaker 3 (27:50):
Heartbroken, betrayed for the fact that what he did to
Hand and Frankie and their family, and for the fact
that I believed him and I took up for him.
Speaker 4 (28:03):
George says he had a similar reaction when his mother
pled guilty.
Speaker 3 (28:07):
I was heartbroken over it and felt betrayed, and I
just couldn't believe that they were capable of it.
Speaker 5 (28:14):
You still have a hard time, Conte.
Speaker 3 (28:16):
I have a hard time dealing, was it?
Speaker 5 (28:17):
Yes? Now you heard your brother come in here and
testify that you were part of the play.
Speaker 3 (28:25):
Yes, I heard that.
Speaker 5 (28:27):
Is that true?
Speaker 3 (28:27):
No?
Speaker 5 (28:29):
Did you help him in any way before the murders? No?
Did you help him in any way after?
Speaker 2 (28:37):
No?
Speaker 5 (28:38):
Did you help him build that false bed on the truck? No?
Did you crawl in that truck? No? Were you up
on Union Hill Road that night?
Speaker 8 (28:47):
No?
Speaker 5 (28:49):
Did you help him get rid of the clothing afterwards?
Speaker 2 (28:52):
No?
Speaker 5 (28:52):
Did you help him dig that hole? No? Did you
help him get rid of the guns and other things
that were found on the concrete bucket? You heard your
mother testify too, Yes? How did it make you feel
to have your mother testify against you?
Speaker 3 (29:09):
It was emotionally hard, considering she wouldn't even look at me.
Speaker 4 (29:17):
After George's denials, he said he didn't believe what Jake
and his mother, Angela's rationale was for the murders.
Speaker 5 (29:24):
You heard your brother testify about he thought was being
sexually amused. Yes, same thing for your mother. Yes. Did
you at any time ever suspect it was being sexually amused? No?
What was your reaction when you heard your brother and
(29:45):
your mother testify.
Speaker 3 (29:46):
But I don't see how they could ever believe something
like that, because Hannah, I'm Frankie and Christina and their
family would never do anything to a child.
Speaker 5 (29:56):
Do you know why your family did this?
Speaker 3 (30:00):
Can't even begin to imagine why. I've tried for the
past year and a half to figure it out.
Speaker 5 (30:05):
Now that you know Jake has pled guilty, what do
you think of it?
Speaker 3 (30:12):
I really don't even like calling him my brother anymore.
Speaker 5 (30:17):
What is that?
Speaker 3 (30:18):
I just I'm ashamed to know that my family would
do something like this.
Speaker 5 (30:22):
What about your mother?
Speaker 3 (30:23):
I have the same feeling towards her.
Speaker 4 (30:28):
Here again, Investigative journalist James Pilcher.
Speaker 1 (30:32):
He owns up everything short of being part of the merch.
He owned up to all the criminal activity, even on
his own outside of his family. He owned up to everything.
But he said, I would never kill anybody. I would
never kill anybody for his niece. He would never kill
anybody for his own son. He would never even think
about it. And he said, if I had known about it,
(30:52):
I would have tried to account it. So now if
I'm a durer or my head is swimming.
Speaker 4 (31:00):
On that. Next time for more information on the case,
and relevant photos. Follow us on Instagram at Kat Underscore Studios.
The Pikedon Masker is produced by Stephanie Leidecker, Jeff Shane,
Connor Powell, Andrew Arnow, Gabriel Castillo and me Courtney Armstrong.
Editing and sound designed by Jeff Ti Music by Jared Aston.
(31:24):
The Pikedon Masker is a production of iHeart Radio and
KAT Studios. For more podcasts from iHeart Radio, visit the
iHeart Radio app, Apple Podcasts, or wherever you listen to
your favorite shows.
His mother's saying that George said I'll take the fall
for it, which he says he never said.
Speaker 2 (00:11):
His account of his relationship with Hannahmee Rodin and according
to George, they were very close and they were dear friends. Again,
is this just an attempt to show him as a
vulnerable human being or is this just a show?
Speaker 3 (00:29):
I don't see how they could ever believe something like that,
because Hannah, I'm Frankie and Christenior and their family would
never do anything to a child.
Speaker 1 (00:37):
It now becomes a case of who do you believe?
Angela and Jake and all of the circumstantial evidence for George.
Speaker 4 (00:50):
Welcome to the Pipon Massacre Season four, Episode twenty two,
George Wagner takes the stand Part two. I'm Courtney Armstrong,
a television producer at Kat's Studios with Stephanie Leidecker and
Jeff Shane. It's important to note that George Wagner has
pleaded not guilty and has maintained he did not kill anyone.
(01:11):
His father, Billy Wagner, whose trial is upcoming, has also
pleaded not guilty to all charges. Last week, we left
off with George Wagner testifying about a physical altercation he
had with his father Billy. We pick up with a
continuation of George's testimony about the aftermath of the confrontation.
As the toxic environment at the Wagner home grew, Georg
(01:33):
said his father, Billy Wagner, moved out.
Speaker 3 (01:36):
Explain his he stayed with my grandparents.
Speaker 5 (01:41):
Yes, do you know why?
Speaker 3 (01:44):
Multiple reasons. One he couldn't stand being around my mother anymore,
and to my grandfather was bedridden and couldn't.
Speaker 6 (01:51):
Gall abny So I understand who records his father was
spending a lot of time at the Flying.
Speaker 5 (01:58):
W helping with his father's care.
Speaker 3 (02:00):
Yes.
Speaker 6 (02:01):
Also at the same time, what was the relationship between
him and the mom?
Speaker 3 (02:06):
It basically went to they might as well just called
it friends after a divorce, even though they weren't divorced.
Speaker 4 (02:12):
As his parents' marriage was falling apart, George began to
date Tabitha Clater. When their relationship ended, George said his
brother Jake's girlfriend, Hannah Mae Rodin, played matchmaker. She was
the one who got Tabitha and George back together.
Speaker 5 (02:26):
Yeah, we've heard a lot about Jake and Hannah's relationship.
Describe your relationship with.
Speaker 3 (02:32):
Hand I looked a hand as a baby sister.
Speaker 5 (02:35):
What do you mean by that?
Speaker 3 (02:38):
My brother might be biologically my brother, but we never
acted like brothers. Hannah acted like a baby sister to me,
and my uncle Chris acted like a brother to me.
Would we go fishing together, four wheel and fix buck
eyes during the holidays, tell dirty jokes back and forth,
talk to each other about what was father and each other?
Speaker 5 (03:00):
How else would you describe your relationship.
Speaker 3 (03:03):
We'd sit around, tell dirty jokes and stuff, and I'd
put beer and stuff and different containers so Jake wouldn't
know she was drinking.
Speaker 6 (03:12):
Okay, And what did Jake think of your relationship?
Speaker 3 (03:17):
He I don't think he really liked it. He or
I was too close to her?
Speaker 6 (03:21):
And were you anything ever more than brother little sister?
There's quite a bit any age differences.
Speaker 3 (03:31):
Think him five and a half years, maybe six?
Speaker 5 (03:35):
And would you do other activities together?
Speaker 3 (03:38):
We sit around, tell dirty jokes with each other. And
if Hannah was having an emotional day, she talked to
me about it, or if I was having an emotional day,
I talked to her about it.
Speaker 6 (03:49):
And at this time, you're kind of a big fellow, right, yes?
Is that something you would ever talk to him.
Speaker 3 (03:56):
That's kind of like a two way street with us.
What do you mean she were about her weight, I
worried about mind, and so what would you do? Sit
there and talk to each other about what possible? Bill
is at least weight.
Speaker 4 (04:10):
After being reunited by Hanname Roden, George Wagner and Tabitha
were married in twenty twelve. George described a difficult.
Speaker 5 (04:17):
Marriage and did Tabby abby medical other issue?
Speaker 3 (04:24):
She had really bad fits?
Speaker 5 (04:26):
What do you mean?
Speaker 3 (04:28):
She would freak out and yell and scream, and she
would just rock back and forth and cry on average
two or three times a week. And so what would
you do at that point in time? Yeah, just try
and calm her down. Usually usually if I'd just give
her a hug, she'd calm down. But do you know
she was on any medications she's supposed to.
Speaker 5 (04:49):
Be did she take? How did that affect your li.
Speaker 3 (04:56):
We had a lot of really good days until she
had her fits.
Speaker 5 (05:00):
And so you continued on with your relationship, yes, and
so you decided to have a family, is that right? Yes?
Speaker 3 (05:08):
We tried for over a year to have our son,
and finally she got pregnant with him. How did that
make it suit the best moment in my.
Speaker 4 (05:16):
Life, but that happiness was short lived.
Speaker 3 (05:19):
She ended up telling me she was grewing her best
friends then, So what was your action?
Speaker 5 (05:24):
Your reaction?
Speaker 3 (05:27):
I mean, it's kind of heartbreaking in a way, but
she swore that the baby was mine and we went
on with it.
Speaker 4 (05:36):
A DNA test proved the child was George's, but the
damage to the relationship was significant.
Speaker 3 (05:42):
When he was born, I ended up getting a DNA
test to make sure he was mine. But while we
were in the hospital, it was driving me nuts with
everything that she had done, and I tried to leave her.
At that point, she begged and cried and pleaded for
me not to leave her, saying she couldn't raise a
kid on her own.
Speaker 5 (06:02):
So what did you do?
Speaker 3 (06:03):
I ended up caving and stayed with her.
Speaker 4 (06:07):
George Wagner said between his own families intense fighting and
Tabitha's fits that he often wanted to run away, but
because he relied on his mother and not Tabitha to
take care of his son, George didn't.
Speaker 3 (06:19):
And who had primary responsible who took care of him
the most? Me and my mother?
Speaker 5 (06:26):
What about ted?
Speaker 3 (06:27):
When she was around somebody else? She had a habit
of always getting hurt when he was around her. She
bring him out of the bathroom and give him a bath,
you'd have a new knot on his head. Or she
shoved his hand in some hot vegetables once and another time.
She might have tried to catch him, but I think
she pushed him off the picnic tables. What looked like
to me. Do you think him to find that?
Speaker 5 (06:50):
Well? Do you think she was purposely harming him?
Speaker 3 (06:54):
I can't say on any of them, other than the vegetables,
and she did that on purpose?
Speaker 5 (06:58):
What happened?
Speaker 3 (07:00):
He kept trying to reach for him, and she shoved
his hand to them when they were too hot and
held it there until it burned him.
Speaker 5 (07:06):
Were there.
Speaker 3 (07:07):
That's just what she said she did.
Speaker 5 (07:10):
So what was your reaction.
Speaker 3 (07:12):
I didn't trust her to make sure he didn't get hurt.
Even her own mother said she couldn't handle raising the child.
Speaker 4 (07:22):
The situation at home with Tabitha only continued to unravel.
Speaker 3 (07:27):
I had come in from working and my kid was
sitting on the counter. He was a couple months old,
maybe before the house right after the house barn, and
I couldn't find Tabby anywhere, and she was locked in
the bathroom. After I got the door opened, she was
sitting in the bathroom in a pull of her own blood.
(07:49):
She was trying to kill herself.
Speaker 5 (07:51):
How was she doing?
Speaker 3 (07:52):
She had a pair of scissors hacking away at herself.
Speaker 5 (07:55):
What did you do?
Speaker 3 (07:56):
I took the scissors from her and bandaged her wrist up.
Tried to get her to go to the hospital and
she refused to say and they put her on a sideboard,
and I tried to get her to just let me
and her move to Alaska at.
Speaker 5 (08:07):
That point, so what did you actually do?
Speaker 3 (08:09):
I put her in the truck and was going out
the driveway try and get her to go to the hospital.
Speaker 5 (08:15):
Did you have any intensions of moving at that point?
Speaker 3 (08:17):
Yes, I was going to move her to Alaska because
she said she couldn't deal with my mother anymore.
Speaker 5 (08:22):
Why didn't you go to.
Speaker 3 (08:24):
She said, we had no money and didn't have no
way to get there, and it we'd be better off
to stay there where we had the roof over our head.
Speaker 5 (08:31):
And so you agreed that, Yes, I didn't you to do.
Speaker 3 (08:35):
I didn't want to take the chance of being broke
with no roof over my head, and I didn't never
have the financials backing to do what I wanted to do.
Speaker 5 (08:45):
Do you have any regrets over that?
Speaker 3 (08:46):
Yes? I do.
Speaker 4 (08:50):
During one of Tabitha's quote fits, George Wagner testified that
she hurt their son while changing his diaper. It's important
to note that Tabitha Clayter deny any abuse towards her son.
Speaker 3 (09:03):
Tabby was in my room changing his diaper and he
was wailing, which for some reason, she can't change the
diapers out of whaling, and I went to find out
what was wrong with him. So she was kind of
like holding him down, telling him to quit kicking and stuff,
and being I think overly pushy with him. So I
told her to calm down, quit yelling out, even I'll
do it, and she got mad and tried to swing
(09:24):
around and bumped his head off the wall. So I
took from Tabby and gave him the Hannah. After that,
Tabby got mad and stormed out of the house and
went out on the patio, and then I went out
try and calm her down, and she was doing her
normal fits, yelling and screaming and hollering. And about that time,
my mother came home.
Speaker 5 (09:43):
Because your mother wasn't there, So your mother came home.
Speaker 3 (09:48):
She tried to put herself in the middle of our argument,
and I told her it was not her business, and
she went in the house after I yelled out her.
A couple of times after that, I I calm and
ta you down. Usually I can get her to calm down.
Sometimes a huggle work, but not generally. I tried to
hug her and she bit me. And after she bit me,
(10:09):
she hit me with a board and took off out
through the driveway. So I said to hell with it
and went in the house.
Speaker 4 (10:17):
After a few hours of looking, georgeaid he found Tabitha
at a truck stop several miles away. Their relationship continued
to deteriorate and ended when he found out Tabitha was
still in her relationship with her friend's father.
Speaker 3 (10:31):
After six weeks, I found out that she wasn't trying
to fix the things. She was still screwing her best
friend's dad, which was from the beginning that I talked about,
and I went to her house in the middle of
the night to tell her young, I'm done.
Speaker 5 (10:43):
With it, really, what did you do?
Speaker 3 (10:45):
As a result, after that, we got divorced.
Speaker 4 (10:51):
Here's Jeff and Stephanie.
Speaker 7 (10:53):
Without physical evidence, this case is built on a lot
of emotion, and so I think what George Wadener and
his attorneys are trying to do is paint a human
picture of George Wagner. You know, they've seen the jury
has heard a lot of horrible things about George and
his family, and so to hear something a little more
vulnerable and makes them sound more sensitive.
Speaker 5 (11:12):
I think they're thinking, can't hurt.
Speaker 2 (11:17):
The one detail that I heard was his account of
his relationship with hannahme Rodin, And according to George, they
were very close and they were dear friends, and that
they both were very self conscious about their weight and
they would talk about that and discuss that. Again, is
this just an attempt to show him as a vulnerable
human being or is this just a show.
Speaker 4 (11:43):
We're going to take a break. We'll be back in
a moment. After a brief lunch break, George Wagner returned
to the stand and calmly continued to distance himself from
his own family. After making new hunting friends, George said
he made up his mind to leave his family's criminal life.
Speaker 3 (12:07):
James became a really close friend of mine. I kind
of looked at Rick as a second father figure.
Speaker 5 (12:13):
Why do you say Rick was a second fun.
Speaker 3 (12:15):
He always gave me a lot of advice growing up.
Speaker 5 (12:17):
Was that advice different than what you'd received her?
Speaker 3 (12:21):
Yes? Explain it, God, He basically told me not to
continue down the road I was going doing the stuff
that my father did.
Speaker 5 (12:29):
And did you take that advice to her?
Speaker 3 (12:32):
It took a long time to get it completely out
of my system, but yes, Well.
Speaker 5 (12:36):
When did you start taking his advice to her?
Speaker 3 (12:39):
Around the time that me and Tabby got married?
Speaker 5 (12:42):
And you talked earlier about when you and Tabby got
married and you'd like to drink and have a good
time down at Big Bear. Yes, once your son was born,
did that change?
Speaker 3 (12:55):
I gave all my party in days up increasingly?
Speaker 4 (12:59):
George said he spent time with Rick and James hunting
a lot. This also angered his mother Angela.
Speaker 5 (13:04):
And how did that affect yours?
Speaker 3 (13:06):
It was always a fighting argument about me spending time
with them and her want me to stay and do
everything she wanted on the farm.
Speaker 5 (13:14):
So you talked to earlier about how mister Rogan was
giving you advice? Yes? And did that ever? Did his
advice ever? Think him?
Speaker 3 (13:23):
And one point in time, yes, he basically tried to
steer me away from where my father was leading me.
Explain what you mean that it was going to end
up badly one day with the theft and the fuel
and the loads, and I'd always have to look over my.
Speaker 5 (13:36):
Shoulder and all right, So what did you do?
Speaker 3 (13:40):
Eventually? I quit?
Speaker 5 (13:42):
Quit?
Speaker 3 (13:42):
What everything my dad taught me about?
Speaker 5 (13:45):
How old were you when that was late twenty fourteen?
Late twenty fourteen.
Speaker 4 (13:50):
Yes, George said, as he looked to change his own
life around, Hannah Roden became more of a present to him,
and that he considered her a close family member having Hannah.
Speaker 3 (14:00):
Round, Yes, she was like a baby sister.
Speaker 5 (14:06):
What was her relationship with your father?
Speaker 3 (14:11):
Her and dad was all your goofing off with each other?
Speaker 5 (14:14):
How about Hannah and your mother?
Speaker 3 (14:17):
My mother and Hannah used to do a lot of
stuff together. They bake all the time, cook all the time.
She followed her around like a love sick puppy dog.
Speaker 5 (14:25):
Basically, you thought they had a good relationship. Yes, Did
you ever know all the time when the relationship soured in.
Speaker 3 (14:33):
Any way between my mom and Hannah?
Speaker 5 (14:36):
Yes?
Speaker 3 (14:36):
Not really.
Speaker 5 (14:38):
What about between her and Jake.
Speaker 3 (14:41):
Got to where they bought and argued a lot.
Speaker 5 (14:45):
Did there come a time when they separated?
Speaker 3 (14:47):
Yes, my brother and Hannah daylight and dark to each other.
Speaker 5 (14:51):
What do you mean?
Speaker 3 (14:52):
I didn't think she'd ever leave him. But they also
didn't get along because Hannah wanted to do her things
and Jake didn't want.
Speaker 5 (14:57):
To What kind of things did Hannah want to do?
Speaker 3 (15:00):
Hang out with her friends, do normal teenage stuff. She
kind of missed out of being a teenager when she
got with Jake.
Speaker 8 (15:09):
Major developments today in Pike County, George Wagner the fourth
took to the stand in his own murder trial. Wagner
the Fourth is claiming he never took part in or
had any knowledge of the killings of the Rodent family.
Speaker 4 (15:22):
After hours of testimony detailing the toxic Wagner family dynamics
and his own frustrations with his family, defense attorney John
Parker turned to the April twenty sixteen murders. When asked
by his lawyer if he knew where his family quote
stashed the murder weapons, George pleaded ignorance.
Speaker 6 (15:41):
Now you heard the testimony and saw the exhibits of
the concrete buckets that were taken off that Guseba, Yes,
had you ever seen those before?
Speaker 4 (15:51):
No?
Speaker 5 (15:53):
Did you know they were on the goosebar?
Speaker 3 (15:54):
No?
Speaker 5 (15:55):
Did you know anything about the content? No.
Speaker 4 (15:58):
George Wagner testified that he knew all of the Rodents
well and liked them. He then went on to explain
some of the connections between the two families.
Speaker 5 (16:07):
What was the relationship between Chris Senior and fun and
how would you describe their relationship? Like, right before the.
Speaker 3 (16:13):
Murders really close friends?
Speaker 5 (16:16):
What do you mean by really close close friends?
Speaker 3 (16:18):
Business partners?
Speaker 5 (16:20):
Business partners at one?
Speaker 3 (16:21):
Well? Really, I would say more like I really wouldn't
call it sact business partners. I would say why my
dad was the tag along?
Speaker 5 (16:29):
Okay, what kind of business were they?
Speaker 3 (16:33):
From my understanding of it, Yes, my dad was trying
to help Chris with the growing in the marijuana.
Speaker 4 (16:39):
Well, George knew all of the Rodents. Frankie was the
one he was closest with.
Speaker 5 (16:44):
Did you still consider him a friend?
Speaker 3 (16:45):
I still considered being one of my best friends. Yes.
Speaker 4 (16:48):
Then George responded to the many witnesses that implicated him
in the twenty sixteen murders. He denied taking part in
or having knowledge of the murders. As his mother and
brother had claimed for.
Speaker 5 (16:59):
Testimony from Jake. Correct, Yes, you heard your mom testify right? Yes,
was in April of twenty sixteen, all right? Or March
of twenty sixteen or going all the way back to
January sixteen? Were you aware at any time that Jake
and your dad and your mom weren't planning to kill
(17:22):
the roses?
Speaker 8 (17:23):
No?
Speaker 5 (17:24):
Was that ever discussed with you?
Speaker 3 (17:25):
No?
Speaker 5 (17:26):
Did you have any idea that was going to happen?
Speaker 4 (17:29):
No?
Speaker 5 (17:30):
Did you know of any reason that your family wanted
to kill the roses? No? Did Jake ever come to
you and explain what was going to happen?
Speaker 2 (17:39):
No?
Speaker 5 (17:41):
Did Jake ever ask you to help in any way?
Speaker 6 (17:44):
No?
Speaker 5 (17:45):
What about your mother?
Speaker 3 (17:46):
No?
Speaker 5 (17:47):
What about your father? No? If one of them had
come to you and ask you to be involved in
something like this, what do you think you would have done?
Speaker 3 (17:57):
At first? I don't think I would have believed it.
I just don't. I never would have believed my family
would be capable of doing something of us magnitude.
Speaker 5 (18:08):
Well, you've described in some detail the thefts the artisans
that your family participated in. Yes, other illegal activities, yes,
including yourself. Yes, So why didn't you think they could
do something like this.
Speaker 3 (18:25):
Theft is one thing, murder is an entirely different thing.
Speaker 5 (18:29):
So if you had done they were planning, we're talking
about it, we're even discussing it. What would have been
what would have been your reaction or what.
Speaker 3 (18:39):
Would you have done? I don't know exactly how I
would have never let it happen.
Speaker 5 (18:44):
What would you have done to try to stop it?
Speaker 3 (18:47):
I can't honestly say that the one way or another,
I would have never let it happen.
Speaker 4 (18:55):
Here's James Pilcher, longtime investigative reporter in Cincinnati now Local twelve.
Speaker 1 (19:01):
I personally was surprised that the defense specifically said, were
you there, did you do anything? Did you know about
ahead of time? When did you find out that they
were guilty or that they had actually participated? His answer
was not until my brother pleaded guilty and I read
his proper and even then he didn't believe it that
he says he didn't believe it. So, yeah, I mean
it was it was stunning to hear that after everything
(19:23):
we've heard about him wanting to kill Ryan Scheider and
the BCI agent and him on the tapes saying, oh,
we've got to get a lawyer. We get it the
best lawyer. His mother saying I'll take the fall for it.
His mother's saying that George said I'll take the fall
for it, which he says he never said. So, yeah,
I mean it now becomes a case of who do
(19:45):
you believe, Angela and Jake and all of the circumstantial
evidence or George.
Speaker 4 (19:52):
On the night of the murderers, George Wagner cleimed he
was with his son and father, Billy, before heading to bed.
Speaker 5 (19:59):
Well, what did you do the day before?
Speaker 3 (20:01):
The night before one of the things went up on
the hill, took care of the animals. Then my dad
came down, brought my kid doughnuts again, which he never
would stop doing. And then my kid didn't want to believe,
so he stayed with my kid.
Speaker 5 (20:16):
And did you ever leave to go up and commit
these murders?
Speaker 4 (20:20):
No?
Speaker 5 (20:21):
Did you know that Jake and your dad had left?
Speaker 4 (20:26):
No?
Speaker 5 (20:27):
How do you explain it?
Speaker 3 (20:29):
I just didn't know they left.
Speaker 5 (20:31):
Did you go to bed day? Did you go to
sleep that night? Yes?
Speaker 4 (20:34):
George says he woke up the next morning, made coffee
and went with Jake to tear down a structure on
his grandfather's property.
Speaker 3 (20:41):
When I got back to the house, the news was
saying that there had been people killed on Union Hill
and my dad was freaking out, saying he couldn't get
a hold of Chris Senior, and where was Jake. Jake
was outside on the phone, right, where was your mother?
The mud room? Believe right?
Speaker 5 (21:01):
So what was your reaction?
Speaker 3 (21:04):
I was trying to ask my dad what was really
on the news and what was going on, and he
was still freaking out, saying Chris would an answer the phone.
And then Jake come in and said that Andrew Carson
had told him that Hannah and Frankie and everybody had
been killed.
Speaker 5 (21:17):
What was your reaction?
Speaker 3 (21:20):
I really don't know how to put it into words.
Speaker 5 (21:23):
Take him minute down the best you can.
Speaker 3 (21:26):
It was more heartbreaking and more of a trauma than
I've ever been through in my life.
Speaker 5 (21:33):
So what did you do?
Speaker 3 (21:34):
I ended up getting on my fourwheeler and going up
the hill, up the.
Speaker 5 (21:38):
Hill behind your farm. Yes, why did you do that?
Speaker 3 (21:41):
I always go out in the woods. Why I need
to calm down or need a little bit of therapy?
Speaker 5 (21:48):
And how long did you stay?
Speaker 2 (21:49):
That?
Speaker 3 (21:50):
A couple hours? Maybe when I come back down Samansa.
Fred had called me a little after her and my
ex wife, Taviy called me.
Speaker 5 (22:00):
What was Jake doing?
Speaker 3 (22:01):
He was sitting in the living room, kind of like
a day.
Speaker 5 (22:05):
What was your dad?
Speaker 3 (22:06):
He was still in the living room and just kind
of sitting there talking to Jake, and Jake really wasn't responding.
Speaker 5 (22:14):
What was your mother doing?
Speaker 3 (22:17):
I remember correctly, she was in the kitchen with the kids.
Speaker 4 (22:19):
George said, despite what others had testified, he never discussed
the murderers with his family afterwards.
Speaker 5 (22:25):
Did your dad ever talk to you in those following
days about the murder?
Speaker 3 (22:30):
No?
Speaker 5 (22:31):
Did your brother Jake ever talk to you at any
time about the murder? No? Did your mother ever talk
to you at any time about the murder?
Speaker 6 (22:39):
No?
Speaker 5 (22:40):
Did you ever overhear them talking amongst themselves? No? Did
you have any clue your family was involved in this?
Speaker 3 (22:48):
No?
Speaker 4 (22:51):
George said, he and his family attended the road and funerals,
and his parents and Jake acted quote normal.
Speaker 5 (22:57):
Did you ever talk about the murders on the way No?
How about on the way home?
Speaker 2 (23:02):
No?
Speaker 5 (23:03):
What was what was your dad's demeanor?
Speaker 3 (23:07):
Acted like my dad?
Speaker 5 (23:09):
What about Jake?
Speaker 3 (23:10):
Jake just acted like Jake? He doesn't hardly ever show emotion.
Speaker 5 (23:15):
Well, you saw him testify here right, Yes. Did you
see him laugh and smile and smirk?
Speaker 4 (23:21):
Yes?
Speaker 5 (23:22):
Had you ever seen him act like that?
Speaker 3 (23:24):
No?
Speaker 5 (23:25):
Never, never in my life. You said he doesn't show emotion, No,
what do you mean by that?
Speaker 3 (23:32):
He won't even let you give him a hug.
Speaker 4 (23:34):
George said later that his family went on a trip
to Alaska in May of twenty seventeen, and on the
way home were stopped and interrogated.
Speaker 5 (23:42):
Did you, at this point in time know if your
family had any involvement in these murders?
Speaker 3 (23:47):
No?
Speaker 5 (23:49):
Were you upset that BCI was still looking at your
family after this time?
Speaker 3 (23:53):
Yes?
Speaker 5 (23:54):
I was very upset.
Speaker 3 (23:56):
Because I was under the assumption that they were just
trying to point the finger at anybody they could do
so they wouldn't continue to be like Facebook topics was
saying that they didn't know what they were doing for
their job. I thought they were just trying to frame
my mom and brother.
Speaker 4 (24:11):
George said his interrogation by BCI agents at the border
started friendly enough, but then they began accusing him and
his family of killing the Rodents.
Speaker 3 (24:19):
If I remember correctly, They started off talking about hunting.
Speaker 5 (24:22):
And vision okay, And then then.
Speaker 3 (24:26):
They started asking questions about receipts and shell casings and
shoes and.
Speaker 5 (24:33):
Did they show you any photographs or any documents? Did
they showed you?
Speaker 3 (24:39):
Yes, they showed me pictures of shellcasing, a picture, I
believe a picture of Walmart receipt and a pair of shoes.
Speaker 5 (24:47):
And what were what kind of questions were they asking.
Speaker 3 (24:50):
They were saying that my mom bought the pair of shoes,
and the receipts showed she bought them, and that those
were those shoes that was used. And then they said
that they found a showcasing of the crime scene that
matched my father's gun.
Speaker 5 (25:05):
And what was your reaction on it?
Speaker 3 (25:07):
I didn't believe what they were saying.
Speaker 5 (25:10):
Were you told that your family was involved.
Speaker 3 (25:13):
They accused my brother and my mother of it.
Speaker 5 (25:16):
Yes, what was your reaction?
Speaker 3 (25:19):
I was just upset about it. I was emostly distraught
that they would accuse my family.
Speaker 5 (25:25):
So you're in this interview or interrogation in Montana. What
was your understanding at the end of the interview.
Speaker 3 (25:32):
At the end of it, yeah, my understanding of it
was they were either going to call me a suspect
or a witness whichever they decided, and that they wanted
me to basically spy on my brother.
Speaker 5 (25:45):
Did you agree to do that? Yes? Did you ever
have a conversation with your brother after this Montana?
Speaker 3 (25:54):
Yes?
Speaker 5 (25:55):
Explain him.
Speaker 3 (25:56):
I asked my brother if he had had anything to
do with it, or if he knew who did When?
Speaker 5 (26:00):
Did you have that conversation?
Speaker 3 (26:02):
When we got back from Montana was on the farm
reloading everything.
Speaker 5 (26:07):
Is anybody else around? No?
Speaker 3 (26:08):
It was just me and him.
Speaker 5 (26:10):
What was his response?
Speaker 3 (26:11):
He swore up and down he didn't know who did
it and they didn't have nothing to do with it.
Speaker 5 (26:16):
Did you accept that?
Speaker 3 (26:17):
I had no reason not to believe him?
Speaker 4 (26:23):
Let's stop here for another break. Despite Jak and his parents' denials,
George said, the rumors of their involvement in the murderers
followed them to Alaska.
Speaker 5 (26:40):
All right, well, let's talk about that for a second.
You're up in Alaska, right, Yes? Did these crimes? Were
they publicized in Alaska?
Speaker 4 (26:48):
Yes?
Speaker 3 (26:49):
How's that it ended up being broadcast on the local
news channels up there? What was broadcast that my family
were subjects of interest and anybody who had information I
should call this number?
Speaker 5 (27:02):
How did that make.
Speaker 3 (27:04):
Not happy about it. I h when I first got
to a last guy, I went to Sportsman's warehouse to
buy me a new clock, where I sold mine before
I left and h they sold it to it no problems.
Then when I went back after that, they refused to
tell me anything.
Speaker 4 (27:21):
Even now, George says he can't believe his brother and
mother admitted to the killings.
Speaker 5 (27:27):
What did you think?
Speaker 3 (27:28):
I really didn't know how to take her to want
to think. I first thought my brother had just gone
crazy sitting in jail. Why did you think that my
brother is not a social person and doesn't get along
well with people. I couldn't understand how my brother would
be capable of doing something like this, especially after he'd
swore to me but he had nothing to do with it.
Speaker 5 (27:49):
That make you feel.
Speaker 3 (27:50):
Heartbroken, betrayed for the fact that what he did to
Hand and Frankie and their family, and for the fact
that I believed him and I took up for him.
Speaker 4 (28:03):
George says he had a similar reaction when his mother
pled guilty.
Speaker 3 (28:07):
I was heartbroken over it and felt betrayed, and I
just couldn't believe that they were capable of it.
Speaker 5 (28:14):
You still have a hard time, Conte.
Speaker 3 (28:16):
I have a hard time dealing, was it?
Speaker 5 (28:17):
Yes? Now you heard your brother come in here and
testify that you were part of the play.
Speaker 3 (28:25):
Yes, I heard that.
Speaker 5 (28:27):
Is that true?
Speaker 3 (28:27):
No?
Speaker 5 (28:29):
Did you help him in any way before the murders? No?
Did you help him in any way after?
Speaker 2 (28:37):
No?
Speaker 5 (28:38):
Did you help him build that false bed on the truck? No?
Did you crawl in that truck? No? Were you up
on Union Hill Road that night?
Speaker 8 (28:47):
No?
Speaker 5 (28:49):
Did you help him get rid of the clothing afterwards?
Speaker 2 (28:52):
No?
Speaker 5 (28:52):
Did you help him dig that hole? No? Did you
help him get rid of the guns and other things
that were found on the concrete bucket? You heard your
mother testify too, Yes? How did it make you feel
to have your mother testify against you?
Speaker 3 (29:09):
It was emotionally hard, considering she wouldn't even look at me.
Speaker 4 (29:17):
After George's denials, he said he didn't believe what Jake
and his mother, Angela's rationale was for the murders.
Speaker 5 (29:24):
You heard your brother testify about he thought was being
sexually amused. Yes, same thing for your mother. Yes. Did
you at any time ever suspect it was being sexually amused? No?
What was your reaction when you heard your brother and
(29:45):
your mother testify.
Speaker 3 (29:46):
But I don't see how they could ever believe something
like that, because Hannah, I'm Frankie and Christina and their
family would never do anything to a child.
Speaker 5 (29:56):
Do you know why your family did this?
Speaker 3 (30:00):
Can't even begin to imagine why. I've tried for the
past year and a half to figure it out.
Speaker 5 (30:05):
Now that you know Jake has pled guilty, what do
you think of it?
Speaker 3 (30:12):
I really don't even like calling him my brother anymore.
Speaker 5 (30:17):
What is that?
Speaker 3 (30:18):
I just I'm ashamed to know that my family would
do something like this.
Speaker 5 (30:22):
What about your mother?
Speaker 3 (30:23):
I have the same feeling towards her.
Speaker 4 (30:28):
Here again, Investigative journalist James Pilcher.
Speaker 1 (30:32):
He owns up everything short of being part of the merch.
He owned up to all the criminal activity, even on
his own outside of his family. He owned up to everything.
But he said, I would never kill anybody. I would
never kill anybody for his niece. He would never kill
anybody for his own son. He would never even think
about it. And he said, if I had known about it,
(30:52):
I would have tried to account it. So now if
I'm a durer or my head is swimming.
Speaker 4 (31:00):
On that. Next time for more information on the case,
and relevant photos. Follow us on Instagram at Kat Underscore Studios.
The Pikedon Masker is produced by Stephanie Leidecker, Jeff Shane,
Connor Powell, Andrew Arnow, Gabriel Castillo and me Courtney Armstrong.
Editing and sound designed by Jeff Ti Music by Jared Aston.
(31:24):
The Pikedon Masker is a production of iHeart Radio and
KAT Studios. For more podcasts from iHeart Radio, visit the
iHeart Radio app, Apple Podcasts, or wherever you listen to
your favorite shows.
Hosts And Creators
Stephanie Lydecker
Courtney Armstrong
Jeff Shane
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