September 10, 2025 • 25 mins
Washington State University Police Chief Gary Jenkins recalls his unsettling first encounter with Kohberger during a police internship interview, offering rare insight into his demeanor before the crimes. Newly released documents reveal suspicious injuries, disturbing lies, and Kohberger’s bizarre interactions with investigators following his arrest.
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Speaker 1 (00:03):
Through that conversation, he asked her, what do you think
the worst way to die is?
Speaker 2 (00:09):
The autopsy revealed that she fought like a hellcat to
try to get this guy off, for.
Speaker 1 (00:15):
He thinks he's smarter than these cops and he's going
to figure out what they know prior to this interrogation happening.
Speaker 3 (00:25):
So they set me down and they tell me that
they have identified a lead suspect in the case and
that he is a graduate student at Washington State University.
When I made the connection, the hair on the back
of my neck kind of stood up.
Speaker 4 (00:44):
This is the Idaho Massacre a production of KAT Studios
and iHeartRadio season three episode for the interview, I'm Courtney Armstrong,
a producer at Kat's Studios, with Stephanie Leedeger and Gabriel Castillo.
(01:05):
After Brian Coberger was sentenced to four consecutive life terms
for the brutal November twenty twenty two murders of Madison Mogen,
Kyllie Gonsalvez, Xana Kernodle, and Ethan Chapin, new information has
continued to emerge about his strange and unsettling past, from
(01:25):
massive document dumps to witnesses stepping forward with stories to
former acquaintances describing their encounters with him. Each new detail
is helping to fill in the gaps and paint a
more clear, haunting picture of who this man really is.
Washington State University police chief Gary Jenkins cross paths with
Brian Coberger before his name made headlines. His first encounter
(01:50):
with Brian Coberger, long before the arrest, is as unexpected
as it is chilling. Here's Gary Jenkins filling us in
on his crew and his bizarre meeting with one of
Idaho's most notorious killers. He's joined by our producer Alison Bankston.
Speaker 3 (02:10):
I started my law enforcement crew in southern California. I
worked for thirty three years in the La County area,
and then in twenty ten, I was hired as the
police chief for the city of Pullman, Washington, where Washington
State University is located. I worked as the police chief
for the City of Pollman police Department for twelve years,
and then I was hired as a police chief at
(02:31):
Washington State University three years ago. We are really a
tight knit community here. We're somewhat isolated. We're about eight
miles from Moscow, Idaho, so we're pretty close in Our
communities work together a lot. But besides that, the next
closest medium sized city is Spokane, Washington, an hour and
a half away, So we really depend on each other
(02:53):
a lot, and the communities really worked together well a
lot out of necessity.
Speaker 5 (03:00):
How did you first find out what happened on November thirteenth,
twenty twenty two. Can you take me back to that
day and when you got the call and what you
were first initially thinking?
Speaker 3 (03:09):
Well, my assistant chief messaged me and said that they
heard that Moscow had responded to a location in their
city and they had four people that were dead, and
we didn't know anymore beyond that. We didn't know if
it was an accidental from carbon monoxide or what had happened.
And then I did hear that they did announce that
(03:30):
it was a homicide, quadruple homicide. So I got on
the phone and called Chief Fry at Moscow PD his
cell phone and offered any kind of assistance that our
department could give him. And he was actually on his
way back to the city. He was out of town,
but he was driving back to Moscow, and he said
thank me for the offer, and that he once he
(03:51):
got there and assessed what was going on. He'd let
me know if he needed any help, and turned out
didn't call us back. They ended up calling in a
lot of resources from Idaho. Of course they're across the
state line from us from Washington. But that's what happened
on that day, and then University of Idaho sent out
what they call a vandal alert to alert the campus
what had happened. And then we did the same thing
(04:13):
on Washington State University campus. We sent out an alert
no define everyone that there had been a homicide in
Moscow and the person that had committed the crimes was
still on the loose.
Speaker 5 (04:24):
And I think of people in your position, you know,
being the chief of police at WSU, when this huge
college related murders are going on. That's so much pressure,
and I'm sure you had a lot of people coming
to you looking for answers. How do you keep cool
in situations like that and how do you keep emotions
down when there's something that's scary going on.
Speaker 3 (04:44):
There's a lot of things that we have to get
done quickly, and so we get pretty focused on those
details and trying to get that done. And so I
think that that kind of keeps our mind, you know,
focused in the right direction, and we definitely did a
lot of communication with our studenttudents on campus, along with
our Dina Students' Office and our counseling and psychological services.
(05:08):
We worked at trying to keep our campus calm. We
stepped up our patrols to increase our police visibility on campus,
and this case was particularly challenging because Moscow PD was
very tight lit on the information that they were sharing
and so we could only pass along what we would
hear from them. So we would just try to communicate
(05:30):
that information as well as just trying to give our
campus confidence that we were keeping an eye on things
and that we were doing everything that we can to
keep our campus safe.
Speaker 4 (05:45):
Thirty six days after the murder, Chief Jenkins gets an
update on the status of the investigation from Moscow Police
Chief James Frye.
Speaker 3 (05:57):
The Chief fry sent me a text message on December
and nineteenth asking if I could meet him at the
Moscow Police Department the next morning, and I thought it
was just going to be another law enforcement briefing. It'd
held a couple of law enforcement briefings previously, and so
I'd met him the next morning, and it was just
me meeting him there, and so I thought that was
(06:18):
kind of unusual. And then he took me upstairs and
we went into a room that had the entire investigative
team there but thirty plus people. So I knew right
away that there was something something significant happening and had
some kind of connection, likely to Washington State University. So
they sent me down and they tell me that they
have identified a lead suspect in the case and that
(06:41):
he is a graduate student at Washington State University living
in graduate student housing on campus. The name sounded familiar
to me. When I made the connection, you know, the
hair on the back of my neck stood up. They
tell me that they have identified a lead suspect in
the case and his name is Brian Coberger, not a
(07:03):
very common name. I recalled hearing it before, and it
took me about thirty seconds early to make the connection
that I had interviewed him previously when I worked at
the Pullman Police Department.
Speaker 4 (07:17):
In April of twenty twenty, two months before the murders,
Brian Coberger was still wrapping up his master's degree at
the Sales University and getting ready to start his PhD program.
At Washington State University. Around that time, he submitted an
application for an internship at the Pullman Police Department.
Speaker 3 (07:40):
When I was police chief at the City of Pullman,
we had a program that we worked with the Washington
State University Criminal Justice Program where a PhD student would
spend three years as a research assistant at the police department.
You know, at the time, we were having wanted some
research done on having a our own municipal court there
(08:01):
in Pullman, which we did not have. We were using
the county, So that was some of the research we
wanted done, and just also on looking at crime trends
and seeing if we needed to reallocate resources to different
places based on current crime trends and those types of things.
I was given four applications from Washington State Criminal Justice Program,
(08:26):
so I interviewed each of the four applicants for about
thirty minutes each. Two main things I was looking for
from those applicants. One was someone who was interested not
just in theoretical research, but really practical, actionable research that
we could implement in our department to make us more effective.
And then the other element I was looking for was
someone who had the ability to develop trust and rapport
(08:50):
with my staff. Someone coming in to a law enforcement
environment that's not law enforcement sometimes that's a very difficult
situation to develop that that trust and report. I was asking,
you know, what kind of research they've done already, what
their particular interests are, you know, what they're looking to
get out of the program, those types of things. And
(09:11):
so when I interviewed Brian Coberger, he answered the questions. Okay.
It was a little bit robotic, I think, and I
kind of picked up that he didn't have a lot
of that much interest and necessary the type of research
we were looking for. Again, I think it was more theoretical.
I know, he had a lot of interest in the
mind of criminals and why they do what they do
(09:34):
and how they're feeling when they do what they do,
And I don't know that that would have been really
beneficial to our department.
Speaker 5 (09:42):
Were you surprised he even applied, like I know what,
to sales. He was kind of really focused in on
the criminal mind, and it seems like this internship is
totally different. Why would he apply for an internship that
wasn't really in his wheelhouse?
Speaker 3 (09:54):
I think really he wanted to see how police departments
operate I think he wanted to get that experience work
with the law enforcement agency, you know, just to add
to his resume. So it was a little bit out
of what his interest seemed to be. At the end
of the thirty minutes, I know, my impressions were that
he wasn't real personable, He didn't have a real fluid
(10:16):
way of conversation. He spoke with some hesitation, he was
very awkward, didn't seem to have very refined social skills,
and so at the end of it, I just didn't
feel like he would be able to develop that trust
with my staff to be an effective researcher.
Speaker 5 (10:34):
Finding out what he did. Would you ever think, oh,
did he apply to this internship to get to save himself?
You know, Brian Coper, here he is applying to a
big internship at a police station, not really interested in
the stuff that you're offering. Did you ever think that
maybe he applied to some sort of cover up or
to get intel.
Speaker 3 (10:52):
Yeah, I think that's definitely possible. I mean, I don't
think we'll ever know when he planned these crimes, but
if it was something that maybe he had been thinking about,
that's very possible that he was trying to get into
the police department to potentially have access to confidential information
or just to learn more about practices and protocols of
(11:15):
law enforcement that would help him commit the quote perfect crime.
And so yes, I did think about that, and more
thought about that, the more I was glad that I
decided not to select him.
Speaker 4 (11:30):
After Washington State University Police Chief Gary Jenkins realized he'd
met Brian Coburger before, he didn't hesitate. He turned to
Moscow Police Chief James Fry and told him exactly what
he knew. Ten days later, officers from Washington State University
joined the Idaho State Police in a coordinated search of
(11:51):
Coburger's campus apartment and his office.
Speaker 3 (12:00):
Really, nothing of any significance was recovered from either location.
His apartment, my my assistant chief actually oversaw that warrant service,
and she reported back to me that there was very
little in his apartment at the time. In fact, it
looked like that maybe someone was or that Coburger was
not planning to come back to that apartment.
Speaker 5 (12:21):
Yeah, and I heard too that his shower curtain was missing,
and there's only a few things of clothing there. And
I know some people think that the shower curtain could
have been involved in some way.
Speaker 3 (12:30):
Yeah, I mean that that could have been. It could
have been that there were some clothing or some evidence
that he may be wrapped up in there and he
took a shower, and there could have been blood or
DNA on that, and so it's, you know, very likely
that that was disposed of somewhere to avoid any type
of leaving any type of evidence.
Speaker 4 (12:53):
Let's stop here for a break. We'll be back in
a moment. We've been exploring Brian Coberger's time at Washington
State University, starting with a strange interview he had with
Chief Gary Jenkins while applying for an internship at the
(13:15):
Pullman Police Department. But his unusual behavior on campus did
not end there. Crime Analyst's Body move in, an expert
in analyzing complex data, is here to walk us through
more of the recently released documents from the massive evidence
dump following Coburger's sentencing to life in prison. This time,
we're zeroing in on some of the records detailing his
(13:37):
behavior at WSU. Here's body joined by our producer Alison Bankston.
Speaker 5 (13:46):
So let's talk about that interview with his fellow teaching assistant,
because honestly, I'm floored by that.
Speaker 1 (13:52):
That one is so in that document in its entirely
is so interesting to me. So in this document, it's
an interview with somebody that worked with Brian Coberger at WSU.
It talks about Brian as a TA assistant and his
relationship with Brian, and he goes on to say that
somewhere in October or November, he couldn't remember, he sees
(14:14):
scratches on Brian's face and his knuckles were red. When
he asked Brian Coberger what happened? What happened to you?
Brian said he was in a car accident, right, and.
Speaker 5 (14:25):
His fellow teaching assistant also says that the scratches looked
like they were from fingernails. I'm no expert, but what
car crash causes a scratch like that?
Speaker 4 (14:34):
We as forensic expert Joseph Scott Morgan about the validity
of Brian Coberger's excuse for the scratches on his face
shortly after the murders.
Speaker 2 (14:45):
Yeah, you do get scratches in a car accident, but
you know what you get more of, You get more
blunt force trauma. The idea that you would merely get
scratches in a location, and that's odd to say. My
money would be on Kaylee who made scratches, because the
autopsy revealed that she fought like a hell cat to
(15:07):
try to get this guy off of her, right, And.
Speaker 5 (15:10):
I feel like he would have a lot more injuries
if it truly was a car accident.
Speaker 2 (15:14):
It's just so ridiculous, you know, when you think about it,
because I won't say, well, where else are you're injured?
And do you need a ride? Can I give you
a rod somewhere? Because obviously, if you've been in a
car accident, your car must be damaged. Well, guess what,
there's no indication this car was damaged anyway.
Speaker 5 (15:31):
Yeah. I feel like, again this goes back to him
being such a strange criminology student because his mistakes are
so stupid. But he could have said that a cat
scratched him and it would have been way more unbelievable.
Speaker 2 (15:41):
Yeah, I would have bought that. Yeah, God, this cat,
you know I love cats. Straight cat that came up
to the door. I got a camp tunefish in the apartment.
I went to feed it and now I was trying
to pet it while I was eating, and thing attacked me. Okay,
that sounds plausible to me. Car accident.
Speaker 4 (15:59):
Not here again, body move in with producer Alison Bankston.
Speaker 1 (16:09):
And then we find out that Brian told him the
TA assistant he was flying home from Washington to Pennsylvania,
when in fact we knew he drove and he was
already there when he told his friend this. He's just
he's lying. He's a lying liar.
Speaker 4 (16:31):
And the newly released documents reveal even more troubling details
about Brian Coberger's initial arrest in his home state of Pennsylvania,
the moment he first came face to face with investigators
who had been tracking him for weeks. One of interest
to us an unsettling report written by Moscow Police Corporal
Brett Payne about Coburger's interview after his arrest.
Speaker 1 (16:55):
And with Brett Payin is ISP detective Sergeant Gilbertson, and
he's with the Idaho State Police. And additional to that,
FBI special agent surely right.
Speaker 5 (17:06):
And what was so weird to me was that he
starts off the interview saying that Sergeant Gilbertson looks familiar,
which I don't know, I mean, I just it kind
of seems like a super stupid move on his part.
Speaker 1 (17:15):
It indicates he's been watching news about this case, right,
because Detective Gilberton is of course with the Idaho State Police,
and of course he would be talking about this in
the media or at these press conferences, you know, and
Brian Coberger is watching these, so that's of course why
he says this, Oh yeah, you do look familiar. What
a dummy.
Speaker 5 (17:33):
Yeah, and then he starts implying that he really admires
law enforcement, has a great admiration for everything these officers
are doing.
Speaker 1 (17:39):
He's really kind of buttering them up, like I'm one
of you. They're asking about his studies and he's like, oh,
you guys already probably know all this, you know, implying
that you know, they went to criminology school too, And
of course that's not true. He's very trying to make
himself like one of them. Right, they're talking about sports,
they're talking about religion. Brian Coberger says that he was
(17:59):
raised Christian, and you know, he was basically having doubts
when he's you know, confronted with the beauty of this world.
Like it's so weird. It's such a weird conversation.
Speaker 5 (18:09):
I know, I just think it's odd that he brought
up because again he didn't have to small talks usually,
like you know, they talked a little bit about he said, oh,
I don't follow WSU footballer because I'm a baseball fan.
But then to bring up religion out of nowhere. It's
because he's trying to humanize himself. But then he says,
you know, but I have doubts. He's like, oddly, he
kind of goes in this weird circle with it. What
(18:29):
else does he say in this interview.
Speaker 1 (18:31):
Coburger then spoke about how he became interested in criminal
justice and stated he thought about being a police officer,
but did not want to make the commitment unless he
was absolutely sure. Interesting because he applied to the Pullman
Police Department and he's telling these police officers, Oh, I
thought about being a cop, but I just, you know,
I'm not sure about the commitment. What do you mean
(18:51):
the commitment. It's a job. If you don't like it,
you quit. What commitment are talking about? It's very, very weird. Again,
he's trying to, like I think, ingratiate himself into this
law enforcement family, which he is no part of, by
the way, but he's trying to like insert himself, like
I'm just like you. I'm one of you exactly. Yeah.
Speaker 5 (19:08):
And earlier we were talking with WSU Police Chief Gary
Jenkins about his interview with Brian Coburger, and you know,
he said he didn't trust him at all to blend
in with his staff, and you know, rightfully so. And
here he is putting on what seems like some crazy
performance with these officers in Pennsylvania, probably very untrustworthy. What
does he do after this in this interview?
Speaker 1 (19:28):
Coberger then stated he understood why they were engaging in
small talk, but it would appreciate it if we explained
to him why what he was doing there. And the
detective goes, well, why do you think you're here? And
Brian Coberger said he didn't know. Detective Gilbertson ask Coburger
if he watched the news. Coberger said, I watched the news.
Detective Gilbertson then asked Coberger why he thought I looked familiar.
(19:50):
So why do you think I look familiar? Cogerger said
he wasn't sure and stated I had a familiar face
and I looked like someone he used to know. Detective
Gilbertson then said we were there because of what happened
in November, just off the University of Idaho campus, Detective
Gilbertson asked Coburger if he knew what was what that was,
to which Coogerber replied, of course. When prompted to elaborate,
(20:12):
Coberger said, it was the incident we had been investigating
for how long has it been?
Speaker 5 (20:16):
Okay? It is insane to me that he says how
long has it been? You know? It almost kind of
seems like a pride thing to me. I mean, of
course I'm no expert, but there's such a certain cockiness
to it, just from the way that I'm reading it. Right.
Speaker 1 (20:29):
Detective Gilbertson again stated we were investigating the homicides of
four students and that we had questions and things we'd
hoped Coburger would help understand. So this conversation is interesting
because Coburger is it okay if we engage in small talk,
and that cops are like, yeah, they start engaging in
small talk, and Brian's getting a patient, right, He's hoping
something's going to slip in the small talk. I think
(20:52):
he's trying to size up these cops. He thinks he's
smarter than these cops, and he's going to figure out
what they know prior to this entire game happening, right,
that's what I think. Coburger then asked where his parents
were and where his dog was. Coburger re engaged again
and asked what questions we would have for him. Detective
Gilbertson then asked Coburger again if he understood his rights
(21:14):
and asked specifically what Coburger wished. Coburger asked what spipecifically
he wanted to talk to him about. So they're playing
this game right now. Coburger's asked for a lawyer. So
Detective Gilbertson's like, okay, interviews over, but Coberger keeps re engaging, right,
So the Detective's like, listen, you understand your rights, right,
what do you want? Coburger asks specifically what we wanted
(21:36):
to talk to him about, and the reason I told
Coberger he invoked his fitth Amendment rights at that moment
and we were no longer going to be asking him
any further questions. So Coburger he's fishing. He's like trying
to find out what they've got.
Speaker 4 (21:48):
It's interesting. Let's stop here for a break. We'll be
back in a moment. We've been digging through some of
the most revealing files from the Moscow Police Department's massive
(22:08):
document release, focusing specifically on those that shed light on
the strange and sometimes bizarre behaviors of convicted killer Brian
Coberger in the days and weeks after the murders. In
these pages, we see how Coberger attempted to explain away
suspicious injuries, from a bloody knuckle to scratches on his face,
(22:31):
telling his fellow teaching assistant that it came from a
car accident. This excuse now reads as obviously false. We
also get a glimpse into his first formal interactions with
investigators following his December thirtieth, twenty twenty two arrest in Pennsylvania,
moments that offer a window into his state of mind
(22:53):
as the case closed in around him. Here again to
discuss one more document of interest is crime List Body Movin.
Speaker 1 (23:03):
In these documents, there's a there's a tender reference and
that a woman met Brian Coberger online and that he
was in at WSU and she was in Pennsylvania and
she was having a hard time meeting people, so she
expanded her range and she ended up meeting Brian Coberger.
He and her struck up a conversation and in their
small talk, we're talking about like their favorite movies, you know,
(23:26):
things that you would talk to people when you're first
getting to know someone, and they the genre switched to
horror movies. And through that conversation, he asked her, you
know what, what do you think the worst way to
die is? And she said, probably from like a knife,
that would be awful, and he said, oh, something like
a k bar and she stopped talking to him shortly
(23:49):
after that because the conversation turned pretty dark. We learned
in a later document, however, the cops followed up with her,
and she couldn't, you know, provide them any that she
had talked to anybody at WSU. She didn't have access
to her tender messages anymore, so we don't get any
clarification on that. And it could be just noise, it
(24:10):
could be totally irrelevant, but it's an interesting talking point. Creepy, creepy,
creepy creepy.
Speaker 4 (24:18):
Throughout this season, we'll keep digging into these documents piece
by piece to uncover what they reveal, what they suggest,
and what they can tell us about how Brian Coberger
took four innocent lives. Next Time, behavior expert Robin Drake
will help us unpack documents detailing Coburger's behavior before and
(24:39):
after the murders and the personality traits that may have
driven him, because sometimes the paper trail reveals more than
the killer intended. More on that next time. For more
information on the case and relevant photos, follow us on
Instagram at kat Underscore Studios. The Idaho Massacre is produced
(25:03):
by Stephanie Leideker, Alison Bankston, Gabriel Castillo, and me Courtney Armstrong.
Editing and sound designed by Jeff Trois. Music by Jared Aston.
The Idaho Masacre is a production of Katie's Studios and iHeartRadio.
For more podcasts like this, visit the iHeartRadio app, Apple Podcasts,
(25:24):
or wherever you listen to your favorite shows.
Through that conversation, he asked her, what do you think
the worst way to die is?
Speaker 2 (00:09):
The autopsy revealed that she fought like a hellcat to
try to get this guy off, for.
Speaker 1 (00:15):
He thinks he's smarter than these cops and he's going
to figure out what they know prior to this interrogation happening.
Speaker 3 (00:25):
So they set me down and they tell me that
they have identified a lead suspect in the case and
that he is a graduate student at Washington State University.
When I made the connection, the hair on the back
of my neck kind of stood up.
Speaker 4 (00:44):
This is the Idaho Massacre a production of KAT Studios
and iHeartRadio season three episode for the interview, I'm Courtney Armstrong,
a producer at Kat's Studios, with Stephanie Leedeger and Gabriel Castillo.
(01:05):
After Brian Coberger was sentenced to four consecutive life terms
for the brutal November twenty twenty two murders of Madison Mogen,
Kyllie Gonsalvez, Xana Kernodle, and Ethan Chapin, new information has
continued to emerge about his strange and unsettling past, from
(01:25):
massive document dumps to witnesses stepping forward with stories to
former acquaintances describing their encounters with him. Each new detail
is helping to fill in the gaps and paint a
more clear, haunting picture of who this man really is.
Washington State University police chief Gary Jenkins cross paths with
Brian Coberger before his name made headlines. His first encounter
(01:50):
with Brian Coberger, long before the arrest, is as unexpected
as it is chilling. Here's Gary Jenkins filling us in
on his crew and his bizarre meeting with one of
Idaho's most notorious killers. He's joined by our producer Alison Bankston.
Speaker 3 (02:10):
I started my law enforcement crew in southern California. I
worked for thirty three years in the La County area,
and then in twenty ten, I was hired as the
police chief for the city of Pullman, Washington, where Washington
State University is located. I worked as the police chief
for the City of Pollman police Department for twelve years,
and then I was hired as a police chief at
(02:31):
Washington State University three years ago. We are really a
tight knit community here. We're somewhat isolated. We're about eight
miles from Moscow, Idaho, so we're pretty close in Our
communities work together a lot. But besides that, the next
closest medium sized city is Spokane, Washington, an hour and
a half away, So we really depend on each other
(02:53):
a lot, and the communities really worked together well a
lot out of necessity.
Speaker 5 (03:00):
How did you first find out what happened on November thirteenth,
twenty twenty two. Can you take me back to that
day and when you got the call and what you
were first initially thinking?
Speaker 3 (03:09):
Well, my assistant chief messaged me and said that they
heard that Moscow had responded to a location in their
city and they had four people that were dead, and
we didn't know anymore beyond that. We didn't know if
it was an accidental from carbon monoxide or what had happened.
And then I did hear that they did announce that
(03:30):
it was a homicide, quadruple homicide. So I got on
the phone and called Chief Fry at Moscow PD his
cell phone and offered any kind of assistance that our
department could give him. And he was actually on his
way back to the city. He was out of town,
but he was driving back to Moscow, and he said
thank me for the offer, and that he once he
(03:51):
got there and assessed what was going on. He'd let
me know if he needed any help, and turned out
didn't call us back. They ended up calling in a
lot of resources from Idaho. Of course they're across the
state line from us from Washington. But that's what happened
on that day, and then University of Idaho sent out
what they call a vandal alert to alert the campus
what had happened. And then we did the same thing
(04:13):
on Washington State University campus. We sent out an alert
no define everyone that there had been a homicide in
Moscow and the person that had committed the crimes was
still on the loose.
Speaker 5 (04:24):
And I think of people in your position, you know,
being the chief of police at WSU, when this huge
college related murders are going on. That's so much pressure,
and I'm sure you had a lot of people coming
to you looking for answers. How do you keep cool
in situations like that and how do you keep emotions
down when there's something that's scary going on.
Speaker 3 (04:44):
There's a lot of things that we have to get
done quickly, and so we get pretty focused on those
details and trying to get that done. And so I
think that that kind of keeps our mind, you know,
focused in the right direction, and we definitely did a
lot of communication with our studenttudents on campus, along with
our Dina Students' Office and our counseling and psychological services.
(05:08):
We worked at trying to keep our campus calm. We
stepped up our patrols to increase our police visibility on campus,
and this case was particularly challenging because Moscow PD was
very tight lit on the information that they were sharing
and so we could only pass along what we would
hear from them. So we would just try to communicate
(05:30):
that information as well as just trying to give our
campus confidence that we were keeping an eye on things
and that we were doing everything that we can to
keep our campus safe.
Speaker 4 (05:45):
Thirty six days after the murder, Chief Jenkins gets an
update on the status of the investigation from Moscow Police
Chief James Frye.
Speaker 3 (05:57):
The Chief fry sent me a text message on December
and nineteenth asking if I could meet him at the
Moscow Police Department the next morning, and I thought it
was just going to be another law enforcement briefing. It'd
held a couple of law enforcement briefings previously, and so
I'd met him the next morning, and it was just
me meeting him there, and so I thought that was
(06:18):
kind of unusual. And then he took me upstairs and
we went into a room that had the entire investigative
team there but thirty plus people. So I knew right
away that there was something something significant happening and had
some kind of connection, likely to Washington State University. So
they sent me down and they tell me that they
have identified a lead suspect in the case and that
(06:41):
he is a graduate student at Washington State University living
in graduate student housing on campus. The name sounded familiar
to me. When I made the connection, you know, the
hair on the back of my neck stood up. They
tell me that they have identified a lead suspect in
the case and his name is Brian Coberger, not a
(07:03):
very common name. I recalled hearing it before, and it
took me about thirty seconds early to make the connection
that I had interviewed him previously when I worked at
the Pullman Police Department.
Speaker 4 (07:17):
In April of twenty twenty, two months before the murders,
Brian Coberger was still wrapping up his master's degree at
the Sales University and getting ready to start his PhD program.
At Washington State University. Around that time, he submitted an
application for an internship at the Pullman Police Department.
Speaker 3 (07:40):
When I was police chief at the City of Pullman,
we had a program that we worked with the Washington
State University Criminal Justice Program where a PhD student would
spend three years as a research assistant at the police department.
You know, at the time, we were having wanted some
research done on having a our own municipal court there
(08:01):
in Pullman, which we did not have. We were using
the county, So that was some of the research we
wanted done, and just also on looking at crime trends
and seeing if we needed to reallocate resources to different
places based on current crime trends and those types of things.
I was given four applications from Washington State Criminal Justice Program,
(08:26):
so I interviewed each of the four applicants for about
thirty minutes each. Two main things I was looking for
from those applicants. One was someone who was interested not
just in theoretical research, but really practical, actionable research that
we could implement in our department to make us more effective.
And then the other element I was looking for was
someone who had the ability to develop trust and rapport
(08:50):
with my staff. Someone coming in to a law enforcement
environment that's not law enforcement sometimes that's a very difficult
situation to develop that that trust and report. I was asking,
you know, what kind of research they've done already, what
their particular interests are, you know, what they're looking to
get out of the program, those types of things. And
(09:11):
so when I interviewed Brian Coberger, he answered the questions. Okay.
It was a little bit robotic, I think, and I
kind of picked up that he didn't have a lot
of that much interest and necessary the type of research
we were looking for. Again, I think it was more theoretical.
I know, he had a lot of interest in the
mind of criminals and why they do what they do
(09:34):
and how they're feeling when they do what they do,
And I don't know that that would have been really
beneficial to our department.
Speaker 5 (09:42):
Were you surprised he even applied, like I know what,
to sales. He was kind of really focused in on
the criminal mind, and it seems like this internship is
totally different. Why would he apply for an internship that
wasn't really in his wheelhouse?
Speaker 3 (09:54):
I think really he wanted to see how police departments
operate I think he wanted to get that experience work
with the law enforcement agency, you know, just to add
to his resume. So it was a little bit out
of what his interest seemed to be. At the end
of the thirty minutes, I know, my impressions were that
he wasn't real personable, He didn't have a real fluid
(10:16):
way of conversation. He spoke with some hesitation, he was
very awkward, didn't seem to have very refined social skills,
and so at the end of it, I just didn't
feel like he would be able to develop that trust
with my staff to be an effective researcher.
Speaker 5 (10:34):
Finding out what he did. Would you ever think, oh,
did he apply to this internship to get to save himself?
You know, Brian Coper, here he is applying to a
big internship at a police station, not really interested in
the stuff that you're offering. Did you ever think that
maybe he applied to some sort of cover up or
to get intel.
Speaker 3 (10:52):
Yeah, I think that's definitely possible. I mean, I don't
think we'll ever know when he planned these crimes, but
if it was something that maybe he had been thinking about,
that's very possible that he was trying to get into
the police department to potentially have access to confidential information
or just to learn more about practices and protocols of
(11:15):
law enforcement that would help him commit the quote perfect crime.
And so yes, I did think about that, and more
thought about that, the more I was glad that I
decided not to select him.
Speaker 4 (11:30):
After Washington State University Police Chief Gary Jenkins realized he'd
met Brian Coburger before, he didn't hesitate. He turned to
Moscow Police Chief James Fry and told him exactly what
he knew. Ten days later, officers from Washington State University
joined the Idaho State Police in a coordinated search of
(11:51):
Coburger's campus apartment and his office.
Speaker 3 (12:00):
Really, nothing of any significance was recovered from either location.
His apartment, my my assistant chief actually oversaw that warrant service,
and she reported back to me that there was very
little in his apartment at the time. In fact, it
looked like that maybe someone was or that Coburger was
not planning to come back to that apartment.
Speaker 5 (12:21):
Yeah, and I heard too that his shower curtain was missing,
and there's only a few things of clothing there. And
I know some people think that the shower curtain could
have been involved in some way.
Speaker 3 (12:30):
Yeah, I mean that that could have been. It could
have been that there were some clothing or some evidence
that he may be wrapped up in there and he
took a shower, and there could have been blood or
DNA on that, and so it's, you know, very likely
that that was disposed of somewhere to avoid any type
of leaving any type of evidence.
Speaker 4 (12:53):
Let's stop here for a break. We'll be back in
a moment. We've been exploring Brian Coberger's time at Washington
State University, starting with a strange interview he had with
Chief Gary Jenkins while applying for an internship at the
(13:15):
Pullman Police Department. But his unusual behavior on campus did
not end there. Crime Analyst's Body move in, an expert
in analyzing complex data, is here to walk us through
more of the recently released documents from the massive evidence
dump following Coburger's sentencing to life in prison. This time,
we're zeroing in on some of the records detailing his
(13:37):
behavior at WSU. Here's body joined by our producer Alison Bankston.
Speaker 5 (13:46):
So let's talk about that interview with his fellow teaching assistant,
because honestly, I'm floored by that.
Speaker 1 (13:52):
That one is so in that document in its entirely
is so interesting to me. So in this document, it's
an interview with somebody that worked with Brian Coberger at WSU.
It talks about Brian as a TA assistant and his
relationship with Brian, and he goes on to say that
somewhere in October or November, he couldn't remember, he sees
(14:14):
scratches on Brian's face and his knuckles were red. When
he asked Brian Coberger what happened? What happened to you?
Brian said he was in a car accident, right, and.
Speaker 5 (14:25):
His fellow teaching assistant also says that the scratches looked
like they were from fingernails. I'm no expert, but what
car crash causes a scratch like that?
Speaker 4 (14:34):
We as forensic expert Joseph Scott Morgan about the validity
of Brian Coberger's excuse for the scratches on his face
shortly after the murders.
Speaker 2 (14:45):
Yeah, you do get scratches in a car accident, but
you know what you get more of, You get more
blunt force trauma. The idea that you would merely get
scratches in a location, and that's odd to say. My
money would be on Kaylee who made scratches, because the
autopsy revealed that she fought like a hell cat to
(15:07):
try to get this guy off of her, right, And.
Speaker 5 (15:10):
I feel like he would have a lot more injuries
if it truly was a car accident.
Speaker 2 (15:14):
It's just so ridiculous, you know, when you think about it,
because I won't say, well, where else are you're injured?
And do you need a ride? Can I give you
a rod somewhere? Because obviously, if you've been in a
car accident, your car must be damaged. Well, guess what,
there's no indication this car was damaged anyway.
Speaker 5 (15:31):
Yeah. I feel like, again this goes back to him
being such a strange criminology student because his mistakes are
so stupid. But he could have said that a cat
scratched him and it would have been way more unbelievable.
Speaker 2 (15:41):
Yeah, I would have bought that. Yeah, God, this cat,
you know I love cats. Straight cat that came up
to the door. I got a camp tunefish in the apartment.
I went to feed it and now I was trying
to pet it while I was eating, and thing attacked me. Okay,
that sounds plausible to me. Car accident.
Speaker 4 (15:59):
Not here again, body move in with producer Alison Bankston.
Speaker 1 (16:09):
And then we find out that Brian told him the
TA assistant he was flying home from Washington to Pennsylvania,
when in fact we knew he drove and he was
already there when he told his friend this. He's just
he's lying. He's a lying liar.
Speaker 4 (16:31):
And the newly released documents reveal even more troubling details
about Brian Coberger's initial arrest in his home state of Pennsylvania,
the moment he first came face to face with investigators
who had been tracking him for weeks. One of interest
to us an unsettling report written by Moscow Police Corporal
Brett Payne about Coburger's interview after his arrest.
Speaker 1 (16:55):
And with Brett Payin is ISP detective Sergeant Gilbertson, and
he's with the Idaho State Police. And additional to that,
FBI special agent surely right.
Speaker 5 (17:06):
And what was so weird to me was that he
starts off the interview saying that Sergeant Gilbertson looks familiar,
which I don't know, I mean, I just it kind
of seems like a super stupid move on his part.
Speaker 1 (17:15):
It indicates he's been watching news about this case, right,
because Detective Gilberton is of course with the Idaho State Police,
and of course he would be talking about this in
the media or at these press conferences, you know, and
Brian Coberger is watching these, so that's of course why
he says this, Oh yeah, you do look familiar. What
a dummy.
Speaker 5 (17:33):
Yeah, and then he starts implying that he really admires
law enforcement, has a great admiration for everything these officers
are doing.
Speaker 1 (17:39):
He's really kind of buttering them up, like I'm one
of you. They're asking about his studies and he's like, oh,
you guys already probably know all this, you know, implying
that you know, they went to criminology school too, And
of course that's not true. He's very trying to make
himself like one of them. Right, they're talking about sports,
they're talking about religion. Brian Coberger says that he was
(17:59):
raised Christian, and you know, he was basically having doubts
when he's you know, confronted with the beauty of this world.
Like it's so weird. It's such a weird conversation.
Speaker 5 (18:09):
I know, I just think it's odd that he brought
up because again he didn't have to small talks usually,
like you know, they talked a little bit about he said, oh,
I don't follow WSU footballer because I'm a baseball fan.
But then to bring up religion out of nowhere. It's
because he's trying to humanize himself. But then he says,
you know, but I have doubts. He's like, oddly, he
kind of goes in this weird circle with it. What
(18:29):
else does he say in this interview.
Speaker 1 (18:31):
Coburger then spoke about how he became interested in criminal
justice and stated he thought about being a police officer,
but did not want to make the commitment unless he
was absolutely sure. Interesting because he applied to the Pullman
Police Department and he's telling these police officers, Oh, I
thought about being a cop, but I just, you know,
I'm not sure about the commitment. What do you mean
(18:51):
the commitment. It's a job. If you don't like it,
you quit. What commitment are talking about? It's very, very weird. Again,
he's trying to, like I think, ingratiate himself into this
law enforcement family, which he is no part of, by
the way, but he's trying to like insert himself, like
I'm just like you. I'm one of you exactly. Yeah.
Speaker 5 (19:08):
And earlier we were talking with WSU Police Chief Gary
Jenkins about his interview with Brian Coburger, and you know,
he said he didn't trust him at all to blend
in with his staff, and you know, rightfully so. And
here he is putting on what seems like some crazy
performance with these officers in Pennsylvania, probably very untrustworthy. What
does he do after this in this interview?
Speaker 1 (19:28):
Coberger then stated he understood why they were engaging in
small talk, but it would appreciate it if we explained
to him why what he was doing there. And the
detective goes, well, why do you think you're here? And
Brian Coberger said he didn't know. Detective Gilbertson ask Coburger
if he watched the news. Coberger said, I watched the news.
Detective Gilbertson then asked Coberger why he thought I looked familiar.
(19:50):
So why do you think I look familiar? Cogerger said
he wasn't sure and stated I had a familiar face
and I looked like someone he used to know. Detective
Gilbertson then said we were there because of what happened
in November, just off the University of Idaho campus, Detective
Gilbertson asked Coburger if he knew what was what that was,
to which Coogerber replied, of course. When prompted to elaborate,
(20:12):
Coberger said, it was the incident we had been investigating
for how long has it been?
Speaker 5 (20:16):
Okay? It is insane to me that he says how
long has it been? You know? It almost kind of
seems like a pride thing to me. I mean, of
course I'm no expert, but there's such a certain cockiness
to it, just from the way that I'm reading it. Right.
Speaker 1 (20:29):
Detective Gilbertson again stated we were investigating the homicides of
four students and that we had questions and things we'd
hoped Coburger would help understand. So this conversation is interesting
because Coburger is it okay if we engage in small talk,
and that cops are like, yeah, they start engaging in
small talk, and Brian's getting a patient, right, He's hoping
something's going to slip in the small talk. I think
(20:52):
he's trying to size up these cops. He thinks he's
smarter than these cops, and he's going to figure out
what they know prior to this entire game happening, right,
that's what I think. Coburger then asked where his parents
were and where his dog was. Coburger re engaged again
and asked what questions we would have for him. Detective
Gilbertson then asked Coburger again if he understood his rights
(21:14):
and asked specifically what Coburger wished. Coburger asked what spipecifically
he wanted to talk to him about. So they're playing
this game right now. Coburger's asked for a lawyer. So
Detective Gilbertson's like, okay, interviews over, but Coberger keeps re engaging, right,
So the Detective's like, listen, you understand your rights, right,
what do you want? Coburger asks specifically what we wanted
(21:36):
to talk to him about, and the reason I told
Coberger he invoked his fitth Amendment rights at that moment
and we were no longer going to be asking him
any further questions. So Coburger he's fishing. He's like trying
to find out what they've got.
Speaker 4 (21:48):
It's interesting. Let's stop here for a break. We'll be
back in a moment. We've been digging through some of
the most revealing files from the Moscow Police Department's massive
(22:08):
document release, focusing specifically on those that shed light on
the strange and sometimes bizarre behaviors of convicted killer Brian
Coberger in the days and weeks after the murders. In
these pages, we see how Coberger attempted to explain away
suspicious injuries, from a bloody knuckle to scratches on his face,
(22:31):
telling his fellow teaching assistant that it came from a
car accident. This excuse now reads as obviously false. We
also get a glimpse into his first formal interactions with
investigators following his December thirtieth, twenty twenty two arrest in Pennsylvania,
moments that offer a window into his state of mind
(22:53):
as the case closed in around him. Here again to
discuss one more document of interest is crime List Body Movin.
Speaker 1 (23:03):
In these documents, there's a there's a tender reference and
that a woman met Brian Coberger online and that he
was in at WSU and she was in Pennsylvania and
she was having a hard time meeting people, so she
expanded her range and she ended up meeting Brian Coberger.
He and her struck up a conversation and in their
small talk, we're talking about like their favorite movies, you know,
(23:26):
things that you would talk to people when you're first
getting to know someone, and they the genre switched to
horror movies. And through that conversation, he asked her, you
know what, what do you think the worst way to
die is? And she said, probably from like a knife,
that would be awful, and he said, oh, something like
a k bar and she stopped talking to him shortly
(23:49):
after that because the conversation turned pretty dark. We learned
in a later document, however, the cops followed up with her,
and she couldn't, you know, provide them any that she
had talked to anybody at WSU. She didn't have access
to her tender messages anymore, so we don't get any
clarification on that. And it could be just noise, it
(24:10):
could be totally irrelevant, but it's an interesting talking point. Creepy, creepy,
creepy creepy.
Speaker 4 (24:18):
Throughout this season, we'll keep digging into these documents piece
by piece to uncover what they reveal, what they suggest,
and what they can tell us about how Brian Coberger
took four innocent lives. Next Time, behavior expert Robin Drake
will help us unpack documents detailing Coburger's behavior before and
(24:39):
after the murders and the personality traits that may have
driven him, because sometimes the paper trail reveals more than
the killer intended. More on that next time. For more
information on the case and relevant photos, follow us on
Instagram at kat Underscore Studios. The Idaho Massacre is produced
(25:03):
by Stephanie Leideker, Alison Bankston, Gabriel Castillo, and me Courtney Armstrong.
Editing and sound designed by Jeff Trois. Music by Jared Aston.
The Idaho Masacre is a production of Katie's Studios and iHeartRadio.
For more podcasts like this, visit the iHeartRadio app, Apple Podcasts,
(25:24):
or wherever you listen to your favorite shows.
Hosts And Creators
Stephanie Lydecker
Courtney Armstrong
Jeff Shane
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