March 18, 2021 • 45 mins
There are not enough words to describe Ts Madison. Bold. Brash. Outrageous. Loud. Colorful. Savvy. But first and foremost Entrepreneur. Ts is an openly transgender entertainer who learned young how to hustle and make that coin. She learned business the hard way as a sex worker, but her head for business, marketing and promotion has led her to mainstream television. She is the first openly transgender person to have her own reality TV show. You can watch “The Ts Madison Experience” on WE TV. She and Laverne have SO much to talk about. //
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Episode Transcript
Available transcripts are automatically generated. Complete accuracy is not guaranteed.
Speaker 1 (00:02):
Welcome to the Laverne Cox Show, a production of Shonda
Land Audio in partnership with My Heart Radio. Honey, is
it all? Is it all? Honey? Is this miss recording?
What's up? YouTube? Land, Twitter and Instagram, last, Snapchat, Crown,
the Scruff, b GC Jack, Facebook, Periscope, and less but
(00:22):
not least, every single one of my bitches Chorus, San
Mingo and the lands all across the land. This is
your grol T. S. Madison and I'm coming to you loud,
live and always unfailor in color from the marvelous Chateau.
I feel like my day is a complain if I
have not heard you say that. Hello everyone, and welcome
(00:47):
to the Laverne Cox Show. There's something about a really
good catchphrase, and today's guest has so many, so many
of them. I am so ex ight it. I'm going
to be speaking with T. S. Madison, a woman who
has inspired me, who has cracked me up for years,
and I just think it's a genius of personal branding
(01:11):
and just a superstar. T. S. Madison is an openly
transgender entertainer, social media personality, entrepreneur, and l g B
t Q plus activist. Tis Madison has worked her ass
off for decades to create her own platform. She became
a YouTube sensation as the co host of The Queen's
Supreme Court, and now it's the star of the new
(01:33):
we TV show, The T. S. Madison Experience. Please enjoy
my conversation with T. S. Madison. Hello, T. S. Madison,
and welcome to the podcast. How are you feeling today? Girl?
Over Cox Honey, the inventor of all the things. I
am sitting here with you. Girl. It is time. It
(01:53):
is so overdue. It's so overdue. We should let the
people know. Recording this on March fifth, the day after
the premiere of The T. S. Madison Experience on we TV.
And how do you feel about the first episode? How
do you feel? This is so the long time coming?
But today I'm really like a producer Laverne, you know
(02:15):
the first time when you when you produce your show,
like you like, what are the numbers and what are
they saying? And what's the feedback? And how do the
people like it? God? I still I'm doing all this pressed.
It's it's a lot. You know. I don't know how
you've done it for so many years, because we've all
watched the Laverne Cox experience. I can't tell you, Maddie,
(02:38):
I've been perpetually exhausted for like eight years. But I'm saying, no,
the more things that I can have a little bit
more time to myself. You have to find your time
to recharge. You have to find your time to like
right now, isn't that time right the wave now? No,
this is definitely not not the time. And I'm gonna
do the best that i can to my energy high.
(03:01):
And I want to say this though, I want to
say thank you for unscrewing the door and leaving it open.
And one thing that Funky Dyneva says all the time
is that when we occupied spaces as LBGT plus people,
(03:23):
we can't go in there and up the thing. How
do you have to make sure that you do it
and leave the door open for other people to come
behind you? And and and we have to go in
there with grace and dignity and all of this stuff.
And I'm gonna share a little bit. Mm hmm, girl,
Why y'all got the glad police on me? I didn't
(03:48):
have the Glad police is on you? Girl? What what's
going on with the team? No, they're good. No, they're
really good. Like I know, I'm just I'm I'm making
a joke out of it. It's it's really good. Like
they want to pr train you and stuff to make
sure because of our list. Listen, it's no secret hood.
I'm a loud, loving and color and you know, I
don't give a day. I'm sometimes but I have found
out that in this process right now and going on
(04:09):
this place, that the responsibility that that you have as
a as a torchbearer, it can be a little bit overwhelming,
a little bit, you know, because like you you have
to be very careful about stuff that you say, because
you know, you don't just represent yourself anymore. You represent
a plethora of people, not only LBGT plus people, black people,
(04:33):
you know, women and women. Can I tell you that pressure?
I mean for me, it really hit in twenty fourteen,
It really hit Ineen when after the Katie Kirk interview
after Time magazine cover. But I think we're in a
new space now. I don't know when I think we
have to let that go because I think we have
to be responsible for our community. But I think now
(04:55):
with you and there's so many trance people out there
now on TV right so You don't have to represent
the whole community. You can represent you and you. You're hilarious.
You know, I've been watching you for years, girl, so
I and I still watch you, and I can. I
can sit and watch T. S. Madison in the car
ordering going to like McDonald's or whatever, ordering food. I love.
(05:19):
It's such a trance thing that, like, so when you're talking,
you know, you're talking in the car and all of
a sudden you're on the intercom, Hi, can I please
order a you know, two piece with It's just that
never gets old either. There's just so many things they clocked,
that voice hone you, that drives through how do you
may get up? You may get some floor on your hamburger, girl,
(05:40):
your hamburger birl may start and tasting like You're like,
you want this ship taste like the floor? What did
they do to my hamburger? There's just so many nuances
like it is the most entertaining thing ever. T. S.
Madison after Dark is my favorite. Shout out to Litanya girl.
(06:01):
The stories I live for the stories of of the
trade and the clients, and I live for all of it.
We need this, we need and we needed for a
very long time, and I think the beautiful thing is
is that now the world is ready. And I think
when I said this to Billy Porter, we were talking
a few weeks ago, and I said, it's still beautiful
(06:21):
that you're still alive and that you survived because the
world has caught up to you. And Madison, the world
has caught up to you. We don't have to be
in this respectability politics anymore. And that's really why I
wanted to have this conversation today. And for me it
was you. You have to look at it to lavern
my entrance into uh mainstream visibility because you know, I've
(06:44):
been an underground girl for a long time, but my
interest into that was just me selling a product. When
I was doing the little vines, it was just me
selling the product at the time in the business that
I was in. We should clarify for the audience that
I don't think you'll mind me saying it. Maddie has
a history and sex work and she um started her
own porn business and turned it out, and like you were,
(07:06):
you were peaking at that time too, like Boom, and
they were tearing me up like all honey, you are
trash and la Vernes queen and your this and the other,
and I'm like, I'm not trying to be like like
we're all different, Like why can't I not celebrate my
sister who's paving the way for something I may occupied
(07:28):
this space. I don't know, why would y'all do that?
And the gaggy is Laverne loves the t S. The
t S loves Laverne, and she knows that we are
polar opposites, but we are the same. So we got
that's the piece. It's like when I I was watching
the show last night, I was like, yes, Mattie and
I on the service. To me, it seemed completely different.
(07:50):
But I'm from Alabama, I have a religious mother, I
grew up in the church. I am a block transplant.
There's so many things that we have in common. It's
very different and path and like, but for the grace
of God, I may have been having to do what
you were doing, you know, on the stroll in Miami
and in Atlanta. But it's all good. It's all good.
And what I love about your history and sex work
(08:13):
is that you're open and honest about it. You tell
the truth about It's like their stories or legendary and
I'm so happy that you survived it. But then I
think that it's so important that you you You were like,
I need to be the boss. I need to be
the one producing these videos. I need to be the
one distributing them, because that's where the money is. Can
you talk to us about when when it clicked for
(08:33):
you that you were like, Okay, I need to be
the boss of this and not be, you know, just
used by these other people who are really making the
real money. When I actually sat back and I watched
the way that can I be candid leavern girl? I
want you to I want you here to be fully
you and do you? Yes, girl, relax and do you
(08:58):
She gave me permission. Okay, listen, when I saw all
those white companies pimping out, and I do feel I
don't want to say pimping out heavy because you know,
we go in knowing that we need to start somewhere,
But I'm saying pimping out, Like, girl, we work for
these people, like our black skin is so expensive. It
(09:20):
is expensive. Our black skin is powerful, Our black skin
is like the money maker. And you get us and
you give us quarters, pennies, nickels on the dollar, to
bear our nude bodies to perform in in in the video.
You own all the rights, you own this stuff, and
(09:42):
then you market the white girl as better than us.
And this is no shade to my to my white sisters,
but you market the white girl better than us. This
art here, this is God. And you know those are
those girls, and I know you may not. This is
the niche if like this go down, if you want
to go down this dark place over here, you're gonna
(10:03):
like these girls too. But this is what they were
buying over here, these the black girls, and you were
using this money to make the white girls look look sickly, No, ma'am. Yeah.
And that's why I'm so passionate about that, because I
need them to understand that I walked into a white
(10:26):
world and told them, Now, Madison, when you come do
this scene? You know, would you come do this or
would you would you film this? And you now, and
if I do, this is what I want. I want.
I want money on the front end. I want money
on the back end. I want producer rights, I want
(10:48):
distribution rights. I want to be able to have residual
income from this stuff. Should I pass away right now,
my mother can have money, my brothers can have money, whatever.
And it was very much like, how does she know about?
How does she know this? How does she know? You know? Um?
I was introduced to Phil his name is Phil when
(11:10):
he was the owner of Evasive Angles and he evasive.
He's um sin white man. He had never produced trans films.
They said, I have been watching you here in Atlanta,
like your videos outstaill mine and mine are high, high produced.
(11:31):
I said, well, I understand my audience for one, and
for two, what you produced don't look like me. And
what you have to understand is I know you're coming
down here to sail to an urban market. I got
there a lot, baby. I don't work to beat out.
(11:51):
I've been on the chat line. I don't dealt with
the trade. I know what what they like. I know
what men who are attracted to plus size black women
what they're gonna like on a plus size black trans woman.
It felt home to a lot of black men when
I was, you know, making those films, because that's t Shirt,
(12:14):
that's Kinika, that's Tasha. You know that I put to
school with her up to really understanding when I'm hearing,
is that a person who really who learned the market
the hard way, and then it was like, Okay, this
is the market. I'm going to produce a product for
that market. This is it's capitalism. And what I just
love about it is that you have always been a businesswoman.
And when you when I became aware of you was
(12:36):
when your vine went viral new Weave twenty two inches. Yeah,
and literally a girlfriend of mine showed that we are
having a group text and a girlfriend and I was like,
I was like, what's going on? And I looked you
up and then there were videos, a bunch of videos,
and I found out who you were. That was that
when that vine went viral? Was that intentional? Was that?
(12:58):
And then how are you able to capitalized on that
vine going viral? Like because I knew you made money? No, Lavernion,
it actually was not intentional. I stumbled across a social
site where I saw people putting up a little six
second videos and I initially started out funny, even hilarious.
(13:19):
It's hilarious, girl. Yes, I remember the first vine that
I ever put up. It was when Beyonce was pregnant,
and I remember me putting this thing on my stomach
and me sitting down and and like reenacting when she
sat now on a talk show she was doing. And
I just there was one vine that I put up, girl,
(13:43):
it ain't really getting no traction. It was a little people,
you know, laughing and joking at it. But I started
scrolling through vine and I said, wait a minute, they
have after dark. What is this? So I clicked the
hashtag and I'm looking at the hashtag. I was like, wait,
are they nude on't here? Okay, I'm typing away, researching
(14:06):
like how how many clicks does this kid? And how
does this is this marketable? Oh? Here we go. Let
me promote my website. So that's all it was for me.
So I did it. I had no idea what was
gonna happen. And now way were now just yes, boom,
just boom it just Laverty was boom huge. And so
(14:30):
some boys from New Orleans and some I don't want
to call them trade, but honey, they got those tendencies.
Some boys from New Orleans stumbled across it and reposted
it and and typed in the caption this right here,
how does this woman have a dick? How's that for
(15:04):
a little true after tiny break, We've got more for you.
We are back picking up where we left. That's what
(15:24):
it was. How does this woman have a day? And
I promise you it was them reposting that. Let me
title it right, How does this fat woman have a dick?
Oh my god, it was insane. It was like crazy.
(15:45):
I woke up the next morning and it was like,
all this stuff is everywhere, like everywhere. So the boy
who reposted it, he had came up with all of
these I think that they may translate to transphobic slurs,
but he came up with this. He called me a sugar.
Oh my god, I heard all of them sugar. And
(16:08):
so he went on this tirade like wearing me out.
But the more he wore me out, the more that
it started to spread. So I started doing little videos
to him, like, you know, taunting him. And the more
I taunted him with the videos, the more they were
going about because me naked and all this stuff or
whatever the girl, And then more people were going to
your side, the side yes, And then I started my
(16:30):
site increase. And then I'm gonna tell you what really
made me start marketing the moment that they took one
of the little pieces and put it on Tosh point. Oh,
I remember it being my birthday, October twenty second, two
thousand and fourteen. I was I was in the bed
sleeping and ten o'clock Tosh came on and it said,
(16:51):
all right, everybody, let us introduce you to your dick
of the week. So I'm seeing him and I'm like,
wait a minute, and it's me at The audience went
crazy and it's like after that girl, I said, man,
you gotta make you some T shirts. Well with the
T shirts, what did the T shirts saying? She got
a dick? Oh my god, Yes, she got up dick.
(17:18):
And it was all because I was arguing with this
this boy. He was like, I don't know what you are?
What are you? Are you a woman? Oh my god?
And I really think this was a big, big introduction
to people might have been bad, could have been bad
to people who had never seen a trance person, who
(17:40):
if I was just doing regular vice, he possibly would
have thought that, you know, I was just uh, this
black woman. But what drove him insane was him seeing it.
And it's just like so confused by I've been confused
because he was a little If he's spending that much energy,
he was probably a little turned on excited girl. That's why.
That's why I said a trade tendencies. Um. If I
(18:02):
ever get an opportunity to run into him anywhere, he
probably won't talk to me. What I would say, you know,
I want to thank you. You're you're messy and you're confused,
and you know it caused me to be in the
place that i'm and now he helped that, like this
boy was on a rampage doing these videos about me.
(18:24):
What I will say to you, though, Maddie, is that
not everybody, not every transperson, could take that opportunity and
then let it lead to the next thing in terms
of monetary gain, in terms of raising your profile. And
so I would love for people out there listening is
to be like, Okay, what can I do? How can I,
like Maddie, take a moment and really make it into something.
(18:46):
It's an entrepreneur and so that in to better my life. Well,
I think it's because the hustle in me Laverne. I
think it was because I did work the street and
stuff like that. Whatever I needed to do to make
work for me to survive. You know, you have to
turn lemons into lemonade, you know, And it's like nothing
(19:06):
is guaranteed. The streets are guaranteed, but the tricks, they're
not guaranteed. You know, none of this stuff is guaranteed.
So you've gotta be trying to figure out how am
I gonna turn the next dollar without killing anybody, without
robbing anybody, Because listen, my mother taught me, whatever you
put out, you will receive back. And I've always been
(19:27):
afraid to do anything malicious to a person, even when
I'm angry and I want to get back, I always
think and hear her saying, boo, you know, God gonna
give you what you give others, you know, so it
always keeps me away from doing anything malicious. But girl, anytime,
any time anything malicious comes to me, I'm gonna monetize
(19:51):
off of the girl. So if a person is out
there reading me for fil I'm gonna make a T shirt,
I'm gonna make a coffee mug, I'm gonna some eyelashes,
I'm gonna make a pencil. That's you know. I'm gonna
do this stuff because you gotta turn all your pain
into profit. Years ago, you had magnets that step your
pussy up. Magnets the check less literally about four or
(20:14):
five to support you. But then I also gave them
to get to the girl my girlfriends. What was it?
Check list? Step your what is it? Own? A business? What? What? What?
What was it? Let me tell you, Liver, that was
a vine. That was a vine from me reading that boy.
Oh yes, yes, there there it is. I didn't get hadn't.
(20:39):
I didn't know the origin story I was reading. I
was reading him. I was like, how do you talk
about me every day? Can't you find something else to do?
Be yourself? Bid, step your pussy up, honey, get a
job on the business and so you know that day
I had their belong here on I was over rid. Girl.
(21:00):
Can I tell you your personal brand? And the branding
and the catchphrases are legendary. I mean, is it on? Can? Well?
Is it on? Started? I will tell you how that started. Girl.
Are you're going to holler? So just get rid of holler?
And you're gonna say, girl, do you take everything that
you do and make money? Yes? I was trying to
(21:23):
figure out on YouTube because you know, people were they
were making them videos and about me on YouTube. I
had my girlfriend, Diamond Styles. I don't know if you
know Diamond Styles. I loved I love Diamond Styles and
she was doing these interviews with with trans people, and
trans Girl had made a video. Well she interviewed her
(21:44):
and she said something about me, and I was like,
I'm going to cuss this bitch out, you know, And
so I was like, how do you? How do you
do this? I got my computer and I started and
I didn't know if it was. Of course, I was
like I was, I said, is it on? Is it on? Honey?
Is this bitch recording? Like? Is the aggression? I was
(22:07):
so eager to try to get the thing on so
I could cuss off. So know it yourself. Man, when
Maddie wants to cut somebody out, this is an opportunity
for a new catchphase and a new monetary moment. Is
it on? Is it on? It this bitch recording? Hello? YouTube? Snapchat?
(22:29):
But it could give us the honey? Is this misrecording?
I was like, honey, is it on? Is it on? Honey?
Is this misrecording? What's up? YouTube? Lay and Twitter and Instagram, land, snapchat, ground,
the scruff b g C Jack, Facebook, Periscope and less
but not least, if a single one of my bitch
isn't Chorison Mingo and the lands all across the land.
(22:50):
This is your girl, T s Madison. I'm coming to
you loud live and always unfailor in color from the
marvelous Chateau Girls. I ever gets old, Maddie, Can I
tell you? I've been watching your videos for years, You've
been saying there for you, it never gets old. I
feel like my day is a complete if I have
not heard you say that it gets And then the loud,
(23:11):
live and in color section, I just I live, I
live for you. The new show, and we should probably
talk a little bit about your show, but I love
that it's still you. That they didn't because I was like, oh,
we don't need to sanitize Maddie. We just need to
let Maddie just be Maddie because she's enough. And I
saw the show and it's you. I felt the team
I UM and miss Mary. It's just obviously we've gotten
(23:34):
to know miss Mary through your own YouTube and Facebook
um stuff. But miss Mary was just so transcendent last night.
She reminds me a little bit of my mother a
little bit. She was just so it was so beautiful.
I cried, I cried, I cried, I laughed. It was
so good. It was really really good. It was like
it was I was thinking, this is this dysfunctional family
(23:56):
that like most of us have, that is that you
read each other and you might fight, but it's all
in love and you feel the love. And I think
that's why people love you, because we feel your heart
and we felt it in the show, and that just
it just it warms my heart. I honestly told the network,
I was like, listen, if you police me too hard
(24:18):
to show will flop. I know when and where to
turn up. I ain't that crazy, but but you gotta
let me do me, you know. And it's World of
Wonder that's producing the show. And I felt very comfortable
with World of Wonder producer show. You've been working with
the World of Wonder for years. You did a series
(24:38):
in the car with them, let me pick you Up,
Let me pick you Up. And it was important for
me to explain to them, listen, I'm coming to you
with this project that I have right now. I needed
to be me. I don't need to work for you guys,
I need us to work together. And you know that's
how I became executive producer of it. And when I
watched it last night, I was like, Wow, I felt
(25:00):
that these people have my back and I felt you know,
reality t V can be messy, Laverne. You know we've
been in this, but I felt that that was not
the angle that they wanted to go. They don't want
to go messy like they have other shows that are messy.
It's a new day. It's a new day. And I
also understand that you thought to have black people on
your crew and l g B t Q people on
(25:22):
your crew. And it makes a difference who's making the show.
It makes a difference who is the director, who's the showrunner,
who's writing, if there's writing, who's editing. All those things
make a difference in terms of how we're represented. And
it felt like you. It felt like you, and it
felt authentic. It is it is me, Laverne, it is
it's me. It's my family, you know, my mother. Listen,
(25:42):
I'm not going to try to clean up her words.
If she want to say strue, then let us say
damn strue streaming, which is she doesn't. If she wanta
ain't Fitch annual, fitch geral, then that's what it is. Oh,
she's so adorable. She's so adorable, and it's just so beautiful.
And I think to the love, the unconditional love that
(26:05):
Miss Mary has for you have always made for years
my brother and I. My brother loves you as well,
and we've talked about it for years. Just the relationship
that you guys have that is so it's just real.
And I think what people also need to know is
that there's a lot of mis Mary's out there. My
mother never ever growing up with hard and I've talked
to her about it. I've talked publicly growing up it's hard.
But once I moved away and I was in New
(26:27):
York and I started at my transition, she never said
I don't want to see you. She never said I'm
going to disown you. She that that was never. She
was concerned about my health and well being. She didn't understand,
of course, but she never said I'm going to disown
you and I don't want to be in your life.
And I know that happens to a lot of people,
but there are a lot of black mothers out there
who have loved their LGBTQ children. There are so many
(26:50):
out there who who are have and are loving their children.
Can I be honest with you? I want to be
honest with you, Laverne, please for me, which I think
we're gonna do into it more in the season. You'll see,
because I learned a lot about myself filming this this show.
I I listened to her during the filming of this listen,
and it wasn't the fact that she was in the
(27:13):
church and and and save and stuff like that. It
was the fact that I heard everything around like everybody
else that the've be in the church, me going to church,
and you know, gay is going to hell, and don't
be like this. You know what they do in the
South all that, and and if you become one of them, yes,
if you're an old girl. The bill they passed, it's awful,
(27:34):
I know. And they say if you turn out to
be there, you're definitely gonna bust hell wide open. So
you hear this stuff, and then you you hear your
mother love God so much, and you're like, oh my God,
like in my heart, like I don't want to embarrass
my family. So you leave, Yeah, you leave, you you leave,
and it's so important that you you go to find yourself. However,
(27:55):
when I hear her talk, now I understand it at
an older age. Now I hear to talk, and she says,
you didn't give me a chance to accept you. You
didn't give me a chance to grow with you. You
didn't give me a chance. And I was like, because
I heard everything around and this is why we helped
to make sure that the conversation that we're having around
young people aren't homophobic and aren't transphobic, because you don't know,
(28:19):
this is a straight world. We live in, this straight world.
There were so many homophobic There were so many homophobic
things I heard from my mother's lips when I was
growing up, a churchgoing woman, Christian woman I heard, and
so of course I thought that there was not going
to be a space for me to be myself. And
like it was, it was really clear. And I was
a bully kid who everyone was calling the effort in
(28:41):
the city and all these things. Yeah, me too, and
and I was taking to therapy in third grade, you know,
to like fix me and make me more masculine, so
all those things. So of course I didn't think that
she would accept me. So I needed new I needed
to get out of Mobile, Alabama as soon as possible
so I could be myself. And that's what I did.
You had to leave to find yourself. But what we
(29:02):
left at home were parents that we didn't give the
opportunity to do that. And I think that every time
my mother was sitting here watching the show play that
she was just crying, like this is so real for her.
And I feel like that if I can go back
and do some of this again, I definitely would tell
(29:25):
my younger stelf, you know, break it down for you know,
get mad at her, walk out and come back in
and be like, Mama, this is what's going on. And
maybe I wouldn't have been introduced to this dark world
that I was introduced to. Maybe I wouldn't have been
involved in the streets or or maybe I wouldn't have,
you know, know the street hustle and know the trade
(29:45):
and know all the dark stuff. And maybe a lot
of people wouldn't be subjected to because I'm speaking from me,
a lot of trains people wouldn't be subjected to HIV,
AIDS and diseases. And what I know it's the truth, though,
is that without a test there's no testimony. And your
story is a story of so many other trans women
out there, black trans women who are hustling right now,
(30:07):
who have hustled and they they need to see themselves too,
and they need to see themselves, you know. You know
there's other trans women who are high profile. We have
talked about sex work, but not like you know, the
sex stories the t S. Madison after Dark is legendary.
I live, I live. I love it too. You know
why I love it. It's because we have to. We
(30:28):
have to tell those sex stories because this is what
goes on, this is what happens in our lives, and
some of those sex stories could definitely solve some of
those trans murders that have that have happened. Thank you,
And I love the way you talk about this. You've
talked very candidly in a way that like I've never
fully been able to that when that when men lie
(30:50):
and say they don't and they didn't know often when
trans every time, almost every time a trans woman is murdered,
it's like, well you should tell them, And you've always
been for years saying they already know. They just don't
want you to know. And people want to be in
denial that men are tracted to us and are having
sex with us and doing all the things with us.
People want to be in denial. You know, I'm thinking
(31:11):
about like men, how a lot of men who date
us state trans women don't come forward. And I was, like,
most of the men who are having sex with us,
do you see it's as women and it's not a
big difference for them, And I think the denial and
like the so many women my man would never I'm like, girl, girl, yeah, yeah, good,
and girl listen. So this is why when people like, oh, Masses,
(31:35):
she's all she talks about is sex. I'm like, it's
important that I talk about these things because there's a
there's this fiction going on that men don't love us,
men aren't having sex. Yes they are. They are loving us,
They are having sex with us. They are paying for surgeries.
They are investing in our and the way we look,
They invest in the way we live. Girl, you know
(31:57):
one of my lives love iron. I've been in the
marvel Let's chateau all these years, Bitch, I worked for nobody,
somebody husband paying for me, you know, and this in
the home ownership too. I just love I mean, I
love it. I love that you. I think I remember
one video you talked about how you had to like
work extra for you. You You didn't put any money down
(32:17):
for the mortgage and so you have to work extra
for it. And can you talk about the home ownership
and how it's so important for you to own your
own home or it's extremely important for me and for
for me to push that for home ownership or ownership
of a wheen this, how's this big? How's bigger than
this of an apartment or whatever? Because we are always
(32:39):
deemed homeless and we do suffer, you know, from from
homelessness in our community. However, when you when you have
the opportunity to bitch, do everything that the straight people
can do. Girl, go out there and buy you a house.
When you got the money, if you're gonna sell your
coachinge go out there to save you up a love
(33:00):
money and buy you a house. So that, honey, when
that Coucci is old and retired, girl, you can get
an equity loan on your house, honey, and start your
business or something. Do something. It is important because this
is this is equity. We need to be a part
of wealth, Laverne and love that vision. And it's like
and so there and for the people who are doing
their only fans right now are doing whatever, It's like,
(33:22):
what are you saving and what are you building with that.
I gotta take a teensy break here, but I'll be fast.
All right, let's get back to it. I mean, some
people do sex work for a very long time, and
then sometimes you're less marketable as you get older. And
(33:45):
so what's the plans, sister? Some people that do anything
and they're less marketable when they're older. What's the guy's
name that's that's getting evicted from his mansion? I forget.
He's the fashion guy Andre Andre Talent. Yes, Andre, that
broke my hard. I love Andre so much. I love
him too, But girl, what were you doing with your coin?
What are you doing with this stuff? Like? You are
(34:06):
a gay man? Who is you? Who is occupying spaces
that a lot of us want to want to break
into the fashion world? What are you doing with your coin?
Forty years? I just I'm obsessed with Andre. So I
read Andre's book, Um the chefon Trenches, and Andre got
by on the kindness of Carl Logerfelm, the kindness of
(34:27):
the folks. I forget who owns the house and that
he lives in. He got by on the kindness of
so many people for so long that maybe he wasn't
even making money. But he was just being gifted Chanelle
and gifted this because he was edited large for vote.
But a girl, if you it's a hustle. So if
you're hustling when you look at it, if if somebody's
(34:47):
donating your house and they're donating you cars, they're donating
you bags, and I'm not mad at him at all,
but bitch, be wise in these situations. Girl, you are
no matter how hi we go in this world. Laverne,
you're transt mass in your trans Andre. You're a gay man.
You know, they put limitations on it, even though they
(35:10):
black black stay black gay man. And I think I
think he thought that those relationships would sustain him, alleged.
I read the story about the house. Apparently he um
was gifted the house, and he was he made improvements
on the house, and he thought it was his and
he believed in the kindness of these white people. I
think he believed in that. And the chickens have come
(35:31):
home to Ruth and so you cannot rely on the
kindness of other folks. You have to make sure you've
got your own. I think that's the lesson, and that
there are probably details that we don't know about the situation,
it's as cautionary. Taylor's like, what I mean, what's the
retirement account, what's the home ownership, what's the hot what's
the plan so that we going forward we're not destitute
(35:52):
because there's so many people. Bell hooks Um, the feminist writer,
when we she owns multiple homes, she was like, I
don't want to be one of those black women writers
who died penning less. And so we have to we
have to plan. Yes, Laverne, listen, the streets have taught
me so much. Howadly the tricks stopped coming, you still
got light bible to pay, girl, you better put some
(36:13):
money somewhere. So, even though he was not in the
sex industry, he was somebody was still gifting him for
his for his goods, and the gifts stopped coming. You
learned this early and and ho in one oh one. Okay,
your dates don't last. Make the money last, yes, And
(36:37):
I think the interest, well, so much of our culture
is like we're pimping ourselves out in one way or
another in consumer capitalism. Right, So it's like there's so
many kind different kinds of sex work. I think I
think you know people who want to demonize sex work.
I think there's just their degrees of it, and so
it's like, what are you going to do to make
(36:58):
the most of whatever situation that you're in, you know,
and hopefully keep your dignity, keep your dignity and be
kind to people, but like, what are you gonna do?
And I love that you keep it real with all
of that and tell the truth about it, because hopefully
they the young girls coming up in boys and non
binary people who are doing there, who are doing their business,
are thinking ahead and are thinking um long term and
(37:20):
thinking how do I like make more money and capitalized,
constantly capitalized and bring and make it, you know, make
it bigger. Yes, then, and it's so important for for
we TV and World of Wonder to give opportunities to
girls like myself because what it does now is it
restructures the narrative that you know, all we do is
sex work. Okay, that was then, That was twenty years ago,
(37:44):
twenty five years ago. Now, the girls that have done
sex work their executive producers, you know, their own networks.
They're they're building opportunities so that the narrative changes. You
no longer have to be a sex worker. You can
be a sex worker if you want too. But now
we see the t S Madison, who was once that
go out into this world follow her dreams sex work,
(38:07):
got on the internet, blogged about it, talked about it,
capitalized off of it, move forward, executive producer, television show,
like all of this stuff. So it's just like, wait,
I don't even have to do this no more. And
I think that the beautiful thing is that when we
tell the stories about our lives, about the dark parts,
if it's sex work or whatever, that the perspective changes
(38:30):
when we are in control of how the narrative comes forward,
and that is you've been in utter and complete control
of your narrative since I've known about you. It sounds
like for a very long time, yes, ma'am, Yes, ma'am.
And and there's some people who you know, love sex
working don't want to leave the business. But I think
having a vision. I know trans woman who've done sex
work and now have master's degrees and they've left that behind.
(38:52):
And you've clearly always had a plan for your life.
And it is clear to me that you've had the
vision for this show for a very long time when
all this stuff was going around with the first incarnation
of the the First Queen's Court and its hilarious as
you are, you have your testimony is so utterly and
completely necessary for you to go from your Internet, your
(39:14):
Facebook lives, your YouTube shows to we TV. Is an
inspiration to everyone out there. Thank you for being you. Yes, Laverne,
thank you. Like listen, this is a I've always wanted
to have a wanted to sit and have a candid
conversation with you because I was like girl as loud,
laughing and color as I am. I was getting the
whip cracked on my back because I wasn't you, and
(39:37):
that breaks my heart. Other trans women have told me
that another trans woman was fat Shane. Now, people don't
know what I eat, first of all, but you have
a black trans woman was fatching by her manager. People
who don't know me are saying that when Laverne wouldn't
do this or wouldn't do that, and to use it
against another trans person, It's never been what I'm about,
never and I would. I've never picked myself against another
(39:58):
trans person. I don't compare myself. I love and support
my sisters and brothers and non binary siblings and not
it that breaks my heart. Oh, but here we are here,
we are yeah, we are. You remember when he beat
me because I ain't in the in the color purple?
Of course I remember, of course, had you girl, I
(40:18):
live for the color purple girl. We can help go
down a whole color purple rabbit. So that's kind of
what it feels like to a lot to lots of
trans girls, who who are you know? Coming up? And
then we don't have the same story, and I don't
want that to be for me, Like now that the
doors left open from whatever I've done did, don't compare
(40:38):
to gross. Each girl has their own story. Every girl's
story is important. Right now. We have M J. Rodriguez,
we have Dominique Jackson, we have India More, we have
Hunter Shaffer over on ahdo we have there's so many,
we have angelic ross everywhere and just turning it. I
mean and Alexandrew Gray, Who's like, we have so many
(41:00):
more of us out there now that we hopefully you
can let that go. And I think anyone out there.
Do not compare trans people to each other. Do not
pit us against each other. We're not interested in that.
Do not tell a trans person they need to be
more like another trans person that is fucked up. It's
utterly fucked up. Do not do that anymore. I like
(41:23):
to end the podcast with this question that comes from
my therapy, actually, and it's a somatic therapy, and the
question is what else is true? And it's basically like
when things are hard and rough and I'm struggling that
I can focus on that, but I could also take
my energy and focus on the things that are neutral
and positive in my life. I can focus on what
(41:43):
else is true? So T S. Madison today, the day
after the premiere of your show, congratulations you, so proud
of you. Thank you so much today for you, Maddie.
What else is true? What is true is I've done
things that they said that I would never be able
to do. What is true is I'm not bound by
(42:04):
the shackles of my past. What is true is I'm
here now and I am here by divine purpose. And
what is true is I have impacted the world and
I'll have a legacy whether tomorrow is the last day.
(42:26):
And I thank God for it, and I thank you
for let me be here on this podcast, but you
grow on and chopping it up. So now I know
that you would be a good fit on The Queen's
Supreme Court Girl, because I because we started, I try
to be good. Because I try to be good, I
try not to like say, I know we got we
(42:47):
gotta dig into, but now be that we both will
get in trouble. We know how to behave enough just
to say enough. But people don't want to see you
behave girl. They really want the mass, they really care.
I love you so much. I'm so proud of so
people can Well, you can catch im T. S. Madison
(43:08):
on The Ties Madison Experience on we TV Thursday nights
at ten pm nights. Are you still doing this Queen
Supreme Court on? Are you taking a break? You gotta
watch We've got We've got a lot of production stuff
going on. You gotta watch Laverne. You know, you might
be proud of your of your sister at the end
of the jam, already proud of my but a little
bit more, already proud of me a little bit more.
(43:29):
You just got to watch the sea. But make sure
you guys are following me on Instagram at the real
Tis Madison, and make sure you're following me on YouTube. T. S.
Madison Hinton. I'm just make sure you guys are watching
the show. It's a good show. It's a breath of
fresh air for reality television. It's not messy. It's a
little shady because we've got some shade coming down to that.
It's shady. There's reading, but it's fun and it's hilarious
(43:51):
and it's really touching. It's really touching. Congratulations, it's a
really good Thank you, Thank you, Lavern, and congratulation on
this on this Magup podcast, and thank you so much
for having t s. Madison Hinton. Oh my god. I
love that woman so much. I've been a fan for
(44:12):
a really long time. And when I heard her show,
What's Happening on we I thought, you know, I thought
about how the world wants to pit, you know, trans
people against each other, pit martinalized people against each other.
And now that she has this platform, I suspected people
might be making comparisons. And Maddie is Maddie and Laverne
is Laverne, and there's nothing but love between us and
(44:36):
her stories, her humor, her testimony. She is a superstar.
She's always been a superstar. And there are so many
superstars out there in different communities who just have not
had the platform yet to show it off. Madison built
that platform for herself. She made it happen with a
(44:58):
lot of determination and just star quality that can't be taught.
I love Tis Madison and you can watch the TS
Madison Experience Thursday nights on WI. You must thank you
(45:24):
for listening to The Laverne Cox Show. Please rate, review, subscribe,
and share with everyone you know. You can find me
on Instagram and Twitter at Laverne Cox and on Facebook
at Laverne Cox. For read Until next time, stay in
the love. The Laverne Cox Show is a production of
Shonda land Audio in partnership with I Heart Radio. For
(45:48):
more podcasts from Shonda land Audio, visit the I Heart
Radio app, Apple podcast, or wherever you listen to your
favorite shows.
Welcome to the Laverne Cox Show, a production of Shonda
Land Audio in partnership with My Heart Radio. Honey, is
it all? Is it all? Honey? Is this miss recording?
What's up? YouTube? Land, Twitter and Instagram, last, Snapchat, Crown,
the Scruff, b GC Jack, Facebook, Periscope, and less but
(00:22):
not least, every single one of my bitches Chorus, San
Mingo and the lands all across the land. This is
your grol T. S. Madison and I'm coming to you loud,
live and always unfailor in color from the marvelous Chateau.
I feel like my day is a complain if I
have not heard you say that. Hello everyone, and welcome
(00:47):
to the Laverne Cox Show. There's something about a really
good catchphrase, and today's guest has so many, so many
of them. I am so ex ight it. I'm going
to be speaking with T. S. Madison, a woman who
has inspired me, who has cracked me up for years,
and I just think it's a genius of personal branding
(01:11):
and just a superstar. T. S. Madison is an openly
transgender entertainer, social media personality, entrepreneur, and l g B
t Q plus activist. Tis Madison has worked her ass
off for decades to create her own platform. She became
a YouTube sensation as the co host of The Queen's
Supreme Court, and now it's the star of the new
(01:33):
we TV show, The T. S. Madison Experience. Please enjoy
my conversation with T. S. Madison. Hello, T. S. Madison,
and welcome to the podcast. How are you feeling today? Girl?
Over Cox Honey, the inventor of all the things. I
am sitting here with you. Girl. It is time. It
(01:53):
is so overdue. It's so overdue. We should let the
people know. Recording this on March fifth, the day after
the premiere of The T. S. Madison Experience on we TV.
And how do you feel about the first episode? How
do you feel? This is so the long time coming?
But today I'm really like a producer Laverne, you know
(02:15):
the first time when you when you produce your show,
like you like, what are the numbers and what are
they saying? And what's the feedback? And how do the
people like it? God? I still I'm doing all this pressed.
It's it's a lot. You know. I don't know how
you've done it for so many years, because we've all
watched the Laverne Cox experience. I can't tell you, Maddie,
(02:38):
I've been perpetually exhausted for like eight years. But I'm saying, no,
the more things that I can have a little bit
more time to myself. You have to find your time
to recharge. You have to find your time to like
right now, isn't that time right the wave now? No,
this is definitely not not the time. And I'm gonna
do the best that i can to my energy high.
(03:01):
And I want to say this though, I want to
say thank you for unscrewing the door and leaving it open.
And one thing that Funky Dyneva says all the time
is that when we occupied spaces as LBGT plus people,
(03:23):
we can't go in there and up the thing. How
do you have to make sure that you do it
and leave the door open for other people to come
behind you? And and and we have to go in
there with grace and dignity and all of this stuff.
And I'm gonna share a little bit. Mm hmm, girl,
Why y'all got the glad police on me? I didn't
(03:48):
have the Glad police is on you? Girl? What what's
going on with the team? No, they're good. No, they're
really good. Like I know, I'm just I'm I'm making
a joke out of it. It's it's really good. Like
they want to pr train you and stuff to make
sure because of our list. Listen, it's no secret hood.
I'm a loud, loving and color and you know, I
don't give a day. I'm sometimes but I have found
out that in this process right now and going on
(04:09):
this place, that the responsibility that that you have as
a as a torchbearer, it can be a little bit overwhelming,
a little bit, you know, because like you you have
to be very careful about stuff that you say, because
you know, you don't just represent yourself anymore. You represent
a plethora of people, not only LBGT plus people, black people,
(04:33):
you know, women and women. Can I tell you that pressure?
I mean for me, it really hit in twenty fourteen,
It really hit Ineen when after the Katie Kirk interview
after Time magazine cover. But I think we're in a
new space now. I don't know when I think we
have to let that go because I think we have
to be responsible for our community. But I think now
(04:55):
with you and there's so many trance people out there
now on TV right so You don't have to represent
the whole community. You can represent you and you. You're hilarious.
You know, I've been watching you for years, girl, so
I and I still watch you, and I can. I
can sit and watch T. S. Madison in the car
ordering going to like McDonald's or whatever, ordering food. I love.
(05:19):
It's such a trance thing that, like, so when you're talking,
you know, you're talking in the car and all of
a sudden you're on the intercom, Hi, can I please
order a you know, two piece with It's just that
never gets old either. There's just so many things they clocked,
that voice hone you, that drives through how do you
may get up? You may get some floor on your hamburger, girl,
(05:40):
your hamburger birl may start and tasting like You're like,
you want this ship taste like the floor? What did
they do to my hamburger? There's just so many nuances
like it is the most entertaining thing ever. T. S.
Madison after Dark is my favorite. Shout out to Litanya girl.
(06:01):
The stories I live for the stories of of the
trade and the clients, and I live for all of it.
We need this, we need and we needed for a
very long time, and I think the beautiful thing is
is that now the world is ready. And I think
when I said this to Billy Porter, we were talking
a few weeks ago, and I said, it's still beautiful
(06:21):
that you're still alive and that you survived because the
world has caught up to you. And Madison, the world
has caught up to you. We don't have to be
in this respectability politics anymore. And that's really why I
wanted to have this conversation today. And for me it
was you. You have to look at it to lavern
my entrance into uh mainstream visibility because you know, I've
(06:44):
been an underground girl for a long time, but my
interest into that was just me selling a product. When
I was doing the little vines, it was just me
selling the product at the time in the business that
I was in. We should clarify for the audience that
I don't think you'll mind me saying it. Maddie has
a history and sex work and she um started her
own porn business and turned it out, and like you were,
(07:06):
you were peaking at that time too, like Boom, and
they were tearing me up like all honey, you are
trash and la Vernes queen and your this and the other,
and I'm like, I'm not trying to be like like
we're all different, Like why can't I not celebrate my
sister who's paving the way for something I may occupied
(07:28):
this space. I don't know, why would y'all do that?
And the gaggy is Laverne loves the t S. The
t S loves Laverne, and she knows that we are
polar opposites, but we are the same. So we got
that's the piece. It's like when I I was watching
the show last night, I was like, yes, Mattie and
I on the service. To me, it seemed completely different.
(07:50):
But I'm from Alabama, I have a religious mother, I
grew up in the church. I am a block transplant.
There's so many things that we have in common. It's
very different and path and like, but for the grace
of God, I may have been having to do what
you were doing, you know, on the stroll in Miami
and in Atlanta. But it's all good. It's all good.
And what I love about your history and sex work
(08:13):
is that you're open and honest about it. You tell
the truth about It's like their stories or legendary and
I'm so happy that you survived it. But then I
think that it's so important that you you You were like,
I need to be the boss. I need to be
the one producing these videos. I need to be the
one distributing them, because that's where the money is. Can
you talk to us about when when it clicked for
(08:33):
you that you were like, Okay, I need to be
the boss of this and not be, you know, just
used by these other people who are really making the
real money. When I actually sat back and I watched
the way that can I be candid leavern girl? I
want you to I want you here to be fully
you and do you? Yes, girl, relax and do you
(08:58):
She gave me permission. Okay, listen, when I saw all
those white companies pimping out, and I do feel I
don't want to say pimping out heavy because you know,
we go in knowing that we need to start somewhere,
But I'm saying pimping out, Like, girl, we work for
these people, like our black skin is so expensive. It
(09:20):
is expensive. Our black skin is powerful, Our black skin
is like the money maker. And you get us and
you give us quarters, pennies, nickels on the dollar, to
bear our nude bodies to perform in in in the video.
You own all the rights, you own this stuff, and
(09:42):
then you market the white girl as better than us.
And this is no shade to my to my white sisters,
but you market the white girl better than us. This
art here, this is God. And you know those are
those girls, and I know you may not. This is
the niche if like this go down, if you want
to go down this dark place over here, you're gonna
(10:03):
like these girls too. But this is what they were
buying over here, these the black girls, and you were
using this money to make the white girls look look sickly, No, ma'am. Yeah.
And that's why I'm so passionate about that, because I
need them to understand that I walked into a white
(10:26):
world and told them, Now, Madison, when you come do
this scene? You know, would you come do this or
would you would you film this? And you now, and
if I do, this is what I want. I want.
I want money on the front end. I want money
on the back end. I want producer rights, I want
(10:48):
distribution rights. I want to be able to have residual
income from this stuff. Should I pass away right now,
my mother can have money, my brothers can have money, whatever.
And it was very much like, how does she know about?
How does she know this? How does she know? You know? Um?
I was introduced to Phil his name is Phil when
(11:10):
he was the owner of Evasive Angles and he evasive.
He's um sin white man. He had never produced trans films.
They said, I have been watching you here in Atlanta,
like your videos outstaill mine and mine are high, high produced.
(11:31):
I said, well, I understand my audience for one, and
for two, what you produced don't look like me. And
what you have to understand is I know you're coming
down here to sail to an urban market. I got
there a lot, baby. I don't work to beat out.
(11:51):
I've been on the chat line. I don't dealt with
the trade. I know what what they like. I know
what men who are attracted to plus size black women
what they're gonna like on a plus size black trans woman.
It felt home to a lot of black men when
I was, you know, making those films, because that's t Shirt,
(12:14):
that's Kinika, that's Tasha. You know that I put to
school with her up to really understanding when I'm hearing,
is that a person who really who learned the market
the hard way, and then it was like, Okay, this
is the market. I'm going to produce a product for
that market. This is it's capitalism. And what I just
love about it is that you have always been a businesswoman.
And when you when I became aware of you was
(12:36):
when your vine went viral new Weave twenty two inches. Yeah,
and literally a girlfriend of mine showed that we are
having a group text and a girlfriend and I was like,
I was like, what's going on? And I looked you
up and then there were videos, a bunch of videos,
and I found out who you were. That was that
when that vine went viral? Was that intentional? Was that?
(12:58):
And then how are you able to capitalized on that
vine going viral? Like because I knew you made money? No, Lavernion,
it actually was not intentional. I stumbled across a social
site where I saw people putting up a little six
second videos and I initially started out funny, even hilarious.
(13:19):
It's hilarious, girl. Yes, I remember the first vine that
I ever put up. It was when Beyonce was pregnant,
and I remember me putting this thing on my stomach
and me sitting down and and like reenacting when she
sat now on a talk show she was doing. And
I just there was one vine that I put up, girl,
(13:43):
it ain't really getting no traction. It was a little people,
you know, laughing and joking at it. But I started
scrolling through vine and I said, wait a minute, they
have after dark. What is this? So I clicked the
hashtag and I'm looking at the hashtag. I was like, wait,
are they nude on't here? Okay, I'm typing away, researching
(14:06):
like how how many clicks does this kid? And how
does this is this marketable? Oh? Here we go. Let
me promote my website. So that's all it was for me.
So I did it. I had no idea what was
gonna happen. And now way were now just yes, boom,
just boom it just Laverty was boom huge. And so
(14:30):
some boys from New Orleans and some I don't want
to call them trade, but honey, they got those tendencies.
Some boys from New Orleans stumbled across it and reposted
it and and typed in the caption this right here,
how does this woman have a dick? How's that for
(15:04):
a little true after tiny break, We've got more for you.
We are back picking up where we left. That's what
(15:24):
it was. How does this woman have a day? And
I promise you it was them reposting that. Let me
title it right, How does this fat woman have a dick?
Oh my god, it was insane. It was like crazy.
(15:45):
I woke up the next morning and it was like,
all this stuff is everywhere, like everywhere. So the boy
who reposted it, he had came up with all of
these I think that they may translate to transphobic slurs,
but he came up with this. He called me a sugar.
Oh my god, I heard all of them sugar. And
(16:08):
so he went on this tirade like wearing me out.
But the more he wore me out, the more that
it started to spread. So I started doing little videos
to him, like, you know, taunting him. And the more
I taunted him with the videos, the more they were
going about because me naked and all this stuff or
whatever the girl, And then more people were going to
your side, the side yes, And then I started my
(16:30):
site increase. And then I'm gonna tell you what really
made me start marketing the moment that they took one
of the little pieces and put it on Tosh point. Oh,
I remember it being my birthday, October twenty second, two
thousand and fourteen. I was I was in the bed
sleeping and ten o'clock Tosh came on and it said,
(16:51):
all right, everybody, let us introduce you to your dick
of the week. So I'm seeing him and I'm like,
wait a minute, and it's me at The audience went
crazy and it's like after that girl, I said, man,
you gotta make you some T shirts. Well with the
T shirts, what did the T shirts saying? She got
a dick? Oh my god, Yes, she got up dick.
(17:18):
And it was all because I was arguing with this
this boy. He was like, I don't know what you are?
What are you? Are you a woman? Oh my god?
And I really think this was a big, big introduction
to people might have been bad, could have been bad
to people who had never seen a trance person, who
(17:40):
if I was just doing regular vice, he possibly would
have thought that, you know, I was just uh, this
black woman. But what drove him insane was him seeing it.
And it's just like so confused by I've been confused
because he was a little If he's spending that much energy,
he was probably a little turned on excited girl. That's why.
That's why I said a trade tendencies. Um. If I
(18:02):
ever get an opportunity to run into him anywhere, he
probably won't talk to me. What I would say, you know,
I want to thank you. You're you're messy and you're confused,
and you know it caused me to be in the
place that i'm and now he helped that, like this
boy was on a rampage doing these videos about me.
(18:24):
What I will say to you, though, Maddie, is that
not everybody, not every transperson, could take that opportunity and
then let it lead to the next thing in terms
of monetary gain, in terms of raising your profile. And
so I would love for people out there listening is
to be like, Okay, what can I do? How can I,
like Maddie, take a moment and really make it into something.
(18:46):
It's an entrepreneur and so that in to better my life. Well,
I think it's because the hustle in me Laverne. I
think it was because I did work the street and
stuff like that. Whatever I needed to do to make
work for me to survive. You know, you have to
turn lemons into lemonade, you know, And it's like nothing
(19:06):
is guaranteed. The streets are guaranteed, but the tricks, they're
not guaranteed. You know, none of this stuff is guaranteed.
So you've gotta be trying to figure out how am
I gonna turn the next dollar without killing anybody, without
robbing anybody, Because listen, my mother taught me, whatever you
put out, you will receive back. And I've always been
(19:27):
afraid to do anything malicious to a person, even when
I'm angry and I want to get back, I always
think and hear her saying, boo, you know, God gonna
give you what you give others, you know, so it
always keeps me away from doing anything malicious. But girl, anytime,
any time anything malicious comes to me, I'm gonna monetize
(19:51):
off of the girl. So if a person is out
there reading me for fil I'm gonna make a T shirt,
I'm gonna make a coffee mug, I'm gonna some eyelashes,
I'm gonna make a pencil. That's you know. I'm gonna
do this stuff because you gotta turn all your pain
into profit. Years ago, you had magnets that step your
pussy up. Magnets the check less literally about four or
(20:14):
five to support you. But then I also gave them
to get to the girl my girlfriends. What was it?
Check list? Step your what is it? Own? A business? What? What? What?
What was it? Let me tell you, Liver, that was
a vine. That was a vine from me reading that boy.
Oh yes, yes, there there it is. I didn't get hadn't.
(20:39):
I didn't know the origin story I was reading. I
was reading him. I was like, how do you talk
about me every day? Can't you find something else to do?
Be yourself? Bid, step your pussy up, honey, get a
job on the business and so you know that day
I had their belong here on I was over rid. Girl.
(21:00):
Can I tell you your personal brand? And the branding
and the catchphrases are legendary. I mean, is it on? Can? Well?
Is it on? Started? I will tell you how that started. Girl.
Are you're going to holler? So just get rid of holler?
And you're gonna say, girl, do you take everything that
you do and make money? Yes? I was trying to
(21:23):
figure out on YouTube because you know, people were they
were making them videos and about me on YouTube. I
had my girlfriend, Diamond Styles. I don't know if you
know Diamond Styles. I loved I love Diamond Styles and
she was doing these interviews with with trans people, and
trans Girl had made a video. Well she interviewed her
(21:44):
and she said something about me, and I was like,
I'm going to cuss this bitch out, you know, And
so I was like, how do you? How do you
do this? I got my computer and I started and
I didn't know if it was. Of course, I was
like I was, I said, is it on? Is it on? Honey?
Is this bitch recording? Like? Is the aggression? I was
(22:07):
so eager to try to get the thing on so
I could cuss off. So know it yourself. Man, when
Maddie wants to cut somebody out, this is an opportunity
for a new catchphase and a new monetary moment. Is
it on? Is it on? It this bitch recording? Hello? YouTube? Snapchat?
(22:29):
But it could give us the honey? Is this misrecording?
I was like, honey, is it on? Is it on? Honey?
Is this misrecording? What's up? YouTube? Lay and Twitter and Instagram, land, snapchat, ground,
the scruff b g C Jack, Facebook, Periscope and less
but not least, if a single one of my bitch
isn't Chorison Mingo and the lands all across the land.
(22:50):
This is your girl, T s Madison. I'm coming to
you loud live and always unfailor in color from the
marvelous Chateau Girls. I ever gets old, Maddie, Can I
tell you? I've been watching your videos for years, You've
been saying there for you, it never gets old. I
feel like my day is a complete if I have
not heard you say that it gets And then the loud,
(23:11):
live and in color section, I just I live, I
live for you. The new show, and we should probably
talk a little bit about your show, but I love
that it's still you. That they didn't because I was like, oh,
we don't need to sanitize Maddie. We just need to
let Maddie just be Maddie because she's enough. And I
saw the show and it's you. I felt the team
I UM and miss Mary. It's just obviously we've gotten
(23:34):
to know miss Mary through your own YouTube and Facebook
um stuff. But miss Mary was just so transcendent last night.
She reminds me a little bit of my mother a
little bit. She was just so it was so beautiful.
I cried, I cried, I cried, I laughed. It was
so good. It was really really good. It was like
it was I was thinking, this is this dysfunctional family
(23:56):
that like most of us have, that is that you
read each other and you might fight, but it's all
in love and you feel the love. And I think
that's why people love you, because we feel your heart
and we felt it in the show, and that just
it just it warms my heart. I honestly told the network,
I was like, listen, if you police me too hard
(24:18):
to show will flop. I know when and where to
turn up. I ain't that crazy, but but you gotta
let me do me, you know. And it's World of
Wonder that's producing the show. And I felt very comfortable
with World of Wonder producer show. You've been working with
the World of Wonder for years. You did a series
(24:38):
in the car with them, let me pick you Up,
Let me pick you Up. And it was important for
me to explain to them, listen, I'm coming to you
with this project that I have right now. I needed
to be me. I don't need to work for you guys,
I need us to work together. And you know that's
how I became executive producer of it. And when I
watched it last night, I was like, Wow, I felt
(25:00):
that these people have my back and I felt you know,
reality t V can be messy, Laverne. You know we've
been in this, but I felt that that was not
the angle that they wanted to go. They don't want
to go messy like they have other shows that are messy.
It's a new day. It's a new day. And I
also understand that you thought to have black people on
your crew and l g B t Q people on
(25:22):
your crew. And it makes a difference who's making the show.
It makes a difference who is the director, who's the showrunner,
who's writing, if there's writing, who's editing. All those things
make a difference in terms of how we're represented. And
it felt like you. It felt like you, and it
felt authentic. It is it is me, Laverne, it is
it's me. It's my family, you know, my mother. Listen,
(25:42):
I'm not going to try to clean up her words.
If she want to say strue, then let us say
damn strue streaming, which is she doesn't. If she wanta
ain't Fitch annual, fitch geral, then that's what it is. Oh,
she's so adorable. She's so adorable, and it's just so beautiful.
And I think to the love, the unconditional love that
(26:05):
Miss Mary has for you have always made for years
my brother and I. My brother loves you as well,
and we've talked about it for years. Just the relationship
that you guys have that is so it's just real.
And I think what people also need to know is
that there's a lot of mis Mary's out there. My
mother never ever growing up with hard and I've talked
to her about it. I've talked publicly growing up it's hard.
But once I moved away and I was in New
(26:27):
York and I started at my transition, she never said
I don't want to see you. She never said I'm
going to disown you. She that that was never. She
was concerned about my health and well being. She didn't understand,
of course, but she never said I'm going to disown
you and I don't want to be in your life.
And I know that happens to a lot of people,
but there are a lot of black mothers out there
who have loved their LGBTQ children. There are so many
(26:50):
out there who who are have and are loving their children.
Can I be honest with you? I want to be
honest with you, Laverne, please for me, which I think
we're gonna do into it more in the season. You'll see,
because I learned a lot about myself filming this this show.
I I listened to her during the filming of this listen,
and it wasn't the fact that she was in the
(27:13):
church and and and save and stuff like that. It
was the fact that I heard everything around like everybody
else that the've be in the church, me going to church,
and you know, gay is going to hell, and don't
be like this. You know what they do in the
South all that, and and if you become one of them, yes,
if you're an old girl. The bill they passed, it's awful,
(27:34):
I know. And they say if you turn out to
be there, you're definitely gonna bust hell wide open. So
you hear this stuff, and then you you hear your
mother love God so much, and you're like, oh my God,
like in my heart, like I don't want to embarrass
my family. So you leave, Yeah, you leave, you you leave,
and it's so important that you you go to find yourself. However,
(27:55):
when I hear her talk, now I understand it at
an older age. Now I hear to talk, and she says,
you didn't give me a chance to accept you. You
didn't give me a chance to grow with you. You
didn't give me a chance. And I was like, because
I heard everything around and this is why we helped
to make sure that the conversation that we're having around
young people aren't homophobic and aren't transphobic, because you don't know,
(28:19):
this is a straight world. We live in, this straight world.
There were so many homophobic There were so many homophobic
things I heard from my mother's lips when I was
growing up, a churchgoing woman, Christian woman I heard, and
so of course I thought that there was not going
to be a space for me to be myself. And
like it was, it was really clear. And I was
a bully kid who everyone was calling the effort in
(28:41):
the city and all these things. Yeah, me too, and
and I was taking to therapy in third grade, you know,
to like fix me and make me more masculine, so
all those things. So of course I didn't think that
she would accept me. So I needed new I needed
to get out of Mobile, Alabama as soon as possible
so I could be myself. And that's what I did.
You had to leave to find yourself. But what we
(29:02):
left at home were parents that we didn't give the
opportunity to do that. And I think that every time
my mother was sitting here watching the show play that
she was just crying, like this is so real for her.
And I feel like that if I can go back
and do some of this again, I definitely would tell
(29:25):
my younger stelf, you know, break it down for you know,
get mad at her, walk out and come back in
and be like, Mama, this is what's going on. And
maybe I wouldn't have been introduced to this dark world
that I was introduced to. Maybe I wouldn't have been
involved in the streets or or maybe I wouldn't have,
you know, know the street hustle and know the trade
(29:45):
and know all the dark stuff. And maybe a lot
of people wouldn't be subjected to because I'm speaking from me,
a lot of trains people wouldn't be subjected to HIV,
AIDS and diseases. And what I know it's the truth, though,
is that without a test there's no testimony. And your
story is a story of so many other trans women
out there, black trans women who are hustling right now,
(30:07):
who have hustled and they they need to see themselves too,
and they need to see themselves, you know. You know
there's other trans women who are high profile. We have
talked about sex work, but not like you know, the
sex stories the t S. Madison after Dark is legendary.
I live, I live. I love it too. You know
why I love it. It's because we have to. We
(30:28):
have to tell those sex stories because this is what
goes on, this is what happens in our lives, and
some of those sex stories could definitely solve some of
those trans murders that have that have happened. Thank you,
And I love the way you talk about this. You've
talked very candidly in a way that like I've never
fully been able to that when that when men lie
(30:50):
and say they don't and they didn't know often when
trans every time, almost every time a trans woman is murdered,
it's like, well you should tell them, And you've always
been for years saying they already know. They just don't
want you to know. And people want to be in
denial that men are tracted to us and are having
sex with us and doing all the things with us.
People want to be in denial. You know, I'm thinking
(31:11):
about like men, how a lot of men who date
us state trans women don't come forward. And I was, like,
most of the men who are having sex with us,
do you see it's as women and it's not a
big difference for them, And I think the denial and
like the so many women my man would never I'm like, girl, girl, yeah, yeah, good,
and girl listen. So this is why when people like, oh, Masses,
(31:35):
she's all she talks about is sex. I'm like, it's
important that I talk about these things because there's a
there's this fiction going on that men don't love us,
men aren't having sex. Yes they are. They are loving us,
They are having sex with us. They are paying for surgeries.
They are investing in our and the way we look,
They invest in the way we live. Girl, you know
(31:57):
one of my lives love iron. I've been in the
marvel Let's chateau all these years, Bitch, I worked for nobody,
somebody husband paying for me, you know, and this in
the home ownership too. I just love I mean, I
love it. I love that you. I think I remember
one video you talked about how you had to like
work extra for you. You You didn't put any money down
(32:17):
for the mortgage and so you have to work extra
for it. And can you talk about the home ownership
and how it's so important for you to own your
own home or it's extremely important for me and for
for me to push that for home ownership or ownership
of a wheen this, how's this big? How's bigger than
this of an apartment or whatever? Because we are always
(32:39):
deemed homeless and we do suffer, you know, from from
homelessness in our community. However, when you when you have
the opportunity to bitch, do everything that the straight people
can do. Girl, go out there and buy you a house.
When you got the money, if you're gonna sell your
coachinge go out there to save you up a love
(33:00):
money and buy you a house. So that, honey, when
that Coucci is old and retired, girl, you can get
an equity loan on your house, honey, and start your
business or something. Do something. It is important because this
is this is equity. We need to be a part
of wealth, Laverne and love that vision. And it's like
and so there and for the people who are doing
their only fans right now are doing whatever, It's like,
(33:22):
what are you saving and what are you building with that.
I gotta take a teensy break here, but I'll be fast.
All right, let's get back to it. I mean, some
people do sex work for a very long time, and
then sometimes you're less marketable as you get older. And
(33:45):
so what's the plans, sister? Some people that do anything
and they're less marketable when they're older. What's the guy's
name that's that's getting evicted from his mansion? I forget.
He's the fashion guy Andre Andre Talent. Yes, Andre, that
broke my hard. I love Andre so much. I love
him too, But girl, what were you doing with your coin?
What are you doing with this stuff? Like? You are
(34:06):
a gay man? Who is you? Who is occupying spaces
that a lot of us want to want to break
into the fashion world? What are you doing with your coin?
Forty years? I just I'm obsessed with Andre. So I
read Andre's book, Um the chefon Trenches, and Andre got
by on the kindness of Carl Logerfelm, the kindness of
(34:27):
the folks. I forget who owns the house and that
he lives in. He got by on the kindness of
so many people for so long that maybe he wasn't
even making money. But he was just being gifted Chanelle
and gifted this because he was edited large for vote.
But a girl, if you it's a hustle. So if
you're hustling when you look at it, if if somebody's
(34:47):
donating your house and they're donating you cars, they're donating
you bags, and I'm not mad at him at all,
but bitch, be wise in these situations. Girl, you are
no matter how hi we go in this world. Laverne,
you're transt mass in your trans Andre. You're a gay man.
You know, they put limitations on it, even though they
(35:10):
black black stay black gay man. And I think I
think he thought that those relationships would sustain him, alleged.
I read the story about the house. Apparently he um
was gifted the house, and he was he made improvements
on the house, and he thought it was his and
he believed in the kindness of these white people. I
think he believed in that. And the chickens have come
(35:31):
home to Ruth and so you cannot rely on the
kindness of other folks. You have to make sure you've
got your own. I think that's the lesson, and that
there are probably details that we don't know about the situation,
it's as cautionary. Taylor's like, what I mean, what's the
retirement account, what's the home ownership, what's the hot what's
the plan so that we going forward we're not destitute
(35:52):
because there's so many people. Bell hooks Um, the feminist writer,
when we she owns multiple homes, she was like, I
don't want to be one of those black women writers
who died penning less. And so we have to we
have to plan. Yes, Laverne, listen, the streets have taught
me so much. Howadly the tricks stopped coming, you still
got light bible to pay, girl, you better put some
(36:13):
money somewhere. So, even though he was not in the
sex industry, he was somebody was still gifting him for
his for his goods, and the gifts stopped coming. You
learned this early and and ho in one oh one. Okay,
your dates don't last. Make the money last, yes, And
(36:37):
I think the interest, well, so much of our culture
is like we're pimping ourselves out in one way or
another in consumer capitalism. Right, So it's like there's so
many kind different kinds of sex work. I think I
think you know people who want to demonize sex work.
I think there's just their degrees of it, and so
it's like, what are you going to do to make
(36:58):
the most of whatever situation that you're in, you know,
and hopefully keep your dignity, keep your dignity and be
kind to people, but like, what are you gonna do?
And I love that you keep it real with all
of that and tell the truth about it, because hopefully
they the young girls coming up in boys and non
binary people who are doing there, who are doing their business,
are thinking ahead and are thinking um long term and
(37:20):
thinking how do I like make more money and capitalized,
constantly capitalized and bring and make it, you know, make
it bigger. Yes, then, and it's so important for for
we TV and World of Wonder to give opportunities to
girls like myself because what it does now is it
restructures the narrative that you know, all we do is
sex work. Okay, that was then, That was twenty years ago,
(37:44):
twenty five years ago. Now, the girls that have done
sex work their executive producers, you know, their own networks.
They're they're building opportunities so that the narrative changes. You
no longer have to be a sex worker. You can
be a sex worker if you want too. But now
we see the t S Madison, who was once that
go out into this world follow her dreams sex work,
(38:07):
got on the internet, blogged about it, talked about it,
capitalized off of it, move forward, executive producer, television show,
like all of this stuff. So it's just like, wait,
I don't even have to do this no more. And
I think that the beautiful thing is that when we
tell the stories about our lives, about the dark parts,
if it's sex work or whatever, that the perspective changes
(38:30):
when we are in control of how the narrative comes forward,
and that is you've been in utter and complete control
of your narrative since I've known about you. It sounds
like for a very long time, yes, ma'am, Yes, ma'am.
And and there's some people who you know, love sex
working don't want to leave the business. But I think
having a vision. I know trans woman who've done sex
work and now have master's degrees and they've left that behind.
(38:52):
And you've clearly always had a plan for your life.
And it is clear to me that you've had the
vision for this show for a very long time when
all this stuff was going around with the first incarnation
of the the First Queen's Court and its hilarious as
you are, you have your testimony is so utterly and
completely necessary for you to go from your Internet, your
(39:14):
Facebook lives, your YouTube shows to we TV. Is an
inspiration to everyone out there. Thank you for being you. Yes, Laverne,
thank you. Like listen, this is a I've always wanted
to have a wanted to sit and have a candid
conversation with you because I was like girl as loud,
laughing and color as I am. I was getting the
whip cracked on my back because I wasn't you, and
(39:37):
that breaks my heart. Other trans women have told me
that another trans woman was fat Shane. Now, people don't
know what I eat, first of all, but you have
a black trans woman was fatching by her manager. People
who don't know me are saying that when Laverne wouldn't
do this or wouldn't do that, and to use it
against another trans person, It's never been what I'm about,
never and I would. I've never picked myself against another
(39:58):
trans person. I don't compare myself. I love and support
my sisters and brothers and non binary siblings and not
it that breaks my heart. Oh, but here we are here,
we are yeah, we are. You remember when he beat
me because I ain't in the in the color purple?
Of course I remember, of course, had you girl, I
(40:18):
live for the color purple girl. We can help go
down a whole color purple rabbit. So that's kind of
what it feels like to a lot to lots of
trans girls, who who are you know? Coming up? And
then we don't have the same story, and I don't
want that to be for me, Like now that the
doors left open from whatever I've done did, don't compare
(40:38):
to gross. Each girl has their own story. Every girl's
story is important. Right now. We have M J. Rodriguez,
we have Dominique Jackson, we have India More, we have
Hunter Shaffer over on ahdo we have there's so many,
we have angelic ross everywhere and just turning it. I
mean and Alexandrew Gray, Who's like, we have so many
(41:00):
more of us out there now that we hopefully you
can let that go. And I think anyone out there.
Do not compare trans people to each other. Do not
pit us against each other. We're not interested in that.
Do not tell a trans person they need to be
more like another trans person that is fucked up. It's
utterly fucked up. Do not do that anymore. I like
(41:23):
to end the podcast with this question that comes from
my therapy, actually, and it's a somatic therapy, and the
question is what else is true? And it's basically like
when things are hard and rough and I'm struggling that
I can focus on that, but I could also take
my energy and focus on the things that are neutral
and positive in my life. I can focus on what
(41:43):
else is true? So T S. Madison today, the day
after the premiere of your show, congratulations you, so proud
of you. Thank you so much today for you, Maddie.
What else is true? What is true is I've done
things that they said that I would never be able
to do. What is true is I'm not bound by
(42:04):
the shackles of my past. What is true is I'm
here now and I am here by divine purpose. And
what is true is I have impacted the world and
I'll have a legacy whether tomorrow is the last day.
(42:26):
And I thank God for it, and I thank you
for let me be here on this podcast, but you
grow on and chopping it up. So now I know
that you would be a good fit on The Queen's
Supreme Court Girl, because I because we started, I try
to be good. Because I try to be good, I
try not to like say, I know we got we
(42:47):
gotta dig into, but now be that we both will
get in trouble. We know how to behave enough just
to say enough. But people don't want to see you
behave girl. They really want the mass, they really care.
I love you so much. I'm so proud of so
people can Well, you can catch im T. S. Madison
(43:08):
on The Ties Madison Experience on we TV Thursday nights
at ten pm nights. Are you still doing this Queen
Supreme Court on? Are you taking a break? You gotta
watch We've got We've got a lot of production stuff
going on. You gotta watch Laverne. You know, you might
be proud of your of your sister at the end
of the jam, already proud of my but a little
bit more, already proud of me a little bit more.
(43:29):
You just got to watch the sea. But make sure
you guys are following me on Instagram at the real
Tis Madison, and make sure you're following me on YouTube. T. S.
Madison Hinton. I'm just make sure you guys are watching
the show. It's a good show. It's a breath of
fresh air for reality television. It's not messy. It's a
little shady because we've got some shade coming down to that.
It's shady. There's reading, but it's fun and it's hilarious
(43:51):
and it's really touching. It's really touching. Congratulations, it's a
really good Thank you, Thank you, Lavern, and congratulation on
this on this Magup podcast, and thank you so much
for having t s. Madison Hinton. Oh my god. I
love that woman so much. I've been a fan for
(44:12):
a really long time. And when I heard her show,
What's Happening on we I thought, you know, I thought
about how the world wants to pit, you know, trans
people against each other, pit martinalized people against each other.
And now that she has this platform, I suspected people
might be making comparisons. And Maddie is Maddie and Laverne
is Laverne, and there's nothing but love between us and
(44:36):
her stories, her humor, her testimony. She is a superstar.
She's always been a superstar. And there are so many
superstars out there in different communities who just have not
had the platform yet to show it off. Madison built
that platform for herself. She made it happen with a
(44:58):
lot of determination and just star quality that can't be taught.
I love Tis Madison and you can watch the TS
Madison Experience Thursday nights on WI. You must thank you
(45:24):
for listening to The Laverne Cox Show. Please rate, review, subscribe,
and share with everyone you know. You can find me
on Instagram and Twitter at Laverne Cox and on Facebook
at Laverne Cox. For read Until next time, stay in
the love. The Laverne Cox Show is a production of
Shonda land Audio in partnership with I Heart Radio. For
(45:48):
more podcasts from Shonda land Audio, visit the I Heart
Radio app, Apple podcast, or wherever you listen to your
favorite shows.
Host
Laverne Cox
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