December 21, 2023 • 36 mins
In this episode, Karol discusses her experiences growing up poor and the challenges of raising children without fostering entitlement. She welcomes David Kaufman, a New York Post editor, about his career and his experiences as a black, gay, Jewish individual. Kaufman discusses the lack of accountability in society, the problems with identity politics, and the need for self-reliance within the Jewish community.
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Speaker 1 (00:04):
Hi, and welcome back to the Carol Marcowitz Show on iHeartRadio.
One of the things I think about a lot is
how to raise rich kids. Now, I know poor people
don't like to be called poor, and rich people don't
like to be called rich. And not trying to make
anybody uncomfortable. When I say rich, I don't mean private
jets and yacht rich. I just mean kids who have
(00:26):
their needs met all of the time. I use rich
as a synonym for being free from everyday money worries.
I grew up quite poor. We lived in a bad
neighborhood in Brooklyn. I was very aware of crime happening
around me. I didn't have many toys. I never had
the IT toy, just really limited like McDonald's was a
(00:48):
special occasion kind of thing. And I wrote a few
years ago that every October throughout my childhood, my mom
would dig out the flannel sheets to stretch on all
of our beds to help bend off the c of
the coming New York winter. She would take down these
heavy blankets that my grandmother had brought with her from
the Soviet Union to replace the thin ones we'd use
(01:10):
all summer, and we'd wear long sleeve long pants pajamas.
Speaker 2 (01:15):
Now.
Speaker 1 (01:15):
Meanwhile, my own kids don't have flannel sheets, and in fact,
their betting, complete with the heavy comforter, is the same
whether it's July or January, not just in Florida either.
The homes that they've lived in are always seventy three degrees.
And now we're heading into their December break and we
only have a short trip planned. Because I had a
(01:36):
busy year of travel and all I want to do
is be at home and be very still and not
do very much at all. My middle son asked, like,
is everything okay? Again, It's not like we winter in
Saint Bart's or something like that. Last year we did
a week in the Smoky Mountains in Tennessee.
Speaker 3 (01:55):
But hearing that we're only doing a short road.
Speaker 1 (01:57):
Trip this year, he was basedic, like, is everything all
right at work now? I don't want my kids to
have expectations of big trips every break, but as someone
who grew up poor, I also do enjoy getting to
give them everything, So it's a tough line to walk.
The main thing I want my kids to be prepared
for is that having money isn't necessarily a permanent state.
(02:22):
Sure studies show that those born rich will die rich,
but they mostly study that zero point oh one percent,
not people who have been comfortable but not super loaded.
My own life has been a roller coaster of various
financial situations. I've been poor, than rich, than poor, then
rich again. It's all over the place. I ask people
(02:45):
on this show whether they think they've made it. And
I had this moment many years ago, now, maybe twelve
years ago, thirteen years ago, where I left my house
for the day. We were living on the Upper West
Side of Manhattan at the time, and we had walked
maybe five blocks when I realized that my shoe was giving.
Speaker 2 (03:04):
Me a blister.
Speaker 1 (03:05):
For much of my life, I would have walked the
five blocks back home to get a band aid or
change my shoes or whatever. But on this day, I
walked into a CVS and I bought band aids and
they were like, what three dollars? That moment, I felt
like I had made it, and I felt so good
about my life, like I could just walk in here
(03:25):
and buy myself what I need and continue about my
day and not think for a second about these three
dollars that I spent. And that's why that question is
always so interesting. To me, it really depends on where
you came from and your expectations. And of course there
have been many times since that day with the band
aids that I felt that I haven't actually made it,
so that changes too. But back to the rich kids.
(03:48):
If you're able to mindlessly buy your kids like a
five dollars drink at Starbucks or splurge for an eight
dollar Uber ride when everyone is tired of walking, your
kids are rich.
Speaker 3 (03:58):
But few people want to admit that.
Speaker 1 (04:00):
And when I worry about giving my own kids too much,
I try to discuss it with parents and similar circumstances,
but it's a hard conversation to have because it turns
out that just like no one likes admit they're poor,
hardly anyone likes submitting they're rich. Either For us my
also immigrant husband nor I had family connections or networks.
(04:22):
We didn't have any of that growing up, so we
don't have any of the guilt we're supposed to have
at our privilege. And when you don't need to worry
about all the essentials and then some, that's rich. But
if you want to say so, if teaching kids to
appreciate what they have is important, pretending not to have
it is ineffective. I worry about my kids becoming entitled,
(04:42):
but the bigger concern for me is that they become
too comfortable, too sure that their good times can never end.
The challenge really is to teach them to enjoy what
they have, but not expect it. And the goal is
to teach perspective while providing comforts. And if that doesn't,
delete that uber app and turn down the heat. Coming
(05:03):
up next and interview with David Kaufman. Join us after
the break. Hi, and welcome back to the Carol Markowitz
Show on iHeartRadio. My guest today is David Kaufman. David
is an editor and columnist at my favorite newspaper, The
New York Post, and an adjunct.
Speaker 3 (05:22):
Fellow at the Tel Aviv Institute. Thanks so much for being.
Speaker 2 (05:25):
On, David, Thank you, thank you for having me.
Speaker 1 (05:27):
Yes, so, I know you as my sometimes editor at
the New York Post when I would write a column
on Sundays. Tell us a little bit about yourself. How
did you get into writing and editing?
Speaker 2 (05:38):
I'm when I was sort of young in my college
in my college years and think about what I wanted
to do with myself after I finish university. I was
good at two things. I was very good at writing,
and I was very good at expressing ideas on page,
putting ideas dependent paper. And I was very good with
time management. I knew how to get things up accomplished.
(06:00):
I knew how to take ideas and sort of turn
them into the written word, but also how to do
these types of things. Uh. I didn't think about it
at the time as on deadline, but within you know,
step period of time. So I knew I had this
skill that allowed me to take uh, complex ideas or
even simple ideas and translate them into pros, but also
(06:22):
do so in a set amount of time. And it
occurred to me that this was sort of, uh, the
ingredients for a career in journalism. And I, of course
was always sort of a magazine magazine mediac. I had
my friends from I had magazine media. You know. When
I was a kid in my in my you know,
tween years going up in San Francisco, I used to like,
you know, hide in the supermarket reading magazines. And I
(06:45):
was never I was a bit of a media slot
even back to then. I loved I love to read
time and I love to read Newsweek. But I also
loved to read the National Inquiry and I and Star
and I love to read like Car and Driver, even
though I've never learned how to drive. So I just
love I love the magazines. I love media even back then,
(07:06):
and I knew that this was something that was very
appealing to me and interesting. I love the sort of
the visual presentation in magazines. I love magazine covers, I
love fashion magazines, I love you know, cultural magazines. I
used to subscribe to a sort of I think it
was called Global News Report World News Report when I
was in high school and I could I had access
(07:26):
to all of these international magazines from Argentina and from
France and from Japan and Korea, way back before the internet.
So this was something I was just always had a
passion for. And then when I did my junior year
abroad in London, you know, they have such a vibrant
magazine newspaper culture in the way that we don't have
in the US, and a very clear politicized newspaper culture,
(07:46):
which I kind of was into. You knew what you're
going to get, right, I love I love nothing more
than us getting paper, getting you know, five papers on
Sundays in the in the UK and reading you know,
the Times and the Observer and then the Guardian early mail,
walking around seeing the clack cards all over London in
the evening, you know, telling you to pick paper with
(08:07):
all the headlines about Diana or whoever. I'm dating myself,
but so it was just something. And then when I
finished college, I moved to New York and went to
grad schoot NYU, and here I am.
Speaker 1 (08:17):
Well so I also I lived in Scotland. I loved
the British newspapers. I also went to NYU grad school.
So we have some things in common. But I have
never heard a writer say that they were good at
time management. I don't even know what that's all about,
because I thought the whole thing about being a writer
is that we procrastinate and procrastinate until the last possible second.
(08:37):
I thought that was like part of what we agreed
to as a you know, as a culture.
Speaker 2 (08:42):
It is it is. But even in that that kind
of structure of the last possible moment, I was still
always good at getting it done in the last possible night,
even if I waved to.
Speaker 3 (08:50):
The last yeah, yes, we get it done right.
Speaker 1 (08:55):
So since October seventh you've written and the massacre Israel.
You've written a lot about being black and gay and
Jewish and how that sort of informed your opinions, and
that you're kind of disappointed right now in the black
community or the gay community from not standing with.
Speaker 3 (09:15):
The Jewish community. What's been the hardest part of that
for you?
Speaker 2 (09:20):
It's been very disappointing. You know, we live in a
culture that's been sort of overwhelmed by social justice group movements,
by identity politics, intersectionality. I'm sort of the poster child
for identity politics in a way, being you know, LGBT,
being African American, also being Jewish. So I exist as
sort of this intersectional social justice identity, a unicorn with
(09:43):
fingers and affinities in all of these groups. And I've
seen how strongly Jews have come out to support all
these causes, queer causes, LGBT causes, of course, black lives matters, causes,
feminist causes, Asian hate. We as Jews, have been there.
We've stood up. No, we haven't just stood up, We've
We've held up in many ways these these these movements
(10:05):
with our time, our money, our blind support, which was great.
They were all worthy of this support. But now you know,
we have this situation where, you know, I think for Jews,
particularly Jews like me who is Zionistic and have a
very personal connection to Israel, which I do. I lived
there for many years in Tel Aviv, and so is
Israel's a very important person to me, important place to me.
(10:28):
You know, we have had this nightmare scenario that really
was beyond our worst nightmare. I mean, I think that
you know, for those of who spent time in Israel,
if you're worried about a terror attack or even a war,
I've I've been through two wars in Israel. I've lived
Thiseld for two wards. I've lived in those through multiple
terror attacks, So I know what terror in Israel looks
like very clearly. I still have my gas masks from
(10:50):
the First Gulf War. But what happened on October seventh
was so astoundingly beyond any of our w widest imaginations.
I mean, we would never and that also speaks to
the failure of as Israel and the intelligence community, and
that's something they're going to have to account for. But
going back to what happened, you know, every level of
(11:11):
what happened in October seventh. It was so horrific and
so be on our wildest imaginations. And you know, the
mass rape and the killing of children and the kidnapping.
You know, it touches upon every single sort of social
justice cause of the world right now, feminism, queer issues,
ethno identity issues. And yet these folks have not only
stood up for Jews, but many of them have, you know,
(11:34):
publicly doubted that these things even happen. Right have feminist
groups saying well, they weren't raped, or you have queer groups.
I mean, I saw I saw a post on Instagram
yesterday that was sort of astounding. It was a queer
trans group for Palestine and they were having some sort
of like teaching today where they were and they put specifically,
(11:55):
you know, stridently aggressively on the post on Instagram, the
time for this teaching, this sort of zoom teaching in
New York and the time for the zoom teaching in Gaza.
They could help, they could help you know, queer communities
and Gaza like learn people community and gaus. And I'm
just like, you know, who are these idiot people? No,
(12:17):
queer people in Gaza are hanging out listening to this
podcasts how to be you know, be more visible and
effective queer advocates in Godship. There are no vocal out
queer advocates in Gaza. They don't would be killed by
Hamas violently and horrifically, and their families would be shown
and probably killed as well. So there's such a lack
(12:38):
of logic and purple thinking and denial of reality. I mean,
what's so scary about this what's so scary about this
movement is we're living in a movement in a moment
where you know, the lowest common denominators, the lowest level
of thinking, you know, complete and total lack of reality
(13:02):
is leading the conversation. You know, we're being this conversation
is being led by people who don't know what they're
talking about, who are spreading lives, who are astoundingly underqualified
and informed, and they have these platforms and millions and
billions of people. It's very dangerous and very scary, and
it's scary on the kind of a societal and and
(13:24):
sort of cultural level, but also it makes me scared
on a personal level. If there's all these people out there,
you know, learning to hate Jews, but insane people on TikTok,
I'm a Jew that they could hate me, you know,
so it's very scary.
Speaker 3 (13:39):
So how do you challenge that? What do we do?
Speaker 1 (13:41):
And I know you have children, so like what's your
hope for that generation? How do they How do we
raise kids in this insane environment?
Speaker 2 (13:50):
Yeah? I think one of the key things that's that's
missing right now in this whole conversation is consequence. I mean,
these folks are kind of operating relentlessly and recklessly across
our society and there's very little consequence. I mean, we saw,
we've seen so many examples. We saw that Jewish teacher
who was sort of like locked in her room a
(14:10):
couple of days ago. And in Queens we saw the kids,
the students at at Cooper Union a couple of months ago,
a month and a half ago, who couldn't leave the library. Well,
we saw some pro Palestinian protester in a cafia like yesterday,
you know, trying to challenge a cop during the tree lightings. Well,
what's happening to these people? Are they being arrested, are
(14:32):
they being charged? Are these students being expelled? I mean,
as somebody who's also black, it's a very I'm so
conflicted by seeing a bunch of black kids, you know,
like terrorized a Jewish Jewish teacher and in a classroom.
You know, do I want these young black kids to
be expelled from school? Because so many black kids once
(14:53):
they are expelled from school, that starts this like lifelong
process of under achievement, you know. So do I want
that for them? I don't know. I don't know. I
don't want that for them. Do I want to get
away with locking a teacher in the room, yes, and
making her unable to do the drob and fear for
her safety. Well, that's not acceptable either. There has to
be a happy medium. We can't just say well, because
(15:14):
they're black kids, and you know, black kids are disproportionately
impacted by school discipline systems, which is true. Nobody's denying that. Okay,
we did that, But does that mean they shouldn't be disciplined.
Do I say to my say I have twins, Do
I say, well, because one kid is disciplined more than
the other, it's not fair to you know, he needs
to get a reprieve sometimes if he's acting badly. Well, no,
(15:36):
it just means that we need to find a better
way to discipline him. So that's very scary to me,
this sense that like there's there's no sense of consequence
and there is very little, you know, rigorous thinking of
you know, how do we how do we discipline and
offer consequence. Maybe we don't expel fifty black kids from
(15:57):
a school of Queen's en Mass, but do suspend them
for a period of time and we give them a
very serious warning and we bring in their parents, and
maybe we do it slightly publicly. I don't know. But
this is a moment where we have to think harder.
We have to make harder decisions, harder choices, We have
to work harder, not just dispense with our responsibility as citizens.
Speaker 1 (16:18):
Yeah, absolutely, I think that I think suspension was sort
of where I end up on it.
Speaker 3 (16:23):
I mean, they're dumb.
Speaker 1 (16:25):
Kids, and you know, the race to me is sort
of irrelevant. If it was, you know, a bunch of
Jewish kids locking a black teacher in a room, I
would feel the same way. I think they need consequence.
I also just think that we're seeing a breakdown of
everything everywhere.
Speaker 3 (16:42):
Not just in schools, not just for Jews.
Speaker 1 (16:46):
You know, I think that we've gotten to where we
see a consequence free society. I think, like the shoplifting
mobs or any of this stuff, we're not seeing people
have the consequences of their actions, and I think that
makes other people think, well, why do I have to
abide by the rules. So to me, it's if they
don't follow up and if they don't deal with a
(17:08):
lot of the different issues that we're facing, I think
we're just gonna that really just encourages other people to
get worse worse behavior, and that's what we're gonna end
up seeing. So one of the questions that I ask
all of my guests is what do you think is
our largest cultural or societal problem in the in America?
Speaker 3 (17:27):
And do you think it's solvable?
Speaker 2 (17:30):
I mean, I think it goes to what you were
just talking about, this lack of consequence, this this lack
of accountability. I mean, we now live in a world
where maybe it's because I mean I hate this idea
of like, you know, traditional family values, but you know
most of folks.
Speaker 3 (17:41):
From traditional family values.
Speaker 2 (17:45):
Yeah, you know, it takes a different way. Like you know,
I would say that my mom was a single mom,
but she was someone's very traditional. My my kids are
being raised by two dads, and there were you know,
especially the other one. He couldn't be more traditional, I mean,
like fashion. So yeah, it's not necessarily about you know, mom,
(18:07):
dad married in a house with a white pick of
fans watching, you know, leave it de Beaver. It's about
the sense of integrity in the family structure and accountability
and compassion and and and and that's all broken down,
I mean, you know, and particularly it's made worse by
the fact that, you know, our children spend so much
time on on machines and tablets, and you know, and
(18:30):
and and also in a way we as parents have
been lulled a bit, you know, because we our kids
are now so fluent with with with tablets. Sometimes we
don't really know what they're watching on tea. For some
of the messages, messages they're getting to. They have these like,
you know, crazy words coming out of their mouths, and
we wonder why saying these words, because we were not
paying attention while they were watching too. But I think
(18:51):
it goes back to what you were saying. We're living
in this culture of a consequence less culture in every
sense of the word, whether it's the shoplifting, the homelessness,
you know, the drug use that sort of encourage right
now as part of the harm reduction programs or housing
first programs that really say that, really say to folks,
to many folks, you're entitled to these kinds of social dispensation,
(19:15):
any accountability, without any sense of legitimacy or accomplishment. And again,
also I think we're talking about is and this really
speaks to I think the social justice movements in woke
culture is that it's it's a you are endowing people
or you are presenting people with a sense of legitimacy
(19:36):
and accomplishment and achievement where none really exists. You know,
you're saying this person is a leader because you know
their lived experience, because they've have a unique because of
a lived experience as opposed to which is important, don't
get me wrong, Like a refugee who's gone through war
and Darfur has a very unique lived experience that we
should be hearing about as part of conversation about you know,
(20:00):
the refugee experience, but we should also be hearing about
people who work in the UN and you know, work
for global refugee refugee organizations and maybe somebody who has
a PhD in refugees, like, it's not We've gone to
a point where it used to be a balance of
people presenting the reality, presenting UH history presenting UH current politics,
(20:20):
but now it's just the lived experiences. So people are
sort of self appointed experts in topics they know nothing about,
and we're kind of forced to listen to them because,
you know, because of corporate white guilt or because of
you know, if you don't, you don't affirm these people,
you'll be canceled. So again it goes back to this
idea of there's all of this sort of uh this this, this, this,
(20:44):
this dispersion of legitimacy, of accomplishment, of expertise by people
who actually have none of it. And when you call
them on this, when you call them and say, why
should I be listening to you? You know, why should
I be listening to a black social justice warrior about Palestine?
(21:06):
Number one? What does she have to say about Palatine?
And more apportantly, besides being black, what does she have
to say about black social justice? You know what I mean? Like,
why are these people in charge? Who who put these
people in charge? Why are we listening to them? And
why are we so afraid to ask why we're listening
to them. I think that's the problem.
Speaker 1 (21:24):
We're going to take a quick break and be right
back on the Carol Marcowitch Show. How do we move
away from listening to people who don't know anything about anything,
and you know, moving towards not treating identity as you know,
an explanation for anything.
Speaker 3 (21:43):
I can tell you.
Speaker 1 (21:44):
I was a refugee to this country when I was
a small child. Nobody's looking at looking at me for
a refugee advice or thoughts. So how do we move
away from, you know, treating people's lived experience as the
whole story.
Speaker 3 (21:57):
Yeah, I mean, you know, I talk about it.
Speaker 2 (21:59):
I do.
Speaker 3 (22:00):
I talk about my family's immigration experience.
Speaker 1 (22:03):
And how that differs wildly from the immigration that we
have now, and things like that. But it's interesting that
you say, you know, we listen to all these people
who really don't have any depth to their knowledge, and
I just want to know what you think we can
do to break that.
Speaker 2 (22:19):
Yeah. So, I think the most important thing especially I
mean everybody, but I think especially for Jews right now,
who exist in a state of kind of like, you know,
total abject collective moral failure by the rest of by
progressive society. I think what we do is we just
stop listening to them. We just say we're not going
to do it anymore, you know. Like I was, I
was on a podcast a couple of weeks ago, and
(22:40):
someone said to me, what happens when you know they
those groups want us back at the table, you know,
right right, all passes. I was like, we don't go,
you know, we we we at home, We make it,
we get ridden. Yeah, we say we're not going to
that table anymore. We actually make our own tables, you know,
(23:01):
and we say, if you want to, if you want
if you want us, if you want to be part
of you know, our collective, you know, our collective intellect
and social justice, passion and money, you come, you come
to us and will see what's happening. But I also
think again this is a little bit, you know, specific
to Jewish groups, but you know, I think that you know,
Jewish groups have been such a foundation and pillar of
(23:23):
progressive society since you know, forever, since Jews came here
as part of Jewish culture. To be progressive, to be philanthropic,
to want to help, to want to tokun olam, to
fix the world. This is what we do. This is
what makes us choose. So we have this inherent tendency
to be do gooders and which is a very good thing.
And also we've been sort of bamboozled into thinking that
(23:48):
because Jews are supposedly white, which I'm not white and
I'm Jewish, left not true, that our that on the
sort of hierarchy of oppression. We're at the lowest level.
So we should be looking out for ourselves. Well that's
stops now, you know. When we how do we fix
this the current situation? I think we turn inward, you know,
we start, we start, we start really really really you know,
(24:10):
dominating and firmly establishing our own tables, you know, and
we we are we maybe become a bit selfish, and
we say we're going to focus on Jewish issues right
now because it's not safe to be a Jew right
now in this world, and we need to protect ourselves.
And I think another thing to say is that, you know,
I I've never really been kind of like a political
(24:32):
guy in my life before October seventh. That was never political.
I was not. I kind of felt like just being
me in the world was political enough, you know, like
walking through the street as a black Jewish gay guy
with two kids. It's like, that's enough. I don't need
to do that. Completely. Yeah, changed, completely changed after October seventh,
and I became very vocal and outspoken on my social
(24:55):
media platforms and in many of the articles I wrote.
And one thing that I was really surprised, and I
for I knew this, but I was really heartened by
so many other different kinds of Jews, you know, Latin
Jews and Asian Jews and just all this bigger world
of Jews I was particularly connected to because I wasn't
a particularly you know, organizational Jew. I was just kind
(25:15):
of me, you know. So I've been I've been connected
to this whole world of Jews out there that's been
beautiful and wonderful. And it's occurred to me that, you know,
in our Jewish quest to participate in identity and social
justice and things like that, like, well, we have all
these things in Judaism itself. We have Jews of color,
(25:36):
we have feminist Jews, we have queer Jews, we have
you know, all kinds of Jews that fit into the
rubric of identity movements, intersectionality. Instead of wasting our collective
Jewish energy outside of Judaism. Supporting BLM. I'm supporting support
Jews of color, support queers of color. Sorry, support Jewish
(25:57):
Jewish gay people. Support, support Jews that are want if
you want to support you know, unsung people, what we
have plenty of them in Judaism. Support them. Look inward,
you know what I mean. I mean this way to
do as Jews.
Speaker 3 (26:14):
Yeah, I was gonna say, for.
Speaker 1 (26:15):
For a Jewish Conservative like me, it's it's been good
to see sort of Jews on the left, you know,
the ones who I would say I normally didn't have
a lot in common with, kind of wake up to
the threat because it is a threat for all of us.
It's not just you know, it's not just going to
be some one type of Jew that that they target
or another type of Jew. I think what we've seen
(26:36):
is that it's it's all across the board.
Speaker 3 (26:39):
I have to say.
Speaker 1 (26:39):
Also, takun Olam is the biggest tell usually that you're
about to enter some like you know, super super left
congregation or I think you know, Jewish conservatives definitely have
jokes about the takun Olam, which for listeners who don't
know it means.
Speaker 3 (26:54):
Heal the world, which listen, we're all for healing the world.
Speaker 1 (26:57):
But anyone who kind of you know that leads with that,
I think it's always to us a tell that Judaism
is less of a concern for that place.
Speaker 3 (27:06):
So I wanted to ask you.
Speaker 2 (27:09):
Yeah, one quick thing is that if we're going to
you know, if we're going to correct, if we're going
to fix the world, let's fix our world first. Yeah. No,
our world as Jews needs fixing. We've spent too much
time trying to fix the rest of the world, and
now when there was time for them to come help
(27:29):
fix ourselves, they completely abandon us. So when I'm trying yeah,
all these Jewish values, put them back on Jews. Leave
the rest of the world alone for now. They can
take care of themselves because they're not taking care of us.
Speaker 3 (27:44):
Right, and we can't wait for anybody to take care
of us.
Speaker 1 (27:46):
I think that's also been the message of the last
you know, almost two.
Speaker 3 (27:51):
Months or I think that, you know.
Speaker 1 (27:54):
One of the other things that I ask a lot
of my guests is you have a great career, you
have a beautiful family, You've you know, got it all
going on.
Speaker 3 (28:04):
Do you feel like you've made it.
Speaker 2 (28:07):
I mean, I'd like some more money. I'll be off.
I haven't written.
Speaker 3 (28:10):
Send David Kaufman more money.
Speaker 2 (28:14):
I could be you know, send me go fund me.
I have enough for now find it. I haven't written
a book yet, a book yet. I want to write
a book. I wanted to tell more about my life
and my unique family background, and I think it could
be I think a lot of people would find a lot,
a lot of identity identification in it. I come from
a really interesting background. You My mom is the daughter
(28:35):
of European Yiddish speaking Jews, and my father is a
Southern Texan black guy. They met as hippies in California
and here I am. So, you know, I think that
there's a lot there that I think it could help
folks struggling to find a place in the world, because
I think we're all I am still trying to figure
out who I am. So I like to write a book.
And I also I feel like, especially after October seventh,
(28:56):
like I feel like I've been sort of awakened a
bit in a sense that you know, I think the
Jews right now, I don't a lot of Jews don't
know what to do or how to do or where
to turn. I think a lot of Jews are very
afraid to speak out. They're afraid of being branded a racist.
They're afraid of calling BLM or queer groups or feminist
(29:17):
groups on their s h I T. I don't know
which we can swear here, but like you know, I
think that like a lot of a lot of progressive
Jews and who are really really disappointed and sad right now,
are really scared to call black groups ship and say
why aren't you supporting They're afraid of being called racist.
(29:37):
And I'm here to say, as as someone who's black
and jew ers, like you know, let that go. We
don't the time that you know, I wrote in the
Ford a couple of weeks ago, the time for respectability
is over. Like like we're finding that, thank you. There's
no need to mince words anymore. Like we we we
(29:57):
have nothing left to lose because we lost thousands and
we still have hundreds literally lost in Gaza, you know,
kidnapped by horrible people who could very well be you know,
be Pharaoh, murder them tomorrow. So the idea that we
need to sit around and accommodate and be worried and
be worried what we're going to say and offending people.
(30:17):
No more, no more, band all you want, Yeah, banned
all you want. Because what's more offensive than being gang
raped in a kibbutz by Hamas terrorists? What's more offensive
than women seeing their children murdered in front of him?
What's more offensive than a man who thought his child
had been kidnapped by Hamas and said he was he
(30:39):
would have he would have wished, he would have more,
wished death upon her, but then to get his child back.
You know what's more offensive than a ten month old
baby now eleven eleven months being held in captivity and
possibly dead. Like that's offensive. That's offensive to me, right, Elma,
they're bullshit, that's notive.
Speaker 3 (31:00):
Yeah, the shots you can get on social media.
Speaker 2 (31:03):
You know, yeah, take it, take the shots, you know,
that's right. But at the end of the day, like
we're fighting for our lives here. I mean that we
the folks who want to kill us, they've already killed
many of us, and they will kill us again. So
there's no mystery about what could happen out there, and
there's this is no time to worry about what people
(31:25):
think about us. We know what people think about us,
They think shit about us and want us to be
drowned in the sea. You know.
Speaker 1 (31:34):
Yeah, No, I think that's such a great point that
the people who are afraid of bad comments on social
media like need to grow a pair and understand that
there's so much more, you know, at risk here than
somebody calling your names on your Instagram or Facebook or
you know, the coworker that you had ten years ago
standing you know with Palestine in your comment section. Is
(31:55):
the worst it's going to get for you. So be
braver and don't be afraid to say what you really think.
Speaker 2 (32:02):
Yeah, but I'm I'm also I'm also you know, fed
up with you know, with the people who are silent.
I mean, there's so many of my Jewish friends who
are kind of fancy and have little fancy, fancy lives
and you know, going to fancy events and so posting
what they're wearing Dallas on Instagram and I'm like, what
the fuck? You know what I mean? Like that that's over,
(32:24):
that's over, you know what I mean, That period's over?
Like do you you know you can you can hide
behind your you know, fancy Hampton's houses. All you want
were rich, you know, rich deep poppeted Jews. But eventually
the bad guys will come and they will burn those
houses down. We saw it in nineteen thirty, nineteen forty,
We've seen it throughout history. Like when the bad guys
(32:46):
are coming to get us, they will get us. You
cannot hide. So I'm also just very disappointed with so
many of kind of the Jews I see on Instagram
still acting as if you know it was October six.
It's like, yeah, I don't want to see your parties
or your baking more. You know, It's it's offensive.
Speaker 1 (33:03):
Right, especially when you when you don't speak out, especially
when you're silent and you just pretend that everything's fine.
I think that that's that has been really offensive. And
I know exactly the kind of people that you're talking about.
I feel like I can talk to you for a while,
but I'm gonna let's end here with your best tip
for my listeners on how they can improve their lives,
(33:24):
because this is a show about living, and I'd love
to hear your thoughts.
Speaker 2 (33:27):
But is basically basically it's a bit of a cliche,
but at the end of the day, never live in fear.
And I take this from my mom you know who she's.
You know, she's a complicated person. But I think about
(33:48):
her being, you know, a thirty something year old white
Jewish woman many years ago with these two brown kids,
and how she existed in the world even though it
was northern California much more progressive, you know, it still
was like the seventies and eighties, you know. And I remember, like,
you know, she would take us on vacations all over
California and drive and once you left San Francisco, California
(34:11):
became much more conservative. And I remember, like, you know,
we never I never felt afraid with my mom growing
up as we traversed the world. And I know she
we haven't spoken about it so much, but I know
like she must have felt afraid of times, Like I
was thinking, like what would happen when we were, you know,
driving through rural California she had to stop and get gas,
(34:35):
you know, this single white woman with these two brown kids,
and like there must have been I mean, I'm afraid
sometimes today still, you know what I mean. But she
never ever transmitted that fear onto us. I never felt
insecure as a child with my mom, which is really
a testament to her and what I'm trying to say,
is like, go through life not ignoring fear, but never
(34:58):
giving into it. Never give me into the fear. Like
it's a bit of a cliche say, don't live in fear. Well,
we have fear. We can't, we can't pretend like we do.
And some things are the moms are scary. But never
give into the fear. Never. That's one thing I will
say about myself, like, I do live in fear sometimes,
you know, but I don't give into the fear. And
I think about my mom and like when she was
(35:19):
raising us that there must have been a lot of
she must have many moments she was afraid, you know,
existing in the world as who she was with my
sister and I, But I never felt her transmitting that
fear onto us, and I never felt insecure. And I
have such respect for her for that. So I guess
what it is is acknowledge fear, embrace it, tackle it,
(35:42):
but never never, never give into it. That way, the
bigause of failure is giving it to fear.
Speaker 3 (35:47):
I love that. Don't surrender to your fear. Thank you
so much for coming on, David. I love talking to you.
Thank you for listening to the Carol Marcowich Show.
Speaker 1 (35:55):
Subscribe wherever you get your podcasts.
Hi, and welcome back to the Carol Marcowitz Show on iHeartRadio.
One of the things I think about a lot is
how to raise rich kids. Now, I know poor people
don't like to be called poor, and rich people don't
like to be called rich. And not trying to make
anybody uncomfortable. When I say rich, I don't mean private
jets and yacht rich. I just mean kids who have
(00:26):
their needs met all of the time. I use rich
as a synonym for being free from everyday money worries.
I grew up quite poor. We lived in a bad
neighborhood in Brooklyn. I was very aware of crime happening
around me. I didn't have many toys. I never had
the IT toy, just really limited like McDonald's was a
(00:48):
special occasion kind of thing. And I wrote a few
years ago that every October throughout my childhood, my mom
would dig out the flannel sheets to stretch on all
of our beds to help bend off the c of
the coming New York winter. She would take down these
heavy blankets that my grandmother had brought with her from
the Soviet Union to replace the thin ones we'd use
(01:10):
all summer, and we'd wear long sleeve long pants pajamas.
Speaker 2 (01:15):
Now.
Speaker 1 (01:15):
Meanwhile, my own kids don't have flannel sheets, and in fact,
their betting, complete with the heavy comforter, is the same
whether it's July or January, not just in Florida either.
The homes that they've lived in are always seventy three degrees.
And now we're heading into their December break and we
only have a short trip planned. Because I had a
(01:36):
busy year of travel and all I want to do
is be at home and be very still and not
do very much at all. My middle son asked, like,
is everything okay? Again, It's not like we winter in
Saint Bart's or something like that. Last year we did
a week in the Smoky Mountains in Tennessee.
Speaker 3 (01:55):
But hearing that we're only doing a short road.
Speaker 1 (01:57):
Trip this year, he was basedic, like, is everything all
right at work now? I don't want my kids to
have expectations of big trips every break, but as someone
who grew up poor, I also do enjoy getting to
give them everything, So it's a tough line to walk.
The main thing I want my kids to be prepared
for is that having money isn't necessarily a permanent state.
(02:22):
Sure studies show that those born rich will die rich,
but they mostly study that zero point oh one percent,
not people who have been comfortable but not super loaded.
My own life has been a roller coaster of various
financial situations. I've been poor, than rich, than poor, then
rich again. It's all over the place. I ask people
(02:45):
on this show whether they think they've made it. And
I had this moment many years ago, now, maybe twelve
years ago, thirteen years ago, where I left my house
for the day. We were living on the Upper West
Side of Manhattan at the time, and we had walked
maybe five blocks when I realized that my shoe was giving.
Speaker 2 (03:04):
Me a blister.
Speaker 1 (03:05):
For much of my life, I would have walked the
five blocks back home to get a band aid or
change my shoes or whatever. But on this day, I
walked into a CVS and I bought band aids and
they were like, what three dollars? That moment, I felt
like I had made it, and I felt so good
about my life, like I could just walk in here
(03:25):
and buy myself what I need and continue about my
day and not think for a second about these three
dollars that I spent. And that's why that question is
always so interesting. To me, it really depends on where
you came from and your expectations. And of course there
have been many times since that day with the band
aids that I felt that I haven't actually made it,
so that changes too. But back to the rich kids.
(03:48):
If you're able to mindlessly buy your kids like a
five dollars drink at Starbucks or splurge for an eight
dollar Uber ride when everyone is tired of walking, your
kids are rich.
Speaker 3 (03:58):
But few people want to admit that.
Speaker 1 (04:00):
And when I worry about giving my own kids too much,
I try to discuss it with parents and similar circumstances,
but it's a hard conversation to have because it turns
out that just like no one likes admit they're poor,
hardly anyone likes submitting they're rich. Either For us my
also immigrant husband nor I had family connections or networks.
(04:22):
We didn't have any of that growing up, so we
don't have any of the guilt we're supposed to have
at our privilege. And when you don't need to worry
about all the essentials and then some, that's rich. But
if you want to say so, if teaching kids to
appreciate what they have is important, pretending not to have
it is ineffective. I worry about my kids becoming entitled,
(04:42):
but the bigger concern for me is that they become
too comfortable, too sure that their good times can never end.
The challenge really is to teach them to enjoy what
they have, but not expect it. And the goal is
to teach perspective while providing comforts. And if that doesn't,
delete that uber app and turn down the heat. Coming
(05:03):
up next and interview with David Kaufman. Join us after
the break. Hi, and welcome back to the Carol Markowitz
Show on iHeartRadio. My guest today is David Kaufman. David
is an editor and columnist at my favorite newspaper, The
New York Post, and an adjunct.
Speaker 3 (05:22):
Fellow at the Tel Aviv Institute. Thanks so much for being.
Speaker 2 (05:25):
On, David, Thank you, thank you for having me.
Speaker 1 (05:27):
Yes, so, I know you as my sometimes editor at
the New York Post when I would write a column
on Sundays. Tell us a little bit about yourself. How
did you get into writing and editing?
Speaker 2 (05:38):
I'm when I was sort of young in my college
in my college years and think about what I wanted
to do with myself after I finish university. I was
good at two things. I was very good at writing,
and I was very good at expressing ideas on page,
putting ideas dependent paper. And I was very good with
time management. I knew how to get things up accomplished.
(06:00):
I knew how to take ideas and sort of turn
them into the written word, but also how to do
these types of things. Uh. I didn't think about it
at the time as on deadline, but within you know,
step period of time. So I knew I had this
skill that allowed me to take uh, complex ideas or
even simple ideas and translate them into pros, but also
(06:22):
do so in a set amount of time. And it
occurred to me that this was sort of, uh, the
ingredients for a career in journalism. And I, of course
was always sort of a magazine magazine mediac. I had
my friends from I had magazine media. You know. When
I was a kid in my in my you know,
tween years going up in San Francisco, I used to like,
you know, hide in the supermarket reading magazines. And I
(06:45):
was never I was a bit of a media slot
even back to then. I loved I love to read
time and I love to read Newsweek. But I also
loved to read the National Inquiry and I and Star
and I love to read like Car and Driver, even
though I've never learned how to drive. So I just
love I love the magazines. I love media even back then,
(07:06):
and I knew that this was something that was very
appealing to me and interesting. I love the sort of
the visual presentation in magazines. I love magazine covers, I
love fashion magazines, I love you know, cultural magazines. I
used to subscribe to a sort of I think it
was called Global News Report World News Report when I
was in high school and I could I had access
(07:26):
to all of these international magazines from Argentina and from
France and from Japan and Korea, way back before the internet.
So this was something I was just always had a
passion for. And then when I did my junior year
abroad in London, you know, they have such a vibrant
magazine newspaper culture in the way that we don't have
in the US, and a very clear politicized newspaper culture,
(07:46):
which I kind of was into. You knew what you're
going to get, right, I love I love nothing more
than us getting paper, getting you know, five papers on
Sundays in the in the UK and reading you know,
the Times and the Observer and then the Guardian early mail,
walking around seeing the clack cards all over London in
the evening, you know, telling you to pick paper with
(08:07):
all the headlines about Diana or whoever. I'm dating myself,
but so it was just something. And then when I
finished college, I moved to New York and went to
grad schoot NYU, and here I am.
Speaker 1 (08:17):
Well so I also I lived in Scotland. I loved
the British newspapers. I also went to NYU grad school.
So we have some things in common. But I have
never heard a writer say that they were good at
time management. I don't even know what that's all about,
because I thought the whole thing about being a writer
is that we procrastinate and procrastinate until the last possible second.
(08:37):
I thought that was like part of what we agreed
to as a you know, as a culture.
Speaker 2 (08:42):
It is it is. But even in that that kind
of structure of the last possible moment, I was still
always good at getting it done in the last possible night,
even if I waved to.
Speaker 3 (08:50):
The last yeah, yes, we get it done right.
Speaker 1 (08:55):
So since October seventh you've written and the massacre Israel.
You've written a lot about being black and gay and
Jewish and how that sort of informed your opinions, and
that you're kind of disappointed right now in the black
community or the gay community from not standing with.
Speaker 3 (09:15):
The Jewish community. What's been the hardest part of that
for you?
Speaker 2 (09:20):
It's been very disappointing. You know, we live in a
culture that's been sort of overwhelmed by social justice group movements,
by identity politics, intersectionality. I'm sort of the poster child
for identity politics in a way, being you know, LGBT,
being African American, also being Jewish. So I exist as
sort of this intersectional social justice identity, a unicorn with
(09:43):
fingers and affinities in all of these groups. And I've
seen how strongly Jews have come out to support all
these causes, queer causes, LGBT causes, of course, black lives matters, causes,
feminist causes, Asian hate. We as Jews, have been there.
We've stood up. No, we haven't just stood up, We've
We've held up in many ways these these these movements
(10:05):
with our time, our money, our blind support, which was great.
They were all worthy of this support. But now you know,
we have this situation where, you know, I think for Jews,
particularly Jews like me who is Zionistic and have a
very personal connection to Israel, which I do. I lived
there for many years in Tel Aviv, and so is
Israel's a very important person to me, important place to me.
(10:28):
You know, we have had this nightmare scenario that really
was beyond our worst nightmare. I mean, I think that
you know, for those of who spent time in Israel,
if you're worried about a terror attack or even a war,
I've I've been through two wars in Israel. I've lived
Thiseld for two wards. I've lived in those through multiple
terror attacks, So I know what terror in Israel looks
like very clearly. I still have my gas masks from
(10:50):
the First Gulf War. But what happened on October seventh
was so astoundingly beyond any of our w widest imaginations.
I mean, we would never and that also speaks to
the failure of as Israel and the intelligence community, and
that's something they're going to have to account for. But
going back to what happened, you know, every level of
(11:11):
what happened in October seventh. It was so horrific and
so be on our wildest imaginations. And you know, the
mass rape and the killing of children and the kidnapping.
You know, it touches upon every single sort of social
justice cause of the world right now, feminism, queer issues,
ethno identity issues. And yet these folks have not only
stood up for Jews, but many of them have, you know,
(11:34):
publicly doubted that these things even happen. Right have feminist
groups saying well, they weren't raped, or you have queer groups.
I mean, I saw I saw a post on Instagram
yesterday that was sort of astounding. It was a queer
trans group for Palestine and they were having some sort
of like teaching today where they were and they put specifically,
(11:55):
you know, stridently aggressively on the post on Instagram, the
time for this teaching, this sort of zoom teaching in
New York and the time for the zoom teaching in Gaza.
They could help, they could help you know, queer communities
and Gaza like learn people community and gaus. And I'm
just like, you know, who are these idiot people? No,
(12:17):
queer people in Gaza are hanging out listening to this
podcasts how to be you know, be more visible and
effective queer advocates in Godship. There are no vocal out
queer advocates in Gaza. They don't would be killed by
Hamas violently and horrifically, and their families would be shown
and probably killed as well. So there's such a lack
(12:38):
of logic and purple thinking and denial of reality. I mean,
what's so scary about this what's so scary about this
movement is we're living in a movement in a moment
where you know, the lowest common denominators, the lowest level
of thinking, you know, complete and total lack of reality
(13:02):
is leading the conversation. You know, we're being this conversation
is being led by people who don't know what they're
talking about, who are spreading lives, who are astoundingly underqualified
and informed, and they have these platforms and millions and
billions of people. It's very dangerous and very scary, and
it's scary on the kind of a societal and and
(13:24):
sort of cultural level, but also it makes me scared
on a personal level. If there's all these people out there,
you know, learning to hate Jews, but insane people on TikTok,
I'm a Jew that they could hate me, you know,
so it's very scary.
Speaker 3 (13:39):
So how do you challenge that? What do we do?
Speaker 1 (13:41):
And I know you have children, so like what's your
hope for that generation? How do they How do we
raise kids in this insane environment?
Speaker 2 (13:50):
Yeah? I think one of the key things that's that's
missing right now in this whole conversation is consequence. I mean,
these folks are kind of operating relentlessly and recklessly across
our society and there's very little consequence. I mean, we saw,
we've seen so many examples. We saw that Jewish teacher
who was sort of like locked in her room a
(14:10):
couple of days ago. And in Queens we saw the kids,
the students at at Cooper Union a couple of months ago,
a month and a half ago, who couldn't leave the library. Well,
we saw some pro Palestinian protester in a cafia like yesterday,
you know, trying to challenge a cop during the tree lightings. Well,
what's happening to these people? Are they being arrested, are
(14:32):
they being charged? Are these students being expelled? I mean,
as somebody who's also black, it's a very I'm so
conflicted by seeing a bunch of black kids, you know,
like terrorized a Jewish Jewish teacher and in a classroom.
You know, do I want these young black kids to
be expelled from school? Because so many black kids once
(14:53):
they are expelled from school, that starts this like lifelong
process of under achievement, you know. So do I want
that for them? I don't know. I don't know. I
don't want that for them. Do I want to get
away with locking a teacher in the room, yes, and
making her unable to do the drob and fear for
her safety. Well, that's not acceptable either. There has to
be a happy medium. We can't just say well, because
(15:14):
they're black kids, and you know, black kids are disproportionately
impacted by school discipline systems, which is true. Nobody's denying that. Okay,
we did that, But does that mean they shouldn't be disciplined.
Do I say to my say I have twins, Do
I say, well, because one kid is disciplined more than
the other, it's not fair to you know, he needs
to get a reprieve sometimes if he's acting badly. Well, no,
(15:36):
it just means that we need to find a better
way to discipline him. So that's very scary to me,
this sense that like there's there's no sense of consequence
and there is very little, you know, rigorous thinking of
you know, how do we how do we discipline and
offer consequence. Maybe we don't expel fifty black kids from
(15:57):
a school of Queen's en Mass, but do suspend them
for a period of time and we give them a
very serious warning and we bring in their parents, and
maybe we do it slightly publicly. I don't know. But
this is a moment where we have to think harder.
We have to make harder decisions, harder choices, We have
to work harder, not just dispense with our responsibility as citizens.
Speaker 1 (16:18):
Yeah, absolutely, I think that I think suspension was sort
of where I end up on it.
Speaker 3 (16:23):
I mean, they're dumb.
Speaker 1 (16:25):
Kids, and you know, the race to me is sort
of irrelevant. If it was, you know, a bunch of
Jewish kids locking a black teacher in a room, I
would feel the same way. I think they need consequence.
I also just think that we're seeing a breakdown of
everything everywhere.
Speaker 3 (16:42):
Not just in schools, not just for Jews.
Speaker 1 (16:46):
You know, I think that we've gotten to where we
see a consequence free society. I think, like the shoplifting
mobs or any of this stuff, we're not seeing people
have the consequences of their actions, and I think that
makes other people think, well, why do I have to
abide by the rules. So to me, it's if they
don't follow up and if they don't deal with a
(17:08):
lot of the different issues that we're facing, I think
we're just gonna that really just encourages other people to
get worse worse behavior, and that's what we're gonna end
up seeing. So one of the questions that I ask
all of my guests is what do you think is
our largest cultural or societal problem in the in America?
Speaker 3 (17:27):
And do you think it's solvable?
Speaker 2 (17:30):
I mean, I think it goes to what you were
just talking about, this lack of consequence, this this lack
of accountability. I mean, we now live in a world
where maybe it's because I mean I hate this idea
of like, you know, traditional family values, but you know
most of folks.
Speaker 3 (17:41):
From traditional family values.
Speaker 2 (17:45):
Yeah, you know, it takes a different way. Like you know,
I would say that my mom was a single mom,
but she was someone's very traditional. My my kids are
being raised by two dads, and there were you know,
especially the other one. He couldn't be more traditional, I mean,
like fashion. So yeah, it's not necessarily about you know, mom,
(18:07):
dad married in a house with a white pick of
fans watching, you know, leave it de Beaver. It's about
the sense of integrity in the family structure and accountability
and compassion and and and and that's all broken down,
I mean, you know, and particularly it's made worse by
the fact that, you know, our children spend so much
time on on machines and tablets, and you know, and
(18:30):
and and also in a way we as parents have
been lulled a bit, you know, because we our kids
are now so fluent with with with tablets. Sometimes we
don't really know what they're watching on tea. For some
of the messages, messages they're getting to. They have these like,
you know, crazy words coming out of their mouths, and
we wonder why saying these words, because we were not
paying attention while they were watching too. But I think
(18:51):
it goes back to what you were saying. We're living
in this culture of a consequence less culture in every
sense of the word, whether it's the shoplifting, the homelessness,
you know, the drug use that sort of encourage right
now as part of the harm reduction programs or housing
first programs that really say that, really say to folks,
to many folks, you're entitled to these kinds of social dispensation,
(19:15):
any accountability, without any sense of legitimacy or accomplishment. And again,
also I think we're talking about is and this really
speaks to I think the social justice movements in woke
culture is that it's it's a you are endowing people
or you are presenting people with a sense of legitimacy
(19:36):
and accomplishment and achievement where none really exists. You know,
you're saying this person is a leader because you know
their lived experience, because they've have a unique because of
a lived experience as opposed to which is important, don't
get me wrong, Like a refugee who's gone through war
and Darfur has a very unique lived experience that we
should be hearing about as part of conversation about you know,
(20:00):
the refugee experience, but we should also be hearing about
people who work in the UN and you know, work
for global refugee refugee organizations and maybe somebody who has
a PhD in refugees, like, it's not We've gone to
a point where it used to be a balance of
people presenting the reality, presenting UH history presenting UH current politics,
(20:20):
but now it's just the lived experiences. So people are
sort of self appointed experts in topics they know nothing about,
and we're kind of forced to listen to them because,
you know, because of corporate white guilt or because of
you know, if you don't, you don't affirm these people,
you'll be canceled. So again it goes back to this
idea of there's all of this sort of uh this this, this, this,
(20:44):
this dispersion of legitimacy, of accomplishment, of expertise by people
who actually have none of it. And when you call
them on this, when you call them and say, why
should I be listening to you? You know, why should
I be listening to a black social justice warrior about Palestine?
(21:06):
Number one? What does she have to say about Palatine?
And more apportantly, besides being black, what does she have
to say about black social justice? You know what I mean? Like,
why are these people in charge? Who who put these
people in charge? Why are we listening to them? And
why are we so afraid to ask why we're listening
to them. I think that's the problem.
Speaker 1 (21:24):
We're going to take a quick break and be right
back on the Carol Marcowitch Show. How do we move
away from listening to people who don't know anything about anything,
and you know, moving towards not treating identity as you know,
an explanation for anything.
Speaker 3 (21:43):
I can tell you.
Speaker 1 (21:44):
I was a refugee to this country when I was
a small child. Nobody's looking at looking at me for
a refugee advice or thoughts. So how do we move
away from, you know, treating people's lived experience as the
whole story.
Speaker 3 (21:57):
Yeah, I mean, you know, I talk about it.
Speaker 2 (21:59):
I do.
Speaker 3 (22:00):
I talk about my family's immigration experience.
Speaker 1 (22:03):
And how that differs wildly from the immigration that we
have now, and things like that. But it's interesting that
you say, you know, we listen to all these people
who really don't have any depth to their knowledge, and
I just want to know what you think we can
do to break that.
Speaker 2 (22:19):
Yeah. So, I think the most important thing especially I
mean everybody, but I think especially for Jews right now,
who exist in a state of kind of like, you know,
total abject collective moral failure by the rest of by
progressive society. I think what we do is we just
stop listening to them. We just say we're not going
to do it anymore, you know. Like I was, I
was on a podcast a couple of weeks ago, and
(22:40):
someone said to me, what happens when you know they
those groups want us back at the table, you know,
right right, all passes. I was like, we don't go,
you know, we we we at home, We make it,
we get ridden. Yeah, we say we're not going to
that table anymore. We actually make our own tables, you know,
(23:01):
and we say, if you want to, if you want
if you want us, if you want to be part
of you know, our collective, you know, our collective intellect
and social justice, passion and money, you come, you come
to us and will see what's happening. But I also
think again this is a little bit, you know, specific
to Jewish groups, but you know, I think that you know,
Jewish groups have been such a foundation and pillar of
(23:23):
progressive society since you know, forever, since Jews came here
as part of Jewish culture. To be progressive, to be philanthropic,
to want to help, to want to tokun olam, to
fix the world. This is what we do. This is
what makes us choose. So we have this inherent tendency
to be do gooders and which is a very good thing.
And also we've been sort of bamboozled into thinking that
(23:48):
because Jews are supposedly white, which I'm not white and
I'm Jewish, left not true, that our that on the
sort of hierarchy of oppression. We're at the lowest level.
So we should be looking out for ourselves. Well that's
stops now, you know. When we how do we fix
this the current situation? I think we turn inward, you know,
we start, we start, we start really really really you know,
(24:10):
dominating and firmly establishing our own tables, you know, and
we we are we maybe become a bit selfish, and
we say we're going to focus on Jewish issues right
now because it's not safe to be a Jew right
now in this world, and we need to protect ourselves.
And I think another thing to say is that, you know,
I I've never really been kind of like a political
(24:32):
guy in my life before October seventh. That was never political.
I was not. I kind of felt like just being
me in the world was political enough, you know, like
walking through the street as a black Jewish gay guy
with two kids. It's like, that's enough. I don't need
to do that. Completely. Yeah, changed, completely changed after October seventh,
and I became very vocal and outspoken on my social
(24:55):
media platforms and in many of the articles I wrote.
And one thing that I was really surprised, and I
for I knew this, but I was really heartened by
so many other different kinds of Jews, you know, Latin
Jews and Asian Jews and just all this bigger world
of Jews I was particularly connected to because I wasn't
a particularly you know, organizational Jew. I was just kind
(25:15):
of me, you know. So I've been I've been connected
to this whole world of Jews out there that's been
beautiful and wonderful. And it's occurred to me that, you know,
in our Jewish quest to participate in identity and social
justice and things like that, like, well, we have all
these things in Judaism itself. We have Jews of color,
(25:36):
we have feminist Jews, we have queer Jews, we have
you know, all kinds of Jews that fit into the
rubric of identity movements, intersectionality. Instead of wasting our collective
Jewish energy outside of Judaism. Supporting BLM. I'm supporting support
Jews of color, support queers of color. Sorry, support Jewish
(25:57):
Jewish gay people. Support, support Jews that are want if
you want to support you know, unsung people, what we
have plenty of them in Judaism. Support them. Look inward,
you know what I mean. I mean this way to
do as Jews.
Speaker 3 (26:14):
Yeah, I was gonna say, for.
Speaker 1 (26:15):
For a Jewish Conservative like me, it's it's been good
to see sort of Jews on the left, you know,
the ones who I would say I normally didn't have
a lot in common with, kind of wake up to
the threat because it is a threat for all of us.
It's not just you know, it's not just going to
be some one type of Jew that that they target
or another type of Jew. I think what we've seen
(26:36):
is that it's it's all across the board.
Speaker 3 (26:39):
I have to say.
Speaker 1 (26:39):
Also, takun Olam is the biggest tell usually that you're
about to enter some like you know, super super left
congregation or I think you know, Jewish conservatives definitely have
jokes about the takun Olam, which for listeners who don't
know it means.
Speaker 3 (26:54):
Heal the world, which listen, we're all for healing the world.
Speaker 1 (26:57):
But anyone who kind of you know that leads with that,
I think it's always to us a tell that Judaism
is less of a concern for that place.
Speaker 3 (27:06):
So I wanted to ask you.
Speaker 2 (27:09):
Yeah, one quick thing is that if we're going to
you know, if we're going to correct, if we're going
to fix the world, let's fix our world first. Yeah. No,
our world as Jews needs fixing. We've spent too much
time trying to fix the rest of the world, and
now when there was time for them to come help
(27:29):
fix ourselves, they completely abandon us. So when I'm trying yeah,
all these Jewish values, put them back on Jews. Leave
the rest of the world alone for now. They can
take care of themselves because they're not taking care of us.
Speaker 3 (27:44):
Right, and we can't wait for anybody to take care
of us.
Speaker 1 (27:46):
I think that's also been the message of the last
you know, almost two.
Speaker 3 (27:51):
Months or I think that, you know.
Speaker 1 (27:54):
One of the other things that I ask a lot
of my guests is you have a great career, you
have a beautiful family, You've you know, got it all
going on.
Speaker 3 (28:04):
Do you feel like you've made it.
Speaker 2 (28:07):
I mean, I'd like some more money. I'll be off.
I haven't written.
Speaker 3 (28:10):
Send David Kaufman more money.
Speaker 2 (28:14):
I could be you know, send me go fund me.
I have enough for now find it. I haven't written
a book yet, a book yet. I want to write
a book. I wanted to tell more about my life
and my unique family background, and I think it could
be I think a lot of people would find a lot,
a lot of identity identification in it. I come from
a really interesting background. You My mom is the daughter
(28:35):
of European Yiddish speaking Jews, and my father is a
Southern Texan black guy. They met as hippies in California
and here I am. So, you know, I think that
there's a lot there that I think it could help
folks struggling to find a place in the world, because
I think we're all I am still trying to figure
out who I am. So I like to write a book.
And I also I feel like, especially after October seventh,
(28:56):
like I feel like I've been sort of awakened a
bit in a sense that you know, I think the
Jews right now, I don't a lot of Jews don't
know what to do or how to do or where
to turn. I think a lot of Jews are very
afraid to speak out. They're afraid of being branded a racist.
They're afraid of calling BLM or queer groups or feminist
(29:17):
groups on their s h I T. I don't know
which we can swear here, but like you know, I
think that like a lot of a lot of progressive
Jews and who are really really disappointed and sad right now,
are really scared to call black groups ship and say
why aren't you supporting They're afraid of being called racist.
(29:37):
And I'm here to say, as as someone who's black
and jew ers, like you know, let that go. We
don't the time that you know, I wrote in the
Ford a couple of weeks ago, the time for respectability
is over. Like like we're finding that, thank you. There's
no need to mince words anymore. Like we we we
(29:57):
have nothing left to lose because we lost thousands and
we still have hundreds literally lost in Gaza, you know,
kidnapped by horrible people who could very well be you know,
be Pharaoh, murder them tomorrow. So the idea that we
need to sit around and accommodate and be worried and
be worried what we're going to say and offending people.
(30:17):
No more, no more, band all you want, Yeah, banned
all you want. Because what's more offensive than being gang
raped in a kibbutz by Hamas terrorists? What's more offensive
than women seeing their children murdered in front of him?
What's more offensive than a man who thought his child
had been kidnapped by Hamas and said he was he
(30:39):
would have he would have wished, he would have more,
wished death upon her, but then to get his child back.
You know what's more offensive than a ten month old
baby now eleven eleven months being held in captivity and
possibly dead. Like that's offensive. That's offensive to me, right, Elma,
they're bullshit, that's notive.
Speaker 3 (31:00):
Yeah, the shots you can get on social media.
Speaker 2 (31:03):
You know, yeah, take it, take the shots, you know,
that's right. But at the end of the day, like
we're fighting for our lives here. I mean that we
the folks who want to kill us, they've already killed
many of us, and they will kill us again. So
there's no mystery about what could happen out there, and
there's this is no time to worry about what people
(31:25):
think about us. We know what people think about us,
They think shit about us and want us to be
drowned in the sea. You know.
Speaker 1 (31:34):
Yeah, No, I think that's such a great point that
the people who are afraid of bad comments on social
media like need to grow a pair and understand that
there's so much more, you know, at risk here than
somebody calling your names on your Instagram or Facebook or
you know, the coworker that you had ten years ago
standing you know with Palestine in your comment section. Is
(31:55):
the worst it's going to get for you. So be
braver and don't be afraid to say what you really think.
Speaker 2 (32:02):
Yeah, but I'm I'm also I'm also you know, fed
up with you know, with the people who are silent.
I mean, there's so many of my Jewish friends who
are kind of fancy and have little fancy, fancy lives
and you know, going to fancy events and so posting
what they're wearing Dallas on Instagram and I'm like, what
the fuck? You know what I mean? Like that that's over,
(32:24):
that's over, you know what I mean, That period's over?
Like do you you know you can you can hide
behind your you know, fancy Hampton's houses. All you want
were rich, you know, rich deep poppeted Jews. But eventually
the bad guys will come and they will burn those
houses down. We saw it in nineteen thirty, nineteen forty,
We've seen it throughout history. Like when the bad guys
(32:46):
are coming to get us, they will get us. You
cannot hide. So I'm also just very disappointed with so
many of kind of the Jews I see on Instagram
still acting as if you know it was October six.
It's like, yeah, I don't want to see your parties
or your baking more. You know, It's it's offensive.
Speaker 1 (33:03):
Right, especially when you when you don't speak out, especially
when you're silent and you just pretend that everything's fine.
I think that that's that has been really offensive. And
I know exactly the kind of people that you're talking about.
I feel like I can talk to you for a while,
but I'm gonna let's end here with your best tip
for my listeners on how they can improve their lives,
(33:24):
because this is a show about living, and I'd love
to hear your thoughts.
Speaker 2 (33:27):
But is basically basically it's a bit of a cliche,
but at the end of the day, never live in fear.
And I take this from my mom you know who she's.
You know, she's a complicated person. But I think about
(33:48):
her being, you know, a thirty something year old white
Jewish woman many years ago with these two brown kids,
and how she existed in the world even though it
was northern California much more progressive, you know, it still
was like the seventies and eighties, you know. And I remember, like,
you know, she would take us on vacations all over
California and drive and once you left San Francisco, California
(34:11):
became much more conservative. And I remember, like, you know,
we never I never felt afraid with my mom growing
up as we traversed the world. And I know she
we haven't spoken about it so much, but I know
like she must have felt afraid of times, Like I
was thinking, like what would happen when we were, you know,
driving through rural California she had to stop and get gas,
(34:35):
you know, this single white woman with these two brown kids,
and like there must have been I mean, I'm afraid
sometimes today still, you know what I mean. But she
never ever transmitted that fear onto us. I never felt
insecure as a child with my mom, which is really
a testament to her and what I'm trying to say,
is like, go through life not ignoring fear, but never
(34:58):
giving into it. Never give me into the fear. Like
it's a bit of a cliche say, don't live in fear. Well,
we have fear. We can't, we can't pretend like we do.
And some things are the moms are scary. But never
give into the fear. Never. That's one thing I will
say about myself, like, I do live in fear sometimes,
you know, but I don't give into the fear. And
I think about my mom and like when she was
(35:19):
raising us that there must have been a lot of
she must have many moments she was afraid, you know,
existing in the world as who she was with my
sister and I, But I never felt her transmitting that
fear onto us, and I never felt insecure. And I
have such respect for her for that. So I guess
what it is is acknowledge fear, embrace it, tackle it,
(35:42):
but never never, never give into it. That way, the
bigause of failure is giving it to fear.
Speaker 3 (35:47):
I love that. Don't surrender to your fear. Thank you
so much for coming on, David. I love talking to you.
Thank you for listening to the Carol Marcowich Show.
Speaker 1 (35:55):
Subscribe wherever you get your podcasts.
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