August 16, 2023 • 34 mins
From the start, investigators described the brutal murders at the University of Idaho as a targeted attack. But what connection, if any, is there between a Phd graduate student and four undergraduate coeds?
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Speaker 1 (00:04):
Moscow Police are investigating a homicide on King Rhode.
Speaker 2 (00:08):
Cause and manner of death was homicide by stabbing.
Speaker 3 (00:12):
This is terrible.
Speaker 4 (00:13):
It's a blood death.
Speaker 1 (00:20):
This is the Idaho Massacre. A production of KT Studios
and iHeartRadio, episode three In Search of a Connection. I'm
Courtney Armstrong, a television producer at KT Studios. With Stephanie Leidecker,
Jeff Shane, and Connor Powell. An unthinkable nightmare comes to
(00:45):
life in the small college community of Moscow. Four students
at the University of Idaho butcher to death in the
early hours of Sunday, November thirteenth. The gruesome murders spark
a multi state investigation stretch from Washington to Idaho to Pennsylvania.
(01:05):
The forty eight day investigation ends it on the other
side of the country with the stunning arrest of a
PhD criminal student and would be law enforcement officer named
Brian Coberger. Moscow Police James fry On the arrest.
Speaker 2 (01:20):
These tragic murders took four young, vibrant lives from our community.
Speaker 5 (01:25):
These murders have.
Speaker 2 (01:26):
Shaken our community and no arrest will ever bring back
these young students. However, we do believe justice will be
found through the criminal process.
Speaker 6 (01:38):
Was there some sort of connection.
Speaker 1 (01:40):
I think that it is likely that there's a relationship
between these four students and this person. From the first
hours of the investigation, law enforcement officials described the murders
of Kaylee Gonsalvez, Madison Mogan, Xana Kernodle, and Eitha Chapin
as a targeted attack, but police offered no other information.
(02:05):
Shannon Gray, an attorney representing the family of soon to
graduate senior Killie Gonsalvez, said publicly that none of the
victims knew Brian Coberger, leaving the question how is this
a targeted attack? Here's Stephanie Leideker, Jeff Shane and producer
Connor Powell.
Speaker 3 (02:26):
I think when we all picture a murder of this size,
we picture a masked killer like you see in the movies,
But in reality, stranger homicide is extremely rare. This changes
from year to year, but typically around fifty percent of
all murder victims are killed by someone they know. So
it begs the question, how did the accuse, Brian Coburger
know the victims.
Speaker 4 (02:44):
It does feel like there has to be some connective
tissue in some way either maybe they met in passing
or maybe they had some sort of class together.
Speaker 7 (02:53):
Social media allows people to know people but not actually
know them, that they can follow them, they can essentially
digital stock them. So he might have known them and
they might never have known him.
Speaker 3 (03:05):
And that's actually a parasocial relationship, which is this one
way relationship we have with it used to be people
on TV, in the movies, but now with the social media,
you really can intimately know someone without ever having met them.
Speaker 4 (03:17):
And you can also see the layout to their home.
We're on social media and we're doing it in our
houses or outside of our houses, and that can be
a real tell for anybody who's a predator.
Speaker 3 (03:29):
As we know, the victims were frequently posting on social media,
which oftentimes showed the layout of their home.
Speaker 1 (03:38):
The six bedroom house on King Road is tucked away
in a residential area of Moscow. It's surrounded by an
eighteen hole golf course, the University of Idaho's fraternity row,
and other residential homes. It sits about two miles from
the large commercial shopping area where the Target and Walmart
are and about two miles from the main downtown bar area.
Speaker 5 (04:03):
About four years before the crime, I was in Moscow, Idaho,
for homecoming. I was campaigning for Congress in the first
District of Idaho, so participated in the homecoming parade, passing
out literature, shaking a few hands, waving at the crowd.
At the conclusion of the parade, one of my good
supporters who was also in town, a friend of mine
(04:24):
and a law office client of mine, had a son
who was one of the rental residents leasing that particular property.
Speaker 1 (04:32):
That's David H. Leroy speaking to producer Jeff Shane. Leroy
is a former local prosecutor turned defense attorney. He served
as Idaho's Attorney General. He's also a graduate of the
University of Idaho College of Law and has been in
the house where the murders happened.
Speaker 5 (04:50):
So we went over to the house, ended up on
the second floor in a living room area, and chatted
with his son and the other two three residents who
were students at the university at that time living in
the house where the crime would be committed. About four
years later.
Speaker 3 (05:07):
What was it like being in there?
Speaker 5 (05:09):
A gray, three story building set in a relatively hard
to get to backwater street up against a hill, so
that you have a couple of different levels of entry
in the house. To go into the lowest level is
basically almost a daylight type basement, and then you must
(05:30):
walk up a stairway to get to the second floor,
where bedrooms and the living room area occupy the front
of the house. Upstairs, there are additional bedrooms. We didn't
visit those, but it's a three story set against the
hill structure that has multiple entrance levels and multiple exit levels.
Speaker 3 (05:52):
You were a student there, so you've I imagined lived
in different places. It was this house typical of where
a student might live in Moscow.
Speaker 5 (06:00):
This house was probably built in the nineteen seventies, no
later than the eighties, in an area that's immediately adjacent
to campus, literally the campus boundary and the fraternities and
sororities that ring the center of the campus against a
large hill which is topped by the University of Idaho's
(06:22):
water tower with a big emblematic eye on the exterior
of the structure. Is no more than a quarter of
a mile off campus. It's against a hill with single
family residences and other student population apartment buildings, and it's
perhaps no more than half a mile from the center
(06:44):
of the campus. Two thirds of a mile from the
student union itself.
Speaker 3 (06:49):
When they weren't sure who did it, they thought this
couldn't be that random because this house was kind of
tucked away. It was a little bit on It's not
like a cul de sac, but it's a little bit
of a dead end, like it's on a major thoroughfare.
What's your take on that.
Speaker 5 (07:01):
Now, there's no immediate arterial approximate to this house. You
must turn off an arterial and then off a sub arterial,
and then off that sub arterial to go up a
hillside almost to a dead end about one hundred or
one hundred and twenty five yards before you get to
this house. To get to this structure where the killings
(07:23):
took place, you have to work at it, and you
don't immediately pass by it on your way to anything else.
Speaker 3 (07:29):
So it stands to reason that whomever did this did
not just stumble upon the house.
Speaker 5 (07:35):
A lot of the issues that was of great concern
semantically as these investigations were developing was whether these children
and whether this house was quote targeted in some way.
The initial observations of the law enforcement officials the prosecutor
(07:56):
included with it there was some kind of targeting, and
it was a lot logical conclusion, given where this event
happened and the fact that so many students were involved
as victims. But it is some place that you need
to work to get to and would not necessarily happen
upon even if you were looking for a random place
(08:18):
to commit a crime.
Speaker 1 (08:24):
Here again, Stephanie, Jeff and Connor.
Speaker 7 (08:27):
I want to Google Maps. I just want to map
out where this house on King Road was. And it's
really not a part of the city of Moscow where
people would just sort of end up. It's not near
the main bar area, it's not near the commercial shopping area.
It is a really secluded, little sort of neighborhood. A
lot of people live there, but it's not the type
of place that you would just sort of drive.
Speaker 3 (08:46):
By, and that's been confirmed by a few people that
we've talked to who have actually been to the house,
that it's a truck to get there and you wouldn't
just stumble upon it.
Speaker 7 (08:55):
I think one of the things that is sort of
interesting about the house is it really was considered a
party house, which really isn't all that surprising given the
fact that there's a bunch of upperclassmen living in there.
Some seniors soon to be graduating seniors. It's close to
Toney Row, And I think the real question is is like,
is there any possibility that Brian Coburger would have ever
have been in that house for some other reason?
Speaker 4 (09:15):
And if Brian Coburger, you know, is a PhD student,
whether he was invited or not, maybe he could have
sort of slipped in the back door and without being
spotted or would that be unusual.
Speaker 7 (09:26):
We know that the house had parties where even the
girls weren't always at the parties. I mean there's a
police record of police showing up and none of the
residents of the house or even there, and they're talking
to some people who don't live there, and the police
are like, well, you got a noise complaint. We really
need to talk to somebody who's on the lease. And
so people are always coming and going from this house.
But still, how do you get from Pullman as a
PhD criminology student too, as you said, somebody who's kind
(09:48):
of creepy. How do you end up at an undergraduate
house in a totally different university. It just doesn't seem
likely that Brian would have ended up there unless somebody
invited them.
Speaker 1 (09:59):
If the house on CA Road was targeted, as police say,
was it because of who lived there? Here's Jeff Shane
speaking with reporter and Jeannette Levy from the Law and
Crime Network.
Speaker 3 (10:09):
Does it matter how he knew them?
Speaker 8 (10:11):
I think it becomes relevant if he knew them, because
it's just another dot to connect. I mean, if he
didn't know them, if he actually had never interacted with
any of them, that's so terrifying. If he's indeed the
guilty party, what in the heck is going on? Like
why did you kill these people?
Speaker 5 (10:29):
You know?
Speaker 8 (10:30):
It just I think it's more of like an understanding
it does. It's an explanation, not an excuse, Like, but
I think you have to look at had he ever
interacted with them?
Speaker 3 (10:39):
Because he's like, I don't.
Speaker 1 (10:40):
Know who these girls are.
Speaker 8 (10:41):
I don't know who these people are, and I have
no clue what's going on. Why would I have anything
to do with these kids? They're way younger than I was.
I'm a twenty eight year old PhD student. I mean,
I think it connects a dot if you if he
had indeed interacted with any of them.
Speaker 1 (10:59):
Brian Kobak moved to Pullman, Washington to begin his PhD
studies in June of twenty twenty two. According to a
police have of David, cell phone data showed he was
in the area of the home on King Road at
least twelve times between August twenty twenty two and the murders.
But did Brian Coburger know or have a connection to
(11:20):
any of the victims? Here again, Jeff Connor and Stephanie by.
Speaker 3 (11:26):
All accounts, Ethan being at the house was kind of
just chance. Yes, he stayed with Xana a lot, but
Zana would also stay at his fraternity house, So based
on what we know now, it's stands to reason he
didn't know Ethan would even be home that night.
Speaker 7 (11:40):
Evan's Instagram profile was set to private, but it seems
unlikely that Ethan was the target given the fact that
his social media presence was pretty limited and there's no
connection between Ethan and Brian Koberger.
Speaker 4 (11:54):
What a horrifying thought too, that this could have been
a missed night for him, you know, the sliding.
Speaker 1 (11:59):
Door of that.
Speaker 4 (12:00):
What was it about that particular day in the alleged
assailant's life that said, today's the day. It just makes
you think if he had gotten a flat tire, or
if he had caught a cold, or if the light
was red and not green, something maybe could have shaken
him out of this morning, and who knows, maybe four
(12:21):
people could still be alive. You know, this is the
stuff nightmares.
Speaker 1 (12:24):
Are made of. All three of the female victims, twenty
one year old Kaylee Gonsalves, twenty year old Xana Kernodle,
and twenty one year old Madison Mogan, had public Instagram accounts,
and all three roommates regularly posted to social media, including TikTok.
It doesn't appear that Madison, Kaylee, Zena, or Ethannu Cooburger.
(12:47):
None of them followed anyone by the name of Brian
Coberger on social media. However, Kaylee Consalvas's father, Steve, has
said there are connections between his daughter and Coburger, but
he has not commented on the possible connection.
Speaker 3 (13:01):
With so little information coming out at the beginning, there
was so much speculation about the victims and the accused
and their movements around the murders. As we know, Maddie
and Kaylee spent their final night at the Corner Club,
which is a popular bar in downtown Moscow, and people
had speculated that maybe Coberger had been there, he was
a regular, that he met them there, he saw them there.
(13:22):
There's been nothing to say that that's true. It's possible.
Speaker 7 (13:26):
Yeah, it's not addressed at all in the probable cause affidavit.
It's not addressed by investigators in anywhere. It's just pure speculation. Sure,
anything is possible, but there's nothing linking Brian Koberger to
the Corner Club, either that night or previous nights. And
you know, that's one of those sort of rumors that
I think has kind of been shot down, But it
doesn't seem that that is the connection between Brian Coberger
(13:50):
and the four victims.
Speaker 4 (13:51):
There was also a rumor or there were reports that
Xana and Maddie, as we know, were both waitresses at
the same restaurant, and one of the unidentified workers from
that restaurant claimed that they remembered Coburger attending there because
he had a very strict diet and had very specific
diet requests, but that ended up becoming unfounded as well.
Speaker 1 (14:16):
Reporter an Jeannette Levy also went to the Mad Greek
restaurant and spoke to people there.
Speaker 9 (14:21):
I have been to the Mad Greek, and nobody at
the Mad Greek that I spoke to recalled ever seeing
him there, and they knew the young woman who worked there,
you know, Sannah worked there and Maddie worked there. So
the people I talked with at the Mad Greek did
not recall ever seeing him there.
Speaker 1 (14:40):
The owner of the Mad Greek, Jackie Fisher, also issued
a statement that said there is no evidence that Coburger
ate at the restaurant. Let's stop here for a break,
We'll be back in a moment. Online in media, speculation
(15:03):
about a possible connection between Coburger and the victims has
largely focused on some type of social media connection. Did
Brian Coburger digitally stock Xana, Maddie and Kaylee again Stephanie,
jeff and Connor?
Speaker 4 (15:18):
According to People magazine, Coburger followed Maddie, Kaylee and Xana
before the account was actually deleted, meaning his account was deleted.
There's no mention of the other two roommates. Is that
enough of a connection? And again, is this just rumor?
The outlet also reported that Coburger message at least one
(15:40):
of the victims. They didn't respond, but then apparently Brian
Coburger reached out again and again and again and again
and again. Is that Stocker mentality or is that just
somebody on social media who wants an answer on something
and now that's getting blown into something larger.
Speaker 3 (15:58):
I actually looked for myself in terms of did Brian
follow them, because, as we know, the victims' profiles were
mostly public, and if you search through Kayley's followers, for example,
there are Brian Coberger profiles who follow her, but now
there's a bunch of them. So it's clear that there
are people out in the world who are making accounts
with Brian Coberger's names following these victims, which that level
(16:19):
of depravity is disgusting, But to me, that indicates that
we as the public don't know for sure if you
followed them. Of course, officials might know something we don't
because what People magazine reports that two weeks prior to
the murders in late October, he allegedly sent a message
to one of the victims, basically just saying, hey, how
are you, but he didn't get a response, and kept
repeatedly messaging them over and over again.
Speaker 4 (16:42):
What is a person supposed to do? Somebody reaches out
to them on social media or dms them and they
don't want to engage, so they just ignore. But yet
that ignoring somehow gets potentially obsessive for the person who's
not getting a response. There's no right or wrong answer.
Speaker 7 (17:00):
It seems very plausible, and it makes sense that Brian
Coberger was probably using social media to contact him. I
mean that just as we're trying to find an answer
for what's the connection, that seems like very likely, right,
But you know, an unnamed source in People magazine like,
how much do you want to actually grab onto that
and say yeah, this is this is concrete. It still
(17:20):
feels like until we get it from investigators, it still
feels like just a theory and just an idea as
opposed to something that you can be like, oh yeah,
that definitely happened. That is for a fact, you know
the connection.
Speaker 1 (17:34):
Here's Jeff Shane speaking with Antonette Levy from the Law
on Crime Network.
Speaker 3 (17:39):
Knowing him, though, was such a loose term. I mean,
she could have matched with him on Tender and said, oh,
no thanks, I don't want to go out with you,
and he latched onto that and she wouldn't have known him.
Speaker 8 (17:49):
You're right, And I was actually told that some of
the people on Tender. I was told that some of
the kids in that area use tender for networking and
stuff like that, not just for dating. But I don't
know whether that's true or not. Maybe there could have
been some type of tender connection, I don't know, But
as far as them interacting and you know, hey we
went on a date or we're friends or what have you,
(18:10):
I'm not aware of any connection like that. And frankly,
I think the fact that he went to Maddie's room first,
that to me says a lot. So was she the target?
Did he somehow interact with her at some point in time?
I don't think we know these things.
Speaker 1 (18:24):
Could Brian Kobecker have seen one of the women online
and tried to start a relationship, only to be ignored
and rejected.
Speaker 10 (18:34):
They don't consider murdering women a hate crime, but I
think a lot of these cases are pretty much fall
into that sort of category where you have white men
who are rejected or you know, not they don't get
what they want when they want it, and that's why
they do it, and it's just such a like this
inceell mentality, like where they're just so like women should
just be like, you know, falling out their news to
me and that's not the way the world works. And
then they're just so bitter about it that you know
everything is working out for them that suddenly the world's
(18:55):
against them, and you know they're a victim, and it's,
you know, poor me.
Speaker 1 (19:01):
Chris Bargo is a reporter with the TV magazine show
Inside Edition and has been covering the Idaho murders. He
spoke to Stephanie and Jeff about Brian Coberger's dating life
and what he found out about Coburger's often creepy interactions
with women. Have you heard that he was an inceell?
Speaker 4 (19:18):
Because Jeff and I were talking about that and it
seemed like it was a bit of a perfect example.
Speaker 1 (19:23):
And in cell is an Internet term that describes young
men who are frustrated by their lack of sexual experiences.
It stands for involuntary celibate. Inceels have often been known
to lash out at women when rejected.
Speaker 11 (19:38):
Okay, it's me the girl that went on a tender
date with Brian We matched on Tinder.
Speaker 1 (19:44):
Chris Bargo interviewed a woman named Haley Willett, who went
on a blind date with Coberger when they were both
college students. She posted on social media about her disturbing
interaction with Coburger and his inappropriate in cell like behavior.
Speaker 9 (19:57):
It recognized them immediately in my heart, just because I
couldn't believe that, like I was face to face.
Speaker 3 (20:03):
With this guy.
Speaker 10 (20:06):
So about two weeks after the arrest of Brian Coburger,
a young woman named Haley shares her story on TikTok
that she went on a date with Brian Coburger about
seven years prior. She said they matched on Tinder. They
talked for a few hours, they went to the movie.
It was pretty inconsequential. They drove back to her dormitory,
he parked, and she said that she thought they were
maybe going to talk. She then said she's gonna go
(20:26):
up to her dorm room, and that's when she said
he invited himself up with her. Now, Haley's very clear
that she didn't really feel threatened and she wasn't scared.
She just kind of thought he was a very clingy
sort of guy. So she said, because she's socially awkward,
she didn't really know how to say no, and she
let him come up, and that's when she said things
really started to change. She suddenly became very pushy and
he's kept trying to touch her, and when he would
(20:47):
touch her, she would say what are you doing and
he would say, I'm not touching you and then get
very serious about it, and she just said it got
to the point where she didn't know what else to do,
so she excused herself to go to the bathroom and
then made it sound like she was loudly throwing up.
But instead of leaving, he just stood outside the door.
So she just stayed in there and waited until he
finally left. Then when he did finally leave, he texted
her that she had great birthing hymns. Haley did not
(21:09):
ever speak to him again, and she really posted this
as just sort of a message to women saying, like,
you know, trust your gut. If you think something's off,
do the right thing and just get rid of the guy.
And again she said she wasn't afraid of him. She
just thought it was an awkward, kind of clingy guy
that was probably more into her than she was into.
Speaker 4 (21:24):
Him, wildly creepy and tell us like what was her disposition?
Speaker 10 (21:28):
Like Haley just seemed like someone who was trying to
make a point of sort of sending out a message
to other women that you know, like she said, just
trust your gut. She did not seem to be looking
for any sort of fame or notoriety. She wasn't out courting,
you know, interviews or anything of anything. She was turning
most of them down. And she, of course was dealing
with a horrible backlash of people trying to dos her
and people saying horrible things about her, wanting to know
(21:50):
what she looked like back then versus now, grossly misogynistic
things that happened to pretty much any woman who comes
forward in any of these cases, even if they're not involved.
It seemed like at one point she was getting more
hatred for this murder than the actual suspect. But she know,
she was very clear that something was off about him.
And this is one of the few people we had
(22:11):
spoken to or seen in the media at that point
who wasn't from his hometown that just kind of knew
him as a one off, And there were very few
people that we could get like that.
Speaker 4 (22:20):
Just the idea that you can go in a blind
date with a person who you know seems nice enough
to your point, seems to come from a nice family,
not a bunch of zombies. You know, you check a
bunch of boxes. He's educated, he's on the right track,
and come to find out, you just dodged a real
bullet by locking yourself in the bathroom.
Speaker 1 (22:44):
Coberger's troubled relationship with women only seemed to continue and
often even escalate during his brief time at Washington State University.
In addition to being kicked out of a bar in
Pennsylvania for harrassing the waitresses, Coburger lost his teaching assistant
to job at WSU around the time of the murders.
Speaker 3 (23:08):
Brian Cooberger's behavior at the school had been flagged by
Washington State University.
Speaker 1 (23:14):
This is a really big deal.
Speaker 4 (23:16):
The out of state tuition is fifty thousand dollars at
Washington State University, so his teacher's assistant job was a
really big deal and very important to him. This going
away is a real life changer for him.
Speaker 7 (23:29):
Coburger didn't come from money, right His parents had filed
for bankruptcy at least once, and to have your tuition
paid for for a PhD program is a pretty big deal.
But over the course of the fall, what we really see,
according to all these reports is that his professors in
the criminology department are really troubled by his behavior, and
it seems like some of that behavior is how he
(23:50):
treated undergraduate female students and other women in the PhD program.
Speaker 4 (23:54):
And is that because he's just odd and awkward and
doesn't really have a great sense of social cues, or again,
is this a tale of a real psycho in training.
Speaker 3 (24:05):
But there are some things we do know. Coburger was
not the most inspiring educator and had a tendency to
talk down to people, especially female students. He would grade
them harder and kind of be demeaning to them.
Speaker 5 (24:15):
We know that.
Speaker 3 (24:16):
On September twenty third, about a month into his role
as a TA, there was an altercation between him and
his professor, John Snyder, who was kind of effectively his boss.
Then just a couple weeks later, on October third, Coburger
and members of the faculty of the School of Criminology
had a discussion about the norms of professional behavior and
what to expect moving forward.
Speaker 7 (24:36):
Yeah, I mean norms of professional behavior. That's the phrase
we've heard a lot. There's other reports that he gets
into a screaming match with another female student who leaves
the room because of the way he's talking down to her.
So I mean, when you talk about norms of professional behavior,
it just doesn't sound like he's acting in an appropriate way.
And I think that really is what we're talking about
(24:58):
in this entire story of Brian Coburger, is the way
he views women, the way he treats women, and then
ultimately what he does to women.
Speaker 4 (25:07):
It's interesting because by all accounts from what we've heard,
he comes from a very loving family. So again, it
doesn't really fit the familial mo for someone who's air
quotes anti women.
Speaker 7 (25:19):
No, not at all. But by the end of December,
by the end of the first term, Washington State University
pulls his TA position funding and you know, he essentially
has to now come up with that tuition that fifty
thousand dollars to cover his program. He's terminated from his
teaching assistant position, and so his behavior, imagine what you
have to do to get that teaching position just you know,
(25:43):
yanked from underneath you.
Speaker 6 (25:49):
Someone allegedly broke into the woman's apartment and move things around.
Instead of calling police, the coworker called Coburger, who suggested
and helped her install security cameras.
Speaker 1 (26:00):
Investigators are looking into if Coburger was behind the break
in and use the cameras to spy on his colleague
Stephanie and Connor. Can you imagine if this is actually accurate.
I know all of this is unanswerable in this regard,
but we want to be able to know that the
scary person is obvious and this doesn't seem obvious enough
(26:21):
to me.
Speaker 7 (26:22):
It doesn't seem obvious. But there definitely is a pattern here.
I mean this behavior towards women, whether it was when
he was home in Albrightsville, Pennsylvania, in getting kicked out
of the bar there, or it's at WSU. You know
the way he's interacting with undergraduates and other PhD students.
Oh and by the way, he also got kicked out
of a program in high school as well. So when
you see him on paper, he looks like a really
(26:45):
well put together person. But there's a lot of these
stories that are coming together that really fit a pattern
of somebody who has real serious problems.
Speaker 1 (26:56):
But the allegations of Brian Cooberger's disturbing behavior at w
AS you don't in there. Police are investigating a break
in at the home of a female coworker. Let's stop
here for another break If Brian Coburger was digitally stalking
(27:22):
one of the women in the house. Many have speculated
that either Kaylee Gonsalvez or Madison Mogan were his primary targets,
since they were killed first.
Speaker 3 (27:33):
Kaylee was set to graduate early and had actually moved
out of the house and was only back in town
to visit her friends, show them her new car, and
just have a fun weekend, so she's not living in
this house. We know that Kaylee was sleeping in Maddie's
bed because we know that that's where she was found.
They were both found in her bed. So if Coburger
had been digitally stalking or physically stalking any of these girls,
(27:54):
he would have seen on social media that Kaylee was
back in town. Could this have been the reason why
he struck on that night in November?
Speaker 7 (28:01):
There's multiple photos from that weekend of all of the
roommates together with Ethan as well, And so if you're
digitally stalking, you see that Kaylee's in town. The roommates
are essentially all back together, which is kind of what
they were saying was how great it is to be
all back together, And he might have seen that.
Speaker 4 (28:18):
Can you imagine too? Again, maybe had they not posted
on social media the car or where they were, or
just how happy they were to be together. Maybe he
wouldn't have known.
Speaker 1 (28:32):
Here's Stephanie speaking with Chris Spargo.
Speaker 10 (28:35):
If you don't like gay people and you commit a
crime against a gay person, it's a hate crime. If
you don't like people have a certain race and you
commit a crime against them, it's a hate crime. But
what if you hate women? What if you are like
these young men who feel so entitled to female affection
and then when they don't get it, they carry out
these crimes. Why isn't that a hate crime? And why
aren't we focusing on that aspect of it, because that
(28:56):
seems to get lost in the mix. And being a
woman in the same age is just negotiations. Especially when
you're with men, it seems like you know how you're
going to behave, how you're going to treat them. You
modify your behavior based on the way they're behaving to
protect yourself. If you're on a date with someone for
the first time, if you're maybe going to go home
with someone, you have to sort of map out all
these things because you don't know the person they might
become once you get into their apartment, or they get
(29:17):
into your apartment. It's very, very scary, and even on
a more sort of casual level, if you're talking to
someone and you just don't want to be mean, or
you just don't want to be outwardly rejecting of them,
and you're just nice, that niceness can get misconstrued and
then used against you as some sort of leading them
on or and it's it's ridiculous.
Speaker 4 (29:34):
The relationship between them, well him, I should say, and
is it Kaylee.
Speaker 10 (29:39):
We still don't know for sure that there was any
specific target. It would seem, however, that early suggestions, for
whatever reason, have focused on Kaylee. And Kaylee was getting
ready to move out. She got a job in Texas,
she just bought a new car, She's gonna be working
at an IT firm. Everything is sort of coming together
for her, like she was beginning her life as any adult.
(30:00):
And then she went out with her friend Madison. That night,
Zanna had gone out with her boyfriend. The other two
roommates were also out. They'll get back to their apartment
and then where it gets crazy as the timeframe, because
Xanna gets his door dash delivery at four or five am,
and at four twenty am. The suspect car scenes speeding away.
How do you murder four people in fifteen minutes?
Speaker 1 (30:24):
Kaylee's father, Steve Gonsalvez, has said in several interviews that
his daughter's wounds were significantly more brutal than Madison Mogen's.
Speaker 2 (30:33):
I'll cut in the chase.
Speaker 10 (30:35):
Yeah, their means of debt don't match. I don't match.
Speaker 1 (30:39):
There are points of damage don't match. According to her father,
the knife wounds were deep and slashed open Kayley's liver
and lungs. This type of attack is often described as
an overkill. It's typically a sign that the victim was
an intended target, rather than someone who just happened to
be there.
Speaker 3 (31:02):
Xana's dad told the press that when she was killed,
she had defensive wounds, some of which were so bad
that her fingers were almost cut off, implying that at
some point Shed maybe tried to grab the knife as
it was being kind of lunged at her. So is
it possible that maybe she surprised Coburger after hearing the
other people were killed and he was on his way out.
We also know that Ethan's neck was slashed, which would
(31:23):
imply that he was not in bed, but maybe somewhere
in the room and the doorway is what we've heard.
So while Kaylee had the deepest wounds in comparison to Maddie,
without other information, it's hard to know exactly what that means.
Speaker 7 (31:34):
Yeah, Kaylee's dad has mentioned that her wounds were way
deeper than the other roommates. That's obviously something that investigators
are looking at.
Speaker 5 (31:46):
Well.
Speaker 1 (31:46):
Impossible to know yet who Brian Coberger was specifically targeting.
There are disturbing details about his final days in Pulman,
Washington before driving home. Here again is reporter Chris Bargo.
Speaker 10 (32:00):
I personally think that he knew he was not going
to be able to go back because he wasn't getting
out of the program, but he lost his TA position.
And if you are a TA, you get an in
state tuition and they waive it for a year, and
there's all these sort of allowances, but if you're not
a TA, you have to pay full out of date.
And suddenly he's pay like forty thousand dollars to go
back in the spring. That's a huge leap for someone
who didn't really have a job before that. So I
don't know that he would be able to do it.
So either he moved everything out of that apartment knowing
(32:22):
he wasn't coming back, or he actually lived like that
where there was no shower curtain, there was you know,
like a stripped mattress. It was no furniture in there,
like one TV. And I think that when the public
defender came to get the stuff, she took like a TV,
a CD tower, and like a monitor.
Speaker 4 (32:37):
That was it.
Speaker 10 (32:38):
So it's just sort of a very bare bones, chilling
sort of setup.
Speaker 1 (32:46):
More on that next time. For more information on the
case and relevant photos, follow us on Instagram at kt
Underscore Studios. The Idaho Mascer is produced by Stephanie Laidecker,
Jeff Sheene, Connor Powell, Chris Bargo, Gabriel Castillo, and me
Courtney Armstrong. Editing and sound designed by Jeff Toi. Music
(33:09):
by Jared Aston. The Idaho Massacre is a production of
iHeart Radio and Kati's Studios. For more podcasts like this,
visit the iHeartRadio app, Apple Podcasts, or wherever you listen
to your favorite shows.
Speaker 11 (33:55):
I'm Diana h You may Knows, Body Moving, My Friend,
and I John Green were featured in the Netflix documentary
Don't f With Cats. On our new podcast, True Crimes
with John, Indiana were turning our online investigative skills to
some of the most unexplained, unsolved, and most ignored cases.
Speaker 3 (34:12):
Police say thirty three year old Bride Again was shot dead.
Speaker 8 (34:15):
Gunned down in front of his two year old daughter.
Speaker 4 (34:18):
Detectives confirmed that it was a targeted attack.
Speaker 2 (34:21):
It appears to be an execution style of assassination.
Speaker 4 (34:24):
This is very active, so we have to be careful.
I've heard that there's a house that has some bodies
in the basement.
Speaker 10 (34:30):
I knew, I just knew the move was wrong.
Speaker 3 (34:33):
Maybe there's something more sinister at play than just one
young girl going missing. If you know something, heard something,
please it's never too late to.
Speaker 7 (34:43):
Do the right thing.
Speaker 1 (34:45):
This is True Crimes with John and Deiana, the.
Speaker 3 (34:47):
Production of KT Studios and iHeartRadio. Justice is something that
takes different shapes or formed.
Moscow Police are investigating a homicide on King Rhode.
Speaker 2 (00:08):
Cause and manner of death was homicide by stabbing.
Speaker 3 (00:12):
This is terrible.
Speaker 4 (00:13):
It's a blood death.
Speaker 1 (00:20):
This is the Idaho Massacre. A production of KT Studios
and iHeartRadio, episode three In Search of a Connection. I'm
Courtney Armstrong, a television producer at KT Studios. With Stephanie Leidecker,
Jeff Shane, and Connor Powell. An unthinkable nightmare comes to
(00:45):
life in the small college community of Moscow. Four students
at the University of Idaho butcher to death in the
early hours of Sunday, November thirteenth. The gruesome murders spark
a multi state investigation stretch from Washington to Idaho to Pennsylvania.
(01:05):
The forty eight day investigation ends it on the other
side of the country with the stunning arrest of a
PhD criminal student and would be law enforcement officer named
Brian Coberger. Moscow Police James fry On the arrest.
Speaker 2 (01:20):
These tragic murders took four young, vibrant lives from our community.
Speaker 5 (01:25):
These murders have.
Speaker 2 (01:26):
Shaken our community and no arrest will ever bring back
these young students. However, we do believe justice will be
found through the criminal process.
Speaker 6 (01:38):
Was there some sort of connection.
Speaker 1 (01:40):
I think that it is likely that there's a relationship
between these four students and this person. From the first
hours of the investigation, law enforcement officials described the murders
of Kaylee Gonsalvez, Madison Mogan, Xana Kernodle, and Eitha Chapin
as a targeted attack, but police offered no other information.
(02:05):
Shannon Gray, an attorney representing the family of soon to
graduate senior Killie Gonsalvez, said publicly that none of the
victims knew Brian Coberger, leaving the question how is this
a targeted attack? Here's Stephanie Leideker, Jeff Shane and producer
Connor Powell.
Speaker 3 (02:26):
I think when we all picture a murder of this size,
we picture a masked killer like you see in the movies,
But in reality, stranger homicide is extremely rare. This changes
from year to year, but typically around fifty percent of
all murder victims are killed by someone they know. So
it begs the question, how did the accuse, Brian Coburger
know the victims.
Speaker 4 (02:44):
It does feel like there has to be some connective
tissue in some way either maybe they met in passing
or maybe they had some sort of class together.
Speaker 7 (02:53):
Social media allows people to know people but not actually
know them, that they can follow them, they can essentially
digital stock them. So he might have known them and
they might never have known him.
Speaker 3 (03:05):
And that's actually a parasocial relationship, which is this one
way relationship we have with it used to be people
on TV, in the movies, but now with the social media,
you really can intimately know someone without ever having met them.
Speaker 4 (03:17):
And you can also see the layout to their home.
We're on social media and we're doing it in our
houses or outside of our houses, and that can be
a real tell for anybody who's a predator.
Speaker 3 (03:29):
As we know, the victims were frequently posting on social media,
which oftentimes showed the layout of their home.
Speaker 1 (03:38):
The six bedroom house on King Road is tucked away
in a residential area of Moscow. It's surrounded by an
eighteen hole golf course, the University of Idaho's fraternity row,
and other residential homes. It sits about two miles from
the large commercial shopping area where the Target and Walmart
are and about two miles from the main downtown bar area.
Speaker 5 (04:03):
About four years before the crime, I was in Moscow, Idaho,
for homecoming. I was campaigning for Congress in the first
District of Idaho, so participated in the homecoming parade, passing
out literature, shaking a few hands, waving at the crowd.
At the conclusion of the parade, one of my good
supporters who was also in town, a friend of mine
(04:24):
and a law office client of mine, had a son
who was one of the rental residents leasing that particular property.
Speaker 1 (04:32):
That's David H. Leroy speaking to producer Jeff Shane. Leroy
is a former local prosecutor turned defense attorney. He served
as Idaho's Attorney General. He's also a graduate of the
University of Idaho College of Law and has been in
the house where the murders happened.
Speaker 5 (04:50):
So we went over to the house, ended up on
the second floor in a living room area, and chatted
with his son and the other two three residents who
were students at the university at that time living in
the house where the crime would be committed. About four
years later.
Speaker 3 (05:07):
What was it like being in there?
Speaker 5 (05:09):
A gray, three story building set in a relatively hard
to get to backwater street up against a hill, so
that you have a couple of different levels of entry
in the house. To go into the lowest level is
basically almost a daylight type basement, and then you must
(05:30):
walk up a stairway to get to the second floor,
where bedrooms and the living room area occupy the front
of the house. Upstairs, there are additional bedrooms. We didn't
visit those, but it's a three story set against the
hill structure that has multiple entrance levels and multiple exit levels.
Speaker 3 (05:52):
You were a student there, so you've I imagined lived
in different places. It was this house typical of where
a student might live in Moscow.
Speaker 5 (06:00):
This house was probably built in the nineteen seventies, no
later than the eighties, in an area that's immediately adjacent
to campus, literally the campus boundary and the fraternities and
sororities that ring the center of the campus against a
large hill which is topped by the University of Idaho's
(06:22):
water tower with a big emblematic eye on the exterior
of the structure. Is no more than a quarter of
a mile off campus. It's against a hill with single
family residences and other student population apartment buildings, and it's
perhaps no more than half a mile from the center
(06:44):
of the campus. Two thirds of a mile from the
student union itself.
Speaker 3 (06:49):
When they weren't sure who did it, they thought this
couldn't be that random because this house was kind of
tucked away. It was a little bit on It's not
like a cul de sac, but it's a little bit
of a dead end, like it's on a major thoroughfare.
What's your take on that.
Speaker 5 (07:01):
Now, there's no immediate arterial approximate to this house. You
must turn off an arterial and then off a sub arterial,
and then off that sub arterial to go up a
hillside almost to a dead end about one hundred or
one hundred and twenty five yards before you get to
this house. To get to this structure where the killings
(07:23):
took place, you have to work at it, and you
don't immediately pass by it on your way to anything else.
Speaker 3 (07:29):
So it stands to reason that whomever did this did
not just stumble upon the house.
Speaker 5 (07:35):
A lot of the issues that was of great concern
semantically as these investigations were developing was whether these children
and whether this house was quote targeted in some way.
The initial observations of the law enforcement officials the prosecutor
(07:56):
included with it there was some kind of targeting, and
it was a lot logical conclusion, given where this event
happened and the fact that so many students were involved
as victims. But it is some place that you need
to work to get to and would not necessarily happen
upon even if you were looking for a random place
(08:18):
to commit a crime.
Speaker 1 (08:24):
Here again, Stephanie, Jeff and Connor.
Speaker 7 (08:27):
I want to Google Maps. I just want to map
out where this house on King Road was. And it's
really not a part of the city of Moscow where
people would just sort of end up. It's not near
the main bar area, it's not near the commercial shopping area.
It is a really secluded, little sort of neighborhood. A
lot of people live there, but it's not the type
of place that you would just sort of drive.
Speaker 3 (08:46):
By, and that's been confirmed by a few people that
we've talked to who have actually been to the house,
that it's a truck to get there and you wouldn't
just stumble upon it.
Speaker 7 (08:55):
I think one of the things that is sort of
interesting about the house is it really was considered a
party house, which really isn't all that surprising given the
fact that there's a bunch of upperclassmen living in there.
Some seniors soon to be graduating seniors. It's close to
Toney Row, And I think the real question is is like,
is there any possibility that Brian Coburger would have ever
have been in that house for some other reason?
Speaker 4 (09:15):
And if Brian Coburger, you know, is a PhD student,
whether he was invited or not, maybe he could have
sort of slipped in the back door and without being
spotted or would that be unusual.
Speaker 7 (09:26):
We know that the house had parties where even the
girls weren't always at the parties. I mean there's a
police record of police showing up and none of the
residents of the house or even there, and they're talking
to some people who don't live there, and the police
are like, well, you got a noise complaint. We really
need to talk to somebody who's on the lease. And
so people are always coming and going from this house.
But still, how do you get from Pullman as a
PhD criminology student too, as you said, somebody who's kind
(09:48):
of creepy. How do you end up at an undergraduate
house in a totally different university. It just doesn't seem
likely that Brian would have ended up there unless somebody
invited them.
Speaker 1 (09:59):
If the house on CA Road was targeted, as police say,
was it because of who lived there? Here's Jeff Shane
speaking with reporter and Jeannette Levy from the Law and
Crime Network.
Speaker 3 (10:09):
Does it matter how he knew them?
Speaker 8 (10:11):
I think it becomes relevant if he knew them, because
it's just another dot to connect. I mean, if he
didn't know them, if he actually had never interacted with
any of them, that's so terrifying. If he's indeed the
guilty party, what in the heck is going on? Like
why did you kill these people?
Speaker 5 (10:29):
You know?
Speaker 8 (10:30):
It just I think it's more of like an understanding
it does. It's an explanation, not an excuse, Like, but
I think you have to look at had he ever
interacted with them?
Speaker 3 (10:39):
Because he's like, I don't.
Speaker 1 (10:40):
Know who these girls are.
Speaker 8 (10:41):
I don't know who these people are, and I have
no clue what's going on. Why would I have anything
to do with these kids? They're way younger than I was.
I'm a twenty eight year old PhD student. I mean,
I think it connects a dot if you if he
had indeed interacted with any of them.
Speaker 1 (10:59):
Brian Kobak moved to Pullman, Washington to begin his PhD
studies in June of twenty twenty two. According to a
police have of David, cell phone data showed he was
in the area of the home on King Road at
least twelve times between August twenty twenty two and the murders.
But did Brian Coburger know or have a connection to
(11:20):
any of the victims? Here again, Jeff Connor and Stephanie by.
Speaker 3 (11:26):
All accounts, Ethan being at the house was kind of
just chance. Yes, he stayed with Xana a lot, but
Zana would also stay at his fraternity house, So based
on what we know now, it's stands to reason he
didn't know Ethan would even be home that night.
Speaker 7 (11:40):
Evan's Instagram profile was set to private, but it seems
unlikely that Ethan was the target given the fact that
his social media presence was pretty limited and there's no
connection between Ethan and Brian Koberger.
Speaker 4 (11:54):
What a horrifying thought too, that this could have been
a missed night for him, you know, the sliding.
Speaker 1 (11:59):
Door of that.
Speaker 4 (12:00):
What was it about that particular day in the alleged
assailant's life that said, today's the day. It just makes
you think if he had gotten a flat tire, or
if he had caught a cold, or if the light
was red and not green, something maybe could have shaken
him out of this morning, and who knows, maybe four
(12:21):
people could still be alive. You know, this is the
stuff nightmares.
Speaker 1 (12:24):
Are made of. All three of the female victims, twenty
one year old Kaylee Gonsalves, twenty year old Xana Kernodle,
and twenty one year old Madison Mogan, had public Instagram accounts,
and all three roommates regularly posted to social media, including TikTok.
It doesn't appear that Madison, Kaylee, Zena, or Ethannu Cooburger.
(12:47):
None of them followed anyone by the name of Brian
Coberger on social media. However, Kaylee Consalvas's father, Steve, has
said there are connections between his daughter and Coburger, but
he has not commented on the possible connection.
Speaker 3 (13:01):
With so little information coming out at the beginning, there
was so much speculation about the victims and the accused
and their movements around the murders. As we know, Maddie
and Kaylee spent their final night at the Corner Club,
which is a popular bar in downtown Moscow, and people
had speculated that maybe Coberger had been there, he was
a regular, that he met them there, he saw them there.
(13:22):
There's been nothing to say that that's true. It's possible.
Speaker 7 (13:26):
Yeah, it's not addressed at all in the probable cause affidavit.
It's not addressed by investigators in anywhere. It's just pure speculation. Sure,
anything is possible, but there's nothing linking Brian Koberger to
the Corner Club, either that night or previous nights. And
you know, that's one of those sort of rumors that
I think has kind of been shot down, But it
doesn't seem that that is the connection between Brian Coberger
(13:50):
and the four victims.
Speaker 4 (13:51):
There was also a rumor or there were reports that
Xana and Maddie, as we know, were both waitresses at
the same restaurant, and one of the unidentified workers from
that restaurant claimed that they remembered Coburger attending there because
he had a very strict diet and had very specific
diet requests, but that ended up becoming unfounded as well.
Speaker 1 (14:16):
Reporter an Jeannette Levy also went to the Mad Greek
restaurant and spoke to people there.
Speaker 9 (14:21):
I have been to the Mad Greek, and nobody at
the Mad Greek that I spoke to recalled ever seeing
him there, and they knew the young woman who worked there,
you know, Sannah worked there and Maddie worked there. So
the people I talked with at the Mad Greek did
not recall ever seeing him there.
Speaker 1 (14:40):
The owner of the Mad Greek, Jackie Fisher, also issued
a statement that said there is no evidence that Coburger
ate at the restaurant. Let's stop here for a break,
We'll be back in a moment. Online in media, speculation
(15:03):
about a possible connection between Coburger and the victims has
largely focused on some type of social media connection. Did
Brian Coburger digitally stock Xana, Maddie and Kaylee again Stephanie,
jeff and Connor?
Speaker 4 (15:18):
According to People magazine, Coburger followed Maddie, Kaylee and Xana
before the account was actually deleted, meaning his account was deleted.
There's no mention of the other two roommates. Is that
enough of a connection? And again, is this just rumor?
The outlet also reported that Coburger message at least one
(15:40):
of the victims. They didn't respond, but then apparently Brian
Coburger reached out again and again and again and again
and again. Is that Stocker mentality or is that just
somebody on social media who wants an answer on something
and now that's getting blown into something larger.
Speaker 3 (15:58):
I actually looked for myself in terms of did Brian
follow them, because, as we know, the victims' profiles were
mostly public, and if you search through Kayley's followers, for example,
there are Brian Coberger profiles who follow her, but now
there's a bunch of them. So it's clear that there
are people out in the world who are making accounts
with Brian Coberger's names following these victims, which that level
(16:19):
of depravity is disgusting, But to me, that indicates that
we as the public don't know for sure if you
followed them. Of course, officials might know something we don't
because what People magazine reports that two weeks prior to
the murders in late October, he allegedly sent a message
to one of the victims, basically just saying, hey, how
are you, but he didn't get a response, and kept
repeatedly messaging them over and over again.
Speaker 4 (16:42):
What is a person supposed to do? Somebody reaches out
to them on social media or dms them and they
don't want to engage, so they just ignore. But yet
that ignoring somehow gets potentially obsessive for the person who's
not getting a response. There's no right or wrong answer.
Speaker 7 (17:00):
It seems very plausible, and it makes sense that Brian
Coberger was probably using social media to contact him. I
mean that just as we're trying to find an answer
for what's the connection, that seems like very likely, right,
But you know, an unnamed source in People magazine like,
how much do you want to actually grab onto that
and say yeah, this is this is concrete. It still
(17:20):
feels like until we get it from investigators, it still
feels like just a theory and just an idea as
opposed to something that you can be like, oh yeah,
that definitely happened. That is for a fact, you know
the connection.
Speaker 1 (17:34):
Here's Jeff Shane speaking with Antonette Levy from the Law
on Crime Network.
Speaker 3 (17:39):
Knowing him, though, was such a loose term. I mean,
she could have matched with him on Tender and said, oh,
no thanks, I don't want to go out with you,
and he latched onto that and she wouldn't have known him.
Speaker 8 (17:49):
You're right, And I was actually told that some of
the people on Tender. I was told that some of
the kids in that area use tender for networking and
stuff like that, not just for dating. But I don't
know whether that's true or not. Maybe there could have
been some type of tender connection, I don't know, But
as far as them interacting and you know, hey we
went on a date or we're friends or what have you,
(18:10):
I'm not aware of any connection like that. And frankly,
I think the fact that he went to Maddie's room first,
that to me says a lot. So was she the target?
Did he somehow interact with her at some point in time?
I don't think we know these things.
Speaker 1 (18:24):
Could Brian Kobecker have seen one of the women online
and tried to start a relationship, only to be ignored
and rejected.
Speaker 10 (18:34):
They don't consider murdering women a hate crime, but I
think a lot of these cases are pretty much fall
into that sort of category where you have white men
who are rejected or you know, not they don't get
what they want when they want it, and that's why
they do it, and it's just such a like this
inceell mentality, like where they're just so like women should
just be like, you know, falling out their news to
me and that's not the way the world works. And
then they're just so bitter about it that you know
everything is working out for them that suddenly the world's
(18:55):
against them, and you know they're a victim, and it's,
you know, poor me.
Speaker 1 (19:01):
Chris Bargo is a reporter with the TV magazine show
Inside Edition and has been covering the Idaho murders. He
spoke to Stephanie and Jeff about Brian Coberger's dating life
and what he found out about Coburger's often creepy interactions
with women. Have you heard that he was an inceell?
Speaker 4 (19:18):
Because Jeff and I were talking about that and it
seemed like it was a bit of a perfect example.
Speaker 1 (19:23):
And in cell is an Internet term that describes young
men who are frustrated by their lack of sexual experiences.
It stands for involuntary celibate. Inceels have often been known
to lash out at women when rejected.
Speaker 11 (19:38):
Okay, it's me the girl that went on a tender
date with Brian We matched on Tinder.
Speaker 1 (19:44):
Chris Bargo interviewed a woman named Haley Willett, who went
on a blind date with Coberger when they were both
college students. She posted on social media about her disturbing
interaction with Coburger and his inappropriate in cell like behavior.
Speaker 9 (19:57):
It recognized them immediately in my heart, just because I
couldn't believe that, like I was face to face.
Speaker 3 (20:03):
With this guy.
Speaker 10 (20:06):
So about two weeks after the arrest of Brian Coburger,
a young woman named Haley shares her story on TikTok
that she went on a date with Brian Coburger about
seven years prior. She said they matched on Tinder. They
talked for a few hours, they went to the movie.
It was pretty inconsequential. They drove back to her dormitory,
he parked, and she said that she thought they were
maybe going to talk. She then said she's gonna go
(20:26):
up to her dorm room, and that's when she said
he invited himself up with her. Now, Haley's very clear
that she didn't really feel threatened and she wasn't scared.
She just kind of thought he was a very clingy
sort of guy. So she said, because she's socially awkward,
she didn't really know how to say no, and she
let him come up, and that's when she said things
really started to change. She suddenly became very pushy and
he's kept trying to touch her, and when he would
(20:47):
touch her, she would say what are you doing and
he would say, I'm not touching you and then get
very serious about it, and she just said it got
to the point where she didn't know what else to do,
so she excused herself to go to the bathroom and
then made it sound like she was loudly throwing up.
But instead of leaving, he just stood outside the door.
So she just stayed in there and waited until he
finally left. Then when he did finally leave, he texted
her that she had great birthing hymns. Haley did not
(21:09):
ever speak to him again, and she really posted this
as just sort of a message to women saying, like,
you know, trust your gut. If you think something's off,
do the right thing and just get rid of the guy.
And again she said she wasn't afraid of him. She
just thought it was an awkward, kind of clingy guy
that was probably more into her than she was into.
Speaker 4 (21:24):
Him, wildly creepy and tell us like what was her disposition?
Speaker 10 (21:28):
Like Haley just seemed like someone who was trying to
make a point of sort of sending out a message
to other women that you know, like she said, just
trust your gut. She did not seem to be looking
for any sort of fame or notoriety. She wasn't out courting,
you know, interviews or anything of anything. She was turning
most of them down. And she, of course was dealing
with a horrible backlash of people trying to dos her
and people saying horrible things about her, wanting to know
(21:50):
what she looked like back then versus now, grossly misogynistic
things that happened to pretty much any woman who comes
forward in any of these cases, even if they're not involved.
It seemed like at one point she was getting more
hatred for this murder than the actual suspect. But she know,
she was very clear that something was off about him.
And this is one of the few people we had
(22:11):
spoken to or seen in the media at that point
who wasn't from his hometown that just kind of knew
him as a one off, And there were very few
people that we could get like that.
Speaker 4 (22:20):
Just the idea that you can go in a blind
date with a person who you know seems nice enough
to your point, seems to come from a nice family,
not a bunch of zombies. You know, you check a
bunch of boxes. He's educated, he's on the right track,
and come to find out, you just dodged a real
bullet by locking yourself in the bathroom.
Speaker 1 (22:44):
Coberger's troubled relationship with women only seemed to continue and
often even escalate during his brief time at Washington State University.
In addition to being kicked out of a bar in
Pennsylvania for harrassing the waitresses, Coburger lost his teaching assistant
to job at WSU around the time of the murders.
Speaker 3 (23:08):
Brian Cooberger's behavior at the school had been flagged by
Washington State University.
Speaker 1 (23:14):
This is a really big deal.
Speaker 4 (23:16):
The out of state tuition is fifty thousand dollars at
Washington State University, so his teacher's assistant job was a
really big deal and very important to him. This going
away is a real life changer for him.
Speaker 7 (23:29):
Coburger didn't come from money, right His parents had filed
for bankruptcy at least once, and to have your tuition
paid for for a PhD program is a pretty big deal.
But over the course of the fall, what we really see,
according to all these reports is that his professors in
the criminology department are really troubled by his behavior, and
it seems like some of that behavior is how he
(23:50):
treated undergraduate female students and other women in the PhD program.
Speaker 4 (23:54):
And is that because he's just odd and awkward and
doesn't really have a great sense of social cues, or again,
is this a tale of a real psycho in training.
Speaker 3 (24:05):
But there are some things we do know. Coburger was
not the most inspiring educator and had a tendency to
talk down to people, especially female students. He would grade
them harder and kind of be demeaning to them.
Speaker 5 (24:15):
We know that.
Speaker 3 (24:16):
On September twenty third, about a month into his role
as a TA, there was an altercation between him and
his professor, John Snyder, who was kind of effectively his boss.
Then just a couple weeks later, on October third, Coburger
and members of the faculty of the School of Criminology
had a discussion about the norms of professional behavior and
what to expect moving forward.
Speaker 7 (24:36):
Yeah, I mean norms of professional behavior. That's the phrase
we've heard a lot. There's other reports that he gets
into a screaming match with another female student who leaves
the room because of the way he's talking down to her.
So I mean, when you talk about norms of professional behavior,
it just doesn't sound like he's acting in an appropriate way.
And I think that really is what we're talking about
(24:58):
in this entire story of Brian Coburger, is the way
he views women, the way he treats women, and then
ultimately what he does to women.
Speaker 4 (25:07):
It's interesting because by all accounts from what we've heard,
he comes from a very loving family. So again, it
doesn't really fit the familial mo for someone who's air
quotes anti women.
Speaker 7 (25:19):
No, not at all. But by the end of December,
by the end of the first term, Washington State University
pulls his TA position funding and you know, he essentially
has to now come up with that tuition that fifty
thousand dollars to cover his program. He's terminated from his
teaching assistant position, and so his behavior, imagine what you
have to do to get that teaching position just you know,
(25:43):
yanked from underneath you.
Speaker 6 (25:49):
Someone allegedly broke into the woman's apartment and move things around.
Instead of calling police, the coworker called Coburger, who suggested
and helped her install security cameras.
Speaker 1 (26:00):
Investigators are looking into if Coburger was behind the break
in and use the cameras to spy on his colleague
Stephanie and Connor. Can you imagine if this is actually accurate.
I know all of this is unanswerable in this regard,
but we want to be able to know that the
scary person is obvious and this doesn't seem obvious enough
(26:21):
to me.
Speaker 7 (26:22):
It doesn't seem obvious. But there definitely is a pattern here.
I mean this behavior towards women, whether it was when
he was home in Albrightsville, Pennsylvania, in getting kicked out
of the bar there, or it's at WSU. You know
the way he's interacting with undergraduates and other PhD students.
Oh and by the way, he also got kicked out
of a program in high school as well. So when
you see him on paper, he looks like a really
(26:45):
well put together person. But there's a lot of these
stories that are coming together that really fit a pattern
of somebody who has real serious problems.
Speaker 1 (26:56):
But the allegations of Brian Cooberger's disturbing behavior at w
AS you don't in there. Police are investigating a break
in at the home of a female coworker. Let's stop
here for another break If Brian Coburger was digitally stalking
(27:22):
one of the women in the house. Many have speculated
that either Kaylee Gonsalvez or Madison Mogan were his primary targets,
since they were killed first.
Speaker 3 (27:33):
Kaylee was set to graduate early and had actually moved
out of the house and was only back in town
to visit her friends, show them her new car, and
just have a fun weekend, so she's not living in
this house. We know that Kaylee was sleeping in Maddie's
bed because we know that that's where she was found.
They were both found in her bed. So if Coburger
had been digitally stalking or physically stalking any of these girls,
(27:54):
he would have seen on social media that Kaylee was
back in town. Could this have been the reason why
he struck on that night in November?
Speaker 7 (28:01):
There's multiple photos from that weekend of all of the
roommates together with Ethan as well, And so if you're
digitally stalking, you see that Kaylee's in town. The roommates
are essentially all back together, which is kind of what
they were saying was how great it is to be
all back together, And he might have seen that.
Speaker 4 (28:18):
Can you imagine too? Again, maybe had they not posted
on social media the car or where they were, or
just how happy they were to be together. Maybe he
wouldn't have known.
Speaker 1 (28:32):
Here's Stephanie speaking with Chris Spargo.
Speaker 10 (28:35):
If you don't like gay people and you commit a
crime against a gay person, it's a hate crime. If
you don't like people have a certain race and you
commit a crime against them, it's a hate crime. But
what if you hate women? What if you are like
these young men who feel so entitled to female affection
and then when they don't get it, they carry out
these crimes. Why isn't that a hate crime? And why
aren't we focusing on that aspect of it, because that
(28:56):
seems to get lost in the mix. And being a
woman in the same age is just negotiations. Especially when
you're with men, it seems like you know how you're
going to behave, how you're going to treat them. You
modify your behavior based on the way they're behaving to
protect yourself. If you're on a date with someone for
the first time, if you're maybe going to go home
with someone, you have to sort of map out all
these things because you don't know the person they might
become once you get into their apartment, or they get
(29:17):
into your apartment. It's very, very scary, and even on
a more sort of casual level, if you're talking to
someone and you just don't want to be mean, or
you just don't want to be outwardly rejecting of them,
and you're just nice, that niceness can get misconstrued and
then used against you as some sort of leading them
on or and it's it's ridiculous.
Speaker 4 (29:34):
The relationship between them, well him, I should say, and
is it Kaylee.
Speaker 10 (29:39):
We still don't know for sure that there was any
specific target. It would seem, however, that early suggestions, for
whatever reason, have focused on Kaylee. And Kaylee was getting
ready to move out. She got a job in Texas,
she just bought a new car, She's gonna be working
at an IT firm. Everything is sort of coming together
for her, like she was beginning her life as any adult.
(30:00):
And then she went out with her friend Madison. That night,
Zanna had gone out with her boyfriend. The other two
roommates were also out. They'll get back to their apartment
and then where it gets crazy as the timeframe, because
Xanna gets his door dash delivery at four or five am,
and at four twenty am. The suspect car scenes speeding away.
How do you murder four people in fifteen minutes?
Speaker 1 (30:24):
Kaylee's father, Steve Gonsalvez, has said in several interviews that
his daughter's wounds were significantly more brutal than Madison Mogen's.
Speaker 2 (30:33):
I'll cut in the chase.
Speaker 10 (30:35):
Yeah, their means of debt don't match. I don't match.
Speaker 1 (30:39):
There are points of damage don't match. According to her father,
the knife wounds were deep and slashed open Kayley's liver
and lungs. This type of attack is often described as
an overkill. It's typically a sign that the victim was
an intended target, rather than someone who just happened to
be there.
Speaker 3 (31:02):
Xana's dad told the press that when she was killed,
she had defensive wounds, some of which were so bad
that her fingers were almost cut off, implying that at
some point Shed maybe tried to grab the knife as
it was being kind of lunged at her. So is
it possible that maybe she surprised Coburger after hearing the
other people were killed and he was on his way out.
We also know that Ethan's neck was slashed, which would
(31:23):
imply that he was not in bed, but maybe somewhere
in the room and the doorway is what we've heard.
So while Kaylee had the deepest wounds in comparison to Maddie,
without other information, it's hard to know exactly what that means.
Speaker 7 (31:34):
Yeah, Kaylee's dad has mentioned that her wounds were way
deeper than the other roommates. That's obviously something that investigators
are looking at.
Speaker 5 (31:46):
Well.
Speaker 1 (31:46):
Impossible to know yet who Brian Coberger was specifically targeting.
There are disturbing details about his final days in Pulman,
Washington before driving home. Here again is reporter Chris Bargo.
Speaker 10 (32:00):
I personally think that he knew he was not going
to be able to go back because he wasn't getting
out of the program, but he lost his TA position.
And if you are a TA, you get an in
state tuition and they waive it for a year, and
there's all these sort of allowances, but if you're not
a TA, you have to pay full out of date.
And suddenly he's pay like forty thousand dollars to go
back in the spring. That's a huge leap for someone
who didn't really have a job before that. So I
don't know that he would be able to do it.
So either he moved everything out of that apartment knowing
(32:22):
he wasn't coming back, or he actually lived like that
where there was no shower curtain, there was you know,
like a stripped mattress. It was no furniture in there,
like one TV. And I think that when the public
defender came to get the stuff, she took like a TV,
a CD tower, and like a monitor.
Speaker 4 (32:37):
That was it.
Speaker 10 (32:38):
So it's just sort of a very bare bones, chilling
sort of setup.
Speaker 1 (32:46):
More on that next time. For more information on the
case and relevant photos, follow us on Instagram at kt
Underscore Studios. The Idaho Mascer is produced by Stephanie Laidecker,
Jeff Sheene, Connor Powell, Chris Bargo, Gabriel Castillo, and me
Courtney Armstrong. Editing and sound designed by Jeff Toi. Music
(33:09):
by Jared Aston. The Idaho Massacre is a production of
iHeart Radio and Kati's Studios. For more podcasts like this,
visit the iHeartRadio app, Apple Podcasts, or wherever you listen
to your favorite shows.
Speaker 11 (33:55):
I'm Diana h You may Knows, Body Moving, My Friend,
and I John Green were featured in the Netflix documentary
Don't f With Cats. On our new podcast, True Crimes
with John, Indiana were turning our online investigative skills to
some of the most unexplained, unsolved, and most ignored cases.
Speaker 3 (34:12):
Police say thirty three year old Bride Again was shot dead.
Speaker 8 (34:15):
Gunned down in front of his two year old daughter.
Speaker 4 (34:18):
Detectives confirmed that it was a targeted attack.
Speaker 2 (34:21):
It appears to be an execution style of assassination.
Speaker 4 (34:24):
This is very active, so we have to be careful.
I've heard that there's a house that has some bodies
in the basement.
Speaker 10 (34:30):
I knew, I just knew the move was wrong.
Speaker 3 (34:33):
Maybe there's something more sinister at play than just one
young girl going missing. If you know something, heard something,
please it's never too late to.
Speaker 7 (34:43):
Do the right thing.
Speaker 1 (34:45):
This is True Crimes with John and Deiana, the.
Speaker 3 (34:47):
Production of KT Studios and iHeartRadio. Justice is something that
takes different shapes or formed.
Hosts And Creators
Stephanie Lydecker
Courtney Armstrong
Jeff Shane
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