June 16, 2021 • 35 mins
At the time of the Rhoden murders, Chris Graves was working as a reporter for the Cincinnati Enquirer. As she began covering the story she had no idea what would transpire in Pike County. In episode six, we sit down exclusively with her as she recounts her experience being the only journalist to interview not only the surviving family members, but also the accused. Her perspective gives us a one of a kind insight into the massacre.
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Episode Transcript
Available transcripts are automatically generated. Complete accuracy is not guaranteed.
Speaker 1 (00:00):
Welcome to the piked In Massacre, a production of iHeartRadio
and Katie Studios. A lot of what I do is
I kind of tiptoe into people's tragedy, but I get
to pull my toes out as opposed to the families
who their entire lives are you know, shattered in some cases,
destroyed and decimated, which certainly happened in this case. But
as the story unfolded, and as we started piecing together
(00:23):
things and talking with family members and law enforcement and
people in the community, it just became clear to me.
I guess that this was a special place. This is
the Pikedon Massacre. Returned to Pike County, Season two, Episode six,
The Victims Need a Voice. I'm Courtney Armstrong, a television
producer at Katie Studios with Stephanie Lydecker and Jeff Shane.
(00:48):
The day that eight members of the Rodent family were
found murdered, journalist Chris Graves began covering the story for
the Cincinnati Enquirer. Her insight is crucial, as she spoke
with members of the victims families, the Manli's and Gillies
in the immediate aftermath of the killings. She's the only
journalist to conduct an exclusive interview with the Wagner family.
(01:08):
Just weeks after the Rodents were found dead. Graves sat
down with Jake Wagner, who has now pled guilty, and
his accused mother, Angela. We finally got Chris Graves to
sit down for an interview after many tries. She's speaking
out now because she feels it's imperative that the victims
have a voice in this story. This is highly significant
due to the current gag orders. Here she is speaking
(01:30):
to our producer, also named Chris Graves. When did you
first hear about the Rodent murders? So I first heard
about the crime the friday in which it broke. I
saw a tweet, as I recall, and the first news
of this was that there were people dead in Pike
County and that the police were beginning to investigate. So
(01:54):
my news instincts kicked in, and then I texted our
editors and said, this is our story, this is what
I was thinking. Multiple people found Daddy in more than
one location along Union Hill Road and piked in this morning.
My two PM investigators say they found eight people dead,
seven adult victims and a sixteen year old boy, all
(02:14):
from the road. And family. There is a shooter or
shooters out there somewhere. No one is in custody right now.
Whoever they are, they were trying to possibly wipe out
this entire family. I was trying to get somebody who's
on the ground, who has eyes, who can help you
as a reporter, because when stories like this begin to unfold,
there's just so much you don't know. You don't know anything.
(02:37):
There was a church right across from Union Hill Road,
and I managed to get Reverend Phil Fulton on the phone,
and I, you know, I just started interviewing him. And
during the course of that conversation, I could hear the
Reverend Fulton talking with what appeared to be a family
member who turned out to be Leonard Manly. Leonard is
(02:58):
the father of Dama Many Roden, also the grandfather of
Hannah Roden, Chris Junior, and all of the kids. So
I asked him if he could put Leonard Manley on
the phone, and he did, and that was the first
time I talked with a family member. He was able
to tell me in that conversation who they believed had
(03:22):
been killed, and it was his daughter who found the
first four victims, who made the first nine one one call,
which we've all heard. I was trying to on the phone,
pieced together who all these people, what their relationships were,
Who were they, what were their relationships? It was certainly
(03:43):
horrific and tragic. Pikeden is a small community where everyone
knows everyone, and as you can imagine, the town is
just stunned, cunshock thinking about the whole family. Really, it
is hard to believe. It's such a useless strategy. I
just don't understand why it happened here. It was one
of the things, you know, pinched me, wake me up.
Sometimes I'll wake up, but they'll just feel like a dream.
(04:07):
On April twenty fourth, twenty sixteen, Chris Graves made her
way to Pike County. That church became a place for
both law enforcement and the family to gather, and I
asked the Reverend Fulton if I could attend his church
service on Sunday, which is what I did. I went
(04:27):
down into church and listened to his sermon. What was
that sermon like on that Sunday. It's a small church,
it's not a big church. Pastor Fulton sort of lives
in the community, has lived in the community, sort of
grew up there. He preached there for forty three years.
He talked a lot about this is what a church does.
(04:50):
It's you know, it's a shelter, a refuge, a safe
haven in a dark storm. He talked about the need
for the community to come together and support a family.
There was a lot of singing in turn to the
scriptures or inspiration and solace. He talked a lot about
evil and what evil would descend to do this small
(05:14):
country church just up the way north of RU thirty two,
helping some of the family and friends as they come
to grips with an unspeakable event. Can you describe the
evil community is? I don't think you can really describe.
It is just unbelievable. These things that's happening and going on,
and such tragedies like this, we should not have them.
You were faced with this giant puzzle, a very tragic
(05:35):
puzzle that you were trying to put together so that
others could learn what it possibly happened. Right, You're trying
to find the truth. You're trying to figure out who
is in a relationship with whom and how were these
people connected, what could have happened, where did they work,
what's all the prior criminal history of everybody, and you're
(05:56):
sort of left as a reporter to I mean, really
kind of do knock on doors, talk to people, try
to figure out, you know, talk to the people who
are closest to the information, and begin to sort of
piece stuff together. And what was the result of that.
I think this part of America gets a little bit
of a rap that it's a very and it is.
(06:18):
It is insular, but it's also kind. People were kind
when they maybe shouldn't have been, you know, at least
to me. And I just I really just wanted to
understand the victims. I wanted to understand family. So I
spent hours, sometimes oftentimes interviewing not just family members, but
(06:38):
people who lived, you know, down the road and across
the way, and you know, the librarian, and I mean
all kinds of you know, certainly the sheriff and the
attorney general and all of that. People call it and
we did too, the road in case of the road,
and certainly their family lost the most people, which sounds
(07:01):
horrific even to say. I mean, I just like, there's
no good words for any of this, but I mean
there are three family units. The Manlies, the Gillies, and
the rodents. Hannah Gilly is a little often turned into
a rodent or a footnote, right, we don't get to
explore her world nearly enough. And that's the other thing
(07:23):
I think about Hannah Hazel. That's what they call Hannah
Hazel Gilly to make the distinction between Hannah may Roden.
You know, she became I think, by default a rodent.
So when we first started writing, and I mean I
did think about that, like how we're sort of saying, well,
it's rodents, and I thought, well, she's essentially a rodent.
I mean, she was engaged to Frankie, they were going
(07:45):
to get married, they'd had a child together. She lived
for her son, you know, was really into nursing and
the health of him, and was trying to eat healthy.
She graduated from high school, was totally in love with Frankie.
They were you know, it's everything, building a life. She
(08:05):
saw herself as a road And having said that, she's
still a Gilly. And so this amount of devastation to
essentially three families, all of whom live in close proximity
to each other, and their families or have been in
various stages differently intertwined, and the ripple effect of that
(08:26):
and the children, which is what hit me the hardest.
I'm a mother of two. And the idea that there
were three very small children at the crime scenes and
they were found alive and physically unharmed resonated with me.
Ohio Attorney General Mike Dwine giving an update. Three children
did survive, a four day old, a six month old,
(08:49):
and a three year old. I think what makes this
particularly grizzly is the fact that you have these children
involved who obviously were there when executions took place. You know, heartbreaking.
I mean, you know the one mom apparently was killed
with the four day old right there. I mean, it's just,
you know, which it's just hard to believe. Then I
(09:12):
went and did my first column, and I just went
driving Pike County. It's pretty, rolling hills, It's absolutely beautiful,
and it was starting to warm up. Things were beginning
to bloom. There were fields of yellow and purple, and
I mean, it's just it was just absolutely beautiful. All
(09:33):
of the things that someone who looks for ways in
which to tell stories you look for, right, I mean,
as this county was going through its spring rebirth, it
struck me that this tragedy was rippling across sort of
these beautiful fields of yellow flowers, and I just could
not get those three children out of my head. And
(09:56):
I just started looking out and I started to cry,
I truthfully, and sort of became, I don't know, overwhelmed,
but I I came around or down a hill and
I saw a house just sort of out on its own, with,
you know, a couple of rocking chairs on the porch,
(10:16):
and you know, they were just rocking, but nobody was
in them. And I sort of started thinking about this
lullaby It's called the Appalachian Lullaby, and it just it
just started going through my head and I was remembering
pieces of it, and I just couldn't help but think
about those children and who would rock them to sleep,
(10:39):
and who would hold them tight, and who, you know,
who would sing them lullabies to sleep. And I thought,
that's what this is about. This was more than just
a homicide or a multiple homicide or a mask killing.
It's about who takes care of those babies and what
in the world happened here, and those children's lives will
(11:02):
never be the same. These are families, so many lives affected,
and the ripple effects of that which will go on
for decades and generations. They now are and will forever
be bound by this horrible tragedy. But both their strength
(11:23):
and their resilience and their resolve and their pain, I mean,
it's incredible to me. I don't, I don't. I'm struggling
with words because I don't know the right words. Truthfully,
it's it's heartbreaking and um and just awe inspiring. Somehow
they're survivors. So that's what I wrote about. Nobody can
(11:49):
imagine what this family has been through. Only the other families,
the Manlies, the Ali's, those families are suffering as much
as we are. They only know what we are all
going through every day we live with this. It never
(12:14):
goes away. I can tell you that even though it's
been extremely hard, that I know our family will never stop.
We will never give up. We will never give up
trying to find and bring the people whoever did this
(12:40):
to justice. We will not give up. Can you describe
your first impression to the Wagner's. My first interview with
Jake Wagner and his mom, Angela was on May thirty first,
twenty sixteen. You know, so, what is that six weeks
after the homicides. I had talked with other people who said, oh,
(13:03):
they probably aren't going to talk to you. They're pretty
to themselves. But I knew that Jake and Hannah had
been on a relationship and had had shared a child.
Said well, well, you know, we'll go try. I showed up,
and he and his mom agreed to the interview. He
and Angela outside their home, which was searched two years later.
(13:24):
We sat outside on a patio area and talked for
I don't know, two and a half hours. Maybe there
were children's toys everywhere, like those little pretend little cars
that they drive that are motorized, or little tikes, you know,
the slides and all of that. It seemed like, Wow,
(13:44):
here's a family who really digs their kids and or
grandkids in Angela's case, and I was trying to establish
who were the Wagners, Who are the Wagoners? When did
you start dating Hannah? What was that relationship? You know?
He didn't dodge questions, looked me in the eye when
(14:04):
I interviewed him, really nice. It seemed to me as
if when we had talked that very first time, that
he was truly in love with Hannah. Whatever that means.
But he thought that they were going to be that
it would all that there would be a reconciliation and
they would all come together, and he had this idea
in his head about what that would look like. And
(14:27):
I told him this, like, Wow, for a young man,
you seem to have everything lined up, you know. I mean,
he was saying, well, we were going to do this,
he and Hannah, we were going to do this. We're
going to do this. My plan was this. And I
was like, wow, that's a lot of you are really linear,
I think, is what I said. Everything's has to line up.
And I was sort of taken by that. I didn't
(14:51):
quite know what to think of it. But again, I
try to keep my mind as open as possible when
I'm interviewing people. If in fact, what Jake Wagner said
is true, And he committed five of eight murders and
then went to sleep that night, took a shower, and
then had the nerve to sit down with you straight
faced and said, I'm good, you know, like a regular person.
(15:11):
That's so unfathomable to me. Humans are multifaceted. I've said
for years that being a reporter didn't get easier. It
gets harder the longer you do it, because the world,
you begin to understand the world is multidimensional and things
are very it just there's not sometimes these clear things
(15:33):
they're not. I have a lot of questions, as someone
who's talked to Jake before, I have tons of questions,
as you can only imagine. But yeah, I mean, it
seemed to me as if as I just painted, You know,
there were toys everywhere. He talked about his daughter all
the time. He talked about you know, for instance, he
(15:53):
could name movies they all watched together, the books he
would read her before they went to bed, what he
told her about where her mom was. You know that
mom's with Jesus now, he said, You know, I don't
know how to explain to her that mom isn't coming back.
(16:16):
Did you ask where his daughter was that night? I mean,
it was my understanding that this was his week to
have the child, and he had gotten the child a
day earlier then he would normally have done that. Fast
forward five years. If Jake Wagner is to be believed
(16:37):
by what he said in court, what we still don't
know is where all four of the Wagoners were the
night and early morning of the twenty first and twenty second.
So there's an assumption I think that all four of
the Wagners participated physically in the crimes. I don't know
(16:59):
if that's true. I simply don't know that. What Jake said,
and as you all know, what Jake said in court
is that he was quote unquote personally responsible for five
of the eight victims. So I don't know where his
brother was, his dad, or his mom. What was Angela Wagner? Like,
(17:21):
Jake talked a lot more than Angela, but Angela would
add on things as Jake talked. But any in person
interview I did with Jake, Angela was there and didn't leave.
I mean she was a mom. I mean that's how
I saw it. You know, she's a mom. Here her Again,
this is six weeks after these homicides, and when I
(17:44):
you know, and again I'm not trying to be sympathetic
to the Wagner's right now, I'm not, but again, dialing
back five years, I show up on your doorstep, and
if I'm the mom and my son has just lost
the mother of his child, I guess I thought she
was just being a protective mom. I'm here for my
(18:05):
kid kind of thing. Again, this all looks different today
than it did five years ago. At the time, did
you feel like they might have been guilty or did
you believe what they were saying or do you not
put yourself in that position to even have an opinion?
I had somebody asked me, I don't even know a
couple of years ago, what's it like to look into
(18:25):
the eyes of pure evil? I said, I don't know.
Sometimes I think that people think it would you would
just automatically. I don't know that some like I have
some kind of radar that go off that we're you know.
But they weren't suspects, so I wasn't approaching them with
that in the back of my mind, like, oh, now
(18:46):
you're suspects in this. It was more information gathering. They
didn't seem nervous. I don't think they ever asked me,
because sometimes in interviews people will say, oh, don't use that,
or don't use that, or that makes me nervous, or
I mean I don't recall any of that. You know.
It wasn't any like, well you can't use that, or
what are you doing or any of that. But I don't.
(19:09):
You know, again, you don't know what you don't know,
And to be completely honest, I did ask them Angela
and Jake Wants via email, just straight out did you
kill them? And they never responded. We're going to take
a quick break here. We'll be back in a moment.
(19:40):
In twenty seventeen, the investigation ramped up. More than two
dozen investigators are focused on solving one of Ohio's largest
mass murders in history. As of today, we've received eight
hundred and eighty three tips, we have conducted four hundred
and sixty five interviews, thirty eight search warrants have been issued,
and sixty cyber extractions have been done. They say they
(20:01):
made a significant progress in the investigation, believe more than
one person committed the crimes, but to day, the killers
are still on the loose. When did you hear that
the Wagoners were suspects? All of a sudden, I got
a tip from somebody. They said, hey, have you heard
about the search at the Wagoners? And it became really
(20:23):
clear to me that they must have had something, because
you'd have to have probable cause. So whatever it was
that got them probable cause to do the search, I thought, well,
they found something, because it isn't just going to be
a fishing expedition, right. So I got in my car
and I drove there, and there were helicopters up and
there were law enforcement, like on four wheelers. I was
(20:45):
sitting there at the search and someone said, well, you
know the house is sold. I said, no, I don't
know that. And then I sat in my car and
looked up the property records and saw that it was
on the market. And then you start connecting the dots
in your own head, right, And I was like, whoa
(21:07):
wait a minute, wait a minute. And then I found
out they were in Alaska. The Wagners were in Alaska.
And then I went to the editor and said, I
need to go to Alaska. I need to talk to them.
We have major developments tonight in a bazaar and tragic
murder case with ties between Ohio and Alaska. Investigators want
any information the public has about the Wagner family. That
(21:29):
someone has information, it really is in their best interest
to come forward voluntarily, thank you of us that information.
They're not messing around. We're going to ask for people
if they're building evidence from us, so it's in their
interests to come forward. They went somewhere where you had
to really want to find them, to find them, right,
(21:50):
It did seem like they were trying to get lost
in a way. They lived in a rural part that's
a Kenai peninsula, and Alaska is expansive, but I mean
everything is so far from everything else. I talked with
people in you know, a little like a little cafe.
People knew that they were there, but it wasn't any
big deal. They were like, oh, you mean the people
(22:11):
who are wanted in Ohio for killing all those people.
Attorney General Dwine you know, said they were you know that,
while not calling them suspects, said, you know, they were
laser focus of the investigation. And I'm like, well, actually,
they're not really wanted, you know. I mean that was
the thing that was really interesting. By the time the
(22:32):
news got there, most people thought they were wanted, but
that didn't seem to bother people. I remember quoting a
guy saying, well, this is where people come to get lost,
you know, it's no surprise. I remember being struck when
we drove there that, well, of course they live here.
It looks just like Pike County. You know, it's wooded,
(22:52):
it's beautiful. When I knocked on the door, she came
to the door and I said, Angela, I'm here, let's talk.
And she was sort of startled, I think to see me.
And then Jake came to the door, and the little
girl came, and Jake Wagner says, oh, my gosh, Chris,
it's so great to see you. It's so great to
see somebody. I mean, there was no trepidation, but Billie
(23:15):
did yell. I never saw him, but he yelled from
the living room, Hey, Angela, what are you doing? You know,
get back in here. And she's like, oh, don't mind him.
You know, his barks hours in his bite. I mean,
they were like, well, I don't know about this. We've
got a lawyer back in Ohio. I don't think we
should say anything until we talked to him. I was like, well,
I'd really like to do a sit down interview. I'd
(23:37):
really like to record it. Then it became a back
and forth about well, who's your lawyer, how do I
talk to him? Where do I get him? What will
we do? I need to talk to him, and then
I had a long conversation with him on the phone,
but he was in Ohio. So I go all the
way to Alaska to talk to somebody in Ohio, and
he was the one who made it sound like the
(23:59):
Wan was harassing them. This is all harassment. They've done
nothing but be cooperative. They've cooperated one hundred and ten percent.
They've given over their laptops, their phones, they've provided DNA,
they've agreed to any number of interviews with a BCI,
(24:21):
which is the Ohio Bureau of Criminal Investigation. They've told
authorities that they were going to Alaska. The state is
making them look like suspects when they haven't called them suspects.
And then he said that it probably wouldn't be a
good idea to give the interview like they basically agreed
to it, and then said, NOLP, never mind, we've changed
(24:43):
our mind, which is really unfortunate. It was the last
time Chris Graves would ever speak with the Wagner family. However,
she recently returned to Pike County for the first time
in years after hearing some shocking news. Exactly five years
after the road and murders in Pike County, one of
the four defendants, Jake Wagner, is pleading guilty to all counts.
(25:05):
In exchange, he avoids the death penalty and will serve
multiple life sentences with no chance at parole. His father, mother,
and brother are similarly charged, and they've pleaded not guilty.
Prosecutors say that Jake will testify against them. Hearing the
prosecutor sort of described that he, you know, he's going
to change his plea and outlining the terms of the
plea arrangement, and then when she shared some details of
(25:29):
the crime, it was just was like, Oh my gosh,
this is really happening right now. I mean, I'm a journalist,
so I just sort of think about what are the facts,
what's happening, what are they saying. I don't even know
if I really believe he personally killed five people. I thought,
is he trying to get his mom off? Is he
(25:51):
trying to paint the picture that his mom wasn't there
or dad? Somebody wasn't there, so he's gonna like top
the majority of them. All four were involved. But what
does that mean? Does that mean two were involved in
the planning other people did something, you know, somebody went
(26:12):
in and pulled all the trail cameras, but weren't involved
in the actual shooting. I don't again, we don't really
and I know I'm saying this all the time, but
we really don't know A ton of these details. A
lot of it, even with his guilty plea, is speculation.
So I don't know. I'm like, well, is he trying
(26:33):
to spare as he trying to lie about who was there?
I mean, he's lied before, so why would he tell
the complete truth? Now let's stop here for another quick break.
We'll be back in a moment. Like everybody, I want
(27:04):
to know the answers. I want to know the details.
I want to know, like how you come up with this?
How do you do you? Are you all just sitting
around the kitchen table like plotting this? And at some point,
why is it that out of four people, somebody doesn't say,
uh no, no, it's one thing to talk about it.
(27:25):
But now we're doing it, and we're building silencers and
we're plotting things as I mean, as it's been described.
In some mental way, you're imagining you're doing something good
for the benefit of your kin, your grandchild, But why
would you put your own kids in the heart of murder?
And again the idea that of four people, of four
(27:49):
people who were supposedly religious people, not one of you
said thou shalt not kill not one of you, really,
not one of you had a moment where you said,
this is wrong, This is fundamentally catastrophically wrong. I honestly don't.
(28:18):
I cannot understand that, Like, was that a surprise to you,
that it was that it was them? No. The thing
that startled me, or continues to I guess that I
have a hard time wrapping my brain around, is that
you would annihilate eight people or an entire family over
(28:41):
the custody of your of the youngest member of that
mine could joined family. But I can't think it's got
to be about more than that. My gosh, I mean,
who does this or custody? You know, who destroys is
a family, decimates a family and in essence then destroying
(29:06):
that child's life to protect that. It just doesn't it
doesn't reconcile with me. I remember interviewing Tony Rowden, he's
the brother of the victims and uncle and all of that.
I remember Tony just saying Chris, and I can't, I mean, please,
don't let that be true. I hope that isn't true,
because that little girl does not deserve this, you know,
(29:29):
for her sake. I just I hope this isn't true
an he meant it. I mean it came from a
very deep and meaningful place. But I guess we're all
always looking for logical explanations to a logical acts. What
has been your experience being back in Pike County now
(29:49):
five years later? The question I've asked people here is
do people still think about this case? Do people still
talk about that? And the response that I've got is yes,
And I guess. I talked to a couple of people
the other day in a public setting, and they talked
in the terms of how tragic it is and how
(30:14):
it's inconceivable. But yeah, I think it's a ballacy, and
not just in this case, but in all cases, to
think that there's like a closure thing. I don't think
that exists. I drove past the crime scenes and they,
you know, interestingly, a couple buildings that remain there a
(30:36):
little bit more weathered, I noticed. But it feels like
time sort of is standing still there, you know, waiting
for an end to this. So I don't think this
brings anybody closure. I think that's some Hollywood nice version
of well, now you get to move on with your life.
(30:58):
I think that's frankly, bs, I think the amount of
loss and the ripple effects of that loss will be
felt for generations, but truthfully has become the most important
and meaningful story of my career. At the end of
(31:22):
the day, I was doing my work, and I try
to do that with compassion and empathy and understanding, as
well as trying to find facts and being hard when
I need to. But it's but then I get to leave,
you know, I get to leave, and certainly they stay
with me, and they will always stay with me. But
(31:45):
I don't, you know, I don't wake up every morning
without a mother, without a son, without my grandchildren, without
you know, I don't wake up having to figure out
how to tell those children what happened to their mothers
and fathers and cousins and uncles and that or I mean,
(32:11):
my goodness, you know, the conversations that are going to
have to be had with Jake and Hannah's daughter. I mean,
I don't have to do that. And that's what I
want people to think about when they think about this crime.
I think sometimes we become fascinated with the inner workings
of how would one family do this to the other family.
(32:34):
These are people's lives and I cannot say that enough.
And that's what should not be forgotten in all of
this is that through all of the horrificness of the
crime these there are so many people left behind in
this wake. The family was decimated. So I guess that's
(32:59):
what that I hope people take away from this as
opposed to this a salacious story. On June twenty one,
twenty twenty one, accused brother George Wagner, will head back
to court for a hearing, one that could change the
landscape of the case moving forward. But as we wait,
(33:22):
we turn our attention to another story that has had
a lasting effect on a different community, just miles away
from Pike County. It centers around a notorious lawyer named
Michael Moran. He was arrested in twenty twenty on eighteen
charges related to running a prostitution ring. He's pleaded not
guilty to all of them and is currently awaiting trial.
He's accused of trafficking women all over the country, from
(33:43):
New York and New Jersey to Florida. A lot of
these women are part of marginalized society right Nobody was
listening to their stories before, or seeing them as even
human They were seeing them as criminals, people who would
rob them, people who were going to break into their house,
but nobody was really hearing from them. I wanted to
(34:06):
continue to investigate these stories, but I didn't know at
that time how big this was. More on that next time.
For more information on the case and relevant photos, follow
us on Instagram at Katie Underscore Studios. The Piked and
(34:30):
Massacre Returned to Pike County is executive produced by Stephanie
Lydecker and me Courtney Armstrong. Editing and sound designed by
executive producer Jared Aston. Additional producing by Jeff Shane, Andrew
Becker and Chris Graves. We'd like to thank the maud
Hammond Fling Faculty Research Fellowship Grant, which supports faculty research
at the University of Nebraska Lincoln, where Chris Graves teaches journalism.
(34:52):
The Piked and Massacre Returned to Pike County is a
production of iHeartRadio and Katie Studios. For more podcasts from
My Heart Radio, visit iHeartRadio app, Apple Podcasts, or wherever
you listen to your favorite shows.
Welcome to the piked In Massacre, a production of iHeartRadio
and Katie Studios. A lot of what I do is
I kind of tiptoe into people's tragedy, but I get
to pull my toes out as opposed to the families
who their entire lives are you know, shattered in some cases,
destroyed and decimated, which certainly happened in this case. But
as the story unfolded, and as we started piecing together
(00:23):
things and talking with family members and law enforcement and
people in the community, it just became clear to me.
I guess that this was a special place. This is
the Pikedon Massacre. Returned to Pike County, Season two, Episode six,
The Victims Need a Voice. I'm Courtney Armstrong, a television
producer at Katie Studios with Stephanie Lydecker and Jeff Shane.
(00:48):
The day that eight members of the Rodent family were
found murdered, journalist Chris Graves began covering the story for
the Cincinnati Enquirer. Her insight is crucial, as she spoke
with members of the victims families, the Manli's and Gillies
in the immediate aftermath of the killings. She's the only
journalist to conduct an exclusive interview with the Wagner family.
(01:08):
Just weeks after the Rodents were found dead. Graves sat
down with Jake Wagner, who has now pled guilty, and
his accused mother, Angela. We finally got Chris Graves to
sit down for an interview after many tries. She's speaking
out now because she feels it's imperative that the victims
have a voice in this story. This is highly significant
due to the current gag orders. Here she is speaking
(01:30):
to our producer, also named Chris Graves. When did you
first hear about the Rodent murders? So I first heard
about the crime the friday in which it broke. I
saw a tweet, as I recall, and the first news
of this was that there were people dead in Pike
County and that the police were beginning to investigate. So
(01:54):
my news instincts kicked in, and then I texted our
editors and said, this is our story, this is what
I was thinking. Multiple people found Daddy in more than
one location along Union Hill Road and piked in this morning.
My two PM investigators say they found eight people dead,
seven adult victims and a sixteen year old boy, all
(02:14):
from the road. And family. There is a shooter or
shooters out there somewhere. No one is in custody right now.
Whoever they are, they were trying to possibly wipe out
this entire family. I was trying to get somebody who's
on the ground, who has eyes, who can help you
as a reporter, because when stories like this begin to unfold,
there's just so much you don't know. You don't know anything.
(02:37):
There was a church right across from Union Hill Road,
and I managed to get Reverend Phil Fulton on the phone,
and I, you know, I just started interviewing him. And
during the course of that conversation, I could hear the
Reverend Fulton talking with what appeared to be a family
member who turned out to be Leonard Manly. Leonard is
(02:58):
the father of Dama Many Roden, also the grandfather of
Hannah Roden, Chris Junior, and all of the kids. So
I asked him if he could put Leonard Manley on
the phone, and he did, and that was the first
time I talked with a family member. He was able
to tell me in that conversation who they believed had
(03:22):
been killed, and it was his daughter who found the
first four victims, who made the first nine one one call,
which we've all heard. I was trying to on the phone,
pieced together who all these people, what their relationships were,
Who were they, what were their relationships? It was certainly
(03:43):
horrific and tragic. Pikeden is a small community where everyone
knows everyone, and as you can imagine, the town is
just stunned, cunshock thinking about the whole family. Really, it
is hard to believe. It's such a useless strategy. I
just don't understand why it happened here. It was one
of the things, you know, pinched me, wake me up.
Sometimes I'll wake up, but they'll just feel like a dream.
(04:07):
On April twenty fourth, twenty sixteen, Chris Graves made her
way to Pike County. That church became a place for
both law enforcement and the family to gather, and I
asked the Reverend Fulton if I could attend his church
service on Sunday, which is what I did. I went
(04:27):
down into church and listened to his sermon. What was
that sermon like on that Sunday. It's a small church,
it's not a big church. Pastor Fulton sort of lives
in the community, has lived in the community, sort of
grew up there. He preached there for forty three years.
He talked a lot about this is what a church does.
(04:50):
It's you know, it's a shelter, a refuge, a safe
haven in a dark storm. He talked about the need
for the community to come together and support a family.
There was a lot of singing in turn to the
scriptures or inspiration and solace. He talked a lot about
evil and what evil would descend to do this small
(05:14):
country church just up the way north of RU thirty two,
helping some of the family and friends as they come
to grips with an unspeakable event. Can you describe the
evil community is? I don't think you can really describe.
It is just unbelievable. These things that's happening and going on,
and such tragedies like this, we should not have them.
You were faced with this giant puzzle, a very tragic
(05:35):
puzzle that you were trying to put together so that
others could learn what it possibly happened. Right, You're trying
to find the truth. You're trying to figure out who
is in a relationship with whom and how were these
people connected, what could have happened, where did they work,
what's all the prior criminal history of everybody, and you're
(05:56):
sort of left as a reporter to I mean, really
kind of do knock on doors, talk to people, try
to figure out, you know, talk to the people who
are closest to the information, and begin to sort of
piece stuff together. And what was the result of that.
I think this part of America gets a little bit
of a rap that it's a very and it is.
(06:18):
It is insular, but it's also kind. People were kind
when they maybe shouldn't have been, you know, at least
to me. And I just I really just wanted to
understand the victims. I wanted to understand family. So I
spent hours, sometimes oftentimes interviewing not just family members, but
(06:38):
people who lived, you know, down the road and across
the way, and you know, the librarian, and I mean
all kinds of you know, certainly the sheriff and the
attorney general and all of that. People call it and
we did too, the road in case of the road,
and certainly their family lost the most people, which sounds
(07:01):
horrific even to say. I mean, I just like, there's
no good words for any of this, but I mean
there are three family units. The Manlies, the Gillies, and
the rodents. Hannah Gilly is a little often turned into
a rodent or a footnote, right, we don't get to
explore her world nearly enough. And that's the other thing
(07:23):
I think about Hannah Hazel. That's what they call Hannah
Hazel Gilly to make the distinction between Hannah may Roden.
You know, she became I think, by default a rodent.
So when we first started writing, and I mean I
did think about that, like how we're sort of saying, well,
it's rodents, and I thought, well, she's essentially a rodent.
I mean, she was engaged to Frankie, they were going
(07:45):
to get married, they'd had a child together. She lived
for her son, you know, was really into nursing and
the health of him, and was trying to eat healthy.
She graduated from high school, was totally in love with Frankie.
They were you know, it's everything, building a life. She
(08:05):
saw herself as a road And having said that, she's
still a Gilly. And so this amount of devastation to
essentially three families, all of whom live in close proximity
to each other, and their families or have been in
various stages differently intertwined, and the ripple effect of that
(08:26):
and the children, which is what hit me the hardest.
I'm a mother of two. And the idea that there
were three very small children at the crime scenes and
they were found alive and physically unharmed resonated with me.
Ohio Attorney General Mike Dwine giving an update. Three children
did survive, a four day old, a six month old,
(08:49):
and a three year old. I think what makes this
particularly grizzly is the fact that you have these children
involved who obviously were there when executions took place. You know, heartbreaking.
I mean, you know the one mom apparently was killed
with the four day old right there. I mean, it's just,
you know, which it's just hard to believe. Then I
(09:12):
went and did my first column, and I just went
driving Pike County. It's pretty, rolling hills, It's absolutely beautiful,
and it was starting to warm up. Things were beginning
to bloom. There were fields of yellow and purple, and
I mean, it's just it was just absolutely beautiful. All
(09:33):
of the things that someone who looks for ways in
which to tell stories you look for, right, I mean,
as this county was going through its spring rebirth, it
struck me that this tragedy was rippling across sort of
these beautiful fields of yellow flowers, and I just could
not get those three children out of my head. And
(09:56):
I just started looking out and I started to cry,
I truthfully, and sort of became, I don't know, overwhelmed,
but I I came around or down a hill and
I saw a house just sort of out on its own, with,
you know, a couple of rocking chairs on the porch,
(10:16):
and you know, they were just rocking, but nobody was
in them. And I sort of started thinking about this
lullaby It's called the Appalachian Lullaby, and it just it
just started going through my head and I was remembering
pieces of it, and I just couldn't help but think
about those children and who would rock them to sleep,
(10:39):
and who would hold them tight, and who, you know,
who would sing them lullabies to sleep. And I thought,
that's what this is about. This was more than just
a homicide or a multiple homicide or a mask killing.
It's about who takes care of those babies and what
in the world happened here, and those children's lives will
(11:02):
never be the same. These are families, so many lives affected,
and the ripple effects of that which will go on
for decades and generations. They now are and will forever
be bound by this horrible tragedy. But both their strength
(11:23):
and their resilience and their resolve and their pain, I mean,
it's incredible to me. I don't, I don't. I'm struggling
with words because I don't know the right words. Truthfully,
it's it's heartbreaking and um and just awe inspiring. Somehow
they're survivors. So that's what I wrote about. Nobody can
(11:49):
imagine what this family has been through. Only the other families,
the Manlies, the Ali's, those families are suffering as much
as we are. They only know what we are all
going through every day we live with this. It never
(12:14):
goes away. I can tell you that even though it's
been extremely hard, that I know our family will never stop.
We will never give up. We will never give up
trying to find and bring the people whoever did this
(12:40):
to justice. We will not give up. Can you describe
your first impression to the Wagner's. My first interview with
Jake Wagner and his mom, Angela was on May thirty first,
twenty sixteen. You know, so, what is that six weeks
after the homicides. I had talked with other people who said, oh,
(13:03):
they probably aren't going to talk to you. They're pretty
to themselves. But I knew that Jake and Hannah had
been on a relationship and had had shared a child.
Said well, well, you know, we'll go try. I showed up,
and he and his mom agreed to the interview. He
and Angela outside their home, which was searched two years later.
(13:24):
We sat outside on a patio area and talked for
I don't know, two and a half hours. Maybe there
were children's toys everywhere, like those little pretend little cars
that they drive that are motorized, or little tikes, you know,
the slides and all of that. It seemed like, Wow,
(13:44):
here's a family who really digs their kids and or
grandkids in Angela's case, and I was trying to establish
who were the Wagners, Who are the Wagoners? When did
you start dating Hannah? What was that relationship? You know?
He didn't dodge questions, looked me in the eye when
(14:04):
I interviewed him, really nice. It seemed to me as
if when we had talked that very first time, that
he was truly in love with Hannah. Whatever that means.
But he thought that they were going to be that
it would all that there would be a reconciliation and
they would all come together, and he had this idea
in his head about what that would look like. And
(14:27):
I told him this, like, Wow, for a young man,
you seem to have everything lined up, you know. I mean,
he was saying, well, we were going to do this,
he and Hannah, we were going to do this. We're
going to do this. My plan was this. And I
was like, wow, that's a lot of you are really linear,
I think, is what I said. Everything's has to line up.
And I was sort of taken by that. I didn't
(14:51):
quite know what to think of it. But again, I
try to keep my mind as open as possible when
I'm interviewing people. If in fact, what Jake Wagner said
is true, And he committed five of eight murders and
then went to sleep that night, took a shower, and
then had the nerve to sit down with you straight
faced and said, I'm good, you know, like a regular person.
(15:11):
That's so unfathomable to me. Humans are multifaceted. I've said
for years that being a reporter didn't get easier. It
gets harder the longer you do it, because the world,
you begin to understand the world is multidimensional and things
are very it just there's not sometimes these clear things
(15:33):
they're not. I have a lot of questions, as someone
who's talked to Jake before, I have tons of questions,
as you can only imagine. But yeah, I mean, it
seemed to me as if as I just painted, You know,
there were toys everywhere. He talked about his daughter all
the time. He talked about you know, for instance, he
(15:53):
could name movies they all watched together, the books he
would read her before they went to bed, what he
told her about where her mom was. You know that
mom's with Jesus now, he said, You know, I don't
know how to explain to her that mom isn't coming back.
(16:16):
Did you ask where his daughter was that night? I mean,
it was my understanding that this was his week to
have the child, and he had gotten the child a
day earlier then he would normally have done that. Fast
forward five years. If Jake Wagner is to be believed
(16:37):
by what he said in court, what we still don't
know is where all four of the Wagoners were the
night and early morning of the twenty first and twenty second.
So there's an assumption I think that all four of
the Wagners participated physically in the crimes. I don't know
(16:59):
if that's true. I simply don't know that. What Jake said,
and as you all know, what Jake said in court
is that he was quote unquote personally responsible for five
of the eight victims. So I don't know where his
brother was, his dad, or his mom. What was Angela Wagner? Like,
(17:21):
Jake talked a lot more than Angela, but Angela would
add on things as Jake talked. But any in person
interview I did with Jake, Angela was there and didn't leave.
I mean she was a mom. I mean that's how
I saw it. You know, she's a mom. Here her Again,
this is six weeks after these homicides, and when I
(17:44):
you know, and again I'm not trying to be sympathetic
to the Wagner's right now, I'm not, but again, dialing
back five years, I show up on your doorstep, and
if I'm the mom and my son has just lost
the mother of his child, I guess I thought she
was just being a protective mom. I'm here for my
(18:05):
kid kind of thing. Again, this all looks different today
than it did five years ago. At the time, did
you feel like they might have been guilty or did
you believe what they were saying or do you not
put yourself in that position to even have an opinion?
I had somebody asked me, I don't even know a
couple of years ago, what's it like to look into
(18:25):
the eyes of pure evil? I said, I don't know.
Sometimes I think that people think it would you would
just automatically. I don't know that some like I have
some kind of radar that go off that we're you know.
But they weren't suspects, so I wasn't approaching them with
that in the back of my mind, like, oh, now
(18:46):
you're suspects in this. It was more information gathering. They
didn't seem nervous. I don't think they ever asked me,
because sometimes in interviews people will say, oh, don't use that,
or don't use that, or that makes me nervous, or
I mean I don't recall any of that. You know.
It wasn't any like, well you can't use that, or
what are you doing or any of that. But I don't.
(19:09):
You know, again, you don't know what you don't know,
And to be completely honest, I did ask them Angela
and Jake Wants via email, just straight out did you
kill them? And they never responded. We're going to take
a quick break here. We'll be back in a moment.
(19:40):
In twenty seventeen, the investigation ramped up. More than two
dozen investigators are focused on solving one of Ohio's largest
mass murders in history. As of today, we've received eight
hundred and eighty three tips, we have conducted four hundred
and sixty five interviews, thirty eight search warrants have been issued,
and sixty cyber extractions have been done. They say they
(20:01):
made a significant progress in the investigation, believe more than
one person committed the crimes, but to day, the killers
are still on the loose. When did you hear that
the Wagoners were suspects? All of a sudden, I got
a tip from somebody. They said, hey, have you heard
about the search at the Wagoners? And it became really
(20:23):
clear to me that they must have had something, because
you'd have to have probable cause. So whatever it was
that got them probable cause to do the search, I thought, well,
they found something, because it isn't just going to be
a fishing expedition, right. So I got in my car
and I drove there, and there were helicopters up and
there were law enforcement, like on four wheelers. I was
(20:45):
sitting there at the search and someone said, well, you
know the house is sold. I said, no, I don't
know that. And then I sat in my car and
looked up the property records and saw that it was
on the market. And then you start connecting the dots
in your own head, right, And I was like, whoa
(21:07):
wait a minute, wait a minute. And then I found
out they were in Alaska. The Wagners were in Alaska.
And then I went to the editor and said, I
need to go to Alaska. I need to talk to them.
We have major developments tonight in a bazaar and tragic
murder case with ties between Ohio and Alaska. Investigators want
any information the public has about the Wagner family. That
(21:29):
someone has information, it really is in their best interest
to come forward voluntarily, thank you of us that information.
They're not messing around. We're going to ask for people
if they're building evidence from us, so it's in their
interests to come forward. They went somewhere where you had
to really want to find them, to find them, right,
(21:50):
It did seem like they were trying to get lost
in a way. They lived in a rural part that's
a Kenai peninsula, and Alaska is expansive, but I mean
everything is so far from everything else. I talked with
people in you know, a little like a little cafe.
People knew that they were there, but it wasn't any
big deal. They were like, oh, you mean the people
(22:11):
who are wanted in Ohio for killing all those people.
Attorney General Dwine you know, said they were you know that,
while not calling them suspects, said, you know, they were
laser focus of the investigation. And I'm like, well, actually,
they're not really wanted, you know. I mean that was
the thing that was really interesting. By the time the
(22:32):
news got there, most people thought they were wanted, but
that didn't seem to bother people. I remember quoting a
guy saying, well, this is where people come to get lost,
you know, it's no surprise. I remember being struck when
we drove there that, well, of course they live here.
It looks just like Pike County. You know, it's wooded,
(22:52):
it's beautiful. When I knocked on the door, she came
to the door and I said, Angela, I'm here, let's talk.
And she was sort of startled, I think to see me.
And then Jake came to the door, and the little
girl came, and Jake Wagner says, oh, my gosh, Chris,
it's so great to see you. It's so great to
see somebody. I mean, there was no trepidation, but Billie
(23:15):
did yell. I never saw him, but he yelled from
the living room, Hey, Angela, what are you doing? You know,
get back in here. And she's like, oh, don't mind him.
You know, his barks hours in his bite. I mean,
they were like, well, I don't know about this. We've
got a lawyer back in Ohio. I don't think we
should say anything until we talked to him. I was like, well,
I'd really like to do a sit down interview. I'd
(23:37):
really like to record it. Then it became a back
and forth about well, who's your lawyer, how do I
talk to him? Where do I get him? What will
we do? I need to talk to him, and then
I had a long conversation with him on the phone,
but he was in Ohio. So I go all the
way to Alaska to talk to somebody in Ohio, and
he was the one who made it sound like the
(23:59):
Wan was harassing them. This is all harassment. They've done
nothing but be cooperative. They've cooperated one hundred and ten percent.
They've given over their laptops, their phones, they've provided DNA,
they've agreed to any number of interviews with a BCI,
(24:21):
which is the Ohio Bureau of Criminal Investigation. They've told
authorities that they were going to Alaska. The state is
making them look like suspects when they haven't called them suspects.
And then he said that it probably wouldn't be a
good idea to give the interview like they basically agreed
to it, and then said, NOLP, never mind, we've changed
(24:43):
our mind, which is really unfortunate. It was the last
time Chris Graves would ever speak with the Wagner family. However,
she recently returned to Pike County for the first time
in years after hearing some shocking news. Exactly five years
after the road and murders in Pike County, one of
the four defendants, Jake Wagner, is pleading guilty to all counts.
(25:05):
In exchange, he avoids the death penalty and will serve
multiple life sentences with no chance at parole. His father, mother,
and brother are similarly charged, and they've pleaded not guilty.
Prosecutors say that Jake will testify against them. Hearing the
prosecutor sort of described that he, you know, he's going
to change his plea and outlining the terms of the
plea arrangement, and then when she shared some details of
(25:29):
the crime, it was just was like, Oh my gosh,
this is really happening right now. I mean, I'm a journalist,
so I just sort of think about what are the facts,
what's happening, what are they saying. I don't even know
if I really believe he personally killed five people. I thought,
is he trying to get his mom off? Is he
(25:51):
trying to paint the picture that his mom wasn't there
or dad? Somebody wasn't there, so he's gonna like top
the majority of them. All four were involved. But what
does that mean? Does that mean two were involved in
the planning other people did something, you know, somebody went
(26:12):
in and pulled all the trail cameras, but weren't involved
in the actual shooting. I don't again, we don't really
and I know I'm saying this all the time, but
we really don't know A ton of these details. A
lot of it, even with his guilty plea, is speculation.
So I don't know. I'm like, well, is he trying
(26:33):
to spare as he trying to lie about who was there?
I mean, he's lied before, so why would he tell
the complete truth? Now let's stop here for another quick break.
We'll be back in a moment. Like everybody, I want
(27:04):
to know the answers. I want to know the details.
I want to know, like how you come up with this?
How do you do you? Are you all just sitting
around the kitchen table like plotting this? And at some point,
why is it that out of four people, somebody doesn't say,
uh no, no, it's one thing to talk about it.
(27:25):
But now we're doing it, and we're building silencers and
we're plotting things as I mean, as it's been described.
In some mental way, you're imagining you're doing something good
for the benefit of your kin, your grandchild, But why
would you put your own kids in the heart of murder?
And again the idea that of four people, of four
(27:49):
people who were supposedly religious people, not one of you
said thou shalt not kill not one of you, really,
not one of you had a moment where you said,
this is wrong, This is fundamentally catastrophically wrong. I honestly don't.
(28:18):
I cannot understand that, Like, was that a surprise to you,
that it was that it was them? No. The thing
that startled me, or continues to I guess that I
have a hard time wrapping my brain around, is that
you would annihilate eight people or an entire family over
(28:41):
the custody of your of the youngest member of that
mine could joined family. But I can't think it's got
to be about more than that. My gosh, I mean,
who does this or custody? You know, who destroys is
a family, decimates a family and in essence then destroying
(29:06):
that child's life to protect that. It just doesn't it
doesn't reconcile with me. I remember interviewing Tony Rowden, he's
the brother of the victims and uncle and all of that.
I remember Tony just saying Chris, and I can't, I mean, please,
don't let that be true. I hope that isn't true,
because that little girl does not deserve this, you know,
(29:29):
for her sake. I just I hope this isn't true
an he meant it. I mean it came from a
very deep and meaningful place. But I guess we're all
always looking for logical explanations to a logical acts. What
has been your experience being back in Pike County now
(29:49):
five years later? The question I've asked people here is
do people still think about this case? Do people still
talk about that? And the response that I've got is yes,
And I guess. I talked to a couple of people
the other day in a public setting, and they talked
in the terms of how tragic it is and how
(30:14):
it's inconceivable. But yeah, I think it's a ballacy, and
not just in this case, but in all cases, to
think that there's like a closure thing. I don't think
that exists. I drove past the crime scenes and they,
you know, interestingly, a couple buildings that remain there a
(30:36):
little bit more weathered, I noticed. But it feels like
time sort of is standing still there, you know, waiting
for an end to this. So I don't think this
brings anybody closure. I think that's some Hollywood nice version
of well, now you get to move on with your life.
(30:58):
I think that's frankly, bs, I think the amount of
loss and the ripple effects of that loss will be
felt for generations, but truthfully has become the most important
and meaningful story of my career. At the end of
(31:22):
the day, I was doing my work, and I try
to do that with compassion and empathy and understanding, as
well as trying to find facts and being hard when
I need to. But it's but then I get to leave,
you know, I get to leave, and certainly they stay
with me, and they will always stay with me. But
(31:45):
I don't, you know, I don't wake up every morning
without a mother, without a son, without my grandchildren, without
you know, I don't wake up having to figure out
how to tell those children what happened to their mothers
and fathers and cousins and uncles and that or I mean,
(32:11):
my goodness, you know, the conversations that are going to
have to be had with Jake and Hannah's daughter. I mean,
I don't have to do that. And that's what I
want people to think about when they think about this crime.
I think sometimes we become fascinated with the inner workings
of how would one family do this to the other family.
(32:34):
These are people's lives and I cannot say that enough.
And that's what should not be forgotten in all of
this is that through all of the horrificness of the
crime these there are so many people left behind in
this wake. The family was decimated. So I guess that's
(32:59):
what that I hope people take away from this as
opposed to this a salacious story. On June twenty one,
twenty twenty one, accused brother George Wagner, will head back
to court for a hearing, one that could change the
landscape of the case moving forward. But as we wait,
(33:22):
we turn our attention to another story that has had
a lasting effect on a different community, just miles away
from Pike County. It centers around a notorious lawyer named
Michael Moran. He was arrested in twenty twenty on eighteen
charges related to running a prostitution ring. He's pleaded not
guilty to all of them and is currently awaiting trial.
He's accused of trafficking women all over the country, from
(33:43):
New York and New Jersey to Florida. A lot of
these women are part of marginalized society right Nobody was
listening to their stories before, or seeing them as even
human They were seeing them as criminals, people who would
rob them, people who were going to break into their house,
but nobody was really hearing from them. I wanted to
(34:06):
continue to investigate these stories, but I didn't know at
that time how big this was. More on that next time.
For more information on the case and relevant photos, follow
us on Instagram at Katie Underscore Studios. The Piked and
(34:30):
Massacre Returned to Pike County is executive produced by Stephanie
Lydecker and me Courtney Armstrong. Editing and sound designed by
executive producer Jared Aston. Additional producing by Jeff Shane, Andrew
Becker and Chris Graves. We'd like to thank the maud
Hammond Fling Faculty Research Fellowship Grant, which supports faculty research
at the University of Nebraska Lincoln, where Chris Graves teaches journalism.
(34:52):
The Piked and Massacre Returned to Pike County is a
production of iHeartRadio and Katie Studios. For more podcasts from
My Heart Radio, visit iHeartRadio app, Apple Podcasts, or wherever
you listen to your favorite shows.
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