February 8, 2023 • 27 mins
For years, the Wagners were shrouded in mystery, but now family insiders take the stand providing invaluable insight into their complex dynamics. Also joining us is a founding board member of the Innocence Project and host of the podcast, Wrongful Conviction, Jason Flom.
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Episode Transcript
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Speaker 1 (00:02):
Continuing coverage. Now more family members associated with the Wagners
take the witness stand against George Wagner the fourth Can
you tell us what your relationship was like with the Angela?
I did not like her? And why was that she
was so judgmental? She would judge people when she had
more skeletons in her closet than anybody. Now, during cross examination,
(00:26):
Chris Newcomb told defense attorney John Parker that George Wagner
is like the brother he always wanted. He had far
less kind things to say about Jake. If I'd have
had Jake in front of me at the time, I'd
probably beat him, do an ens of his life. Why
something like that should have never been done? Ever? That
is a monstrous act in my opinion. Even Shakespeare compared
(00:50):
the trial to a grant stage that people kind of
present on. The only difference is is you know at
the end of play you're going to go home. But
with this born to death row, this is the Pike
Did Massacre Return to Pike County Season four, episode fifteen,
(01:16):
Just like the movies, I'm Courtney Armstrong, a television producer
at KAT Studios with Stephanie Leidecker and Jeff Shane. The
murder trial of George Wagner the Fourth, taking place in
the Little Red Courthouse in Waverley, Ohio, continues. A fall
chill is beginning to grip the small town, with overcast
guys and temperatures in the low fifties. There's a promise
(01:41):
of a much more abiding winter ahead. In the biggest
criminal proceeding in Ohio's history, Special Prosecutor Angie Kineppa is
seeking justice for the execution style murders of eight members
of the Rodin, Gilly, and Manly families in twenty sixteen.
It's been a profoundly emotional trial well, as the Rodent
family members and friends have been forced to relive the
(02:03):
earth shattering murders that left their family in ruins, murders
that George Wagner the Fourth's defense team claims he had
nothing to do with. George Wagner has pled not guilty
to all charges, as has his father, Billy Wagner, whose
child is upcoming. George's brother Jake, and his mother Angela
(02:24):
have already pled guilty. While it's true that there's been
little hard evidence tying George Wagner to the actual crime scenes,
prosecutor Kneppa has mounted a strong argument that the Wagners
did everything as in inexetorable Unit Today. Usher's in several
critical new witnesses, including Angela Wagner's half brother, Chris Newcomb.
(02:45):
They share a mother, Rita Newcombe, but Chris is twenty
years Angela's junior. Technically he's Jake and George Wagner's uncle,
but they're so close in age they're more like brothers.
Newcomb wears a gray shirt, black sweatshirt and has a
thick huffed of hair on his chin. Here he is
being examined on the stand. Can you tell us the
(03:07):
dynamics between your sister Angela and her two sons, Jake
and George? How would you describe that relationship? On her part,
controlling is I'll get out? Okay? Tell me about that.
What do you mean by controlling as I'll get out?
Would she tell him to jump by jump? I think
(03:27):
that's plightest way I can put that. Did she also
try to exact control over you? I'll try to try
to several times, okay? And specifically, would she try to
exert control over you regarding your children or how you were?
She did a few times. So I told her certain things. Yeah,
(03:48):
I ain't gonna say exactly what I said to her,
but just respond to the question. Okay. So she attempted
to but she was not successful. It's W in that regard, Yeah, correct, okay,
And can you tell us w what her relationship was
like with Billy? Goat, give me a minute. Uh, dysfunctional
(04:14):
sounds alright? You take? And why do you say that? Well,
if you know Billy, you d pretty much know why
it was dysfunctional. Okay, And so so go ahead and
tell me about that. Tell me about your observations or
your experience with Billy. He's about it. Uselessness, that's on
the borehole. Okay, I'm sorry, man' I allowed to say that, Yes,
(04:39):
I'm sorry. And and why I why do you say that? Specifically?
Lazy didn't wanna do nothing, always running these mouths, always
scheming on some way or another, Kay, grinding his teeth
beyond recognition. That's a nupt in by crazy Chris Newcomb
(05:02):
was woven into the Wagner family fabric. He bought amphetamines
for Billy Wagner and guns for George. And specifically, did
you ever help George locate a forty caliber block. Yes,
tell me about that? What you would call from that?
He asked me to try to find him a forty
(05:24):
caliber block. He said it probably a hard one to find.
I ended up finding one. I had it, and I
wanting to say, live in the Hillsboro and I'm not
one hundred percent short on certain on that. Through a
Facebook mark place, I messaged in. Then I message George
told him what it was. Uh. He said, We'll try
to get it if you can. He said, if not,
don't worry about it. I tried to get it, and
(05:46):
I end up getting it, and we end up meeting
in the truck stop right down there by the peoples.
As we'll learn, a glock magazine was found among the
murder weapons that were discovered by investigators. It was hidden
in a concrete bucket the bottom of a pond at
the Wagner's Flying w farm. When Chris Nucom first learned
of the Wagner's possible involvement in the homicides and the
(06:08):
Wagners asked him not to cooperate with the BCI, he
was devastated. Was there ever a time that Jake or
George or Angela told you not to talk to BCI. Yes,
and who told you that Angela Jake? George, you became
aware that Jake put guilty in this case? Correct? Yep? Okay?
(06:36):
Prior to that point, had you more or less defended them? Yes?
I did? And can you tell us how you felt
at that time? Enraged? Tell me about that. If I'd
have had Jake in front of me at the time,
I'd probably beat him doing that ship of his life.
I would have believed a thousand times my family had
(06:57):
nothing whatsoever to do with this. And then it just
made me look like the biggest city of coming and
going whenever Jake came out in capacity to it. And
I just felt, I can't think of a right word.
I want to say a certain word, but I can't
think of what it is. Trying to think of the
word I'm looking for, betrayed. But Newcomb took pains to
(07:23):
paint George Wagner in a more favorable light than the
rest of his family. According to Chris, George was fun
and laid back. He loved whipping around on his ATV
until he was covered head stone mud. Jake, on the
other hand, was uptight and harascible about everything, particularly people.
Treading dirt onto his truck. Here's Stephanie and Jeff hearing
(07:45):
Chris Newcomb say the word betrayed. I mean, that's really
the word that probably sums it up best. Here, your
very best friend in all of the world, someone you
consider like a brother. You defend them to the death
again and again and again, and then you find out
that they were all lying to you. Yeah, And I
feel like Chris Newcomb's testimony really paints a good contrast
(08:06):
of the personality differences between Jake's controlling nature kind of
being similar to Angela in that way, and George being
so different from members of his family. He could seem
like a character witness for George Wagner because as we know,
you know, he considered him a brother and was shocked
and an almost disbelief that he could be involved with
(08:27):
these murders and that they would actually do something that
in many ways harmed his own mother, Rita Newcomb, who's
also Angela's mother. He said it here in the podcast
last season that he'll never forgive his half sister, Angela
Wagner for what she did to his mother. I mean,
even just being in the courtroom and seeing George for
(08:48):
the very first time after all of these years, knowing
what he's standing accused of, knowing that his testimony is
also a part of that trial that's going to frankly
be used against him. That's a hard line to walk. Yes,
if there's been a few people that we've talked to
over the years that have kind of had to grapple
with what they knew about the Wagner's versus what they're
(09:08):
accused of doing. And I think Chris Newcombe really encapsulates this,
and we hear in his testimony, I mean, I think
he really wavers on his feelings toward the family. In
the cross examination, defense attorney John Parker drew a stark
dividing line between the Wagner brothers. It's George and Jake.
Are they the same? Nope? Explain it if you could,
(09:29):
and day, night and day. Can you give me some
more details how George is different than Jake. Me and him,
we vibed a lot better because we both like about
the same things. Okay, we had a lot of the
same enters. Uh, Jake not so much. All right, It's
we was all like brothers. Yes, he was like the
(09:51):
brother that always wanted. Jake was like the brother wish
I never had. And if you needed something in the
middle of the night, could you call George absolute he'd
show up in the middle of the night, absolutely, no questions.
Ask Angie Kinneppa, however, was quick to diffuse any notion
that George was all that different from the rest of
the Wagner clan. And you indicated that Jake would basically
(10:14):
fall into line pretty quickly with Angela. Correct, but George
might push back a little more. He would push back, okay,
in the end, would you still do what his mother
told him to do most of the time? Yeah, okay,
So he'd argue, but in the end he would do
what you said. Yeah, okay. And again, the first time
they went to Alaska, was that as a family? All
(10:36):
four of them? Yes, okay? And when they went back
to Alaska again, it was all four of them as
a family, correct, all four of them plusure the kids,
you know, the two kids, right, okay? And during George's
adult life, have you ever known him not to live
with his mother and his brother? No one thing Jake
(10:57):
and George did see eye to I on was there
favorite movie and TV show? According to Chris Nukom, they
were Boondock Saints and The Walking Dead. And it was
both Jake and George who said that their favorite movie
was boon Dock Saints. Pretty sure, And can you tell
us generally what the theme of that movie is? Two
(11:20):
brothers and their idiot friend, uh kill a bunch of
mafia guys and it man and anybody had anything to
do with the mafia. And in one of this series,
does the father also join them? That's boon Dock Saints too. Yeah.
Can you tell us was there a time that you
saw both Jake and George with their hair dyed dark? Yes? Okay?
(11:46):
And can you tell him tell me how you remember that?
They just showed up at the house one day and
I told him it it looked stupid or dumb? And
was there any common made by either one of them
explaining why they had dyed their hair? Jake was laughing
(12:07):
and said, don't you think I looked like Darryl? And
I thought, not even close? And who is Darryl character
off The Walking Dead? Okay? And that character is played
by Norman Retis correct? Yes, And he also plays one
of the brothers in Boondock Saints. Correct, yes? And can
you remember when that was in relation to the homicides.
(12:29):
When you saw them with their hair died. I can't remember.
It was right before, right after, somewhere around in there. Okay,
we're going to take a break. We'll be back in
a moment. During her questioning, Kneppa showed a clip from
(12:52):
Boondock Saints to the jury. Law and Order crime reporter
Anjeannette Levy, who has been following the case in the
beginning and was in the courtroom, explains the boon Dog
Saint clip. We kind of knew a long time ago
from seeing some court records that that was somehow relevant
or the prosecution believed that was pertinent to the case
(13:13):
or had some something to do with the case. And
it's just like this clip of I guess a Mexican
man holding up to nineteen eleven twenty two calibers with
silencers on them and saying ding dong, mother efforts. So
there are two brothers in that movie who are twins
(13:35):
and they go out on this vigilante killing spree in
the name of religion. And Chris Newcom testified that this
was Jake and George's favorite movie. So we think that
the prosecution is going to say, hey, this is, you know,
something they liked, This is something that influenced them. Here again,
(14:01):
Stephanie and Jeff. These movie references, in the fact that
George and Jake both dye their hair black, has gotten
a lot of play throughout this trial. And on the
one hand, yeah, of course it's very interesting and strange
and scary. On the flip of that, does that really
count as major evidence. We've heard a lot over the
(14:23):
years about various criminals being influenced by the media, whether
it be a violent video game or a scary movie,
and I think this is a perfect example of the
prosecution really making a meal of that and whether or
not it actually was an influence. It's, like you said,
stuff very hard to prove in court, and there's a
(14:44):
million holes you could poke in it. Again, it does
make it interesting. You could see the movie. You can
see this playing out like a movie, but this is
real life. The stakes are so high. I had a
conversation with Jason Flomm, founding board member of The Innocence Project,
host of the hit podcast Wrongful Conviction, and producer of
(15:05):
the podcasts Bone Valley and the newly released War on Drugs.
I asked him first about his connection to the movie
Boondock Saints. I think I was working at Atlantic Records
at the time, but I don't remember which label it was,
to be fair, because you know, my day job is
and has been as a music executive. Now it seems
like a more well known for criminal justice reform work.
(15:26):
But I have been in the music business since I
was eighteen years old, and that's a lot of years anyway,
So I was working at a label and Boondock Saints
came to my attention. The singer Troy had written this
script that had become the object of a huge bidding
war in Hollywood. I learned that he had a band
(15:46):
by the same name as the movie and the script,
which was called the Boondock Saints. So naturally I was
curious because this seemed like such an almost too good
to be true story, bartender bidding war, you know, the
whole thing. So I don't remember how I first got
in touch with them, but somehow and ended up meeting
(16:08):
with the guys. I think I may have seen them
play and I was impressed and the music was good,
so I signed them to a record deal. Can you
talk a little bit about the cultural relevancy of the movie.
I mean, it was a phenomenon that's obviously still talked
about today. Yeah, the movie you know became this I
guess you could call it a cult classic. I don't
(16:31):
know how else to refer to it. I think in
terms of its impact relative to its commercial success, you
put it at the top of that sort of matrix
right where. It's been talked about and continues to be
talked about in shows like yours for the most random
of reasons. And it's such a crazy coincidence that I
have the connection to the Boondock scenes, and because I've
(16:51):
always been a, you know, a rock guy, I've always
liked rock and roll music, as I've signed rock and
roll music throughout my career. It's amazing that this movie
has resonated when how many tens of thousands of movies
have been made since then, and many of them are,
you know, have lots of guns and lots of shootings
and lots of violence and lots of everything that The
(17:11):
Bundak Saints has, But this one, for some reason, has
really stuck in this eitgeist. What are your thoughts about
the fact that the prosecution in a murder trial is
playing a clip of the movie specifically they play the
ding dong motherfucker portion of it. And also, you know
(17:34):
what they're saying is that the Wagner's the family that
specifically Jake, who admitted to murdering five of the eight murderers,
that he watched it right before to get psyched up
quote for the murders. I mean that is a sort
of dirty trick that's used, you know. Now, I guess
(17:57):
it's a hot topic because it's used in these trials
where they're actually almost trying hip hop artists on their lyrics. Right,
they're using those as like evidence when it's art. You know,
it's like, it's not it's not an affid David Like
David Bolways sang a song about being an astronaut, but
he wasn't an astronaut, right, nobody's confused about that. The
(18:18):
idea that these things can or should be used in
a court of law strikes me as absurd. And maybe
that's too kind of a word. You know, you look
back on cases like the West Memphis three, right, where
the idea that they liked heavy metal music was a
big they had no evidence against them. It's hard for
(18:39):
me to see how that's relevant. To me, it seems
whether it happened or not, just so besides the point
and the relevancy in a court of law seems insane
to me. I think it's a very cynical way of
prosecutors trying to manipulate juries into believing what they want
them to believe, and not in this case necessarily, but
(19:02):
in many cases often because they have no evidence against
the person, like the West Memphis three, but more recently,
you know, we did a podcast on my show, Wrongful Conviction.
We covered the case of Patty prew At. Maggie Feeling
hosted that episode, and Patty Prewitt was and is an
innocent woman in Missouri who's been in prison for thirty
(19:24):
six years, and the only evidence they really had against
her was the fact that she liked to read crime novels.
I mean, that's what people read. They read romance novels,
they read crime novels. It doesn't mean anything, it just
means that's what they like to read. So, you know,
the idea that they were able to weaponize the fact
that she enjoyed books by whether it's Scott Patterson or
(19:46):
Scott Turo or John Grisham, is so you know, it
would be laughable if it wasn't so sinister. And I
think there's a line. It's not the same, but there's
a line between these things. And I hope that people
that are listening to us now when they serve on jury,
will remember this and discount any sort of nonsense that's
thrown their way along these lines. Again, much has been
(20:10):
made in court about the fact that Jake and George
dyed their hair black, allegedly to look like Norman Ritis
not Saints. You know, do you think that should be
a topic of conversation in a murder trial? Or and
let's say they dyed their hair blonde to look like
the guy in Fast Times at Richmond High, right, I mean, like,
(20:32):
you know, does that mean that they didn't do it?
Because if one is true, then shouldn't the other be true?
I mean, what what does that have to do with anything?
It all comes back to the same thing, which is that,
you know, one of the reasons why I do this
work and why I think this platform is so important,
and the podcasting platform is so important, is because we
(20:53):
need to have a more educated and more skeptical pool
of jurors who will look at howctual evidence instead of
hyperbole in situation and other sorts of nonsense like I said,
that's thrown their way, and then make judgments on the facts.
And if I could encourage people that are listening, serve
(21:18):
on juries. Number one, don't throw out that jury doing
serve on juries. It's it's not just a responsibility, it
should be an honor. And second of all, when you do,
remember the standard is and must be beyond a reasonable doubt.
And the other phrase to remember is innocent until proven guilty,
(21:40):
not the other way around. Just because somebody's sitting in
a defendant's chair, and just because there's people in uniforms
or in suits and ties or in lab coats that
are saying, yep, you know Courtney did it because we
say so, And that's not that's not it. Unfortunately, it
(22:01):
seems like the situation has gotten it certainly doesn't feel
like it's getting better, but it almost feels like it's
just at a very low bar. What happens in our courtrooms,
we should expect that our elected prosecutors or judges or
appointed or whatever they may be, would adhere to a
(22:23):
standard that is, you know, the ideal that you know,
the justice with the scales and the blindfold, and that's
the standard. I hope I live long enough to see
it where we have a system that really does it,
at least does its best to get it right. Following
testimony about the Boondock Saints and potential relevancy of the
(22:44):
hair dye, there was also discussion of the profile picture
George Wagner began to use after the murders. It was
a depiction of a one eyed wolf, whether or not
George Wagner was aware of it. Wolves are native symbols
of loyalty and close family ties. And was there also
something that you saw on Facebook that looking back? Uh,
(23:07):
there was a profile picture on Facebook? And what was
that wolf? Missing and eye? And why did that? When
looking back? What significance did that have to you? Just
kind of ironic, I guess you could call it? And
why was it ironic because it was a wolf shot
(23:29):
in the face? And were you aware of one of
the victims being shot in the eyes? Okay? And whose
profile was that? Georgios I hope you know the questions.
At this time, Yonner, we're going to take a break.
We'll be back in a moment. Joseph Morgan has doubts
(23:57):
about whether Chris Newcomb's testimony bolstered the prosecution's case. You know,
you think, well, when they got back to their office,
prosecution look at one another and say, yeah, I don't
necessarily know if mister Newton is the best best witness
for us in this case, because you know, when you're
you know, you began to paint George per the scuy's
(24:18):
testimony as not the monster that perhaps prosecution warned him painted,
as I don't know that he necessarily helped the prosecution's case.
More on that next time. I continued my conversation with
Jason Flomm, specifically his thoughts on people who have been
wrongfully convicted. The only thing I'll add is that for
(24:41):
the audience, you have such an awesome audience, and you know,
for them, I'll say, if you don't think this can
happen to you, this can happen to you. And if
you don't believe me, listen to wrongful Conviction. You'll see
it's like these stories are just absolutely mind blow. By
the way, if I start with the Patti Pruman episode,
your your head will explode and you'll want to literally
jump on a turnpike and drive to Missouri and protest, like,
(25:04):
what is this woman doing in prison? It doesn't make
any freaking sense. And that's true of every episode that
we covered. I can sincerely say I love your shows.
They're beautifully done, and as a listener, I really appreciate
everything you do. We're all in this together, and you know,
I'm very proud of where we're at. And you know,
with Bone Valley being such a big hit, and I'm
(25:25):
sure a lot of the fans of Pike and Massacre
probably fans of Bone Valley as well, and now we
have our new show, The War on Drugs that just
brought today. Though very excited about this twenty twenty three,
we're going to We're to continue to influence hearts and minds.
And it's interesting because your show is sort of the
almost like a counterpoint. But at the same time, even
though it seems overwhelmingly likely that they got the right
(25:46):
people here in your show, it's still an incredible expose
of how busted up the system is in Ohio and elsewhere.
So I'm really proud of the work that you guys do.
Thank you so much, Jason, and really for more information
on the case and relevant photos, follow us on Instagram
at Kati Underscore Studios. The piked In Maskers produced by
(26:10):
Stephanie Lydecker, Jeff Shane, Alan Wieter, Andrew Arnow, Gabriel Castillo
and me Courtney Armstrong. Editing and sound designed by Jeff
Ti Music by Jared Aston. The Pikedon Masker is a
production of iHeart Radio and Katy Studios. For more podcasts
from iHeart Radio, visit the iHeart Radio app, Apple Podcasts,
(26:32):
or wherever you listen to your favorite shows. Please welcome
Markite County Domed Festival. Queen Lord, I just thank you
for bringing us all together as a community. Okay, I'm
all sad all over the house. Who could have killed
(26:55):
eight family members in one by I lost my best
friends and I will never be the same because of
that day. Four crime scenes, no DNA, no witnesses. The
killer left those children laying in their mother's blood. The
word that comes to mind is overkilled. Who was the
(27:16):
master mind? I'm having you is a crimer. I'm not
fitting in prison. One thing I learned. The smaller the town,
the bigger the sacreds. Be sure to watch our upcoming documentary,
The Pike County Murders, a Family Massacre, premiering on NBC
Universal's Oxygen Network and also streaming on Peacock this Thanksgiving
(27:41):
Day weekend November twenty fourth and November twenty fifth. Please
check your local listings and our hearts are with the
Rodents and the Gilly families.
Continuing coverage. Now more family members associated with the Wagners
take the witness stand against George Wagner the fourth Can
you tell us what your relationship was like with the Angela?
I did not like her? And why was that she
was so judgmental? She would judge people when she had
more skeletons in her closet than anybody. Now, during cross examination,
(00:26):
Chris Newcomb told defense attorney John Parker that George Wagner
is like the brother he always wanted. He had far
less kind things to say about Jake. If I'd have
had Jake in front of me at the time, I'd
probably beat him, do an ens of his life. Why
something like that should have never been done? Ever? That
is a monstrous act in my opinion. Even Shakespeare compared
(00:50):
the trial to a grant stage that people kind of
present on. The only difference is is you know at
the end of play you're going to go home. But
with this born to death row, this is the Pike
Did Massacre Return to Pike County Season four, episode fifteen,
(01:16):
Just like the movies, I'm Courtney Armstrong, a television producer
at KAT Studios with Stephanie Leidecker and Jeff Shane. The
murder trial of George Wagner the Fourth, taking place in
the Little Red Courthouse in Waverley, Ohio, continues. A fall
chill is beginning to grip the small town, with overcast
guys and temperatures in the low fifties. There's a promise
(01:41):
of a much more abiding winter ahead. In the biggest
criminal proceeding in Ohio's history, Special Prosecutor Angie Kineppa is
seeking justice for the execution style murders of eight members
of the Rodin, Gilly, and Manly families in twenty sixteen.
It's been a profoundly emotional trial well, as the Rodent
family members and friends have been forced to relive the
(02:03):
earth shattering murders that left their family in ruins, murders
that George Wagner the Fourth's defense team claims he had
nothing to do with. George Wagner has pled not guilty
to all charges, as has his father, Billy Wagner, whose
child is upcoming. George's brother Jake, and his mother Angela
(02:24):
have already pled guilty. While it's true that there's been
little hard evidence tying George Wagner to the actual crime scenes,
prosecutor Kneppa has mounted a strong argument that the Wagners
did everything as in inexetorable Unit Today. Usher's in several
critical new witnesses, including Angela Wagner's half brother, Chris Newcomb.
(02:45):
They share a mother, Rita Newcombe, but Chris is twenty
years Angela's junior. Technically he's Jake and George Wagner's uncle,
but they're so close in age they're more like brothers.
Newcomb wears a gray shirt, black sweatshirt and has a
thick huffed of hair on his chin. Here he is
being examined on the stand. Can you tell us the
(03:07):
dynamics between your sister Angela and her two sons, Jake
and George? How would you describe that relationship? On her part,
controlling is I'll get out? Okay? Tell me about that.
What do you mean by controlling as I'll get out?
Would she tell him to jump by jump? I think
(03:27):
that's plightest way I can put that. Did she also
try to exact control over you? I'll try to try
to several times, okay? And specifically, would she try to
exert control over you regarding your children or how you were?
She did a few times. So I told her certain things. Yeah,
(03:48):
I ain't gonna say exactly what I said to her,
but just respond to the question. Okay. So she attempted
to but she was not successful. It's W in that regard, Yeah, correct, okay,
And can you tell us w what her relationship was
like with Billy? Goat, give me a minute. Uh, dysfunctional
(04:14):
sounds alright? You take? And why do you say that? Well,
if you know Billy, you d pretty much know why
it was dysfunctional. Okay, And so so go ahead and
tell me about that. Tell me about your observations or
your experience with Billy. He's about it. Uselessness, that's on
the borehole. Okay, I'm sorry, man' I allowed to say that, Yes,
(04:39):
I'm sorry. And and why I why do you say that? Specifically?
Lazy didn't wanna do nothing, always running these mouths, always
scheming on some way or another, Kay, grinding his teeth
beyond recognition. That's a nupt in by crazy Chris Newcomb
(05:02):
was woven into the Wagner family fabric. He bought amphetamines
for Billy Wagner and guns for George. And specifically, did
you ever help George locate a forty caliber block. Yes,
tell me about that? What you would call from that?
He asked me to try to find him a forty
(05:24):
caliber block. He said it probably a hard one to find.
I ended up finding one. I had it, and I
wanting to say, live in the Hillsboro and I'm not
one hundred percent short on certain on that. Through a
Facebook mark place, I messaged in. Then I message George
told him what it was. Uh. He said, We'll try
to get it if you can. He said, if not,
don't worry about it. I tried to get it, and
(05:46):
I end up getting it, and we end up meeting
in the truck stop right down there by the peoples.
As we'll learn, a glock magazine was found among the
murder weapons that were discovered by investigators. It was hidden
in a concrete bucket the bottom of a pond at
the Wagner's Flying w farm. When Chris Nucom first learned
of the Wagner's possible involvement in the homicides and the
(06:08):
Wagners asked him not to cooperate with the BCI, he
was devastated. Was there ever a time that Jake or
George or Angela told you not to talk to BCI. Yes,
and who told you that Angela Jake? George, you became
aware that Jake put guilty in this case? Correct? Yep? Okay?
(06:36):
Prior to that point, had you more or less defended them? Yes?
I did? And can you tell us how you felt
at that time? Enraged? Tell me about that. If I'd
have had Jake in front of me at the time,
I'd probably beat him doing that ship of his life.
I would have believed a thousand times my family had
(06:57):
nothing whatsoever to do with this. And then it just
made me look like the biggest city of coming and
going whenever Jake came out in capacity to it. And
I just felt, I can't think of a right word.
I want to say a certain word, but I can't
think of what it is. Trying to think of the
word I'm looking for, betrayed. But Newcomb took pains to
(07:23):
paint George Wagner in a more favorable light than the
rest of his family. According to Chris, George was fun
and laid back. He loved whipping around on his ATV
until he was covered head stone mud. Jake, on the
other hand, was uptight and harascible about everything, particularly people.
Treading dirt onto his truck. Here's Stephanie and Jeff hearing
(07:45):
Chris Newcomb say the word betrayed. I mean, that's really
the word that probably sums it up best. Here, your
very best friend in all of the world, someone you
consider like a brother. You defend them to the death
again and again and again, and then you find out
that they were all lying to you. Yeah, And I
feel like Chris Newcomb's testimony really paints a good contrast
(08:06):
of the personality differences between Jake's controlling nature kind of
being similar to Angela in that way, and George being
so different from members of his family. He could seem
like a character witness for George Wagner because as we know,
you know, he considered him a brother and was shocked
and an almost disbelief that he could be involved with
(08:27):
these murders and that they would actually do something that
in many ways harmed his own mother, Rita Newcomb, who's
also Angela's mother. He said it here in the podcast
last season that he'll never forgive his half sister, Angela
Wagner for what she did to his mother. I mean,
even just being in the courtroom and seeing George for
(08:48):
the very first time after all of these years, knowing
what he's standing accused of, knowing that his testimony is
also a part of that trial that's going to frankly
be used against him. That's a hard line to walk. Yes,
if there's been a few people that we've talked to
over the years that have kind of had to grapple
with what they knew about the Wagner's versus what they're
(09:08):
accused of doing. And I think Chris Newcombe really encapsulates this,
and we hear in his testimony, I mean, I think
he really wavers on his feelings toward the family. In
the cross examination, defense attorney John Parker drew a stark
dividing line between the Wagner brothers. It's George and Jake.
Are they the same? Nope? Explain it if you could,
(09:29):
and day, night and day. Can you give me some
more details how George is different than Jake. Me and him,
we vibed a lot better because we both like about
the same things. Okay, we had a lot of the
same enters. Uh, Jake not so much. All right, It's
we was all like brothers. Yes, he was like the
(09:51):
brother that always wanted. Jake was like the brother wish
I never had. And if you needed something in the
middle of the night, could you call George absolute he'd
show up in the middle of the night, absolutely, no questions.
Ask Angie Kinneppa, however, was quick to diffuse any notion
that George was all that different from the rest of
the Wagner clan. And you indicated that Jake would basically
(10:14):
fall into line pretty quickly with Angela. Correct, but George
might push back a little more. He would push back, okay,
in the end, would you still do what his mother
told him to do most of the time? Yeah, okay,
So he'd argue, but in the end he would do
what you said. Yeah, okay. And again, the first time
they went to Alaska, was that as a family? All
(10:36):
four of them? Yes, okay? And when they went back
to Alaska again, it was all four of them as
a family, correct, all four of them plusure the kids,
you know, the two kids, right, okay? And during George's
adult life, have you ever known him not to live
with his mother and his brother? No one thing Jake
(10:57):
and George did see eye to I on was there
favorite movie and TV show? According to Chris Nukom, they
were Boondock Saints and The Walking Dead. And it was
both Jake and George who said that their favorite movie
was boon Dock Saints. Pretty sure, And can you tell
us generally what the theme of that movie is? Two
(11:20):
brothers and their idiot friend, uh kill a bunch of
mafia guys and it man and anybody had anything to
do with the mafia. And in one of this series,
does the father also join them? That's boon Dock Saints too. Yeah.
Can you tell us was there a time that you
saw both Jake and George with their hair dyed dark? Yes? Okay?
(11:46):
And can you tell him tell me how you remember that?
They just showed up at the house one day and
I told him it it looked stupid or dumb? And
was there any common made by either one of them
explaining why they had dyed their hair? Jake was laughing
(12:07):
and said, don't you think I looked like Darryl? And
I thought, not even close? And who is Darryl character
off The Walking Dead? Okay? And that character is played
by Norman Retis correct? Yes, And he also plays one
of the brothers in Boondock Saints. Correct, yes? And can
you remember when that was in relation to the homicides.
(12:29):
When you saw them with their hair died. I can't remember.
It was right before, right after, somewhere around in there. Okay,
we're going to take a break. We'll be back in
a moment. During her questioning, Kneppa showed a clip from
(12:52):
Boondock Saints to the jury. Law and Order crime reporter
Anjeannette Levy, who has been following the case in the
beginning and was in the courtroom, explains the boon Dog
Saint clip. We kind of knew a long time ago
from seeing some court records that that was somehow relevant
or the prosecution believed that was pertinent to the case
(13:13):
or had some something to do with the case. And
it's just like this clip of I guess a Mexican
man holding up to nineteen eleven twenty two calibers with
silencers on them and saying ding dong, mother efforts. So
there are two brothers in that movie who are twins
(13:35):
and they go out on this vigilante killing spree in
the name of religion. And Chris Newcom testified that this
was Jake and George's favorite movie. So we think that
the prosecution is going to say, hey, this is, you know,
something they liked, This is something that influenced them. Here again,
(14:01):
Stephanie and Jeff. These movie references, in the fact that
George and Jake both dye their hair black, has gotten
a lot of play throughout this trial. And on the
one hand, yeah, of course it's very interesting and strange
and scary. On the flip of that, does that really
count as major evidence. We've heard a lot over the
(14:23):
years about various criminals being influenced by the media, whether
it be a violent video game or a scary movie,
and I think this is a perfect example of the
prosecution really making a meal of that and whether or
not it actually was an influence. It's, like you said,
stuff very hard to prove in court, and there's a
(14:44):
million holes you could poke in it. Again, it does
make it interesting. You could see the movie. You can
see this playing out like a movie, but this is
real life. The stakes are so high. I had a
conversation with Jason Flomm, founding board member of The Innocence Project,
host of the hit podcast Wrongful Conviction, and producer of
(15:05):
the podcasts Bone Valley and the newly released War on Drugs.
I asked him first about his connection to the movie
Boondock Saints. I think I was working at Atlantic Records
at the time, but I don't remember which label it was,
to be fair, because you know, my day job is
and has been as a music executive. Now it seems
like a more well known for criminal justice reform work.
(15:26):
But I have been in the music business since I
was eighteen years old, and that's a lot of years anyway,
So I was working at a label and Boondock Saints
came to my attention. The singer Troy had written this
script that had become the object of a huge bidding
war in Hollywood. I learned that he had a band
(15:46):
by the same name as the movie and the script,
which was called the Boondock Saints. So naturally I was
curious because this seemed like such an almost too good
to be true story, bartender bidding war, you know, the
whole thing. So I don't remember how I first got
in touch with them, but somehow and ended up meeting
(16:08):
with the guys. I think I may have seen them
play and I was impressed and the music was good,
so I signed them to a record deal. Can you
talk a little bit about the cultural relevancy of the movie.
I mean, it was a phenomenon that's obviously still talked
about today. Yeah, the movie you know became this I
guess you could call it a cult classic. I don't
(16:31):
know how else to refer to it. I think in
terms of its impact relative to its commercial success, you
put it at the top of that sort of matrix
right where. It's been talked about and continues to be
talked about in shows like yours for the most random
of reasons. And it's such a crazy coincidence that I
have the connection to the Boondock scenes, and because I've
(16:51):
always been a, you know, a rock guy, I've always
liked rock and roll music, as I've signed rock and
roll music throughout my career. It's amazing that this movie
has resonated when how many tens of thousands of movies
have been made since then, and many of them are,
you know, have lots of guns and lots of shootings
and lots of violence and lots of everything that The
(17:11):
Bundak Saints has, But this one, for some reason, has
really stuck in this eitgeist. What are your thoughts about
the fact that the prosecution in a murder trial is
playing a clip of the movie specifically they play the
ding dong motherfucker portion of it. And also, you know
(17:34):
what they're saying is that the Wagner's the family that
specifically Jake, who admitted to murdering five of the eight murderers,
that he watched it right before to get psyched up
quote for the murders. I mean that is a sort
of dirty trick that's used, you know. Now, I guess
(17:57):
it's a hot topic because it's used in these trials
where they're actually almost trying hip hop artists on their lyrics. Right,
they're using those as like evidence when it's art. You know,
it's like, it's not it's not an affid David Like
David Bolways sang a song about being an astronaut, but
he wasn't an astronaut, right, nobody's confused about that. The
(18:18):
idea that these things can or should be used in
a court of law strikes me as absurd. And maybe
that's too kind of a word. You know, you look
back on cases like the West Memphis three, right, where
the idea that they liked heavy metal music was a
big they had no evidence against them. It's hard for
(18:39):
me to see how that's relevant. To me, it seems
whether it happened or not, just so besides the point
and the relevancy in a court of law seems insane
to me. I think it's a very cynical way of
prosecutors trying to manipulate juries into believing what they want
them to believe, and not in this case necessarily, but
(19:02):
in many cases often because they have no evidence against
the person, like the West Memphis three, but more recently,
you know, we did a podcast on my show, Wrongful Conviction.
We covered the case of Patty prew At. Maggie Feeling
hosted that episode, and Patty Prewitt was and is an
innocent woman in Missouri who's been in prison for thirty
(19:24):
six years, and the only evidence they really had against
her was the fact that she liked to read crime novels.
I mean, that's what people read. They read romance novels,
they read crime novels. It doesn't mean anything, it just
means that's what they like to read. So, you know,
the idea that they were able to weaponize the fact
that she enjoyed books by whether it's Scott Patterson or
(19:46):
Scott Turo or John Grisham, is so you know, it
would be laughable if it wasn't so sinister. And I
think there's a line. It's not the same, but there's
a line between these things. And I hope that people
that are listening to us now when they serve on jury,
will remember this and discount any sort of nonsense that's
thrown their way along these lines. Again, much has been
(20:10):
made in court about the fact that Jake and George
dyed their hair black, allegedly to look like Norman Ritis
not Saints. You know, do you think that should be
a topic of conversation in a murder trial? Or and
let's say they dyed their hair blonde to look like
the guy in Fast Times at Richmond High, right, I mean, like,
(20:32):
you know, does that mean that they didn't do it?
Because if one is true, then shouldn't the other be true?
I mean, what what does that have to do with anything?
It all comes back to the same thing, which is that,
you know, one of the reasons why I do this
work and why I think this platform is so important,
and the podcasting platform is so important, is because we
(20:53):
need to have a more educated and more skeptical pool
of jurors who will look at howctual evidence instead of
hyperbole in situation and other sorts of nonsense like I said,
that's thrown their way, and then make judgments on the facts.
And if I could encourage people that are listening, serve
(21:18):
on juries. Number one, don't throw out that jury doing
serve on juries. It's it's not just a responsibility, it
should be an honor. And second of all, when you do,
remember the standard is and must be beyond a reasonable doubt.
And the other phrase to remember is innocent until proven guilty,
(21:40):
not the other way around. Just because somebody's sitting in
a defendant's chair, and just because there's people in uniforms
or in suits and ties or in lab coats that
are saying, yep, you know Courtney did it because we
say so, And that's not that's not it. Unfortunately, it
(22:01):
seems like the situation has gotten it certainly doesn't feel
like it's getting better, but it almost feels like it's
just at a very low bar. What happens in our courtrooms,
we should expect that our elected prosecutors or judges or
appointed or whatever they may be, would adhere to a
(22:23):
standard that is, you know, the ideal that you know,
the justice with the scales and the blindfold, and that's
the standard. I hope I live long enough to see
it where we have a system that really does it,
at least does its best to get it right. Following
testimony about the Boondock Saints and potential relevancy of the
(22:44):
hair dye, there was also discussion of the profile picture
George Wagner began to use after the murders. It was
a depiction of a one eyed wolf, whether or not
George Wagner was aware of it. Wolves are native symbols
of loyalty and close family ties. And was there also
something that you saw on Facebook that looking back? Uh,
(23:07):
there was a profile picture on Facebook? And what was
that wolf? Missing and eye? And why did that? When
looking back? What significance did that have to you? Just
kind of ironic, I guess you could call it? And
why was it ironic because it was a wolf shot
(23:29):
in the face? And were you aware of one of
the victims being shot in the eyes? Okay? And whose
profile was that? Georgios I hope you know the questions.
At this time, Yonner, we're going to take a break.
We'll be back in a moment. Joseph Morgan has doubts
(23:57):
about whether Chris Newcomb's testimony bolstered the prosecution's case. You know,
you think, well, when they got back to their office,
prosecution look at one another and say, yeah, I don't
necessarily know if mister Newton is the best best witness
for us in this case, because you know, when you're
you know, you began to paint George per the scuy's
(24:18):
testimony as not the monster that perhaps prosecution warned him painted,
as I don't know that he necessarily helped the prosecution's case.
More on that next time. I continued my conversation with
Jason Flomm, specifically his thoughts on people who have been
wrongfully convicted. The only thing I'll add is that for
(24:41):
the audience, you have such an awesome audience, and you know,
for them, I'll say, if you don't think this can
happen to you, this can happen to you. And if
you don't believe me, listen to wrongful Conviction. You'll see
it's like these stories are just absolutely mind blow. By
the way, if I start with the Patti Pruman episode,
your your head will explode and you'll want to literally
jump on a turnpike and drive to Missouri and protest, like,
(25:04):
what is this woman doing in prison? It doesn't make
any freaking sense. And that's true of every episode that
we covered. I can sincerely say I love your shows.
They're beautifully done, and as a listener, I really appreciate
everything you do. We're all in this together, and you know,
I'm very proud of where we're at. And you know,
with Bone Valley being such a big hit, and I'm
(25:25):
sure a lot of the fans of Pike and Massacre
probably fans of Bone Valley as well, and now we
have our new show, The War on Drugs that just
brought today. Though very excited about this twenty twenty three,
we're going to We're to continue to influence hearts and minds.
And it's interesting because your show is sort of the
almost like a counterpoint. But at the same time, even
though it seems overwhelmingly likely that they got the right
(25:46):
people here in your show, it's still an incredible expose
of how busted up the system is in Ohio and elsewhere.
So I'm really proud of the work that you guys do.
Thank you so much, Jason, and really for more information
on the case and relevant photos, follow us on Instagram
at Kati Underscore Studios. The piked In Maskers produced by
(26:10):
Stephanie Lydecker, Jeff Shane, Alan Wieter, Andrew Arnow, Gabriel Castillo
and me Courtney Armstrong. Editing and sound designed by Jeff
Ti Music by Jared Aston. The Pikedon Masker is a
production of iHeart Radio and Katy Studios. For more podcasts
from iHeart Radio, visit the iHeart Radio app, Apple Podcasts,
(26:32):
or wherever you listen to your favorite shows. Please welcome
Markite County Domed Festival. Queen Lord, I just thank you
for bringing us all together as a community. Okay, I'm
all sad all over the house. Who could have killed
(26:55):
eight family members in one by I lost my best
friends and I will never be the same because of
that day. Four crime scenes, no DNA, no witnesses. The
killer left those children laying in their mother's blood. The
word that comes to mind is overkilled. Who was the
(27:16):
master mind? I'm having you is a crimer. I'm not
fitting in prison. One thing I learned. The smaller the town,
the bigger the sacreds. Be sure to watch our upcoming documentary,
The Pike County Murders, a Family Massacre, premiering on NBC
Universal's Oxygen Network and also streaming on Peacock this Thanksgiving
(27:41):
Day weekend November twenty fourth and November twenty fifth. Please
check your local listings and our hearts are with the
Rodents and the Gilly families.
Hosts And Creators
Stephanie Lydecker
Courtney Armstrong
Jeff Shane
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