September 17, 2025 • 25 mins
Hundreds of newly released police files reveal chilling details about Bryan Kohberger’s life before the murders — accounts of awkward interactions, unsettling classroom behavior, and strained relationships. Behavioral experts weigh in on the patterns that emerged, what they may reveal about his mindset, and how they connect to the events that followed.
Check us out online:
www.tiktok.com/@officialktstudios
See omnystudio.com/listener for privacy information.
Mark as Played
Transcript
Episode Transcript
Available transcripts are automatically generated. Complete accuracy is not guaranteed.
Speaker 1 (00:03):
This guy was like American psycho.
Speaker 2 (00:06):
I can do something even more important, something larger. I
can become a serial killer and get away with it.
Speaker 3 (00:14):
I have never seen from any case I've covered someone's
so completely devoid of anything internal.
Speaker 1 (00:27):
This is the Idaho Massacre, a production of KAT Studios
and iHeartRadio, Season three, Episode five, Strange Behavior. I'm Courtney Armstrong,
a producer at KAT Studios, with Stephanie Leideger and Gabriel Castillo.
(00:47):
Over one hundred documents have been released by the Moscow
Police Department and another five hundred and fifty by the
Idaho State Police. Together, they don't just fill in the blanks,
reveal an even clearer and at times far more troubling
picture of this case. Crime analysts Body move In takes
(01:10):
us deep inside the files that focus specifically on Brian
Coberger's behavior, what his colleagues noticed, the patterns that emerged,
and the red flags that may have been hiding in
plain sight. Then behavioral analyst Robin Drake helps us connect
the dots, breaking down what these documents reveal about Coburger's mindset,
(01:33):
his decision making, and the strange behaviors that led up
to the murders. You'll hear Robin's theory on motive why
he thinks this seemingly promising PhD student took such a
dark turn. But first, let's start with Body move In
and Stephanie Leidecker as they guide us through some of
(01:53):
the most revealing files.
Speaker 4 (01:55):
Yet, all of these findings and files coming out publicly,
and we can't get through them fast enough. We're eating
them up as prd as possible. But it shows a
lot into his brain space while getting his PhD.
Speaker 5 (02:10):
He's described by many as creepy, socially awkward, and domineering.
He frequently stared intensely at people. One woman counted nine
times during a class she saw him staring at her intensely,
like creepy, scary.
Speaker 1 (02:27):
Like without a blink.
Speaker 4 (02:28):
You know, times you might just be gazing in a
direction and you happen to be looking at a person
and it's so embarrassing. You're like, I swear I'm not
overly staring. But in this case, this was a repeat pattern,
and he wouldn't really blink. He would just be so
intensely staring.
Speaker 5 (02:44):
He exhibited this macho or puffed up demeanor, and he
always wanted to dominate every conversation he had. So you
if you and I were talking about the new Barbie
Doll okay that we all got we love this Barbie
Doll enter coburger, he would turn the conversation it is
something he's interested, and then dominate that conversation.
Speaker 1 (03:04):
Wow.
Speaker 5 (03:05):
In one report, there was a guy and he said
that Brian wasn't really his friend, but he was more
than an acquaintance, so he's kind of in the in between.
And he got a ride from Brian Coberger and they
ended up being in his car for hours in the
parking lot, just talking, and Brian was venting to him,
saying that I don't you know, I don't have a
lot of guys to talk to, And then he said
(03:27):
he could walk into a bar and have any woman
he wanted.
Speaker 4 (03:30):
Yeah, I mean, give me a break. This guy, he
couldn't get a girl.
Speaker 5 (03:34):
Persistent complaints from women about his behavior. He made sexist
and belittally remarks. He denied man's plaining even exists. This
girl was and then the class was telling her something
about eyewitnesses get things wrong, and they were talking about
that and he basically told her she was wrong and
(03:55):
explained why she was wrong, which is fine, but apparently
he was man's plaining and the argument got so heated
that she left the classroom crying and heated and like
left everything behind. Wow he told a disabled gay student
he would only accept a physically perfect partner and would
she even consider procreating because of her disability.
Speaker 4 (04:18):
Meaning because she had a disability, he thought maybe she shouldn't.
Like That's what he was implying, is that you're not
perfect enough to procreate.
Speaker 6 (04:27):
Right.
Speaker 5 (04:27):
He said in some of these classes that he was
in that he believed in like traditional roles, and he
believed in like traditional marriage. You know, he was homophobic.
He made homophobic comments. He had hostility towards women. He
was dismissive of all the female professors authority. He questioned
one's ability to grade because she was too foreign. He
(04:48):
was systematically late to classes taught by women. He was
never late to the male professor classes. There was even
a male professor who started letting his class out early
so that Brian could make it to his colleague's female class,
and Brian was still late to her class. Wow was
intentionally disruptive. He would leave class in the middle of
(05:11):
a woman speaking one of his professors and go get coffee.
Speaker 1 (05:14):
Are you kidding me? He was dismissive.
Speaker 5 (05:16):
It was so bad that people in classes that were
with Coburger started keeping a tally how many times he
was late to female professors classes versus the male professors.
Female grad students often felt uncomfortable, harassed, or trapped. He
would block doorways, preventing them from leaving offices, and he
(05:37):
would like corner them, and the word was spatially trap
people in rooms and conversations, and then when you would
try to get away from him, he would follow you
and continue the conversation, sometimes following people all the way
to their car. And it got so bad. He allegedly
stalked a staff member, asked her out on a date,
and followed her to a car. She filed a civil
(05:59):
rights complaint with the university about this because he wouldn't
leave her alone. A cafe worker said that he knew
her name and scheduled despite never being told, and she
suspects that he tracked her for weeks in order to
figure that out. In order to figure that out right,
witness has.
Speaker 4 (06:16):
Been the guy that's like sitting outside the restaurant staring
through the window from the outside, marking her shifts.
Speaker 2 (06:23):
Think about that.
Speaker 1 (06:23):
How scary that is.
Speaker 5 (06:25):
Very Witnesses reported him showing up at women's homes or
being linked to suspicious incidents. Knocks on the windows, somebody
on a porch, somebody's underwear was stolen. This one lady,
she's a student and she was in the court. She
invited everybody to her apartment for like some kind of orientation,
(06:46):
including Brian Coburger. Then rumor started circulating that she's on
this drug and she has this disease and da da
dada whatever, and it comes from Brian Coburger. She finds out, well,
he went through her medicine cabinet when he was in
her bathroom at her house. This guy. In fact, one
of the professors said that she works with predators and
she recognizes them when she sees them, and he's definitely
(07:07):
going to be somebody that they hear about. Another one
said that he was probably going to be a future rapist.
And you know, some faculty even warned students not to
be alone with him. You know, I'm a little taken
aback by how obvious his like absolute disdain and disrespect
for women were. What were they thinking after the murders,
like did they question like, Oh my god, I wonder
(07:29):
if it could be him, Like I wonder like internally,
did any of them kind of go o, I don't know.
Here you are, you're getting your PhD. You're a student,
you know.
Speaker 4 (07:40):
And also he has younger people underneath him like their
prey to him. At this point, this guy was like
American psycho.
Speaker 1 (07:52):
We brought in Robin Drake, a retired FBI special agent
and former head of the bureau's Counterintelligence Behavioral and Aalysis program.
He's reviewed these documents detailing Brian Coberger's unsettling behavior and
shares his insight into why Coburger acted the way he did.
He's joined by our producer Alison Bankston.
Speaker 6 (08:15):
To start off, I just I'd love for you to
tell us a little bit about you. What do you
specialize in? What's your background?
Speaker 3 (08:23):
Yeah, so, Naval Academy graduate, Marine Corps officer from there.
I came in the FBI in nineteen ninety seven and
I was a counterintelligence agent. My job was recruiting spies
and I did it my entire career. I got on
our behavioral team for that as a team member, and
then I became the chief of that team, I taught
at Quantico all these advanced techniques for interpersonal relationships and
(08:44):
communication basically, and what that all boils down to is
I had with the FBI before I retired, over twenty
two years of understanding why humans do what they are
going to do. If you're going to recruit a spy,
you have to understand the world through their optic and
lens if they're going to have a relationship with you
and trust you with their life and betray their country.
So with that skill set, when I retired in twenty eighteen,
(09:06):
and even before that, I started getting called for because
everyone sees behavior in my background because chief of the
Beable House program, they and FBI behavior they know they
want me to give my thoughts and opinions on why
bad guys do bad things. I always got to covey
at everything. Not a licensed clinical physician, clinician or anything
like that. This is pure my background from my experiences.
Speaker 6 (09:29):
So these documents, these complaints from his colleagues at WSU,
what do you glean from them? What do they say
about him?
Speaker 3 (09:35):
So what we start seeing with him is exactly how
empty he is. There is nothing there. And what I
mean by that is, there are behaviors that are extremely psychopathic.
And when I worked and believe or not, even in
the world of counter intelligence, you dealt with psychopaths because
if someone's committee an espionage, generally espionage is not the
(09:56):
only thing going sideways in that person's life. And so
that high level of psychopay I saw it multiple times
both in my bureau career and obviously afterwards consulting on
these cases. And at the core of psychopathy, the highest
level of psychopathy, this is pure predator with empty shell
They're really only reacting to biological impulses and genetics, that
is it. And so I have never seen from any
(10:17):
case I've covered, someone so completely devoid of anything internal.
That's Coburger. Every interaction you see with him is the
reason why he creeps people out, because when we see creepy,
what it is is we're picking up as human beings
inconsistencies and behavior inconsistencies and the words that are being
setting the emotions that someone has. This I mean, we're
(10:37):
extremely attuned to our environment as a biological organism on
his planet's evolved for hundreds of thousands of years, and
so when we feel unsafe that's that creepy feeling and
unsafe means there's incongruence in the environment or the individual.
Coburger is the epitome of consistently incongruent because he has
no emotion and he has no idea how to act.
(10:58):
His ability to socialize and how have healthy regular conversations
and knowing boundaries with people that you don't have a
stronger relationship with obviously is again incapable of a self
regulation of knowing what's appropriate and inappropriate.
Speaker 6 (11:11):
What do you make if his treatment of women belitteral
in them, never listening to them, just being beyond this
respectful abhorrent? What does this say about him? And could
this be a motivation?
Speaker 3 (11:21):
Some people have made a lot about in him being
an in cell and things like that. I just see
him as really emotionally and sexually frustrated. I think to
hit that level of wanting to join, because think about it.
In cells are kind of you know, from what I've
seen on it, it's a group and it's a cult
(11:42):
mentality of these people that a group together. Coburg is
not a joiner. That's why I didn't really I don't
put him in the sense of his in cell because
it's kind of a group, a group mentality that kind
of helps each other, you know, rage against you know, girls,
and kind of feel better about who they are by
joining together and doing that. He's not a joiner, so
(12:04):
it doesn't really strike me, but frustrated with his inability
because he sucks at human interaction.
Speaker 6 (12:10):
Interesting, No, I keep kind of going back to the
fact that he'd just stare at people, and he'd also
physically block them in corners, as if he wasn't allowing
that person to leave the conversation. There is something so
odd to me about blocking someone in a corner. It's
scary and awkward.
Speaker 3 (12:26):
If it's a pattern. Because even in the classroom they
talk about him as a TA on the first day
standing awkwardly in front of the class, So I think
part of it is that control aspect of it. I
think the majority of it, though, is his complete unaware
self serving himself of having no clue about what's appropriate inappropriate.
I think he's just so stupid on his emotional intelligence
(12:47):
that he has no clue about what he's doing. I
think he just thinks he's the most important person. Everyone
wants to listen to him because he's so smart, so
everyone must want to listen to me. So I'm just
going to stand here awkwardly. But to him, he's not
being awkward. To him, he's just being who he is.
He just completely oblivious to his impact on others. He
has zero ability to read a room. He has zero
ability to read other people. It is profound, is what
(13:08):
it is.
Speaker 6 (13:09):
Yeah, absolutely, you know in one of these accounts, and
it just goes along with everything you're saying. You know,
he was always thinking he's the smartest person in the room.
And in one of these documents it says that he
was also always bragging about knowing some high profile professor,
which I have to imagine is doctor Kathin Ramslin from
the Sales University. You know, she taught him and he
looked up to her. But yeah, he would brag about
(13:31):
knowing this professor.
Speaker 3 (13:33):
Just a name dropper. So let's go back to the
Ramslan thing because I think it's really relevant because again
it gives us a glimpse on his motivations in life.
So Howard Bloom, great author, did a lot of great work.
His book When Night Comes Falling was a fantastic study,
and he is numerous times said that he thinks part
of Coburger's motivation was to impress Ramslin in some way.
(13:57):
And I always taken what are the people observe when
they've done a lot of deep dives on this? And
I think Howard was on to something.
Speaker 1 (14:07):
Let's stop here for a break. We'll be back in
a moment. Author and investigative journalist Howard Blum has floated
a compelling theory that Brian Coberger may have been driven
by a desire to impress his renowned professor at the
(14:28):
Sales University. His professor was doctor Catherine Ramsland. She's a
criminologist well known for her connections to serial killer studies.
Here's Howard Blum.
Speaker 2 (14:44):
Brian Coberger was a student of criminal justice. Part of
his research was studying serial killers. But has his professor,
his advisor, Katherine Ramslin, a great authority in forensic psychology,
author of seventy nine books, rights, you know, fantasy and
killers makes them want to experience the real thing and maybe,
(15:06):
just maybe again this is just speculative, he wanted to
try to see if he could pull off the perfect crime.
Maybe he wanted to try to impress his criminal justice professor,
who was his advisor Katherine Ramslin that I can do
even better than you. You go into prisons and speak
face to face with serial killers. I can do something
even more important, something larger. I can become a serial
(15:30):
killer and get away with it.
Speaker 1 (15:35):
Here's behavioral analyst Robin Draeke sharing why he thinks this
theory holds weight.
Speaker 3 (15:43):
Why did he get into criminology, why did he get
into this, And so with all of us as human beings,
we do things and we're exposed to things and behaviors
in our early formative years of life roughly between ages
nine to twenty four as a prefund the lobes fully
forming that allows us to feel safe and valued by
others because we're genetically and biology coded to gravitate towards
things that make us feel safe and valued. You know,
(16:04):
we see it all the time with people in our
own lives, whether it's in the university or in jobs.
We tend to say someone is really good at something,
if they tend to spend a lot of time doing it,
it's the only thing they focus on. He sucked at
everything else in life, and so he goes off and
studies under Ramsland, who then validates him. Says Wow, he's
so intelligent. Ramslan gave him validation. I mean, she's an expert.
(16:27):
The only thing that motivates a psychopath is notoriety and grandiosity,
and so he sees that, you know, I might be
become notable to someone who I admire. So I don't
think it was going to be a personal thing. I
think part of his motivation was to be someone that
she studied, that he would do something that would like.
(16:48):
She was very impressed, necessarily not like admiration wise, but
very impressed with the level and skills of Bundye Btk
and Dahmer and all these people, and so he wanted
to be that notorious who hers.
Speaker 6 (17:01):
Wow. Yeah, the logic lines up there. I mean, obviously
doctor Ramslan didn't intend this exactly, but it's such an
interesting way to look at this all because you know,
we all like to be good at things, and when
we are good at things, it's like a dopamine effect.
And for once he seems to have found a little niche,
which is being great at criminology. He's found the one
thing that someone says, hey, you know, you're great at this.
(17:23):
You know another thing too that is interesting that we
learned from these documents that he was googling Ted Bundy
a lot before and after the murders. Do you think
that he could have been motivated to become next him?
You know? And in fact, in one of these WSU documents,
a student says that they were comparing the University of
Idaho murders to the child Mega house murders at Florida
State University, which which obviously Bundy was responsible for. What
(17:46):
do you think about this Bundy inspiration theory?
Speaker 3 (17:48):
Everything he's done and everything he did was complete copycat
of someone else. Definitely, I think part of his emo
is trying to be someone in that same realm as them,
for that grandiosity thing. I still think a lot of
what he was doing was studying on what he should
do next and how he should behave and how to
get away with things better. He's trying to find the
(18:08):
best to emulate that got away with things for a
longer period of time. So let's try to be more
like that, and so let's put ourselves in the PhD
candidate shoes of I'm going to try to be the
best at doing this, and since I have no original
thought on my own anyway, let's study, as many people
take the best elements of this person best elements, This
best element is this, and if I put it all together,
(18:30):
because I'm so smart, I can get away with it
because I'm taking all these things and putting together into
one person. So again, no innovation, no original thought. I'm
just going to keep copying all these people. I don't
think he has an original thought ever, yoh.
Speaker 6 (18:42):
One hundred percent. If you could kind of compare some
of his behavior to some other top serial killers, like
compare him to you know, what does he have in
common with BTK? What does he have in common with Bundy?
We'd be very curious to hear your thoughts on that.
Speaker 3 (18:57):
I'm actually going to do the reverse in some cases
when you're trying to say all the similarity to someone,
because there's I think there's a lot of similarities between
what he was trying to do compared you know, with BTK, Dohmer, Bundy.
There's so many comparisons that they become I think overwhelming.
What I think it's easier to do is say where
(19:18):
isn't he similar and where he failed and where he
continues to fail is where they were successful, and that
is most of them were very very good at masking
who they were at their core. They were very good
there eq their emotional intelligence was much higher than his,
and so I think he's very similar in what he
tried to do compared to all the other people. The
(19:41):
differences is that they were being who they were. They
were naturally able to problem solve and innovate. They weren't
copying anyone. They were just being these horrendous serial killers,
and they were naturally figuring out how to do this
really effectively, using their natural charisma, use their natural innerpersonal skills,
and you do those things to get away with it
for longer period time. Coburger had zero of that ability,
(20:03):
and so he's trying to copy people that he's incapable
of copying. He can copy mechanics, but he can't copy empathy.
He can't copy socialization. He's completely incapable of it. So
I think he's very similar in the mechanics of what
all of them were doing, but horrendous and completely incapable
of copying any socialization.
Speaker 6 (20:23):
That's such a good point because yeah, if you think
of Ted Bundy, you know everyone liked him, like, he's
still handsome, he's so smooth with women, BTK was a
leader at the church.
Speaker 3 (20:32):
Oh my god, I think BTK is the best at it.
So Dennis Raider BTK the bondis Tarcher kill killer. He's
very famous serial killer. What he would do is he
was he killed for his sexual fanization as a serial killer,
but he would go for long periods of time in
between his kills. He was able to satiate that by
other stimulation to keep it subdued in that bay. And
(20:56):
the way he hid in plain sight was he had
a family. He is a member of the church as
the president of this organization. He had a daughter. All
these people and all people in his regular life are
completely unaware because he was such a good guy to them.
But then he knew that he was going to have
a period of time where I got to let this
monster out, and he let that monster out. But he's
able to because of his socialization, able to do it
(21:17):
very much like when you see these serial killers that
are able to stay hidden for such a long period
of time. It's because that socialization is so so pronounced
really very good. Because again Coburger stands out to everyone
all the time, his entire life of being awkward and
not so his chance of becoming a serial killer, even
if he wanted to be. He was so low because
(21:37):
he couldn't hide.
Speaker 6 (21:39):
Yes, I think too back of this story from his
high school days where he worked so hard to lose
the weight because he's like, you know, if I lose weight,
maybe people will finally like me. You know. So he
works and works and works, and he loses over one
hundred pounds and still no one likes him. You know,
he tries and tries to be like these famous serial
killers and he fails. How frustrating must that be, you know,
(22:01):
to maybe that's why he's so violent, is you know,
he's like, oh, if I do this, if I do that,
then then people will like me. Then I'll be noticed.
But he just can't seem to ever Land.
Speaker 3 (22:10):
Isn't that the greatest torture he's going through right now
that I'm the only thing I think that gives the
families any piece is the fact that he is tortured
every day by his failure. That is just it's just
magnificent looking at his failure. He failed at everything he
tried to do in life and good and he's reminded
of it every single day.
Speaker 6 (22:28):
Absolutely. One last thing here from these documents, and I
thought this was interesting too. In one of these documents,
there's an interview with some of his fellow teaching assistants
and it says that he was the only one in
the class. This person is saying this, he's the only
one in the class who supported the death penalty, which
you know now is pretty ironic considering he plied guilty
and is living the rest of his life in prison.
(22:52):
What do you make of this behavior.
Speaker 3 (22:55):
My theory, again, it's not because he had that thought,
is because he read that people that are innocent will
say things like that. You interview someone that has done
something heinous, and one of the things that a couple
do during that interview is says, so what do you
think that should happen to someone that did that? And
typically a guilty person will say, well, you know, you know,
(23:15):
they should be given a second chance, you know, and
they'll come up with all these equivalentations on what should
happen other than the maximum sentence to someone. So I
think he've read somewhere that's that's what he should say.
Speaker 1 (23:29):
Let's stop here for a break. We'll be back in
a moment. It turns out that Brian Coberer's past support
for the death penalty was the ultimate irony, because in
the end he pled guilty to avoid Idaho's firing squad
(23:50):
and spare his own life. Now, instead of facing execution,
he spends his days confined to a small sterile cell
at the Idaho Maximum Security Institution. It's a place he'll
call home for the rest of his life. His daily
reality twenty three hours a day in lockdown, with a
(24:13):
single hour outside those four walls. So what does life
really look like for an inmate in Idaho's most secure prison?
What kind of existence awaits Brian Kopecker behind those bars.
Next time, we'll get into it with bail bondsman Kevin Corson.
He has the inside scoop on exactly how the Idaho
(24:35):
Maximum Security Institution operates. More on that next time. For
more information on the case and relevant photos, follow us
on Instagram at kat Underscore Studios. The Idaho Massacre is
produced by Stephanie Leideker, Alison Bankston, Gabriel Castillo and me
(24:58):
Courtney Armstrong. Editing and sound designed by Jeff Toois, Music
by Jared Aston. The Idaho Masacer is a production of
Katie Studios and iHeartRadio. For more podcasts like this, visit
the iHeartRadio app, Apple Podcasts, or wherever you listen to
your favorite shows.
This guy was like American psycho.
Speaker 2 (00:06):
I can do something even more important, something larger. I
can become a serial killer and get away with it.
Speaker 3 (00:14):
I have never seen from any case I've covered someone's
so completely devoid of anything internal.
Speaker 1 (00:27):
This is the Idaho Massacre, a production of KAT Studios
and iHeartRadio, Season three, Episode five, Strange Behavior. I'm Courtney Armstrong,
a producer at KAT Studios, with Stephanie Leideger and Gabriel Castillo.
(00:47):
Over one hundred documents have been released by the Moscow
Police Department and another five hundred and fifty by the
Idaho State Police. Together, they don't just fill in the blanks,
reveal an even clearer and at times far more troubling
picture of this case. Crime analysts Body move In takes
(01:10):
us deep inside the files that focus specifically on Brian
Coberger's behavior, what his colleagues noticed, the patterns that emerged,
and the red flags that may have been hiding in
plain sight. Then behavioral analyst Robin Drake helps us connect
the dots, breaking down what these documents reveal about Coburger's mindset,
(01:33):
his decision making, and the strange behaviors that led up
to the murders. You'll hear Robin's theory on motive why
he thinks this seemingly promising PhD student took such a
dark turn. But first, let's start with Body move In
and Stephanie Leidecker as they guide us through some of
(01:53):
the most revealing files.
Speaker 4 (01:55):
Yet, all of these findings and files coming out publicly,
and we can't get through them fast enough. We're eating
them up as prd as possible. But it shows a
lot into his brain space while getting his PhD.
Speaker 5 (02:10):
He's described by many as creepy, socially awkward, and domineering.
He frequently stared intensely at people. One woman counted nine
times during a class she saw him staring at her intensely,
like creepy, scary.
Speaker 1 (02:27):
Like without a blink.
Speaker 4 (02:28):
You know, times you might just be gazing in a
direction and you happen to be looking at a person
and it's so embarrassing. You're like, I swear I'm not
overly staring. But in this case, this was a repeat pattern,
and he wouldn't really blink. He would just be so
intensely staring.
Speaker 5 (02:44):
He exhibited this macho or puffed up demeanor, and he
always wanted to dominate every conversation he had. So you
if you and I were talking about the new Barbie
Doll okay that we all got we love this Barbie
Doll enter coburger, he would turn the conversation it is
something he's interested, and then dominate that conversation.
Speaker 1 (03:04):
Wow.
Speaker 5 (03:05):
In one report, there was a guy and he said
that Brian wasn't really his friend, but he was more
than an acquaintance, so he's kind of in the in between.
And he got a ride from Brian Coberger and they
ended up being in his car for hours in the
parking lot, just talking, and Brian was venting to him,
saying that I don't you know, I don't have a
lot of guys to talk to, And then he said
(03:27):
he could walk into a bar and have any woman
he wanted.
Speaker 4 (03:30):
Yeah, I mean, give me a break. This guy, he
couldn't get a girl.
Speaker 5 (03:34):
Persistent complaints from women about his behavior. He made sexist
and belittally remarks. He denied man's plaining even exists. This
girl was and then the class was telling her something
about eyewitnesses get things wrong, and they were talking about
that and he basically told her she was wrong and
(03:55):
explained why she was wrong, which is fine, but apparently
he was man's plaining and the argument got so heated
that she left the classroom crying and heated and like
left everything behind. Wow he told a disabled gay student
he would only accept a physically perfect partner and would
she even consider procreating because of her disability.
Speaker 4 (04:18):
Meaning because she had a disability, he thought maybe she shouldn't.
Like That's what he was implying, is that you're not
perfect enough to procreate.
Speaker 6 (04:27):
Right.
Speaker 5 (04:27):
He said in some of these classes that he was
in that he believed in like traditional roles, and he
believed in like traditional marriage. You know, he was homophobic.
He made homophobic comments. He had hostility towards women. He
was dismissive of all the female professors authority. He questioned
one's ability to grade because she was too foreign. He
(04:48):
was systematically late to classes taught by women. He was
never late to the male professor classes. There was even
a male professor who started letting his class out early
so that Brian could make it to his colleague's female class,
and Brian was still late to her class. Wow was
intentionally disruptive. He would leave class in the middle of
(05:11):
a woman speaking one of his professors and go get coffee.
Speaker 1 (05:14):
Are you kidding me? He was dismissive.
Speaker 5 (05:16):
It was so bad that people in classes that were
with Coburger started keeping a tally how many times he
was late to female professors classes versus the male professors.
Female grad students often felt uncomfortable, harassed, or trapped. He
would block doorways, preventing them from leaving offices, and he
(05:37):
would like corner them, and the word was spatially trap
people in rooms and conversations, and then when you would
try to get away from him, he would follow you
and continue the conversation, sometimes following people all the way
to their car. And it got so bad. He allegedly
stalked a staff member, asked her out on a date,
and followed her to a car. She filed a civil
(05:59):
rights complaint with the university about this because he wouldn't
leave her alone. A cafe worker said that he knew
her name and scheduled despite never being told, and she
suspects that he tracked her for weeks in order to
figure that out. In order to figure that out right,
witness has.
Speaker 4 (06:16):
Been the guy that's like sitting outside the restaurant staring
through the window from the outside, marking her shifts.
Speaker 2 (06:23):
Think about that.
Speaker 1 (06:23):
How scary that is.
Speaker 5 (06:25):
Very Witnesses reported him showing up at women's homes or
being linked to suspicious incidents. Knocks on the windows, somebody
on a porch, somebody's underwear was stolen. This one lady,
she's a student and she was in the court. She
invited everybody to her apartment for like some kind of orientation,
(06:46):
including Brian Coburger. Then rumor started circulating that she's on
this drug and she has this disease and da da
dada whatever, and it comes from Brian Coburger. She finds out, well,
he went through her medicine cabinet when he was in
her bathroom at her house. This guy. In fact, one
of the professors said that she works with predators and
she recognizes them when she sees them, and he's definitely
(07:07):
going to be somebody that they hear about. Another one
said that he was probably going to be a future rapist.
And you know, some faculty even warned students not to
be alone with him. You know, I'm a little taken
aback by how obvious his like absolute disdain and disrespect
for women were. What were they thinking after the murders,
like did they question like, Oh my god, I wonder
(07:29):
if it could be him, Like I wonder like internally,
did any of them kind of go o, I don't know.
Here you are, you're getting your PhD. You're a student,
you know.
Speaker 4 (07:40):
And also he has younger people underneath him like their
prey to him. At this point, this guy was like
American psycho.
Speaker 1 (07:52):
We brought in Robin Drake, a retired FBI special agent
and former head of the bureau's Counterintelligence Behavioral and Aalysis program.
He's reviewed these documents detailing Brian Coberger's unsettling behavior and
shares his insight into why Coburger acted the way he did.
He's joined by our producer Alison Bankston.
Speaker 6 (08:15):
To start off, I just I'd love for you to
tell us a little bit about you. What do you
specialize in? What's your background?
Speaker 3 (08:23):
Yeah, so, Naval Academy graduate, Marine Corps officer from there.
I came in the FBI in nineteen ninety seven and
I was a counterintelligence agent. My job was recruiting spies
and I did it my entire career. I got on
our behavioral team for that as a team member, and
then I became the chief of that team, I taught
at Quantico all these advanced techniques for interpersonal relationships and
(08:44):
communication basically, and what that all boils down to is
I had with the FBI before I retired, over twenty
two years of understanding why humans do what they are
going to do. If you're going to recruit a spy,
you have to understand the world through their optic and
lens if they're going to have a relationship with you
and trust you with their life and betray their country.
So with that skill set, when I retired in twenty eighteen,
(09:06):
and even before that, I started getting called for because
everyone sees behavior in my background because chief of the
Beable House program, they and FBI behavior they know they
want me to give my thoughts and opinions on why
bad guys do bad things. I always got to covey
at everything. Not a licensed clinical physician, clinician or anything
like that. This is pure my background from my experiences.
Speaker 6 (09:29):
So these documents, these complaints from his colleagues at WSU,
what do you glean from them? What do they say
about him?
Speaker 3 (09:35):
So what we start seeing with him is exactly how
empty he is. There is nothing there. And what I
mean by that is, there are behaviors that are extremely psychopathic.
And when I worked and believe or not, even in
the world of counter intelligence, you dealt with psychopaths because
if someone's committee an espionage, generally espionage is not the
(09:56):
only thing going sideways in that person's life. And so
that high level of psychopay I saw it multiple times
both in my bureau career and obviously afterwards consulting on
these cases. And at the core of psychopathy, the highest
level of psychopathy, this is pure predator with empty shell
They're really only reacting to biological impulses and genetics, that
is it. And so I have never seen from any
(10:17):
case I've covered, someone so completely devoid of anything internal.
That's Coburger. Every interaction you see with him is the
reason why he creeps people out, because when we see creepy,
what it is is we're picking up as human beings
inconsistencies and behavior inconsistencies and the words that are being
setting the emotions that someone has. This I mean, we're
(10:37):
extremely attuned to our environment as a biological organism on
his planet's evolved for hundreds of thousands of years, and
so when we feel unsafe that's that creepy feeling and
unsafe means there's incongruence in the environment or the individual.
Coburger is the epitome of consistently incongruent because he has
no emotion and he has no idea how to act.
(10:58):
His ability to socialize and how have healthy regular conversations
and knowing boundaries with people that you don't have a
stronger relationship with obviously is again incapable of a self
regulation of knowing what's appropriate and inappropriate.
Speaker 6 (11:11):
What do you make if his treatment of women belitteral
in them, never listening to them, just being beyond this
respectful abhorrent? What does this say about him? And could
this be a motivation?
Speaker 3 (11:21):
Some people have made a lot about in him being
an in cell and things like that. I just see
him as really emotionally and sexually frustrated. I think to
hit that level of wanting to join, because think about it.
In cells are kind of you know, from what I've
seen on it, it's a group and it's a cult
(11:42):
mentality of these people that a group together. Coburg is
not a joiner. That's why I didn't really I don't
put him in the sense of his in cell because
it's kind of a group, a group mentality that kind
of helps each other, you know, rage against you know, girls,
and kind of feel better about who they are by
joining together and doing that. He's not a joiner, so
(12:04):
it doesn't really strike me, but frustrated with his inability
because he sucks at human interaction.
Speaker 6 (12:10):
Interesting, No, I keep kind of going back to the
fact that he'd just stare at people, and he'd also
physically block them in corners, as if he wasn't allowing
that person to leave the conversation. There is something so
odd to me about blocking someone in a corner. It's
scary and awkward.
Speaker 3 (12:26):
If it's a pattern. Because even in the classroom they
talk about him as a TA on the first day
standing awkwardly in front of the class, So I think
part of it is that control aspect of it. I
think the majority of it, though, is his complete unaware
self serving himself of having no clue about what's appropriate inappropriate.
I think he's just so stupid on his emotional intelligence
(12:47):
that he has no clue about what he's doing. I
think he just thinks he's the most important person. Everyone
wants to listen to him because he's so smart, so
everyone must want to listen to me. So I'm just
going to stand here awkwardly. But to him, he's not
being awkward. To him, he's just being who he is.
He just completely oblivious to his impact on others. He
has zero ability to read a room. He has zero
ability to read other people. It is profound, is what
(13:08):
it is.
Speaker 6 (13:09):
Yeah, absolutely, you know in one of these accounts, and
it just goes along with everything you're saying. You know,
he was always thinking he's the smartest person in the room.
And in one of these documents it says that he
was also always bragging about knowing some high profile professor,
which I have to imagine is doctor Kathin Ramslin from
the Sales University. You know, she taught him and he
looked up to her. But yeah, he would brag about
(13:31):
knowing this professor.
Speaker 3 (13:33):
Just a name dropper. So let's go back to the
Ramslan thing because I think it's really relevant because again
it gives us a glimpse on his motivations in life.
So Howard Bloom, great author, did a lot of great work.
His book When Night Comes Falling was a fantastic study,
and he is numerous times said that he thinks part
of Coburger's motivation was to impress Ramslin in some way.
(13:57):
And I always taken what are the people observe when
they've done a lot of deep dives on this? And
I think Howard was on to something.
Speaker 1 (14:07):
Let's stop here for a break. We'll be back in
a moment. Author and investigative journalist Howard Blum has floated
a compelling theory that Brian Coberger may have been driven
by a desire to impress his renowned professor at the
(14:28):
Sales University. His professor was doctor Catherine Ramsland. She's a
criminologist well known for her connections to serial killer studies.
Here's Howard Blum.
Speaker 2 (14:44):
Brian Coberger was a student of criminal justice. Part of
his research was studying serial killers. But has his professor,
his advisor, Katherine Ramslin, a great authority in forensic psychology,
author of seventy nine books, rights, you know, fantasy and
killers makes them want to experience the real thing and maybe,
(15:06):
just maybe again this is just speculative, he wanted to
try to see if he could pull off the perfect crime.
Maybe he wanted to try to impress his criminal justice professor,
who was his advisor Katherine Ramslin that I can do
even better than you. You go into prisons and speak
face to face with serial killers. I can do something
even more important, something larger. I can become a serial
(15:30):
killer and get away with it.
Speaker 1 (15:35):
Here's behavioral analyst Robin Draeke sharing why he thinks this
theory holds weight.
Speaker 3 (15:43):
Why did he get into criminology, why did he get
into this, And so with all of us as human beings,
we do things and we're exposed to things and behaviors
in our early formative years of life roughly between ages
nine to twenty four as a prefund the lobes fully
forming that allows us to feel safe and valued by
others because we're genetically and biology coded to gravitate towards
things that make us feel safe and valued. You know,
(16:04):
we see it all the time with people in our
own lives, whether it's in the university or in jobs.
We tend to say someone is really good at something,
if they tend to spend a lot of time doing it,
it's the only thing they focus on. He sucked at
everything else in life, and so he goes off and
studies under Ramsland, who then validates him. Says Wow, he's
so intelligent. Ramslan gave him validation. I mean, she's an expert.
(16:27):
The only thing that motivates a psychopath is notoriety and grandiosity,
and so he sees that, you know, I might be
become notable to someone who I admire. So I don't
think it was going to be a personal thing. I
think part of his motivation was to be someone that
she studied, that he would do something that would like.
(16:48):
She was very impressed, necessarily not like admiration wise, but
very impressed with the level and skills of Bundye Btk
and Dahmer and all these people, and so he wanted
to be that notorious who hers.
Speaker 6 (17:01):
Wow. Yeah, the logic lines up there. I mean, obviously
doctor Ramslan didn't intend this exactly, but it's such an
interesting way to look at this all because you know,
we all like to be good at things, and when
we are good at things, it's like a dopamine effect.
And for once he seems to have found a little niche,
which is being great at criminology. He's found the one
thing that someone says, hey, you know, you're great at this.
(17:23):
You know another thing too that is interesting that we
learned from these documents that he was googling Ted Bundy
a lot before and after the murders. Do you think
that he could have been motivated to become next him?
You know? And in fact, in one of these WSU documents,
a student says that they were comparing the University of
Idaho murders to the child Mega house murders at Florida
State University, which which obviously Bundy was responsible for. What
(17:46):
do you think about this Bundy inspiration theory?
Speaker 3 (17:48):
Everything he's done and everything he did was complete copycat
of someone else. Definitely, I think part of his emo
is trying to be someone in that same realm as them,
for that grandiosity thing. I still think a lot of
what he was doing was studying on what he should
do next and how he should behave and how to
get away with things better. He's trying to find the
(18:08):
best to emulate that got away with things for a
longer period of time. So let's try to be more
like that, and so let's put ourselves in the PhD
candidate shoes of I'm going to try to be the
best at doing this, and since I have no original
thought on my own anyway, let's study, as many people
take the best elements of this person best elements, This
best element is this, and if I put it all together,
(18:30):
because I'm so smart, I can get away with it
because I'm taking all these things and putting together into
one person. So again, no innovation, no original thought. I'm
just going to keep copying all these people. I don't
think he has an original thought ever, yoh.
Speaker 6 (18:42):
One hundred percent. If you could kind of compare some
of his behavior to some other top serial killers, like
compare him to you know, what does he have in
common with BTK? What does he have in common with Bundy?
We'd be very curious to hear your thoughts on that.
Speaker 3 (18:57):
I'm actually going to do the reverse in some cases
when you're trying to say all the similarity to someone,
because there's I think there's a lot of similarities between
what he was trying to do compared you know, with BTK, Dohmer, Bundy.
There's so many comparisons that they become I think overwhelming.
What I think it's easier to do is say where
(19:18):
isn't he similar and where he failed and where he
continues to fail is where they were successful, and that
is most of them were very very good at masking
who they were at their core. They were very good
there eq their emotional intelligence was much higher than his,
and so I think he's very similar in what he
tried to do compared to all the other people. The
(19:41):
differences is that they were being who they were. They
were naturally able to problem solve and innovate. They weren't
copying anyone. They were just being these horrendous serial killers,
and they were naturally figuring out how to do this
really effectively, using their natural charisma, use their natural innerpersonal skills,
and you do those things to get away with it
for longer period time. Coburger had zero of that ability,
(20:03):
and so he's trying to copy people that he's incapable
of copying. He can copy mechanics, but he can't copy empathy.
He can't copy socialization. He's completely incapable of it. So
I think he's very similar in the mechanics of what
all of them were doing, but horrendous and completely incapable
of copying any socialization.
Speaker 6 (20:23):
That's such a good point because yeah, if you think
of Ted Bundy, you know everyone liked him, like, he's
still handsome, he's so smooth with women, BTK was a
leader at the church.
Speaker 3 (20:32):
Oh my god, I think BTK is the best at it.
So Dennis Raider BTK the bondis Tarcher kill killer. He's
very famous serial killer. What he would do is he
was he killed for his sexual fanization as a serial killer,
but he would go for long periods of time in
between his kills. He was able to satiate that by
other stimulation to keep it subdued in that bay. And
(20:56):
the way he hid in plain sight was he had
a family. He is a member of the church as
the president of this organization. He had a daughter. All
these people and all people in his regular life are
completely unaware because he was such a good guy to them.
But then he knew that he was going to have
a period of time where I got to let this
monster out, and he let that monster out. But he's
able to because of his socialization, able to do it
(21:17):
very much like when you see these serial killers that
are able to stay hidden for such a long period
of time. It's because that socialization is so so pronounced
really very good. Because again Coburger stands out to everyone
all the time, his entire life of being awkward and
not so his chance of becoming a serial killer, even
if he wanted to be. He was so low because
(21:37):
he couldn't hide.
Speaker 6 (21:39):
Yes, I think too back of this story from his
high school days where he worked so hard to lose
the weight because he's like, you know, if I lose weight,
maybe people will finally like me. You know. So he
works and works and works, and he loses over one
hundred pounds and still no one likes him. You know,
he tries and tries to be like these famous serial
killers and he fails. How frustrating must that be, you know,
(22:01):
to maybe that's why he's so violent, is you know,
he's like, oh, if I do this, if I do that,
then then people will like me. Then I'll be noticed.
But he just can't seem to ever Land.
Speaker 3 (22:10):
Isn't that the greatest torture he's going through right now
that I'm the only thing I think that gives the
families any piece is the fact that he is tortured
every day by his failure. That is just it's just
magnificent looking at his failure. He failed at everything he
tried to do in life and good and he's reminded
of it every single day.
Speaker 6 (22:28):
Absolutely. One last thing here from these documents, and I
thought this was interesting too. In one of these documents,
there's an interview with some of his fellow teaching assistants
and it says that he was the only one in
the class. This person is saying this, he's the only
one in the class who supported the death penalty, which
you know now is pretty ironic considering he plied guilty
and is living the rest of his life in prison.
(22:52):
What do you make of this behavior.
Speaker 3 (22:55):
My theory, again, it's not because he had that thought,
is because he read that people that are innocent will
say things like that. You interview someone that has done
something heinous, and one of the things that a couple
do during that interview is says, so what do you
think that should happen to someone that did that? And
typically a guilty person will say, well, you know, you know,
(23:15):
they should be given a second chance, you know, and
they'll come up with all these equivalentations on what should
happen other than the maximum sentence to someone. So I
think he've read somewhere that's that's what he should say.
Speaker 1 (23:29):
Let's stop here for a break. We'll be back in
a moment. It turns out that Brian Coberer's past support
for the death penalty was the ultimate irony, because in
the end he pled guilty to avoid Idaho's firing squad
(23:50):
and spare his own life. Now, instead of facing execution,
he spends his days confined to a small sterile cell
at the Idaho Maximum Security Institution. It's a place he'll
call home for the rest of his life. His daily
reality twenty three hours a day in lockdown, with a
(24:13):
single hour outside those four walls. So what does life
really look like for an inmate in Idaho's most secure prison?
What kind of existence awaits Brian Kopecker behind those bars.
Next time, we'll get into it with bail bondsman Kevin Corson.
He has the inside scoop on exactly how the Idaho
(24:35):
Maximum Security Institution operates. More on that next time. For
more information on the case and relevant photos, follow us
on Instagram at kat Underscore Studios. The Idaho Massacre is
produced by Stephanie Leideker, Alison Bankston, Gabriel Castillo and me
(24:58):
Courtney Armstrong. Editing and sound designed by Jeff Toois, Music
by Jared Aston. The Idaho Masacer is a production of
Katie Studios and iHeartRadio. For more podcasts like this, visit
the iHeartRadio app, Apple Podcasts, or wherever you listen to
your favorite shows.
Hosts And Creators
Stephanie Lydecker
Courtney Armstrong
Jeff Shane
Popular Podcasts
On Purpose with Jay Shetty
I’m Jay Shetty host of On Purpose the worlds #1 Mental Health podcast and I’m so grateful you found us. I started this podcast 5 years ago to invite you into conversations and workshops that are designed to help make you happier, healthier and more healed. I believe that when you (yes you) feel seen, heard and understood you’re able to deal with relationship struggles, work challenges and life’s ups and downs with more ease and grace. I interview experts, celebrities, thought leaders and athletes so that we can grow our mindset, build better habits and uncover a side of them we’ve never seen before. New episodes every Monday and Friday. Your support means the world to me and I don’t take it for granted — click the follow button and leave a review to help us spread the love with On Purpose. I can’t wait for you to listen to your first or 500th episode!
Ruthie's Table 4
For more than 30 years The River Cafe in London, has been the home-from-home of artists, architects, designers, actors, collectors, writers, activists, and politicians. Michael Caine, Glenn Close, JJ Abrams, Steve McQueen, Victoria and David Beckham, and Lily Allen, are just some of the people who love to call The River Cafe home. On River Cafe Table 4, Rogers sits down with her customers—who have become friends—to talk about food memories. Table 4 explores how food impacts every aspect of our lives. “Foods is politics, food is cultural, food is how you express love, food is about your heritage, it defines who you and who you want to be,” says Rogers. Each week, Rogers invites her guest to reminisce about family suppers and first dates, what they cook, how they eat when performing, the restaurants they choose, and what food they seek when they need comfort. And to punctuate each episode of Table 4, guests such as Ralph Fiennes, Emily Blunt, and Alfonso Cuarón, read their favourite recipe from one of the best-selling River Cafe cookbooks. Table 4 itself, is situated near The River Cafe’s open kitchen, close to the bright pink wood-fired oven and next to the glossy yellow pass, where Ruthie oversees the restaurant. You are invited to take a seat at this intimate table and join the conversation. For more information, recipes, and ingredients, go to https://shoptherivercafe.co.uk/ Web: https://rivercafe.co.uk/ Instagram: www.instagram.com/therivercafelondon/ Facebook: https://en-gb.facebook.com/therivercafelondon/ For more podcasts from iHeartRadio, visit the iheartradio app, apple podcasts, or wherever you listen to your favorite shows. Learn more about your ad-choices at https://www.iheartpodcastnetwork.com
The Joe Rogan Experience
The official podcast of comedian Joe Rogan.