André Leon Talley: A Tribute w/ Norma Kamali & Robin Givhan (Season Finale)

Larger than life fashion journalist, stylist, creative director and editor André Leon Talley passed away unexpectedly on January 18, 2022. In this episode of love, respect, admiration and reflection, Laverne and her exceptional guests remind us why the world, the fashion world in particular, will miss the late great André Leon Talley. Iconic fashion designer and André’s longtime friend Norma Kamali shares stories starting from their early days in 1970’s New York City and Pulitzer Prize-winning Washington Post journalist Robin Givhan offers an industry perspective from the last 25 years of his life. Both are intimate, knowing, and candid, and say the same thing: there will never be another ALT.

A New Line: Robin Givhan Interviews André Leon Talley (2017) (courtesy of Washington Post Live Events)

Please rate, review, subscribe and share The Laverne Cox Show with everyone you know. You can find Laverne on Instagram and Twitter @LaverneCox and on Facebook at @LaverneCoxForReal.

As always, stay in the love.

More Links of Interest:

A.L.T. by André Leon Talley

Chiffon Trenches by André Leon Talley

The Gospel According to Andre (Documentary Official Trailer)

A Memorial for André Leon Talley (NYT)

André Leon Talley, the Pioneering Vogue Editor, Has Died at 73 (Vogue)

Norma Kamali: I Am Invincible (book)

Grace Jones Studio 54 New Years Eve Party (costume designed by Norma Kamali)

Jessye Norman (Opera Legends Documentary, YouTube)

ALT on Meeting Lagerfeld and Being Correct (YouTube)

John Fairchild, author of Fashionable Savages

Hilton Als' Profile (The New Yorker, 1994)

The Collection of André Leon Talley (Christie’s)

ALT Recent Auction (The Cut)

Laverne Cox and André Leon Talley on Watch What Happens Live 2015 

Rihanna’s Savage X Fenty Show Reinvents Lingerie (TIME, 2019)

André Leon Talley Dishes on Galliano, McQueen, and Lagerfeld, Darling (Interview Mag, 2020)

Andre Leon Talley Day (WWD, 2022)

 

Other Episodes Mentioned Relevant:

The Spirituality of Club Culture w/ Honey Dijon

Diary: Where Fashion Meets Art

The Legendary Life of Connie Fleming, Part I and Part II

 

CREDITS:

Executive Producers: Sandie Bailey, Alex Alcheh, Lauren Hohman, Tyler Klang & Gabrielle Collins

Producer & Editor: Brooke Peterson-Bell

Associate Producer: Akiya McKnight

See omnystudio.com/listener for privacy information.

Episode Transcript

Speaker 1 (00:01):
Welcome to the Laverne Cox Show, a production of Shondaland
Audio in partnership with iHeartRadio.

Speaker 2 (00:10):
I had to get out of Durham. I just I
had a hongering for the life I saw in Vote,
and I never calculated that I am going to pass
a trajectory to get to Vote, to get them most
of my data. It just happened for me. And I'll
tell you why it happened for me, because knowledge is power,
and I did my homework.

Speaker 1 (00:33):
Welcome to the Laverne Cox Show. My name is Laverne Cox.
I can't remember the first time I saw Andre Leon
Tally on television, but I know the first time I
saw Andre Leon Tally on television, I became immediately obsessed
with him. Andre Leon Tally felt like this black king.

(00:55):
There was something so grand and fabulous about him, this
tall black man who had this sort of Transatlantic accent,
and who was multi lingual and learned and just over
the top and fabulous. Andrea was just fabulous, so singular

(01:16):
and so unique, but beyond that was also just so smart,
so smart, just knew of what he spoke. And as
I got to know more about him and his work
and his writings and his influence on the fashion world.
I fell more in love with him, and I got
to meet him in twenty fifteen on Watch What Happens

(01:39):
Live and got to spend some time with him over
the years, and I never stopped being obsessed. So when
we lost Andrea unexpectedly on January eighteenth, twenty twenty two,
the fashion world was rocked. I personally was devastated, and
I knew when I came back first two that I

(02:00):
wanted to do a tribute to Andre Leon Tally and
that we must keep his memory and his legacy alive.
So to talk about the inimitable Andre Leon Tally, we
have two guests. First, I talk with fashion Walk of
Fame designer and his very good friend, the legend, Norma Kamali,

(02:23):
And later you'll hear from Robin Gavon, a Bullet Serprize
winning reporter for The Washington Post who followed his work
over many years. Alrighty, here we go. Norma Kamali is
an American fashion designer known for her timeless designs and
her iconic sleeping bag coat that came to be a
part of Andrea's signature look. Always on the cutting edge,

(02:46):
She's credited with several fashion innovations, like using parachute material
in the nineteen seventies and introducing at leisure wear in
the nineteen eighties. Norma Kamali designed the red one piece
bathing suit faira Faucet war It's an Her iconic nineteen
seventy six poster that swimsuit is now in the Simithsonian
and the Metropolitan Museum of Art includes her work in

(03:07):
its fashion collections. Andre Leon tally called her a genius
a fashion Please enjoy my conversation with the one and
only the Norma Kamali. Hello, Norma Kamali, Welcome to the podcast.
How are you feeling today.

Speaker 3 (03:24):
I'm feeling great, so nice to be with you, finally,
finally even meet with you.

Speaker 1 (03:31):
I'm really really honored and God, you're such a legend
in an icon and I really would love to talk
to you about so much. But when I knew I
wanted to do a second season of this podcast, I
knew I wanted to take some time to talk about
Andre and interestingly enough, your iconic sleeping bag coat that
Andrea wore that has been it is endued. I believe

(03:53):
it's the fiftieth anniversary of that coat. It's the nineteen
seventy three that we designed it for the first time. Yes,
So we're celebrating the fiftyth anniversary of your Sleeping Bag coat.
And it recently sold at Christie's at auction. It was
part of Andrea on Tally's collection that was sold for
charity after he passed away early this year. It sold
for twenty five thousand dollars, which is amazing for charity.

(04:15):
It's iconic, and I think it retails for quite a
bit less.

Speaker 4 (04:21):
I think a little bit a little bit less, yeah,
it says, but you know, we both love Andre and
anything that has his vibration in it is worth more
than that.

Speaker 3 (04:33):
And whoever bought it is blessed to have that energy
as a part of their lives now. And so it
isn't really about the coat. It's what that coat wrapped
and hugged him and I'm so happy it did. And
whoever has it has all of that wonderfulness that Andrea

(04:55):
gave to everyone.

Speaker 5 (04:57):
So it was a good deal.

Speaker 1 (04:59):
Yeah, And the regret how regal he was in it too,
as regal as he would be, and one of his
you know, sort of custom tom for captains. He was
a regal in your sleeping bag. It's so true.

Speaker 5 (05:10):
It's so true.

Speaker 1 (05:12):
When did you meet Andre Leon Talley for the first time?
Do you recall?

Speaker 3 (05:16):
Oh, you know, I don't remember the exact date, but
he'd just really come to New York. He was early, uh,
and his time here and and I remember meeting him
when he worked for Diana of Reland at the Men
so very early. And Diana of Reland asked for me

(05:41):
to do three pieces of my parachute clothing for the MET.
And it was the first time in any of the
MET exhibits that a living designer had anything exhibited, and
there were parachute pieces, and I did silver skull caps.

Speaker 1 (06:00):
I forget what year you did the parachute piece of
the first time.

Speaker 5 (06:02):
I think for the MET it was probably.

Speaker 3 (06:07):
Either seventy around seventy four, and they had she had
fans blowing them up, and she invited me to come
before the exhibit opened to see it. And you know,
I'm like a new designer beyond cult, like underground cult

(06:28):
and under underground, and I'm thinking, what the hell am
I doing going to see Diana? Really, I don't know
what I'm doing, Like what's going on? And Andre was
there and he was working on the exhibit. So that
was my first you know, the two of us were
like in our like, oh my god, can you believe this?

(06:51):
And so when we met and became friends really started
very soon after that, and we just connected immediately immediately,
and our friendship lasted many many years, as you know.
And I saw him grow and evolve and like, you

(07:16):
be a pioneer and be a first and be brave
enough to say, this is who I am, and I'm
going to show you, and I'm going to show you
what that can be and how that can change the world.
And he decided that that was what he was going
to do, and he did it, and he knew he

(07:37):
had to be the best, because if you're going to
be brave, you got to be better. You got to
be better than everybody else. And he was extraordinary. And
I think it's not just that he opened the door
for other people and all of those cliche he really

(07:59):
chained and the way people looked at fashion. It wasn't
just about who he was that changed. It was what
he did also changed it, which is greater.

Speaker 1 (08:13):
You called him one of the great storytellers, but fashion
and one of your conversations with him, and for me
that resonated so deeply, the way he would talk about
the clothes and describe them. I remember in his first
piece that he wrote for Women's Were Daily, and when
he went to Paris in nineteen seventy nine, I believe,
and wrote about Santa Bron's Broadway collection. Missus Rieland sent

(08:33):
him a letter that he kept till the end of
his life that said, you wrote about the clothes so beautifully,
and they came to life, And they really the way
that he sort of evoked and understood the intention of
the designer and the references and just the clothes came
to life in a way that I never really felt

(08:53):
with anyone else.

Speaker 3 (08:55):
The things that he would write about and the way
he wrote about it was so magical, and I if
you think about it, he came from an environment that
was come. You could not be more different, you could
not be more isolated.

Speaker 5 (09:16):
From who he became.

Speaker 3 (09:18):
And I think what happens is the fantasy of that
growing up as a child, and the dreams and the wishes,
and he became that.

Speaker 1 (09:31):
And ultimately he was an outsider and so he was
able to see I remember him talking about his first
interview with mister Lagerfeld for interview in nineteen seventy five.
Before five, I think he moved to New York in
nectey seventy four, and he talked about reading everything about Lagerfeld,
and he had read The Fashionable Savages, and so when
he worked for mister Fairchild, that was sort of his reference.

(09:54):
And there's such a voracious consumption of fashion of that
world that he would then enter, but it was as
an outsider, and so he was able perhaps to see it.
I'm having an aha moment as you talk. He was
probably able to see it differently because he wasn't from it.

Speaker 3 (10:11):
Absolutely, yeah, absolutely, I'm positive of that. And in fact,
in our many conversations he references his childhood a lot
and all aspects of it. There's I think the drama
and the regalness, and the way his grandmother treated the

(10:38):
idea of being right, being proper, being just a church
going woman, a woman who cared about detail and everything,
and he worshiped her and she instilled in him excellence, perfection,
all of those things, and he just took the fan

(11:00):
to see.

Speaker 5 (11:00):
Of all of that.

Speaker 3 (11:01):
He can remember every hat she wore, all of that
never left his memory, so he could probably have described
as a boy that hat a million times over in
his mind. And you know, one of the kind people
are very special because nothing is wasted, no minute is wasted.

(11:28):
They don't waste time on unnecessary things. Everything is focused
and with a purpose. And he truly represented somebody who
did not waste any time. He didn't spend time on
stupid things or something that wouldn't be meaningful for him. Right,

(11:50):
this was who he was. His grandmother was very instrumental
in giving him that structure.

Speaker 1 (11:57):
Yes, he talks about how precisely what her cleanliness that
she would iron the sheefs, and how organized she was
in manners. He talked so much about having good manners,
and he was like, I was able to go into
these spaces in Paris because I had good manners and
that came from her, this segregated South in this woman
who was a domestic worker like my grandmother. And it's

(12:21):
just very very inspiring. Yeah, I want to know fun
stories that you made. I'm just am thinking about the seventies.
You too, talk about the seventies and how magical they
were in New York and I you know, sort of
fantasized about that time. I'm not I just turned fifty one,
so I'm not quite old enough to have been around
in New York in the seventies, and so I imagine,
I know you. I know your first husband was a

(12:42):
frequented Studio of fifty four, and that the door of
people the Studio fifty four loved your sleeping back cote.
But you didn't go out much, I understand now.

Speaker 3 (12:51):
So I was busy making clothes from people who went
to Studio fifty four, which meant, you know, or this
is like early in my career. I'm sewing and I'm
like in with my group and we would work into
the night because we were making so many clothes that

(13:11):
you could dance, and I was making clothes out of
swimmer fabric because everybody was sweating and dancing. So it
was like perfect. But what happened was my husband and
I split up, and Ian Schrager, who was one of
the partners of Studio fifty four, asked me to make

(13:32):
Grace Jones costume for New Year's Eve.

Speaker 1 (13:35):
Oh my god, the iconic, the iconic I know, New
Year's Eve. Yeah, there's so many I wasn't there, but
I tell me everything.

Speaker 3 (13:43):
Yes, so and all the dancers, and so I met
him and through that invitation, and then we started. We
were together for a couple of years during Studio fifty four.
But I never went to Studio fifty four, believe it
or not. I was busy making clothes. So the beauty

(14:07):
of Studio fifty four was people like Andre, people in
the fashion industry, in entertainment. Everybody could go there and
be who they were.

Speaker 1 (14:19):
Megan r for just a second, is this the look
that you designed?

Speaker 5 (14:22):
It the look it is? That's it?

Speaker 1 (14:27):
Oh, I know this very well. I didn't know it
was you. I'm obsessed with Grace Jones.

Speaker 3 (14:31):
Well, talk about unique people. The seventies sort of bred
unique people, and Andre came to New York. A lot of
people came to New York. New York was a shit show.
It was hell. You we think New York is dangerous now,
and it isn't perfect for sure, but it was so

(14:55):
dangerous then, and so people were fleeing the city, except
for people who were living in places where they didn't
feel comfortable, like they couldn't be who they were, or
women who were understanding that they could be equal to
men and decided to leave marriages and come to New York.

(15:19):
And so there was this influx of creativity. Imagination flourished,
talent flourished. It was a time, I would say, and
Ian Schrieger both we both agree that in fashion it

(15:39):
was a time where the amount of creative people in
one place in New York City never was passed. And
the output of new ideas, design ideas, creativity in every
area from window to home design to you name it.

(16:05):
Everything but fashion took over. And so Studio fifty four
was the place where you could go and see everybody,
and designers had their little nook areas. And of course
Andre was there every night. You could see ten thousand
photos of him, and he was a skinny, tall, impeccably dressed,

(16:30):
impeccably dressed personality. He found himself like many people, and
that's why New York benefited so much. Sometimes the worst
situation opens the door for opportunity. And while I think
amazing things are going on today and I look at

(16:51):
the future with awe and excitement, there are different pockets
of time in my seventy eight years of life that
you see something really special happened here. But the freedom
that people found in being themselves in New York. Here
this freedom was being expressed, and I just, I don't know.

(17:15):
I wore velvet gowns in Central Park every day to
walk my dog. I was surrounded by friends that loved
the same things I did.

Speaker 5 (17:28):
That was the seventies.

Speaker 3 (17:29):
You just, you know, it was a very special time.

Speaker 1 (17:35):
Was just thinking about that time period and the Warhol
of it all. And I was thinking a lot about
Andrea and fran Lebowitz and how both of them older
sort of struggled financially and came through that Warhol era.
And you know, I think there were elements of exploitation,
but there were also these people who found ways to

(17:59):
kind of exist through the kindness of their friends. So
it was so much about relationships. It was so much
about you know, I have this amazing friend and these
these are my friends, and so I'm going to be
taken care of in this way. And so there maybe
wasn't like, you know, I should be saving or investing
or in the other artists. And I have wonderful friends
and I'm living my life. And so that's what that energy,

(18:21):
that sort of warhouling and kind of vibe that really
feels so much like it was seventies and eighties and
Milliontily died.

Speaker 3 (18:31):
I think your thoughts about Warhol and that influence and
people taking care of each other, and nobody ever talks
about It's very perceptive because today I think about this
all the time. In the seventies, we of course didn't
have social media, we didn't have phones, we didn't have cameras.

(18:52):
We weren't taking pictures of each other all the time.
But all the time we were touching it each other.
We were laying on top of each other, we were
wrapped around each other. We would sit in the park
and just be connected physically. And friendships were so deep,

(19:15):
so strong, because you can have a communication that when
you look at someone and touch them while they're telling
you about a painful experience, you are one with them,
which is different than connecting through a device or sharing

(19:36):
an experience through a photograph. We would be together, it
was just that important, and people helped each other. Nobody
would ever not have a place to stay ever, Nobody
would ever not have food to eat or a holiday

(19:57):
to be at.

Speaker 5 (19:58):
Never happen.

Speaker 3 (20:00):
It's just we're more isolated now and it's a little
dangerous not to have that connection. But Your perception about
that is so important because it was so much a
part of the creativity too. You feed creativity from one another, right,

(20:20):
you're not stealing it, you're inspiring one. Like we get
excited just talking about things, So what about this and
what happens? And the energy would just explode. And Warhol
was a creative firecracker. He just ignited things. He ignited them,

(20:41):
and they would happen everywhere. I remember he'd come into
my store quietly and he'd walk around and take polaroids
of everything, and I'm seeing these polaroids auctioned everywhere now.
He would take polaroids off the window display and he
would say, I like this one. This is a nice one,

(21:02):
you know. My favorite one was and just walk in
and out or bring in some people to shop.

Speaker 5 (21:10):
And that was it.

Speaker 3 (21:10):
Do you know if he likes something I was doing,
he wanted to share it with other people. It was
like that kind of a thing. And so people were
very helpful to one.

Speaker 1 (21:21):
Another and thinking of taking care of people. I love
the story that Andre often tells about. I forget what
year John Galliano had done a show and anything. It
was some of these women escaping from Russia and these
big sort of ball gowns that were amazing, and you know,
and Gulliana was poor and he wasn't able to do
another show and Andre was like, well, you have to

(21:43):
do another show. And Andre, you know, they talks to
Anna and they FLI John to New York and Andre
basically finds a funder, finds the next show and make
sure that the talent is cultivated, just because it was
like the talent was just so important Andre.

Speaker 5 (22:01):
That was his job. I think he felt that was
his job.

Speaker 3 (22:04):
That's what I do, That's what I do, endless, endlessly,
and he was a facilitator for connecting people and making
things happen. He just would go out of his way
to do things. I mean that Galliano story, he worked

(22:27):
hard to make that happen. He worked hard. He makes
it look so easy, but it wasn't easy. He worked
really hard. And sometimes when you make it look too easy,
people don't appreciate how much is involved and how big
a gift that is. But he didn't carry on about that.

(22:50):
He would never do that. But you can be sure
he made Galliano do something for somebody though, do you
know what I mean, I'm going to do this for
you but then you're going to help somebody else. And
that was very much a seventies thing. That was just
that was a behavior of the seventies. But because he

(23:11):
was in this situation he was in and he was
able to see talent early on that he didn't want
to get lost in the weeds. He really really facilitated
to make things happen for a lot of talented people.

Speaker 1 (23:31):
I think when I think of Andre, what I you know,
years before I met him, I saw him on television.
I was like, who is this black man who is
who speaks this way and is so sort of over
the top but knows what he's talking about and has
such a sense of authority and regal. He's just so regal,
And these are the kinds of black people I love.

(23:52):
I love Jesse Norman and so I you know, it's
interesting being a child to think about like sort of
becoming obsessed with Jesse Norman in high school and then
later Andre the on tally who are very poor, both
from the South, multi lingual, you know, black people who
were royalty, and that's what I just gravitated towards that
and loved that and obsessed with that. And there was

(24:15):
such a sense of we must be excellent and that's it.
What have I got to be? Yeah? But what I
love about you as well, and I wonder is that
reading about you and researching about you and your story
you're growing up in this immigrant neighborhood, in this very
small apartment, that you understood too that you had to

(24:36):
be excellent. Did that come from your mother?

Speaker 3 (24:39):
I think yeah, I think especially when you're different from
everyone else, and you know, I would dream that I'd
find money on the streets so that we would have money.
You know, it was like there's a there's some a
different kind of experience that you have, and you realize

(25:00):
is that if you're gonna go to school and be
able to get the kind of education you want, you
have to be excellent because there's not going to be
any money to make that happen. And my mother really
really pushed on education, education, excellence. She wanted us to

(25:22):
be on a level playing field, but it meant we
had to work hard, and she pushed us. And then
I realized I could see how excellence and perfection and
reaching for the best, and like you seeing people that
really excited you because they were so extraordinary and special,

(25:45):
that was my secret sauce. That was the way I
was going to do it. And I talked to kids
I grew up with in the neighborhood and they said,
you always had an agenda.

Speaker 5 (25:58):
It's like, how I have an agenda. I was a kid. No,
you had an agenda.

Speaker 3 (26:03):
I was like, I don't know what you're talking about,
but obviously I did. The agenda was I have to
be better because if I'm not, I'm going to disappear.
I'm just going to disappear. I don't have the same opportunity,
so I have to make this happen. And I am
so grateful, Laverne. I am incredibly grateful for my childhood

(26:30):
because I feel everything I can do today is because
I've become fearless of making mistakes, doing things wrong.

Speaker 5 (26:44):
I don't care.

Speaker 3 (26:45):
I just know I'm aiming for excellence. If I drop
below excellence, the failure is going to be redeemable.

Speaker 1 (26:54):
What I love about this conversation, Yes it's about Andre,
but I love chatting with you now and seventy eight
year old normal mom, Thank oh my god, I can't
even I'm really just I'm a starstruck. But I think
about you in the nineteen sixties working for the airline
and going to London from New York and buying the
mini skirt and walking down the streets of New York
and the mini skirt and inventing hotpants, and this exuberance

(27:18):
and this person who love to dance, then apparently we
still love to dance. I feel that energy alive in
you as I talk to you now, and that is
very very exciting.

Speaker 3 (27:27):
Well, the spirit, yeah, the spirit is really your age, right,
and your spirit is strong and alive, and they are
twenty five year olds who have a very diminished spirit.
So I think it really is about the spirit and
purpose and waking up every morning and approaching the next

(27:51):
day with joy and another chance to get it right
and to do it right. I mean, that's such a
privilege a lifetime. We have to really respect it and
do the best we can.

Speaker 1 (28:05):
And I think it is the artist's job ultimately. You know,
everyone is not able to be the arbiters of that energy,
and it is the job of the artist. And so
it's it's the artist spirit that you and habit that
is that I very much connect to. So I like
to end every podcast with the question what else is true?

(28:27):
It comes from my therapy, my trauma resilience therapy, and
it's the idea of both, and that the world could
be on fire and there could be these very challenging
things in our lives. And yes, that is true. But
there's also something else that is true that can lift
us up, that can give us a sense of hope,
a sense of possibility, that multiple things can exist at

(28:47):
the same time. So, for you today, normal Komali, what
else is true?

Speaker 3 (28:54):
I believe that multiple things can happen at the same time.

Speaker 5 (29:00):
I am.

Speaker 3 (29:02):
Wanting to live to one hundred and twenty. I heard
I read that is true, and so I am. Every
day I do my best to think about how to
make that happen, because I really don't want to miss
out on all the things that are about to come.
I'm very excited about them. So I know I sound

(29:24):
crazy thinking of one hundred and twenty, but if I
even miss one hundred and twenty and drop a little down,
it's much longer than seventy nine, right, So that's my dream.

Speaker 5 (29:37):
That's what else is true?

Speaker 1 (29:40):
Well, what is so exciting? After fifty years am in
the fashion business, owning your business, still innovating and having
pieces that continue to be relevant after all this time,
from the humble beginnings that you came from. Anything, it's possible.

Speaker 3 (29:57):
You have to think about what are those things you
want and say them, proclaim them to try to make
them happen. I mean, I say one hundred and twenty
because I want to make longevity happen. And if I
create that energy for me to do that, and I

(30:20):
think everybody can say things that sound how's that going
to happen? We'll say it and think about it and
talk about it because you then become it and it becomes.

Speaker 1 (30:32):
You and there may be partners that you find who
can help you.

Speaker 5 (30:36):
That's true.

Speaker 1 (30:37):
Any last thoughts on Andre Leon Talley before we go.

Speaker 3 (30:40):
Well, I'm glad he brought us together. I'm happy for that.
I've always just loved you and loved everything about you,
and then I'm thrilled when I see you in my clothes.

Speaker 5 (30:51):
I'm like, oh my god, girl, that's great.

Speaker 3 (30:55):
I love your energy and I'm so glad you did
this trip to Andre because he was an extraordinary human
being and.

Speaker 5 (31:07):
I miss him.

Speaker 3 (31:08):
I must tell you I think of him and I
miss him. And the industry doesn't have a replacement for
somebody like that.

Speaker 1 (31:18):
No, no, there's only one. Yeah, there's only one. Thank
you so much, Thank you an honor. It's time for
a short break. But when we come back, Former fashion
reporter Robin Gavon continues our tribute to the late great
Andre Leon Tally. Welcome back. My next guest knew well

(31:43):
Andre Leon Tally's work, his reach, and his impact on
the fashion industry. Robin Gavon is the Washington Post Senior
Critic at Large. Earlier in her career with the Post,
she covered every angle of the fashion industry. In two
thousand and six, she won the Pulitzer Prize for Just
English Criticism. It was the first time the award was
given to a fashion writer. She's the author of the

(32:04):
Battle of Versailles, The Night American fashion stumbled into the
spotlight and made history. Gavon, who's also worked at Newsweek,
The Daily Beast, Vogue Magazine, and the Detroit Free Press,
please enjoy my conversation with Robin Givon. Hello Robin, and

(32:25):
welcome to the podcast. How are you feeling.

Speaker 6 (32:27):
Today, I'm good. Thank you so much for having me.

Speaker 1 (32:31):
I am so excited to have this conversation about the
late great Andre Leon Tally. I have so much love
and admiration for him, and I just want to celebrate him.
Can you tell us when you first encountered Andrea's work
or Andre himself. When was your first experience of Andre

(32:53):
Leon Tally?

Speaker 6 (32:55):
That is such a difficult question because I mean when
I started writing about fashion, I was at the Detroit
Free Press, which is one of those wonderful regional newspapers,
and I was, you know, seated in the rafters at

(33:16):
fashion shows, and Andre was down front, this just sort
of iconic figure that I recognized.

Speaker 1 (33:25):
What year with this it been?

Speaker 6 (33:26):
Roughly, this would have been like the mid nineties, okay,
and you know it was a period when he was
at Vogue and he was in his glory, so he
was just this distant figure who was, you know, in
the center of the fashion circus, and certainly he was

(33:48):
the lone black figure at the center of the circus.

Speaker 1 (33:52):
Absolutely. That's interesting because I don't remember the first time
I encountered Andre either, but it was on television for me.
It was probably like video fashion or some sort of
fashion television moment when he was talking about fashion, and
he was so grand and larger than life, and he

(34:17):
would say something. It was like a pronouncement from royalty.
It's like, you know, it shall be right. It's like
it feels like he would say something, you know, like this,
like the Gospel according to Andrea, and it became gospel,
it became law, and it was right. Ian. I remember
there was a story he tells about he was in
Paris and he had to cover a party for Women's
War Daily, and he was with Carl Lagerfeld and he

(34:40):
didn't have time to go and change and mister Lagerfeld
gave him something and it was something quite extravagant and
something sort of over the top. And he went and
people were looking him like he was sort of crazy.
It was like they literally know that Carl Lagerfeld gave
it to me, so it was right, you know. So
it was this it's like right and wrong. It's almost
sort of this strange black and white kind of the

(35:00):
way he talked about fashion, and that just captivated me.

Speaker 6 (35:04):
Yeah, you know, for me, I wasn't a fashion person.
You know, I came into the industry as a journalist,
and so I didn't really have this deep background of
fashion history. I could really not tell you about models
or anything like that. From the sixties or the seventies.

(35:26):
I was not a kid who was reading fashion magazines,
and for me, I was so just really impressed by
his vast knowledge. And the other thing that impressed me
was the fact that he had worked for Women' who
Were Daily, which you know, it's a trade publication, but

(35:47):
it's not particularly super glamorous. I mean, when I thought
of Women's Wear Daily, I was like, oh, Okay, this
is someone who was really out there reporting and having
to hit deadline. And that was for me a huge connection.
I thought, Okay, I relate to you on that level.

Speaker 1 (36:07):
I'd love to hear from you when you met Andrea
and how you maybe got to know him and got
to know a bit more about his life.

Speaker 6 (36:15):
You know, at this point, I was at the Washington
Post and I briefly left the Washington Post to go
and work for Vogue, And the very first person to
call and welcome me was Andre, which was huge, you know,
which just really meant a lot. And you know, it's

(36:35):
not like he was in office all the time. You know,
Andre was off doing fabulous Andre things, but he was
really gracious about that. And I only stayed at Vogue
for it was less than a year. It was very collegial,
but it wasn't rooted in or it didn't come across

(36:55):
as rooted in the fact that I was a black
woman coming to work at Vogue. I mean, I certainly
interpreted it that way, but it wasn't stated.

Speaker 1 (37:08):
Yeah, what year was this roughly? Do you remember what?

Speaker 6 (37:10):
Yeah, this was two thousand. This was in two thousand,
and you know I went back to the post shortly
after that, and then you know, his autobiography was published
ault sorry, the first autobiography, I should say. And I
remember he called and he told me that it was
coming out, and I got this galley of it and

(37:34):
I was like, oh, Andre, I really want to talk
to you about you know, this autobiography. It's incredible. I
was fascinated by the relationship that he had with his grandmother,
who really raised him, and he was so inspired by
her work, ethic, her sense of dignity, her grace and

(37:55):
her style, the precision with which she dressed on Sunday
for church, the way that she took care of his clothing,
the way that she ironed their linens. I mean, all
of these really small things that did not require a
lot of money but indicated how much pride she had

(38:18):
in her appearance and the way that she wanted the
world to understand her. And that was so moving to me,
And so I interviewed him and I wrote this huge
story about it. So that was when I felt like
I got such a better understanding of who he was,
where he had come from, how far he come.

Speaker 1 (38:41):
It reminds interesting because I think about my grandmother, who
was also a domestic worker and was fastidious about neatness
as well. She always had her makeup on. I remember
sitting at her vanity when I was young, and everything
just smelled good, and everything was just so, and she
was just I wonder, you know, I think about the

(39:04):
way my mother talks about it too. I think I
wonder if there's something about working in white people's homes,
and his grandmother worked in cleaned the dorms at Duke,
and I wonder if there's something about like the way
it internalized racism, of like how in the white imagination
we're not so clean and so so I wonder if

(39:26):
there's an overcompensation or something going on there.

Speaker 6 (39:28):
I mean, I always thought about it in the sense
that particularly for black women of that era, you know,
they were not seen as ladies, and even people who
were children, white children called them by their first name.
You know, they weren't given the honorific of missus or

(39:50):
miss and I think the degree to which they paid
such attention to how they looked was a way sort
of taking control of that and a way of making
it clear that they considered themselves to be ladies, that
they considered themselves to be worthy of that kind of

(40:12):
respect that an honorific implies. And you know, and on
another level, I think it was also just an element
of enjoyment, you know, I mean just the pure fun
and creativity and style of fashion and being able to
express yourself in a way when self expression was so

(40:34):
limited by outside factors.

Speaker 1 (40:38):
Yeah. There's an interview with Andrea and Charlie Rose when
Alt came out, and it was fascinating to me because
he race was mentioned, and Andre completely downplayed it. He
completely said, you know, it's never been about race, just
about being my work. And you know, I'm prepared and
you know, I did my homework. And it was just

(40:59):
very that in this This was in two thousand and
then much later on in the Gospel caring to Andrea
and in the second memoir, he talked a bit more
about race, but like in that moment, and I don't
know if he could, you know, I think the Queen
Kong moment coming out in the documentary for the first
time and that he had never uttered, you know, in
forty years. So I feel like there was an evolution

(41:21):
for him around thinking about race, or a feeling he
had permission to actually talk about the place he held
in fashion as the only black man you know for
a while.

Speaker 6 (41:33):
Yeah, for sure. I think it was incredibly difficult to
be Andre Yeah, in the eighties and the nineties, and
you know that comes through in chaffon trenches, you know.
I think when I first met him, I do think
there was a period in which he tried very hard

(41:54):
to downplay race. And I think some of that is because,
you know, it was a way to make dealing with
his day to day professional existence easier. And I think
there was also an element of pride, you know. I mean,
this is someone who had a master's in French history

(42:16):
from Brown. I mean, he knew more about in many
cases the history of French fashion than the very people
who you know, sort of looked down on him a
bit or used an epithet like Queen Kong, and so
I think it took I think it took some growing

(42:38):
into his place in history. I think it took some
gaining of confidence that he could be welcoming and he
could be supportive of other black people. And that's not
at all, you know, to suggest that he didn't do
what he could to open doors wider. But I do

(43:01):
think that you know, when you're all alone and you've
just gotten in the room, yeah, you're just trying to
get your bearings, You're just trying to make sure that
you don't get shoved out of the room. And I
think it took a while for him to move into
a place where he could be sort of the icon

(43:23):
that a generation of creatives wanted him to be.

Speaker 1 (43:27):
Mm Oh, it's so deep to me because when I
you know, I think about the moment in Gospel according
Andre when he tells the Queen Consler and he's in
tears and he's like, this is the first time I've
mentioned this in forty years, and I just think about
how what it means to hold it makes me want
to cry, to hold on to that. You're in Paris,

(43:48):
you speak fluent French, you know you were mentored by
Deanna Veelan. You're friends with Carl Lagrafeld. You because of
your knowledge, because of how exceptional you are, and that
is all sort of diminished in this racial flur. It's
so demeaning to walk around with that and to carry that,

(44:11):
for sure.

Speaker 6 (44:12):
And I think, you know, in a moment like that,
who do you turn to to commiserate with? Who do
you turn to who can understand? And there really isn't anyone.
I mean, I think about There's an incredible Hilton All's
profile of Andre that ran in the New Yorker. Gosh,

(44:35):
it was probably in the late nineties, and it was
such an incredible profile because it really just sort of
it follows him when he's in New York and a
bit when he's in Paris. And there is this scene
at the very end of the profile where Andrea has
hosted a luncheon for you know, mostly French fashion insiders

(44:59):
at floor and afterwards they're gathering together to take a
photograph to sort of commemorate the occasion, and the photographer
is organizing people and one of the women who is
there at the luncheon, a French woman white, calls Andre
the n word and says that she's not going to

(45:23):
stand next to Andre if he's going to be an
end word dandy. And there is this moment when you're
reading this profile where you just like gassed.

Speaker 1 (45:39):
And this is something that Andre would probably never tell,
but because Hilton was there, Hilton, Hilton.

Speaker 6 (45:44):
Tells the story. He observes this moment, and he describes
it as you could see sort of Andrea's love and
affection and vision of fashion just kind of shatter around him,
and he flinches and in an instant he laughs along
with everyone else and suggests that they all, you know,

(46:07):
go out and see something fabulous. And this story I
read ages ago, and it just really it stayed with
me because I thought it spoke to just everything. You know,
that's an incredible burden. I mean, it's a joy to
be able to be in that space and host a

(46:30):
luncheon at Cafe to floor and then you just never
know when there's going to be this moment. You know.
The funny thing is, after that profile ran, several people
who knew Andre had said that he was really concerned
about it and worried about it and was fretting.

Speaker 1 (46:47):
And did Hilton mention the name of the woman who
had said it.

Speaker 6 (46:51):
Oh he did.

Speaker 1 (46:53):
Ok So that's what they can sell.

Speaker 6 (46:54):
Okay, yeah yeaeah oh the group is named. But yeah,
Andre was sort of reassured by a friend that it
was that it was true, it was accurate, it was fine,
and I think, you know, you let it be, you
let it speak for itself.

Speaker 1 (47:10):
Wow. Oh. In some ways it's unimaginable. I can't actually
imagine someone saying that to my face. It's it's so shocking.

Speaker 6 (47:20):
And what you know, and what do you do in
that moment? I mean, I think, you know, what people
might do now is perhaps quite different from what they
might have done, Yes, you know in that timeframe. Yes,
But there's part of me that also thinks, well, the
reason that we now have the ability to respond in

(47:44):
a different way today is in fact because of the
way that our elders responded back then.

Speaker 1 (47:53):
And you had to stay, you had to stay in
the room, you had to like not have been there's
so much dignity and the way he got on with it.
There was something about that generation of black people, the
way they got on with it, the way they insisted
on dignity, on their dignity, the way they insisted on
being exceptional in the face of all that is just

(48:16):
I am endlessly inspired by that. That is why I
wanted to have an episode where we talk about andre
because he is so exceptional. And you know, after he
got the letter of introduction to Deanna Rieland and went
an intern for her in nineteen seventy four, and she
saw this in him. What are your thoughts on that
period of his life.

Speaker 6 (48:35):
Yeah, I mean one of the things that is so
striking is that she just she zeroed in on Andrea's intelligence,
his breath of knowledge about fashion, and I think, you know,
sometimes that gets lost in the fabulousness. Yes, and you know,

(48:55):
people sort of see the Andreas surrounded by the mountains
of Briton luggage and the Andrea swaning into a room
in a Valentino caftan.

Speaker 1 (49:08):
Which we love, which we love.

Speaker 6 (49:10):
And which is part of the many elements of Andre.
But another equally important element is how incredibly educated he
was about French history, about fashion history, and so when
he was making these pronouncements, they weren't just these sort

(49:31):
of flippant, you know, off the cough kinds of things.
They were really rooted in an understanding.

Speaker 1 (49:37):
And he had been reading Vogue magazine and knew Deanna
Veland and knew her work, and knew John Fairchild and
knew the world that he was entering as well. Because
of he was just so voracious in seeking knowledge and
wanting to get into this space and understand it. And
when you hear him talk about Missus Velan, it's like

(49:58):
it's almost like he adapts at her persona. I wonder
what Andre was like pre working with Missus Freeland and posed.
I mean, I think he's probably always himself, but.

Speaker 6 (50:08):
Well, he said that, you know, aside from his grandmother
that she.

Speaker 1 (50:11):
Was, she was the most influential. Absolutely, yeah, absolutely yeah.

Speaker 6 (50:15):
I would love listening to him in later years offer
advice to young fashion students. And you know, he gets
that question that is always asked, which is what would
you tell someone who wants to be you? And he
would always say, don't think that any job is too

(50:38):
small for you to do when you're starting out. And
she also would hone in on mind your manners, be polite,
send the handwritten note. Always just remember that manners count.
And I think that was just, you know, purely from

(50:58):
that southern upbringing, definitely from his grandmother, but also I
suspect from Diana Rieland, who had that same kind of
formality about her.

Speaker 1 (51:09):
Absolutely, that is one of the many things that Missus
Reeland imparted on Andrea. And obviously she wrote a letter
of introduction to many people, including Andy Warhol. And he
ends up an interview magazine and that iconic interview which
I could not find that he have you read the
interview that he did with mister Lagerfeld that changed his

(51:30):
life when he met in Lagerfeld at the Plaza hotel, and.

Speaker 6 (51:33):
He ends up with like five hundred locks like silk
shirts or something from.

Speaker 1 (51:38):
Crape machine, crepe dasim shirts that he wore. You know,
he had a whole new left with an entirely new
wardrobe exactly. Mister Lagerfeld was obsessed with history in a
similar way that Andre was teekually French history and then
very much influenced the work. There was just this this
connection that is really startling, and it's even more startling
to think about the falling out that happens forty years later.

(52:01):
But he lived in this world that he It was
a different world. It was a different world of crape
dishine shirts and you know, vacationing at Lagerfell's house and
having a different outfit on for lunch and dinner, and
vacationing at Valentino's house, and so there was this whole
world that was there was always name dropping, there was

(52:22):
always the who's who, who's there? You know, there's he's
always telling you who the important people are and anyone
who's anyone? And so there is that which I love
and I'm obsessed with. But I can't ever allow myself
to get carried away in that because it doesn't ever
feel real to me.

Speaker 6 (52:40):
Now I agree. I mean, I think that what we
sort of see in later years is kind of the
cracking of the snow globe a little bit. And I
think the magical thing about fashion is that it is
a fully constructed world. Yeah, and it can feel so

(53:04):
true when you're in the middle of it, but the
reality is that it's this sort of glorious fantasy that
is constructed by a pretty gritty business.

Speaker 1 (53:17):
Yeah, after a tiny little break, we've got so much
more for you. We're back. What oh god, you know,
to go in and we were kind of there, but
to go into the sort of the Anna wind tour,

(53:37):
and that the falling out up with lager Fell, and
Andre said, you know, when you're no longer on the
front road, then you know he's no longer interested. That's
I believe that's basically what he said, that like, oh,
you're no longer at Vogue and you can no longer
serve me. And so I don't know if there was
more to it. You know, who knows, and relationships are complicated,

(53:59):
and it was it seemed fraught with Anna. He would
sort of, you know, be critical of her in one
breath and then like praise her in another.

Speaker 6 (54:07):
Yeah, I mean I think they had a very long
and complicated relationship, but you.

Speaker 1 (54:15):
Know, pass like siblings or something to some degree.

Speaker 6 (54:18):
Yeah, I think so. And certainly, you know, when there
was the memorial for him in New York, I mean,
she was there and she spoke, and I think the
emotion that she felt was very real and very honest.
So you know, I would say to people not to

(54:39):
judge that relationship because I think that they both benefited
from it. And yeah, there was a falling out, but
I think that the roots of it were never ripped out.

Speaker 1 (54:53):
I think the business just changed. I think that what
it felt to me like the reading its book, reading
Chapon Trenches, and just think about and having met Grace
Connington and getting a sense of like her, you know
when she left Vogue, that the business had just changed
so much, that there was just so much less money.

(55:14):
These were icons, you know, greats and Andrea who had
higher salaries, maybe not as high as some people according
to Andrea, and it just wasn't financially feasible to keep
them on anymore. It just it could just be that simple.
And unfortunately there was no retirement account. There was no feverence,
it seems, and you're just sort of out when you're

(55:35):
a living legend in an icon, and there's something devastating
about that. But I think it was the knowledge. I
think it was when it feels like with laggerfelding with
Son Laurent, that just someone who could write about my
work in a way that is deeply compelling, deeply compelling.
I think about the moment when he talks about going

(55:57):
to Paris for the first time and getting to previews,
you know, getting to previews Si Laurn's show inspired by
Poor Yian Bess and asking him, you know, how do
you you know you've never been to the South, how
do you know about you know, these clothes remind me
of what my grandmother would have worn to church in
the South. And you've never been to you know, South Carolina.
And he said, listen to the music, mister. I listened

(56:19):
to the music in the car on the way to
the office, and I designed the clothes. There's a wonderful
moment in Andrea's talk at Oxford when he reads a
letter from Missus Reeland that he has framed, had framed
in his house. Was after his first season in Paris,
writing fulmens where daily. She said, you wrote about the
clothes in one of the best ways that I've ever
seen in fashion. She just wrote this like just amazing

(56:41):
letter that you wrote about the clothes in such an
incredible way. I've never seen someone write about clothes this way,
as if you were wearing them. And Eve agrees, and
she has spoken to Eve Si Laurwan and he agreed.
And it was of course about the Broadway collection. Inspired
by poor Yan Bess. I was able to find the
article he wrote and when where Bailey. I went to
the library and was a nerd and founded just to

(57:03):
get a sense of what she was responding to. Andrea
started off his article in the January twenty sixth, nineteen
seventy eight issue of Women'swear Daily. The article is titled
Whyisel at his most influential Porgy and Bess, sung by
Lena Horne, Leontine Price, and Pearl Bailey Nina Simone shouting

(57:26):
out Mississippi Goddamn and Eve Saint Laurent's front row ladies singing, clapping,
and stomping their boot clad feet as if they were
at a baseball game at Yankee Stadium. WHYI Cell's strutted
out Broadway, city Lights, Bourbon Street and big time jazz
in a couture collection that is certain to be one

(57:48):
of the most influential he has ever done. All that showmanship,
and to boot he still does the best clothes in
the whole damn world, said Nan Kipner. The great shame
is that it is only seen once. It should be
on television for the whole world to see. And then
he continues imagination with zest, vitality and energy marked the

(58:11):
show from start to finish. And there's more, but that's
how he sort of started out. The article that Ms
free Land refused so beautifully about his.

Speaker 6 (58:21):
You know, his writing sounded so much like Andre, and
I mean, I think that's like the power of really
terrific writing, where you can sort of hear the person
telling you the story, and you know, I remember, I'm
not sure it was this one, but there was one
collection that it was directly related to black women, and

(58:46):
I remember it was one of those rare moments when
he was, you know, just engaging in a conversation about
race and its presence in fashion in a way that was,
you know, unusual for him. But you know, I do
think that it was later in his life when he

(59:08):
was so much more vocal about diversity and inclusivity in
the industry. I remember there was a young woman that
he was sort of introducing around as sort of the
next it girl, you know, who was a young black woman,
and you know, the mere fact that Andrea was introducing

(59:28):
her gave her sort of social clout. And you know,
he was he would do things, I think, in a
way that was that felt organic to him without it
being incredibly obvious. But he was always sort of there.
And in two thousand and six, here I'll toot my
own horn to toot, you know, I won the Pulitzer

(59:51):
for my fashion coverage. Yes, and Andre thank you. And
Andre was so incredible because a group of friends organized
a dinner to celebrate and Andre came and he was
there with him, he brought this friend of his who
I had no one had any idea who this person

(01:00:13):
was who was taking pictures. Wasn't a famous photographer or anything.
It was just, you know, sort of like a young
guy that was taking pictures. And then afterwards, probably a
couple weeks later, I get this package in the mail
and Andre has created these photo albums of the evening,
you know, the kind with like the photo corners and

(01:00:35):
the handwritten captions and all of that to memorialize this evening.
And he sent it one to everyone who was there,
and he sent an extra one to me for my parents,
and I just again, I just thought it's sort of
quietly enthusiastic, and yet it also had this element of

(01:01:00):
sort of formality and emphasis on family, and it just
felt like something.

Speaker 1 (01:01:07):
But it's so insanely thoughtful.

Speaker 6 (01:01:09):
I don't know, you know, again, I go back to
his grandmother, something that his grandmother would have been so
proud of him for doing, and it was just, yeah,
it was incredibly touching and kind, and it was just
sort of going above and beyond.

Speaker 1 (01:01:23):
Yeah, he was. I mean I had the pleasure of
meeting him. We were doing Watch What Happens Live, famous
sort of controversial episode in some ways, and that's when
I first met him as in twenty fifteen, and I
was just sort of excited and in awe and we
exchanged information afterwards, and we started emailing each other, and
we've tried to, you know, sort of get together for

(01:01:44):
lunch or dinner or something. It never happened. And I
think I ran into him once more. But I remember
Rihanna asked me got my life down so weird sometimes
where Rihanna asked me to walk in her Savage x
Finty show in twenty nineteen. And I do the show
and I'm backstage changing afterwards, and when when someone comes
and says, Andre Leon Tally is here and he would
like to speak with you, and I I stop everything

(01:02:06):
I'm doing and I go and speak to Andrea and
he's like, oh, it's such an extraordinary showing. You were
so wonderful. I believe in twenty years we're going to
say this is the moment when everything changed, you know,
one of those Andre pronouncements, and it was wonderful and
I was like, it's so exciting. And then I was like,
what are you know, what are you working on? He
was like, I'm finishing my book, The Chaffon Trenches and
it's coming out next year, and he was just I

(01:02:32):
just love I just love him. And as I was
researching for this, he mentioned the show and me, and
he's mentioned me a few times. You know, he was
just he was so thoughtful and so just an amazing
human being.

Speaker 6 (01:02:44):
You know, that's such a wonderful story and I think
it encapsulates so much about andre One. He could just
be so hyperbolic about things, and you like, there's part
of you that's thinking, oh my god, he's exaggerating, but
then nine times out of ten he was absolutely spot on.

(01:03:05):
Because that fancy show did change so much. And you know,
and the other thing about it is that, uh, you know,
he he had this ability that when he really believed
in something, his enthusiasm for that person or that idea

(01:03:29):
was boundless. You know, he just he completely threw his
like everything that he had at it. And some people
might say, oh, I wish that he had been more
embracing of a wider number of black designers. Or you know,
black creatives or what have you. But there's something to

(01:03:53):
be said for just funneling all of that enthusiasm in
a more focused way, because he could just propel people
on that avalanche of positivity.

Speaker 1 (01:04:06):
I think the most compelling moment for me around that
is Galliano. What he almost single handedly did for John
Galliano's career.

Speaker 6 (01:04:15):
Yeah, I mean other designers speak about him with that
same sense, of the same recognition of his loyalty. I
mean Mark Jacobs is another is another designer who talks
about how important Andrea was to him and his career.

Speaker 1 (01:04:31):
Yeah. Absolutely, these are real, true artists of fashion. And
one of the things I love about fashion so much
is when art meets fashion, when the sort of collision happens.
And I think it's really interesting that Andrea started his
career interning from Missus Rieland, working at the med with exhibits,
and toward the end of his life he was doing

(01:04:52):
his own exhibits at Savannah College of Art and Designing.
I think there's something that felt full circle about that.

Speaker 6 (01:04:58):
Well. I think it's also important that his estate was
sold at Christie's.

Speaker 1 (01:05:04):
I saw that you were there. I was bidding on
some stuff I was outbid. I was like the bidding,
I was like, I'm out. I was out. I started out.
I was like, okay, I can do this, and then
I was online bidding and I was just like okay, no, okay,
I can't. I got it. I got it. Not for
the faint of heart, No, you needed to be that girl.

(01:05:25):
And I made good money. But I just I you know,
I think some weteil luggae sold for seventy five thousand dollars.
I just I was laverne.

Speaker 6 (01:05:32):
Okay, can we talk about the luggage for a moment, because.

Speaker 1 (01:05:35):
Please, I mean I saw that. I mean I saw.
I didn't see it in person. I know you went
in person to see the collection.

Speaker 6 (01:05:40):
Yes, I went to the preview, which was beautiful, and
his choir from Abyssinian Baptist Church in Harlem performed, certainly
a first for Christie's I'm sure, and just seeing everything
in person, you know, it was really The photographs just

(01:06:00):
didn't do it justice because the Kaftans were practically ecclesiastical
in the way that they looked fabric that was so rich,
and of course you know, Andre was six, so everything
is very large and very long and very sweeping.

Speaker 1 (01:06:18):
I wanted one of those caftans, but I just couldn't.

Speaker 6 (01:06:21):
And there were these three pieces of Briton luggage out
of a lot, a lot, a lot of luggage. But
I was fascinated by these three pieces, which were sold
as a lot because they were banged up, but they
had his initials on it. And you know, one of
the things that I had written about that luggage was
that to me, it just spoke to the fact that

(01:06:45):
here was this person who had grown up in the
segregated South, whose movements were constrained, who had been able
to move so far from those beginnings, that not only
could he travel the world, but he could do it

(01:07:05):
with such style and flare. And to me, that's what
the suitcases represented. And they sold I think the hammer
price was like seventy five.

Speaker 1 (01:07:13):
Thousand dollars, Oh my goodness.

Speaker 6 (01:07:15):
And a friend of mine said, do you think the
person who bought them will actually use the luggage? And
I was like, I don't think I would let baggage
handlers touch my seventy five thousand dollar suitcases.

Speaker 1 (01:07:25):
That's the thing checked expensive bags that you check. It
gets so banned up when you check bags. It's just
a disaster. When you get it back. I love this
story when Andrea goes to piece like when he went
to Paris for the first time for Women's Where Daily,
He's like, I arrived in Paris with thirteen unmatched pieces
of luggage. Today they would be matched. Matched, we tall

(01:07:47):
and certainly thought from his collection.

Speaker 6 (01:07:50):
Ever seen that much retall luggage belonging to one person.

Speaker 1 (01:07:55):
It feels like a throwback, too, Like does it feel
like that to you?

Speaker 6 (01:07:59):
I will say about the Wetont luggage, I did not
notice that any of it had wheels.

Speaker 1 (01:08:04):
On it, exactly exactly.

Speaker 6 (01:08:08):
That was a different era of travel.

Speaker 1 (01:08:10):
I noticed that too. There's a great story. When I
was at Jesse Norman's memorial at the met, her sister
was telling a story because Jesse would travel with lots
and lots of I don't believe if we tall or
like a lot of luggage, and she would just sort
of ribe at the airport and she was with their sistant.
She's like, Oh, who's going to handle it? I don't know,
someone will. She just kind of just someone's going to
handle them. I don't know who it's going to get handled.

(01:08:31):
I don't know how. It's such a strange. I love
these sort of over the top people because I have
I guess when I was a kid, I had these
fantasies of being that over the top person. But I'm
too I don't know, I'm too like practical or realistic.
I guess I can play that her in a movie
or something, but I don't know. I just love that.
I mean, I said, it's that sort of Oscar wild

(01:08:53):
and sort of a little bit Warhol thing of creating yourself.
Your life is a work of art, you know, creating
yourself is a work of art.

Speaker 6 (01:08:58):
I think that's one of the things that so enamored
people about Andre that he created himself. You know, he
decided who and what he wanted to be, and he
made it happen, and you know, for better for worse.
You know, there there were challenges, but it's rare I

(01:09:20):
think that you actually see someone who had this idea
of how they wanted to move through the world and
they were able to achieve it. And it's not you know,
about making tons and tons of money. This was really
just about this is how I want people to see me.

(01:09:41):
And he made those choices that.

Speaker 1 (01:09:43):
His jackets were lined with arimes scarves, for example, So
it was. It was. It was very extravagant, but you
didn't save any money, like you know, there was there.
I saw a report where Diane bun Furstenberg said, you know,
she didn't say too much, but she said that she
gave Andre some money before he passed away so that
he could take care of his house situation. I don't

(01:10:05):
know if you saw that.

Speaker 6 (01:10:06):
Yeah, I mean I did. I did, and truly, I
mean dianvon Christenberg was a friend through second thing. I mean,
she was really there for him, and you know there
were people who stood by him and helped him.

Speaker 1 (01:10:21):
It was just really beautiful to hear that there was
someone who was there and you hear the stories and
they went to they would go to see your fifty
four together and he would talk about how they would arrivee.
I mean they were like back in the day, they
were like you know, bikest thieves. You know, then when
things are hard, that's when you guess find out who
your real friends are.

Speaker 6 (01:10:39):
And she was there in Durham for his funeral. So yeah,
I mean I think there's I mean, there are a
countless lessons and memories to take from Andrea's life. You know,
one of the biggest from you know, for me, or
I think for anyone who's creative, is I mean, there
is that reminder that you not to let yourself get

(01:11:04):
so caught up in the magic that you forget to
deal with the business. I mean, thankfully there were people
there who were helpful.

Speaker 1 (01:11:15):
Okay, it's that time again. We'll be right back. We're back.
I think that what is so exciting is the knowledge
is I think that is he was an eccentric personality,
but I you know, I think about like how what

(01:11:39):
I might have in common. I don't want to compare
myself to a really all dellly, but people are often
surprised when they realize I'm kind of smart and I
know some things, and you're so smart. And I've heard
people say that a lot to me, and so I
think that, like there's something about when you're smart. You know,
when you have done your homework and you've done research,
and that shows and people understand. Missus Winter said that,

(01:12:02):
you know, she needed Andre because she didn't have the
same fashion history and knowledge that he had, so she
needed him when she helmed Vogue.

Speaker 6 (01:12:11):
Yeah, I mean, I think it's surprising that you know
he was in many ways underestimated. Yeah, and then not
so surprising because you know, at the end of the day,
Andre Leon Talley was still a black man in a
place where they are underestimated.

Speaker 1 (01:12:32):
Yeah, but in the fates of all that. And I
hear you and I feel that, and that's all that's real.
But what excites me about andre is that there's something
that is transcendent about him in the same way that
Anina Simone or Jessine Norman or Leantine Price, where yes,
they were all black artists and had to deal with
the challenges that black artists had to deal with, but
they transcended and they were royalty. They were royalty friendly.

(01:12:54):
Bewitch says, you know, her mother thought that, you know,
who's that African prince friend of yours, you know, referring
to an I'm like, that's absolutely right for me, that
is absolutely right. Andrea Lean Tally is royalty. And he
carried himself that way, you know, when the captains came in,
he dressed himself that way. And yes, he was black,

(01:13:16):
and there was racism and people were cruel and the
world was awful, but he was bigger than all that.

Speaker 6 (01:13:24):
Well, I think he saw himself that way. Early on
and you know, by the end of his life, he
had everyone else believing in him the same way that
he believed in himself.

Speaker 1 (01:13:38):
Yeah, he proved himself and he lived and he just
lived it. The receipts or the receipts he was living it.
Is there any other story about Andrea you'd like to
share with us, or memory or what do you think
his legacy or impact is.

Speaker 6 (01:13:53):
Well, I mean I will share a moment that I
think also speaks to his legacy, and that is a
few years ago he was in Washington and he had
been at an event at the residence of the French ambassador,
and then he did a talk at the Washington Post.

(01:14:17):
And afterwards, when most guests, you know, just sort of
say thank you and exit the stage, Andre stayed seated
and pretty much the entire audience just sort of rushed
forward to have a moment to speak to him, to
ask him a question. And he stayed almost an hour

(01:14:42):
afterwards because so many of the people they just wanted
like a moment with him. And I was really impressed
and amazed that he sat there and talked to them
that long. And I think he really enjoyed. I mean,
he loved the you know, all of the adoration that

(01:15:04):
was coming his way. But I also think that that
is ultimately his legacy, the fact that he showed creative
people that you can create yourself, you can create the
life that you wanted. And yeah, you know, he did
it in an imperfect way.

Speaker 1 (01:15:24):
And when you say imperfect, what do you put to me?

Speaker 6 (01:15:27):
Well, when I say imperfect, you know, because he had
financial problems and he I think spent a lot of
time sort of working his way towards a place where
he felt comfortable with himself in fashion as this you know,

(01:15:48):
this large black man. He got there eventually, And I
think that's a huge legacy for people.

Speaker 1 (01:15:56):
When you say that, I think about someone who's insecure
and not sure of themselves. And he says as much,
you know, and in memoir and in some fast talks,
that he was passionate about the work. And when people
always people think I'm confident, and I always say to them,
I'm not confident. I'm just passionate about my work. And
that passion over riot and the insecurity. And I just

(01:16:18):
remember him on television talking about couture and you know,
all the fashion TV moments. I thought he's sent on
America's next top Model as a judge, which is like
that was such an interesting time track a tude and
you know, he's just very it's he's just so entertaining.

(01:16:39):
I mean, he's so made for television in a way
because he's so you know, sort of over the top.

Speaker 6 (01:16:47):
Well, I think for a lot of people, he was
what it meant to be a fashion editor, you know,
in that very Hollywood, larger than LifeWay. Yeah, and he
leaned into that for sure. It became very adept at
playing himself on television.

Speaker 1 (01:17:05):
Yes, but it always it never felt like he was
parroting himself, though some people go into the realm of
self parody. It always because there was It was always
grounded in dignity. It was always grounded in and it
was grounded in knowledge, and it was grounded in a
real love for Ultimately, it was never about him. I
think that is the thing. It was never really it

(01:17:26):
was never about Andre. It was strangely enough, as big
as his personality was, I think it was about that
the manners and the respect. You know, he managed to
be that sort of grandiose and not a parody of
himself because it was there was so much love there,
there was so much passion and respect for fashion.

Speaker 6 (01:17:47):
Yeah, for sure, for sure, there was a real propriety
that he had and he could you know, there was
there was a there was a somewhat judging indeed to
Andre and he could definitely be a diva and difficult,

(01:18:07):
but you know, most of the time it was sort
of in service to the fashion moment.

Speaker 1 (01:18:12):
Yeah, absolutely, the complicated Andre Alt Andre Leon Tally. I mean,
I just I have so much love for him, and
I was devastated when he passed away. I wanted to
have more conversations with him. He is towering and his
legacy I know will live on. I in every podcast

(01:18:34):
with a question what else is true? And it actually
comes from my therapy, my trauma resilience therapy, where even
when the world is you know, upside down and things
are very difficult, there's something that helps us to get
through there's something else that is also true in a moment,
it's about living in the space of both. And so
for me, you know, what else is true today is

(01:18:54):
even though there's like you know, all these laws against
you know, trans people existing papway up in states, that
I have love in my life and so that is
also true for me today, So for you, Robin Givon today,
for you, what else is true?

Speaker 6 (01:19:08):
Wow? What a lovely way of thinking about things in
moments of trial. What is also true that I got
to try again tomorrow?

Speaker 1 (01:19:26):
Yeah? Absolutely for you right now? I mean you get
to try again tomorrow, like it is something what's going
on today? I'm just curious?

Speaker 6 (01:19:36):
Now, Oh well, what's that saying that you know today's
newspaper is tomorrow's fish rap. I mean, it's this idea
to me that there's always not even another story, there's
always another chapter to the story, there's always another facet
to the story. Today I'm writing a column which I'm

(01:20:00):
on Deadline. I'm actually writing today about about Jimmy Carter.

Speaker 1 (01:20:05):
A relationship to fashion or no, not a.

Speaker 6 (01:20:07):
Relationship to fashion. But I think there are two things
that fashion really teaches you, and that is how to
look and see when you're observing it an image, a
photograph of you know, a moment. I think it really
helps you get all of the meaning out of it.

(01:20:28):
And I also it also just sort of reminds you
that everyone is striving to be in control of their narrative,
of their story, and that you know, fashion is one
of the many languages that people used to tell their story.

(01:20:48):
It really does make you so much more attuned to
how people just want to be seen and understood.

Speaker 1 (01:20:58):
I love that of that, that's and not you know,
people can think fashion is very superficial, but there's nothing
superficial about that. It's always That's always been the case
for me. When I started dressing myself, it was really
about announcing to the world. In the words of miss
Rag from George Sea Wolf's Color Museum, I'm not your average,
ordinary pres Negro. I have superpowers.

Speaker 6 (01:21:22):
We understand that, right. I mean, fashion can be really
good at just sort of like directing people away from
its substance. But from the earliest moments, like your three
year olds and four year olds who have these very
strong opinions about what they're going to wear, and even

(01:21:47):
at that age, you just sort of innately know that
people are looking at you and you want to be
in control of what they see.

Speaker 1 (01:21:56):
Absolutely. Oh, what a process that is. It's great to
get to a place in your life when you are
when that integration is actualized. I mean part of being
trans is that too, like making your insights and your
vision of yourself on the inside. You know, the outside
match that. But yeah, it is a really powerful feeling

(01:22:16):
to finally get to that place where you what you're
going for is reading kaya right. One of my hairstyles says,
she reads, it's reading, you know, like the intention or
the story is reading right. I love the message the
book is being communicated. If she reads, it's fabulous, it's vab.

Speaker 6 (01:22:38):
I'm stealing that it's reading.

Speaker 1 (01:22:42):
Thank you so much, Robin for joining me for this
wonderful conversation about Andre, about fashion. Thank you so much
for your time today.

Speaker 6 (01:22:51):
Thank you so much for having me. It has been
a pleasure and I look forward to talking to you again.

Speaker 1 (01:22:57):
Absolutely, absolutely, Thank you so much to Norm mcmally and
Robin Gavon for sharing their thoughts, their stories, their insights
on the late, great the legend Andre Leon Tally. I

(01:23:18):
keep going back to Andrea arriving in New York City
in the nineteen seventies working at Interview magazine, and that
very first trip to Paris, and those moments that shaped
who Andre would become, those seminal moments with mister Lagerfeld,
with Andy Warhol, with Diana Vreeland, and I love to

(01:23:40):
imagine like a twenty something Andre like becoming you know,
becoming Andre, my therapist often says, we are hardwired for
story as human beings and thinking of fashion and fashion
stories and the story that you want to tell to

(01:24:01):
the world about who you are through the way that
you dress. Andrea told us so many stories about who
he is through style, through his interactions with great fashion designers, editors,
and stylists. And I love Andre's commitment to telling the

(01:24:22):
world who he was through his style, through his fashion,
through the way he saw fashion, the way he reviewed
a show or talked about a show, the way he
nurtured talent, the talent that he chose to nurture. Oh,
he was just great. He was really really great and singular.

(01:24:46):
And as I get older and want to keep going
artistically and professionally, the levels of excellence that are epitomized
and on Leon Tally, I'll probably never reach, but they
are aspirational because they are worth going for. Those heights,

(01:25:12):
those levels of excellence are so worth trying to achieve,
trying to get there, and there's just they'll just never
be another Andre leon Tally. Thank you, Andre, thank you
so much, thank you, thank you, thank you everyone for

(01:25:39):
listening to the second season of The laver and Cox Show.
What a journey. Thank you for being there with us
and for inviting me into your life. And thank you
to all the incredible guests who've inspired us, who've entertained us,
who've given us so much to think about. I love

(01:26:00):
you all so much. Thank you to everyone at Shondaland
and iHeartRadio, You're amazing. Until next time, stay in the love.
The Laverne Cox Show is a production of Shondaland Audio
in partnership with iHeartRadio. For more podcasts from Shondaland Audio,

(01:26:23):
visit the iHeartRadio app, Apple podcast, or wherever you listen
to your favorite shows.