August 9, 2023 • 26 mins
Six days after his arrest, Bryan Kohberger makes his first court appearance. How did a little known, mild mannered, graduate student become the only criminal suspect in a quadruple homicide? What in his background could explain his actions?
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Episode Transcript
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Speaker 1 (00:04):
Do you remember where you were when you found out
about the arrest.
Speaker 2 (00:07):
I remember hearing from somebody who's pretty reliable that something
was coming soon, and I said, well, what's soon? And
the person said, I think something's coming in about three weeks.
And then two days later they announced they're having a
press conference.
Speaker 1 (00:24):
Is that standard, by the way to do that.
Speaker 2 (00:25):
This was a case that garnered international attention, so I
think that they knew that they had to let the
public know as quickly as they could. Get arrested in me,
so we get news that there's going to be a
press conference, and we thought, they're not having a press
conference unless they've got something major to talk about. So
we just started scouring around and I started texting people
(00:47):
who I thought would know, and I got a picture
back of a guy named Brian Coburger at Washington State University,
and I thought to myself, who's this. This is a
PhD student in criminology. This is the guy, So it
was pretty stunning.
Speaker 3 (01:09):
This is the Idaho Massacre a production of KT Studios
and iHeartRadio, Episode two, The Face of Fear. I'm Courtney Armstrong,
a television producer at KAT Studios with Stephanie Lydecker, Jeff Shane,
and Connor Powell.
Speaker 1 (01:29):
This morning authorities putting a face to the fear.
Speaker 3 (01:35):
On Thursday, January fifth, twenty twenty three, University of Idaho
murder suspect Brian Coberger made his first appearance in Idaho
since his arrest the day before. The twenty eight year
old criminology PhD student was extradited from his hometown in Albertsville, Pennsylvania.
Speaker 4 (01:56):
How Too, alleged that you committed the felony offs of
murder in the first degree calprie a murder in the
first degree, cow four a murder in the first degree,
Colpi a murderer in the first degree.
Speaker 3 (02:13):
After the four charges of first degree murder were read, Coburger,
wearing an orange prison jumpsuit and a vacant stare, spoke
only to confirm he understood the charges.
Speaker 4 (02:23):
The maximum penalty for this offense, if you plead guilty
or found guilty, is up to death and imprisonment for life.
Speaker 5 (02:30):
Do you understand?
Speaker 3 (02:34):
Coberger's defense attorney, Anne Taylor, requested bail for her client.
Leida County Magistrate Megan Marshall rejected the request. Coburger was
led away to his prison cell. But who is Brian Coberger?
How did a little known, mild mannered graduate student become
the only criminal suspect in a quadruple homicide? And if
(02:57):
he is the murderer, why would someone who profess to
want a career catching criminals become one. When police storm
Brian Coberger's family home in the early hours of December thirtieth,
the sleepy community of Indian Mountain Lake Estates in Albertsville, Pennsylvania,
became the epicenter of the investigation into the murders of
(03:20):
Kaihlei Gonsalvus, Madison Mogan, Xana Kernodle, and Ethan chapin An.
Speaker 6 (03:27):
Indian Mountain Lake is billed as a Pocoo resort community,
and that's also a private gated community. And not all
private communities in the Poconos are gated, but all gated
communities are private, if that makes sense.
Speaker 3 (03:42):
That's Rod Divine speaking to producer Jeff Shane. Rod Divine
is a nationally known licensed private detective. His firm is
Divine Intervention Detective Services and has offices in Allentown, Pennsylvania,
which is about forty minutes from Brian Coberger's parents'.
Speaker 7 (03:58):
Home build themselves as a Polkado resort.
Speaker 6 (04:02):
But it's not you know, we're not talking about a
strongly wooded area there. If you probably would go into
in the Amount Lake, you would find medium to upper
middle class people in neighborhoods that have homes not unlike
any other neighborhood.
Speaker 8 (04:18):
It sounds like what you're saying is it's just pretty normal,
like it's a standard neighborhood.
Speaker 6 (04:23):
It's a standard neighborhood, absolutely, And if you go another
forty minutes to an hour, you're going to get to
those places where you probably have envisioned in your mind
that are cabins that are in the woods and your
next neighbor over or between you and a bunch.
Speaker 7 (04:37):
Of trees and things like that.
Speaker 6 (04:39):
That's very real, you know, And that's not too far
from where this in the Amount Lake is, and you
use your terminology, and it's very normal. It's a single dwelling,
it's you know, it's a regular neighborhood.
Speaker 7 (04:51):
And it's not deep in a rural wooded area.
Speaker 8 (04:54):
Is there anything about it that stands out or that
would make it that you would walk past it and
be like, you know what I mean, Like it just
in the Based on the picture, it just looks like
every other house in the neighborhood.
Speaker 7 (05:04):
It is it is.
Speaker 6 (05:05):
You wouldn't look twice about it if you're walking in
that community, because it's one of many the same.
Speaker 7 (05:11):
There's nothing that stands out about it.
Speaker 3 (05:14):
According to public documents, the Coburgers moved to Pennsylvania from
New York.
Speaker 6 (05:19):
I grew up in New Jersey myself, and I was
born in Brooklyn, So it's not unusual to see people
from New York and New Jersey gravitate you to the
Pocono area. I've got a home currently in the Poconos,
and a lot of my neighbors are New York City cops,
ex New York City cops.
Speaker 7 (05:35):
You know, there's a lot of firemen.
Speaker 6 (05:37):
And things like that. So that's a that's very normal,
And I guess if we're looking for normal normalcy, these
guys meet that.
Speaker 7 (05:44):
If you look at.
Speaker 6 (05:45):
Pay on paper, I mean, they've got mom and dad,
got three kids. Mom and dad are from New York,
got a house up in the Poconos. You know, it
seems like they've lived up there for close to thirty years.
If you know, on paper, these guys are very quote
unquote normal from what I've seen of this guy, and
he doesn't seem a little off, and so you start
hearing about the backstory, you know, and that is where
(06:09):
sometimes you have to stand back and look at things
a little bit closer, because it's a lot easier to
look at someone after you've got a story and say, yeah,
he seems a little bit off.
Speaker 7 (06:18):
You know.
Speaker 6 (06:19):
There's no one that wears that hat that says, you know,
I'm I'm gonna mug you, or I'm gonna rape you,
or I'm gonna kill you.
Speaker 7 (06:25):
You just don't know.
Speaker 3 (06:29):
If Brian Coberger is the killer behind the gruesome Idaho murders.
He is anything but normal, but what in his background
could explain his actions? Here's Jeff and Stephanie.
Speaker 8 (06:43):
Twenty eight year old Brian Coburger is a criminology student
getting his PhD at Washington State University, which is about
fifteen to twenty minutes from Moscow in Idaho. We also
know that Brian Coberger drives a white Hyundai Elantra, which
is potentially a key piece.
Speaker 9 (06:57):
Of evidence if in fact, what Brian Coburger is accused
of turns out to be true. He is the scariest
person alive, but it's almost as though he would be
the real life Dexter. Dexter is this fictitious character from
a scripted series where this very smart and fairly functional
guy turns out to actually be the serial killer. It's
(07:19):
also like that scripted series on Netflix called You, where
the killer is just this ordinary guy, some unexpected murderer
who works at a bookshop. But I guess does not
pretend and he is not a character. He's not wearing
a Halloween mask and some black cloak over himself like
you would see in a scary movie. This is just
(07:39):
an unassuming PhD student who lives allegedly a few miles
away from the victims.
Speaker 8 (07:46):
For years, the Coburger has lived in Effort, Pennsylvania, a
small town near where Brian was arrested. Both his parents,
Michael and Marianne, worked for the Pleasant Valley School District,
the same one where Brian would attend high school. This
is the same school district where Coburger and his two
sisters attended school.
Speaker 9 (08:01):
According to the people we spoke to, the Coburgers lived
a very air quotes normal middle class life and from
a young age. Friends say that Brian was a bit shy,
that he was very awkward, but that he desperately wanted
to be an army ranger or a police officer.
Speaker 2 (08:23):
He was pretty normal.
Speaker 10 (08:24):
He was definitely heavier set, and that caused issues in school.
Speaker 3 (08:30):
As a young kid, Coburger was overweight and was often bullied.
Then he lost one hundred pounds his senior year in
high school. But it wasn't only his appearance that changed.
His demeanor did as well. The dramatic change, according to
people who knew Brian Coburger, stems from his time in
the law enforcement vocational program in high school.
Speaker 11 (08:54):
It's interesting because when he was being enrolled in our program,
we were told that this was all he wanted, protective services.
You know, that this was something that he had been
dreaming of for a long time, that he had been
working toward for a long time. And so to find
out that kind of want to awry to the degree
(09:14):
that it did was very surprising, to be honest. So however,
with that said, after he had been enrolled, you know,
there were some circumstances that led us to believe that
maybe there were going to be some difficulties in Brian's
life that weren't going to be weren't going to contribute
to him having an easy time of it, you know,
like just it wasn't going to be just ending up
(09:36):
in the UH police academy kind of thing for him.
It was it was going to be a little bit
more of a challenge for him to get.
Speaker 3 (09:42):
There is a former school administrator who oversaw student discipline
and mental health at Brian Coberger's high school. She remembers
him well because of the passion Coburger had for becoming
a police But the.
Speaker 11 (10:02):
Reason that I remember his application was because of the
way the guidance counselor just really played it up how
it was, you know, all he wanted.
Speaker 3 (10:11):
However, she says, Coburger struggled in the law enforcement program.
Speaker 11 (10:16):
He was a leader in his class, he absolutely was.
He took the class extremely seriously, and so in that regard,
it was evident that that was really something he was
very he was very interested in doing as a career. However,
you know, he was a leader in the class. Now
that sometimes leaders don't always get the respect that they should.
Speaker 3 (10:43):
At some point in Colberger's junior year there was an
incident with other students, so she can't elaborate about the
specific incident because of legal reasons. Here's speaking with Jeff Shane.
Speaker 11 (10:56):
Protective Services and health Occupations were the only two programs
in our school where clearances were required to be as
a student to be in those programs, so you were
judged a little bit more carefully in those programs. Therefore,
if you have an infraction that could potentially, as an
(11:19):
adult in the field, be a big employment issue for you,
then we would very seriously look at removing you from
the program. So a situation occurred where a complaint was
made and the teacher reported it to me and said,
this is something we can have. An investigation needed to
(11:41):
be conducted. Other students were interviewed, Brian was interviewed, and
you know, there comes a time when decisions have to
be made, whether it's the decision the student wants or not, it.
Speaker 8 (11:53):
Must be such a tough position. It's horrible because it's
you know, it's someone's dream.
Speaker 11 (11:58):
It's horrible. Yeah, yeah, it is. And especially because by
virtue of what I do with special education and guidance,
Like I said, I'm all about second chances, and I
recognize that these are still kids. But because of these
two programs. We don't have a whole lot of latitude
there and ability for forgiveness. However, with this said, and
as you may know, it doesn't mean that you can't
(12:20):
transition into another program that doesn't have the requirement of clearances.
He was removed from protective Services and transitioned into HVAC
and then at the end of that eleventh grade years
when he decided not to return as a senior, do.
Speaker 8 (12:34):
You remember what he was feeling like when that transition happened.
Speaker 11 (12:39):
I believe he was going through other stuff that was
not a part of what was happening at our school.
So my feeling was that he was defeated, you know,
because it's the only thing you ever wanted in life,
and you had it, and now that's falling through. But
then something else that's going on in your life that's
(13:01):
not even relevant to that is also causing angst, and
so it's just I think it was just a lot
of defeat.
Speaker 8 (13:07):
You wouldn't describe it as angry or upset. It was
more just like he was sad.
Speaker 11 (13:12):
Yeah, yep, I don't think that maybe he necessarily grasped
the depth and breadth of the issue at hand, So
I think there was frustration as to not really understanding.
I don't understand what the problem is. This is not
a big deal or you know, this didn't happen. It
wasn't like a like an anger, like an explosive anger
(13:35):
or anything at all like that. It was just like
seriously kind of thing, do you know what I mean?
Speaker 8 (13:41):
Did this happen a lot where students had to be
pulled or sweached or any and.
Speaker 11 (13:44):
Last it happened, But it didn't happen a lot, particularly
in programs like protective services and health occupations because those
kids really had to fight to get into those programs
so to speak, because there's such a long waiting list,
and if you're chosen, you know, not to screw it up,
(14:05):
because if you screw it up, you don't get a
second chance kind of thing. You know, if you if
you're removed in your in your sophomore year or whatever,
you don't get to come back again in your junior
year or.
Speaker 7 (14:14):
Your senior year. That's it.
Speaker 3 (14:15):
You're done.
Speaker 1 (14:16):
I see. So is that is that the type of
infraction that kids would get pulled for, like behavior or
cheating or drugs or like drinking or is that like
what are the types of infractions that would cause.
Speaker 11 (14:27):
To be removed from a program. Yeah, to be removed
from a program, it has to be pretty severe. Again,
the bar is pretty high when it comes to predicted
services in health. You know that the level of expectation
for behavior is held to a much higher standard there.
But in the other programs, if it's if it's a
(14:48):
drug offense, then you're just you know, you're just out
if it's something that's really egregious. Otherwise we let law
enforcement handle it. You get suspended, you do your time
when you come back. But that kind of I think
it's not an option in a program like productive services
because again, in the field, you wouldn't be able to
do that and still get your job back.
Speaker 8 (15:08):
Knowing what allegedly we know now about what he did
versus like what he wanted to become.
Speaker 1 (15:14):
How do you wrap your head around that.
Speaker 11 (15:16):
It's interesting because ultimately, and I have to be careful
what I say, but like, ultimately, what had him removed
from the program when I look back on it now
makes sense And I don't know, and that probably isn't
clear for you at all, But the fact that he
wanted law enforcement more than anything else in the world.
(15:36):
If you look at it from just that perspective alone,
not knowing what I know, then yeah, you'd be like,
I can't. I'm so shocked, and in that respect, I am.
But then I know another little piece, which is the
piece that occurred at the school, and so then I'm like, oh,
and see that makes sense. When I heard about the murders,
(15:57):
it was actually the school guidance counselor that said did
you hear? And I'm like what? But she said to me,
did you hear about Brian? And I'm like, I don't
know what you're talking about. She said, turn on the news.
Speaker 7 (16:09):
And then I was like, oh my god.
Speaker 11 (16:12):
But with that said, I was shocked, but it made sense.
Speaker 3 (16:20):
Let's stop here for a break. We'll be back in
a moment. Friends say it was around the time of
his dismissal from the law enforcement vocation program that Coberger
lost weight and his personality changed. I am just an
absolute shocker.
Speaker 11 (16:40):
Now.
Speaker 3 (16:41):
Casey Arntce was two years ahead of Coburger in high school.
She and her brother Thomas were friends with him, but in.
Speaker 7 (16:48):
High school, dramatic changes washed over Coburger.
Speaker 1 (16:51):
According to several friends.
Speaker 3 (16:53):
She says Coburger went from being overweight to rail Finn
and both Casey and Thomas say they remember Coburger as
a bully.
Speaker 2 (17:00):
Brian Coberger's childhood friend, Thomas, speaking to ABC News describing
the Idaho murder suspect as mean in high school, saying
Brian was eager to be seen as dominant.
Speaker 3 (17:11):
He would just like put me in.
Speaker 12 (17:12):
He would like grapple me and like put me in
headlocks and arm bars and stuff like that.
Speaker 3 (17:18):
Coburger also took up boxing and increasingly styled himself as
a dominant alpha male. Another friend, rich Pasquad, knew the
Coburger family and worked with Hoburger at a pizza shop.
Speaker 13 (17:29):
I met him through some friends and they told me
that he was a little weird and he was a
little socially awkward, I guess you could say, but he
wasn't a bad guy.
Speaker 3 (17:42):
However, Pascual also offered an explanation for the sudden weight
loss and dramatic personality change.
Speaker 13 (17:49):
He did use drugs. That's how I really know him too.
He was a big heroin addict, and so was I.
I got six years clean. Now I work in treatment
and everything, but back then I was using and so
that's how I know for a fact he was using
I've Got High with him a couple times.
Speaker 3 (18:08):
After being kicked out of the Law Enforcement Vocation program
and opting not to return to the HVAC program after
his junior year, Coburger would graduate high school in twenty thirteen,
finishing remotely online. At some point he went to rehab
and got clean. Coburger began taking college classes in psychology
and criminal justice at to Sales University in Pennsylvania. He
(18:32):
graduated from to Sales with both an undergraduate and a
master's degree. Michelle Bulger, a professor at to Sales, described
Coburger as a great writer and a brilliant student. She
would later recommend him for a PhD program. Others say
he was intelligent and nearly obsessive about criminology, but Coberger
was also described as creepy by others in the community.
Speaker 2 (18:54):
Two years ago, a man he believes was Coburger used
to act so creepy to female customers he had to
tell him to stop that.
Speaker 3 (19:00):
Coburger was asking.
Speaker 6 (19:02):
People like where they lived and who they lived with
if they were there alone, just like very very red
flag questions.
Speaker 3 (19:09):
Here again, Stephanie and Jeff, I.
Speaker 9 (19:12):
Think That's one of the scarier parts about this case
is the notion of someone being creepy. That's such a
wide term. It's the person sitting next to you on
an airplane or the person who moves into the apartment
across the hall. We have to listen to our gut.
Speaker 8 (19:28):
Yeah, stuff, I think hindsight is twenty twenty in a
case like this. You know, all the behavior that Brian
exhibited at the time might have not meant anything, But
now that we know what he's being accused of doing,
we can kind of recontextualize it in our heads and
it kind of fits together like a puzzle to potentially
something much more nefarious. But does all of that a
(19:48):
killer make We're not judging jury. It's not up for
us to decide. What we're trying to do is just
break down the facts and let you, the listeners, come
to your own conclusions.
Speaker 9 (19:57):
What if he is innocent, I mean, he had this
point says that he is he is innocent, and he
claims that he had nothing to do with this. And
if that's the case, then this person is really being
tried in the press, and.
Speaker 3 (20:09):
Is that justice?
Speaker 9 (20:10):
Is that okay? But how does this ordinary guy from
the Poconos in New York. Make a leap from being
a student to a mass murderer. That is a huge jump.
And again he wrapped up his school session, hopped in
his white Lantra with his dad and road tripped across
the country.
Speaker 3 (20:27):
Is that possible? Here's reporter an jette Levy of the
Law and Crime Network.
Speaker 2 (20:36):
I think given the circumstances of this case, you have
to kind of look at it and look at whether
or not he was studying these things. If he's indeed
the guy, if he's indeed factually guilty, and he is
the person who committed these crimes. I'm not talking about
the legal standard. I think you have to kind of
look at it and say, what was going on with them?
Why was he studying this? Was this part of some
(20:58):
type of motivation? What was his endgame here? I think
that we also have to just look at it through
another lens, too, like who is this guy? He is
somebody who reportedly had addiction problems in high school. He
had used heroin from everything we've learned through our reporting.
(21:19):
He's also somebody who apparently had a hard time getting
dates and you know, really having close relationships with people.
It sounds like he clashed with some of the people
he was friends with when he was in high school.
So I think there are a number of ways we
have to look at this. If he's ultimately convicted, it could,
(21:43):
you know, a lot of his background could become more relevant.
Let's say that this is something he was planning for
a couple of years. If he's indeed the guy and
he was planning this, maybe there's something there. Maybe this
is why he was doing it, you know, maybe this
is why he was studying criminology and looking at these behaviors.
But everything we learned was too that he said he
(22:05):
wanted to do something like, you know, help rural police
departments and stuff like that. So I don't know how
studying serial killers or you know, how that would factor
into I want to be a mass killer. I don't
know how that would factor into that. Maybe he truly
did want to do work to help small rural police departments,
(22:26):
but I think we'll have to wait and see if
any of this becomes relevant.
Speaker 3 (22:32):
Let's stop here for another break. If Brian Colberger was
once a shy and awkward kid by the time he
arrived in Pullman, Washington for his PhD studies. He was
a totally different man. Benjamin Roberts took several classes with
(22:55):
Coburger at WSU.
Speaker 5 (22:58):
He seemed very comfortable around all. He was fairly quick
to offer his opinion and thoughts, and he was always
participating fairy eagerly in classroom discussions.
Speaker 3 (23:08):
But Roberts also said Coburger had an aura of academic
arrogance about him. He would describe things in the most
complicated way. Roberts also said Colberger liked to brag about
his dating life.
Speaker 5 (23:20):
At one point, he just idly mentioned, you know, I
can go down to a bowl or a club and
just have pretty much any lady I want.
Speaker 3 (23:31):
Other classmates said Coburger made inappropriate comments about the LGBTQ
community and was often condescending towards women. One female doctoral
student accused Coburger of man's planning during a particularly heated argument.
As part of his pH d program, Coburger was a
teaching assistant in Washington State University's Department of Criminal Justice
(23:52):
and Criminology.
Speaker 10 (23:56):
When he came into class, he was very super mentally present.
He would stand up the front look at the ground.
Speaker 3 (24:03):
Hayden Stinchfield said Coberger was disliked by undergraduates because of
his difficult grading, but that changed in November of twenty
twenty two.
Speaker 10 (24:12):
About a month before winter break, when the murders happened.
He started grading everybody just one hundreds, like you pretty
much have you turned something in? You were getting high marked,
and he stopped leaving notes. It was just, you know,
he seemed preoccupied, is what I would have said at
the time, And now obviously he seems like he was
probably pretty preoccupied.
Speaker 3 (24:31):
In early December, a few weeks before his arrest, Coburger
was fired from his teaching assistant position after repeated conduct
of unprofessional behavior. That behavior included fighting with the university
professor and allegations he followed one female student to her car.
(24:53):
More on that next time. For more information on the
case and relevant photos, follow us on Instea at kat
Underscore Studios. The Idaho Masacer is produced by Stephanie Leidecker,
Jeff Shane, Connor Powell, Chris Bargo, Gabriel Castillo, and me
Courtney Armstrong. Editing and sound designed by Jeff Toi. Music
(25:16):
by Jared Aston. The Idaho Masacre is a production of
iHeart Radio and Kat's Studios. For more podcasts like this,
visit the iHeartRadio app, Apple Podcasts, or wherever you listen
to your favorite shows. I'm Diana.
Speaker 12 (25:33):
You may know as Body Moving, My Friend and I
John Green were featured in the Netflix documentary Don't f
with Cats. On our new podcast, True Crimes with John
and Deiana were turning our online investigative skills to some
of the most unexplained, unsolved, and most ignored cases.
Speaker 1 (25:51):
Please say. Thirty three year old bride Again was shot dead,
gunned down in front of his two year old daughter.
Speaker 10 (25:56):
Detectives confirmed that it was a targeted attack.
Speaker 12 (25:59):
It appears and execution style assassination. This is very active,
so we have to be careful.
Speaker 11 (26:05):
I've heard that there's a house that has some bodies
in the basement.
Speaker 2 (26:08):
I knew.
Speaker 11 (26:09):
I just knew the move was wrong.
Speaker 8 (26:11):
Maybe there's something more sinister at play than just one
young girl going missing. If you know something, heard something,
please it's never too late.
Speaker 2 (26:21):
To do the right thing.
Speaker 12 (26:23):
This is True Crimes with John and Deanna.
Speaker 8 (26:25):
The production of KT Studios and iHeartRadio. Justice is something
that takes different shapes or formed
Do you remember where you were when you found out
about the arrest.
Speaker 2 (00:07):
I remember hearing from somebody who's pretty reliable that something
was coming soon, and I said, well, what's soon? And
the person said, I think something's coming in about three weeks.
And then two days later they announced they're having a
press conference.
Speaker 1 (00:24):
Is that standard, by the way to do that.
Speaker 2 (00:25):
This was a case that garnered international attention, so I
think that they knew that they had to let the
public know as quickly as they could. Get arrested in me,
so we get news that there's going to be a
press conference, and we thought, they're not having a press
conference unless they've got something major to talk about. So
we just started scouring around and I started texting people
(00:47):
who I thought would know, and I got a picture
back of a guy named Brian Coburger at Washington State University,
and I thought to myself, who's this. This is a
PhD student in criminology. This is the guy, So it
was pretty stunning.
Speaker 3 (01:09):
This is the Idaho Massacre a production of KT Studios
and iHeartRadio, Episode two, The Face of Fear. I'm Courtney Armstrong,
a television producer at KAT Studios with Stephanie Lydecker, Jeff Shane,
and Connor Powell.
Speaker 1 (01:29):
This morning authorities putting a face to the fear.
Speaker 3 (01:35):
On Thursday, January fifth, twenty twenty three, University of Idaho
murder suspect Brian Coberger made his first appearance in Idaho
since his arrest the day before. The twenty eight year
old criminology PhD student was extradited from his hometown in Albertsville, Pennsylvania.
Speaker 4 (01:56):
How Too, alleged that you committed the felony offs of
murder in the first degree calprie a murder in the
first degree, cow four a murder in the first degree,
Colpi a murderer in the first degree.
Speaker 3 (02:13):
After the four charges of first degree murder were read, Coburger,
wearing an orange prison jumpsuit and a vacant stare, spoke
only to confirm he understood the charges.
Speaker 4 (02:23):
The maximum penalty for this offense, if you plead guilty
or found guilty, is up to death and imprisonment for life.
Speaker 5 (02:30):
Do you understand?
Speaker 3 (02:34):
Coberger's defense attorney, Anne Taylor, requested bail for her client.
Leida County Magistrate Megan Marshall rejected the request. Coburger was
led away to his prison cell. But who is Brian Coberger?
How did a little known, mild mannered graduate student become
the only criminal suspect in a quadruple homicide? And if
(02:57):
he is the murderer, why would someone who profess to
want a career catching criminals become one. When police storm
Brian Coberger's family home in the early hours of December thirtieth,
the sleepy community of Indian Mountain Lake Estates in Albertsville, Pennsylvania,
became the epicenter of the investigation into the murders of
(03:20):
Kaihlei Gonsalvus, Madison Mogan, Xana Kernodle, and Ethan chapin An.
Speaker 6 (03:27):
Indian Mountain Lake is billed as a Pocoo resort community,
and that's also a private gated community. And not all
private communities in the Poconos are gated, but all gated
communities are private, if that makes sense.
Speaker 3 (03:42):
That's Rod Divine speaking to producer Jeff Shane. Rod Divine
is a nationally known licensed private detective. His firm is
Divine Intervention Detective Services and has offices in Allentown, Pennsylvania,
which is about forty minutes from Brian Coberger's parents'.
Speaker 7 (03:58):
Home build themselves as a Polkado resort.
Speaker 6 (04:02):
But it's not you know, we're not talking about a
strongly wooded area there. If you probably would go into
in the Amount Lake, you would find medium to upper
middle class people in neighborhoods that have homes not unlike
any other neighborhood.
Speaker 8 (04:18):
It sounds like what you're saying is it's just pretty normal,
like it's a standard neighborhood.
Speaker 6 (04:23):
It's a standard neighborhood, absolutely, And if you go another
forty minutes to an hour, you're going to get to
those places where you probably have envisioned in your mind
that are cabins that are in the woods and your
next neighbor over or between you and a bunch.
Speaker 7 (04:37):
Of trees and things like that.
Speaker 6 (04:39):
That's very real, you know, And that's not too far
from where this in the Amount Lake is, and you
use your terminology, and it's very normal. It's a single dwelling,
it's you know, it's a regular neighborhood.
Speaker 7 (04:51):
And it's not deep in a rural wooded area.
Speaker 8 (04:54):
Is there anything about it that stands out or that
would make it that you would walk past it and
be like, you know what I mean, Like it just
in the Based on the picture, it just looks like
every other house in the neighborhood.
Speaker 7 (05:04):
It is it is.
Speaker 6 (05:05):
You wouldn't look twice about it if you're walking in
that community, because it's one of many the same.
Speaker 7 (05:11):
There's nothing that stands out about it.
Speaker 3 (05:14):
According to public documents, the Coburgers moved to Pennsylvania from
New York.
Speaker 6 (05:19):
I grew up in New Jersey myself, and I was
born in Brooklyn, So it's not unusual to see people
from New York and New Jersey gravitate you to the
Pocono area. I've got a home currently in the Poconos,
and a lot of my neighbors are New York City cops,
ex New York City cops.
Speaker 7 (05:35):
You know, there's a lot of firemen.
Speaker 6 (05:37):
And things like that. So that's a that's very normal,
And I guess if we're looking for normal normalcy, these
guys meet that.
Speaker 7 (05:44):
If you look at.
Speaker 6 (05:45):
Pay on paper, I mean, they've got mom and dad,
got three kids. Mom and dad are from New York,
got a house up in the Poconos. You know, it
seems like they've lived up there for close to thirty years.
If you know, on paper, these guys are very quote
unquote normal from what I've seen of this guy, and
he doesn't seem a little off, and so you start
hearing about the backstory, you know, and that is where
(06:09):
sometimes you have to stand back and look at things
a little bit closer, because it's a lot easier to
look at someone after you've got a story and say, yeah,
he seems a little bit off.
Speaker 7 (06:18):
You know.
Speaker 6 (06:19):
There's no one that wears that hat that says, you know,
I'm I'm gonna mug you, or I'm gonna rape you,
or I'm gonna kill you.
Speaker 7 (06:25):
You just don't know.
Speaker 3 (06:29):
If Brian Coberger is the killer behind the gruesome Idaho murders.
He is anything but normal, but what in his background
could explain his actions? Here's Jeff and Stephanie.
Speaker 8 (06:43):
Twenty eight year old Brian Coburger is a criminology student
getting his PhD at Washington State University, which is about
fifteen to twenty minutes from Moscow in Idaho. We also
know that Brian Coberger drives a white Hyundai Elantra, which
is potentially a key piece.
Speaker 9 (06:57):
Of evidence if in fact, what Brian Coburger is accused
of turns out to be true. He is the scariest
person alive, but it's almost as though he would be
the real life Dexter. Dexter is this fictitious character from
a scripted series where this very smart and fairly functional
guy turns out to actually be the serial killer. It's
(07:19):
also like that scripted series on Netflix called You, where
the killer is just this ordinary guy, some unexpected murderer
who works at a bookshop. But I guess does not
pretend and he is not a character. He's not wearing
a Halloween mask and some black cloak over himself like
you would see in a scary movie. This is just
(07:39):
an unassuming PhD student who lives allegedly a few miles
away from the victims.
Speaker 8 (07:46):
For years, the Coburger has lived in Effort, Pennsylvania, a
small town near where Brian was arrested. Both his parents,
Michael and Marianne, worked for the Pleasant Valley School District,
the same one where Brian would attend high school. This
is the same school district where Coburger and his two
sisters attended school.
Speaker 9 (08:01):
According to the people we spoke to, the Coburgers lived
a very air quotes normal middle class life and from
a young age. Friends say that Brian was a bit shy,
that he was very awkward, but that he desperately wanted
to be an army ranger or a police officer.
Speaker 2 (08:23):
He was pretty normal.
Speaker 10 (08:24):
He was definitely heavier set, and that caused issues in school.
Speaker 3 (08:30):
As a young kid, Coburger was overweight and was often bullied.
Then he lost one hundred pounds his senior year in
high school. But it wasn't only his appearance that changed.
His demeanor did as well. The dramatic change, according to
people who knew Brian Coburger, stems from his time in
the law enforcement vocational program in high school.
Speaker 11 (08:54):
It's interesting because when he was being enrolled in our program,
we were told that this was all he wanted, protective services.
You know, that this was something that he had been
dreaming of for a long time, that he had been
working toward for a long time. And so to find
out that kind of want to awry to the degree
(09:14):
that it did was very surprising, to be honest. So however,
with that said, after he had been enrolled, you know,
there were some circumstances that led us to believe that
maybe there were going to be some difficulties in Brian's
life that weren't going to be weren't going to contribute
to him having an easy time of it, you know,
like just it wasn't going to be just ending up
(09:36):
in the UH police academy kind of thing for him.
It was it was going to be a little bit
more of a challenge for him to get.
Speaker 3 (09:42):
There is a former school administrator who oversaw student discipline
and mental health at Brian Coberger's high school. She remembers
him well because of the passion Coburger had for becoming
a police But the.
Speaker 11 (10:02):
Reason that I remember his application was because of the
way the guidance counselor just really played it up how
it was, you know, all he wanted.
Speaker 3 (10:11):
However, she says, Coburger struggled in the law enforcement program.
Speaker 11 (10:16):
He was a leader in his class, he absolutely was.
He took the class extremely seriously, and so in that regard,
it was evident that that was really something he was
very he was very interested in doing as a career. However,
you know, he was a leader in the class. Now
that sometimes leaders don't always get the respect that they should.
Speaker 3 (10:43):
At some point in Colberger's junior year there was an
incident with other students, so she can't elaborate about the
specific incident because of legal reasons. Here's speaking with Jeff Shane.
Speaker 11 (10:56):
Protective Services and health Occupations were the only two programs
in our school where clearances were required to be as
a student to be in those programs, so you were
judged a little bit more carefully in those programs. Therefore,
if you have an infraction that could potentially, as an
(11:19):
adult in the field, be a big employment issue for you,
then we would very seriously look at removing you from
the program. So a situation occurred where a complaint was
made and the teacher reported it to me and said,
this is something we can have. An investigation needed to
(11:41):
be conducted. Other students were interviewed, Brian was interviewed, and
you know, there comes a time when decisions have to
be made, whether it's the decision the student wants or not, it.
Speaker 8 (11:53):
Must be such a tough position. It's horrible because it's
you know, it's someone's dream.
Speaker 11 (11:58):
It's horrible. Yeah, yeah, it is. And especially because by
virtue of what I do with special education and guidance,
Like I said, I'm all about second chances, and I
recognize that these are still kids. But because of these
two programs. We don't have a whole lot of latitude
there and ability for forgiveness. However, with this said, and
as you may know, it doesn't mean that you can't
(12:20):
transition into another program that doesn't have the requirement of clearances.
He was removed from protective Services and transitioned into HVAC
and then at the end of that eleventh grade years
when he decided not to return as a senior, do.
Speaker 8 (12:34):
You remember what he was feeling like when that transition happened.
Speaker 11 (12:39):
I believe he was going through other stuff that was
not a part of what was happening at our school.
So my feeling was that he was defeated, you know,
because it's the only thing you ever wanted in life,
and you had it, and now that's falling through. But
then something else that's going on in your life that's
(13:01):
not even relevant to that is also causing angst, and
so it's just I think it was just a lot
of defeat.
Speaker 8 (13:07):
You wouldn't describe it as angry or upset. It was
more just like he was sad.
Speaker 11 (13:12):
Yeah, yep, I don't think that maybe he necessarily grasped
the depth and breadth of the issue at hand, So
I think there was frustration as to not really understanding.
I don't understand what the problem is. This is not
a big deal or you know, this didn't happen. It
wasn't like a like an anger, like an explosive anger
(13:35):
or anything at all like that. It was just like
seriously kind of thing, do you know what I mean?
Speaker 8 (13:41):
Did this happen a lot where students had to be
pulled or sweached or any and.
Speaker 11 (13:44):
Last it happened, But it didn't happen a lot, particularly
in programs like protective services and health occupations because those
kids really had to fight to get into those programs
so to speak, because there's such a long waiting list,
and if you're chosen, you know, not to screw it up,
(14:05):
because if you screw it up, you don't get a
second chance kind of thing. You know, if you if
you're removed in your in your sophomore year or whatever,
you don't get to come back again in your junior
year or.
Speaker 7 (14:14):
Your senior year. That's it.
Speaker 3 (14:15):
You're done.
Speaker 1 (14:16):
I see. So is that is that the type of
infraction that kids would get pulled for, like behavior or
cheating or drugs or like drinking or is that like
what are the types of infractions that would cause.
Speaker 11 (14:27):
To be removed from a program. Yeah, to be removed
from a program, it has to be pretty severe. Again,
the bar is pretty high when it comes to predicted
services in health. You know that the level of expectation
for behavior is held to a much higher standard there.
But in the other programs, if it's if it's a
(14:48):
drug offense, then you're just you know, you're just out
if it's something that's really egregious. Otherwise we let law
enforcement handle it. You get suspended, you do your time
when you come back. But that kind of I think
it's not an option in a program like productive services
because again, in the field, you wouldn't be able to
do that and still get your job back.
Speaker 8 (15:08):
Knowing what allegedly we know now about what he did
versus like what he wanted to become.
Speaker 1 (15:14):
How do you wrap your head around that.
Speaker 11 (15:16):
It's interesting because ultimately, and I have to be careful
what I say, but like, ultimately, what had him removed
from the program when I look back on it now
makes sense And I don't know, and that probably isn't
clear for you at all, But the fact that he
wanted law enforcement more than anything else in the world.
(15:36):
If you look at it from just that perspective alone,
not knowing what I know, then yeah, you'd be like,
I can't. I'm so shocked, and in that respect, I am.
But then I know another little piece, which is the
piece that occurred at the school, and so then I'm like, oh,
and see that makes sense. When I heard about the murders,
(15:57):
it was actually the school guidance counselor that said did
you hear? And I'm like what? But she said to me,
did you hear about Brian? And I'm like, I don't
know what you're talking about. She said, turn on the news.
Speaker 7 (16:09):
And then I was like, oh my god.
Speaker 11 (16:12):
But with that said, I was shocked, but it made sense.
Speaker 3 (16:20):
Let's stop here for a break. We'll be back in
a moment. Friends say it was around the time of
his dismissal from the law enforcement vocation program that Coberger
lost weight and his personality changed. I am just an
absolute shocker.
Speaker 11 (16:40):
Now.
Speaker 3 (16:41):
Casey Arntce was two years ahead of Coburger in high school.
She and her brother Thomas were friends with him, but in.
Speaker 7 (16:48):
High school, dramatic changes washed over Coburger.
Speaker 1 (16:51):
According to several friends.
Speaker 3 (16:53):
She says Coburger went from being overweight to rail Finn
and both Casey and Thomas say they remember Coburger as
a bully.
Speaker 2 (17:00):
Brian Coberger's childhood friend, Thomas, speaking to ABC News describing
the Idaho murder suspect as mean in high school, saying
Brian was eager to be seen as dominant.
Speaker 3 (17:11):
He would just like put me in.
Speaker 12 (17:12):
He would like grapple me and like put me in
headlocks and arm bars and stuff like that.
Speaker 3 (17:18):
Coburger also took up boxing and increasingly styled himself as
a dominant alpha male. Another friend, rich Pasquad, knew the
Coburger family and worked with Hoburger at a pizza shop.
Speaker 13 (17:29):
I met him through some friends and they told me
that he was a little weird and he was a
little socially awkward, I guess you could say, but he
wasn't a bad guy.
Speaker 3 (17:42):
However, Pascual also offered an explanation for the sudden weight
loss and dramatic personality change.
Speaker 13 (17:49):
He did use drugs. That's how I really know him too.
He was a big heroin addict, and so was I.
I got six years clean. Now I work in treatment
and everything, but back then I was using and so
that's how I know for a fact he was using
I've Got High with him a couple times.
Speaker 3 (18:08):
After being kicked out of the Law Enforcement Vocation program
and opting not to return to the HVAC program after
his junior year, Coburger would graduate high school in twenty thirteen,
finishing remotely online. At some point he went to rehab
and got clean. Coburger began taking college classes in psychology
and criminal justice at to Sales University in Pennsylvania. He
(18:32):
graduated from to Sales with both an undergraduate and a
master's degree. Michelle Bulger, a professor at to Sales, described
Coburger as a great writer and a brilliant student. She
would later recommend him for a PhD program. Others say
he was intelligent and nearly obsessive about criminology, but Coberger
was also described as creepy by others in the community.
Speaker 2 (18:54):
Two years ago, a man he believes was Coburger used
to act so creepy to female customers he had to
tell him to stop that.
Speaker 3 (19:00):
Coburger was asking.
Speaker 6 (19:02):
People like where they lived and who they lived with
if they were there alone, just like very very red
flag questions.
Speaker 3 (19:09):
Here again, Stephanie and Jeff, I.
Speaker 9 (19:12):
Think That's one of the scarier parts about this case
is the notion of someone being creepy. That's such a
wide term. It's the person sitting next to you on
an airplane or the person who moves into the apartment
across the hall. We have to listen to our gut.
Speaker 8 (19:28):
Yeah, stuff, I think hindsight is twenty twenty in a
case like this. You know, all the behavior that Brian
exhibited at the time might have not meant anything, But
now that we know what he's being accused of doing,
we can kind of recontextualize it in our heads and
it kind of fits together like a puzzle to potentially
something much more nefarious. But does all of that a
(19:48):
killer make We're not judging jury. It's not up for
us to decide. What we're trying to do is just
break down the facts and let you, the listeners, come
to your own conclusions.
Speaker 9 (19:57):
What if he is innocent, I mean, he had this
point says that he is he is innocent, and he
claims that he had nothing to do with this. And
if that's the case, then this person is really being
tried in the press, and.
Speaker 3 (20:09):
Is that justice?
Speaker 9 (20:10):
Is that okay? But how does this ordinary guy from
the Poconos in New York. Make a leap from being
a student to a mass murderer. That is a huge jump.
And again he wrapped up his school session, hopped in
his white Lantra with his dad and road tripped across
the country.
Speaker 3 (20:27):
Is that possible? Here's reporter an jette Levy of the
Law and Crime Network.
Speaker 2 (20:36):
I think given the circumstances of this case, you have
to kind of look at it and look at whether
or not he was studying these things. If he's indeed
the guy, if he's indeed factually guilty, and he is
the person who committed these crimes. I'm not talking about
the legal standard. I think you have to kind of
look at it and say, what was going on with them?
Why was he studying this? Was this part of some
(20:58):
type of motivation? What was his endgame here? I think
that we also have to just look at it through
another lens, too, like who is this guy? He is
somebody who reportedly had addiction problems in high school. He
had used heroin from everything we've learned through our reporting.
(21:19):
He's also somebody who apparently had a hard time getting
dates and you know, really having close relationships with people.
It sounds like he clashed with some of the people
he was friends with when he was in high school.
So I think there are a number of ways we
have to look at this. If he's ultimately convicted, it could,
(21:43):
you know, a lot of his background could become more relevant.
Let's say that this is something he was planning for
a couple of years. If he's indeed the guy and
he was planning this, maybe there's something there. Maybe this
is why he was doing it, you know, maybe this
is why he was studying criminology and looking at these behaviors.
But everything we learned was too that he said he
(22:05):
wanted to do something like, you know, help rural police
departments and stuff like that. So I don't know how
studying serial killers or you know, how that would factor
into I want to be a mass killer. I don't
know how that would factor into that. Maybe he truly
did want to do work to help small rural police departments,
(22:26):
but I think we'll have to wait and see if
any of this becomes relevant.
Speaker 3 (22:32):
Let's stop here for another break. If Brian Colberger was
once a shy and awkward kid by the time he
arrived in Pullman, Washington for his PhD studies. He was
a totally different man. Benjamin Roberts took several classes with
(22:55):
Coburger at WSU.
Speaker 5 (22:58):
He seemed very comfortable around all. He was fairly quick
to offer his opinion and thoughts, and he was always
participating fairy eagerly in classroom discussions.
Speaker 3 (23:08):
But Roberts also said Coburger had an aura of academic
arrogance about him. He would describe things in the most
complicated way. Roberts also said Colberger liked to brag about
his dating life.
Speaker 5 (23:20):
At one point, he just idly mentioned, you know, I
can go down to a bowl or a club and
just have pretty much any lady I want.
Speaker 3 (23:31):
Other classmates said Coburger made inappropriate comments about the LGBTQ
community and was often condescending towards women. One female doctoral
student accused Coburger of man's planning during a particularly heated argument.
As part of his pH d program, Coburger was a
teaching assistant in Washington State University's Department of Criminal Justice
(23:52):
and Criminology.
Speaker 10 (23:56):
When he came into class, he was very super mentally present.
He would stand up the front look at the ground.
Speaker 3 (24:03):
Hayden Stinchfield said Coberger was disliked by undergraduates because of
his difficult grading, but that changed in November of twenty
twenty two.
Speaker 10 (24:12):
About a month before winter break, when the murders happened.
He started grading everybody just one hundreds, like you pretty
much have you turned something in? You were getting high marked,
and he stopped leaving notes. It was just, you know,
he seemed preoccupied, is what I would have said at
the time, And now obviously he seems like he was
probably pretty preoccupied.
Speaker 3 (24:31):
In early December, a few weeks before his arrest, Coburger
was fired from his teaching assistant position after repeated conduct
of unprofessional behavior. That behavior included fighting with the university
professor and allegations he followed one female student to her car.
(24:53):
More on that next time. For more information on the
case and relevant photos, follow us on Instea at kat
Underscore Studios. The Idaho Masacer is produced by Stephanie Leidecker,
Jeff Shane, Connor Powell, Chris Bargo, Gabriel Castillo, and me
Courtney Armstrong. Editing and sound designed by Jeff Toi. Music
(25:16):
by Jared Aston. The Idaho Masacre is a production of
iHeart Radio and Kat's Studios. For more podcasts like this,
visit the iHeartRadio app, Apple Podcasts, or wherever you listen
to your favorite shows. I'm Diana.
Speaker 12 (25:33):
You may know as Body Moving, My Friend and I
John Green were featured in the Netflix documentary Don't f
with Cats. On our new podcast, True Crimes with John
and Deiana were turning our online investigative skills to some
of the most unexplained, unsolved, and most ignored cases.
Speaker 1 (25:51):
Please say. Thirty three year old bride Again was shot dead,
gunned down in front of his two year old daughter.
Speaker 10 (25:56):
Detectives confirmed that it was a targeted attack.
Speaker 12 (25:59):
It appears and execution style assassination. This is very active,
so we have to be careful.
Speaker 11 (26:05):
I've heard that there's a house that has some bodies
in the basement.
Speaker 2 (26:08):
I knew.
Speaker 11 (26:09):
I just knew the move was wrong.
Speaker 8 (26:11):
Maybe there's something more sinister at play than just one
young girl going missing. If you know something, heard something,
please it's never too late.
Speaker 2 (26:21):
To do the right thing.
Speaker 12 (26:23):
This is True Crimes with John and Deanna.
Speaker 8 (26:25):
The production of KT Studios and iHeartRadio. Justice is something
that takes different shapes or formed
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