November 2, 2023 • 53 mins
The legislative war against the LGBTQ+ community has been relentless and according to powerhouse civil rights attorney Alejandra Caraballo it may get even worse next year. Conservative republicans have introduced over 500 state bills this year alone to deny healthcare, threaten businesses and allies, and to try to force LGBTQ+ folks back into closets and shadows. But there are things we can do - and the first thing is to congratulate Alejandra.
This conversation was recorded in June (2023) when most of the legislative proposals were complete for the year.
See links below for updated legislative actions and stats and other resources.
Please rate, review, subscribe and share The Laverne Cox Show with everyone you know. You can find Laverne on Instagram and Twitter @LaverneCox and on Facebook at @LaverneCoxForReal.
As always, stay in the love.
Links of Interest:
Alejandra Caraballo on Instagram
2023 Legislative Session Tracker (ACLU)
2023 National Bills (Trans Legislation Tracker)
Map: Attacks on Gender Affirming Care by State (Human Rights Campaign)
Transition Related Care for Transgender Youth (National Center for Transgender Equality)
Transgender Legal Defense & Education Fund (TILDEF)
Campaign for Southern Equality
Human Rights Campaign (HRC)
Standards of Care for the Health of Transgender and Gender Diverse People, Version 8 (pub. 9/22, World Professional Association for Transgender Health)
The time to panic about anti-trans legislation is now (Vox)
The Far Right Is Calling for the Execution of Teachers and Doctors (Vice)
How DeSantis’ Fight With Disney Began (Washington Post)
Target becomes latest company to suffer backlash… (AP)
Other Episodes Mentioned or Relevant:
Reclaiming the Trans Narrative w/ Chase Strangio & Miss Peppermint
Transitioning as a Child & Beyond w/ Nicole Maines
Pushing Back Against Anti-Trans Media & Policies w/ Chase Strangio
CREDITS:
Executive Producers: Sandie Bailey, Alex Alcheh, Lauren Hohman, Tyler Klang & Gabrielle Collins
Producer & Editor: Brooke Peterson-Bell
Associate Producer: Akiya McKnight
See omnystudio.com/listener for privacy information.
Mark as Played
Transcript
Episode Transcript
Available transcripts are automatically generated. Complete accuracy is not guaranteed.
Speaker 1 (00:01):
Welcome to the Laverne Cox Show, a production of Shondaland
Audio in partnership with iHeartRadio.
Speaker 2 (00:10):
Whether it's forms targeting trans people online or governor's targeting
trans people in an entire state, fear is how they
achieve it. They isolate the community from everyone else. They
deprive us of allies by striking fear, and allies to
speak up because they raise the costs right.
Speaker 1 (00:34):
Hello, everyone, and welcome to the Laverne Cox Show. I'm
Laverne Cox. So I'm recording this on June twenty seventh,
twenty twenty three, and this year, over five hundred pieces
of anti LGBTQ plus legislation has been introduced in state
legislatures all over the country. And part of the way
(00:57):
I've tried to stay informed and up to date is
by following an amazing person named Alejandra Kerobio. Recently, I've
heard her speak in a few different forms and find
that the way that she talks about these issues, the
urgency that she brings to it, as well as a
depth of knowledge, made me want to do a follow
(01:17):
up to the conversation I had with Peppermint and Chase
earlier in the season. Alejandra Carabio is a civil rights attorney,
clinical instructor at the Harvard Law School Cyberclinic and a
transgender rights advocate. Alejudra previously litigated trans healthcare cases at
the Transgender Legal Defense and Education Fund and provided immigration
(01:39):
assistance to LGBTQ plus New Yorkers at the New York
Legal Assistance Group. Last year, she testified and from the
US House Committee on Oversight and Reform to discuss the
pressing issues of rising wide supremacy and hate toward the
LGBTQ plus population and the role social media continues to
play in making it worse. Alejandra previously served as the
(02:02):
secretary of the LGBTQ plus Rights Committee of the New
York City Bar Association and was appointed the first openly
trans community board member in Brooklyn. Please enjoy my conversation
with Alejandra Carabayo. Hello, Alejandra, Welcome to the podcast. How
(02:23):
are you feeling today, Hey.
Speaker 2 (02:25):
Thanks for having me. I'm doing well. I just got
back from spending a weekend in Fire Island and getting
engaged to my now fiance.
Speaker 1 (02:34):
Oh my god, congratulations. So when you went to Fire Island,
was that the plan that you were going to get
engaged or was it like someone tell me, oh.
Speaker 2 (02:45):
Yeah, it was definitely the plan. Actually, I was going
to surprise her, and she foiled my plans last week
because I can't keep anything from her. She like I
went to the jewelry store to go like putting the
order for the ring and like all this stuff, and
literally that same day she's like, where were you today?
Speaker 1 (03:05):
Amazing? So you did the proposal? Congratulations, So you are.
This is beautiful. So you're presumably in love. How long
have you been with your partner, with your now fiance.
Speaker 2 (03:17):
Yeah, just about a year actually, so we were official
starting in June of last year when we were That's
the reason why I was Fire Island in particular, because
we got together officially at Fire Island.
Speaker 1 (03:30):
Amazing. I've only been a Fire Island twice actually once
I like the gay part, and then once like there's
like a less gay part of Fire Island.
Speaker 2 (03:39):
I had this like beautiful moment with Wanda Sykes. Actually
I just randomly ran into her, like I was just
eating dinner and I was coming down from Cherry Lane
and she was there, and I was like, I'm horrible
at facial recognition. I am like borderline face bline and
I was like, I that looks I want to sykes.
And I heard her voice and I was like, that's
why the sikes. And I just was like, I just
(04:01):
wanted to thank her for what she said about transfolks
and her special and defending transfolks on her press tour,
like promoting her special. And then she was just because
she was dancing there with her partner, and then she
just started dancing with me and I was like, Okay,
I guess I'm going to start dancing. And then she's like,
do you want to hug? And I was like I
would love one, and she just gave me this like
(04:21):
really warm, like embracing hug. And she's a true mention
and just absolutely wonderful person. So sorry, I just I
know I do rerail the conversation with.
Speaker 1 (04:30):
That, but no, it's actually not a derail at all,
because I think, you know, I had a conversation on
this podcast with Chase Standio and my friend Peppermint several
months ago, and we were sort of talking about the
state of trans bills and whatnot. And I had done
a podcast with Chase in the first season at this show,
sort of talking about like right wing propaganda misinformation, and
(04:52):
we were playing clips and I left that conversation traumatized.
I literally cried for thirty minutes after that conversation. I
was like, I cannot have these conversations in ways that
re traumatize my And I realized last week that I
just finished a show. I was shooting a show in Georgia,
and I was just sort of like pushing down the
feelings of devastation and like now I'm just deal, Okay,
(05:13):
yeah this is devastating, and I'm just trying to tell
the truth to myself about it so I can like, actually,
you know, I'm all about both, and but I like
sometimes I add it. I don't both, and so I
don't deal with the thing that likes challenging and like
I push it down and so like, yeah, I'm devastated,
and I'm just I don't want to be re traumatized.
Because you're trans too, so you may you can probably
(05:34):
relate to this that like there is the sense of
like for me, just like put my safety and public
as a trans woman of color. It's just been it's
been like a thing my whole life of not feeling safe.
And then like the state sanctioned violence, and so it's
just like adds another layer of trauma when the state is,
you know, banning gender firming care for my community. And
(05:57):
I'm not sure if I will personally be effective. But
it's not even about me. It's about justice. It's about
I loved and I love trans people. I love us.
I think we're amazing. So starting the podcast with talking
about view being in love, like that you were in
the depths of like tracking anti trans bills and you,
(06:19):
I mean, this is a huge part of your life,
but in the face of that, you can get engaged
that there's love in your life. That you met Wanda
Sykes and danced with her and got a hug from
her at Fire Island is like the end of the
both and that being in spaces of community. I was
a stone all day here in New York and just
got my life like I hadn't been. I love being
(06:41):
around trans people and we were just having a kiki
backstage and like fully aware of the devastation of what's
going on, but like finding ways to have joy and
to laugh about it. It's like so important. So I
think that like so much of what's going on is
so dehumanizing and you and love you like you know,
(07:02):
being starstruck your humanity, Like you getting to have all
of that while you do this other work is like
I think, really important. So I don't think it's off
subject at all.
Speaker 2 (07:14):
It's absolutely so important to continue to have joy. It's
one of the things that I always like hold true
to myself is that it's the one thing they can't
take for me, as much as they try, right, Like
they can pass these laws, they can, you know, do
all the hateful things that they do, but we still
have our community, and we still have each other. And
if we don't recognize what we still have and find
(07:35):
joy in that and our friends, our family, our loved ones,
or our community, then that's when they really win. And
so we still have to be able to find our
moments of joy despite how hopeless the situation sometimes feels
and how dark it is, because like that's what makes
it worth living and fighting, because that's what you know,
it's what we're fighting to make sure everyone can have.
Speaker 1 (07:57):
And these laws and I mean, there's a lot of
things going on, I mean, but they're happening in part
as a backlash to the progress that we have made
that we were more visible now than we've ever been,
and this is the backlash to that. So that's part
of the context of this. So with all of that
having been said, let's get into the state of things.
Where are we with anti trans legislation that's been introduced
(08:21):
and then what's been passed.
Speaker 2 (08:23):
Yeah, yeah, it's well over five hundred bills. I think
our trucker which it just towards the end, we kind
of were just so inundated tracking so many bills because
it's just every day was a legislative hearing and it
was just something new and so much going on. But
we have at least five hundred and thirty two bills
about sixty eight that we've tracked as enacted, which is
(08:47):
a lot higher than.
Speaker 1 (08:48):
Ever passed into law.
Speaker 2 (08:50):
Yes, this is everything from don't Say Gay bills to
gender firming care bands, drag bans, drag bands, and we
are that states now that a bangenner for being care
for minors. Well, I know, it's tough because it's changing
every single day. There's so much to keep track of
because now we're past the legislative cycle and we're into
litigation season. So this is when yes, all of these
(09:12):
things are starting to get blocked in the courts, and
so I believe already Florida's was briefly limited, their medicaid
ban was limited. Obviously, Arkansas and Alabama are already enjoined,
and for those who don't know, and joined means that
the court orders that something stopped being enforced. So basically
like it's highly likely within the next year to two
(09:32):
years we see a serve Supreme Court petition go to
the Supreme Court.
Speaker 1 (09:37):
Yeah, yeah, that feels inevitable with the Yeah, it feels
inevitable at this point. So wow, wow, Okay, So I
don't like to get too much in the market. That's
because ultimately I don't think the government should be involved
in making decisions about people's bodies, like period, point blank.
So none of this should be up for debate. Whether
(09:59):
their children are adult, this none of your business. That's
my position. But with that being said, like what are
we basically looking at with these gender firming care bands?
Is there an overview of like what tends to be
banned just so folks can understand who might not know.
Speaker 2 (10:14):
Yeah, so there's kind of different grades of how they
did it in the States, they're pretty much all built
on the same template legislation that was pushed by far
right groups called the Safe Act or Save Adolescence from
Experimentation Act. There's a bit of a difference in how
they enforce these bands. Some of them criminalize it, make
(10:36):
it a felony, such as Alabama. Others go through medical licensing,
such as Florida to try and revoke licensing, although the
legislature that passed the ban after the medical Board did
include criminal penalties, including a felony for gender firming care.
And so runs the gamut and how they're done, but
(10:57):
the vast majority just outright crize this care. And others
such as Arkansas, they had done an outright band. They
were the first state to do so two years ago,
and it had been in joint since that time. So
now what they're doing is they're trying to follow this
SBA Texas bounty hunter style bill where it's not necessarily
(11:21):
a bounty per se. But what it allows is to
increase legal liability so people can be open to civil
suit in this case medical malpractice, and the liability is
basically completely open ended. It extends the liability for decades,
and it builds in basically a medical framework around malpractice
(11:42):
in a way that the legislature is directly engaged in
the practice of medicine. And I'm concerned about Arkansas because
they passed this law basically to try and circumvent the
injunction on the band that had been in place for
the last two years. And that's increasingly a tactic that
we're seeing. They're increasing malpractice to be from one or
(12:03):
two years to thirty years and essentially trying to regulate
the profession. And so we're seeing essentially the same kinds
of things that they did to abortion care a decade ago,
the trap style laws, the target regulation of abortion providers.
They're doing the same thing. If they can't get these
big bands through that criminalize the care, well they're going
to do it a death by a thousand cuts to
make it essentially impossible to access care.
Speaker 1 (12:25):
Yeah, I mean, for Florida is a nurse practitioner ban.
It's a really good example of that, right, So, like
nurse practitioners think that's been enjoyed too at this point.
Speaker 2 (12:36):
But it still applies to nurse practitioners are still criminalized
if they practice gender from acre in the state of Florida,
and the injunction that they got. Yeah, the injunction they
got was extremely limited and only applies to the plaintiffs,
So that was a very mixed bag decision.
Speaker 1 (12:50):
Confused.
Speaker 2 (12:51):
Yeah, no, it's difficult, and right now the orgs are overwhelmed.
They flooded the zone with so many bills that there
isn't as much capacity now to challenge all these bills
in the way that they would have been a year
or two years ago.
Speaker 1 (13:09):
Okay, there's so much minu shit, and I thought, like
I was informed, somewhat informed on this. That's part of
the reason I want to talk to you, because I
know there's so much nuance of these things that it's
just almost impossible if you're not a lawyer. And then
I think the biggest piece that I wanted to focus on,
even beyond the legislation, is the impact. It feels like
(13:30):
kind of so much of the way in which this
conversation has happened, and I think it's so important to
like just stay over and over again. How can sin
has been manufactured by right wing media, by social media,
by mainstream corporate media, that this center left to you know,
dehumanize us and then pass these bills. So the humanizing
(13:52):
trans people and how we have discussions about this I
think are critically important, But in a way, we're like
even beyond that because the laws are so we're so
in this minutia of like so many detailed, like back
door ways of basically banning care and then putting the
fear of God into medical care providers, right, And we're
(14:14):
seeing this happen with abortion too, where it's like, well,
if there's rape and you know incest exceptions, how do
you prove that? And like if the life of the
pregnant person is in danger, at what point is their
life in danger? And like we can't perform the abortion
until you're bleeding out, until you're like really on the verd.
So it it's like the healthcare professionals get like so
(14:36):
weary and like the and so they just they were
like I can't do I can't risk malpractice, I can't
risk losing my license, I can't risk going to jail.
And so people are just cut off from care and
we're seeing people flee states. I was just in Georgia
shooting a show and some of my coworkers met a
couple who had just moved from Florida to Savannah because
(14:56):
of everything that's happening in Florida, and they were you know,
the bathroom ban did, they were just like this, it's
really scary to be trans in Florida. And the Campaign
for Southern Equality, who I became aware of, they're helping,
you know, provide grants to people to flee states and
even flee the country some organizations are working on. So
there's like the impact. I know, I'm all over the place,
(15:17):
but the impact of these laws on like the ability
for people to access care who may be you know,
just living in fear.
Speaker 2 (15:26):
Yeah. So I'm originally from Florida, born and raised there
and went to college there, and my family also lives
in Florida, so you know, I have close connections there,
and I've been working with a lot of activists on
the ground there helping to amplify and boost messaging and
try to really hone in because it's very personal to
me what's going on in Florida, and it's just it's terrifying.
(15:49):
It's something that I've struggled with on how, you know,
being a visible person, like how to talk about this,
how to get the attention from like our sis allies
and out of convey the depths of how bad this
is without trying to essentially traumatize our community further and
(16:10):
cause them to spiral into panic, which at this point
it is a five alarm fire, right, So it's really
difficult to strike that balance. And oftentimes I have folks
in the movement they are like, you're being too alarmist,
and I was, you know, I pulled tweets from March
when the bill was first introduced SB two fifty four
in Florida that was going to severely limit gender firming
(16:32):
care for adults, and I was saying from day one,
this would be significantly disruptive for the vast majority of
care is provided by nurse practitioners. The way that this
would work in practice would severely eliminate access to care
to make it effectively impossible. And now the informed consent
proposals through the Medical Board would effectively make gender firming
(16:52):
care impossible to obtain.
Speaker 1 (16:54):
Can you talk about the informed consent proposal? I'm actually
not familiar with that. That. Yeah, there's so many elements
of the.
Speaker 2 (17:01):
That's yes, death by the administrative state, and that's WHYSANTI
is particularly terrifying in that aspect because they know how
to kind of push these things behind the scenes, but
especially the form consent is being pushed by the medical words.
So now the nurse practitioners and physicians as assistants cannot
prescribe gender firming care. It's only relegated to doctors, which
(17:21):
is governed by the Board of Medicine, which is appointed
by DeSantis, and he's stocked it full of political hacks
and people who've donated to his campaign and people who
are ideologically opposed to the existence of trans people, and
so they're now dictating the standards, right, and so they're
trying to put it in this informed consent process. And
now this informed consent process would require a suicide assessment
(17:45):
every three months, whether or not that's medically necessary or not.
Requires mandatory psychiatric or therapy care, bone density scans once
a year, at least a full assessment, I think believe
once every six months. You have to get blood work
every three months. I like talied it all up. So
I was like, if you're doing weekly therapy or doing
(18:06):
these bone scans, you're doing the like all of this.
It's like sixty something bus appointments and something like a
bone scan or blood work, like that's not you don't.
Just like that's not a quick five minute thing, and
you can't do that via telemedicine, and not telemedicine is
essentially kind of limited as well, so you have to
go in person.
Speaker 1 (18:24):
I've been on estrogen for twenty for twenty five years. Yeah,
and like I'm like, I'm vigilant about my blood work.
I've been very you know, I've been a good little
trans patient or whatever boned inc. Yeah, just like what
are they doing?
Speaker 2 (18:42):
That's what they turn the misinformation around, like trans youth
and you know, courtesy partially of the New York Times,
like pushing these kind of h disinformation around bone density
and puberty blockers now apply to adults that this is
not an issue, and like this is why I say
this is like kind of an underhanded way because like, oh,
well bone densities as well, I guess I'll get that. Well,
unless it's medically necessary, your insurance is not going to
(19:04):
cover it. And so you go in through abundancy scan.
They're like, oh, the DEXA scan is going to cost
like two thousand dollars.
Speaker 1 (19:09):
That was another thing. I'm like, oh, they don't. There's
not an expansion of medicaid in Florida in most states,
like we don't have universal health care.
Speaker 2 (19:18):
It's like, yeah, is like.
Speaker 1 (19:21):
And I think that's also the issue too. It's like
the barrier to like people acting like it's so easy
to get to ender firming care when we don't have
like national health care in this country exactly.
Speaker 2 (19:29):
And they're trying to roll back the standards basically to
what it was in the eighties and nineties where it
was like basically impossible you have to years and years
of therapy that was heavily gate capt and you know,
permitless carry in Florida is about to be enacted within
the next week and so that goes into effect. So
you can just walk in with no training, no permit,
no nothing, just get a gun, handgun and carry it
(19:51):
concealed all around the state wherever you want, no mental
health assessment, nothing, But if you want to get hormones,
you've got to go through this like intensive stuff process.
And I'm like, what is going on here? Right?
Speaker 1 (20:03):
But it's going on. I think the message to our
allies is that again, I mean, and I've said this before,
but I think it's important to say again. A lot
of folks are like, well, when it comes to children
in gender from a care that's up for debate. No, no,
it's not something that should be debated. At the end
of the day, the objective of all the legislators, of
(20:23):
all the organizations who have introduced this legislation is to
erase and to eliminate trans people from As Michael Knowles said,
we want to eliminate transgenderism from public life. If you
said transgenderism, but he meant trans people, like, that's what
effectively is going on here. They don't want us to exist,
and that sounds extremist, alarmist. Using words like genocide seems
(20:48):
people want to say it's hyperbolic, but it's just there's
too much evidence. Yeah, oh honey, how's that for a
little truth. We'll be right back. All right, We're back then.
I think beyond the medical piece, coupled with drag bands,
(21:12):
it's like for our non binary siblings, for our drag
siblings who don't necessarily need any kind of gender firming care,
you can't even put on a wig or you know,
bind or whatever it is. You know somebody needs to do.
So the combination of all these laws is about erasing
trans and gender non conforming people from existence. That is
(21:35):
the goal.
Speaker 2 (21:35):
That's exactly what it is. And you know, you really
get into specifics, right going back to Florida and why
people are fleeing, like you just you mentioned this family
that left and moved to Savannah for the reason why. Right,
So now they're banning gender firming care coverage for state
employees entirely, but not just state employees, any governmental entities,
so like county employees, so that includes your teachers, includes
(21:59):
your firefighters, your release officers, all of that. Right, So
that's all public employees throughout the state. You know their
coverage is going to be banned. So now you have
the bathroom ban that would make it potentially a crime
for trans people use the bathroom. Can any state owned facility
or government owned facility, which that includes airports, convention centers,
state parks, stadiums, So it's incredibly broad. And then you
(22:24):
have that don't say Gay laws, which basically force LGBTQ
people out of teaching entirely, and race our existence now
up through twelfth grade. Before us oh it's just through
third grade, but now it's through twelfth it's that it's
not about protecting kids. That was the pretext, and so
when you look at it is totality. What you see
is all of this legislation is effectively designed to eradicate
(22:48):
trans people from public life. It is to drive us
out of the state. And they are cheering because Rondas
Santus's press person literally was cheering at the fact that
LGBTQ people were fleeing the state. That's what they want.
And then the ones that stay behind to be quiet,
(23:08):
to go back in the closet, to not stick your
head out, and to basically, you know, exist in the shadows.
And that's what they're trying to do. And they're trying
to do this through legislation, and.
Speaker 1 (23:20):
They are succeeding so far. So far, they are succeeding.
Can you just tell, I mean, I just find the
bathroom ban in Florida particularly egregious. Can you just girl,
can you just tell the folks who might not be
aware of the specificity of the bathroom ban in Florida. Yeah, honey, this.
Speaker 2 (23:41):
One is like, it is the most convoluted one. It's
partially to avoid legal liability, to make lawsuits difficult, so
at the last minute, originally was supposed apply to private entities,
but now it applies only to stay owned or government owned,
which is very broad, which means obviously like stadiums and
airports that are usually owned by these like authorities that
are pushed out by the local governments by the cities.
(24:05):
But it also applies to all post secondary education and schools,
so all public schools obviously, but it also plaies to universities.
And what it does is it also empowers like Even
before they pass the drag ban in Florida, Governor DeSantis
was using the Department Professional Regulation to target venues that
hosted drag by stripping them of their liquor licenses. What
(24:26):
this does is the same thing on steroids. While there
is a provision to make it a misdemeanor crime for
a transperson us a bathroom and not leave when someone
asked them to, that's when the crime is committed. Is
so basically as a passing.
Speaker 1 (24:40):
Test, a this person assist I understanding as this person
if they see a transperson or someone they think is
trans right, because they because this happens too, they think
somebody's trans and they really aren't, they have the right
to ask the transperson to leave the bathroom. If the
transperson does not leave, they can be arrest and go
(25:00):
to jail for a year. This is my understanding of
the law is that.
Speaker 2 (25:04):
It's a misdemeanor, yes, but it's also limited to specific
state employees, so it's like very convoluted on who can
ask the person to leave, but then the state employees
themselves aren't subject to these restrictions to use the bathroom.
It is the most ridiculous law. I don't think it's
meant to stand. But the other aspect of it is
that it empowers the Department of Business Regulations and the
(25:26):
Attorney General to enforce this, and what they can do
is basically do this by fear. And this is what
I was more worried about when it was addition, when
it was the private portion, before they stripped that out
and realized that when it applied to Disney and all
these other places that they were going to have a
huge problem. But what they're trying to do is weaponize
business regulations and not those provisions are still in there.
(25:46):
So what they can still do is say, hey, Raymond
jay and Stadium in Tampa where you know the Bucks play,
and you know we're Beyonce plays when she comes to town.
You know they'll be like, hey, we can strip you
of your liquor license if you don't comply with this
bathroom band and they can threaten that. And the other
way that they do is is what I call troll legislation.
(26:08):
So what they do is it's the same thing with
don't say any.
Speaker 1 (26:10):
I love that. I love that troll legislation. That it's
so aptly name girl that is genius. That they're trolling
us in the legislature is yes, So it's not even
just trolling us, but trolling everybody.
Speaker 2 (26:25):
They're telling everybody. Because so last year the perfect example
of this, I think, don't say gay I think was
the perfect example of the troll legislation, right because whenever
they got hammered on it, the first thing they would say,
tell me where it says gay in the legislation, right,
And then it's like it says sexual orientation, what do
you think, Like, you know, we know what you mean
when you apply sexual orientation and say discussions of sexual
(26:48):
we know what you mean. Right. And so they write
these things vaguely and they know who they're going to target. Right.
It's the same maxim that's always been used. There are
in groups for whom the law protects but does not bind.
There are out groups for whom the law binds but
does not protect. That's exactly it, right, so we know
when it's Can you.
Speaker 1 (27:05):
Say that again? I've never heard that before? Is that
like a professor thing?
Speaker 2 (27:10):
I believe I remember exactly who said it, but I
think it might have been Francis Wilhoy or Frank Wilhoy.
Speaker 1 (27:16):
That is beautiful, that's beautifully put. Can you say that
one more time?
Speaker 2 (27:20):
So there are in groups for whom the law protects
but does not find, and there are outgroups for whom
the law binds but does not protect. And I think
that is the perfect encapsulation. So if you view that
through the lens of straight people versus queer people in schools, well,
straight person's not going to be questioned about talking about
(27:40):
sexual orientation if a woman mentions her husband. But if
a woman mentions her wife, oh, well, now you get
in discussions of sexual orientation, and that's you know, potentially
an instruction and sexual orientation, and now you could be
liable to lose your teacher's license and all that things.
So that's what I mean. The outgroup there is being
binded to the law, but they're not being protected by it,
(28:00):
and the in group is being protected by the law
but not being bound to it. And so that's exactly
the issue that we have.
Speaker 1 (28:07):
Also goes for like rich people versus everybody else exactly,
exact additions versus everybody else exactly.
Speaker 2 (28:15):
And so to go back to the original part of
mutrol legislation is that they do this thing. They use
very vague terms, very vague provisions, and then they hone
in and say tell me where it says that they
did this with the drag bill, right, they were like, well,
tell me where it says drag. And then at the
signing event where Governor of Rond de Santis signed this
at a very right wing Christian school in Tampa, you know,
(28:39):
he explicitly put out a pamphlet about how this was
targeted towards drag. So they try to do this and
one of the reasons why it's effective for them is
because when I've been on the phone with journalists trying
to explain these bills, local journalists, national journalists, and I'm
trying to explain it to them, They're like, well, it
doesn't say that, and this is you know, kind of vague. Here,
(29:00):
I don't know how it's going to be applied, and
I'm like, listen, it's going to be applied in this way.
This is exactly how's going to happen. People were saying,
we were exaggerating the harms last year around dun Say Gay,
that it was going to require teachers to put away,
you know, pictures of their partners, that it was going
to like forcefully closet all the LGBTT people that are
teachers or work in schools, and they were like, well,
(29:22):
it doesn't really say that as his classroom instruction, it doesn't,
you know. And then lo and behold, we get all
the horror stories about what's being stricken and what people
are being told to do. They're literally ripping off safe
space signs that have the Pride flag. So you know,
it played out exactly how we said it would, and
so it's incredibly frustrating when the same journalists come back
(29:43):
six months or a year later and they're like, wow,
we didn't really think it was going to be used
like this, you know. And so the bill's already been
in an effect per year and the interest has died down,
and so that's what we're seeing these incredibly vague laws
that they know that they're going to weaponize the state
to enforce.
Speaker 1 (30:00):
So it's so complicated too, because there's so much minutia.
Right on the average transperson, I'd like to think I'm
kind of informed and ultimately like the information that gets
to people, it just is like, I'm scared. I can't
do this. Why are we being targeted so much and
so intensely? And what becomes the impact? And you don't
(30:24):
really know the impact till it happens. But then it's
like for us as a community, we aren't even fully
clear on exactly what the law is because things are
written so vaguely and so broadly, and it just instills
fear and terror and what am I gonna do? And
(30:46):
I need to flee or I need to hide, or
I need to be cause how in the world can
we all know the specificity? You know what I mean?
It's like, that's partly why I want to have you on,
to get into the specificity. But even as we talk
about it, it's so convoluted. It's so we're just talking
a couple of states. There's like twenty states. They have
(31:08):
these gender firming care bands, sports bands, like that's a
whole other. I mean then drag band. So we're even
just talking about a small portion of what's going on
right now. So much of it is designed to fearmonger,
not only like non LGBTQ plus people, but to put
us in a state of fear.
Speaker 2 (31:26):
And yeah, I mean that not just us, even allies.
And so you know, I think that there's kind.
Speaker 1 (31:32):
Of the doctors that the providers, therapists. I mean, I
think that's for me, that's the piece with Arkansas and
most of the states is like to refer therapy is
gender firming care and you can't even do that.
Speaker 2 (31:45):
Yeah, yeah, And that's what really I think is at
the heart of this. I know there's like everyone's always
kind of said, the cruelty is the point. I'm like, yes,
cruelty is the point, but fear is the means. And
so they really weaponize fear to target the community. And
I think a lot of people, and I know everyone
has their very strong opinions as so, and from the left,
(32:07):
I understand the issues with rainbow and pink washing and
like corporate capitalism of pride and co opting all that,
totally sympathetic, but I think that even if it is
like in a kind of self interested way to provide
a more profit and kind of monetize our community. At
(32:28):
the same time, they also do provide a bit of
a backstop towards some of these bills. A lot of
the biggest groups that are working behind the scenes to
stop some of these bills in previous years had been
business groups saying, don't pass these bills. It's going to
hurt business, it's anti business. And what DeSantis did with
Disney last year, it's a warning shot. If DeSantis can
(32:50):
go after the biggest employer and biggest company in the
entire state of Florida that owns basically all of central
Florida and basically target them in this way, what do
you think the smaller businesses in Florida are going to do?
They're going to just stay quiet, pipe down. And that
laid the groundwork for the most radical, far right extremist
legislator cycle in Florida in history, because the business groups
(33:15):
that would ordinarily oppose this legislation just didn't say anything
because they were worried that they would lose tax breaks,
they'd be targeted by the governor directly, and that state
of fear, like that's an element of fascism. But that's
what they do. Like whether it's forums targeting trans people
online or governor's targeting trans people in an entire state.
(33:36):
Fear is how they achieve it. They isolate the community
from everyone else. They deprive us of allies. They raise
the cost right, so allies that are working in the
school systems or universities now they're stripping ten year at universities.
Speaker 1 (33:49):
Also afraid too, because I don't like to restate these
propagandistic talking points, but the propaganda in the right wing
media ecosystem that like immediately anything LGBTQ plus equals grooming
equals pedophilia. What happened with Target, I think, is a
(34:12):
really good example of a company that's been in allyship,
at least in their corporate pinkwash, you know, in the
ways in which corporations do ELI ship. And I've done these,
I've done these corporate partnerships, and I actually do think
it's good. We know what it is. But I remember
in twenty nineteen it was the fiftieth anniversary of Stonewall,
(34:33):
and I was walking around Manhattan seeing queer and trans
people in every store window and it was beautiful. I know,
I understand the profit motive. It was utterly and completely beautiful.
But because they've been able to capture the narrative, so
much of this has been about how they've been able
to successfully in the media to humanize trans people, equate
(34:57):
us to these things that I don't like to say
and repeat. That's been a huge part of the narrative too. Right,
So corporations are not only being attacked in ways in
which they do their businesses. We're going to revoke your
liquor license, blah blah blah, it's the public narrative and
perception of how they're being painted as well. So it's
(35:18):
like that conversation needs to just really be interrupted. So
it's like the fight needs to be happening on so
many different levels.
Speaker 2 (35:26):
Right.
Speaker 1 (35:26):
What amazes me when I think about like Alliance Defending
Freedom and I just know it's not just them, but
they're at the heart of so much of this. They
craft the legislation and give to state legislatures. Right, they
bring these cases to the Supreme Court. They're not just
doing it in the United States, but they're doing it globally,
and they're well funded, well organized, and relentless, and they're
(35:47):
working not just against LGBTQ rights, they're working against like
reproductive rights. So it becomes like, like where is the funding,
where is the organization, where is the urgency quote unquote left?
Speaker 2 (36:02):
Yeah, I mean it is incredibly frustrating seeing this. You know,
how we are probably the best funded we've ever been
in terms of having nonprofits out there, But you know,
I'm very cynical and nonprofits as any kind of pathway
towards liberation, particularly because of the incentive structures they are
oftentimes infighting over ridiculous things and grant funding, and the
(36:23):
also the incentives around grants and donations oftentimes miss aligned
with actual movement priorities and what will actually do more
for the community. Like, we are the best funded that
we've ever been, but at the same time, I don't
think I've ever seen a greater mismatch in what the
funding is being spent on versus what is like on
(36:48):
I think like at this point, you know, i HRC
is probably my biggest like punching bag, because I think
they're kind of emblematic oftentimes of kind of the excess
of constantly doing what favors wealthier white gaze, you know,
focusing on marriage because we saw the full scale mobilization
last year with the codification of a Burger fell right,
like full court press, social media, messaging everywhere. They had
(37:12):
celebrities speaking out, they had all the senators here and there,
and I was like, wow, so that's what you're capable of.
And then three months later when all these bills are
introduced like nothing galas, like tons and tons of galas.
Speaker 1 (37:25):
I gagged over that. I gagged over how. I'm like,
we were able to get past the filibuster in the
Senate for marriage equality. It was bipartisan, so I'm like, okay, like,
how did that happen. We can't get an equality Act,
we can't get reproductive bytes caught it by, we can't
get a pro act. I mean, there's so many things
we can't get. We can't get a minimum wage raise,
(37:47):
but we got marriage equality through. And this is when
it becomes problematic when people are like, well, gay folks,
you know, they can get what they want, you know,
when like there's all these other bills that are like
trying to erase our existence.
Speaker 2 (37:59):
Yeah, girl, like what yeah, exactly, Yeah. I think it's
it's partially you know, the funding the institutional backing around it.
The people who are there right, like even Republicans have
like gay children, and in the Supreme Court kind of
had cided already one way on this years ago. So
I think it's it seemed like it was easier to
(38:19):
pass that way. But I think infrastructurally, all these orgs
had been set up for basically two decades to end
at marriage equality, and we saw orgs kind of pack up,
like uh, it was an Empire state pride agenda that
just like completely shuddered in New York after marriage equality,
and they're like, well, that's it, and I was like,
what you know? And that was like after two decades
(38:40):
of telling trans people like, oh, don't worry, we'll get
to you once we get marriage equality. And then like
the funding you know, came down and I think, to
be a little bit fair, HRC, like it's not just them, right,
And I think part of it is they didn't see
this backlash coming. And I when I was working at TILDEF,
you know, I.
Speaker 1 (38:56):
Till DEV is the transgendr Legal Defense and Education Fund
for those Yeah, I don't know.
Speaker 2 (39:00):
I had someone there who I worked with, you know,
in twenty twenty one, I was like, look, this is
going to probably be one of the worst years for
anti trans and like I was, that's quaint now because
given how bad it's gotten since then. But I was like,
it's going to be one of the worst years in
trans legislation. And they're like, oh, isn't it bad every year?
And I was just like what, Like it just ignored
like what was happening. And I was monitoring a lot
(39:21):
of this stuff online and I was like, look, the
energy is building there, like this is going to break,
like we need to put the systems. And I think,
you know, it's partially the disruption from COVID. MCTE obviously
like had a bit of an implosion in twenty nineteen,
and so a lot of like the bigger orgs like
were really hampered. I think GLAD didn't really anticipate because
they didn't see this happening, and all of those things
(39:44):
kind of conspired together to kind of weaken the movement
in a way that we weren't anticipating. And I think also, again,
these are really big organizations that cannot turn on a dime.
They cannot just immediately pivot to new initiatives. And what
I've been trying to tell people, I'm like, this isn't
twenty fifteen anymore. You can't just go run to write
(40:05):
ed in the New York Times and expect that to
change opinion. You have to meet people where they're at,
and they're online.
Speaker 1 (40:11):
And the incentive structure online the internal data that Facebook
found themselves that online the air people. Facebook found that
when people are fighting each other and when they're conspiracy theories,
people stay longer on those sites. And so there is
an algorithmic profit incentive to have us at each other's
(40:33):
throats and to spread misinformation and propaganda. We should be
aware of that, just as consumers of social media and
how we are online. But then how do we infiltrate
How do we infiltrate online spaces? That really is the
work I mean, and I've done a lot of work
with GLAD over the years, But like media now is
social media, it's the Internet, and like yeah, yeah, okay,
(40:58):
it's that time again. We'll be right back, all right,
let's get back to it. So then, in terms of
solutions for me, it feels like there's the messaging piece,
there's the legislative piece, and the attacks tax there, and
(41:19):
then there's the impact on community and getting people resources
and getting people access. So there's like three different There's
probably more, but there are three big things around this
moment around anti trans legislation, right that like we have
to change the narrative that we have to fight the
bills where we can. And then I think the biggest
piece is like the impact on community and how we
(41:43):
get people resources, and so much of those resources are
mental health as well as like needing to flee if
they need to flee. But then I loved I saw
you on Leftist Mafia, the conversation that you were having
that I've had with people here in New York because I,
you know, I used to get my health care calend
Lord Community Health Center. They have a two year waiting
(42:03):
list because people are fleeing to New York. So places
that do provide gender firming healthcare on a sliding scale
that count, like calend Lor, like Aperture here in New York.
They are overrun because there's so many people who have
left other states. So there's an impact community impact on
people fleeing to you know, sanctuary cities or states that
(42:24):
those places then become overrun and there's not enough health
care providers. So is it about us getting more health
care providers in places like New York, Los Angeles, San Francisco,
Like what, like we've got to serve our community. I
don't know. I don't even have much hope around that.
The legislator, around politicians, the media feels hopeless. But I
(42:44):
do know that we know how to take care of
each other as in community, that we have found ways
to do that through the years. And for me, that
like that feels like where the energy needs to be.
But what do you think?
Speaker 2 (42:57):
Yeah, no, absolutely, I think mutual A when you brought
up campaign for some equality, and I think one of
the things that they're doing that's innovative is as a
pass through for mutual aid essentially to fund local orcs
that don't have the same kind of fundraising capacity. I
mean we've seen it every time, right, Like these things
happen everyone don't say a sale you And like, meanwhile,
a lot of the works that are doing the work
(43:18):
of actually keeping people housed, like getting them to appointments,
doing all of that work, often doing it on a
volunteer basis or for very little money. And you know,
those are the people that need the funding the most,
and they're the ones that are least likely to get it.
So Campaigners Out of Quality is working to do that.
They're also trying to do more emergency grants directly to
help people move, and that's something that nonprofits have never
(43:40):
been receptive to because it's just is not aligned with
the kinds of structures and the way that they're made
and governed and regulated to be able to do that.
But that's what we're going to really need to be
able to do this. When we look at abortion, abortion
funds have been the biggest critical lifeline to maintaining access
(44:00):
to abortion in this country despite it being banned in
so many states, and we need to basically emulate that
where you have like gender farming care funds that help
people you know, relocate out of state or able to
get their care or go to appointments out of state
so that they can get care if it's banned, or
you know, especially even for adults now that we're starting
to see targeted attacks on adult care. And then, you know,
(44:22):
I think one of the other aspects, as you're mentioning,
is we need our allies in blue states and stays
that want to protect trans rights not just to pass
you know, these kind of sanctuary laws which they're passing,
which are are great. I'm not going to downplay that,
But what we need as well are actual resources, Right,
(44:42):
we need more funding, and that's where the rubber meets
the road, and that's where there's actual work to be done.
We need states that are passing these safe harbor provisions
to additionally say, you know, we're going to fund community
centers and we're going to fund and expand care. Because
you know, I'm here in Boston and it has taken
me six months to see my primary care provider. It
(45:04):
is absolutely having an impact. And all of these issues
post COVID as well, and so at the same time
that there's all this increased demand, there's all these forces
that are kind of restricting care and access to care
just because there aren't enough providers and there's not enough
you know, the medical system is on the verge of
collapse here in the United States after COVID, and so
(45:25):
there's all of these issues, and like you said, it's
not going to stay limited, right, We're going to have
trans people leaving the South and the Midwest coming to
these states, and even if they don't leave, they may
be traveling round trip spirit with just them for an appointment, right, Like,
that's what may end up happening. And so as a
result of that, we have to be prepared to handle
that influx. And it's happening most acutely right now with
(45:47):
pediatric care for trans youth. But it's also affecting trans
adults as more and more trans adults leave those states.
And so just because you think you might be safe
in a blue state, now you're not. This will affect you,
and this will impact you, and you know, God forbid
a Republican come in twenty twenty four. They're going to
push this policy nationally.
Speaker 1 (46:06):
Which is terrifying, horrifying, And I think for people who
hear that and think, oh, that's not going to happen,
we can't imagine that we're in a post Dobbs United States.
Speaker 2 (46:17):
There's a fill in Congress already introduced in the House
that would effectively ban most gender affirming care coverage. It
wouldn't ban it out right, but basically make it impossible
to get it covered by insurance at all.
Speaker 1 (46:25):
Was that Marjorie Taylor Green's bill? Yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah.
Speaker 2 (46:31):
And just for people's peace of mind, that's it's not
likely to pass.
Speaker 1 (46:34):
But no, it's not likely to pass. Now. Oh god,
there's so maybe I didn't hear you say this, but
another expert in this said, looking ahead, the bills that
like didn't pass this year that seem crazy and extreme,
are going to seem less crazy and extreme next year
and probably will be passed. So it's getting worse. So
I do think the one thing that corporations can do,
(46:56):
and since corporations run the country is like is employees
can fight back. But I think was good at Disney
is that the employees were like, no, this is not acceptable.
And so whenever I do my corporate talks, I've done
my you know, diversity inclusion things or corporations, and I
always like to encourage employees or corporations to push back
and like to find out what politicians the corporations are
(47:18):
giving money to, and if they don't align with these
alleged values of diversity inclusion, then challenge that as much
as you can collectively within those corporations. I know corporations
are going to save us, but like, let's see what
we can do since they're you know, running the country anyway, Yeah.
Speaker 2 (47:40):
Anyway, sorry, just to fix side.
Speaker 1 (47:43):
This is a conversation that could go on for hours
and hours, but to be continued. Yeah, I like to
end the podcast with the question what else is true?
And this is taken from my trauma resilience therapy and
that thing that we started the podcast with the idea
of both. And even when things seem catastrophic and devastating,
and they are in the world right now, for LGBTQ
(48:06):
plus folks, something else is true. Something else exists in
the world that can get us through, that can bring
us joy, that can create resilience in our nervous systems,
that can permeate collectively. So for you today, Alexandra, what
else is true?
Speaker 2 (48:23):
Else is true?
Speaker 1 (48:28):
Yeah?
Speaker 2 (48:28):
I think for me, it's just that they can never
take our joy like they can try as they might.
They can make it more difficult. They can do and
say and pass all these bills. But at the end
of the day, when I was you know, I was
in Fire Island and I was in New York City
over the weekend during Pride, and despite all of this
(48:52):
terrible things that have gone on, I just still see
a beautiful community coming together and just seeing that we
still have each other and we still have so much
love for each other and support, and we are all
going to have each other's backs, and so you know,
I think this is a temporary operation. I think long term,
(49:12):
like we are, we're still going to win. We may
have a few stepbacks and it may take years to
recover from, but I think Glove will win in the end.
And I think our community has gone through much much
worse and we've come out stronger on the other end.
Speaker 1 (49:25):
Absolutely, without a test there is no testimony, and we
are being tested right now, and our testimony will be
incredibly powerful when we overcome. Thank you so much, Alejandra.
I hope I really want you to to leave this
conversation not feeling, you know, devastated and traumatized like and
for everybody out there listening, I want them to leave
(49:48):
with more information, but also like, yes, all of this
is happening, but you may maybe even know it was
happening before this conversation, and so you were like doing whatever.
So now you have the information, We're going to take
what action we can take today and on a daily
basis to combat this, to be there for each other,
to do what we can, and then we're going to
(50:10):
go and find our joy and we're going to go
and look into the eyes of the people we love,
and if we don't have those people, you know, do
something that we love that brings us joy. So yes,
all of this is horrific, and other things are true
as well. What is it legislati trolling? Trolling? What it
was the phrase legislation roll legislation? We got to laugh
(50:32):
at this stuff. Find those places in those bases to laugh.
Congrats on your engagement and thank you so much for
spending this time with me today. Thank you for all
the vital work that you do. Thanks so much, Alejandra.
Thanks well, that was intense, wasn't it, Oh, Alejandra Carabio.
(50:55):
I am so grateful to people like Alexandra who are
doing the work every single day and getting us information
tracking all of this. I don't want you to leave
this podcast depressed and feeling hopeless. I want you to
come away with things that you can do and something
that you can take away to regulate your nervous system
(51:18):
as well, so that you don't feel traumatized and scared
and hopeless around all this. So check out this campaign
forseeth An Equality. If you can't donate, elevate their mission
and share the link. And maybe for people who can donate,
they can donate. I also suggest the Transstice funding project,
and yeah, have our structural critique, have our awareness, and
(51:42):
then go and love on each other and don't let
any of this take away your joy to be alive
and to hopefully be yourself. All of this, it's impossible
to not have this messaging like seep in. If you
are out there struggling with your identity, with like loving
(52:02):
yourself as who you are, with trying to make the
decision to transition, just know that who you are is valid,
that the person that you know you are inside needs
to live out loud like. As hard as my journey
has been, I would not replace it for anything in
(52:27):
the world because choosing to live authentically, choosing to tell
the truth to myself about myself and then take action,
that's what transition was for me. The second I told
the truth and I took action around that truth, my
life changed for the better. So if you're out there
(52:48):
struggling in this world, in this environment and it's hard,
know that the truth shall set you free. The truth
shall set you free. Thank you so much for listening
to the Laverne Cox Show. Please rate review subscribe and
(53:10):
share with everyone you know. You can find me on Instagram,
Twitter and TikTok at Laverne Cox and on Facebook at
Laverne Cox Breo. Until next time, stay the love. The
Laverne Cox Show is a production of Shondaland Audio in
partnership with iHeartRadio. For more podcasts from Shondaland Audio, visit
(53:32):
the iHeartRadio app, Apple podcast, or wherever you listen to
your favorite shows.
Welcome to the Laverne Cox Show, a production of Shondaland
Audio in partnership with iHeartRadio.
Speaker 2 (00:10):
Whether it's forms targeting trans people online or governor's targeting
trans people in an entire state, fear is how they
achieve it. They isolate the community from everyone else. They
deprive us of allies by striking fear, and allies to
speak up because they raise the costs right.
Speaker 1 (00:34):
Hello, everyone, and welcome to the Laverne Cox Show. I'm
Laverne Cox. So I'm recording this on June twenty seventh,
twenty twenty three, and this year, over five hundred pieces
of anti LGBTQ plus legislation has been introduced in state
legislatures all over the country. And part of the way
(00:57):
I've tried to stay informed and up to date is
by following an amazing person named Alejandra Kerobio. Recently, I've
heard her speak in a few different forms and find
that the way that she talks about these issues, the
urgency that she brings to it, as well as a
depth of knowledge, made me want to do a follow
(01:17):
up to the conversation I had with Peppermint and Chase
earlier in the season. Alejandra Carabio is a civil rights attorney,
clinical instructor at the Harvard Law School Cyberclinic and a
transgender rights advocate. Alejudra previously litigated trans healthcare cases at
the Transgender Legal Defense and Education Fund and provided immigration
(01:39):
assistance to LGBTQ plus New Yorkers at the New York
Legal Assistance Group. Last year, she testified and from the
US House Committee on Oversight and Reform to discuss the
pressing issues of rising wide supremacy and hate toward the
LGBTQ plus population and the role social media continues to
play in making it worse. Alejandra previously served as the
(02:02):
secretary of the LGBTQ plus Rights Committee of the New
York City Bar Association and was appointed the first openly
trans community board member in Brooklyn. Please enjoy my conversation
with Alejandra Carabayo. Hello, Alejandra, Welcome to the podcast. How
(02:23):
are you feeling today, Hey.
Speaker 2 (02:25):
Thanks for having me. I'm doing well. I just got
back from spending a weekend in Fire Island and getting
engaged to my now fiance.
Speaker 1 (02:34):
Oh my god, congratulations. So when you went to Fire Island,
was that the plan that you were going to get
engaged or was it like someone tell me, oh.
Speaker 2 (02:45):
Yeah, it was definitely the plan. Actually, I was going
to surprise her, and she foiled my plans last week
because I can't keep anything from her. She like I
went to the jewelry store to go like putting the
order for the ring and like all this stuff, and
literally that same day she's like, where were you today?
Speaker 1 (03:05):
Amazing? So you did the proposal? Congratulations, So you are.
This is beautiful. So you're presumably in love. How long
have you been with your partner, with your now fiance.
Speaker 2 (03:17):
Yeah, just about a year actually, so we were official
starting in June of last year when we were That's
the reason why I was Fire Island in particular, because
we got together officially at Fire Island.
Speaker 1 (03:30):
Amazing. I've only been a Fire Island twice actually once
I like the gay part, and then once like there's
like a less gay part of Fire Island.
Speaker 2 (03:39):
I had this like beautiful moment with Wanda Sykes. Actually
I just randomly ran into her, like I was just
eating dinner and I was coming down from Cherry Lane
and she was there, and I was like, I'm horrible
at facial recognition. I am like borderline face bline and
I was like, I that looks I want to sykes.
And I heard her voice and I was like, that's
why the sikes. And I just was like, I just
(04:01):
wanted to thank her for what she said about transfolks
and her special and defending transfolks on her press tour,
like promoting her special. And then she was just because
she was dancing there with her partner, and then she
just started dancing with me and I was like, Okay,
I guess I'm going to start dancing. And then she's like,
do you want to hug? And I was like I
would love one, and she just gave me this like
(04:21):
really warm, like embracing hug. And she's a true mention
and just absolutely wonderful person. So sorry, I just I
know I do rerail the conversation with.
Speaker 1 (04:30):
That, but no, it's actually not a derail at all,
because I think, you know, I had a conversation on
this podcast with Chase Standio and my friend Peppermint several
months ago, and we were sort of talking about the
state of trans bills and whatnot. And I had done
a podcast with Chase in the first season at this show,
sort of talking about like right wing propaganda misinformation, and
(04:52):
we were playing clips and I left that conversation traumatized.
I literally cried for thirty minutes after that conversation. I
was like, I cannot have these conversations in ways that
re traumatize my And I realized last week that I
just finished a show. I was shooting a show in Georgia,
and I was just sort of like pushing down the
feelings of devastation and like now I'm just deal, Okay,
(05:13):
yeah this is devastating, and I'm just trying to tell
the truth to myself about it so I can like, actually,
you know, I'm all about both, and but I like
sometimes I add it. I don't both, and so I
don't deal with the thing that likes challenging and like
I push it down and so like, yeah, I'm devastated,
and I'm just I don't want to be re traumatized.
Because you're trans too, so you may you can probably
(05:34):
relate to this that like there is the sense of
like for me, just like put my safety and public
as a trans woman of color. It's just been it's
been like a thing my whole life of not feeling safe.
And then like the state sanctioned violence, and so it's
just like adds another layer of trauma when the state is,
you know, banning gender firming care for my community. And
(05:57):
I'm not sure if I will personally be effective. But
it's not even about me. It's about justice. It's about
I loved and I love trans people. I love us.
I think we're amazing. So starting the podcast with talking
about view being in love, like that you were in
the depths of like tracking anti trans bills and you,
(06:19):
I mean, this is a huge part of your life,
but in the face of that, you can get engaged
that there's love in your life. That you met Wanda
Sykes and danced with her and got a hug from
her at Fire Island is like the end of the
both and that being in spaces of community. I was
a stone all day here in New York and just
got my life like I hadn't been. I love being
(06:41):
around trans people and we were just having a kiki
backstage and like fully aware of the devastation of what's
going on, but like finding ways to have joy and
to laugh about it. It's like so important. So I
think that like so much of what's going on is
so dehumanizing and you and love you like you know,
(07:02):
being starstruck your humanity, Like you getting to have all
of that while you do this other work is like
I think, really important. So I don't think it's off
subject at all.
Speaker 2 (07:14):
It's absolutely so important to continue to have joy. It's
one of the things that I always like hold true
to myself is that it's the one thing they can't
take for me, as much as they try, right, Like
they can pass these laws, they can, you know, do
all the hateful things that they do, but we still
have our community, and we still have each other. And
if we don't recognize what we still have and find
(07:35):
joy in that and our friends, our family, our loved ones,
or our community, then that's when they really win. And
so we still have to be able to find our
moments of joy despite how hopeless the situation sometimes feels
and how dark it is, because like that's what makes
it worth living and fighting, because that's what you know,
it's what we're fighting to make sure everyone can have.
Speaker 1 (07:57):
And these laws and I mean, there's a lot of
things going on, I mean, but they're happening in part
as a backlash to the progress that we have made
that we were more visible now than we've ever been,
and this is the backlash to that. So that's part
of the context of this. So with all of that
having been said, let's get into the state of things.
Where are we with anti trans legislation that's been introduced
(08:21):
and then what's been passed.
Speaker 2 (08:23):
Yeah, yeah, it's well over five hundred bills. I think
our trucker which it just towards the end, we kind
of were just so inundated tracking so many bills because
it's just every day was a legislative hearing and it
was just something new and so much going on. But
we have at least five hundred and thirty two bills
about sixty eight that we've tracked as enacted, which is
(08:47):
a lot higher than.
Speaker 1 (08:48):
Ever passed into law.
Speaker 2 (08:50):
Yes, this is everything from don't Say Gay bills to
gender firming care bands, drag bans, drag bands, and we
are that states now that a bangenner for being care
for minors. Well, I know, it's tough because it's changing
every single day. There's so much to keep track of
because now we're past the legislative cycle and we're into
litigation season. So this is when yes, all of these
(09:12):
things are starting to get blocked in the courts, and
so I believe already Florida's was briefly limited, their medicaid
ban was limited. Obviously, Arkansas and Alabama are already enjoined,
and for those who don't know, and joined means that
the court orders that something stopped being enforced. So basically
like it's highly likely within the next year to two
(09:32):
years we see a serve Supreme Court petition go to
the Supreme Court.
Speaker 1 (09:37):
Yeah, yeah, that feels inevitable with the Yeah, it feels
inevitable at this point. So wow, wow, Okay, So I
don't like to get too much in the market. That's
because ultimately I don't think the government should be involved
in making decisions about people's bodies, like period, point blank.
So none of this should be up for debate. Whether
(09:59):
their children are adult, this none of your business. That's
my position. But with that being said, like what are
we basically looking at with these gender firming care bands?
Is there an overview of like what tends to be
banned just so folks can understand who might not know.
Speaker 2 (10:14):
Yeah, so there's kind of different grades of how they
did it in the States, they're pretty much all built
on the same template legislation that was pushed by far
right groups called the Safe Act or Save Adolescence from
Experimentation Act. There's a bit of a difference in how
they enforce these bands. Some of them criminalize it, make
(10:36):
it a felony, such as Alabama. Others go through medical licensing,
such as Florida to try and revoke licensing, although the
legislature that passed the ban after the medical Board did
include criminal penalties, including a felony for gender firming care.
And so runs the gamut and how they're done, but
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the vast majority just outright crize this care. And others
such as Arkansas, they had done an outright band. They
were the first state to do so two years ago,
and it had been in joint since that time. So
now what they're doing is they're trying to follow this
SBA Texas bounty hunter style bill where it's not necessarily
(11:21):
a bounty per se. But what it allows is to
increase legal liability so people can be open to civil
suit in this case medical malpractice, and the liability is
basically completely open ended. It extends the liability for decades,
and it builds in basically a medical framework around malpractice
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in a way that the legislature is directly engaged in
the practice of medicine. And I'm concerned about Arkansas because
they passed this law basically to try and circumvent the
injunction on the band that had been in place for
the last two years. And that's increasingly a tactic that
we're seeing. They're increasing malpractice to be from one or
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two years to thirty years and essentially trying to regulate
the profession. And so we're seeing essentially the same kinds
of things that they did to abortion care a decade ago,
the trap style laws, the target regulation of abortion providers.
They're doing the same thing. If they can't get these
big bands through that criminalize the care, well they're going
to do it a death by a thousand cuts to
make it essentially impossible to access care.
Speaker 1 (12:25):
Yeah, I mean, for Florida is a nurse practitioner ban.
It's a really good example of that, right, So, like
nurse practitioners think that's been enjoyed too at this point.
Speaker 2 (12:36):
But it still applies to nurse practitioners are still criminalized
if they practice gender from acre in the state of Florida,
and the injunction that they got. Yeah, the injunction they
got was extremely limited and only applies to the plaintiffs,
So that was a very mixed bag decision.
Speaker 1 (12:50):
Confused.
Speaker 2 (12:51):
Yeah, no, it's difficult, and right now the orgs are overwhelmed.
They flooded the zone with so many bills that there
isn't as much capacity now to challenge all these bills
in the way that they would have been a year
or two years ago.
Speaker 1 (13:09):
Okay, there's so much minu shit, and I thought, like
I was informed, somewhat informed on this. That's part of
the reason I want to talk to you, because I
know there's so much nuance of these things that it's
just almost impossible if you're not a lawyer. And then
I think the biggest piece that I wanted to focus on,
even beyond the legislation, is the impact. It feels like
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kind of so much of the way in which this
conversation has happened, and I think it's so important to
like just stay over and over again. How can sin
has been manufactured by right wing media, by social media,
by mainstream corporate media, that this center left to you know,
dehumanize us and then pass these bills. So the humanizing
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trans people and how we have discussions about this I
think are critically important, But in a way, we're like
even beyond that because the laws are so we're so
in this minutia of like so many detailed, like back
door ways of basically banning care and then putting the
fear of God into medical care providers, right, And we're
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seeing this happen with abortion too, where it's like, well,
if there's rape and you know incest exceptions, how do
you prove that? And like if the life of the
pregnant person is in danger, at what point is their
life in danger? And like we can't perform the abortion
until you're bleeding out, until you're like really on the verd.
So it it's like the healthcare professionals get like so
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weary and like the and so they just they were
like I can't do I can't risk malpractice, I can't
risk losing my license, I can't risk going to jail.
And so people are just cut off from care and
we're seeing people flee states. I was just in Georgia
shooting a show and some of my coworkers met a
couple who had just moved from Florida to Savannah because
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of everything that's happening in Florida, and they were you know,
the bathroom ban did, they were just like this, it's
really scary to be trans in Florida. And the Campaign
for Southern Equality, who I became aware of, they're helping,
you know, provide grants to people to flee states and
even flee the country some organizations are working on. So
there's like the impact. I know, I'm all over the place,
(15:17):
but the impact of these laws on like the ability
for people to access care who may be you know,
just living in fear.
Speaker 2 (15:26):
Yeah. So I'm originally from Florida, born and raised there
and went to college there, and my family also lives
in Florida, so you know, I have close connections there,
and I've been working with a lot of activists on
the ground there helping to amplify and boost messaging and
try to really hone in because it's very personal to
me what's going on in Florida, and it's just it's terrifying.
(15:49):
It's something that I've struggled with on how, you know,
being a visible person, like how to talk about this,
how to get the attention from like our sis allies
and out of convey the depths of how bad this
is without trying to essentially traumatize our community further and
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cause them to spiral into panic, which at this point
it is a five alarm fire, right, So it's really
difficult to strike that balance. And oftentimes I have folks
in the movement they are like, you're being too alarmist,
and I was, you know, I pulled tweets from March
when the bill was first introduced SB two fifty four
in Florida that was going to severely limit gender firming
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care for adults, and I was saying from day one,
this would be significantly disruptive for the vast majority of
care is provided by nurse practitioners. The way that this
would work in practice would severely eliminate access to care
to make it effectively impossible. And now the informed consent
proposals through the Medical Board would effectively make gender firming
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care impossible to obtain.
Speaker 1 (16:54):
Can you talk about the informed consent proposal? I'm actually
not familiar with that. That. Yeah, there's so many elements
of the.
Speaker 2 (17:01):
That's yes, death by the administrative state, and that's WHYSANTI
is particularly terrifying in that aspect because they know how
to kind of push these things behind the scenes, but
especially the form consent is being pushed by the medical words.
So now the nurse practitioners and physicians as assistants cannot
prescribe gender firming care. It's only relegated to doctors, which
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is governed by the Board of Medicine, which is appointed
by DeSantis, and he's stocked it full of political hacks
and people who've donated to his campaign and people who
are ideologically opposed to the existence of trans people, and
so they're now dictating the standards, right, and so they're
trying to put it in this informed consent process. And
now this informed consent process would require a suicide assessment
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every three months, whether or not that's medically necessary or not.
Requires mandatory psychiatric or therapy care, bone density scans once
a year, at least a full assessment, I think believe
once every six months. You have to get blood work
every three months. I like talied it all up. So
I was like, if you're doing weekly therapy or doing
(18:06):
these bone scans, you're doing the like all of this.
It's like sixty something bus appointments and something like a
bone scan or blood work, like that's not you don't.
Just like that's not a quick five minute thing, and
you can't do that via telemedicine, and not telemedicine is
essentially kind of limited as well, so you have to
go in person.
Speaker 1 (18:24):
I've been on estrogen for twenty for twenty five years. Yeah,
and like I'm like, I'm vigilant about my blood work.
I've been very you know, I've been a good little
trans patient or whatever boned inc. Yeah, just like what
are they doing?
Speaker 2 (18:42):
That's what they turn the misinformation around, like trans youth
and you know, courtesy partially of the New York Times,
like pushing these kind of h disinformation around bone density
and puberty blockers now apply to adults that this is
not an issue, and like this is why I say
this is like kind of an underhanded way because like, oh,
well bone densities as well, I guess I'll get that. Well,
unless it's medically necessary, your insurance is not going to
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cover it. And so you go in through abundancy scan.
They're like, oh, the DEXA scan is going to cost
like two thousand dollars.
Speaker 1 (19:09):
That was another thing. I'm like, oh, they don't. There's
not an expansion of medicaid in Florida in most states,
like we don't have universal health care.
Speaker 2 (19:18):
It's like, yeah, is like.
Speaker 1 (19:21):
And I think that's also the issue too. It's like
the barrier to like people acting like it's so easy
to get to ender firming care when we don't have
like national health care in this country exactly.
Speaker 2 (19:29):
And they're trying to roll back the standards basically to
what it was in the eighties and nineties where it
was like basically impossible you have to years and years
of therapy that was heavily gate capt and you know,
permitless carry in Florida is about to be enacted within
the next week and so that goes into effect. So
you can just walk in with no training, no permit,
no nothing, just get a gun, handgun and carry it
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concealed all around the state wherever you want, no mental
health assessment, nothing, But if you want to get hormones,
you've got to go through this like intensive stuff process.
And I'm like, what is going on here? Right?
Speaker 1 (20:03):
But it's going on. I think the message to our
allies is that again, I mean, and I've said this before,
but I think it's important to say again. A lot
of folks are like, well, when it comes to children
in gender from a care that's up for debate. No, no,
it's not something that should be debated. At the end
of the day, the objective of all the legislators, of
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all the organizations who have introduced this legislation is to
erase and to eliminate trans people from As Michael Knowles said,
we want to eliminate transgenderism from public life. If you
said transgenderism, but he meant trans people, like, that's what
effectively is going on here. They don't want us to exist,
and that sounds extremist, alarmist. Using words like genocide seems
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people want to say it's hyperbolic, but it's just there's
too much evidence. Yeah, oh honey, how's that for a
little truth. We'll be right back. All right, We're back then.
I think beyond the medical piece, coupled with drag bands,
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it's like for our non binary siblings, for our drag
siblings who don't necessarily need any kind of gender firming care,
you can't even put on a wig or you know,
bind or whatever it is. You know somebody needs to do.
So the combination of all these laws is about erasing
trans and gender non conforming people from existence. That is
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the goal.
Speaker 2 (21:35):
That's exactly what it is. And you know, you really
get into specifics, right going back to Florida and why
people are fleeing, like you just you mentioned this family
that left and moved to Savannah for the reason why. Right,
So now they're banning gender firming care coverage for state
employees entirely, but not just state employees, any governmental entities,
so like county employees, so that includes your teachers, includes
(21:59):
your firefighters, your release officers, all of that. Right, So
that's all public employees throughout the state. You know their
coverage is going to be banned. So now you have
the bathroom ban that would make it potentially a crime
for trans people use the bathroom. Can any state owned facility
or government owned facility, which that includes airports, convention centers,
state parks, stadiums, So it's incredibly broad. And then you
(22:24):
have that don't say Gay laws, which basically force LGBTQ
people out of teaching entirely, and race our existence now
up through twelfth grade. Before us oh it's just through
third grade, but now it's through twelfth it's that it's
not about protecting kids. That was the pretext, and so
when you look at it is totality. What you see
is all of this legislation is effectively designed to eradicate
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trans people from public life. It is to drive us
out of the state. And they are cheering because Rondas
Santus's press person literally was cheering at the fact that
LGBTQ people were fleeing the state. That's what they want.
And then the ones that stay behind to be quiet,
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to go back in the closet, to not stick your
head out, and to basically, you know, exist in the shadows.
And that's what they're trying to do. And they're trying
to do this through legislation, and.
Speaker 1 (23:20):
They are succeeding so far. So far, they are succeeding.
Can you just tell, I mean, I just find the
bathroom ban in Florida particularly egregious. Can you just girl,
can you just tell the folks who might not be
aware of the specificity of the bathroom ban in Florida. Yeah, honey, this.
Speaker 2 (23:41):
One is like, it is the most convoluted one. It's
partially to avoid legal liability, to make lawsuits difficult, so
at the last minute, originally was supposed apply to private entities,
but now it applies only to stay owned or government owned,
which is very broad, which means obviously like stadiums and
airports that are usually owned by these like authorities that
are pushed out by the local governments by the cities.
(24:05):
But it also applies to all post secondary education and schools,
so all public schools obviously, but it also plaies to universities.
And what it does is it also empowers like Even
before they pass the drag ban in Florida, Governor DeSantis
was using the Department Professional Regulation to target venues that
hosted drag by stripping them of their liquor licenses. What
(24:26):
this does is the same thing on steroids. While there
is a provision to make it a misdemeanor crime for
a transperson us a bathroom and not leave when someone
asked them to, that's when the crime is committed. Is
so basically as a passing.
Speaker 1 (24:40):
Test, a this person assist I understanding as this person
if they see a transperson or someone they think is
trans right, because they because this happens too, they think
somebody's trans and they really aren't, they have the right
to ask the transperson to leave the bathroom. If the
transperson does not leave, they can be arrest and go
(25:00):
to jail for a year. This is my understanding of
the law is that.
Speaker 2 (25:04):
It's a misdemeanor, yes, but it's also limited to specific
state employees, so it's like very convoluted on who can
ask the person to leave, but then the state employees
themselves aren't subject to these restrictions to use the bathroom.
It is the most ridiculous law. I don't think it's
meant to stand. But the other aspect of it is
that it empowers the Department of Business Regulations and the
(25:26):
Attorney General to enforce this, and what they can do
is basically do this by fear. And this is what
I was more worried about when it was addition, when
it was the private portion, before they stripped that out
and realized that when it applied to Disney and all
these other places that they were going to have a
huge problem. But what they're trying to do is weaponize
business regulations and not those provisions are still in there.
(25:46):
So what they can still do is say, hey, Raymond
jay and Stadium in Tampa where you know the Bucks play,
and you know we're Beyonce plays when she comes to town.
You know they'll be like, hey, we can strip you
of your liquor license if you don't comply with this
bathroom band and they can threaten that. And the other
way that they do is is what I call troll legislation.
(26:08):
So what they do is it's the same thing with
don't say any.
Speaker 1 (26:10):
I love that. I love that troll legislation. That it's
so aptly name girl that is genius. That they're trolling
us in the legislature is yes, So it's not even
just trolling us, but trolling everybody.
Speaker 2 (26:25):
They're telling everybody. Because so last year the perfect example
of this, I think, don't say gay I think was
the perfect example of the troll legislation, right because whenever
they got hammered on it, the first thing they would say,
tell me where it says gay in the legislation, right,
And then it's like it says sexual orientation, what do
you think, Like, you know, we know what you mean
when you apply sexual orientation and say discussions of sexual
(26:48):
we know what you mean. Right. And so they write
these things vaguely and they know who they're going to target. Right.
It's the same maxim that's always been used. There are
in groups for whom the law protects but does not bind.
There are out groups for whom the law binds but
does not protect. That's exactly it, right, so we know
when it's Can you.
Speaker 1 (27:05):
Say that again? I've never heard that before? Is that
like a professor thing?
Speaker 2 (27:10):
I believe I remember exactly who said it, but I
think it might have been Francis Wilhoy or Frank Wilhoy.
Speaker 1 (27:16):
That is beautiful, that's beautifully put. Can you say that
one more time?
Speaker 2 (27:20):
So there are in groups for whom the law protects
but does not find, and there are outgroups for whom
the law binds but does not protect. And I think
that is the perfect encapsulation. So if you view that
through the lens of straight people versus queer people in schools, well,
straight person's not going to be questioned about talking about
(27:40):
sexual orientation if a woman mentions her husband. But if
a woman mentions her wife, oh, well, now you get
in discussions of sexual orientation, and that's you know, potentially
an instruction and sexual orientation, and now you could be
liable to lose your teacher's license and all that things.
So that's what I mean. The outgroup there is being
binded to the law, but they're not being protected by it,
(28:00):
and the in group is being protected by the law
but not being bound to it. And so that's exactly
the issue that we have.
Speaker 1 (28:07):
Also goes for like rich people versus everybody else exactly,
exact additions versus everybody else exactly.
Speaker 2 (28:15):
And so to go back to the original part of
mutrol legislation is that they do this thing. They use
very vague terms, very vague provisions, and then they hone
in and say tell me where it says that they
did this with the drag bill, right, they were like, well,
tell me where it says drag. And then at the
signing event where Governor of Rond de Santis signed this
at a very right wing Christian school in Tampa, you know,
(28:39):
he explicitly put out a pamphlet about how this was
targeted towards drag. So they try to do this and
one of the reasons why it's effective for them is
because when I've been on the phone with journalists trying
to explain these bills, local journalists, national journalists, and I'm
trying to explain it to them, They're like, well, it
doesn't say that, and this is you know, kind of vague. Here,
(29:00):
I don't know how it's going to be applied, and
I'm like, listen, it's going to be applied in this way.
This is exactly how's going to happen. People were saying,
we were exaggerating the harms last year around dun Say Gay,
that it was going to require teachers to put away,
you know, pictures of their partners, that it was going
to like forcefully closet all the LGBTT people that are
teachers or work in schools, and they were like, well,
(29:22):
it doesn't really say that as his classroom instruction, it doesn't,
you know. And then lo and behold, we get all
the horror stories about what's being stricken and what people
are being told to do. They're literally ripping off safe
space signs that have the Pride flag. So you know,
it played out exactly how we said it would, and
so it's incredibly frustrating when the same journalists come back
(29:43):
six months or a year later and they're like, wow,
we didn't really think it was going to be used
like this, you know. And so the bill's already been
in an effect per year and the interest has died down,
and so that's what we're seeing these incredibly vague laws
that they know that they're going to weaponize the state
to enforce.
Speaker 1 (30:00):
So it's so complicated too, because there's so much minutia.
Right on the average transperson, I'd like to think I'm
kind of informed and ultimately like the information that gets
to people, it just is like, I'm scared. I can't
do this. Why are we being targeted so much and
so intensely? And what becomes the impact? And you don't
(30:24):
really know the impact till it happens. But then it's
like for us as a community, we aren't even fully
clear on exactly what the law is because things are
written so vaguely and so broadly, and it just instills
fear and terror and what am I gonna do? And
(30:46):
I need to flee or I need to hide, or
I need to be cause how in the world can
we all know the specificity? You know what I mean?
It's like, that's partly why I want to have you on,
to get into the specificity. But even as we talk
about it, it's so convoluted. It's so we're just talking
a couple of states. There's like twenty states. They have
(31:08):
these gender firming care bands, sports bands, like that's a
whole other. I mean then drag band. So we're even
just talking about a small portion of what's going on
right now. So much of it is designed to fearmonger,
not only like non LGBTQ plus people, but to put
us in a state of fear.
Speaker 2 (31:26):
And yeah, I mean that not just us, even allies.
And so you know, I think that there's kind.
Speaker 1 (31:32):
Of the doctors that the providers, therapists. I mean, I
think that's for me, that's the piece with Arkansas and
most of the states is like to refer therapy is
gender firming care and you can't even do that.
Speaker 2 (31:45):
Yeah, yeah, And that's what really I think is at
the heart of this. I know there's like everyone's always
kind of said, the cruelty is the point. I'm like, yes,
cruelty is the point, but fear is the means. And
so they really weaponize fear to target the community. And
I think a lot of people, and I know everyone
has their very strong opinions as so, and from the left,
(32:07):
I understand the issues with rainbow and pink washing and
like corporate capitalism of pride and co opting all that,
totally sympathetic, but I think that even if it is
like in a kind of self interested way to provide
a more profit and kind of monetize our community. At
(32:28):
the same time, they also do provide a bit of
a backstop towards some of these bills. A lot of
the biggest groups that are working behind the scenes to
stop some of these bills in previous years had been
business groups saying, don't pass these bills. It's going to
hurt business, it's anti business. And what DeSantis did with
Disney last year, it's a warning shot. If DeSantis can
(32:50):
go after the biggest employer and biggest company in the
entire state of Florida that owns basically all of central
Florida and basically target them in this way, what do
you think the smaller businesses in Florida are going to do?
They're going to just stay quiet, pipe down. And that
laid the groundwork for the most radical, far right extremist
legislator cycle in Florida in history, because the business groups
(33:15):
that would ordinarily oppose this legislation just didn't say anything
because they were worried that they would lose tax breaks,
they'd be targeted by the governor directly, and that state
of fear, like that's an element of fascism. But that's
what they do. Like whether it's forums targeting trans people
online or governor's targeting trans people in an entire state.
(33:36):
Fear is how they achieve it. They isolate the community
from everyone else. They deprive us of allies. They raise
the cost right, so allies that are working in the
school systems or universities now they're stripping ten year at universities.
Speaker 1 (33:49):
Also afraid too, because I don't like to restate these
propagandistic talking points, but the propaganda in the right wing
media ecosystem that like immediately anything LGBTQ plus equals grooming
equals pedophilia. What happened with Target, I think, is a
(34:12):
really good example of a company that's been in allyship,
at least in their corporate pinkwash, you know, in the
ways in which corporations do ELI ship. And I've done these,
I've done these corporate partnerships, and I actually do think
it's good. We know what it is. But I remember
in twenty nineteen it was the fiftieth anniversary of Stonewall,
(34:33):
and I was walking around Manhattan seeing queer and trans
people in every store window and it was beautiful. I know,
I understand the profit motive. It was utterly and completely beautiful.
But because they've been able to capture the narrative, so
much of this has been about how they've been able
to successfully in the media to humanize trans people, equate
(34:57):
us to these things that I don't like to say
and repeat. That's been a huge part of the narrative too. Right,
So corporations are not only being attacked in ways in
which they do their businesses. We're going to revoke your
liquor license, blah blah blah, it's the public narrative and
perception of how they're being painted as well. So it's
(35:18):
like that conversation needs to just really be interrupted. So
it's like the fight needs to be happening on so
many different levels.
Speaker 2 (35:26):
Right.
Speaker 1 (35:26):
What amazes me when I think about like Alliance Defending
Freedom and I just know it's not just them, but
they're at the heart of so much of this. They
craft the legislation and give to state legislatures. Right, they
bring these cases to the Supreme Court. They're not just
doing it in the United States, but they're doing it globally,
and they're well funded, well organized, and relentless, and they're
(35:47):
working not just against LGBTQ rights, they're working against like
reproductive rights. So it becomes like, like where is the funding,
where is the organization, where is the urgency quote unquote left?
Speaker 2 (36:02):
Yeah, I mean it is incredibly frustrating seeing this. You know,
how we are probably the best funded we've ever been
in terms of having nonprofits out there, But you know,
I'm very cynical and nonprofits as any kind of pathway
towards liberation, particularly because of the incentive structures they are
oftentimes infighting over ridiculous things and grant funding, and the
(36:23):
also the incentives around grants and donations oftentimes miss aligned
with actual movement priorities and what will actually do more
for the community. Like, we are the best funded that
we've ever been, but at the same time, I don't
think I've ever seen a greater mismatch in what the
funding is being spent on versus what is like on
(36:48):
I think like at this point, you know, i HRC
is probably my biggest like punching bag, because I think
they're kind of emblematic oftentimes of kind of the excess
of constantly doing what favors wealthier white gaze, you know,
focusing on marriage because we saw the full scale mobilization
last year with the codification of a Burger fell right,
like full court press, social media, messaging everywhere. They had
(37:12):
celebrities speaking out, they had all the senators here and there,
and I was like, wow, so that's what you're capable of.
And then three months later when all these bills are
introduced like nothing galas, like tons and tons of galas.
Speaker 1 (37:25):
I gagged over that. I gagged over how. I'm like,
we were able to get past the filibuster in the
Senate for marriage equality. It was bipartisan, so I'm like, okay, like,
how did that happen. We can't get an equality Act,
we can't get reproductive bytes caught it by, we can't
get a pro act. I mean, there's so many things
we can't get. We can't get a minimum wage raise,
(37:47):
but we got marriage equality through. And this is when
it becomes problematic when people are like, well, gay folks,
you know, they can get what they want, you know,
when like there's all these other bills that are like
trying to erase our existence.
Speaker 2 (37:59):
Yeah, girl, like what yeah, exactly, Yeah. I think it's
it's partially you know, the funding the institutional backing around it.
The people who are there right, like even Republicans have
like gay children, and in the Supreme Court kind of
had cided already one way on this years ago. So
I think it's it seemed like it was easier to
(38:19):
pass that way. But I think infrastructurally, all these orgs
had been set up for basically two decades to end
at marriage equality, and we saw orgs kind of pack up,
like uh, it was an Empire state pride agenda that
just like completely shuddered in New York after marriage equality,
and they're like, well, that's it, and I was like,
what you know? And that was like after two decades
(38:40):
of telling trans people like, oh, don't worry, we'll get
to you once we get marriage equality. And then like
the funding you know, came down and I think, to
be a little bit fair, HRC, like it's not just them, right,
And I think part of it is they didn't see
this backlash coming. And I when I was working at TILDEF,
you know, I.
Speaker 1 (38:56):
Till DEV is the transgendr Legal Defense and Education Fund
for those Yeah, I don't know.
Speaker 2 (39:00):
I had someone there who I worked with, you know,
in twenty twenty one, I was like, look, this is
going to probably be one of the worst years for
anti trans and like I was, that's quaint now because
given how bad it's gotten since then. But I was like,
it's going to be one of the worst years in
trans legislation. And they're like, oh, isn't it bad every year?
And I was just like what, Like it just ignored
like what was happening. And I was monitoring a lot
(39:21):
of this stuff online and I was like, look, the
energy is building there, like this is going to break,
like we need to put the systems. And I think,
you know, it's partially the disruption from COVID. MCTE obviously
like had a bit of an implosion in twenty nineteen,
and so a lot of like the bigger orgs like
were really hampered. I think GLAD didn't really anticipate because
they didn't see this happening, and all of those things
(39:44):
kind of conspired together to kind of weaken the movement
in a way that we weren't anticipating. And I think also, again,
these are really big organizations that cannot turn on a dime.
They cannot just immediately pivot to new initiatives. And what
I've been trying to tell people, I'm like, this isn't
twenty fifteen anymore. You can't just go run to write
(40:05):
ed in the New York Times and expect that to
change opinion. You have to meet people where they're at,
and they're online.
Speaker 1 (40:11):
And the incentive structure online the internal data that Facebook
found themselves that online the air people. Facebook found that
when people are fighting each other and when they're conspiracy theories,
people stay longer on those sites. And so there is
an algorithmic profit incentive to have us at each other's
(40:33):
throats and to spread misinformation and propaganda. We should be
aware of that, just as consumers of social media and
how we are online. But then how do we infiltrate
How do we infiltrate online spaces? That really is the
work I mean, and I've done a lot of work
with GLAD over the years, But like media now is
social media, it's the Internet, and like yeah, yeah, okay,
(40:58):
it's that time again. We'll be right back, all right,
let's get back to it. So then, in terms of
solutions for me, it feels like there's the messaging piece,
there's the legislative piece, and the attacks tax there, and
(41:19):
then there's the impact on community and getting people resources
and getting people access. So there's like three different There's
probably more, but there are three big things around this
moment around anti trans legislation, right that like we have
to change the narrative that we have to fight the
bills where we can. And then I think the biggest
piece is like the impact on community and how we
(41:43):
get people resources, and so much of those resources are
mental health as well as like needing to flee if
they need to flee. But then I loved I saw
you on Leftist Mafia, the conversation that you were having
that I've had with people here in New York because I,
you know, I used to get my health care calend
Lord Community Health Center. They have a two year waiting
(42:03):
list because people are fleeing to New York. So places
that do provide gender firming healthcare on a sliding scale
that count, like calend Lor, like Aperture here in New York.
They are overrun because there's so many people who have
left other states. So there's an impact community impact on
people fleeing to you know, sanctuary cities or states that
(42:24):
those places then become overrun and there's not enough health
care providers. So is it about us getting more health
care providers in places like New York, Los Angeles, San Francisco,
Like what, like we've got to serve our community. I
don't know. I don't even have much hope around that.
The legislator, around politicians, the media feels hopeless. But I
(42:44):
do know that we know how to take care of
each other as in community, that we have found ways
to do that through the years. And for me, that
like that feels like where the energy needs to be.
But what do you think?
Speaker 2 (42:57):
Yeah, no, absolutely, I think mutual A when you brought
up campaign for some equality, and I think one of
the things that they're doing that's innovative is as a
pass through for mutual aid essentially to fund local orcs
that don't have the same kind of fundraising capacity. I
mean we've seen it every time, right, Like these things
happen everyone don't say a sale you And like, meanwhile,
a lot of the works that are doing the work
(43:18):
of actually keeping people housed, like getting them to appointments,
doing all of that work, often doing it on a
volunteer basis or for very little money. And you know,
those are the people that need the funding the most,
and they're the ones that are least likely to get it.
So Campaigners Out of Quality is working to do that.
They're also trying to do more emergency grants directly to
help people move, and that's something that nonprofits have never
(43:40):
been receptive to because it's just is not aligned with
the kinds of structures and the way that they're made
and governed and regulated to be able to do that.
But that's what we're going to really need to be
able to do this. When we look at abortion, abortion
funds have been the biggest critical lifeline to maintaining access
(44:00):
to abortion in this country despite it being banned in
so many states, and we need to basically emulate that
where you have like gender farming care funds that help
people you know, relocate out of state or able to
get their care or go to appointments out of state
so that they can get care if it's banned, or
you know, especially even for adults now that we're starting
to see targeted attacks on adult care. And then, you know,
(44:22):
I think one of the other aspects, as you're mentioning,
is we need our allies in blue states and stays
that want to protect trans rights not just to pass
you know, these kind of sanctuary laws which they're passing,
which are are great. I'm not going to downplay that,
But what we need as well are actual resources, Right,
(44:42):
we need more funding, and that's where the rubber meets
the road, and that's where there's actual work to be done.
We need states that are passing these safe harbor provisions
to additionally say, you know, we're going to fund community
centers and we're going to fund and expand care. Because
you know, I'm here in Boston and it has taken
me six months to see my primary care provider. It
(45:04):
is absolutely having an impact. And all of these issues
post COVID as well, and so at the same time
that there's all this increased demand, there's all these forces
that are kind of restricting care and access to care
just because there aren't enough providers and there's not enough
you know, the medical system is on the verge of
collapse here in the United States after COVID, and so
(45:25):
there's all of these issues, and like you said, it's
not going to stay limited, right, We're going to have
trans people leaving the South and the Midwest coming to
these states, and even if they don't leave, they may
be traveling round trip spirit with just them for an appointment, right, Like,
that's what may end up happening. And so as a
result of that, we have to be prepared to handle
that influx. And it's happening most acutely right now with
(45:47):
pediatric care for trans youth. But it's also affecting trans
adults as more and more trans adults leave those states.
And so just because you think you might be safe
in a blue state, now you're not. This will affect you,
and this will impact you, and you know, God forbid
a Republican come in twenty twenty four. They're going to
push this policy nationally.
Speaker 1 (46:06):
Which is terrifying, horrifying, And I think for people who
hear that and think, oh, that's not going to happen,
we can't imagine that we're in a post Dobbs United States.
Speaker 2 (46:17):
There's a fill in Congress already introduced in the House
that would effectively ban most gender affirming care coverage. It
wouldn't ban it out right, but basically make it impossible
to get it covered by insurance at all.
Speaker 1 (46:25):
Was that Marjorie Taylor Green's bill? Yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah.
Speaker 2 (46:31):
And just for people's peace of mind, that's it's not
likely to pass.
Speaker 1 (46:34):
But no, it's not likely to pass. Now. Oh god,
there's so maybe I didn't hear you say this, but
another expert in this said, looking ahead, the bills that
like didn't pass this year that seem crazy and extreme,
are going to seem less crazy and extreme next year
and probably will be passed. So it's getting worse. So
I do think the one thing that corporations can do,
(46:56):
and since corporations run the country is like is employees
can fight back. But I think was good at Disney
is that the employees were like, no, this is not acceptable.
And so whenever I do my corporate talks, I've done
my you know, diversity inclusion things or corporations, and I
always like to encourage employees or corporations to push back
and like to find out what politicians the corporations are
(47:18):
giving money to, and if they don't align with these
alleged values of diversity inclusion, then challenge that as much
as you can collectively within those corporations. I know corporations
are going to save us, but like, let's see what
we can do since they're you know, running the country anyway, Yeah.
Speaker 2 (47:40):
Anyway, sorry, just to fix side.
Speaker 1 (47:43):
This is a conversation that could go on for hours
and hours, but to be continued. Yeah, I like to
end the podcast with the question what else is true?
And this is taken from my trauma resilience therapy and
that thing that we started the podcast with the idea
of both. And even when things seem catastrophic and devastating,
and they are in the world right now, for LGBTQ
(48:06):
plus folks, something else is true. Something else exists in
the world that can get us through, that can bring
us joy, that can create resilience in our nervous systems,
that can permeate collectively. So for you today, Alexandra, what
else is true?
Speaker 2 (48:23):
Else is true?
Speaker 1 (48:28):
Yeah?
Speaker 2 (48:28):
I think for me, it's just that they can never
take our joy like they can try as they might.
They can make it more difficult. They can do and
say and pass all these bills. But at the end
of the day, when I was you know, I was
in Fire Island and I was in New York City
over the weekend during Pride, and despite all of this
(48:52):
terrible things that have gone on, I just still see
a beautiful community coming together and just seeing that we
still have each other and we still have so much
love for each other and support, and we are all
going to have each other's backs, and so you know,
I think this is a temporary operation. I think long term,
(49:12):
like we are, we're still going to win. We may
have a few stepbacks and it may take years to
recover from, but I think Glove will win in the end.
And I think our community has gone through much much
worse and we've come out stronger on the other end.
Speaker 1 (49:25):
Absolutely, without a test there is no testimony, and we
are being tested right now, and our testimony will be
incredibly powerful when we overcome. Thank you so much, Alejandra.
I hope I really want you to to leave this
conversation not feeling, you know, devastated and traumatized like and
for everybody out there listening, I want them to leave
(49:48):
with more information, but also like, yes, all of this
is happening, but you may maybe even know it was
happening before this conversation, and so you were like doing whatever.
So now you have the information, We're going to take
what action we can take today and on a daily
basis to combat this, to be there for each other,
to do what we can, and then we're going to
(50:10):
go and find our joy and we're going to go
and look into the eyes of the people we love,
and if we don't have those people, you know, do
something that we love that brings us joy. So yes,
all of this is horrific, and other things are true
as well. What is it legislati trolling? Trolling? What it
was the phrase legislation roll legislation? We got to laugh
(50:32):
at this stuff. Find those places in those bases to laugh.
Congrats on your engagement and thank you so much for
spending this time with me today. Thank you for all
the vital work that you do. Thanks so much, Alejandra.
Thanks well, that was intense, wasn't it, Oh, Alejandra Carabio.
(50:55):
I am so grateful to people like Alexandra who are
doing the work every single day and getting us information
tracking all of this. I don't want you to leave
this podcast depressed and feeling hopeless. I want you to
come away with things that you can do and something
that you can take away to regulate your nervous system
(51:18):
as well, so that you don't feel traumatized and scared
and hopeless around all this. So check out this campaign
forseeth An Equality. If you can't donate, elevate their mission
and share the link. And maybe for people who can donate,
they can donate. I also suggest the Transstice funding project,
and yeah, have our structural critique, have our awareness, and
(51:42):
then go and love on each other and don't let
any of this take away your joy to be alive
and to hopefully be yourself. All of this, it's impossible
to not have this messaging like seep in. If you
are out there struggling with your identity, with like loving
(52:02):
yourself as who you are, with trying to make the
decision to transition, just know that who you are is valid,
that the person that you know you are inside needs
to live out loud like. As hard as my journey
has been, I would not replace it for anything in
(52:27):
the world because choosing to live authentically, choosing to tell
the truth to myself about myself and then take action,
that's what transition was for me. The second I told
the truth and I took action around that truth, my
life changed for the better. So if you're out there
(52:48):
struggling in this world, in this environment and it's hard,
know that the truth shall set you free. The truth
shall set you free. Thank you so much for listening
to the Laverne Cox Show. Please rate review subscribe and
(53:10):
share with everyone you know. You can find me on Instagram,
Twitter and TikTok at Laverne Cox and on Facebook at
Laverne Cox Breo. Until next time, stay the love. The
Laverne Cox Show is a production of Shondaland Audio in
partnership with iHeartRadio. For more podcasts from Shondaland Audio, visit
(53:32):
the iHeartRadio app, Apple podcast, or wherever you listen to
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