December 11, 2023 • 31 mins
In this episode, Karol discusses the lack of basic life skills in younger generations and the need for practical education. She then interviews Mark Hemingway, senior writer at Real Clear Investigations, about his views on education, family values, and maintaining a successful marriage. They also discuss their love for humor, their favorite comedians, and the impact of technology on culture. Hemingway expresses concern about the fragmentation of culture and the spiritual crisis among young men. The Karol Markowicz Show is part of the Clay Travis & Buck Sexton Podcast Network - new episodes debut every Monday & Thursday.
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Episode Transcript
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Speaker 1 (00:05):
Hi, and welcome back to the Carol Markowitz Show on iHeartRadio.
We're tough on the younger generations, I admit it. They
just seem so inept.
Speaker 2 (00:16):
A lot of the time.
Speaker 1 (00:17):
They post stuff about quote adulting, and it's just ridiculous
stuff that they don't know how to do, like mail
a letter or register to vote or something. I saw
one the other day that I actually felt bad for him. Here,
let's roll it.
Speaker 3 (00:31):
Somebody please tell me why. I just got back from
somebody's house and they didn't have any of their curtains up,
and they were like, don't mind me just washing the curtains? What?
And you know, I didn't want to look dumb, you know,
so I was like, Hey, when that happens, are we
supposed to be doing that?
Speaker 4 (00:50):
How often?
Speaker 3 (00:51):
Why are we washing them? How often are we supposed
to do that? And what other adult thing do I
not know because I'm at my max adulting.
Speaker 1 (00:59):
I don't have curtains, and I don't think I ever have.
But I didn't know you were supposed to watch them either.
I think actually the reason I don't have them is
sort of a germophobe, and I just find heavy material
hanging around to be a collector of dust and dirt.
You know, kind of gross. But I digress. We've all
read the think pieces about how millennials and now Gen
(01:20):
Z don't know how to do adulting as a verb.
Our next step needs to actually be to do something
about a generation of people and the generation behind them,
who don't know how to live in the adult world.
We need to bring back useful classes in our schools
that will teach the necessary life skills to young people.
I hear from parents all the time about how their
(01:42):
kids are just not functioning and they've hit you know,
twenty twenty five, thirty, and they don't know how to
do basic things.
Speaker 2 (01:50):
Kids used to take classes like shop.
Speaker 1 (01:52):
And home economics, where they learned woodwork and cooking and
other things. It wasn't considered condescending to teach them these
basic skills which allow them to function as more competent
adults outside of school. Perhaps previous generations were able to
adult better because their parents and teachers took the time
to show them how to do it. We've talked about
these generations also lacking social skills, and millennials and the
(02:16):
younger generations after them they have no real social skills
because they have limited social interactions. Social media has made
people so withdrawn from others that you know, some studies
show a full twenty percent of young people reporting they
have no friends at all. They're the first generation that
grew up on the internet. It makes sense that their
social skills aren't where they should be. And you know,
(02:38):
we tisk tisk at them, but we stare at our
own phones and we should be teaching them some lessons instead.
People also used to take etiquette classes, sometimes at their
actual school, to teach them things like table manners and
how to answer the phone. Times have changed and it's
less important now to know which fork.
Speaker 2 (02:55):
To use at dinner.
Speaker 1 (02:56):
And you know, nobody has a communal home phone anymore.
But they teaching kids how to behave in society should
still be done. Look, parents are busy.
Speaker 2 (03:05):
I get it.
Speaker 1 (03:05):
I'm busy, and that's often the real reason why young
people can't manage healthy adulthood. No one is at home
to teach them how to do it. It's not a
judgment on household with two working parents. I mean again,
we are a family of too working parents. But it
is an explanation of why younger people have such a
hard time functioning. If your kid hits eighteen and doesn't
(03:28):
know how to mail a letter, it's very likely because.
Speaker 2 (03:30):
You haven't taught them.
Speaker 1 (03:32):
So much of what we do should be reprioritized around
helping our kids become functioning adults who can do the
you know, adulting. We get caught up in other minutia
and don't work enough to produce capable people who can
do basic tasks. Make it a habit to teach your
kids one new task every few days, or explain something
boring like yes, how washing curtains gets done, and then
(03:55):
explain it to me because I don't get it either.
Coming up next an interview with Mark kemingh Join us
after the break. Hi, and welcome back to the Carol
Markowitz Show on iHeartRadio. My guest today is Mark Hemingway.
Mark is a senior writer at Real Clear Investigations and
an editor at The Federalist. Thank you so much for being.
Speaker 4 (04:18):
On, Mark, Hey, thanks for having me on.
Speaker 1 (04:21):
I'm going to start with something that I've mentioned to
you in the past, but I am very wowed by
your kids. You have two teenage girls. They are smart, kind, responsible,
but also like funny, real people.
Speaker 2 (04:35):
They're not just like you know, perfect robots.
Speaker 1 (04:37):
They're really wonderful and they're just really good and it's obvious.
Speaker 2 (04:42):
So how did you do it?
Speaker 5 (04:44):
Ah, well, that's a really good question, I am when
I figure that out. You know, I should probably write
a book about it. Yes, very very kind of you
just say that about my kids, and that's sad that
you know my kids. Your kids are wonderful as well.
I think that, but.
Speaker 2 (05:00):
I would say see that.
Speaker 1 (05:01):
The thing is that, like I think, I agree, I
think my kids are good. But that's why I think I'm.
Speaker 2 (05:06):
Just extra wowed by your kids.
Speaker 1 (05:08):
I think that they're fantastic, and I you know, I
feel like I have a barometer for that.
Speaker 4 (05:14):
Well, yeah, maybe so, And it is true.
Speaker 5 (05:16):
I would say that something a switch kind of flipped,
I think in the last ten or twenty years. I mean,
I think culturally it was actually going back further than that,
because the sort of homeschooling classical education revival really happened
in the in sort of the mid nineties. And that's
for a lot of reasons. I mean, there was a
lot of cultural factors that led to that, and you know,
(05:38):
it was also the internet coming online. You know, you
just school or something like that, Like curricular materials and
things like that, we're very you know, hard to obtain.
You'd be like ordering from some dodgy catalog and you
wouldn't be sure you can like the materials until you've
got them or whatever.
Speaker 4 (05:53):
It was.
Speaker 5 (05:54):
Education was a much more complicated process, and the reality
is that until you start getting into the later stages
of high school, education is not rocket science. And I
think that what a lot of parents in our situation,
that people that are attuned to what's going on in
the culture, you know, brought more broadly in terms of
being concerned about the values and the direction of politics
(06:16):
and things like that. My wife and I just put
a lot of effort into making sure our kids got
a proper education, aside from the fact that I think
that we both came from good moral backgrounds on our own.
But you know, both my wife and I went to
public schools. You know, nobody ever thought anything of it.
You know, I went to public university as well, and
I look back on a lot of that experience in
the nineties when I was you know, going to high
(06:37):
school and college, and it was pretty horrifying in a
lot of ways. You know, there was a lot of
degeneracy and other things like that, and not that I
was always on the straight and narrow path in that
regard or even you know, cared that much about it.
But when I look back at it, I think, oh,
that was really bad. So by the time we had kids,
we just decided that we were going to invest a
lot in their education in particular, and we were fortunately
(07:00):
a few things. For seventeen years, I was on the
board of my Lutheran Church's classical school, which you know,
over the course of my I was actually on the
board of the school because before we ever been married
and had kids, just as a member of the congregation.
So I got really invested in education early in terms
of what worked in terms of curriculum, what the right
environment for your kids should be, and that sort of thing.
(07:22):
And so they went to a classical school K through
eight at my my Lutheran Church and now they're in
a wonderful opus day run Catholic all girls high school
that is just a remarkable institution. And those and I
think these school the schooling in the school environment had
a lot to do with it. They were taught like
very correct principles, you know, they were taught things like
(07:42):
informal logic and how to spot fallacies and things that,
like they just don't teach in public schools anymore. Like
and then of course, you know, I think really education
is fundamentally a moral act. You know, whether it's your
education is being backed by you know, a church or
in particular theology, or whether it's being you know, backed
(08:04):
by you know, some sort of effort at home. You
have to fill that void. Like, if you're sending your
kid to public school, it's not that they're not getting
a moral or religious education. They absolutely are. It's just
the question is what are the morals or religion that
they're being taught. And if the only morality they're getting
in schools is global warming and anti bullying, yeah, and
(08:25):
you know, respect trans people and whatever else, then I
think that you're doing a disservice to children, and we're
seeing the fruits of that.
Speaker 2 (08:34):
Yeah.
Speaker 1 (08:34):
I fully agree they're being filled in with some values.
It's just which ones are they. And if you're not,
you know, corresponding to those values at home, you should
get them out of that educational setting.
Speaker 2 (08:46):
I think that's so important.
Speaker 1 (08:48):
So you also have one of the best marriages I've
ever seen you and your wife hold hands.
Speaker 2 (08:53):
Everywhere you go. It's clear that you really like each other.
So how do you keep that going?
Speaker 3 (08:59):
Uh?
Speaker 2 (08:59):
Wow, I know I'm going to start with some easy questions.
Speaker 5 (09:04):
Well, I mean, I think the answer is to take
my long winded answer on on education and kids and
distill that down and applies to this. The short answer is,
you have put a lot of thought into it. I
also think that though just there's a couple of things
there though with the marriage one, are there some things
(09:26):
that like, I just it's hard to take credit for
in the sense that oh, go ahead, No, I just
mean that there's there's some providence involved, you know, and
the divine or otherwise, you know. I people, it's to
to paraphrase Harvey Dent, you either die a hero or
(09:46):
you live long enough that people ask you to give
young people advice. And I'm like, I'm at this stage
when life where people are constantly asking me to come
talk to kids, and like, this is one of these
things where if I'm talking to young kids, I always
I don't care what the topic is. I don't care
that they asked me to talk about journalism. I talk
to them about Hey, what are you doing to get
squared away, to get married and have a family and
do all the things that are going to sustain you
(10:07):
and make you happy in addition to these other career things,
because guess what, the career isn't going to go well
for you if you're not taking care of the other stuff.
So I think that that's focusing on that is really important.
So anyway, the point is is that I basically I
give kids two pieces of advice, which is that if
you figure out what you want to do for a living,
(10:29):
and you figure out what sort of vocation you can
do day in and day out to you know, put
a roof over your head that you enjoy doing every day,
and you figure out who you're going to marry and
who's going to make you happy and a sustained, committed,
lifelong relationship. You get those two decisions right. You get
those two decisions right, you can be degenerate in about
(10:50):
twenty different ways, and things are probably going to work
out for you. If as long as you've got those
two commitments working for you.
Speaker 1 (10:57):
You can probably better degenerated different It was just a
case where anybody's listening and deciding on you know, don't
be an alcoholic.
Speaker 5 (11:06):
But but you know what I'm saying, you can get
through a lot of serious problems. And I don't care
how good your marriage is or how good your career is.
Life's going to throw you a lot of curve balls
and there's gonna be a lot of things that you
have to sort of overcome. And so from a very
early age, I like the time I was, you know, fourteen,
fifteen sixteen, I knew I want to be a writer.
(11:27):
I've been doing been a professional writer, interesting jobs along
the way. That's another story, but but that's if I
pursued that single mindedly, and it's worked out for me
and I've been very happy. And then the second thing
that happened to me was my first day of my
first job in Washington, DC after graduating from college in Oregon.
We had an all staff meeting the building. Molly walked in.
(11:47):
I literally like did like head on a swivel thing,
literally like I pointed to her and like that was it.
Like I don't know how I knew, but I knew.
And people that know me and Molly would testify to
this and she would be correct that I have the
emotional attenuation of a piece of sheet rock. So I
don't know, how is it that I immediately knew that
she was the one when she like basically walked into
(12:08):
a room, you know, there was a general vibe or whatever, and.
Speaker 4 (12:13):
I quickly, you know.
Speaker 5 (12:14):
But I should also add that that was in August
of nineteen ninety nine when I first saw her. We
didn't get married n till September two thousand and six. Okay,
so you know, smooth sanding all the way while. But
I but I, but we discovered along the way, and
I think it took Molly more effort on her part
to realize this than that did me. Not to say
(12:38):
that I didn't contribute to the problems here, but we
had extremely similar worldviews, you know, in the sense that
we're both very worldly people but also very sort of
concerned with more morality. Like we're both people who can
kind of exist in the world and all its fullness
and you know, degeneracy as it were, and try and
(13:00):
see a moral path through that, and hopefully, in terms
of our vocation as writers, be people that can sort
of illuminate that path and point out like this is
what's going on. You know, you know, we can we're
strong enough in terms of character that we can wallow
in it. And I think, at the end of the day,
the fact that we have such a similar worldview in
that regard, you know, you know, it's not like we
agree on everything hardly right, And the other thing is
(13:22):
just simply that she's obviously brilliant, and I had never
met another girl who just sustained my interest so fully
and completely. I remember one point in one of our
Mary spirits that we were off. I dated this girl
who I had no business dating because she was so
much more attractive than I deserved. But like being with
(13:43):
her was like watching paint peel for me. I mean,
it was just like I couldn't do it. And Molly
never a dull moment with her, as you probably imagine.
Speaker 1 (13:51):
Yeah, she really is amazing. You're one of my favorite writers.
I've told you this before. How did you get into it? No,
it's true. I mean, I you know, preparing for this interview,
I got to like go back and read a bunch
of things that you've written that I really like loved
over the years. I don't know those that that one
from San Francisco that you wrote for The Washington Examiner
about like you know, being propositioned by a prostitute while
(14:15):
at the same time, like a homeless man is I
don't know, screaming into a.
Speaker 2 (14:18):
Shoe box or something like that.
Speaker 1 (14:20):
And then somebody another, another homeless person, tried to take
food off your plate at the restaurant.
Speaker 2 (14:24):
I just you know, I just love that.
Speaker 5 (14:29):
All really happened to me my last trip to San Francisco,
and that was pre pandemic. I mean, like, I you know,
I went from Oregon, like I, I can't begin to
tell you what, but uh, every web major West Coast
city and how bad it is.
Speaker 4 (14:41):
But anyway, I guess it's a story for another matter.
Speaker 2 (14:43):
We'll get into that.
Speaker 4 (14:44):
That's that's for the writer's stuff. I don't know what
to say.
Speaker 5 (14:49):
I was, according to my mother, was very verbal from
a very early age, and I taught myself to read
well before I was in school, and I was just
obsessed with books growing up. My parents are recently well educated.
They both have graduate degrees. But my parents are very
interesting people. My dad was a retired Marine colonel who
(15:11):
was five years old living in Pearl Harbor when his
palm and lived all the all over the world news
a kid and had been all over the world in
the military and worked for the CIA and done all
this exciting stuff, even though I was raised in the
middle of nowhere and what was at the time pretty
you know, rural ish Oregon, I would say, and my mom,
I don't know what to say. My mother comes from
the most insane, eccentric family. So there was just a
(15:35):
lot of color in my life. I wouldn't describe it
all as very very good. I mean, there was a
lot of insanity, frankly, you know, in terms of uh,
I don't know, just family drama and other things like that.
So as much as I hate to I hate all that,
(15:56):
it's also true that kind of environment sort of fosters
creative people.
Speaker 4 (15:59):
I think, fortunately right, And I don't know, I like I.
Speaker 5 (16:04):
Said, I grew up in rural Oregon, and I wrote
a rurali ish organ like with three and a half
hours outside of Portland and Oregon, which is now a
big ski resort and a very fancy, nice place to be.
When I knew there was eighteen thousand people and it
was there was no airport, and it was crazy. So
when I like, when I was in high school and
you know, me and all my friends had to get
really creative to like basically entertain ourselves, and it was
(16:24):
always involved in creative pursuits and played in bands in
high school. And I just I always loved reading and
I was writing from a very early age. And it
was pretty clear I had some sort of natural talent
for it. Like I'm a lot funnier in print than
I am in person.
Speaker 2 (16:37):
I think you're pretty funny in person.
Speaker 5 (16:38):
Well, thank you, but uh, and so I just you know,
it was it was, it was clear, it was easy.
But I think just a lot of reading, you know,
it was with an early age, and I was always
attracted to creative writers, if that makes sense, Like I'm
not creative writing, but creative writers who are creative more creative.
So like I was, you know, things like I was
(17:00):
reading Hunter s. Thompson a way too early in age.
Things like that. You know, David Foster Wallace was a
big fan. I was a big fan of in college
and people that were doing interesting funny.
Speaker 1 (17:09):
Yeah, Funny I think is so important and I think
it's so overlooked, especially like in our political, politicized universe.
I think people don't try to be funny, and that's unfortunate.
Speaker 5 (17:19):
I was just about to say that. I remember was
in high school at some point and my dead head
sister was like, here, you'll like this, and she like
threw me a copy of PGR Rourke's Parliament of Whrores
when I was like fifteen or sixteen, And I mean,
that is such a brilliant book. It's so funny, and
it's so quotable, and you know, it's his PGR works
(17:41):
book on it's called a lone Humor's attempts to explain
the entire US government, and it's so universally true in
terms of its observations about bureaucracy and other things like that.
I mean, it's great, although it is funny to reread
it because it was written in like nineteen eighty seven
and it's like, you know, can you believe the dead
is one billion dollars?
Speaker 4 (17:59):
You know?
Speaker 1 (18:01):
Uh?
Speaker 5 (18:01):
But uh yeah, the humor was was was really really
big for me in that respect, and it's like even
now I'm obsessed with humor, but like I have extremely
high standards for it. Like I can't just watch stand up,
Like it's got to be someone.
Speaker 4 (18:14):
Who's really good.
Speaker 2 (18:15):
Who's your favorite right now?
Speaker 5 (18:18):
That's a really good question. Shane Gillis is great, yeah,
and Anthony Gizelnik just kills me, even though he's like
just basically wicked. But his ability to craft jokes that
you don't where you don't expect the punchline is just unbelievable.
And of course Dave Chappelle from a literary perspective, I
don't think people get what Dave Chappelle does and how
like insanely impressive it is because he does this thing
(18:40):
where he does what they call callbacks, where you're talking,
he'll be talking about something and then like, yeah, he'll
remind you. And his ability to do that so seamlessly
and the mind humor out of that is so sophisticated
and literary. Like I mean that, like, I don't know
what Dave Chappelle's i Q is, but it is very high,
I assure you, right if.
Speaker 2 (19:02):
I can give you a recommendation.
Speaker 1 (19:03):
I don't know if you've heard of him, but Nate
Bergatzi is so he's just my top favorite right now.
And he's completely family friendly, like I didn't even realize
that for the first few shows.
Speaker 2 (19:13):
But no cursing, no like you know, any bad imagery.
He's really great.
Speaker 5 (19:18):
My wife and daughter love him. I don't know. I
mean like I like I said, I have really high
standage for this sort of thing. Yeah, I agree, he
is very funny. It's just he's not enough for me
to sit down and watch forty five.
Speaker 4 (19:29):
Minutes of them.
Speaker 1 (19:30):
Oh I love him, but yeah, okay, try Tennessee kid
if you okay, and.
Speaker 4 (19:35):
I'll check it out.
Speaker 5 (19:36):
But it's also true, like to some extent, people that
are really into humor are like non normal people. Like
this is famous groutch of Marx quote about if you
want to make a normal person laugh, you dress someone
up as an old lady and push them down the stairs.
In order to make a comedian laugh, it's got to
be a real old lady.
Speaker 4 (19:54):
That's you know where.
Speaker 5 (19:55):
I'm at, Like, it's got to be something that's really
you know, not necessarily out there, but something that's like
really on a something that really catches you sort of
surprise in a surprising way.
Speaker 4 (20:06):
Dmitri Martin is another guy I really like.
Speaker 2 (20:08):
I had to look them up.
Speaker 1 (20:10):
We're going to take a quick break and be right
back on the Carol Marcowitch Show. So what's the most
controversial thing you've ever written and do you stand by it.
Speaker 2 (20:22):
So the Taylor.
Speaker 4 (20:23):
Swift it might well be. Yeah.
Speaker 5 (20:27):
I wrote a piece on how the piece was headlined
something like Taylor shows popular is the decline of is?
Speaker 4 (20:34):
What was it?
Speaker 5 (20:34):
Something like is is the decline of Western civilization or
something like that. It was or is a sign of
societal decline? Which, yeah, people really got worked up about that,
And like, strangely enough, earlier in the year, I wrote
a piece about how I was really frustrated that people
were constantly backing in the parking spaces.
Speaker 2 (20:56):
And what are they supposed to do?
Speaker 4 (20:59):
Knows in the parking space.
Speaker 1 (21:00):
Oh yeah, I'm thinking okay, I'm thinking parallel parking. I'm
still you know, New Yorker obviously parking spot.
Speaker 6 (21:06):
Yeah okay, And boy wow, to that backing in the
parking is saying like people and to this day, like
once or twice a week, people often I've never even met,
will come.
Speaker 1 (21:19):
Up I missed that one.
Speaker 5 (21:22):
They have like really strong feelings pro or con backing
in the parking spaces, which is you know, and I
lay out all my reasons for why, and the piece,
I mean like they're you know, but you know the
thing is this, anytime you stay out a position on
like a controversial issue. I mean, if you're being honest,
there's going to be some sort of nuances, like I
don't think Taylor Swift is like a complete hack or
anything like that. And in fact, you know, the problem
(21:44):
is my argument wasn't that, you know, I don't understand
the why Taylor Swift as popular, or that I don't
think she's talented at all. It's more I don't understand
the level to which she's popular relative to the darth
of everything else. And never mind, I do have very
specific criticism of Taylor Swift and her approaches songwriting other
things like that, but like, I don't know, it's it's
weird and I don't know. I guess it goes back
(22:05):
to like the void people are trying to fill with
culture and the absence of you know, in the midst
of socatal decline or having religion or you know, I
don't know, you know, civil civil organizations that would that
they could dedicate themselves to, like people identify as Swifties
more than they do you know, anything else. And it
ends up becoming like a religious war when you criticize
(22:27):
Taylor Swift or how nuanced you try and be about it.
Speaker 1 (22:30):
Well, I kind of get that for teenagers, like my
thirteen year old daughter definitely into Taylor Swift. We joke
about it being a cult, like she waits for dear
Leader to say something to her fans, and but for
grown ups, I'm with you, Like I don't get the
absolute deep, you know, fascination with a pop star's life
and just what's going on with her. I think that
(22:51):
that's like, you know, get a life a little bit.
Speaker 4 (22:54):
So yeah, well.
Speaker 5 (22:56):
I'm I'm a hacked musician too, and like this is
another thing that just bothers me about like what she does.
It's like there's a lot of sophisticated stuff going on
in terms of productions in the Sonics, but so many
of the songs are basically like literally the same chord
changes right, like the same you know, basic you know
music is happening over and over and over again with her,
and like it's one of these things where once you
hear it, you just can't unhear it. But like people
(23:18):
are not willing to. I don't know, it's weird. Again,
As a writer and someone who like takes this stuff
very seriously, like I invest myself, like I can't just
like any old stand up comic, Like I gotta like,
maybe it's maybe I'm being ridiculous. Maybe I have to
that I have to formulate my own sophisticated reasons for
why I can or cannot defend my my my standing
(23:40):
of this particular comedian or musical artists or whatever. But
I do think it's important that people look critically at
the world around them. And you know, look, I'm not
saying you can't just like, you know, tune into some
pop music and enjoy yourself or whatever. But at the
end of the day, I feel like there's got to
be two Culture's got to be operating on two levels.
You know, There's got to be some sort of like
middle brow intellectual level that sustains a culture, the sort
(24:06):
of the lowbrow.
Speaker 4 (24:07):
Stuff, if that makes sense.
Speaker 5 (24:09):
Yeah, if you go back and you listen to pop
music in the eighties, you know, I mean what was
going on was insanely musically sophisticated compared to now, and
I you know, and I think it's just that people
are getting you know, dumber.
Speaker 4 (24:20):
I mean, like the Beatles.
Speaker 5 (24:22):
Beatles are massively, massively popular and like insanely musically sophisticated,
like on bar with Bach in terms of a lot
of the stuff that they were doing well.
Speaker 2 (24:30):
I mean, and they're still huge.
Speaker 1 (24:31):
It's not like people are like, oh, the Beatles suck,
you know, yeah.
Speaker 5 (24:35):
Well no, that's that's true. But like I do worry
about a generation or two out. I mean, like it
is very true that people have reverse engineered a lot
of stuff. You know, it used to be you know,
I don't know, you know, culture was more culture is
more fragmented now, and so I guess what that means
(24:56):
is to the extent that there are things that rise
to the top that everybody quote them quote agrees on
or decides as popular, they tend to be really lowest
common denominator things because I don't know, back in the day,
we used to complain all the time about you know,
various corporate distribution channels for stuff, you know, overlooking the
really quality stuff and going for the dumb down stuff.
But the reality was is the corporate paymasters back then,
(25:18):
they didn't have algorithms to tell them, you know, an
instant real time like Netflix or Spotify does to tell
you what people are liking and what specific second of
the song or movie. And so they were to some
extent guessing and exposing people to stuff that they wouldn't
have otherwise been exposed to, whereas.
Speaker 4 (25:36):
Interesting point, it's all metrics.
Speaker 1 (25:38):
So what would you say, And I ask all of
my guests this, but what would you say is our
largest cultural or societal problem in America?
Speaker 2 (25:46):
And do you think that it's solvable?
Speaker 4 (25:50):
Wow?
Speaker 1 (25:51):
Yeah, I mean again, this is just one of the
questions what's the meaning of life?
Speaker 4 (25:55):
While you're at it.
Speaker 2 (25:57):
It gets harder from here.
Speaker 5 (25:58):
So well, I think basically the problem right now is
that there's a spiritual crisis in the country. And I'm
not saying that necessarily needs to be answered by organized religion,
but like you know, for instance, it's acute among young
men in particular. But you know, people need reasons to
(26:19):
wake up in the morning. You know, they need to
feel like they're engaged in productive work. And with a
lot of the economic changes that have happened in terms
of offshoring, manufacturing jobs and things like that, I mean,
you know, I'm sympathetic to the you know, quote unquote
free market or you know, economic efficiency arguments of certain things,
but at the end of the day, you know, if
(26:39):
you're not providing sustainable jobs for people. Never mind that
there's all kinds of other stuff that's been going on
in terms of you know the fact that these middle
class jobs have all been shipped off, and you know
the income inequality that we're seeing, you know, in terms
of how it's affected things like housing markets and other things.
We really just need to address this sort of you know,
(27:02):
spiritual slash work crisis. You know, people need to know
what they can do to contribute society and feel good
about what they're doing. And it goes back to what
I was saying. You know, like you can figure out
from an early age, you know what job you can
do that's going to sustain you, that you're gonna be
happy to do every day, and you can do that job,
then you know that that solves so many problems in life.
Speaker 4 (27:22):
And so many.
Speaker 5 (27:23):
People, you know, they're whether they're graduating with a liberal
arts degree, you know, two hundred thousand dollars in day, yeah,
and not knowing what to do or whether or not
they you know, grew up in a steel town when
the mill closed forty years ago, and don't know where
to go or what to do with their life. You know,
this is happening across I think all stratu of society. Actually,
(27:46):
you know, people need good jobs and they need to
like know what they can do to contribute to their communities.
Speaker 1 (27:51):
I've never heard that answer before, so that's a good one.
We talked about, you know, your family and your work.
Speaker 2 (27:57):
Do you feel like you've made it?
Speaker 4 (28:02):
Yeah, I mean I have zero.
Speaker 2 (28:05):
Complaints, zero zero complaints.
Speaker 5 (28:10):
Well, I mean I've got lots of superficial complaints, but
they're not complaints at the end of the day that
I can feel good about, you know, the fact that
I made them through the course of the day. I mean,
I have two, you know, beautiful kids that are doing
very well in school and otherwise. I've been married for
seventeen years to someone I'm still very much in love with,
and I have a tremendous respect for. And you know,
(28:33):
I own a home, you know, in terms of and
I you know, and I have money in the bank.
I mean, like, I don't know what more you an
American can ask for. I mean, yeah, there's a lot
of like nice to have things.
Speaker 3 (28:45):
You know.
Speaker 5 (28:45):
My wife and I grew up out West and we've
talked about, you know, maybe someday being able to get
a vacation home in the mountains. But I you know,
these are aspirational things, and as for the day to
day stuff, I really just don't have any sort of,
you know, complaints. I will say that as someone whorew
up in an organ and my wife grow up in Colorado,
we've been in the DC area for a long time
(29:06):
and that presents a lot of unique challenges living here.
I mean, it's expensive, and you know, educating our children
has been like a full time task because of the
surrounding environment and things like that. But I mean, at
the same time, you know, my wife and I are
obviously successful at what we do, and I just can't
complain that things have worked out the way that they have.
Speaker 2 (29:27):
I love that well.
Speaker 1 (29:28):
I've loved talking to you, Mark, and here with your
best tip for my listeners on how they can improve
their lives.
Speaker 4 (29:37):
Oh geez, wow.
Speaker 2 (29:42):
I told you it gets harder from here.
Speaker 5 (29:45):
The best tip I could say would be to there's
a lot of people will give you a lot of
specific advice about you know, avoiding the Internet or this
and that and other things. Do as much as you
can to be connected with real people and like real
things that are happening in real life.
Speaker 4 (30:05):
If that makes sense, Yeah, I mean sort of.
Speaker 5 (30:10):
I just mean that, like, you know, if you need
to talk to someone, you know, arranged to meet them
or call them rather than email them, you know, you know,
make a human connection.
Speaker 4 (30:20):
You know.
Speaker 5 (30:21):
If you can't, if there's a problem in your community
or whatever, you know, go talk to your city councilman.
Like that's how like actual change is made, you know,
whereas it's so much easier to dismiss you know, this
sort of you know, howling into the digital ether.
Speaker 3 (30:36):
Yeah.
Speaker 5 (30:37):
And you know, similarly, you know, get out of the house,
you know, meet people, join social clubs, you know whatever.
You know, make a point of seeing people regularly. And
by the way, I'm telling you this because this is
something like I really struggle with. I mean, this is
I think is the thing that particularly affects middle aged men.
I'm going up to Brooklyn to see a good friend
from high school this weekend. I haven't seen him in like,
(30:59):
you know years. You know, you know, you really have
to make an effort at a certain point in your life. Right,
busy and I got kids and whatever else, but it's
really important that you make the effort not just for you,
but for everyone else and for the community.
Speaker 1 (31:12):
Yeah, I definitely agree to, you know, leaving the house,
leaving the internet all very important and a topic that
I cover a lot on this show.
Speaker 2 (31:21):
Thank you so much for coming on. I'd love talking
to you. Mark Hemingway, Let's read him wherever you can.
He's just amazing and I'm a big fan.
Speaker 4 (31:30):
You're way too kind, Carol, I'm a big fan of
you as well.
Speaker 1 (31:33):
Thanks so much for joining us on the Carol Marcowitch Show.
Subscribe wherever you get your podcasts.
Hi, and welcome back to the Carol Markowitz Show on iHeartRadio.
We're tough on the younger generations, I admit it. They
just seem so inept.
Speaker 2 (00:16):
A lot of the time.
Speaker 1 (00:17):
They post stuff about quote adulting, and it's just ridiculous
stuff that they don't know how to do, like mail
a letter or register to vote or something. I saw
one the other day that I actually felt bad for him. Here,
let's roll it.
Speaker 3 (00:31):
Somebody please tell me why. I just got back from
somebody's house and they didn't have any of their curtains up,
and they were like, don't mind me just washing the curtains? What?
And you know, I didn't want to look dumb, you know,
so I was like, Hey, when that happens, are we
supposed to be doing that?
Speaker 4 (00:50):
How often?
Speaker 3 (00:51):
Why are we washing them? How often are we supposed
to do that? And what other adult thing do I
not know because I'm at my max adulting.
Speaker 1 (00:59):
I don't have curtains, and I don't think I ever have.
But I didn't know you were supposed to watch them either.
I think actually the reason I don't have them is
sort of a germophobe, and I just find heavy material
hanging around to be a collector of dust and dirt.
You know, kind of gross. But I digress. We've all
read the think pieces about how millennials and now Gen
(01:20):
Z don't know how to do adulting as a verb.
Our next step needs to actually be to do something
about a generation of people and the generation behind them,
who don't know how to live in the adult world.
We need to bring back useful classes in our schools
that will teach the necessary life skills to young people.
I hear from parents all the time about how their
(01:42):
kids are just not functioning and they've hit you know,
twenty twenty five, thirty, and they don't know how to
do basic things.
Speaker 2 (01:50):
Kids used to take classes like shop.
Speaker 1 (01:52):
And home economics, where they learned woodwork and cooking and
other things. It wasn't considered condescending to teach them these
basic skills which allow them to function as more competent
adults outside of school. Perhaps previous generations were able to
adult better because their parents and teachers took the time
to show them how to do it. We've talked about
these generations also lacking social skills, and millennials and the
(02:16):
younger generations after them they have no real social skills
because they have limited social interactions. Social media has made
people so withdrawn from others that you know, some studies
show a full twenty percent of young people reporting they
have no friends at all. They're the first generation that
grew up on the internet. It makes sense that their
social skills aren't where they should be. And you know,
(02:38):
we tisk tisk at them, but we stare at our
own phones and we should be teaching them some lessons instead.
People also used to take etiquette classes, sometimes at their
actual school, to teach them things like table manners and
how to answer the phone. Times have changed and it's
less important now to know which fork.
Speaker 2 (02:55):
To use at dinner.
Speaker 1 (02:56):
And you know, nobody has a communal home phone anymore.
But they teaching kids how to behave in society should
still be done. Look, parents are busy.
Speaker 2 (03:05):
I get it.
Speaker 1 (03:05):
I'm busy, and that's often the real reason why young
people can't manage healthy adulthood. No one is at home
to teach them how to do it. It's not a
judgment on household with two working parents. I mean again,
we are a family of too working parents. But it
is an explanation of why younger people have such a
hard time functioning. If your kid hits eighteen and doesn't
(03:28):
know how to mail a letter, it's very likely because.
Speaker 2 (03:30):
You haven't taught them.
Speaker 1 (03:32):
So much of what we do should be reprioritized around
helping our kids become functioning adults who can do the
you know, adulting. We get caught up in other minutia
and don't work enough to produce capable people who can
do basic tasks. Make it a habit to teach your
kids one new task every few days, or explain something
boring like yes, how washing curtains gets done, and then
(03:55):
explain it to me because I don't get it either.
Coming up next an interview with Mark kemingh Join us
after the break. Hi, and welcome back to the Carol
Markowitz Show on iHeartRadio. My guest today is Mark Hemingway.
Mark is a senior writer at Real Clear Investigations and
an editor at The Federalist. Thank you so much for being.
Speaker 4 (04:18):
On, Mark, Hey, thanks for having me on.
Speaker 1 (04:21):
I'm going to start with something that I've mentioned to
you in the past, but I am very wowed by
your kids. You have two teenage girls. They are smart, kind, responsible,
but also like funny, real people.
Speaker 2 (04:35):
They're not just like you know, perfect robots.
Speaker 1 (04:37):
They're really wonderful and they're just really good and it's obvious.
Speaker 2 (04:42):
So how did you do it?
Speaker 5 (04:44):
Ah, well, that's a really good question, I am when
I figure that out. You know, I should probably write
a book about it. Yes, very very kind of you
just say that about my kids, and that's sad that
you know my kids. Your kids are wonderful as well.
I think that, but.
Speaker 2 (05:00):
I would say see that.
Speaker 1 (05:01):
The thing is that, like I think, I agree, I
think my kids are good. But that's why I think I'm.
Speaker 2 (05:06):
Just extra wowed by your kids.
Speaker 1 (05:08):
I think that they're fantastic, and I you know, I
feel like I have a barometer for that.
Speaker 4 (05:14):
Well, yeah, maybe so, And it is true.
Speaker 5 (05:16):
I would say that something a switch kind of flipped,
I think in the last ten or twenty years. I mean,
I think culturally it was actually going back further than that,
because the sort of homeschooling classical education revival really happened
in the in sort of the mid nineties. And that's
for a lot of reasons. I mean, there was a
lot of cultural factors that led to that, and you know,
(05:38):
it was also the internet coming online. You know, you
just school or something like that, Like curricular materials and
things like that, we're very you know, hard to obtain.
You'd be like ordering from some dodgy catalog and you
wouldn't be sure you can like the materials until you've
got them or whatever.
Speaker 4 (05:53):
It was.
Speaker 5 (05:54):
Education was a much more complicated process, and the reality
is that until you start getting into the later stages
of high school, education is not rocket science. And I
think that what a lot of parents in our situation,
that people that are attuned to what's going on in
the culture, you know, brought more broadly in terms of
being concerned about the values and the direction of politics
(06:16):
and things like that. My wife and I just put
a lot of effort into making sure our kids got
a proper education, aside from the fact that I think
that we both came from good moral backgrounds on our own.
But you know, both my wife and I went to
public schools. You know, nobody ever thought anything of it.
You know, I went to public university as well, and
I look back on a lot of that experience in
the nineties when I was you know, going to high
(06:37):
school and college, and it was pretty horrifying in a
lot of ways. You know, there was a lot of
degeneracy and other things like that, and not that I
was always on the straight and narrow path in that
regard or even you know, cared that much about it.
But when I look back at it, I think, oh,
that was really bad. So by the time we had kids,
we just decided that we were going to invest a
lot in their education in particular, and we were fortunately
(07:00):
a few things. For seventeen years, I was on the
board of my Lutheran Church's classical school, which you know,
over the course of my I was actually on the
board of the school because before we ever been married
and had kids, just as a member of the congregation.
So I got really invested in education early in terms
of what worked in terms of curriculum, what the right
environment for your kids should be, and that sort of thing.
(07:22):
And so they went to a classical school K through
eight at my my Lutheran Church and now they're in
a wonderful opus day run Catholic all girls high school
that is just a remarkable institution. And those and I
think these school the schooling in the school environment had
a lot to do with it. They were taught like
very correct principles, you know, they were taught things like
(07:42):
informal logic and how to spot fallacies and things that,
like they just don't teach in public schools anymore. Like
and then of course, you know, I think really education
is fundamentally a moral act. You know, whether it's your
education is being backed by you know, a church or
in particular theology, or whether it's being you know, backed
(08:04):
by you know, some sort of effort at home. You
have to fill that void. Like, if you're sending your
kid to public school, it's not that they're not getting
a moral or religious education. They absolutely are. It's just
the question is what are the morals or religion that
they're being taught. And if the only morality they're getting
in schools is global warming and anti bullying, yeah, and
(08:25):
you know, respect trans people and whatever else, then I
think that you're doing a disservice to children, and we're
seeing the fruits of that.
Speaker 2 (08:34):
Yeah.
Speaker 1 (08:34):
I fully agree they're being filled in with some values.
It's just which ones are they. And if you're not,
you know, corresponding to those values at home, you should
get them out of that educational setting.
Speaker 2 (08:46):
I think that's so important.
Speaker 1 (08:48):
So you also have one of the best marriages I've
ever seen you and your wife hold hands.
Speaker 2 (08:53):
Everywhere you go. It's clear that you really like each other.
So how do you keep that going?
Speaker 3 (08:59):
Uh?
Speaker 2 (08:59):
Wow, I know I'm going to start with some easy questions.
Speaker 5 (09:04):
Well, I mean, I think the answer is to take
my long winded answer on on education and kids and
distill that down and applies to this. The short answer is,
you have put a lot of thought into it. I
also think that though just there's a couple of things
there though with the marriage one, are there some things
(09:26):
that like, I just it's hard to take credit for
in the sense that oh, go ahead, No, I just
mean that there's there's some providence involved, you know, and
the divine or otherwise, you know. I people, it's to
to paraphrase Harvey Dent, you either die a hero or
(09:46):
you live long enough that people ask you to give
young people advice. And I'm like, I'm at this stage
when life where people are constantly asking me to come
talk to kids, and like, this is one of these
things where if I'm talking to young kids, I always
I don't care what the topic is. I don't care
that they asked me to talk about journalism. I talk
to them about Hey, what are you doing to get
squared away, to get married and have a family and
do all the things that are going to sustain you
(10:07):
and make you happy in addition to these other career things,
because guess what, the career isn't going to go well
for you if you're not taking care of the other stuff.
So I think that that's focusing on that is really important.
So anyway, the point is is that I basically I
give kids two pieces of advice, which is that if
you figure out what you want to do for a living,
(10:29):
and you figure out what sort of vocation you can
do day in and day out to you know, put
a roof over your head that you enjoy doing every day,
and you figure out who you're going to marry and
who's going to make you happy and a sustained, committed,
lifelong relationship. You get those two decisions right. You get
those two decisions right, you can be degenerate in about
(10:50):
twenty different ways, and things are probably going to work
out for you. If as long as you've got those
two commitments working for you.
Speaker 1 (10:57):
You can probably better degenerated different It was just a
case where anybody's listening and deciding on you know, don't
be an alcoholic.
Speaker 5 (11:06):
But but you know what I'm saying, you can get
through a lot of serious problems. And I don't care
how good your marriage is or how good your career is.
Life's going to throw you a lot of curve balls
and there's gonna be a lot of things that you
have to sort of overcome. And so from a very
early age, I like the time I was, you know, fourteen,
fifteen sixteen, I knew I want to be a writer.
(11:27):
I've been doing been a professional writer, interesting jobs along
the way. That's another story, but but that's if I
pursued that single mindedly, and it's worked out for me
and I've been very happy. And then the second thing
that happened to me was my first day of my
first job in Washington, DC after graduating from college in Oregon.
We had an all staff meeting the building. Molly walked in.
(11:47):
I literally like did like head on a swivel thing,
literally like I pointed to her and like that was it.
Like I don't know how I knew, but I knew.
And people that know me and Molly would testify to
this and she would be correct that I have the
emotional attenuation of a piece of sheet rock. So I
don't know, how is it that I immediately knew that
she was the one when she like basically walked into
(12:08):
a room, you know, there was a general vibe or whatever, and.
Speaker 4 (12:13):
I quickly, you know.
Speaker 5 (12:14):
But I should also add that that was in August
of nineteen ninety nine when I first saw her. We
didn't get married n till September two thousand and six. Okay,
so you know, smooth sanding all the way while. But
I but I, but we discovered along the way, and
I think it took Molly more effort on her part
to realize this than that did me. Not to say
(12:38):
that I didn't contribute to the problems here, but we
had extremely similar worldviews, you know, in the sense that
we're both very worldly people but also very sort of
concerned with more morality. Like we're both people who can
kind of exist in the world and all its fullness
and you know, degeneracy as it were, and try and
(13:00):
see a moral path through that, and hopefully, in terms
of our vocation as writers, be people that can sort
of illuminate that path and point out like this is
what's going on. You know, you know, we can we're
strong enough in terms of character that we can wallow
in it. And I think, at the end of the day,
the fact that we have such a similar worldview in
that regard, you know, you know, it's not like we
agree on everything hardly right, And the other thing is
(13:22):
just simply that she's obviously brilliant, and I had never
met another girl who just sustained my interest so fully
and completely. I remember one point in one of our
Mary spirits that we were off. I dated this girl
who I had no business dating because she was so
much more attractive than I deserved. But like being with
(13:43):
her was like watching paint peel for me. I mean,
it was just like I couldn't do it. And Molly
never a dull moment with her, as you probably imagine.
Speaker 1 (13:51):
Yeah, she really is amazing. You're one of my favorite writers.
I've told you this before. How did you get into it? No,
it's true. I mean, I you know, preparing for this interview,
I got to like go back and read a bunch
of things that you've written that I really like loved
over the years. I don't know those that that one
from San Francisco that you wrote for The Washington Examiner
about like you know, being propositioned by a prostitute while
(14:15):
at the same time, like a homeless man is I
don't know, screaming into a.
Speaker 2 (14:18):
Shoe box or something like that.
Speaker 1 (14:20):
And then somebody another, another homeless person, tried to take
food off your plate at the restaurant.
Speaker 2 (14:24):
I just you know, I just love that.
Speaker 5 (14:29):
All really happened to me my last trip to San Francisco,
and that was pre pandemic. I mean, like, I you know,
I went from Oregon, like I, I can't begin to
tell you what, but uh, every web major West Coast
city and how bad it is.
Speaker 4 (14:41):
But anyway, I guess it's a story for another matter.
Speaker 2 (14:43):
We'll get into that.
Speaker 4 (14:44):
That's that's for the writer's stuff. I don't know what
to say.
Speaker 5 (14:49):
I was, according to my mother, was very verbal from
a very early age, and I taught myself to read
well before I was in school, and I was just
obsessed with books growing up. My parents are recently well educated.
They both have graduate degrees. But my parents are very
interesting people. My dad was a retired Marine colonel who
(15:11):
was five years old living in Pearl Harbor when his
palm and lived all the all over the world news
a kid and had been all over the world in
the military and worked for the CIA and done all
this exciting stuff, even though I was raised in the
middle of nowhere and what was at the time pretty
you know, rural ish Oregon, I would say, and my mom,
I don't know what to say. My mother comes from
the most insane, eccentric family. So there was just a
(15:35):
lot of color in my life. I wouldn't describe it
all as very very good. I mean, there was a
lot of insanity, frankly, you know, in terms of uh,
I don't know, just family drama and other things like that.
So as much as I hate to I hate all that,
(15:56):
it's also true that kind of environment sort of fosters
creative people.
Speaker 4 (15:59):
I think, fortunately right, And I don't know, I like I.
Speaker 5 (16:04):
Said, I grew up in rural Oregon, and I wrote
a rurali ish organ like with three and a half
hours outside of Portland and Oregon, which is now a
big ski resort and a very fancy, nice place to be.
When I knew there was eighteen thousand people and it
was there was no airport, and it was crazy. So
when I like, when I was in high school and
you know, me and all my friends had to get
really creative to like basically entertain ourselves, and it was
(16:24):
always involved in creative pursuits and played in bands in
high school. And I just I always loved reading and
I was writing from a very early age. And it
was pretty clear I had some sort of natural talent
for it. Like I'm a lot funnier in print than
I am in person.
Speaker 2 (16:37):
I think you're pretty funny in person.
Speaker 5 (16:38):
Well, thank you, but uh, and so I just you know,
it was it was, it was clear, it was easy.
But I think just a lot of reading, you know,
it was with an early age, and I was always
attracted to creative writers, if that makes sense, Like I'm
not creative writing, but creative writers who are creative more creative.
So like I was, you know, things like I was
(17:00):
reading Hunter s. Thompson a way too early in age.
Things like that. You know, David Foster Wallace was a
big fan. I was a big fan of in college
and people that were doing interesting funny.
Speaker 1 (17:09):
Yeah, Funny I think is so important and I think
it's so overlooked, especially like in our political, politicized universe.
I think people don't try to be funny, and that's unfortunate.
Speaker 5 (17:19):
I was just about to say that. I remember was
in high school at some point and my dead head
sister was like, here, you'll like this, and she like
threw me a copy of PGR Rourke's Parliament of Whrores
when I was like fifteen or sixteen, And I mean,
that is such a brilliant book. It's so funny, and
it's so quotable, and you know, it's his PGR works
(17:41):
book on it's called a lone Humor's attempts to explain
the entire US government, and it's so universally true in
terms of its observations about bureaucracy and other things like that.
I mean, it's great, although it is funny to reread
it because it was written in like nineteen eighty seven
and it's like, you know, can you believe the dead
is one billion dollars?
Speaker 4 (17:59):
You know?
Speaker 1 (18:01):
Uh?
Speaker 5 (18:01):
But uh yeah, the humor was was was really really
big for me in that respect, and it's like even
now I'm obsessed with humor, but like I have extremely
high standards for it. Like I can't just watch stand up,
Like it's got to be someone.
Speaker 4 (18:14):
Who's really good.
Speaker 2 (18:15):
Who's your favorite right now?
Speaker 5 (18:18):
That's a really good question. Shane Gillis is great, yeah,
and Anthony Gizelnik just kills me, even though he's like
just basically wicked. But his ability to craft jokes that
you don't where you don't expect the punchline is just unbelievable.
And of course Dave Chappelle from a literary perspective, I
don't think people get what Dave Chappelle does and how
like insanely impressive it is because he does this thing
(18:40):
where he does what they call callbacks, where you're talking,
he'll be talking about something and then like, yeah, he'll
remind you. And his ability to do that so seamlessly
and the mind humor out of that is so sophisticated
and literary. Like I mean that, like, I don't know
what Dave Chappelle's i Q is, but it is very high,
I assure you, right if.
Speaker 2 (19:02):
I can give you a recommendation.
Speaker 1 (19:03):
I don't know if you've heard of him, but Nate
Bergatzi is so he's just my top favorite right now.
And he's completely family friendly, like I didn't even realize
that for the first few shows.
Speaker 2 (19:13):
But no cursing, no like you know, any bad imagery.
He's really great.
Speaker 5 (19:18):
My wife and daughter love him. I don't know. I
mean like I like I said, I have really high
standage for this sort of thing. Yeah, I agree, he
is very funny. It's just he's not enough for me
to sit down and watch forty five.
Speaker 4 (19:29):
Minutes of them.
Speaker 1 (19:30):
Oh I love him, but yeah, okay, try Tennessee kid
if you okay, and.
Speaker 4 (19:35):
I'll check it out.
Speaker 5 (19:36):
But it's also true, like to some extent, people that
are really into humor are like non normal people. Like
this is famous groutch of Marx quote about if you
want to make a normal person laugh, you dress someone
up as an old lady and push them down the stairs.
In order to make a comedian laugh, it's got to
be a real old lady.
Speaker 4 (19:54):
That's you know where.
Speaker 5 (19:55):
I'm at, Like, it's got to be something that's really
you know, not necessarily out there, but something that's like
really on a something that really catches you sort of
surprise in a surprising way.
Speaker 4 (20:06):
Dmitri Martin is another guy I really like.
Speaker 2 (20:08):
I had to look them up.
Speaker 1 (20:10):
We're going to take a quick break and be right
back on the Carol Marcowitch Show. So what's the most
controversial thing you've ever written and do you stand by it.
Speaker 2 (20:22):
So the Taylor.
Speaker 4 (20:23):
Swift it might well be. Yeah.
Speaker 5 (20:27):
I wrote a piece on how the piece was headlined
something like Taylor shows popular is the decline of is?
Speaker 4 (20:34):
What was it?
Speaker 5 (20:34):
Something like is is the decline of Western civilization or
something like that. It was or is a sign of
societal decline? Which, yeah, people really got worked up about that,
And like, strangely enough, earlier in the year, I wrote
a piece about how I was really frustrated that people
were constantly backing in the parking spaces.
Speaker 2 (20:56):
And what are they supposed to do?
Speaker 4 (20:59):
Knows in the parking space.
Speaker 1 (21:00):
Oh yeah, I'm thinking okay, I'm thinking parallel parking. I'm
still you know, New Yorker obviously parking spot.
Speaker 6 (21:06):
Yeah okay, And boy wow, to that backing in the
parking is saying like people and to this day, like
once or twice a week, people often I've never even met,
will come.
Speaker 1 (21:19):
Up I missed that one.
Speaker 5 (21:22):
They have like really strong feelings pro or con backing
in the parking spaces, which is you know, and I
lay out all my reasons for why, and the piece,
I mean like they're you know, but you know the
thing is this, anytime you stay out a position on
like a controversial issue. I mean, if you're being honest,
there's going to be some sort of nuances, like I
don't think Taylor Swift is like a complete hack or
anything like that. And in fact, you know, the problem
(21:44):
is my argument wasn't that, you know, I don't understand
the why Taylor Swift as popular, or that I don't
think she's talented at all. It's more I don't understand
the level to which she's popular relative to the darth
of everything else. And never mind, I do have very
specific criticism of Taylor Swift and her approaches songwriting other
things like that, but like, I don't know, it's it's
weird and I don't know. I guess it goes back
(22:05):
to like the void people are trying to fill with
culture and the absence of you know, in the midst
of socatal decline or having religion or you know, I
don't know, you know, civil civil organizations that would that
they could dedicate themselves to, like people identify as Swifties
more than they do you know, anything else. And it
ends up becoming like a religious war when you criticize
(22:27):
Taylor Swift or how nuanced you try and be about it.
Speaker 1 (22:30):
Well, I kind of get that for teenagers, like my
thirteen year old daughter definitely into Taylor Swift. We joke
about it being a cult, like she waits for dear
Leader to say something to her fans, and but for
grown ups, I'm with you, Like I don't get the
absolute deep, you know, fascination with a pop star's life
and just what's going on with her. I think that
(22:51):
that's like, you know, get a life a little bit.
Speaker 4 (22:54):
So yeah, well.
Speaker 5 (22:56):
I'm I'm a hacked musician too, and like this is
another thing that just bothers me about like what she does.
It's like there's a lot of sophisticated stuff going on
in terms of productions in the Sonics, but so many
of the songs are basically like literally the same chord
changes right, like the same you know, basic you know
music is happening over and over and over again with her,
and like it's one of these things where once you
hear it, you just can't unhear it. But like people
(23:18):
are not willing to. I don't know, it's weird. Again,
As a writer and someone who like takes this stuff
very seriously, like I invest myself, like I can't just
like any old stand up comic, Like I gotta like,
maybe it's maybe I'm being ridiculous. Maybe I have to
that I have to formulate my own sophisticated reasons for
why I can or cannot defend my my my standing
(23:40):
of this particular comedian or musical artists or whatever. But
I do think it's important that people look critically at
the world around them. And you know, look, I'm not
saying you can't just like, you know, tune into some
pop music and enjoy yourself or whatever. But at the
end of the day, I feel like there's got to
be two Culture's got to be operating on two levels.
You know, There's got to be some sort of like
middle brow intellectual level that sustains a culture, the sort
(24:06):
of the lowbrow.
Speaker 4 (24:07):
Stuff, if that makes sense.
Speaker 5 (24:09):
Yeah, if you go back and you listen to pop
music in the eighties, you know, I mean what was
going on was insanely musically sophisticated compared to now, and
I you know, and I think it's just that people
are getting you know, dumber.
Speaker 4 (24:20):
I mean, like the Beatles.
Speaker 5 (24:22):
Beatles are massively, massively popular and like insanely musically sophisticated,
like on bar with Bach in terms of a lot
of the stuff that they were doing well.
Speaker 2 (24:30):
I mean, and they're still huge.
Speaker 1 (24:31):
It's not like people are like, oh, the Beatles suck,
you know, yeah.
Speaker 5 (24:35):
Well no, that's that's true. But like I do worry
about a generation or two out. I mean, like it
is very true that people have reverse engineered a lot
of stuff. You know, it used to be you know,
I don't know, you know, culture was more culture is
more fragmented now, and so I guess what that means
(24:56):
is to the extent that there are things that rise
to the top that everybody quote them quote agrees on
or decides as popular, they tend to be really lowest
common denominator things because I don't know, back in the day,
we used to complain all the time about you know,
various corporate distribution channels for stuff, you know, overlooking the
really quality stuff and going for the dumb down stuff.
But the reality was is the corporate paymasters back then,
(25:18):
they didn't have algorithms to tell them, you know, an
instant real time like Netflix or Spotify does to tell
you what people are liking and what specific second of
the song or movie. And so they were to some
extent guessing and exposing people to stuff that they wouldn't
have otherwise been exposed to, whereas.
Speaker 4 (25:36):
Interesting point, it's all metrics.
Speaker 1 (25:38):
So what would you say, And I ask all of
my guests this, but what would you say is our
largest cultural or societal problem in America?
Speaker 2 (25:46):
And do you think that it's solvable?
Speaker 4 (25:50):
Wow?
Speaker 1 (25:51):
Yeah, I mean again, this is just one of the
questions what's the meaning of life?
Speaker 4 (25:55):
While you're at it.
Speaker 2 (25:57):
It gets harder from here.
Speaker 5 (25:58):
So well, I think basically the problem right now is
that there's a spiritual crisis in the country. And I'm
not saying that necessarily needs to be answered by organized religion,
but like you know, for instance, it's acute among young
men in particular. But you know, people need reasons to
(26:19):
wake up in the morning. You know, they need to
feel like they're engaged in productive work. And with a
lot of the economic changes that have happened in terms
of offshoring, manufacturing jobs and things like that, I mean,
you know, I'm sympathetic to the you know, quote unquote
free market or you know, economic efficiency arguments of certain things,
but at the end of the day, you know, if
(26:39):
you're not providing sustainable jobs for people. Never mind that
there's all kinds of other stuff that's been going on
in terms of you know the fact that these middle
class jobs have all been shipped off, and you know
the income inequality that we're seeing, you know, in terms
of how it's affected things like housing markets and other things.
We really just need to address this sort of you know,
(27:02):
spiritual slash work crisis. You know, people need to know
what they can do to contribute society and feel good
about what they're doing. And it goes back to what
I was saying. You know, like you can figure out
from an early age, you know what job you can
do that's going to sustain you, that you're gonna be
happy to do every day, and you can do that job,
then you know that that solves so many problems in life.
Speaker 4 (27:22):
And so many.
Speaker 5 (27:23):
People, you know, they're whether they're graduating with a liberal
arts degree, you know, two hundred thousand dollars in day, yeah,
and not knowing what to do or whether or not
they you know, grew up in a steel town when
the mill closed forty years ago, and don't know where
to go or what to do with their life. You know,
this is happening across I think all stratu of society. Actually,
(27:46):
you know, people need good jobs and they need to
like know what they can do to contribute to their communities.
Speaker 1 (27:51):
I've never heard that answer before, so that's a good one.
We talked about, you know, your family and your work.
Speaker 2 (27:57):
Do you feel like you've made it?
Speaker 4 (28:02):
Yeah, I mean I have zero.
Speaker 2 (28:05):
Complaints, zero zero complaints.
Speaker 5 (28:10):
Well, I mean I've got lots of superficial complaints, but
they're not complaints at the end of the day that
I can feel good about, you know, the fact that
I made them through the course of the day. I mean,
I have two, you know, beautiful kids that are doing
very well in school and otherwise. I've been married for
seventeen years to someone I'm still very much in love with,
and I have a tremendous respect for. And you know,
(28:33):
I own a home, you know, in terms of and
I you know, and I have money in the bank.
I mean, like, I don't know what more you an
American can ask for. I mean, yeah, there's a lot
of like nice to have things.
Speaker 3 (28:45):
You know.
Speaker 5 (28:45):
My wife and I grew up out West and we've
talked about, you know, maybe someday being able to get
a vacation home in the mountains. But I you know,
these are aspirational things, and as for the day to
day stuff, I really just don't have any sort of,
you know, complaints. I will say that as someone whorew
up in an organ and my wife grow up in Colorado,
we've been in the DC area for a long time
(29:06):
and that presents a lot of unique challenges living here.
I mean, it's expensive, and you know, educating our children
has been like a full time task because of the
surrounding environment and things like that. But I mean, at
the same time, you know, my wife and I are
obviously successful at what we do, and I just can't
complain that things have worked out the way that they have.
Speaker 2 (29:27):
I love that well.
Speaker 1 (29:28):
I've loved talking to you, Mark, and here with your
best tip for my listeners on how they can improve
their lives.
Speaker 4 (29:37):
Oh geez, wow.
Speaker 2 (29:42):
I told you it gets harder from here.
Speaker 5 (29:45):
The best tip I could say would be to there's
a lot of people will give you a lot of
specific advice about you know, avoiding the Internet or this
and that and other things. Do as much as you
can to be connected with real people and like real
things that are happening in real life.
Speaker 4 (30:05):
If that makes sense, Yeah, I mean sort of.
Speaker 5 (30:10):
I just mean that, like, you know, if you need
to talk to someone, you know, arranged to meet them
or call them rather than email them, you know, you know,
make a human connection.
Speaker 4 (30:20):
You know.
Speaker 5 (30:21):
If you can't, if there's a problem in your community
or whatever, you know, go talk to your city councilman.
Like that's how like actual change is made, you know,
whereas it's so much easier to dismiss you know, this
sort of you know, howling into the digital ether.
Speaker 3 (30:36):
Yeah.
Speaker 5 (30:37):
And you know, similarly, you know, get out of the house,
you know, meet people, join social clubs, you know whatever.
You know, make a point of seeing people regularly. And
by the way, I'm telling you this because this is
something like I really struggle with. I mean, this is
I think is the thing that particularly affects middle aged men.
I'm going up to Brooklyn to see a good friend
from high school this weekend. I haven't seen him in like,
(30:59):
you know years. You know, you know, you really have
to make an effort at a certain point in your life. Right,
busy and I got kids and whatever else, but it's
really important that you make the effort not just for you,
but for everyone else and for the community.
Speaker 1 (31:12):
Yeah, I definitely agree to, you know, leaving the house,
leaving the internet all very important and a topic that
I cover a lot on this show.
Speaker 2 (31:21):
Thank you so much for coming on. I'd love talking
to you. Mark Hemingway, Let's read him wherever you can.
He's just amazing and I'm a big fan.
Speaker 4 (31:30):
You're way too kind, Carol, I'm a big fan of
you as well.
Speaker 1 (31:33):
Thanks so much for joining us on the Carol Marcowitch Show.
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