April 5, 2023 • 56 mins
After years of speculation, the motivations behind the Rhoden murders may finally be revealed as George Wagner IV's testimony and intense cross-examination comes to a close.
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Episode Transcript
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Speaker 1 (00:02):
So she's lying.
Speaker 2 (00:03):
I'm not saying she's I'm saying she's.
Speaker 1 (00:05):
Mistaken, but everybody else is lying.
Speaker 2 (00:09):
I'm saying that my mom and Tabby Jake's lying about
that night.
Speaker 3 (00:13):
Angela Caneppa. If you listen to it, she hammers and moment,
and I think if I'm saying, there's a your if
they paid as closest attention to this trial as I have,
that's a red flag.
Speaker 1 (00:25):
What happens to you if you come in here and
admit that you and your brother and your father slaughtered
perfectly innocent people who lay asleep in their beds.
Speaker 2 (00:37):
Do you want to hear answer? Well, I feel it
should happen to anybody that would do that.
Speaker 1 (00:41):
I want to know what happens to you if you
come in here and admit that.
Speaker 2 (00:48):
What should happen to anybody is they should have death
given to them.
Speaker 4 (00:58):
This is the pipeson Masaker returned to Pike County season four,
episode twenty three, George Wagner's final day on the stand.
I'm Courtney Armstrong, a television producer at Katie's Studios with
Stephanie Leidacer and Jeff Shane. It's important to note that
(01:18):
George Wagner Fourth has pleaded not guilty and has maintained
he did not kill anyone. His father, Billy Wagner, whose
trial is upcoming, has also pleaded not guilty to all
charges after answering more than seven hours worth of questions
from his own lawyer the day before. George Wagner's surprising
testimony continues for a second day. Wagner continued defending himself,
(01:44):
denying any involvement in the murders. He insisted he took
no part in planning or covering up the brutal murders.
But on a second day of testimony, George Wagner faced
a far more aggressive line of questioning from prosecutor Auntiekneppa,
questioned his credibility, honesty, and the multiple inconsistencies from previous
(02:05):
statements George Wagner gave to investigators.
Speaker 5 (02:08):
George Wagner back on the stand for a second day.
Speaker 6 (02:11):
He is on trial for murder in the Pie County
massacre that happened in twenty sixteen.
Speaker 4 (02:16):
Wearing a light blue collared dress shirt, a dark tie,
and black vest, George Wagner the fourth returned to the
stand on the forty third day of his trial, defense
attorney John Parker started the morning by asking George Wagner
about his use of Facebook.
Speaker 5 (02:31):
Now, did you use Facebook.
Speaker 2 (02:36):
On and off?
Speaker 4 (02:37):
Wagner said he occasionally used Facebook to buy and sell
items like truck parts on its marketplace app, and to
talk to friends, including Frankie Rodin.
Speaker 7 (02:46):
With respect of Facebook, did you ever know of your
mother to.
Speaker 5 (02:52):
Use your account?
Speaker 2 (02:53):
Not to my knowledge.
Speaker 7 (02:55):
Did you ever know whether your mother obtained a password?
Speaker 2 (02:59):
Not to my knowledge?
Speaker 4 (03:00):
However, George testified his mother was constantly trying to access
the social media passwords.
Speaker 5 (03:07):
Did you ever have.
Speaker 7 (03:08):
An issue with your mother trying to access your fault her?
Speaker 4 (03:14):
Not?
Speaker 2 (03:15):
Really, I'm not gonna say accessing about constantly looking over
my shoulder trying to get the password to it. I
changed my password like daily because she would try and
figure out what my password was. How do you know
that she was always looking over my shoulder when I
put my password in?
Speaker 5 (03:28):
Is that before the murders?
Speaker 2 (03:30):
Far back as I've had an iPhone.
Speaker 4 (03:32):
George also said he was aware of the GoFundMe page
his brother Jake created, but also that he had nothing
to do with it. Defense attorney John Parker then shifted
the conversation to George's mindset after the murders and now
I viewed the police investigation. After being questioned at the
Montana border in twenty seventeen, George Wagner said he didn't
(03:53):
know if his shrug was bugged and his phone was tapped,
but he said he assumed they were during.
Speaker 5 (03:58):
That time frame.
Speaker 7 (03:59):
What was your mindset, so to speak about the investigation
and whether your family was guilty or not doing What
was your mindset?
Speaker 5 (04:08):
Though?
Speaker 2 (04:09):
I believed that they were just trying to frame my
mom and my brother and my family for the fact
that they didn't have anybody else to look at.
Speaker 5 (04:17):
Why did you think that?
Speaker 2 (04:18):
Because I was raised to believe it all law enforcement
was crooked, and I thought they just wanted to close
the case and didn't care about it being right or wrong.
Speaker 4 (04:25):
The fear of law enforcement also led George to think
his brother Jake's new wife, Elizabeth, was likely an informant.
Speaker 2 (04:32):
From the way I understood it was that BCI would
stoop to any level to get information about my family,
and that they would try and send a woman in
there to get close to me or my brother and
get information.
Speaker 1 (04:45):
Right.
Speaker 7 (04:46):
Does that explain some of the conversations we heard on
the recordings between you and your brother about that.
Speaker 2 (04:52):
Yes, because she didn't know my brother at all and
married him within like three months, and I just didn't trust,
not with everything that our family was being accused of.
Speaker 4 (05:03):
George also testified he questioned Elizabeth's motives and that he
did not trust her.
Speaker 1 (05:09):
Why not?
Speaker 2 (05:11):
Multiple different reasons?
Speaker 5 (05:12):
Take your time and.
Speaker 2 (05:15):
Reason one. When she first broke up my brother and
then got back with him, I just thought it was
weird that somebody who met a complete stranger would want
to be with somebody who was accused of what we
were being accused.
Speaker 5 (05:27):
Of, all right? Were there other reason?
Speaker 1 (05:29):
Yes?
Speaker 2 (05:31):
The second reason was she had come up with a
story about her childhood that she and her brothers and
her mother was part of some cult for some church
in Texas, and I had guessed the church ended up
selling kids the sex, slavery or something like that.
Speaker 5 (05:45):
All right, Was there any other reason?
Speaker 2 (05:47):
The other one was I came home from work one
week and my son said that Bessett told him that
you shoot bad people with AR fifteen's.
Speaker 4 (05:53):
George Wagner said he told his family he didn't want
Elizabeth living with them after they returned to Ohio, didn't.
Speaker 2 (06:00):
Feel my son was safe around her.
Speaker 5 (06:02):
Did you want to kill her?
Speaker 2 (06:03):
No?
Speaker 5 (06:04):
What did you want?
Speaker 2 (06:05):
I just wanted her to move out of the house.
Speaker 4 (06:07):
Wanting to drive home the point that George Wagner was
a loving and caring uncle. Attorney John Parker asked George
about his nickname for his niece. George said that when
Jake and Hannah's daughter was a baby, he began to
playfully call her SuDS.
Speaker 2 (06:22):
She was playing one day in a bucket full of
water that she was sitting in and was fielful of soap, and.
Speaker 5 (06:28):
So you gave her the nickname sugs.
Speaker 2 (06:30):
Yes.
Speaker 4 (06:31):
After Hannah's death, George said he would regularly talk to
Jake about his daughter.
Speaker 5 (06:36):
During those conversations. Did you know that he had killed her?
Speaker 1 (06:40):
Now?
Speaker 5 (06:41):
What was his demeanor when you brought up sucks?
Speaker 2 (06:44):
Depends on what I was going on, but usually it
turned into a fight in an argument about what. Anytime
I would save it made a face like Hannah, or
it looked like Hannah, or was acting like Hannah, he
would throw a fit.
Speaker 5 (06:56):
You loved your son quite obviously, right, Yes? Did you
love Yes? Did you kill these people for her?
Speaker 1 (07:04):
Now?
Speaker 5 (07:05):
Would you ever do.
Speaker 2 (07:06):
That now.
Speaker 4 (07:09):
Here's Jeff and Stephanie.
Speaker 8 (07:11):
Do you think, Steph that this testimony humanizess George Wagner
in anyway.
Speaker 9 (07:16):
I mean, look, even if it does humanize him, both
things can be true. I think if we've learned anything
just in the process of making this podcast and following
it for as long as we have, it's just that
certain people can be a lot of things at the
same time. So on the one hand, yes, maybe this
does make him seem more compassionate, and on the other
(07:36):
he's being accused of commiserating to murder of eight people that,
according to this compassionate testimony he knew very well.
Speaker 4 (07:43):
And both things may be true.
Speaker 8 (07:45):
This is a good example of the defense adding a
rational look into George Wagner's thought process. It's very well explained.
It sounds logical. I mean, he makes pretty rational points
about why Jake's relationship with Elizabeth is odd, and it
could raise possible doubts about Elizabeth's judgment, which, as we know,
is the prosecution's goal to poke holes in the defense's
story because all they have to do is just turn
(08:07):
one juror in favor of George.
Speaker 9 (08:09):
I would imagine too, if in fact, he knew what
hot water he and his family were in at that time.
The idea of adding a new person just seems nuts.
On the one hand, it shows that Jake wanted to
marry Elizabeth before they returned to piked In.
Speaker 4 (08:26):
And on the other.
Speaker 9 (08:27):
Side of it, why would you add somebody else to
the equation that has to keep your story straight? And
if George presents himself as empathetic and slightly compassionate or
is adding context to the dynamics, one person can decide
his fate.
Speaker 4 (08:51):
Well, he loved his niece, George said he and Jake
also fought and disagreed about how to raise their children.
Here again, defense attorney John Parker speaking with George Wagner
the fourth.
Speaker 7 (09:05):
Did you and your brother have the same ideas on
how to how to raise your respective children?
Speaker 2 (09:12):
No, not by a long shot.
Speaker 5 (09:14):
Can you explain.
Speaker 2 (09:17):
My brother wanted to basically keep chained up in the
house for her entire life until she graduated college.
Speaker 5 (09:25):
What was your idea of how to raise it?
Speaker 2 (09:31):
My idea of it was, I guess you could say
I spoiled him. I didn't ever tell him that whatever
he wanted, I got it for him, and I got
a lot of hell over.
Speaker 1 (09:39):
That, and my.
Speaker 2 (09:43):
Main plan was that eventually when he was older, all
kids are going to be kids, regardless of what you
say or do, They're going to make their own mistakes.
I've made mine, everybody I knows made theirs, and they're
going to do it anyway, whether you tell them not
to or whether you tell them to do what, they're
going to do it. So my way of fixing that
was I was just going to end up building like
(10:03):
a great big lake one day on whatever piece of
property I bought, and have his own cabin on it
from time he turned as teenager, so when he was
out drinking and party in which he's going to do
all kids do it, that he would be there and
I wouldn't worry about he running up and down the
roads instead of him being running everywhere like I did.
Speaker 5 (10:19):
Did you discuss this with your brother?
Speaker 1 (10:21):
Yes?
Speaker 5 (10:22):
Did you discuss Jake's philosophy on? Yes?
Speaker 2 (10:26):
Yes?
Speaker 5 (10:27):
Is that a source of disagreement between.
Speaker 2 (10:29):
You and you as.
Speaker 7 (10:32):
Well?
Speaker 5 (10:32):
All over the objection?
Speaker 2 (10:35):
Yes, it was a massive disagreement.
Speaker 4 (10:39):
Despite disagreeing on how to raise their children, both Jake
and George agreed on one thing that was at their
mother Angela Wagner should have custody of their kids should
anything happen to them. George said he remembers signing the
backdated custody documents that Angela prepared, claims he did so
(11:01):
without looking at them.
Speaker 2 (11:02):
I came home one day and I was going to
my room, change clothes and go back out the door,
and my mom said that she was filling one out
for my brother and asked if I wanted one that
was more legit than the handwritten when I had. And
I told her if she wanted that, she had like
ten minutes to get it, and I had to get
and I signed. My neighbor walked out.
Speaker 5 (11:19):
Okay, so break that down a little bit, all right.
Do you remember when.
Speaker 2 (11:23):
That was sometime early twenty sixteen?
Speaker 7 (11:26):
All right?
Speaker 5 (11:27):
And the document that you signed, had it been completed?
Was it blank? What did you know about?
Speaker 7 (11:32):
It?
Speaker 2 (11:32):
Was just like a printed out for him.
Speaker 5 (11:34):
Did you read it? No?
Speaker 2 (11:35):
I just signed my name to it.
Speaker 5 (11:37):
And what'd you do after you sign your name?
Speaker 2 (11:38):
I walked out the front door and left again.
Speaker 5 (11:41):
And what was your understanding of this document she wanted
to you de signed? You were coming at it out
and changing.
Speaker 2 (11:47):
I just assumed she was making another one that was
more legitimate looking in my handwritten one.
Speaker 4 (11:55):
Here's Stephanie and Jeff.
Speaker 8 (11:57):
So the defense has been trying to show George as
a Karen attentive, smart with it person and father. But
the whole explanation that he just signed these custody documents
on a whim to me undercuts the.
Speaker 10 (12:10):
Caring and attentive father image.
Speaker 8 (12:12):
It reinforces the idea that he actually didn't really care,
that he would just sign something without thinking about it
or putting any thought into it. His defense attorney attempts
to explain the decision, but I think the whole thing
undercuts what the defense has been trying to do.
Speaker 9 (12:26):
Which is a completely fair point, I would say. In
the totality of what he's been saying in his testimony
so far, they're trying to make him stand alone and
stand apart from his other family members. It also shows
that he was pretty conditioned to do.
Speaker 4 (12:44):
Whatever his mother said.
Speaker 9 (12:45):
Kind Of my takeaway from what the story is they're
telling is that George kind of got accustomed to dealing
with his mother and that his family was always doing
some kind of a scam or a con and that
he just looked the other ways, or through his hands
up and didn't really think much of it.
Speaker 10 (13:02):
Well, the defense can't have it both ways.
Speaker 8 (13:03):
They can't say on the one hand that he is
a carrying, attendive father who thinks everything through and it's
independent of his family, but then also just signs a
document because his mom tells him to and he trusts her.
Those are conflicting ideas that I think the jury will
see throw.
Speaker 4 (13:18):
Despite testifying the day before that he had wanted to
distance himself from his family's criminal activities, George admitted to
chopping up cars for insurance money.
Speaker 5 (13:28):
Did you ever make money other than driving.
Speaker 2 (13:30):
Trucks multiple different ways?
Speaker 10 (13:34):
Did you ever cut up trucks?
Speaker 5 (13:36):
Yes, explain it.
Speaker 2 (13:39):
My grandfather, my mom's father, would have people come by
that would have a diesel Dodge truck or a Diesel
Shavy or whatever contruck really, but they would owe on
the truck and they would want out from under it.
So I'd give him five hundred to one thousand dollars
and they'd give me the truck and give me a
week to chop with up and sell it. And then
(14:00):
they reported stole and turned in on the insurance company.
Speaker 5 (14:04):
And so explain how that works as far as chopping up,
and so you.
Speaker 2 (14:07):
Just take it apart, piece by piece, and then you
sell it's part different parts of different people.
Speaker 5 (14:13):
And you did that when you lived on Peterson. Yes,
do you know approximately how many trucks believe?
Speaker 4 (14:19):
Five Later defense tourney John Parker pivoted to address the
damaging BCI recordings. George Wagner tried to counter the prosecution's
descriptions of some of the most incriminating comments.
Speaker 7 (14:34):
Thinking back on these recordings that we listened to, do
you remember saying on the recordings anything about your mother
and whether she should get an attorney or not. Do
you remember any of that?
Speaker 2 (14:46):
Yes?
Speaker 5 (14:46):
What do you remember?
Speaker 2 (14:49):
The conversations I believe you're talking about is that if
all of us were arrested, that my mother should get
the best one.
Speaker 5 (14:56):
And did you say that?
Speaker 2 (14:57):
Yes?
Speaker 5 (14:57):
Why did you say that?
Speaker 2 (14:59):
Because my mom's the one that watched the kids five
days a week while we were gone. Anyway, they were
used to being with her for five days a week,
and I feared it would be easier on my children.
Speaker 5 (15:07):
What were you thinking, you said?
Speaker 2 (15:10):
I was just going under what basically I understood from
the attorneys that if we got arrested, that it could
take six months, it could take two years to get
to a trial and be able to work things out.
Speaker 7 (15:25):
Do you remember on some of the recordings we listened
to your mother saying something about being framed?
Speaker 5 (15:32):
Yes, what do you recall?
Speaker 2 (15:35):
My mom and brother has said that since the beginning.
That's why I believe that we were being framed, because
they said that they were twisting everything that my mom
and brother had on their phones and laptops, and they
were trying to frame us.
Speaker 7 (15:46):
And was that your mindset during these conversations. Yes, after
listening to these recordings that we heard in court, how
do you feel about what Jake was saying and what.
Speaker 5 (15:58):
You now know he did?
Speaker 2 (16:00):
I now know that he was just flying through his
teeth to me. What about your mother the same thanks,
she's just lying to me from the beginning.
Speaker 7 (16:08):
Did you ever tell your mother referencing these reportings, did
you ever tell your mother you would take the blame
for these murders?
Speaker 1 (16:15):
No?
Speaker 2 (16:15):
I did not.
Speaker 9 (16:19):
So George has testified that he didn't trust his mother.
Speaker 4 (16:22):
We know this.
Speaker 9 (16:23):
He also didn't trust his brother, and he knew he
was being raised frankly by career criminals and in his opinion,
his brother was very selfish and manipulative, and at this point,
whether this is before the murders or even after the murders,
George was supposed to be on the straight and narrow.
Speaker 8 (16:40):
George likes to claim that he knew the whole time
his family were liars and criminals and did not trust them. Yet,
according to his narrative, after the murders, he just chooses
to believe their story about what happened in and around
the Roaded massacre. It just doesn't line up about the
explanation George gave earlier. He knows their liars, yet accept
their statements about the murders. These are the kinds of
(17:01):
things that the prosecution is definitely noticing, and they're definitely
going to bring up a cross because they want to
really highlight them for the jury.
Speaker 4 (17:11):
Attorney John Parker then focused on one of the most
potentially damaging recordings. In it, George Wagner threatened BCI investigator
Ryan Schiderer. George testified that it was not a real threat,
but a comment made out of frustration and anger.
Speaker 7 (17:28):
One of the conversations we listened to in both your
brother and your mother, and you were kind of in
the background, your mother said something about their framing us.
Speaker 5 (17:39):
You remember that, yeah, and that she would take the
death company. Yes, you remember that at that time.
Speaker 7 (17:46):
Did you know your mom and brother were involved in
these murders or committed the murders. No, I think it
was In that same conversation, Jake says he will get
out one way or another.
Speaker 5 (17:56):
Do you remember that.
Speaker 7 (17:57):
Yeah, at that time did you know he had killed
these people?
Speaker 1 (18:01):
No?
Speaker 2 (18:02):
I was on the assumption that he was referring to
if he got framed and was wrongfully convicted.
Speaker 7 (18:09):
And then your voice is in the background and you say,
ain't gonna have the electric.
Speaker 5 (18:15):
Chair or words to that.
Speaker 2 (18:17):
Yes you remember that.
Speaker 5 (18:18):
Yes, what did you mean by that?
Speaker 2 (18:21):
I just get irritated when people were messing with my
family and stuff, especially when I've been out for five
days with no sleep and a massive amounts of caffeine,
and it makes you irritable.
Speaker 7 (18:37):
Did you know at that point that your mom and
brother were actually guilty of anything?
Speaker 11 (18:40):
No?
Speaker 5 (18:41):
Are you guilty of any of these events?
Speaker 12 (18:43):
No?
Speaker 7 (18:45):
On that same recording or conversation, remember hearing your voice say.
Speaker 1 (18:48):
I want to kill Ryan.
Speaker 2 (18:50):
Yes, I said that.
Speaker 5 (18:51):
What did What did you mean by that explain context.
Speaker 2 (18:55):
It was more blind, like when you're angry at somebody
you say stupid stuff like that. Don't mean that you
mean it. I think everybody said that about somebody at
one point or another.
Speaker 7 (19:03):
There was another comment you made to your brother during
one of these full calls about you telling people the
truth is the reason we're in this mass. You remember that, yes,
can you explain it?
Speaker 2 (19:14):
In the beginning, I believe that the finger was pointed
at my family because my brother pissed off the manlies,
which he does to almost everybody he's around.
Speaker 4 (19:26):
We're going to take a break. We'll be back in
a moment. Defense attorney John Parker wrapped up his questioning
of George Wagner by again asking him if he had
any involvement in the murders.
Speaker 5 (19:44):
Did you know your family was going to kill these people? No?
Before it happened to Joe. No, after it happened to
je No.
Speaker 7 (19:53):
Did you ever have any conversations with your brother about No.
Speaker 5 (19:57):
Did you ever talk to your mom about it?
Speaker 2 (19:59):
No?
Speaker 5 (20:00):
You're dead now. If you had known this was going
to happen, what would you do?
Speaker 2 (20:06):
I don't know exactly how, but I would have stopped it.
One way or another.
Speaker 5 (20:09):
Did you love him?
Speaker 9 (20:10):
Yes?
Speaker 5 (20:12):
Did you consider frank you a good friend?
Speaker 2 (20:13):
I consented me my best friend.
Speaker 7 (20:16):
Looking at Wagner Zhibit fifty three, Dash Law, this is
your wedding photo right.
Speaker 2 (20:21):
Yes, you have one arm around, who Tabby?
Speaker 5 (20:24):
You have another arm around?
Speaker 2 (20:25):
Who haves Frankie?
Speaker 4 (20:29):
Here again? Jeff and Stephanie.
Speaker 8 (20:32):
We knew when we saw the photo from George and
Tabitha's wedding a couple of years ago that it was
influential and significant, but singing in court really proves that
to be true. This was a big moment where both
of the families got together and it highlights their relationships.
Speaker 9 (20:47):
We'll share it on our social media, but it's a
pretty astounding photograph and it really paints a picture of
how close they were. And everybody in the photograph is
either dead or accused of their murder.
Speaker 5 (21:00):
The statement cross exam.
Speaker 4 (21:03):
Here's Law on Crime's investigative reporter and Jeanette Levy.
Speaker 11 (21:07):
I was actually part of me felt kind of impressed
watching him on direct because I felt that he just
seemed calm, and he'd obviously been prepped, but he just
seemed to have answers for everything, and that kind of
made me wonder a little bit, because you can't have
you can't always have answers for everything. But he seemed
(21:29):
to have an answer for everything. Obviously, he's been prepped,
he's had years to think about this. But at the
same time, he seemed to be doing a good job
on the stand during direct.
Speaker 5 (21:40):
The prosecution focus did on George Wagen to the force
honesty today on the witness stand.
Speaker 4 (21:46):
After hours of questioning by his own attorney, George Wagner
came under intense scrutiny during the prosecution's cross examination. Prosecutor
and Jacineppa immediately zeroed in on George's claim that he
and Frankie Rodin had a close relationship.
Speaker 1 (22:03):
Let's go ahead and start with Frankie. You consider him
your best friend? Yes, so in twenty twelve, you have
your arm around Frankie, he's standing next to you at
your wedding. Yes, And prior to the homicides, when had
you ever.
Speaker 2 (22:20):
Talked to Frankie the last time beforehand? Yes, probably late December.
Speaker 1 (22:27):
Late December of twenty fifteen. Yes, okay, And isn't it
true that you told us that you didn't even know
Hannah Hazel.
Speaker 2 (22:38):
I have met her one time in my life.
Speaker 1 (22:40):
But at the Border, when you were interviewed in twenty seventeen,
you said you had never met her, that the last
person you knew Frankie to be seen was some girl
named Angel, and that was before you got married in
twenty twelve.
Speaker 2 (22:56):
Angel was before Chelsea.
Speaker 1 (22:58):
You indicated at the border that the last person you
knew Frankie to be seen was some girl named Angel,
and that was when you still had your pulling chuck,
which was before you got married.
Speaker 2 (23:08):
Not that I remember. I could be wrong, but not
that I remember.
Speaker 4 (23:11):
Okay, Well, George Wagner admitted that he hadn't seen Frankie
Rodin in months and had never met Frankie's son. He
explained that he didn't have as much time for friends
when he began long haul driving, also after his own
son was born. However, the prosecution presented an alternative theory.
Speaker 1 (23:30):
So you'd never met Hannah Hazel. Usually a woman's pregnant
for nine months and Ruger was six months at the
time of burse that's at least fifteen months where you
didn't know Hannah Hazel, never met her, never met her.
But Frankie was your best friend.
Speaker 2 (23:45):
Yes, who I considered my best friend who you block
on Facebook, who I did not walk on Facebook.
Speaker 1 (23:52):
Well, he was blocked on your Facebook.
Speaker 2 (23:55):
It might be, but it didn't happen for me, okay.
Speaker 1 (23:58):
And you did not have any Facebook conversations with Frankie either.
Speaker 5 (24:01):
Did you?
Speaker 2 (24:02):
Not very many that I remember.
Speaker 1 (24:04):
As in zero, not that I remember, okay.
Speaker 4 (24:10):
And you can have a question George's relationship with the
mother of Frankie, Roden's oldest child, who had testified earlier
in the child She alleged that there was bad blood
between George and Frankie.
Speaker 1 (24:24):
You remember Chelsea testifying, Yes, okay. Is it true that
you reached out to her at.
Speaker 2 (24:30):
Some point, at one point in time by me and
Chelsea started talking, yes, okay.
Speaker 1 (24:35):
And Frankie found out about.
Speaker 2 (24:37):
That, Yes, and he was upset in the beginning, Yes
to I explained that he was nothing more than friends.
Speaker 1 (24:43):
Okay. So then Chelsea's lying when she said that that
put a you guys held a grudge against each other
after that, and no, your.
Speaker 2 (24:51):
Friendship, we did not grudge against each other after that.
Speaker 1 (24:55):
Okay. So she's lying.
Speaker 2 (24:57):
I'm not saying she's lying, saying she's mistaken.
Speaker 1 (25:00):
Okay, But you never met Hannah Hazel and didn't know
his name.
Speaker 5 (25:04):
No.
Speaker 1 (25:05):
You also indicated that Frankie was a fighter, yes, that
you've seen videos of him fighting. Yes, And that you
would have to go through Frankie to get to anyone
in the family more unlikely. Yeah, I mean that's what
you said.
Speaker 2 (25:21):
Yes, okay, I don't see Frankie let anybody mess.
Speaker 1 (25:24):
With his family, yeah, or Kenneth right.
Speaker 2 (25:27):
I don't see anybody in their family, let anybody mess
with their family.
Speaker 4 (25:31):
And Jakanappa also attacks George Wagner's claims that he hated
his own family and wanted to escape them. She does
this by referencing a conversation Jeorge had in twenty eighteen
with his new girlfriend Josie.
Speaker 1 (25:45):
And I guess you tried, or at least it seemed
yesterday that you were talking about Jake as if you
hardly even liked him at which point in time, any
point in time.
Speaker 2 (25:59):
From early time, childhood, it wasn't that bad with him.
We were just little kids, but the older we got
the worst. He died, okay, and at the last point
I might get ten good days out of one hundred
with him, maybe.
Speaker 1 (26:11):
Okay, But you just saw that text message in twenty
eighteen right to Josie. Yes, where you're saying I'm really
close with my family, you're kind of warning her or
making sure that she's okay with that, because you were
contemplating having her come live with you.
Speaker 2 (26:27):
Right, not at the house house staying in though, Say
it again, not that the house I was staying in.
Speaker 1 (26:32):
Though, But you wanted her to come live with you.
Speaker 2 (26:35):
I want her to move down here eventually, because that's
what she was talking about. But I wasn't going to
let her move in the house with my mother.
Speaker 1 (26:41):
Okay, you didn't want her in the house with your mother, correct,
So in July of twenty eighteen, when you were talking
to your mother on the phone, when you said that
you wanted your own little farm somewhere out west where
I can still make a living and where me and
Jake can live peacefully with you and the kids and
(27:03):
whoever else we decide to bring so we can have
a nice, peaceful life without all of that craft and
the drama from everyone.
Speaker 2 (27:10):
Am I allowed to explain this?
Speaker 1 (27:12):
Did you say that?
Speaker 2 (27:14):
Yes? I said that? Okay, Am I allowed to go
into details this? Sure, it doesn't mean live in the
same house. It means by a bigger farm, and he
has a house on one corner. She has a house
on one corner, and I've got a house on corner.
Speaker 1 (27:27):
Okay, kind of like what you guys were considering doing
when you moved to Missouri. Right.
Speaker 4 (27:32):
In a further effort to discredit George Wagner's testimony, the
prosecution brought out transcripts of his interview with BCI agents
at the Montana border in twenty seventeen and challenged him
on the discrepancy between what he said then and what
he was saying now on the witness stand.
Speaker 1 (27:51):
I know you talked about your mother and you said, well.
Speaker 2 (27:54):
You describe her to me, she is thanks you better
than everybody. Thanks. Everything has to be done her way.
I would probably say that I could put selfish in
that manipulative.
Speaker 1 (28:08):
And again, I mean, this is new and different than
what you told us at the border.
Speaker 5 (28:12):
Right.
Speaker 1 (28:13):
That's not what you said about your mother at the border.
Speaker 5 (28:15):
Right.
Speaker 2 (28:16):
I don't remember what I said at the border.
Speaker 1 (28:17):
Okay, Well, you were asked if your mom was controlling.
I bet your mom is so controlling that she probably
even organized the whole thing. And you said, my mom
is not controlling. You were asked your mom's not controlling,
you said no at all. Do you remember saying that.
Speaker 2 (28:34):
I don't remember saying that.
Speaker 1 (28:35):
Okay, Well, is that true.
Speaker 2 (28:38):
That she's not controlling?
Speaker 1 (28:40):
Correct?
Speaker 2 (28:41):
As a before my tenth birthday, she wasn't so bad
that I can remember, but she got worse as the
years went by.
Speaker 1 (28:48):
Okay. So in twenty seventeen, when you were asked that
question and you said she's not controlling.
Speaker 2 (28:53):
She tried to do or not as far as actually
controlling me, No, she didn't, okay, but she tried to
control me. If that answers your question.
Speaker 1 (29:03):
Well, I'm just trying to figure out what the truth is,
considering you said one thing at the border, and you
said an entirely different thing yesterday and today.
Speaker 4 (29:12):
So, despite testifying that his mother was manipulative and selfish,
George tried to explain why he was willing to sign
away custody of a son.
Speaker 1 (29:25):
You talked about these custody documents that you and your
brother signed, and your mother forged the signature for panah
On correct, all in the same magical day.
Speaker 5 (29:37):
Correct y.
Speaker 1 (29:38):
You obviously heard the testimony that that happened at the
kitchen table in your house.
Speaker 2 (29:42):
It was in the kitchen.
Speaker 1 (29:43):
In the kitchen, okay, So you agree with that.
Speaker 2 (29:47):
I agree. I signed my name to mine in the
kitchen and left.
Speaker 1 (29:49):
Okay, And you indicated you just sign that. Yes, so
you trust your mother.
Speaker 2 (29:58):
I trust my mother seventy five eight percent. There's some
parts of her I don't trust.
Speaker 1 (30:04):
Okay, But you signed this document saying if you were
to be killed or something happened to you, she would
get your child.
Speaker 2 (30:12):
Who else would I leave him to? I have no
one else to leave him to.
Speaker 1 (30:16):
Yeah, but it was dated twenty fifteen, and that's not
when you signed those documents.
Speaker 2 (30:23):
I didn't know what date was on it. I signed
it early sixteen.
Speaker 1 (30:27):
You signed it in April sometimes sixteen.
Speaker 2 (30:29):
I don't know the exact date.
Speaker 1 (30:31):
Yeah, well, obviously sometime after April third or twenty sixteen,
because that was when it was printed.
Speaker 5 (30:35):
Off the computer.
Speaker 2 (30:36):
Could be I don't know the exact date, but it
was sixteen. I didn't pay much attention to another seeing
it had my signature.
Speaker 4 (30:44):
And Jacineppa then showed George Wagner the custody documents that
he signed. She once again pressed George and why he
signed them without paying attention.
Speaker 2 (30:53):
You could look at that and it's the document that signed,
So that is.
Speaker 1 (30:58):
Your signature, yeah, okay. And you see the date at
the bottom there, yes, okay. And it's that consistent with
your experience. As far as your computer spitting out the
date something is printed.
Speaker 2 (31:14):
Off the computer, I couldn't tell you, and I don't
use computers that much.
Speaker 1 (31:17):
But this is dated March eleventh or twenty fifteen. Yes,
and it clearly was not signed in March eleventh or
two fifteen.
Speaker 2 (31:25):
No, I signed it the day it was printed off.
Speaker 1 (31:28):
So I mean you realize it's forgery to backdate a document, right, yes, okay.
And it's forgery to sign somebody else's name to a document.
Speaker 2 (31:38):
Yes, I can see that, Okay. I just don't see
how me signing my name is forgery.
Speaker 1 (31:43):
Well, it was backdated.
Speaker 2 (31:45):
I didn't know that the page was, from my understanding blank,
from what I can remember, when I signed.
Speaker 1 (31:49):
My name, she just signed your name to a completely blank.
Speaker 2 (31:52):
Document, to a custody document. She said, sign my name.
I signed it, walked out.
Speaker 1 (31:56):
But you wanted to leave your child with your mother.
Speaker 2 (32:00):
If something was ever that happened to me? Yes, I had.
There was no one else to leave it to him again.
Speaker 1 (32:06):
You had lots of conversations about concerns about the handwriting
that was going to be taken because.
Speaker 2 (32:12):
It's something to do with law enforcement, and I was
raised at law enforcements. Crooking tries to twist everything.
Speaker 1 (32:18):
Well, you were raised to commit a lot of crimes.
Speaker 2 (32:21):
I was not that it was right, but that's how
I was raised. It took me a long time to
realize that it was wrong.
Speaker 1 (32:27):
And that no matter when did you realize that?
Speaker 2 (32:31):
When I realized that my dad was wrong and it
was actually hurting people.
Speaker 1 (32:35):
So that particular crime you realized was actually hurting people, right,
the stealing of stuff out of the traitors, Yes, but
you didn't swear off a life of crime just that
particular when you realize there actually were victims.
Speaker 2 (32:47):
Indeed, I went with the stealing fuel and loads. I
quit in late fourteen. I believe the last thing I
can remember doing, aside from deer hunting, that was being
considered illegal, was the Duramax being. Rick asked after that
it was just dear honey.
Speaker 4 (33:06):
Despite his claim of changing his ways and leaving his
life of crime behind him, Angie Caineppa questioned George Wagner
about the illegal activities he continued to engage in, including
using a fake address to get his trucking license.
Speaker 2 (33:20):
You that.
Speaker 1 (33:22):
So it's an application for a driver's license, correct?
Speaker 2 (33:25):
Yes? Okay?
Speaker 1 (33:26):
And what address did you put down there?
Speaker 2 (33:29):
Ok?
Speaker 1 (33:30):
Okay? That is not where you were living.
Speaker 2 (33:32):
No, it's my grandmother's form, I remember. Correct, it has
something to do with l right, now, that's why used
that address.
Speaker 1 (33:39):
Well, you're providing false information to a state agency. Correct.
Speaker 2 (33:42):
Yes.
Speaker 4 (33:44):
Prosecutor Angie Caineppa then showed George Wagner a series of
gun receipts and purchase forms.
Speaker 1 (33:52):
So you know that you have to put accurate information
on those forms, correct, Yes, it's a federal offense not
to But you're purchasing a firearm, right, okay, So if
you could go ahead and look at it and tell
us what address you put down there?
Speaker 2 (34:06):
It's eight or five Vessel Hill.
Speaker 1 (34:07):
Rid Okay, but that's not relived.
Speaker 2 (34:09):
Not the time my license had expired, and when I
bought my firearms, I was advised just to use what
was on the driver's license. I had then taking time
to change it.
Speaker 1 (34:20):
Actually, that's not permitted.
Speaker 2 (34:22):
That's what that was advised five other people I bought
them from. They said to put the addresses on my license.
Speaker 1 (34:27):
You understand that making any false, oral or written statement,
or exhibiting any false or misrepresented identification with respect to
this transaction is a crime punishable as a felony. Yes,
under federal law. Yes, but at least three, at least
these three forms, you did not provide accurate information correct.
Speaker 2 (34:46):
As far as the driver's license address up.
Speaker 4 (34:52):
After George Wagner admitted lying on government firearm forms, Kneppa
move to point out other key discrepancies and George Wagner's testimony,
particularly around when he went to bed the night of
the murderers.
Speaker 6 (35:06):
Prosecutors saying twenty seventeen, Wagner told investigators that he'd gone
to bed at twelve thirty am on the night of
the murders after watching a movie with his family. However,
in his testimony today, he claimed it was around ten pm.
Speaker 1 (35:20):
You said that the night of the homicides you went
to bed at ten o'clock.
Speaker 2 (35:25):
Can issue if I remember correctly, It's been.
Speaker 1 (35:27):
A long time, okay, all right, and so do you
recall again being interviewed at the border and saying that
the four of you, well, the six of you. Actually,
your mom, your dad, your brother, yourself were watching a
movie and you were up until you didn't go to
(35:47):
bed till twelve thirty.
Speaker 2 (35:49):
Don't remember what kime was. Okay.
Speaker 1 (35:53):
Do you remember telling the border at the border, the
agents when they asked you about what you did that night,
you saying that your mom had fixed cheeseburgers for you
and how delicious they were, and she makes the best
and maybe one day she could make them for them.
Speaker 2 (36:07):
I don't remember that now. I'm not saying I didn't say.
I just said I don't remember.
Speaker 13 (36:11):
Okay.
Speaker 1 (36:12):
You indicated that you watched a fairy movie. Don't remember
what a movie that wanted to watch.
Speaker 2 (36:18):
I just I remember watching a movie of the kids
at this point, I don't remember what it was. It's
been a long time.
Speaker 1 (36:23):
And you indicated that that is when your son would
usually go to sleep as well.
Speaker 2 (36:28):
My son usually went to sleep ten or eleven usually. Okay,
there is what I can remember.
Speaker 1 (36:34):
Is there a reason that you would lie to the
people at the border.
Speaker 2 (36:37):
I'm not saying I did. I'm saying I don't remember
what time to like told them that, Okay, I mean
it may have been I just from my remembory. Now,
I remember going to bed around tennish. I could be
wrong about that, that's what I remember.
Speaker 1 (36:48):
Yeah, Well, because now we know that Chris Senior and
Gary were being killed at eleven PM, right, I don't
know that. You don't know that up. No.
Speaker 4 (37:03):
Previously, Jake Wagner testified that George participated in the murders. However,
Jake said that George did not fire any shots.
Speaker 1 (37:12):
You don't know that. That's when your dad had Chris
call his phone and you saw the phone calls.
Speaker 2 (37:18):
Correct, I'm saying I wasn't there. I don't know when
Chris had.
Speaker 1 (37:22):
Died, right, Okay, you know that's what Jake said.
Speaker 2 (37:27):
I know my brother's time is off on everything that's
been showed in here.
Speaker 1 (37:32):
So now we know, at least according to Jake, that
Chris Senior and Gary were killed at eleven o'clock.
Speaker 5 (37:40):
Right.
Speaker 1 (37:40):
I think that's what he said, which makes your story
at the border impossible.
Speaker 2 (37:45):
Right Again, I don't remember exactly everything I said to
the border.
Speaker 1 (37:49):
Well, I assume you were trying your best to tell
the truth when you were interviewed.
Speaker 2 (37:52):
At the border, correct to my knowledge of what I remembered.
Speaker 1 (37:56):
Okay, I'm not interested as much as what you said,
as much as do you agree that it would be
more accurate back then.
Speaker 2 (38:07):
I can't agree yes or no because I just don't know.
Speaker 1 (38:09):
Okay, you agree that you were trying to be honest
with the agents. Certainly weren't trying to lie to them.
Speaker 2 (38:15):
Yes, I agree on that you certainly weren't trying.
Speaker 1 (38:16):
To provide a cover story for you and your brother
and your father and your mother. Right, So this whole
idea that we're going to coordinate our response and say
that we were all together a family night movie night watching,
watching a video. Surely you didn't just make this up
when you told no the people at the border. It
(38:39):
just happened to be the same story that you guys
had agreed in advance to tell.
Speaker 2 (38:44):
There was no agreement in advance. My dad came down,
my kid didn't want him to leave.
Speaker 1 (38:49):
So your story today or yesterday is that you actually
went to that at ten.
Speaker 2 (38:56):
From what I remember at this point in time, I
believe it was tannish.
Speaker 1 (38:59):
Okay, So how could Jake and your father have been
up on the hill killing Chris Senior and Geary less
than an hour after you went into your bedroom.
Speaker 2 (39:13):
I can't answer that. I don't know.
Speaker 4 (39:16):
Here's James Pilcher, longtime investigative reporter in Cincinnati now at
Local twelve.
Speaker 3 (39:22):
When George Wagner testified that he went to bed at
ten o'clock, the two special prosecutors, Angela Kaneppa and Andy
Wilson looked at each other almost like pointed at each
other like, haha, we have not heard what George had
to tell Ohio BCI when they stopped the family at
the Montana border on their way back from Alaska in
(39:44):
May June twenty seventeen. They have not played a lot
of that. They have not played any of that. They
played some of jakes, they played Angela's, but they've not
played any of George's. And I think there was a
strategic reason behind that, because they might have expected that
George was going to testify for himself and they did
not want him to hear what he had to say
(40:05):
back then, so he could they can catch him in
a contradiction, and they did and it was a big one.
So they spent a lot of time and they hammered
him on Angela Caneppa, if you listen to it, he
hammers a moment and I think if I'm saying there's
a juror, if they paid his closest attention to this
trial as I have, that's that's a red flag.
Speaker 4 (40:29):
The prosecution also hammered George Wagner on other red flags
as well. This included denying any knowledge that Jake owned
a Walther Colt twenty two pistol.
Speaker 1 (40:39):
Have you ever owned a nineteen eleven twenty two?
Speaker 2 (40:43):
No?
Speaker 1 (40:44):
Has your brother ever owned one?
Speaker 2 (40:46):
Too? More knowledge? No?
Speaker 1 (40:48):
So his testimony he had this for more than a year.
You were unaware of that.
Speaker 2 (40:53):
If he's owned it that long, I didn't know about it.
Speaker 1 (40:55):
Okay, Well, obviously there's a picture of him holding that
weapon in two thousand fifteen.
Speaker 2 (41:01):
Now I see what the pictures his the back then.
I didn't think.
Speaker 1 (41:04):
That he hid it from you. What is it he
hit it from you?
Speaker 2 (41:08):
If he's had it that long, he must have.
Speaker 1 (41:11):
Why she's got a curiosity. Why would you do that?
Because you guys keep those your guns in your safe right.
Speaker 2 (41:17):
According to my brother's statement, he said that he'd owned
every one of them guns on that list, and I've
not seen over half of what's under his name.
Speaker 1 (41:25):
You feel to answer the question, you guys, keep your
guns in.
Speaker 2 (41:29):
Your safe, correct most of them.
Speaker 1 (41:31):
So you're saying he owns guns you don't know of.
Speaker 2 (41:33):
I'm saying it's possible. I've owned hundreds of young.
Speaker 1 (41:36):
Over a year. He owned a gun and you were
oblivious to it.
Speaker 2 (41:39):
It's very well possible.
Speaker 4 (41:44):
Here again journalist James Pilcher.
Speaker 3 (41:47):
George has said he never saw and has never seen
the nineteen eleven Walter Colt twenty two caliber that was
used in the murders, even though agen Scheider texted them
a picture of Jake holding it that they got off
at Jake's phone, so they'd never seen that gun before. Ever,
(42:08):
he bought that handgun had a gun show in Columbus
a couple of years before the murders at the end
of January, on the same day that George bought a
different gun at the same gun show. They have the
paperwork showing that they didn't buy their guns at the
same vendor. So George was like, I didn't even know,
(42:31):
really know Jake was there. So if I'm a juror,
I'm thinking, wait a minute, you mean to sell out
of the YouTube boys went up there separately to the
same gun show and bought guns on the same day
and didn't know each other was there while your father's there.
It was a small but key moment. At the end
of the day.
Speaker 4 (42:54):
During one of his conversations with Jake after the murders,
George was recorded by BCI agent complaining that Jake could
not tell a lie. All this with George insisting that
Jake destroy evidence.
Speaker 1 (43:06):
And you actually talk about that with Jake again, about
how his my whole life, I've been in trouble with
you because of you telling on everything and telling honesty. Yes,
And everybody says, my anger mouth is going to get
us in trouble, but it's always been your honesty that
(43:28):
gets us in trouble. Correct. And you say, children, you
have to tell on yourself, children, you have to tell
on me.
Speaker 2 (43:36):
Yeah, as we're children, that's what I'm referring to his eyes,
when we're children.
Speaker 1 (43:42):
And you also tell him that he should have gotten
rid of the phone and he should have smashed the laptop. Correct, Yes,
and again that's because we got a lot of evidence
from those items.
Speaker 2 (43:55):
My understanding of it was that he kept saying, you
guys were twisting stuff that you found on it to
try and frame him.
Speaker 4 (44:07):
Let's stop here for another break. Nearing the end of
her cross examination, Prosecutor Anjacineppa brought up George's long history
of calling female family members derogatory names. This included one
(44:27):
incident where George complained about Jake's four year old daughter.
Speaker 1 (44:31):
This is the call where you said she can't keep
her nose out of somebody else's life. She being yes,
and George, she's four years old. Yes, you said she
does anything deliberate you to try and crush him deliberately.
Bitch got to ruin everything. You referred to your niece,
(44:57):
your four year niece, as a bitch because she was.
Speaker 2 (45:02):
I'll explain this before five six days with no sleeping caffeine.
You say stuff you don't really mean.
Speaker 1 (45:08):
Yeah, you said a lot of things.
Speaker 2 (45:09):
Makes you irritable. Sure, and she went around telling my
son that she had a new mom and he didn't.
Speaker 1 (45:19):
You called her bitch. You remember calling your grandmother, Frederica
a crazy whore.
Speaker 2 (45:25):
I don't remember that.
Speaker 1 (45:26):
You don't remember telling your mom to calm that crazy
hor down.
Speaker 2 (45:29):
I don't remember that conversation, am I saying as possible? Yeah,
I've probably said something like that. I've said a lot
of stuff on my being upset that I really didn't mean,
but I've said it because I've been days without sleeping,
massive amounts of caffeine.
Speaker 1 (45:42):
Sure, And I mean you called Randa, I think a
lazy crackhore.
Speaker 2 (45:49):
I think I've called her that more than once, okay.
Speaker 1 (45:56):
And you told the agents at the border that you
thought that Hannah turned into a.
Speaker 2 (46:02):
Whore from what everybody else will say, okay.
Speaker 1 (46:08):
And that was after she had left Jake.
Speaker 2 (46:10):
Well everybody else was saying after she left Jake. To
my understanding, I don't think she ever really did, but
that's what everybody else will say, okay.
Speaker 1 (46:20):
And you called certainly called Tabby a whore many times,
and referred to Batman as a whore just like Tabby
many times.
Speaker 4 (46:35):
Here again, Antinnette Levy, he's calling his niece.
Speaker 11 (46:38):
You know, I think he called his niece a bit.
Speaker 2 (46:41):
She called his.
Speaker 11 (46:41):
Sister in law horror, I mean, and he attributes that
to you know, I drive on the road and I'm
up a long time, and you know, drink caffeine, and
I just think to myself, like I could see that.
Speaker 10 (46:56):
I mean, I mean, I've been wound.
Speaker 11 (46:58):
Up before and ranted and and said things and you know,
you go.
Speaker 2 (47:04):
Off on a.
Speaker 11 (47:06):
Tirade, but at the same time, in one of my
tirades are rants. I've not spoken about a four year
old child like that.
Speaker 4 (47:14):
Unable to explain the many inconsistencies in his testimony, George
Wagner pushed back against angiecin Eppu's questions. He insisted in
one of the most tense exchanges of the day, that
his mother and brother are lying, and.
Speaker 2 (47:30):
My mom and brother are lying to you.
Speaker 1 (47:32):
They have been like everybody else, Like everybody else is lying,
like Tabitha is lying, Chelsea's lying, like everybody to talk
about Frankie's lying. Everybody is lying except for you.
Speaker 2 (47:44):
I did not say Chelsea is lying. I said she's mistaken.
Speaker 1 (47:47):
Right, And even though you've not managed to tell us
anything consistent with what you told the agents at the
border in twenty seventeen, you're the one that's telling the truth.
Speaker 2 (47:57):
I don't remember exactly everything I said the border.
Speaker 1 (48:02):
That's not the question. The question is what you're saying
does today is not consistent with what you've said at
the border.
Speaker 2 (48:12):
Ye. I can't say if you guse or not because
I don't remember everything I've said there.
Speaker 1 (48:15):
But everybody else is lying.
Speaker 2 (48:17):
I'm saying that my mom and Tabby Jake's lying about
that night. We're gonna mistake in one. They're confusing two
different events into one.
Speaker 8 (48:26):
Angie Caneppa trying to trip up George, and he comes
across as very calm, very prepared, very even keeled. Does
it work again? He only needs to convince one juror
that he is telling the truth and that Jake and
his mom are lying. Caneppa is trying to rattle him,
but it just doesn't really seem to work. And at
the same time, Kinnepa makes the point for George to
be telling the truth, a lot of other people need
(48:48):
to be lying, which is a good point because Jake
and Angela were not able to corroborate their stories. They
have both been in separate jails this entire time with
no communication, so the fact that their truth stories matchup
is a pretty good indicator that they perhaps they're telling
the truth, because George could be lying all by himself,
but how could those who have the same story without
communicating first.
Speaker 9 (49:09):
They may have practiced a script to some degree before
they're arrests. They might have been planning for this moment
all along.
Speaker 10 (49:18):
But on the other hand, Jake Wagner and Angela Wagner
are both.
Speaker 8 (49:21):
The state's witnesses, so that means they've been working with
the prosecution and their team to figure out what.
Speaker 10 (49:26):
They're going to say on the stand. In conversation with Mike.
Speaker 8 (49:29):
Allen, lawyers have to tread very lately about coaching witnesses
on what they're going to say, But we do know
they can prepare them, and prepare them they do. They
spend hours talking over every single possible detail.
Speaker 4 (49:44):
Here's Jeff speaking with attorney and legal analyst Mike Allen.
Speaker 8 (49:51):
We heard all this technical stuff for so long, like
the ballistics and the shoeprint, all these things, but I
think it ultimately comes down to its what George said
versus what Angela Jake said like that is what I
think the jury probably most weighed. Do you see it
that same way or yeah?
Speaker 13 (50:05):
I mean it would come down to credibility from George
and Angela, And I think the credibility goes with Angela
because George any number of times just said I don't recall,
I don't remember, I didn't count him up, but there
are a lot of times that he said that and
I don't recall hearing that in Angela or Jake's testimony
(50:29):
for that matter. It was just pretty straightforward. So I
think if you didn't have the physical evidence and it's
you know, it's George against those two, I think I
think they win and George doesn't because a lot of
things he didn't remember, and he contradicted himself on a
number of occasions.
Speaker 8 (50:48):
And also, I mean, it's Jake and Angela. They have
not communicated, so it's not like their comparing notes. If
their stories lineup, isn't that must be worth a lot
more than George by himself.
Speaker 13 (50:59):
No question about it. Because they were kept separate. There's
no way they could get together out in the hallway
and they get their story straight. So yeah, that, I mean,
that gives them I think, another reason why they have
the greater credibility here.
Speaker 4 (51:16):
But the prosecution wasn't quite done highlighting George Wagner's incriminating comments.
Speaker 1 (51:21):
You indicated that you wanted to kill Special Agent Schier. Correct.
I said that, yes, okay, Jake didn't threaten him. Jake
did not threaten him, not to my knowledge. You remember
telling your brother that you should go to BCI and
(51:44):
tell them that he'll he'll rat you guys out because
he's the biggest rat there is.
Speaker 2 (51:50):
Yes, I remember that, okay.
Speaker 1 (51:53):
And do you remember also telling your mother, let me
tell you something. I love you the only reason and
I'm sorry you're gonna hate when I say this. Everything
that you and dad have ever gotten in trouble for
with them mother frickers. The only reason they ever got
away with that craft was because every time somebody caved,
(52:15):
everybody crumbled. I ain't caving and I ain't crumbling. Do
you remember saying that?
Speaker 2 (52:21):
Don't remember them exact words, but I do remember roughly.
Speaker 1 (52:24):
The conversation, okay, And that was played in overcourt.
Speaker 2 (52:28):
Thanks, so ya, okay?
Speaker 1 (52:32):
And is that your philosophy? You don't gave and you
don't crumble.
Speaker 2 (52:37):
Now, for what I believe you're trying to say it
as wow, I.
Speaker 1 (52:42):
Don't specimically you're talking about anytime they got in trouble
with law enforcements because somebody cracked.
Speaker 2 (52:48):
I don't believe you should plead out to something you
didn't do.
Speaker 4 (52:53):
After the prosecution ended their cross examination of George Wagner,
his defense attorney John Parker once again re asked him
several questions about the murders.
Speaker 7 (53:04):
George, just a few follow up questions, probably been along
a couple of days before you, hasn't it appairly?
Speaker 5 (53:11):
George?
Speaker 7 (53:12):
Did you ever see Jake by the nineteen eleven No?
Speaker 5 (53:16):
Did you know he owned one?
Speaker 2 (53:17):
No?
Speaker 9 (53:18):
One.
Speaker 7 (53:18):
Did you go up on Union Hill Road and participate
in these murders in any way?
Speaker 1 (53:23):
No?
Speaker 5 (53:24):
Did you plan these murders?
Speaker 4 (53:26):
No?
Speaker 5 (53:26):
Did you know they were going to have?
Speaker 1 (53:28):
No?
Speaker 7 (53:29):
Did you know after the murders that they in fact
your family had been involved?
Speaker 2 (53:33):
No? Not until my rubbish proffert.
Speaker 7 (53:35):
And did you know did you ever go out to
Left Fork Road where.
Speaker 5 (53:39):
Kid was killed?
Speaker 1 (53:40):
No?
Speaker 5 (53:41):
Has anybody paid you anything for your testing?
Speaker 1 (53:44):
No?
Speaker 5 (53:45):
Has anybody given you anything for your testimony?
Speaker 7 (53:47):
Now?
Speaker 5 (53:48):
Did the state off you a plea bargain for your testiment?
Speaker 2 (53:50):
No?
Speaker 5 (53:51):
Are you telling the truth?
Speaker 2 (53:52):
Yes?
Speaker 5 (53:53):
Your life is on the line.
Speaker 9 (53:55):
Yes?
Speaker 5 (53:55):
Are you telling the truth?
Speaker 4 (53:56):
Yes?
Speaker 5 (53:57):
As you answer to God?
Speaker 1 (53:59):
Yes?
Speaker 4 (54:00):
And if you yes, with one last chance to potentially
trip up George Wagner prosecutor and Jacanappa asked him what
happens to him if he admits to killing the Rodents?
Speaker 1 (54:17):
What happens to you if you come in here and
admit that you and your brother and your father went
up to Union Hill Road that night and then out
to Left Fork Road that night and slaughtered perfectly innocent
people who lay asleep in their beds, two of them
(54:37):
with babies in the bed with them that, from all testimony,
were actively nursing their infants. What happens to you if
you come in here on that stand and.
Speaker 2 (54:49):
Admit to that, do you want to hear? Answer? Well,
I feel it should happen to anybody that would do that.
Speaker 1 (54:55):
I want to know what happens to you if you
come in hear and admit that.
Speaker 2 (55:02):
What should happen to anybody is they should have death
given to them.
Speaker 1 (55:07):
And the biggest difference you agree between you and your
brother is that when he does wrong things, he tells
about it and you.
Speaker 2 (55:16):
Don't when we were children.
Speaker 5 (55:17):
Yes, question, you may step down now.
Speaker 12 (55:22):
Since there's no DNA evidence connecting George Wagner to any
of the crime scenes, jurors will have to decide who
they believe him or Jakein and his mom Angela, who
have already said under oath that George Wagner was part
of the plot to kill multiple people.
Speaker 4 (55:39):
More on that next time. For more information on the
case and relevant photos, follow us on Instagram at kati
Underscore Studios. The Pithon Masker is produced by Stephanie Leidecker,
Jeff Shane, Connor Powell, Andrew Arnell, Gabriel Castillo and me
Courtney Armstrong. Editing and sound designed by Jeff Ti Music
(56:02):
by Jared Aston. The Pike did Maascer is a production
of iHeartRadio and Katie's Studios. For more podcasts from iHeart Radio,
visit the iHeartRadio app, Apple Podcasts, or wherever you listen
to your favorite shows.
So she's lying.
Speaker 2 (00:03):
I'm not saying she's I'm saying she's.
Speaker 1 (00:05):
Mistaken, but everybody else is lying.
Speaker 2 (00:09):
I'm saying that my mom and Tabby Jake's lying about
that night.
Speaker 3 (00:13):
Angela Caneppa. If you listen to it, she hammers and moment,
and I think if I'm saying, there's a your if
they paid as closest attention to this trial as I have,
that's a red flag.
Speaker 1 (00:25):
What happens to you if you come in here and
admit that you and your brother and your father slaughtered
perfectly innocent people who lay asleep in their beds.
Speaker 2 (00:37):
Do you want to hear answer? Well, I feel it
should happen to anybody that would do that.
Speaker 1 (00:41):
I want to know what happens to you if you
come in here and admit that.
Speaker 2 (00:48):
What should happen to anybody is they should have death
given to them.
Speaker 4 (00:58):
This is the pipeson Masaker returned to Pike County season four,
episode twenty three, George Wagner's final day on the stand.
I'm Courtney Armstrong, a television producer at Katie's Studios with
Stephanie Leidacer and Jeff Shane. It's important to note that
(01:18):
George Wagner Fourth has pleaded not guilty and has maintained
he did not kill anyone. His father, Billy Wagner, whose
trial is upcoming, has also pleaded not guilty to all
charges after answering more than seven hours worth of questions
from his own lawyer the day before. George Wagner's surprising
testimony continues for a second day. Wagner continued defending himself,
(01:44):
denying any involvement in the murders. He insisted he took
no part in planning or covering up the brutal murders.
But on a second day of testimony, George Wagner faced
a far more aggressive line of questioning from prosecutor Auntiekneppa,
questioned his credibility, honesty, and the multiple inconsistencies from previous
(02:05):
statements George Wagner gave to investigators.
Speaker 5 (02:08):
George Wagner back on the stand for a second day.
Speaker 6 (02:11):
He is on trial for murder in the Pie County
massacre that happened in twenty sixteen.
Speaker 4 (02:16):
Wearing a light blue collared dress shirt, a dark tie,
and black vest, George Wagner the fourth returned to the
stand on the forty third day of his trial, defense
attorney John Parker started the morning by asking George Wagner
about his use of Facebook.
Speaker 5 (02:31):
Now, did you use Facebook.
Speaker 2 (02:36):
On and off?
Speaker 4 (02:37):
Wagner said he occasionally used Facebook to buy and sell
items like truck parts on its marketplace app, and to
talk to friends, including Frankie Rodin.
Speaker 7 (02:46):
With respect of Facebook, did you ever know of your
mother to.
Speaker 5 (02:52):
Use your account?
Speaker 2 (02:53):
Not to my knowledge.
Speaker 7 (02:55):
Did you ever know whether your mother obtained a password?
Speaker 2 (02:59):
Not to my knowledge?
Speaker 4 (03:00):
However, George testified his mother was constantly trying to access
the social media passwords.
Speaker 5 (03:07):
Did you ever have.
Speaker 7 (03:08):
An issue with your mother trying to access your fault her?
Speaker 4 (03:14):
Not?
Speaker 2 (03:15):
Really, I'm not gonna say accessing about constantly looking over
my shoulder trying to get the password to it. I
changed my password like daily because she would try and
figure out what my password was. How do you know
that she was always looking over my shoulder when I
put my password in?
Speaker 5 (03:28):
Is that before the murders?
Speaker 2 (03:30):
Far back as I've had an iPhone.
Speaker 4 (03:32):
George also said he was aware of the GoFundMe page
his brother Jake created, but also that he had nothing
to do with it. Defense attorney John Parker then shifted
the conversation to George's mindset after the murders and now
I viewed the police investigation. After being questioned at the
Montana border in twenty seventeen, George Wagner said he didn't
(03:53):
know if his shrug was bugged and his phone was tapped,
but he said he assumed they were during.
Speaker 5 (03:58):
That time frame.
Speaker 7 (03:59):
What was your mindset, so to speak about the investigation
and whether your family was guilty or not doing What
was your mindset?
Speaker 5 (04:08):
Though?
Speaker 2 (04:09):
I believed that they were just trying to frame my
mom and my brother and my family for the fact
that they didn't have anybody else to look at.
Speaker 5 (04:17):
Why did you think that?
Speaker 2 (04:18):
Because I was raised to believe it all law enforcement
was crooked, and I thought they just wanted to close
the case and didn't care about it being right or wrong.
Speaker 4 (04:25):
The fear of law enforcement also led George to think
his brother Jake's new wife, Elizabeth, was likely an informant.
Speaker 2 (04:32):
From the way I understood it was that BCI would
stoop to any level to get information about my family,
and that they would try and send a woman in
there to get close to me or my brother and
get information.
Speaker 1 (04:45):
Right.
Speaker 7 (04:46):
Does that explain some of the conversations we heard on
the recordings between you and your brother about that.
Speaker 2 (04:52):
Yes, because she didn't know my brother at all and
married him within like three months, and I just didn't trust,
not with everything that our family was being accused of.
Speaker 4 (05:03):
George also testified he questioned Elizabeth's motives and that he
did not trust her.
Speaker 1 (05:09):
Why not?
Speaker 2 (05:11):
Multiple different reasons?
Speaker 5 (05:12):
Take your time and.
Speaker 2 (05:15):
Reason one. When she first broke up my brother and
then got back with him, I just thought it was
weird that somebody who met a complete stranger would want
to be with somebody who was accused of what we
were being accused.
Speaker 5 (05:27):
Of, all right? Were there other reason?
Speaker 1 (05:29):
Yes?
Speaker 2 (05:31):
The second reason was she had come up with a
story about her childhood that she and her brothers and
her mother was part of some cult for some church
in Texas, and I had guessed the church ended up
selling kids the sex, slavery or something like that.
Speaker 5 (05:45):
All right, Was there any other reason?
Speaker 2 (05:47):
The other one was I came home from work one
week and my son said that Bessett told him that
you shoot bad people with AR fifteen's.
Speaker 4 (05:53):
George Wagner said he told his family he didn't want
Elizabeth living with them after they returned to Ohio, didn't.
Speaker 2 (06:00):
Feel my son was safe around her.
Speaker 5 (06:02):
Did you want to kill her?
Speaker 2 (06:03):
No?
Speaker 5 (06:04):
What did you want?
Speaker 2 (06:05):
I just wanted her to move out of the house.
Speaker 4 (06:07):
Wanting to drive home the point that George Wagner was
a loving and caring uncle. Attorney John Parker asked George
about his nickname for his niece. George said that when
Jake and Hannah's daughter was a baby, he began to
playfully call her SuDS.
Speaker 2 (06:22):
She was playing one day in a bucket full of
water that she was sitting in and was fielful of soap, and.
Speaker 5 (06:28):
So you gave her the nickname sugs.
Speaker 2 (06:30):
Yes.
Speaker 4 (06:31):
After Hannah's death, George said he would regularly talk to
Jake about his daughter.
Speaker 5 (06:36):
During those conversations. Did you know that he had killed her?
Speaker 1 (06:40):
Now?
Speaker 5 (06:41):
What was his demeanor when you brought up sucks?
Speaker 2 (06:44):
Depends on what I was going on, but usually it
turned into a fight in an argument about what. Anytime
I would save it made a face like Hannah, or
it looked like Hannah, or was acting like Hannah, he
would throw a fit.
Speaker 5 (06:56):
You loved your son quite obviously, right, Yes? Did you
love Yes? Did you kill these people for her?
Speaker 1 (07:04):
Now?
Speaker 5 (07:05):
Would you ever do.
Speaker 2 (07:06):
That now.
Speaker 4 (07:09):
Here's Jeff and Stephanie.
Speaker 8 (07:11):
Do you think, Steph that this testimony humanizess George Wagner
in anyway.
Speaker 9 (07:16):
I mean, look, even if it does humanize him, both
things can be true. I think if we've learned anything
just in the process of making this podcast and following
it for as long as we have, it's just that
certain people can be a lot of things at the
same time. So on the one hand, yes, maybe this
does make him seem more compassionate, and on the other
(07:36):
he's being accused of commiserating to murder of eight people that,
according to this compassionate testimony he knew very well.
Speaker 4 (07:43):
And both things may be true.
Speaker 8 (07:45):
This is a good example of the defense adding a
rational look into George Wagner's thought process. It's very well explained.
It sounds logical. I mean, he makes pretty rational points
about why Jake's relationship with Elizabeth is odd, and it
could raise possible doubts about Elizabeth's judgment, which, as we know,
is the prosecution's goal to poke holes in the defense's
story because all they have to do is just turn
(08:07):
one juror in favor of George.
Speaker 9 (08:09):
I would imagine too, if in fact, he knew what
hot water he and his family were in at that time.
The idea of adding a new person just seems nuts.
On the one hand, it shows that Jake wanted to
marry Elizabeth before they returned to piked In.
Speaker 4 (08:26):
And on the other.
Speaker 9 (08:27):
Side of it, why would you add somebody else to
the equation that has to keep your story straight? And
if George presents himself as empathetic and slightly compassionate or
is adding context to the dynamics, one person can decide
his fate.
Speaker 4 (08:51):
Well, he loved his niece, George said he and Jake
also fought and disagreed about how to raise their children.
Here again, defense attorney John Parker speaking with George Wagner
the fourth.
Speaker 7 (09:05):
Did you and your brother have the same ideas on
how to how to raise your respective children?
Speaker 2 (09:12):
No, not by a long shot.
Speaker 5 (09:14):
Can you explain.
Speaker 2 (09:17):
My brother wanted to basically keep chained up in the
house for her entire life until she graduated college.
Speaker 5 (09:25):
What was your idea of how to raise it?
Speaker 2 (09:31):
My idea of it was, I guess you could say
I spoiled him. I didn't ever tell him that whatever
he wanted, I got it for him, and I got
a lot of hell over.
Speaker 1 (09:39):
That, and my.
Speaker 2 (09:43):
Main plan was that eventually when he was older, all
kids are going to be kids, regardless of what you
say or do, They're going to make their own mistakes.
I've made mine, everybody I knows made theirs, and they're
going to do it anyway, whether you tell them not
to or whether you tell them to do what, they're
going to do it. So my way of fixing that
was I was just going to end up building like
(10:03):
a great big lake one day on whatever piece of
property I bought, and have his own cabin on it
from time he turned as teenager, so when he was
out drinking and party in which he's going to do
all kids do it, that he would be there and
I wouldn't worry about he running up and down the
roads instead of him being running everywhere like I did.
Speaker 5 (10:19):
Did you discuss this with your brother?
Speaker 1 (10:21):
Yes?
Speaker 5 (10:22):
Did you discuss Jake's philosophy on? Yes?
Speaker 2 (10:26):
Yes?
Speaker 5 (10:27):
Is that a source of disagreement between.
Speaker 2 (10:29):
You and you as.
Speaker 7 (10:32):
Well?
Speaker 5 (10:32):
All over the objection?
Speaker 2 (10:35):
Yes, it was a massive disagreement.
Speaker 4 (10:39):
Despite disagreeing on how to raise their children, both Jake
and George agreed on one thing that was at their
mother Angela Wagner should have custody of their kids should
anything happen to them. George said he remembers signing the
backdated custody documents that Angela prepared, claims he did so
(11:01):
without looking at them.
Speaker 2 (11:02):
I came home one day and I was going to
my room, change clothes and go back out the door,
and my mom said that she was filling one out
for my brother and asked if I wanted one that
was more legit than the handwritten when I had. And
I told her if she wanted that, she had like
ten minutes to get it, and I had to get
and I signed. My neighbor walked out.
Speaker 5 (11:19):
Okay, so break that down a little bit, all right.
Do you remember when.
Speaker 2 (11:23):
That was sometime early twenty sixteen?
Speaker 7 (11:26):
All right?
Speaker 5 (11:27):
And the document that you signed, had it been completed?
Was it blank? What did you know about?
Speaker 7 (11:32):
It?
Speaker 2 (11:32):
Was just like a printed out for him.
Speaker 5 (11:34):
Did you read it? No?
Speaker 2 (11:35):
I just signed my name to it.
Speaker 5 (11:37):
And what'd you do after you sign your name?
Speaker 2 (11:38):
I walked out the front door and left again.
Speaker 5 (11:41):
And what was your understanding of this document she wanted
to you de signed? You were coming at it out
and changing.
Speaker 2 (11:47):
I just assumed she was making another one that was
more legitimate looking in my handwritten one.
Speaker 4 (11:55):
Here's Stephanie and Jeff.
Speaker 8 (11:57):
So the defense has been trying to show George as
a Karen attentive, smart with it person and father. But
the whole explanation that he just signed these custody documents
on a whim to me undercuts the.
Speaker 10 (12:10):
Caring and attentive father image.
Speaker 8 (12:12):
It reinforces the idea that he actually didn't really care,
that he would just sign something without thinking about it
or putting any thought into it. His defense attorney attempts
to explain the decision, but I think the whole thing
undercuts what the defense has been trying to do.
Speaker 9 (12:26):
Which is a completely fair point, I would say. In
the totality of what he's been saying in his testimony
so far, they're trying to make him stand alone and
stand apart from his other family members. It also shows
that he was pretty conditioned to do.
Speaker 4 (12:44):
Whatever his mother said.
Speaker 9 (12:45):
Kind Of my takeaway from what the story is they're
telling is that George kind of got accustomed to dealing
with his mother and that his family was always doing
some kind of a scam or a con and that
he just looked the other ways, or through his hands
up and didn't really think much of it.
Speaker 10 (13:02):
Well, the defense can't have it both ways.
Speaker 8 (13:03):
They can't say on the one hand that he is
a carrying, attendive father who thinks everything through and it's
independent of his family, but then also just signs a
document because his mom tells him to and he trusts her.
Those are conflicting ideas that I think the jury will
see throw.
Speaker 4 (13:18):
Despite testifying the day before that he had wanted to
distance himself from his family's criminal activities, George admitted to
chopping up cars for insurance money.
Speaker 5 (13:28):
Did you ever make money other than driving.
Speaker 2 (13:30):
Trucks multiple different ways?
Speaker 10 (13:34):
Did you ever cut up trucks?
Speaker 5 (13:36):
Yes, explain it.
Speaker 2 (13:39):
My grandfather, my mom's father, would have people come by
that would have a diesel Dodge truck or a Diesel
Shavy or whatever contruck really, but they would owe on
the truck and they would want out from under it.
So I'd give him five hundred to one thousand dollars
and they'd give me the truck and give me a
week to chop with up and sell it. And then
(14:00):
they reported stole and turned in on the insurance company.
Speaker 5 (14:04):
And so explain how that works as far as chopping up,
and so you.
Speaker 2 (14:07):
Just take it apart, piece by piece, and then you
sell it's part different parts of different people.
Speaker 5 (14:13):
And you did that when you lived on Peterson. Yes,
do you know approximately how many trucks believe?
Speaker 4 (14:19):
Five Later defense tourney John Parker pivoted to address the
damaging BCI recordings. George Wagner tried to counter the prosecution's
descriptions of some of the most incriminating comments.
Speaker 7 (14:34):
Thinking back on these recordings that we listened to, do
you remember saying on the recordings anything about your mother
and whether she should get an attorney or not. Do
you remember any of that?
Speaker 2 (14:46):
Yes?
Speaker 5 (14:46):
What do you remember?
Speaker 2 (14:49):
The conversations I believe you're talking about is that if
all of us were arrested, that my mother should get
the best one.
Speaker 5 (14:56):
And did you say that?
Speaker 2 (14:57):
Yes?
Speaker 5 (14:57):
Why did you say that?
Speaker 2 (14:59):
Because my mom's the one that watched the kids five
days a week while we were gone. Anyway, they were
used to being with her for five days a week,
and I feared it would be easier on my children.
Speaker 5 (15:07):
What were you thinking, you said?
Speaker 2 (15:10):
I was just going under what basically I understood from
the attorneys that if we got arrested, that it could
take six months, it could take two years to get
to a trial and be able to work things out.
Speaker 7 (15:25):
Do you remember on some of the recordings we listened
to your mother saying something about being framed?
Speaker 5 (15:32):
Yes, what do you recall?
Speaker 2 (15:35):
My mom and brother has said that since the beginning.
That's why I believe that we were being framed, because
they said that they were twisting everything that my mom
and brother had on their phones and laptops, and they
were trying to frame us.
Speaker 7 (15:46):
And was that your mindset during these conversations. Yes, after
listening to these recordings that we heard in court, how
do you feel about what Jake was saying and what.
Speaker 5 (15:58):
You now know he did?
Speaker 2 (16:00):
I now know that he was just flying through his
teeth to me. What about your mother the same thanks,
she's just lying to me from the beginning.
Speaker 7 (16:08):
Did you ever tell your mother referencing these reportings, did
you ever tell your mother you would take the blame
for these murders?
Speaker 1 (16:15):
No?
Speaker 2 (16:15):
I did not.
Speaker 9 (16:19):
So George has testified that he didn't trust his mother.
Speaker 4 (16:22):
We know this.
Speaker 9 (16:23):
He also didn't trust his brother, and he knew he
was being raised frankly by career criminals and in his opinion,
his brother was very selfish and manipulative, and at this point,
whether this is before the murders or even after the murders,
George was supposed to be on the straight and narrow.
Speaker 8 (16:40):
George likes to claim that he knew the whole time
his family were liars and criminals and did not trust them. Yet,
according to his narrative, after the murders, he just chooses
to believe their story about what happened in and around
the Roaded massacre. It just doesn't line up about the
explanation George gave earlier. He knows their liars, yet accept
their statements about the murders. These are the kinds of
(17:01):
things that the prosecution is definitely noticing, and they're definitely
going to bring up a cross because they want to
really highlight them for the jury.
Speaker 4 (17:11):
Attorney John Parker then focused on one of the most
potentially damaging recordings. In it, George Wagner threatened BCI investigator
Ryan Schiderer. George testified that it was not a real threat,
but a comment made out of frustration and anger.
Speaker 7 (17:28):
One of the conversations we listened to in both your
brother and your mother, and you were kind of in
the background, your mother said something about their framing us.
Speaker 5 (17:39):
You remember that, yeah, and that she would take the
death company. Yes, you remember that at that time.
Speaker 7 (17:46):
Did you know your mom and brother were involved in
these murders or committed the murders. No, I think it
was In that same conversation, Jake says he will get
out one way or another.
Speaker 5 (17:56):
Do you remember that.
Speaker 7 (17:57):
Yeah, at that time did you know he had killed
these people?
Speaker 1 (18:01):
No?
Speaker 2 (18:02):
I was on the assumption that he was referring to
if he got framed and was wrongfully convicted.
Speaker 7 (18:09):
And then your voice is in the background and you say,
ain't gonna have the electric.
Speaker 5 (18:15):
Chair or words to that.
Speaker 2 (18:17):
Yes you remember that.
Speaker 5 (18:18):
Yes, what did you mean by that?
Speaker 2 (18:21):
I just get irritated when people were messing with my
family and stuff, especially when I've been out for five
days with no sleep and a massive amounts of caffeine,
and it makes you irritable.
Speaker 7 (18:37):
Did you know at that point that your mom and
brother were actually guilty of anything?
Speaker 11 (18:40):
No?
Speaker 5 (18:41):
Are you guilty of any of these events?
Speaker 12 (18:43):
No?
Speaker 7 (18:45):
On that same recording or conversation, remember hearing your voice say.
Speaker 1 (18:48):
I want to kill Ryan.
Speaker 2 (18:50):
Yes, I said that.
Speaker 5 (18:51):
What did What did you mean by that explain context.
Speaker 2 (18:55):
It was more blind, like when you're angry at somebody
you say stupid stuff like that. Don't mean that you
mean it. I think everybody said that about somebody at
one point or another.
Speaker 7 (19:03):
There was another comment you made to your brother during
one of these full calls about you telling people the
truth is the reason we're in this mass. You remember that, yes,
can you explain it?
Speaker 2 (19:14):
In the beginning, I believe that the finger was pointed
at my family because my brother pissed off the manlies,
which he does to almost everybody he's around.
Speaker 4 (19:26):
We're going to take a break. We'll be back in
a moment. Defense attorney John Parker wrapped up his questioning
of George Wagner by again asking him if he had
any involvement in the murders.
Speaker 5 (19:44):
Did you know your family was going to kill these people? No?
Before it happened to Joe. No, after it happened to
je No.
Speaker 7 (19:53):
Did you ever have any conversations with your brother about No.
Speaker 5 (19:57):
Did you ever talk to your mom about it?
Speaker 2 (19:59):
No?
Speaker 5 (20:00):
You're dead now. If you had known this was going
to happen, what would you do?
Speaker 2 (20:06):
I don't know exactly how, but I would have stopped it.
One way or another.
Speaker 5 (20:09):
Did you love him?
Speaker 9 (20:10):
Yes?
Speaker 5 (20:12):
Did you consider frank you a good friend?
Speaker 2 (20:13):
I consented me my best friend.
Speaker 7 (20:16):
Looking at Wagner Zhibit fifty three, Dash Law, this is
your wedding photo right.
Speaker 2 (20:21):
Yes, you have one arm around, who Tabby?
Speaker 5 (20:24):
You have another arm around?
Speaker 2 (20:25):
Who haves Frankie?
Speaker 4 (20:29):
Here again? Jeff and Stephanie.
Speaker 8 (20:32):
We knew when we saw the photo from George and
Tabitha's wedding a couple of years ago that it was
influential and significant, but singing in court really proves that
to be true. This was a big moment where both
of the families got together and it highlights their relationships.
Speaker 9 (20:47):
We'll share it on our social media, but it's a
pretty astounding photograph and it really paints a picture of
how close they were. And everybody in the photograph is
either dead or accused of their murder.
Speaker 5 (21:00):
The statement cross exam.
Speaker 4 (21:03):
Here's Law on Crime's investigative reporter and Jeanette Levy.
Speaker 11 (21:07):
I was actually part of me felt kind of impressed
watching him on direct because I felt that he just
seemed calm, and he'd obviously been prepped, but he just
seemed to have answers for everything, and that kind of
made me wonder a little bit, because you can't have
you can't always have answers for everything. But he seemed
(21:29):
to have an answer for everything. Obviously, he's been prepped,
he's had years to think about this. But at the
same time, he seemed to be doing a good job
on the stand during direct.
Speaker 5 (21:40):
The prosecution focus did on George Wagen to the force
honesty today on the witness stand.
Speaker 4 (21:46):
After hours of questioning by his own attorney, George Wagner
came under intense scrutiny during the prosecution's cross examination. Prosecutor
and Jacineppa immediately zeroed in on George's claim that he
and Frankie Rodin had a close relationship.
Speaker 1 (22:03):
Let's go ahead and start with Frankie. You consider him
your best friend? Yes, so in twenty twelve, you have
your arm around Frankie, he's standing next to you at
your wedding. Yes, And prior to the homicides, when had
you ever.
Speaker 2 (22:20):
Talked to Frankie the last time beforehand? Yes, probably late December.
Speaker 1 (22:27):
Late December of twenty fifteen. Yes, okay, And isn't it
true that you told us that you didn't even know
Hannah Hazel.
Speaker 2 (22:38):
I have met her one time in my life.
Speaker 1 (22:40):
But at the Border, when you were interviewed in twenty seventeen,
you said you had never met her, that the last
person you knew Frankie to be seen was some girl
named Angel, and that was before you got married in
twenty twelve.
Speaker 2 (22:56):
Angel was before Chelsea.
Speaker 1 (22:58):
You indicated at the border that the last person you
knew Frankie to be seen was some girl named Angel,
and that was when you still had your pulling chuck,
which was before you got married.
Speaker 2 (23:08):
Not that I remember. I could be wrong, but not
that I remember.
Speaker 4 (23:11):
Okay, Well, George Wagner admitted that he hadn't seen Frankie
Rodin in months and had never met Frankie's son. He
explained that he didn't have as much time for friends
when he began long haul driving, also after his own
son was born. However, the prosecution presented an alternative theory.
Speaker 1 (23:30):
So you'd never met Hannah Hazel. Usually a woman's pregnant
for nine months and Ruger was six months at the
time of burse that's at least fifteen months where you
didn't know Hannah Hazel, never met her, never met her.
But Frankie was your best friend.
Speaker 2 (23:45):
Yes, who I considered my best friend who you block
on Facebook, who I did not walk on Facebook.
Speaker 1 (23:52):
Well, he was blocked on your Facebook.
Speaker 2 (23:55):
It might be, but it didn't happen for me, okay.
Speaker 1 (23:58):
And you did not have any Facebook conversations with Frankie either.
Speaker 5 (24:01):
Did you?
Speaker 2 (24:02):
Not very many that I remember.
Speaker 1 (24:04):
As in zero, not that I remember, okay.
Speaker 4 (24:10):
And you can have a question George's relationship with the
mother of Frankie, Roden's oldest child, who had testified earlier
in the child She alleged that there was bad blood
between George and Frankie.
Speaker 1 (24:24):
You remember Chelsea testifying, Yes, okay. Is it true that
you reached out to her at.
Speaker 2 (24:30):
Some point, at one point in time by me and
Chelsea started talking, yes, okay.
Speaker 1 (24:35):
And Frankie found out about.
Speaker 2 (24:37):
That, Yes, and he was upset in the beginning, Yes
to I explained that he was nothing more than friends.
Speaker 1 (24:43):
Okay. So then Chelsea's lying when she said that that
put a you guys held a grudge against each other
after that, and no, your.
Speaker 2 (24:51):
Friendship, we did not grudge against each other after that.
Speaker 1 (24:55):
Okay. So she's lying.
Speaker 2 (24:57):
I'm not saying she's lying, saying she's mistaken.
Speaker 1 (25:00):
Okay, But you never met Hannah Hazel and didn't know
his name.
Speaker 5 (25:04):
No.
Speaker 1 (25:05):
You also indicated that Frankie was a fighter, yes, that
you've seen videos of him fighting. Yes, And that you
would have to go through Frankie to get to anyone
in the family more unlikely. Yeah, I mean that's what
you said.
Speaker 2 (25:21):
Yes, okay, I don't see Frankie let anybody mess.
Speaker 1 (25:24):
With his family, yeah, or Kenneth right.
Speaker 2 (25:27):
I don't see anybody in their family, let anybody mess
with their family.
Speaker 4 (25:31):
And Jakanappa also attacks George Wagner's claims that he hated
his own family and wanted to escape them. She does
this by referencing a conversation Jeorge had in twenty eighteen
with his new girlfriend Josie.
Speaker 1 (25:45):
And I guess you tried, or at least it seemed
yesterday that you were talking about Jake as if you
hardly even liked him at which point in time, any
point in time.
Speaker 2 (25:59):
From early time, childhood, it wasn't that bad with him.
We were just little kids, but the older we got
the worst. He died, okay, and at the last point
I might get ten good days out of one hundred
with him, maybe.
Speaker 1 (26:11):
Okay, But you just saw that text message in twenty
eighteen right to Josie. Yes, where you're saying I'm really
close with my family, you're kind of warning her or
making sure that she's okay with that, because you were
contemplating having her come live with you.
Speaker 2 (26:27):
Right, not at the house house staying in though, Say
it again, not that the house I was staying in.
Speaker 1 (26:32):
Though, But you wanted her to come live with you.
Speaker 2 (26:35):
I want her to move down here eventually, because that's
what she was talking about. But I wasn't going to
let her move in the house with my mother.
Speaker 1 (26:41):
Okay, you didn't want her in the house with your mother, correct,
So in July of twenty eighteen, when you were talking
to your mother on the phone, when you said that
you wanted your own little farm somewhere out west where
I can still make a living and where me and
Jake can live peacefully with you and the kids and
(27:03):
whoever else we decide to bring so we can have
a nice, peaceful life without all of that craft and
the drama from everyone.
Speaker 2 (27:10):
Am I allowed to explain this?
Speaker 1 (27:12):
Did you say that?
Speaker 2 (27:14):
Yes? I said that? Okay, Am I allowed to go
into details this? Sure, it doesn't mean live in the
same house. It means by a bigger farm, and he
has a house on one corner. She has a house
on one corner, and I've got a house on corner.
Speaker 1 (27:27):
Okay, kind of like what you guys were considering doing
when you moved to Missouri. Right.
Speaker 4 (27:32):
In a further effort to discredit George Wagner's testimony, the
prosecution brought out transcripts of his interview with BCI agents
at the Montana border in twenty seventeen and challenged him
on the discrepancy between what he said then and what
he was saying now on the witness stand.
Speaker 1 (27:51):
I know you talked about your mother and you said, well.
Speaker 2 (27:54):
You describe her to me, she is thanks you better
than everybody. Thanks. Everything has to be done her way.
I would probably say that I could put selfish in
that manipulative.
Speaker 1 (28:08):
And again, I mean, this is new and different than
what you told us at the border.
Speaker 5 (28:12):
Right.
Speaker 1 (28:13):
That's not what you said about your mother at the border.
Speaker 5 (28:15):
Right.
Speaker 2 (28:16):
I don't remember what I said at the border.
Speaker 1 (28:17):
Okay, Well, you were asked if your mom was controlling.
I bet your mom is so controlling that she probably
even organized the whole thing. And you said, my mom
is not controlling. You were asked your mom's not controlling,
you said no at all. Do you remember saying that.
Speaker 2 (28:34):
I don't remember saying that.
Speaker 1 (28:35):
Okay, Well, is that true.
Speaker 2 (28:38):
That she's not controlling?
Speaker 1 (28:40):
Correct?
Speaker 2 (28:41):
As a before my tenth birthday, she wasn't so bad
that I can remember, but she got worse as the
years went by.
Speaker 1 (28:48):
Okay. So in twenty seventeen, when you were asked that
question and you said she's not controlling.
Speaker 2 (28:53):
She tried to do or not as far as actually
controlling me, No, she didn't, okay, but she tried to
control me. If that answers your question.
Speaker 1 (29:03):
Well, I'm just trying to figure out what the truth is,
considering you said one thing at the border, and you
said an entirely different thing yesterday and today.
Speaker 4 (29:12):
So, despite testifying that his mother was manipulative and selfish,
George tried to explain why he was willing to sign
away custody of a son.
Speaker 1 (29:25):
You talked about these custody documents that you and your
brother signed, and your mother forged the signature for panah
On correct, all in the same magical day.
Speaker 5 (29:37):
Correct y.
Speaker 1 (29:38):
You obviously heard the testimony that that happened at the
kitchen table in your house.
Speaker 2 (29:42):
It was in the kitchen.
Speaker 1 (29:43):
In the kitchen, okay, So you agree with that.
Speaker 2 (29:47):
I agree. I signed my name to mine in the
kitchen and left.
Speaker 1 (29:49):
Okay, And you indicated you just sign that. Yes, so
you trust your mother.
Speaker 2 (29:58):
I trust my mother seventy five eight percent. There's some
parts of her I don't trust.
Speaker 1 (30:04):
Okay, But you signed this document saying if you were
to be killed or something happened to you, she would
get your child.
Speaker 2 (30:12):
Who else would I leave him to? I have no
one else to leave him to.
Speaker 1 (30:16):
Yeah, but it was dated twenty fifteen, and that's not
when you signed those documents.
Speaker 2 (30:23):
I didn't know what date was on it. I signed
it early sixteen.
Speaker 1 (30:27):
You signed it in April sometimes sixteen.
Speaker 2 (30:29):
I don't know the exact date.
Speaker 1 (30:31):
Yeah, well, obviously sometime after April third or twenty sixteen,
because that was when it was printed.
Speaker 5 (30:35):
Off the computer.
Speaker 2 (30:36):
Could be I don't know the exact date, but it
was sixteen. I didn't pay much attention to another seeing
it had my signature.
Speaker 4 (30:44):
And Jacineppa then showed George Wagner the custody documents that
he signed. She once again pressed George and why he
signed them without paying attention.
Speaker 2 (30:53):
You could look at that and it's the document that signed,
So that is.
Speaker 1 (30:58):
Your signature, yeah, okay. And you see the date at
the bottom there, yes, okay. And it's that consistent with
your experience. As far as your computer spitting out the
date something is printed.
Speaker 2 (31:14):
Off the computer, I couldn't tell you, and I don't
use computers that much.
Speaker 1 (31:17):
But this is dated March eleventh or twenty fifteen. Yes,
and it clearly was not signed in March eleventh or
two fifteen.
Speaker 2 (31:25):
No, I signed it the day it was printed off.
Speaker 1 (31:28):
So I mean you realize it's forgery to backdate a document, right, yes, okay.
And it's forgery to sign somebody else's name to a document.
Speaker 2 (31:38):
Yes, I can see that, Okay. I just don't see
how me signing my name is forgery.
Speaker 1 (31:43):
Well, it was backdated.
Speaker 2 (31:45):
I didn't know that the page was, from my understanding blank,
from what I can remember, when I signed.
Speaker 1 (31:49):
My name, she just signed your name to a completely blank.
Speaker 2 (31:52):
Document, to a custody document. She said, sign my name.
I signed it, walked out.
Speaker 1 (31:56):
But you wanted to leave your child with your mother.
Speaker 2 (32:00):
If something was ever that happened to me? Yes, I had.
There was no one else to leave it to him again.
Speaker 1 (32:06):
You had lots of conversations about concerns about the handwriting
that was going to be taken because.
Speaker 2 (32:12):
It's something to do with law enforcement, and I was
raised at law enforcements. Crooking tries to twist everything.
Speaker 1 (32:18):
Well, you were raised to commit a lot of crimes.
Speaker 2 (32:21):
I was not that it was right, but that's how
I was raised. It took me a long time to
realize that it was wrong.
Speaker 1 (32:27):
And that no matter when did you realize that?
Speaker 2 (32:31):
When I realized that my dad was wrong and it
was actually hurting people.
Speaker 1 (32:35):
So that particular crime you realized was actually hurting people, right,
the stealing of stuff out of the traitors, Yes, but
you didn't swear off a life of crime just that
particular when you realize there actually were victims.
Speaker 2 (32:47):
Indeed, I went with the stealing fuel and loads. I
quit in late fourteen. I believe the last thing I
can remember doing, aside from deer hunting, that was being
considered illegal, was the Duramax being. Rick asked after that
it was just dear honey.
Speaker 4 (33:06):
Despite his claim of changing his ways and leaving his
life of crime behind him, Angie Caineppa questioned George Wagner
about the illegal activities he continued to engage in, including
using a fake address to get his trucking license.
Speaker 2 (33:20):
You that.
Speaker 1 (33:22):
So it's an application for a driver's license, correct?
Speaker 2 (33:25):
Yes? Okay?
Speaker 1 (33:26):
And what address did you put down there?
Speaker 2 (33:29):
Ok?
Speaker 1 (33:30):
Okay? That is not where you were living.
Speaker 2 (33:32):
No, it's my grandmother's form, I remember. Correct, it has
something to do with l right, now, that's why used
that address.
Speaker 1 (33:39):
Well, you're providing false information to a state agency. Correct.
Speaker 2 (33:42):
Yes.
Speaker 4 (33:44):
Prosecutor Angie Caineppa then showed George Wagner a series of
gun receipts and purchase forms.
Speaker 1 (33:52):
So you know that you have to put accurate information
on those forms, correct, Yes, it's a federal offense not
to But you're purchasing a firearm, right, okay, So if
you could go ahead and look at it and tell
us what address you put down there?
Speaker 2 (34:06):
It's eight or five Vessel Hill.
Speaker 1 (34:07):
Rid Okay, but that's not relived.
Speaker 2 (34:09):
Not the time my license had expired, and when I
bought my firearms, I was advised just to use what
was on the driver's license. I had then taking time
to change it.
Speaker 1 (34:20):
Actually, that's not permitted.
Speaker 2 (34:22):
That's what that was advised five other people I bought
them from. They said to put the addresses on my license.
Speaker 1 (34:27):
You understand that making any false, oral or written statement,
or exhibiting any false or misrepresented identification with respect to
this transaction is a crime punishable as a felony. Yes,
under federal law. Yes, but at least three, at least
these three forms, you did not provide accurate information correct.
Speaker 2 (34:46):
As far as the driver's license address up.
Speaker 4 (34:52):
After George Wagner admitted lying on government firearm forms, Kneppa
move to point out other key discrepancies and George Wagner's testimony,
particularly around when he went to bed the night of
the murderers.
Speaker 6 (35:06):
Prosecutors saying twenty seventeen, Wagner told investigators that he'd gone
to bed at twelve thirty am on the night of
the murders after watching a movie with his family. However,
in his testimony today, he claimed it was around ten pm.
Speaker 1 (35:20):
You said that the night of the homicides you went
to bed at ten o'clock.
Speaker 2 (35:25):
Can issue if I remember correctly, It's been.
Speaker 1 (35:27):
A long time, okay, all right, and so do you
recall again being interviewed at the border and saying that
the four of you, well, the six of you. Actually,
your mom, your dad, your brother, yourself were watching a
movie and you were up until you didn't go to
(35:47):
bed till twelve thirty.
Speaker 2 (35:49):
Don't remember what kime was. Okay.
Speaker 1 (35:53):
Do you remember telling the border at the border, the
agents when they asked you about what you did that night,
you saying that your mom had fixed cheeseburgers for you
and how delicious they were, and she makes the best
and maybe one day she could make them for them.
Speaker 2 (36:07):
I don't remember that now. I'm not saying I didn't say.
I just said I don't remember.
Speaker 13 (36:11):
Okay.
Speaker 1 (36:12):
You indicated that you watched a fairy movie. Don't remember
what a movie that wanted to watch.
Speaker 2 (36:18):
I just I remember watching a movie of the kids
at this point, I don't remember what it was. It's
been a long time.
Speaker 1 (36:23):
And you indicated that that is when your son would
usually go to sleep as well.
Speaker 2 (36:28):
My son usually went to sleep ten or eleven usually. Okay,
there is what I can remember.
Speaker 1 (36:34):
Is there a reason that you would lie to the
people at the border.
Speaker 2 (36:37):
I'm not saying I did. I'm saying I don't remember
what time to like told them that, Okay, I mean
it may have been I just from my remembory. Now,
I remember going to bed around tennish. I could be
wrong about that, that's what I remember.
Speaker 1 (36:48):
Yeah, Well, because now we know that Chris Senior and
Gary were being killed at eleven PM, right, I don't
know that. You don't know that up. No.
Speaker 4 (37:03):
Previously, Jake Wagner testified that George participated in the murders. However,
Jake said that George did not fire any shots.
Speaker 1 (37:12):
You don't know that. That's when your dad had Chris
call his phone and you saw the phone calls.
Speaker 2 (37:18):
Correct, I'm saying I wasn't there. I don't know when
Chris had.
Speaker 1 (37:22):
Died, right, Okay, you know that's what Jake said.
Speaker 2 (37:27):
I know my brother's time is off on everything that's
been showed in here.
Speaker 1 (37:32):
So now we know, at least according to Jake, that
Chris Senior and Gary were killed at eleven o'clock.
Speaker 5 (37:40):
Right.
Speaker 1 (37:40):
I think that's what he said, which makes your story
at the border impossible.
Speaker 2 (37:45):
Right Again, I don't remember exactly everything I said to
the border.
Speaker 1 (37:49):
Well, I assume you were trying your best to tell
the truth when you were interviewed.
Speaker 2 (37:52):
At the border, correct to my knowledge of what I remembered.
Speaker 1 (37:56):
Okay, I'm not interested as much as what you said,
as much as do you agree that it would be
more accurate back then.
Speaker 2 (38:07):
I can't agree yes or no because I just don't know.
Speaker 1 (38:09):
Okay, you agree that you were trying to be honest
with the agents. Certainly weren't trying to lie to them.
Speaker 2 (38:15):
Yes, I agree on that you certainly weren't trying.
Speaker 1 (38:16):
To provide a cover story for you and your brother
and your father and your mother. Right, So this whole
idea that we're going to coordinate our response and say
that we were all together a family night movie night watching,
watching a video. Surely you didn't just make this up
when you told no the people at the border. It
(38:39):
just happened to be the same story that you guys
had agreed in advance to tell.
Speaker 2 (38:44):
There was no agreement in advance. My dad came down,
my kid didn't want him to leave.
Speaker 1 (38:49):
So your story today or yesterday is that you actually
went to that at ten.
Speaker 2 (38:56):
From what I remember at this point in time, I
believe it was tannish.
Speaker 1 (38:59):
Okay, So how could Jake and your father have been
up on the hill killing Chris Senior and Geary less
than an hour after you went into your bedroom.
Speaker 2 (39:13):
I can't answer that. I don't know.
Speaker 4 (39:16):
Here's James Pilcher, longtime investigative reporter in Cincinnati now at
Local twelve.
Speaker 3 (39:22):
When George Wagner testified that he went to bed at
ten o'clock, the two special prosecutors, Angela Kaneppa and Andy
Wilson looked at each other almost like pointed at each
other like, haha, we have not heard what George had
to tell Ohio BCI when they stopped the family at
the Montana border on their way back from Alaska in
(39:44):
May June twenty seventeen. They have not played a lot
of that. They have not played any of that. They
played some of jakes, they played Angela's, but they've not
played any of George's. And I think there was a
strategic reason behind that, because they might have expected that
George was going to testify for himself and they did
not want him to hear what he had to say
(40:05):
back then, so he could they can catch him in
a contradiction, and they did and it was a big one.
So they spent a lot of time and they hammered
him on Angela Caneppa, if you listen to it, he
hammers a moment and I think if I'm saying there's
a juror, if they paid his closest attention to this
trial as I have, that's that's a red flag.
Speaker 4 (40:29):
The prosecution also hammered George Wagner on other red flags
as well. This included denying any knowledge that Jake owned
a Walther Colt twenty two pistol.
Speaker 1 (40:39):
Have you ever owned a nineteen eleven twenty two?
Speaker 2 (40:43):
No?
Speaker 1 (40:44):
Has your brother ever owned one?
Speaker 2 (40:46):
Too? More knowledge? No?
Speaker 1 (40:48):
So his testimony he had this for more than a year.
You were unaware of that.
Speaker 2 (40:53):
If he's owned it that long, I didn't know about it.
Speaker 1 (40:55):
Okay, Well, obviously there's a picture of him holding that
weapon in two thousand fifteen.
Speaker 2 (41:01):
Now I see what the pictures his the back then.
I didn't think.
Speaker 1 (41:04):
That he hid it from you. What is it he
hit it from you?
Speaker 2 (41:08):
If he's had it that long, he must have.
Speaker 1 (41:11):
Why she's got a curiosity. Why would you do that?
Because you guys keep those your guns in your safe right.
Speaker 2 (41:17):
According to my brother's statement, he said that he'd owned
every one of them guns on that list, and I've
not seen over half of what's under his name.
Speaker 1 (41:25):
You feel to answer the question, you guys, keep your
guns in.
Speaker 2 (41:29):
Your safe, correct most of them.
Speaker 1 (41:31):
So you're saying he owns guns you don't know of.
Speaker 2 (41:33):
I'm saying it's possible. I've owned hundreds of young.
Speaker 1 (41:36):
Over a year. He owned a gun and you were
oblivious to it.
Speaker 2 (41:39):
It's very well possible.
Speaker 4 (41:44):
Here again journalist James Pilcher.
Speaker 3 (41:47):
George has said he never saw and has never seen
the nineteen eleven Walter Colt twenty two caliber that was
used in the murders, even though agen Scheider texted them
a picture of Jake holding it that they got off
at Jake's phone, so they'd never seen that gun before. Ever,
(42:08):
he bought that handgun had a gun show in Columbus
a couple of years before the murders at the end
of January, on the same day that George bought a
different gun at the same gun show. They have the
paperwork showing that they didn't buy their guns at the
same vendor. So George was like, I didn't even know,
(42:31):
really know Jake was there. So if I'm a juror,
I'm thinking, wait a minute, you mean to sell out
of the YouTube boys went up there separately to the
same gun show and bought guns on the same day
and didn't know each other was there while your father's there.
It was a small but key moment. At the end
of the day.
Speaker 4 (42:54):
During one of his conversations with Jake after the murders,
George was recorded by BCI agent complaining that Jake could
not tell a lie. All this with George insisting that
Jake destroy evidence.
Speaker 1 (43:06):
And you actually talk about that with Jake again, about
how his my whole life, I've been in trouble with
you because of you telling on everything and telling honesty. Yes,
And everybody says, my anger mouth is going to get
us in trouble, but it's always been your honesty that
(43:28):
gets us in trouble. Correct. And you say, children, you
have to tell on yourself, children, you have to tell
on me.
Speaker 2 (43:36):
Yeah, as we're children, that's what I'm referring to his eyes,
when we're children.
Speaker 1 (43:42):
And you also tell him that he should have gotten
rid of the phone and he should have smashed the laptop. Correct, Yes,
and again that's because we got a lot of evidence
from those items.
Speaker 2 (43:55):
My understanding of it was that he kept saying, you
guys were twisting stuff that you found on it to
try and frame him.
Speaker 4 (44:07):
Let's stop here for another break. Nearing the end of
her cross examination, Prosecutor Anjacineppa brought up George's long history
of calling female family members derogatory names. This included one
(44:27):
incident where George complained about Jake's four year old daughter.
Speaker 1 (44:31):
This is the call where you said she can't keep
her nose out of somebody else's life. She being yes,
and George, she's four years old. Yes, you said she
does anything deliberate you to try and crush him deliberately.
Bitch got to ruin everything. You referred to your niece,
(44:57):
your four year niece, as a bitch because she was.
Speaker 2 (45:02):
I'll explain this before five six days with no sleeping caffeine.
You say stuff you don't really mean.
Speaker 1 (45:08):
Yeah, you said a lot of things.
Speaker 2 (45:09):
Makes you irritable. Sure, and she went around telling my
son that she had a new mom and he didn't.
Speaker 1 (45:19):
You called her bitch. You remember calling your grandmother, Frederica
a crazy whore.
Speaker 2 (45:25):
I don't remember that.
Speaker 1 (45:26):
You don't remember telling your mom to calm that crazy
hor down.
Speaker 2 (45:29):
I don't remember that conversation, am I saying as possible? Yeah,
I've probably said something like that. I've said a lot
of stuff on my being upset that I really didn't mean,
but I've said it because I've been days without sleeping,
massive amounts of caffeine.
Speaker 1 (45:42):
Sure, And I mean you called Randa, I think a
lazy crackhore.
Speaker 2 (45:49):
I think I've called her that more than once, okay.
Speaker 1 (45:56):
And you told the agents at the border that you
thought that Hannah turned into a.
Speaker 2 (46:02):
Whore from what everybody else will say, okay.
Speaker 1 (46:08):
And that was after she had left Jake.
Speaker 2 (46:10):
Well everybody else was saying after she left Jake. To
my understanding, I don't think she ever really did, but
that's what everybody else will say, okay.
Speaker 1 (46:20):
And you called certainly called Tabby a whore many times,
and referred to Batman as a whore just like Tabby
many times.
Speaker 4 (46:35):
Here again, Antinnette Levy, he's calling his niece.
Speaker 11 (46:38):
You know, I think he called his niece a bit.
Speaker 2 (46:41):
She called his.
Speaker 11 (46:41):
Sister in law horror, I mean, and he attributes that
to you know, I drive on the road and I'm
up a long time, and you know, drink caffeine, and
I just think to myself, like I could see that.
Speaker 10 (46:56):
I mean, I mean, I've been wound.
Speaker 11 (46:58):
Up before and ranted and and said things and you know,
you go.
Speaker 2 (47:04):
Off on a.
Speaker 11 (47:06):
Tirade, but at the same time, in one of my
tirades are rants. I've not spoken about a four year
old child like that.
Speaker 4 (47:14):
Unable to explain the many inconsistencies in his testimony, George
Wagner pushed back against angiecin Eppu's questions. He insisted in
one of the most tense exchanges of the day, that
his mother and brother are lying, and.
Speaker 2 (47:30):
My mom and brother are lying to you.
Speaker 1 (47:32):
They have been like everybody else, Like everybody else is lying,
like Tabitha is lying, Chelsea's lying, like everybody to talk
about Frankie's lying. Everybody is lying except for you.
Speaker 2 (47:44):
I did not say Chelsea is lying. I said she's mistaken.
Speaker 1 (47:47):
Right, And even though you've not managed to tell us
anything consistent with what you told the agents at the
border in twenty seventeen, you're the one that's telling the truth.
Speaker 2 (47:57):
I don't remember exactly everything I said the border.
Speaker 1 (48:02):
That's not the question. The question is what you're saying
does today is not consistent with what you've said at
the border.
Speaker 2 (48:12):
Ye. I can't say if you guse or not because
I don't remember everything I've said there.
Speaker 1 (48:15):
But everybody else is lying.
Speaker 2 (48:17):
I'm saying that my mom and Tabby Jake's lying about
that night. We're gonna mistake in one. They're confusing two
different events into one.
Speaker 8 (48:26):
Angie Caneppa trying to trip up George, and he comes
across as very calm, very prepared, very even keeled. Does
it work again? He only needs to convince one juror
that he is telling the truth and that Jake and
his mom are lying. Caneppa is trying to rattle him,
but it just doesn't really seem to work. And at
the same time, Kinnepa makes the point for George to
be telling the truth, a lot of other people need
(48:48):
to be lying, which is a good point because Jake
and Angela were not able to corroborate their stories. They
have both been in separate jails this entire time with
no communication, so the fact that their truth stories matchup
is a pretty good indicator that they perhaps they're telling
the truth, because George could be lying all by himself,
but how could those who have the same story without
communicating first.
Speaker 9 (49:09):
They may have practiced a script to some degree before
they're arrests. They might have been planning for this moment
all along.
Speaker 10 (49:18):
But on the other hand, Jake Wagner and Angela Wagner
are both.
Speaker 8 (49:21):
The state's witnesses, so that means they've been working with
the prosecution and their team to figure out what.
Speaker 10 (49:26):
They're going to say on the stand. In conversation with Mike.
Speaker 8 (49:29):
Allen, lawyers have to tread very lately about coaching witnesses
on what they're going to say, But we do know
they can prepare them, and prepare them they do. They
spend hours talking over every single possible detail.
Speaker 4 (49:44):
Here's Jeff speaking with attorney and legal analyst Mike Allen.
Speaker 8 (49:51):
We heard all this technical stuff for so long, like
the ballistics and the shoeprint, all these things, but I
think it ultimately comes down to its what George said
versus what Angela Jake said like that is what I
think the jury probably most weighed. Do you see it
that same way or yeah?
Speaker 13 (50:05):
I mean it would come down to credibility from George
and Angela, And I think the credibility goes with Angela
because George any number of times just said I don't recall,
I don't remember, I didn't count him up, but there
are a lot of times that he said that and
I don't recall hearing that in Angela or Jake's testimony
(50:29):
for that matter. It was just pretty straightforward. So I
think if you didn't have the physical evidence and it's
you know, it's George against those two, I think I
think they win and George doesn't because a lot of
things he didn't remember, and he contradicted himself on a
number of occasions.
Speaker 8 (50:48):
And also, I mean, it's Jake and Angela. They have
not communicated, so it's not like their comparing notes. If
their stories lineup, isn't that must be worth a lot
more than George by himself.
Speaker 13 (50:59):
No question about it. Because they were kept separate. There's
no way they could get together out in the hallway
and they get their story straight. So yeah, that, I mean,
that gives them I think, another reason why they have
the greater credibility here.
Speaker 4 (51:16):
But the prosecution wasn't quite done highlighting George Wagner's incriminating comments.
Speaker 1 (51:21):
You indicated that you wanted to kill Special Agent Schier. Correct.
I said that, yes, okay, Jake didn't threaten him. Jake
did not threaten him, not to my knowledge. You remember
telling your brother that you should go to BCI and
(51:44):
tell them that he'll he'll rat you guys out because
he's the biggest rat there is.
Speaker 2 (51:50):
Yes, I remember that, okay.
Speaker 1 (51:53):
And do you remember also telling your mother, let me
tell you something. I love you the only reason and
I'm sorry you're gonna hate when I say this. Everything
that you and dad have ever gotten in trouble for
with them mother frickers. The only reason they ever got
away with that craft was because every time somebody caved,
(52:15):
everybody crumbled. I ain't caving and I ain't crumbling. Do
you remember saying that?
Speaker 2 (52:21):
Don't remember them exact words, but I do remember roughly.
Speaker 1 (52:24):
The conversation, okay, And that was played in overcourt.
Speaker 2 (52:28):
Thanks, so ya, okay?
Speaker 1 (52:32):
And is that your philosophy? You don't gave and you
don't crumble.
Speaker 2 (52:37):
Now, for what I believe you're trying to say it
as wow, I.
Speaker 1 (52:42):
Don't specimically you're talking about anytime they got in trouble
with law enforcements because somebody cracked.
Speaker 2 (52:48):
I don't believe you should plead out to something you
didn't do.
Speaker 4 (52:53):
After the prosecution ended their cross examination of George Wagner,
his defense attorney John Parker once again re asked him
several questions about the murders.
Speaker 7 (53:04):
George, just a few follow up questions, probably been along
a couple of days before you, hasn't it appairly?
Speaker 5 (53:11):
George?
Speaker 7 (53:12):
Did you ever see Jake by the nineteen eleven No?
Speaker 5 (53:16):
Did you know he owned one?
Speaker 2 (53:17):
No?
Speaker 9 (53:18):
One.
Speaker 7 (53:18):
Did you go up on Union Hill Road and participate
in these murders in any way?
Speaker 1 (53:23):
No?
Speaker 5 (53:24):
Did you plan these murders?
Speaker 4 (53:26):
No?
Speaker 5 (53:26):
Did you know they were going to have?
Speaker 1 (53:28):
No?
Speaker 7 (53:29):
Did you know after the murders that they in fact
your family had been involved?
Speaker 2 (53:33):
No? Not until my rubbish proffert.
Speaker 7 (53:35):
And did you know did you ever go out to
Left Fork Road where.
Speaker 5 (53:39):
Kid was killed?
Speaker 1 (53:40):
No?
Speaker 5 (53:41):
Has anybody paid you anything for your testing?
Speaker 1 (53:44):
No?
Speaker 5 (53:45):
Has anybody given you anything for your testimony?
Speaker 7 (53:47):
Now?
Speaker 5 (53:48):
Did the state off you a plea bargain for your testiment?
Speaker 2 (53:50):
No?
Speaker 5 (53:51):
Are you telling the truth?
Speaker 2 (53:52):
Yes?
Speaker 5 (53:53):
Your life is on the line.
Speaker 9 (53:55):
Yes?
Speaker 5 (53:55):
Are you telling the truth?
Speaker 4 (53:56):
Yes?
Speaker 5 (53:57):
As you answer to God?
Speaker 1 (53:59):
Yes?
Speaker 4 (54:00):
And if you yes, with one last chance to potentially
trip up George Wagner prosecutor and Jacanappa asked him what
happens to him if he admits to killing the Rodents?
Speaker 1 (54:17):
What happens to you if you come in here and
admit that you and your brother and your father went
up to Union Hill Road that night and then out
to Left Fork Road that night and slaughtered perfectly innocent
people who lay asleep in their beds, two of them
(54:37):
with babies in the bed with them that, from all testimony,
were actively nursing their infants. What happens to you if
you come in here on that stand and.
Speaker 2 (54:49):
Admit to that, do you want to hear? Answer? Well,
I feel it should happen to anybody that would do that.
Speaker 1 (54:55):
I want to know what happens to you if you
come in hear and admit that.
Speaker 2 (55:02):
What should happen to anybody is they should have death
given to them.
Speaker 1 (55:07):
And the biggest difference you agree between you and your
brother is that when he does wrong things, he tells
about it and you.
Speaker 2 (55:16):
Don't when we were children.
Speaker 5 (55:17):
Yes, question, you may step down now.
Speaker 12 (55:22):
Since there's no DNA evidence connecting George Wagner to any
of the crime scenes, jurors will have to decide who
they believe him or Jakein and his mom Angela, who
have already said under oath that George Wagner was part
of the plot to kill multiple people.
Speaker 4 (55:39):
More on that next time. For more information on the
case and relevant photos, follow us on Instagram at kati
Underscore Studios. The Pithon Masker is produced by Stephanie Leidecker,
Jeff Shane, Connor Powell, Andrew Arnell, Gabriel Castillo and me
Courtney Armstrong. Editing and sound designed by Jeff Ti Music
(56:02):
by Jared Aston. The Pike did Maascer is a production
of iHeartRadio and Katie's Studios. For more podcasts from iHeart Radio,
visit the iHeartRadio app, Apple Podcasts, or wherever you listen
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