October 31, 2024 • 42 mins
After decades of speculation, a mysterious source emerges that may solve the mystery of the missing SwordQuest treasures once and for all.
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Mark as Played
Transcript
Episode Transcript
Available transcripts are automatically generated. Complete accuracy is not guaranteed.
Speaker 1 (00:03):
One of the biggest publishing success stories of the twenty
tens was Ready Player One. The book, which came out
in twenty eleven, tells the story of Wade Watts, a
gamer living in a dystopian future who tries to find
real world treasure hidden by an eccentric game designer named
James Halliday. Deciphering the game means uncovering the location of
(00:25):
Halliday's entire fortune. This probably sounds familiar. The novel's author,
Ernest Klein, spells it out on page forty two when
Wade is asked if he recognizes an old Atari game
series called sword Quest. Wade not only recognizes it, he
can confirm the name of all four games, earth World, Fireworld,
(00:48):
water World, and Airworld, and all their prizes the Talisman,
the Chalice, the Crown, the Philosopher's Stone, and the Sword
of All Time to miss Sorcery. Wade thinks Halliday took
inspiration from the sword Quest series. Obviously, so did Ernest Klein,
(01:08):
and he earned a treasure of sorts too. It's all
pretty meta. Ready Player One was the subject of a
bidding war for publication rights. It also got Klein a
movie deal. Steven Spielberg directed the film adaptation, which came
out in twenty eighteen. Both the movie and the book
were widely but not universally loved. There was a podcast
(01:31):
that reviewed the book in excruciating detail. The title was
three hundred and seventy two pages will Never Get Back,
so you can probably guess how the hosts felt about it.
But nonetheless, Ready Player one was the kind of cultural
sensation Atari had hoped sword Quest would be a multi
media phenomenon, and no, Ernest Klein didn't wind up locating
(01:54):
the sword Quest prizes and buying them for himself, at
least we don't think he did. He's a Bout to
the future fan, so he bought a Dolorian instead. Even
though that's not where we're going with this, Ernest is
still somewhat responsible for what happens in this saga. The
concluding chapter.
Speaker 2 (02:12):
The Treasures, the Lost Treasure of sword Quest.
Speaker 1 (02:16):
That's Casey Jones. Casey works in video editing now, but
back when Ready Player one came out in twenty eleven,
Casey was employed at a coffee shop.
Speaker 2 (02:26):
So I'll back up again in two thousand and nine
twenty ten, abouts I worked at a cafe in Toronto, Ontario, Canada.
Who is a franchise location of Aroma Espresso Bars, an
Israeli chain, and it was owned and operated by one
Gabe Tremmeel, as well as his younger brother, Mark Tremmel.
(02:51):
He was assistant manager or something like that supervisor.
Speaker 1 (02:55):
Aroma had a few dozen locations in Canada. Casey worked
at one in Toronto. Casey is also a gamer, and
he happened to pick up the book everyone was talking
about Ready Player one, and of course he saw the
mention of sword Quest, and then Casey realized something. The
owners of the bar, brothers Gabe and Mark Tremmel, had
(03:17):
the same last name as Jack Tremmeil, the former owner
of Atari. Gabe and Mark were Jack's grandsons, and so
one day Casey decided to casually bring up those missing prizes.
It's a question no member of the Trammel family has
ever publicly addressed, and one they're still unwilling to comment on.
(03:38):
When the contest was canceled and the three remaining prizes
went unawarded, were the treasures destroyed or did they wind
up in the possession of the family. Atari historians have
long wanted to find out we wanted to find out
and Casey, well, Casey just asked.
Speaker 2 (03:55):
So I asked Gabe about the history, like, since he
was related to Jack Tremmel, did he ever hear anything
about this story, about these these lost artifacts of the
sword Quest and sweet steaks or contests that they were
doing but never finished.
Speaker 1 (04:13):
And then Gabe very matter of factly turned this story
upside down. For iHeartRadio, this is the legend of sword Quest.
I'm your host, Jamie Loftist, and this is the eighth
and final episode, Endgame.
Speaker 3 (04:36):
I've been thinking, sister yes Tor, about abinging our parents'
death at the hand of King taran Us.
Speaker 4 (04:43):
God.
Speaker 3 (04:44):
Sure, but I was also thinking about what else we
could do if we found the Sword of Ultimate Sorcery.
Speaker 4 (04:50):
Lop off that demon's head.
Speaker 3 (04:52):
Yeah, absolutely, and then you know, maybe we.
Speaker 4 (04:55):
Sell it, sell it.
Speaker 3 (04:57):
What I mean, a lot of collectors would pay good
money for this thing, Tor.
Speaker 5 (05:02):
The sword is for vengeance, for honor, not for commerce.
Speaker 3 (05:06):
Right, No, totally, but I'm just saying, if we find it, maybe.
Speaker 4 (05:11):
We should at least get it appraised.
Speaker 1 (05:15):
In telling the story of sword Quest, you eventually come
to a fork in the road Bear left, and you
can explore the enigma of the contest and the fate
of the prizes, which have been presumed missing for nearly
four decades bear right, and you can have a conversation
about their actual material value, not necessarily their historical significance.
(05:37):
Think of the ruby slippers from The Wizard of Oz.
They're part of film history by association. They have a
kind of magic, but they're also a commodity. One pair,
and yes, there are several pairs sold for over six
hundred thousand dollars back in twenty eleven. Like the sword
Quest prizes, other pairs have gone missing, which oddly makes
(05:59):
them the more valued and appreciated. So what would it
really mean to find these pieces of video game lore
from a monetary perspective, It depends on who you ask.
Speaker 6 (06:10):
Yeah, exactly, No, it looks fantastic, you know, and it's beautiful,
and probably that's the most expensive because as sword and
fantasy really as the ultimate I mean, I always think anyway,
you're out in the action, you're battling here, you're slaying
the dragon.
Speaker 4 (06:24):
Right.
Speaker 1 (06:25):
That's Lewis Checchia. Lewis is what you'd call uniquely qualified
to offer an opinion about the actual value of these prizes.
Today he's a part time jewelry appraiser, but more than that,
he once worked at the Franklin Mint, the collectibles company
that made the treasures.
Speaker 6 (06:43):
We were artisans, so you know, we did all sculptures,
We did dicast cars, we did numismatics, we did stamps,
we did leather bound books, dolls, pocket knives, pocket watches,
you name it. And really in the business world, people
could come to us with whatever and we could develop it.
And it sounds like that's what Attari really did.
Speaker 1 (07:05):
No, he didn't have a hand in their creation. Lewis
didn't arrive at the Mint until nineteen ninety two when
he was an intern. That's a full decade after the
prizes were produced. Later, he became a development manager for
their mid precision models think mini cars. Lewis also worked
with the airs of celebrities like John Wayne and Elvis
(07:26):
Presley to make sure the license collectibles were on target.
In doing so, Lewis realized the Mint wasn't just selling collectibles.
Speaker 6 (07:36):
We've done some amazing pieces of artwork for the Royal
House of Faberge where we worked with the licensers there.
We've worked with Ferrari and Lamborghini and Rolls Royce, and
you know, each time I had to really visit those
companies and it really helped drive home that you know,
Franklin really wasn't selling products, they were selling experiences. So
(07:59):
the the amount of work that we did to reproduce
something and to capture the spirit of John Wayne and
a John Wayne rifle, or to capture the exotic feeling
the Ferrari or Lamborghini quintash was really phenomenal because you know,
we worked directly with the people that developed them.
Speaker 1 (08:17):
Even though he didn't personally encrust the chalice with some jewels,
Lewis understands how the sausage was made at the mint,
which is important when you're trying to appraise items that
you can't physically hold in your hand. And while you
may think something related to gaming wouldn't be in the
same arena as movie props or comics or antiques, you'd
be wrong. Video game collecting exploded during the coronavirus pandemic,
(08:43):
as did most other collectibles. Rare copies of video games
still in their plastic shrink wrap now fetch thousands, tens
of thousands, and even millions of dollars. A copy of
Nintendo's Super Mario Brothers, looking like it was just pulled
off a peg at Toys r Us sold for two
million dollars. A copy of the ultra rare Atari game
(09:05):
Air Raid sold for thirty three thousand dollars thanks to
having a complete box and manual, and an original wooden
prototype of a home version of the classic Atari game Pong,
which helped launch the home gaming industry, sold for two
hundred and seventy thousand dollars in twenty twenty two. But
unlike movies, which have props and costumes, games are more ethereal.
(09:31):
Once you go through consoles and cartridges, there's not a
whole lot left. Sword Quest is one of the few
times actual tangible gaming treasures were created, and they come
with an incredible mythology surrounding them. If they ever did surface,
then it's possible the owner could strike gold that auctioned.
(09:51):
Remember the first prize, the talisman was awarded to Stephen Bell.
Stephen sold it off relatively quickly to purchase his Pontiac Fear.
He kept a tiny miniature sword from it that was
later stolen from his bedroom. The culprit, possibly an ex girlfriend.
But let's say it hadn't been dismantled for material, or
(10:13):
let's say the jeweler that bought it from Stephen kept
it intact. How much would it be worth today, we
asked Lewis. Oh. Lewis, by the way, operates an animal
rescue in Philadelphia, Pennsylvania. It's Morris Animal Refuge, and they're
devoted to finding good homes for pets in need of them.
Lewis was good enough to try and appraise some invisible treasures,
(10:35):
so we wanted to make sure to mention his work there.
But yeah, back to the talisman, which may have been
destroyed in nineteen eighty three but still exists in photos.
Lewis believes that if the medallion was worth twenty five
thousand dollars in nineteen eighty two, it probably had around
sixty three ounces of gold given the market rate at
the time, so.
Speaker 6 (10:56):
That I ambul it without the stone, without the sword,
it would probably be north of you know, definitely the
value of gold in there. If it is eighteen care gold,
probably be in the north of one hundred thousand.
Speaker 1 (11:08):
The only other prize to be awarded was the chalice,
which contest winner Michael Rideout took home in nineteen eighty
four after being kept waiting for a few months, and
right now it's the only known surviving prize of the
entire contest. Michael Rideout is still believed to be in
possession of it, but he wouldn't confirm that with us,
So we're left to wonder if the base of the
(11:30):
chalice is hollow, which makes a difference in its value.
Speaker 6 (11:35):
Without the weight, it would be really difficult from that standpoint.
But I mean that is a one off, you know,
a beautiful chalice, and with the atari, I mean that
should be well north of one hundred thousand dollars.
Speaker 1 (11:46):
But that's if the base of the chalice is hollow,
if it's actual solid gold.
Speaker 6 (11:51):
If it was solid gold, it could infect double the
value of that because you're talking a lot of gold
in there.
Speaker 1 (11:57):
Then there's the Crown of Life, one of the three prizes.
There's never been a picture of it, only illustrations, So
this one is trickier. So is the Philosopher's Stone. No photos,
just descriptions and some artwork.
Speaker 6 (12:11):
Yeah, and they're saying that those are twenty five thousand
a piece of value. My guess is they probably use
a similar weight of gold and jewels on there. Yeah,
So my guess is you can reasonably say that all
of these are, you know, at least one hundred thousand
plus valued, you know, based just on their precious metal
(12:32):
and jewel content.
Speaker 1 (12:33):
But for sheer presence, no sword quest prize is equal
to the Sword of Ultimate Sorcery gilded steel but jeweled hilt.
In nineteen eighty two, Atari claimed it had a value
of fifty thousand dollars.
Speaker 6 (12:49):
And this is harder for me to come up with
because that's saying it's two times more valuable than the others.
But the others have a lot of gold in them,
and I guess and the hilt on that is solid gold.
That's probably the only way it gets to it. And
maybe it's seven or eight pounds of gold that gets
you to that price. So yeah, I mean, so that
sort can easily be a couple hundred thousand dollars in
(13:13):
precious materials if it's much heavier than the medallion or
the talisman. Yeah, so that easily could be a three
hundred thousand dollars piece at auction, just based off of
its precious metals and the fact that there's only one
made and it's gorgeous. You know the pictures, it looks gorgeous.
Speaker 1 (13:31):
But in collectibles, especially auctions, the story is everything, just
like at the Franklin Mint, And if an auction house
could tell the right story, the sky's the limit.
Speaker 6 (13:43):
I think this sword, if it was marketed correctly in
at one of the major auction houses that you know,
was part of a collection of either video game or
fantasy or period in time eighties, there's a lot of
ways they can cut it. I mean, I think that
sort could find itself north of three hundred thousand dollars,
(14:03):
and then there it could go much higher. I mean,
you know, pieces like they could go for five hundred thousand,
but you just never know who's going to come in,
how much interest they have in it. But you know
it's got so much more value than the precious metal content.
Speaker 1 (14:17):
Again big disclaimer, Lewis is making these estimates based on
what little is known about how the prizes were made
and what materials were used, along with their estimated size.
They could sell for that much or much less or
not at all, although that's a little hard to believe.
But in a way, the potential value of these items
(14:39):
speaks a little to whether they still exist. If someone
owned three items worth hundreds of thousands, why wouldn't they
have surfaced by now? Could they really be kept hidden
for this long? If they exchanged hands, could that be
kept quiet? It's possible, and it's possible if the items
held some sentimental value for the owner, which brings us
(15:02):
back to the Trammels, Aroma Espresso Bar and Casey Jones.
Compared to Starbucks, Aroma Espresso Bar doesn't have a huge
global footprint. It has about two hundred locations, most in Israel,
(15:23):
where it was founded in nineteen ninety four, along with
two in Ukraine and one in Miami, Florida. The rest
are in Canada. It's got more or less what you'd
expect from a coffeehouse.
Speaker 2 (15:34):
It's maybe not quite the scale of Starbucks, but consider
it like an Israeli exported Starbucks. They did baked goods,
they did coffee, they did sandwiches, salads. They're great if
you ever have the chance to go to an Aroma
Espresso bar. They're a bit pricey now, but if you
ever have the chance, they make a very good halloomy sandwich.
Speaker 1 (15:58):
Again, that's Casey Jones in twenty eleven. It was a
place for him to pick up a paycheck. Casey, you'll recall,
was working at an Aroma in Toronto for a spell.
Speaker 2 (16:08):
Probably about two two and a half years, cycling between
part time in full time. It was like a job
in my early twenties.
Speaker 4 (16:17):
It was just a gig.
Speaker 1 (16:20):
The two operators at that location were Mark and Gabe Tremmel,
a sibling business duo in their twenties who had taken
over in two thousand and nine.
Speaker 2 (16:29):
There were decent guys. I mean, there was some level
of grumbling from the staff sometimes because like, ah, Gabe,
the boss is really pushing us hard or whatever. But
I think those are just realities of operating a cafe.
Gab and Mark as two individuals, I always got a
good read from them.
Speaker 1 (16:48):
Casey was reading Ernest Klein's Ready Player one while working
at Aroma, not reading while literally working at Aroma during
his free time. It was a New York Times bestseller,
moving right roughly one point seven million copies, so he
was hardly alone. A lot of people had the book
in their hands. For many it might have been the
(17:09):
first time they'd ever heard of sword Quest, and then
some probably wondered if it was a real game or
if Ernest had just made it up. But Ready Player
one wasn't the only reason Casey was thinking about sword Quest.
Around the same time, a YouTuber known as the Angry
Video Game Nerd had done a retrospective of the series
and the missing prizes. Unlike the book, which didn't mention
(17:33):
the name Jack Tremmel, the nerd did, which gave Casey
more of a complete picture. Mark and Gabe, he discovered,
were Jack's grandsons. Their father, Sam Tremmel, had worked at
Atari under his father, and Jack had long been rumored
to have taken possession of the prizes. So Casey found
(17:54):
himself in proximity to two people who could possibly answer
the question that's been posed by gaming historians for decades.
When the sword Quest contest was canceled. Were the prizes
sold off for their material value or did Jack Tremmell
hang on to them. If Jack had taken possession of
the prizes, then surely his grandkids had seen them, had
(18:17):
picked up a sword of Ultimate Sorcery and waved its
blunted rounded edge around as children. As we've told you,
the Trammel's don't discuss it, but Casey wasn't a nosy journalist.
He was just making conversation in a coffee shop. That's
kind of what they're made for. So Casey posed the
question to Gabe Tremmel. Gabe didn't walk away, he didn't
(18:41):
say no comment. He started laughing, and then he said this.
Speaker 2 (18:46):
There was very little hesitation. He's like, oh, yeah, I've
seen those. Yeah, he saw them, presumably at his grandpa's place,
Jack Tremmell's place. I can't confirm. This was just a
conversation that I had like thirteen years ago, so I
can't confirm full veracity, details or anything. But he did
say he was able to see them at Jack Tremmel's place,
(19:07):
either at his personal home or in his office somewhere
I don't know.
Speaker 1 (19:11):
According to Casey, Gabe then offered an even more astounding detail.
Speaker 2 (19:16):
And Gabe also claimed that he had had his picture
taken with two of the artifacts. I don't remember exactly
which two they were. I want to say it was
the crown and the sword. I might be getting that
wrong because I don't recall which of the artifacts were
lost and which ones were paid out to the winners.
(19:37):
But Gabe claimed very fondly like, oh, yeah, no, I
have a picture of me wearing these. He didn't show
me the picture. Presumably it was on film, and really
that was it. Based off of that interaction, my understanding
was that at some point in the intervening years after
the end of the sword Quest contest, that those artifacts
(19:58):
found their way in to Jack Tremmel's hands, or you know,
he just took pictures of them with his grandson.
Speaker 1 (20:05):
You know.
Speaker 2 (20:05):
Maybe he had them in a safety deposit box, maybe
he had them in a private residence. I don't know,
but I can at least say he had them at
one point, or he had access to them at one
point and he was sharing enough with that access to
let his grandkid get a funny picture with it. But
unfortunately I've never seen the picture.
Speaker 1 (20:26):
Somewhere in the possessions of Gabe Trammel apparently lurked a
photo of Gabe sporting a crown and waving a sword.
Not a crown or a sword, but the crown and
the sword. But there's a hiccup here. If someone asks
you about an urban legend your family was allegedly involved in,
maybe your tendency would be to joke about it. Oh, sure,
(20:49):
my grandfather was in the CIA, that sort of thing.
So we asked Casey, was there any chance Gabe was
just kidding around.
Speaker 4 (20:57):
It's possible.
Speaker 2 (20:59):
It seemed too specific to just be a joke. Maybe
he was just pulling my leg because I was asking
these directed questions. It's possible he was joking around or
exaggerating the story. But you know, when you work at
a cafe with a manager, you get a sense of
the way that they speak, and you know they're different tones.
(21:21):
So I was familiar with Gabe's joking tone as well
as his, you know, serious manager boss tones, and I
didn't peg it as a joke. I pegged it as
him telling the truth at the time. Whether or not
I was correct, who knows.
Speaker 1 (21:36):
To the best of Casey's recollection, he brought up sword
Quest once or twice more to Gabe, but by this
point Gabe seemed to have grown reluctant to discuss it
any further. It wouldn't be an ongoing topic of conversation.
Speaker 2 (21:50):
When I sensed that he put the brakes on the story,
I sensed that it may have been because, oh, this
is actually getting into some stuff that he doesn't want
to speak about. Out in a public space with other
people sitting at the bar overhearing him, or other people
working overhearing him. And that was really the end of it.
When I started digging into it more, I got a
sense that he started realizing I was asking some very
(22:14):
directed questions, and he started to shy away from the
subject a little bit.
Speaker 4 (22:19):
There are a.
Speaker 1 (22:20):
Lot of unknowns here. When exactly did Gabe take the
photo as a child or more recently.
Speaker 2 (22:27):
I got the sense that it was fairly recent when
the photo was taken. Unfortunately, I don't have anything I
can go back to to like pinpoint that it might
just be my faulty memory. It may have been when
he was young, it may have been when he was
an adult. I got the sense at the time that
it was within the last five years or something, so
that would have placed it between two thousand and five
(22:49):
and twenty ten.
Speaker 1 (22:50):
Gabe had no reason to lie about the photo, nor
does Casey. He just happened to be in the vicinity
of Gabe and armed with a little bit of knowledge
when some wordquest trivia landed in his lap Mark. Gabe
operated the Aroma location through twenty thirteen and then went
on to different business pursuits. Casey left around the same time.
(23:13):
We asked if there were any other employees who may
have heard the story to corroborate it. Casey gave us
two names. One doesn't recall anything about it. The other
former employee answered our request for a comment by asking
who gave you my name and then never responded again.
Speaker 4 (23:31):
This one knows something. I can feel it. It's no use, Tour.
Speaker 5 (23:36):
He'd sooner lop off his tongue than reveal his secrets.
Speaker 4 (23:40):
Fine by me. Better still, we could lop off his head.
Tor No, fine, then we say he simply did not
respond to a request for comment.
Speaker 1 (23:51):
We did, of course, contact Mark Tremmel. Though he wasn't
the one who told Casey the story of the prizes,
it seems likely that he'd know a thing or two
about it.
Speaker 2 (24:01):
Gabe and Mark were quite proud of that fun little
trivia tidbit that oh yeah, I'm you know, my granddad
was the Tari guy. And when I asked them about
the artifacts, they did claim to have seen them. I
believe Mark confirmed. I don't remember specifically, but I do
know at the very least that Gabe told me the
story that he has been in the same room with
(24:24):
the artifacts and has had his picture taken with them.
Speaker 1 (24:27):
But Mark didn't respond. The Tremmel cone of silence persisted
and Gabe, well, we can't ask Gabe. Unfortunately, in twenty sixteen,
Gabe Tremmeel passed away at the age of thirty two
while living in New York City. According to the United
States Attorney's Office in the Southern District of New York,
a medical doctor and graduate student was convicted of selling
(24:50):
Gabe Tremmel a lethal dose of fentanyl, a dangerous opioid.
If there is a photo of Gabe posing with sword
Quest prizes, we don't know if anyone has it, or
if anyone knows where it could be. And assuming Jack
had those prizes circa twenty eleven, Jack's death in twenty
twelve would have placed them in other hands. Of course,
(25:13):
this is speculation. We can't say, nor do we say
the Trammels are in possession of the remaining sword Quest prizes.
But like the game itself, it's become a part of
the mythology of Atari and one no Tremmel family member
seems willing to dispel. They're under no obligation to, of course,
(25:34):
but it would be a simple way of getting people
to stop asking you about it. If Jack did keep
the prizes, Casey believes it would be symbolic a trophy
representing Jack Tremmel on top of Atari, a pioneer of
personal computing.
Speaker 2 (25:50):
Oh yeah, they'd be a hell of a nice keepsake
of his victory and his battles to become the King
of Atari.
Speaker 1 (25:58):
If the King of Atari had the treasures, then they
might wind up where most treasures do, inside the hallowed
halls of a museum.
Speaker 5 (26:14):
We're heading into one of our collection storage areas here
at the museum.
Speaker 4 (26:25):
We have a.
Speaker 5 (26:25):
Keypad and the security card swape that I needed to
do to get into this area. We're walking through an
area that focuses on our arcade conservation. We're standing in
a room that has an enormous amount of video games
and collections objects.
Speaker 1 (26:46):
We're in Rochester, New York. It's an upstate community known
for its medical university and for pop culture fans for
being host to the Strong Museum of Play which is
a massive collection of play things that fills almost four
hundred thousand square feet and welcomes a half million visitors
every year. Think of it like the world's biggest toy store,
(27:08):
only it spans generations. Everything is here original barbie'es, Gi Joe's,
and of course a deep collection of the electronic toy
that's dominated for decades, the video game. The Museum is
in Rochester because Rochester was once the home of Margaret
Wood very Strong, a collector of toys and dolls and
(27:31):
a lot of everything, whose collection grew so large her
home became something of a dollhouse. When she died in
nineteen sixty nine, she willed her belongings to a museum
that eventually became her namesake, The Strong in nineteen eighty two.
And while the Strong initially exhibited a lot of things,
it was toys that became the focal point.
Speaker 5 (27:53):
And so we're standing in front of this massive television
because we've recreated Home Pong as a massive interactive that
people can play here at the museum. And so I'm
using an oversized knob on a giant console. Oh and
(28:20):
they got me.
Speaker 1 (28:22):
That's Jeremy Saucier. Jeremy is the assistant vice president for
Interpretation and Electronic Games at the Strong. He has a
PhD in history from the University of Rochester. Games are
his relics, his barometer for our shared leisure habits. His
focus is the International Center for the History of Electronic Games,
(28:44):
a collection totaling around sixty thousand items and growing all
the time. This stuff is well loved. You can see
cigarette burns and handprints on some of the arcade machines,
the evidence of the gamer who spent countless hours chasing
pac Man.
Speaker 5 (29:00):
So just really thousands and thousands. We have the most
comprehensive collection of play things but also video games anywhere
in the world. So you're standing in part of that collection.
But Atari is one of the first companies where this
is what they're doing. They're making video games. You know,
even Nintendo as a playing card company, Kaliko was a
(29:23):
leather company. And so you know, when I think about
Atari today, I think it's a combination of you have
a generation of people who were introduced to video games
through Atari, and I think they understand that on some
level that that was important. And Atari plays an important
(29:45):
role in that They're not the only ones, but they
play a very important role. And you know, just like
you know, you wouldn't have Tesla today if you didn't
have Ford and GM, well, you wouldn't have Sony. You
wouldn't have Microsoft in the Xbox if you didn't have Atari. First.
Speaker 1 (30:05):
The Strong's Atari holdings number well over nine hundred items, consoles, joysticks, games, manuals,
original art, and naturally the sword Quest titles. But no,
not the prizes. To get the obvious question out of
the way.
Speaker 5 (30:20):
I mean, I can say for sure that we do
not have them.
Speaker 1 (30:24):
But there are other treasures here.
Speaker 5 (30:26):
Because I'm going to handle a couple of objects here
I'm going to put some gloves on. Is that we're
standing in front of a KRT curator's cart that has
a couple of the sword Quest games on it, and
a September October nineteen eighty two issue of Atari Age,
(30:49):
which was a publication that was sent to members of
Atari's clubs with jewels encrusted on them worth many thousands
of dollars gold objects. And so this contest is really
at the height of Atari's power. Some would say it's
(31:12):
at the height of Atari's hubris, because when the contest starts,
it's nineteen eighty two, right, So if we open up,
we're looking at this cover of Atari Age, and so
this is September October of nineteen eighty two, and even
right on the cover is this wonderful artwork that are
showing the characters from the sword Quest games. And if
(31:36):
I open this up, there is a two page spread
promoting this contest. Sword Quest you can win fabulous prizes
by solving the mysteries of four new cartridges.
Speaker 1 (31:54):
Part of the Strong's Atari collection is a lot of paperwork,
game ideas, design ideas. There's even a map chest full
of original art. But there's no slip of paper that
traces where those items went, no invoice, no destroy upon receipts.
Smoking Gun Atari was a poor curator of its own history.
(32:15):
The items arrive piecemeal from employees or donors, and while
there are still items to be inventoried, there's no sign
any of it holds the clue.
Speaker 5 (32:25):
But also it is just a turn of history like
they could have very easily have been thrown away, and
a lot of this history is gone for the Strong.
Speaker 1 (32:34):
Gaming isn't a commercial endeavor. If they get their hands
on a rare cartridge or console, or even an original microchip,
it's cataloged and like a puzzle piece, snapped into place
wherever it fits in gaming history. And while Jeremy's Landscape
is pretty vast. Everything from early handheld games to Nintendo
systems to Sony PlayStations are here. He's definitely aware of
(32:58):
sword Quest, one of the biggest myths in gaming history,
treasures that, if they were ever discovered, might one day
wind up here.
Speaker 5 (33:08):
What's fascinating about these prizes, you know, is just there's
so much speculation about it. It's been rumored that one
of them was actually melted down and sold. I mean,
obviously the person who wins it can do what they
want with it. And if I was a college student
trying to pay debt, then I might be hawking my
gold jewelry as well, you know. But as artifacts that
(33:32):
help tell this larger story and represent a time in
video games where you're basically, you know, minting these fantastic
gold artifacts, I think it'd be wonderful to have them,
you know. It almost reminds me of the sort of
Gilded Age.
Speaker 1 (33:48):
Right to Jeremy, the prizes represent something other than mastering
a difficult video game. They're emblematic of Atari's success, and
maybe they're hubris.
Speaker 5 (34:01):
You're these artifacts that kind of represent the height of
the video game industry, the height of Atari that they
would have invested in a contest like this, But Atari
itself cracked. Atari itself crumbled. Though they're coming back now
and they're doing things today. But yes, as a historian,
as curators, we'd obviously love to see some of these things.
Speaker 1 (34:26):
In some ways, Atari is like a fallen civilization, once
on top of the world, now a distant second to
the xboxes and immersive gaming world of today. Like any
other relic, the prizes, were they to surface, could be
sold for Lewis Checchia amounts of money. It's a problem
Jeremy runs into when adding to the strongest collection, a
(34:49):
problem every museum runs into. Sooner or later that Picasso
may not be available because someone paid a fortune for it.
So it may be hard to conceive of the prizes
being on public display one day for all to see.
That can happen. Collectors can loan out art or collectibles,
(35:10):
but so far the sword Quest stash has not been
for public consumption. But it's certainly possible that someone listening
does know where they are, and maybe at some point
they'll consider the value of snapping that piece into the
overall puzzle.
Speaker 5 (35:28):
Yeah, I mean it's difficult, you know. On the one hand,
I can see that if these things do exist, whoever
might have them. I mean, there's a chance that they
don't even know that they have these sorts of things.
It really is, you know, that's a possibility too. There's
a community of people who would love to find out
(35:51):
that these things exist, and even more they'd love to
see them. So the argument to me is more I
think along the lines of that these are potentially artifacts
from a community of gamers, a community that's heavily invested
in the history of Atari, in the history of video games,
(36:14):
and so I think the argument is that, you know,
if you possibly can, it'd be great to share that history,
even if it's just acknowledging that they exist, even if
it's acknowledging that something happened to them and that there's
some evidence of that that helps to put the mystery
to rest.
Speaker 1 (36:34):
Today, Atari is in Paris, well sort of. The video
game company which pioneered home gaming, now has offices in
New York and France. After changing hands a few times
since the Jack Tremmel days, it wound up with a
company named Infograms, a mix of the French words informatique
(36:56):
and program. Atari now takes a more circuitous route to
its branding. A few years ago, they announced plans to
license the Atari name to backers of a hotel in
Las Vegas. The Atari Hotel would be a giant, gaudy
ode to retro gaming, with themed rooms and plenty of joysticks.
(37:16):
That hasn't broken ground yet. What has materialized is an
Atari twenty six hundred plus retro console, which was released
at the end of twenty twenty three and delivers a
dose of nostalgia. It looks virtually identical to the old
twenty six hundred, right down to the wood grain finish.
It can play original Atari cartridges, or you can select
(37:38):
from some included games on a ten to one cart
Atari did something else too. In twenty twenty two, they
released Atari fifty, a software program celebrating the company's fiftieth anniversary,
part game and part documentary. It included something gamers have
been waiting for since the nineteen eighties, a fully finished,
(38:00):
fully playable version of air World, the fourth and never
released game in the sword Quest series. This isn't the
original version as envisioned by sword Quest's creator Todd Frye.
It's more of an homage to that idea, but it
is an official release, and it does make for one
less missing treasure in this story. But there was no
(38:23):
fourth comic from DC, and therefore no conclusion to the
sword Quest saga. That's fitting since the one in the
real world is still open ended too. Those prizes could
have been destroyed for their material value decades ago. If
that's true, then the chalice is the only one that survived,
(38:43):
and may be all the more valuable for it. There
are three distinct perspectives here. The collector with deep pockets
who wants to look at video game treasure in their
basement trophy room, the archivist who wouldn't mind seeing them
help to tell the story of gaming's ascendants from a
seedier side of pop culture to a legitimate art form.
(39:06):
And a family who may now consider the prizes to
be a kind of heirloom, unwilling to give the public
a glimpse treasures that have taken on a more personal meaning.
All of these are valid. The only thing we can
say with certainty is that sword Quest is a part
of a shared cultural history. The contest anticipated the multimedia
(39:28):
explosion that would arrive in the coming decades, where giant
conglomerates use all of their assets for one unified sales pitch.
When Warner Brothers wanted to raise awareness of Barbie, they
draped all of their reality television in pink. When Warner
Communications wanted to promote sword Quest, they recruited all of
(39:48):
their companies of that era to the task. Atari the
Franklin Mint DC comics. It was a radical innovation caught
in the middle of a transition in gaming that was
termined for cost. Tor and Tara, the hero and heroine
of the story, were effectively laid off before their mission
was complete, and most of their expected rewards are still
(40:12):
unaccounted for. But there's a reason they call it the
hero's journey and not the hero's destination, even though it
was never completed. Without sword Quest, we wouldn't have the
pioneers of competitive gaming, people like Stephen Bell, Jackie Custer,
Burt Wardahl, and Michael Rideout. Today's esports stars play for millions.
(40:34):
They played for some fleeting glory and a cool sword.
Those prizes may be gone, but their memories remain of
long hours spent mastering games. Before gaming was truly mainstream,
sword Quest was something increasingly rare these days, a true original,
a spark for imagination, decades later, There's still never been
(40:59):
anything quite like it.
Speaker 3 (41:01):
The sword eludes us. Tara, the one who wields it,
will not step forward.
Speaker 4 (41:05):
Perhaps they fear harassment or robbery. Perhaps, but can something
be taken that belongs to the people? What do you mean, Torque?
Speaker 3 (41:16):
Someone may be able to put their hands on its hilt,
to keep it under glass, Yet it represents so much more,
a shared history.
Speaker 4 (41:23):
Perhaps one day all can see it, perhaps, or perhaps
it's gone forever. What now, sister, What of our story?
Speaker 3 (41:33):
Now?
Speaker 4 (41:34):
Now we find tyrann Us and vanquish him another way,
But how now we write our own ending? Come on,
let's go adventuring.
Speaker 1 (41:53):
The Legend of sword Quest is a production of iHeart
Podcasts and School of Humans. This episode was written by
Jake Rawson and hosted by Jamie Loftus producers are Miranda
Hawkins and Josh Fisher. Executive producers are Virginia Prescott, L. C. Crowley,
Brandon Barr, and Jason English.
Speaker 4 (42:10):
Our show editor is Mary Doo.
Speaker 1 (42:12):
Audio engineering by Graham Gibson, Research and fact checking by
Austin Thompson and Jake Rosson.
Speaker 4 (42:19):
Original score by Jesse Niswanger. This episode was sound designed
by Josh Fisher.
Speaker 1 (42:24):
Mixing and mastering by Miranda Hawkins. Show logo by Lucy Quintonia.
Voices in this episode are provided by Haley Ellman and
Graham Parker.
One of the biggest publishing success stories of the twenty
tens was Ready Player One. The book, which came out
in twenty eleven, tells the story of Wade Watts, a
gamer living in a dystopian future who tries to find
real world treasure hidden by an eccentric game designer named
James Halliday. Deciphering the game means uncovering the location of
(00:25):
Halliday's entire fortune. This probably sounds familiar. The novel's author,
Ernest Klein, spells it out on page forty two when
Wade is asked if he recognizes an old Atari game
series called sword Quest. Wade not only recognizes it, he
can confirm the name of all four games, earth World, Fireworld,
(00:48):
water World, and Airworld, and all their prizes the Talisman,
the Chalice, the Crown, the Philosopher's Stone, and the Sword
of All Time to miss Sorcery. Wade thinks Halliday took
inspiration from the sword Quest series. Obviously, so did Ernest Klein,
(01:08):
and he earned a treasure of sorts too. It's all
pretty meta. Ready Player One was the subject of a
bidding war for publication rights. It also got Klein a
movie deal. Steven Spielberg directed the film adaptation, which came
out in twenty eighteen. Both the movie and the book
were widely but not universally loved. There was a podcast
(01:31):
that reviewed the book in excruciating detail. The title was
three hundred and seventy two pages will Never Get Back,
so you can probably guess how the hosts felt about it.
But nonetheless, Ready Player one was the kind of cultural
sensation Atari had hoped sword Quest would be a multi
media phenomenon, and no, Ernest Klein didn't wind up locating
(01:54):
the sword Quest prizes and buying them for himself, at
least we don't think he did. He's a Bout to
the future fan, so he bought a Dolorian instead. Even
though that's not where we're going with this, Ernest is
still somewhat responsible for what happens in this saga. The
concluding chapter.
Speaker 2 (02:12):
The Treasures, the Lost Treasure of sword Quest.
Speaker 1 (02:16):
That's Casey Jones. Casey works in video editing now, but
back when Ready Player one came out in twenty eleven,
Casey was employed at a coffee shop.
Speaker 2 (02:26):
So I'll back up again in two thousand and nine
twenty ten, abouts I worked at a cafe in Toronto, Ontario, Canada.
Who is a franchise location of Aroma Espresso Bars, an
Israeli chain, and it was owned and operated by one
Gabe Tremmeel, as well as his younger brother, Mark Tremmel.
(02:51):
He was assistant manager or something like that supervisor.
Speaker 1 (02:55):
Aroma had a few dozen locations in Canada. Casey worked
at one in Toronto. Casey is also a gamer, and
he happened to pick up the book everyone was talking
about Ready Player one, and of course he saw the
mention of sword Quest, and then Casey realized something. The
owners of the bar, brothers Gabe and Mark Tremmel, had
(03:17):
the same last name as Jack Tremmeil, the former owner
of Atari. Gabe and Mark were Jack's grandsons, and so
one day Casey decided to casually bring up those missing prizes.
It's a question no member of the Trammel family has
ever publicly addressed, and one they're still unwilling to comment on.
(03:38):
When the contest was canceled and the three remaining prizes
went unawarded, were the treasures destroyed or did they wind
up in the possession of the family. Atari historians have
long wanted to find out we wanted to find out
and Casey, well, Casey just asked.
Speaker 2 (03:55):
So I asked Gabe about the history, like, since he
was related to Jack Tremmel, did he ever hear anything
about this story, about these these lost artifacts of the
sword Quest and sweet steaks or contests that they were
doing but never finished.
Speaker 1 (04:13):
And then Gabe very matter of factly turned this story
upside down. For iHeartRadio, this is the legend of sword Quest.
I'm your host, Jamie Loftist, and this is the eighth
and final episode, Endgame.
Speaker 3 (04:36):
I've been thinking, sister yes Tor, about abinging our parents'
death at the hand of King taran Us.
Speaker 4 (04:43):
God.
Speaker 3 (04:44):
Sure, but I was also thinking about what else we
could do if we found the Sword of Ultimate Sorcery.
Speaker 4 (04:50):
Lop off that demon's head.
Speaker 3 (04:52):
Yeah, absolutely, and then you know, maybe we.
Speaker 4 (04:55):
Sell it, sell it.
Speaker 3 (04:57):
What I mean, a lot of collectors would pay good
money for this thing, Tor.
Speaker 5 (05:02):
The sword is for vengeance, for honor, not for commerce.
Speaker 3 (05:06):
Right, No, totally, but I'm just saying, if we find it, maybe.
Speaker 4 (05:11):
We should at least get it appraised.
Speaker 1 (05:15):
In telling the story of sword Quest, you eventually come
to a fork in the road Bear left, and you
can explore the enigma of the contest and the fate
of the prizes, which have been presumed missing for nearly
four decades bear right, and you can have a conversation
about their actual material value, not necessarily their historical significance.
(05:37):
Think of the ruby slippers from The Wizard of Oz.
They're part of film history by association. They have a
kind of magic, but they're also a commodity. One pair,
and yes, there are several pairs sold for over six
hundred thousand dollars back in twenty eleven. Like the sword
Quest prizes, other pairs have gone missing, which oddly makes
(05:59):
them the more valued and appreciated. So what would it
really mean to find these pieces of video game lore
from a monetary perspective, It depends on who you ask.
Speaker 6 (06:10):
Yeah, exactly, No, it looks fantastic, you know, and it's beautiful,
and probably that's the most expensive because as sword and
fantasy really as the ultimate I mean, I always think anyway,
you're out in the action, you're battling here, you're slaying
the dragon.
Speaker 4 (06:24):
Right.
Speaker 1 (06:25):
That's Lewis Checchia. Lewis is what you'd call uniquely qualified
to offer an opinion about the actual value of these prizes.
Today he's a part time jewelry appraiser, but more than that,
he once worked at the Franklin Mint, the collectibles company
that made the treasures.
Speaker 6 (06:43):
We were artisans, so you know, we did all sculptures,
We did dicast cars, we did numismatics, we did stamps,
we did leather bound books, dolls, pocket knives, pocket watches,
you name it. And really in the business world, people
could come to us with whatever and we could develop it.
And it sounds like that's what Attari really did.
Speaker 1 (07:05):
No, he didn't have a hand in their creation. Lewis
didn't arrive at the Mint until nineteen ninety two when
he was an intern. That's a full decade after the
prizes were produced. Later, he became a development manager for
their mid precision models think mini cars. Lewis also worked
with the airs of celebrities like John Wayne and Elvis
(07:26):
Presley to make sure the license collectibles were on target.
In doing so, Lewis realized the Mint wasn't just selling collectibles.
Speaker 6 (07:36):
We've done some amazing pieces of artwork for the Royal
House of Faberge where we worked with the licensers there.
We've worked with Ferrari and Lamborghini and Rolls Royce, and
you know, each time I had to really visit those
companies and it really helped drive home that you know,
Franklin really wasn't selling products, they were selling experiences. So
(07:59):
the the amount of work that we did to reproduce
something and to capture the spirit of John Wayne and
a John Wayne rifle, or to capture the exotic feeling
the Ferrari or Lamborghini quintash was really phenomenal because you know,
we worked directly with the people that developed them.
Speaker 1 (08:17):
Even though he didn't personally encrust the chalice with some jewels,
Lewis understands how the sausage was made at the mint,
which is important when you're trying to appraise items that
you can't physically hold in your hand. And while you
may think something related to gaming wouldn't be in the
same arena as movie props or comics or antiques, you'd
be wrong. Video game collecting exploded during the coronavirus pandemic,
(08:43):
as did most other collectibles. Rare copies of video games
still in their plastic shrink wrap now fetch thousands, tens
of thousands, and even millions of dollars. A copy of
Nintendo's Super Mario Brothers, looking like it was just pulled
off a peg at Toys r Us sold for two
million dollars. A copy of the ultra rare Atari game
(09:05):
Air Raid sold for thirty three thousand dollars thanks to
having a complete box and manual, and an original wooden
prototype of a home version of the classic Atari game Pong,
which helped launch the home gaming industry, sold for two
hundred and seventy thousand dollars in twenty twenty two. But
unlike movies, which have props and costumes, games are more ethereal.
(09:31):
Once you go through consoles and cartridges, there's not a
whole lot left. Sword Quest is one of the few
times actual tangible gaming treasures were created, and they come
with an incredible mythology surrounding them. If they ever did surface,
then it's possible the owner could strike gold that auctioned.
(09:51):
Remember the first prize, the talisman was awarded to Stephen Bell.
Stephen sold it off relatively quickly to purchase his Pontiac Fear.
He kept a tiny miniature sword from it that was
later stolen from his bedroom. The culprit, possibly an ex girlfriend.
But let's say it hadn't been dismantled for material, or
(10:13):
let's say the jeweler that bought it from Stephen kept
it intact. How much would it be worth today, we
asked Lewis. Oh. Lewis, by the way, operates an animal
rescue in Philadelphia, Pennsylvania. It's Morris Animal Refuge, and they're
devoted to finding good homes for pets in need of them.
Lewis was good enough to try and appraise some invisible treasures,
(10:35):
so we wanted to make sure to mention his work there.
But yeah, back to the talisman, which may have been
destroyed in nineteen eighty three but still exists in photos.
Lewis believes that if the medallion was worth twenty five
thousand dollars in nineteen eighty two, it probably had around
sixty three ounces of gold given the market rate at
the time, so.
Speaker 6 (10:56):
That I ambul it without the stone, without the sword,
it would probably be north of you know, definitely the
value of gold in there. If it is eighteen care gold,
probably be in the north of one hundred thousand.
Speaker 1 (11:08):
The only other prize to be awarded was the chalice,
which contest winner Michael Rideout took home in nineteen eighty
four after being kept waiting for a few months, and
right now it's the only known surviving prize of the
entire contest. Michael Rideout is still believed to be in
possession of it, but he wouldn't confirm that with us,
So we're left to wonder if the base of the
(11:30):
chalice is hollow, which makes a difference in its value.
Speaker 6 (11:35):
Without the weight, it would be really difficult from that standpoint.
But I mean that is a one off, you know,
a beautiful chalice, and with the atari, I mean that
should be well north of one hundred thousand dollars.
Speaker 1 (11:46):
But that's if the base of the chalice is hollow,
if it's actual solid gold.
Speaker 6 (11:51):
If it was solid gold, it could infect double the
value of that because you're talking a lot of gold
in there.
Speaker 1 (11:57):
Then there's the Crown of Life, one of the three prizes.
There's never been a picture of it, only illustrations, So
this one is trickier. So is the Philosopher's Stone. No photos,
just descriptions and some artwork.
Speaker 6 (12:11):
Yeah, and they're saying that those are twenty five thousand
a piece of value. My guess is they probably use
a similar weight of gold and jewels on there. Yeah,
So my guess is you can reasonably say that all
of these are, you know, at least one hundred thousand
plus valued, you know, based just on their precious metal
(12:32):
and jewel content.
Speaker 1 (12:33):
But for sheer presence, no sword quest prize is equal
to the Sword of Ultimate Sorcery gilded steel but jeweled hilt.
In nineteen eighty two, Atari claimed it had a value
of fifty thousand dollars.
Speaker 6 (12:49):
And this is harder for me to come up with
because that's saying it's two times more valuable than the others.
But the others have a lot of gold in them,
and I guess and the hilt on that is solid gold.
That's probably the only way it gets to it. And
maybe it's seven or eight pounds of gold that gets
you to that price. So yeah, I mean, so that
sort can easily be a couple hundred thousand dollars in
(13:13):
precious materials if it's much heavier than the medallion or
the talisman. Yeah, so that easily could be a three
hundred thousand dollars piece at auction, just based off of
its precious metals and the fact that there's only one
made and it's gorgeous. You know the pictures, it looks gorgeous.
Speaker 1 (13:31):
But in collectibles, especially auctions, the story is everything, just
like at the Franklin Mint, And if an auction house
could tell the right story, the sky's the limit.
Speaker 6 (13:43):
I think this sword, if it was marketed correctly in
at one of the major auction houses that you know,
was part of a collection of either video game or
fantasy or period in time eighties, there's a lot of
ways they can cut it. I mean, I think that
sort could find itself north of three hundred thousand dollars,
(14:03):
and then there it could go much higher. I mean,
you know, pieces like they could go for five hundred thousand,
but you just never know who's going to come in,
how much interest they have in it. But you know
it's got so much more value than the precious metal content.
Speaker 1 (14:17):
Again big disclaimer, Lewis is making these estimates based on
what little is known about how the prizes were made
and what materials were used, along with their estimated size.
They could sell for that much or much less or
not at all, although that's a little hard to believe.
But in a way, the potential value of these items
(14:39):
speaks a little to whether they still exist. If someone
owned three items worth hundreds of thousands, why wouldn't they
have surfaced by now? Could they really be kept hidden
for this long? If they exchanged hands, could that be
kept quiet? It's possible, and it's possible if the items
held some sentimental value for the owner, which brings us
(15:02):
back to the Trammels, Aroma Espresso Bar and Casey Jones.
Compared to Starbucks, Aroma Espresso Bar doesn't have a huge
global footprint. It has about two hundred locations, most in Israel,
(15:23):
where it was founded in nineteen ninety four, along with
two in Ukraine and one in Miami, Florida. The rest
are in Canada. It's got more or less what you'd
expect from a coffeehouse.
Speaker 2 (15:34):
It's maybe not quite the scale of Starbucks, but consider
it like an Israeli exported Starbucks. They did baked goods,
they did coffee, they did sandwiches, salads. They're great if
you ever have the chance to go to an Aroma
Espresso bar. They're a bit pricey now, but if you
ever have the chance, they make a very good halloomy sandwich.
Speaker 1 (15:58):
Again, that's Casey Jones in twenty eleven. It was a
place for him to pick up a paycheck. Casey, you'll recall,
was working at an Aroma in Toronto for a spell.
Speaker 2 (16:08):
Probably about two two and a half years, cycling between
part time in full time. It was like a job
in my early twenties.
Speaker 4 (16:17):
It was just a gig.
Speaker 1 (16:20):
The two operators at that location were Mark and Gabe Tremmel,
a sibling business duo in their twenties who had taken
over in two thousand and nine.
Speaker 2 (16:29):
There were decent guys. I mean, there was some level
of grumbling from the staff sometimes because like, ah, Gabe,
the boss is really pushing us hard or whatever. But
I think those are just realities of operating a cafe.
Gab and Mark as two individuals, I always got a
good read from them.
Speaker 1 (16:48):
Casey was reading Ernest Klein's Ready Player one while working
at Aroma, not reading while literally working at Aroma during
his free time. It was a New York Times bestseller,
moving right roughly one point seven million copies, so he
was hardly alone. A lot of people had the book
in their hands. For many it might have been the
(17:09):
first time they'd ever heard of sword Quest, and then
some probably wondered if it was a real game or
if Ernest had just made it up. But Ready Player
one wasn't the only reason Casey was thinking about sword Quest.
Around the same time, a YouTuber known as the Angry
Video Game Nerd had done a retrospective of the series
and the missing prizes. Unlike the book, which didn't mention
(17:33):
the name Jack Tremmel, the nerd did, which gave Casey
more of a complete picture. Mark and Gabe, he discovered,
were Jack's grandsons. Their father, Sam Tremmel, had worked at
Atari under his father, and Jack had long been rumored
to have taken possession of the prizes. So Casey found
(17:54):
himself in proximity to two people who could possibly answer
the question that's been posed by gaming historians for decades.
When the sword Quest contest was canceled. Were the prizes
sold off for their material value or did Jack Tremmell
hang on to them. If Jack had taken possession of
the prizes, then surely his grandkids had seen them, had
(18:17):
picked up a sword of Ultimate Sorcery and waved its
blunted rounded edge around as children. As we've told you,
the Trammel's don't discuss it, but Casey wasn't a nosy journalist.
He was just making conversation in a coffee shop. That's
kind of what they're made for. So Casey posed the
question to Gabe Tremmel. Gabe didn't walk away, he didn't
(18:41):
say no comment. He started laughing, and then he said this.
Speaker 2 (18:46):
There was very little hesitation. He's like, oh, yeah, I've
seen those. Yeah, he saw them, presumably at his grandpa's place,
Jack Tremmell's place. I can't confirm. This was just a
conversation that I had like thirteen years ago, so I
can't confirm full veracity, details or anything. But he did
say he was able to see them at Jack Tremmel's place,
(19:07):
either at his personal home or in his office somewhere
I don't know.
Speaker 1 (19:11):
According to Casey, Gabe then offered an even more astounding detail.
Speaker 2 (19:16):
And Gabe also claimed that he had had his picture
taken with two of the artifacts. I don't remember exactly
which two they were. I want to say it was
the crown and the sword. I might be getting that
wrong because I don't recall which of the artifacts were
lost and which ones were paid out to the winners.
(19:37):
But Gabe claimed very fondly like, oh, yeah, no, I
have a picture of me wearing these. He didn't show
me the picture. Presumably it was on film, and really
that was it. Based off of that interaction, my understanding
was that at some point in the intervening years after
the end of the sword Quest contest, that those artifacts
(19:58):
found their way in to Jack Tremmel's hands, or you know,
he just took pictures of them with his grandson.
Speaker 1 (20:05):
You know.
Speaker 2 (20:05):
Maybe he had them in a safety deposit box, maybe
he had them in a private residence. I don't know,
but I can at least say he had them at
one point, or he had access to them at one
point and he was sharing enough with that access to
let his grandkid get a funny picture with it. But
unfortunately I've never seen the picture.
Speaker 1 (20:26):
Somewhere in the possessions of Gabe Trammel apparently lurked a
photo of Gabe sporting a crown and waving a sword.
Not a crown or a sword, but the crown and
the sword. But there's a hiccup here. If someone asks
you about an urban legend your family was allegedly involved in,
maybe your tendency would be to joke about it. Oh, sure,
(20:49):
my grandfather was in the CIA, that sort of thing.
So we asked Casey, was there any chance Gabe was
just kidding around.
Speaker 4 (20:57):
It's possible.
Speaker 2 (20:59):
It seemed too specific to just be a joke. Maybe
he was just pulling my leg because I was asking
these directed questions. It's possible he was joking around or
exaggerating the story. But you know, when you work at
a cafe with a manager, you get a sense of
the way that they speak, and you know they're different tones.
(21:21):
So I was familiar with Gabe's joking tone as well
as his, you know, serious manager boss tones, and I
didn't peg it as a joke. I pegged it as
him telling the truth at the time. Whether or not
I was correct, who knows.
Speaker 1 (21:36):
To the best of Casey's recollection, he brought up sword
Quest once or twice more to Gabe, but by this
point Gabe seemed to have grown reluctant to discuss it
any further. It wouldn't be an ongoing topic of conversation.
Speaker 2 (21:50):
When I sensed that he put the brakes on the story,
I sensed that it may have been because, oh, this
is actually getting into some stuff that he doesn't want
to speak about. Out in a public space with other
people sitting at the bar overhearing him, or other people
working overhearing him. And that was really the end of it.
When I started digging into it more, I got a
sense that he started realizing I was asking some very
(22:14):
directed questions, and he started to shy away from the
subject a little bit.
Speaker 4 (22:19):
There are a.
Speaker 1 (22:20):
Lot of unknowns here. When exactly did Gabe take the
photo as a child or more recently.
Speaker 2 (22:27):
I got the sense that it was fairly recent when
the photo was taken. Unfortunately, I don't have anything I
can go back to to like pinpoint that it might
just be my faulty memory. It may have been when
he was young, it may have been when he was
an adult. I got the sense at the time that
it was within the last five years or something, so
that would have placed it between two thousand and five
(22:49):
and twenty ten.
Speaker 1 (22:50):
Gabe had no reason to lie about the photo, nor
does Casey. He just happened to be in the vicinity
of Gabe and armed with a little bit of knowledge
when some wordquest trivia landed in his lap Mark. Gabe
operated the Aroma location through twenty thirteen and then went
on to different business pursuits. Casey left around the same time.
(23:13):
We asked if there were any other employees who may
have heard the story to corroborate it. Casey gave us
two names. One doesn't recall anything about it. The other
former employee answered our request for a comment by asking
who gave you my name and then never responded again.
Speaker 4 (23:31):
This one knows something. I can feel it. It's no use, Tour.
Speaker 5 (23:36):
He'd sooner lop off his tongue than reveal his secrets.
Speaker 4 (23:40):
Fine by me. Better still, we could lop off his head.
Tor No, fine, then we say he simply did not
respond to a request for comment.
Speaker 1 (23:51):
We did, of course, contact Mark Tremmel. Though he wasn't
the one who told Casey the story of the prizes,
it seems likely that he'd know a thing or two
about it.
Speaker 2 (24:01):
Gabe and Mark were quite proud of that fun little
trivia tidbit that oh yeah, I'm you know, my granddad
was the Tari guy. And when I asked them about
the artifacts, they did claim to have seen them. I
believe Mark confirmed. I don't remember specifically, but I do
know at the very least that Gabe told me the
story that he has been in the same room with
(24:24):
the artifacts and has had his picture taken with them.
Speaker 1 (24:27):
But Mark didn't respond. The Tremmel cone of silence persisted
and Gabe, well, we can't ask Gabe. Unfortunately, in twenty sixteen,
Gabe Tremmeel passed away at the age of thirty two
while living in New York City. According to the United
States Attorney's Office in the Southern District of New York,
a medical doctor and graduate student was convicted of selling
(24:50):
Gabe Tremmel a lethal dose of fentanyl, a dangerous opioid.
If there is a photo of Gabe posing with sword
Quest prizes, we don't know if anyone has it, or
if anyone knows where it could be. And assuming Jack
had those prizes circa twenty eleven, Jack's death in twenty
twelve would have placed them in other hands. Of course,
(25:13):
this is speculation. We can't say, nor do we say
the Trammels are in possession of the remaining sword Quest prizes.
But like the game itself, it's become a part of
the mythology of Atari and one no Tremmel family member
seems willing to dispel. They're under no obligation to, of course,
(25:34):
but it would be a simple way of getting people
to stop asking you about it. If Jack did keep
the prizes, Casey believes it would be symbolic a trophy
representing Jack Tremmel on top of Atari, a pioneer of
personal computing.
Speaker 2 (25:50):
Oh yeah, they'd be a hell of a nice keepsake
of his victory and his battles to become the King
of Atari.
Speaker 1 (25:58):
If the King of Atari had the treasures, then they
might wind up where most treasures do, inside the hallowed
halls of a museum.
Speaker 5 (26:14):
We're heading into one of our collection storage areas here
at the museum.
Speaker 4 (26:25):
We have a.
Speaker 5 (26:25):
Keypad and the security card swape that I needed to
do to get into this area. We're walking through an
area that focuses on our arcade conservation. We're standing in
a room that has an enormous amount of video games
and collections objects.
Speaker 1 (26:46):
We're in Rochester, New York. It's an upstate community known
for its medical university and for pop culture fans for
being host to the Strong Museum of Play which is
a massive collection of play things that fills almost four
hundred thousand square feet and welcomes a half million visitors
every year. Think of it like the world's biggest toy store,
(27:08):
only it spans generations. Everything is here original barbie'es, Gi Joe's,
and of course a deep collection of the electronic toy
that's dominated for decades, the video game. The Museum is
in Rochester because Rochester was once the home of Margaret
Wood very Strong, a collector of toys and dolls and
(27:31):
a lot of everything, whose collection grew so large her
home became something of a dollhouse. When she died in
nineteen sixty nine, she willed her belongings to a museum
that eventually became her namesake, The Strong in nineteen eighty two.
And while the Strong initially exhibited a lot of things,
it was toys that became the focal point.
Speaker 5 (27:53):
And so we're standing in front of this massive television
because we've recreated Home Pong as a massive interactive that
people can play here at the museum. And so I'm
using an oversized knob on a giant console. Oh and
(28:20):
they got me.
Speaker 1 (28:22):
That's Jeremy Saucier. Jeremy is the assistant vice president for
Interpretation and Electronic Games at the Strong. He has a
PhD in history from the University of Rochester. Games are
his relics, his barometer for our shared leisure habits. His
focus is the International Center for the History of Electronic Games,
(28:44):
a collection totaling around sixty thousand items and growing all
the time. This stuff is well loved. You can see
cigarette burns and handprints on some of the arcade machines,
the evidence of the gamer who spent countless hours chasing
pac Man.
Speaker 5 (29:00):
So just really thousands and thousands. We have the most
comprehensive collection of play things but also video games anywhere
in the world. So you're standing in part of that collection.
But Atari is one of the first companies where this
is what they're doing. They're making video games. You know,
even Nintendo as a playing card company, Kaliko was a
(29:23):
leather company. And so you know, when I think about
Atari today, I think it's a combination of you have
a generation of people who were introduced to video games
through Atari, and I think they understand that on some
level that that was important. And Atari plays an important
(29:45):
role in that They're not the only ones, but they
play a very important role. And you know, just like
you know, you wouldn't have Tesla today if you didn't
have Ford and GM, well, you wouldn't have Sony. You
wouldn't have Microsoft in the Xbox if you didn't have Atari. First.
Speaker 1 (30:05):
The Strong's Atari holdings number well over nine hundred items, consoles, joysticks, games, manuals,
original art, and naturally the sword Quest titles. But no,
not the prizes. To get the obvious question out of
the way.
Speaker 5 (30:20):
I mean, I can say for sure that we do
not have them.
Speaker 1 (30:24):
But there are other treasures here.
Speaker 5 (30:26):
Because I'm going to handle a couple of objects here
I'm going to put some gloves on. Is that we're
standing in front of a KRT curator's cart that has
a couple of the sword Quest games on it, and
a September October nineteen eighty two issue of Atari Age,
(30:49):
which was a publication that was sent to members of
Atari's clubs with jewels encrusted on them worth many thousands
of dollars gold objects. And so this contest is really
at the height of Atari's power. Some would say it's
(31:12):
at the height of Atari's hubris, because when the contest starts,
it's nineteen eighty two, right, So if we open up,
we're looking at this cover of Atari Age, and so
this is September October of nineteen eighty two, and even
right on the cover is this wonderful artwork that are
showing the characters from the sword Quest games. And if
(31:36):
I open this up, there is a two page spread
promoting this contest. Sword Quest you can win fabulous prizes
by solving the mysteries of four new cartridges.
Speaker 1 (31:54):
Part of the Strong's Atari collection is a lot of paperwork,
game ideas, design ideas. There's even a map chest full
of original art. But there's no slip of paper that
traces where those items went, no invoice, no destroy upon receipts.
Smoking Gun Atari was a poor curator of its own history.
(32:15):
The items arrive piecemeal from employees or donors, and while
there are still items to be inventoried, there's no sign
any of it holds the clue.
Speaker 5 (32:25):
But also it is just a turn of history like
they could have very easily have been thrown away, and
a lot of this history is gone for the Strong.
Speaker 1 (32:34):
Gaming isn't a commercial endeavor. If they get their hands
on a rare cartridge or console, or even an original microchip,
it's cataloged and like a puzzle piece, snapped into place
wherever it fits in gaming history. And while Jeremy's Landscape
is pretty vast. Everything from early handheld games to Nintendo
systems to Sony PlayStations are here. He's definitely aware of
(32:58):
sword Quest, one of the biggest myths in gaming history,
treasures that, if they were ever discovered, might one day
wind up here.
Speaker 5 (33:08):
What's fascinating about these prizes, you know, is just there's
so much speculation about it. It's been rumored that one
of them was actually melted down and sold. I mean,
obviously the person who wins it can do what they
want with it. And if I was a college student
trying to pay debt, then I might be hawking my
gold jewelry as well, you know. But as artifacts that
(33:32):
help tell this larger story and represent a time in
video games where you're basically, you know, minting these fantastic
gold artifacts, I think it'd be wonderful to have them,
you know. It almost reminds me of the sort of
Gilded Age.
Speaker 1 (33:48):
Right to Jeremy, the prizes represent something other than mastering
a difficult video game. They're emblematic of Atari's success, and
maybe they're hubris.
Speaker 5 (34:01):
You're these artifacts that kind of represent the height of
the video game industry, the height of Atari that they
would have invested in a contest like this, But Atari
itself cracked. Atari itself crumbled. Though they're coming back now
and they're doing things today. But yes, as a historian,
as curators, we'd obviously love to see some of these things.
Speaker 1 (34:26):
In some ways, Atari is like a fallen civilization, once
on top of the world, now a distant second to
the xboxes and immersive gaming world of today. Like any
other relic, the prizes, were they to surface, could be
sold for Lewis Checchia amounts of money. It's a problem
Jeremy runs into when adding to the strongest collection, a
(34:49):
problem every museum runs into. Sooner or later that Picasso
may not be available because someone paid a fortune for it.
So it may be hard to conceive of the prizes
being on public display one day for all to see.
That can happen. Collectors can loan out art or collectibles,
(35:10):
but so far the sword Quest stash has not been
for public consumption. But it's certainly possible that someone listening
does know where they are, and maybe at some point
they'll consider the value of snapping that piece into the
overall puzzle.
Speaker 5 (35:28):
Yeah, I mean it's difficult, you know. On the one hand,
I can see that if these things do exist, whoever
might have them. I mean, there's a chance that they
don't even know that they have these sorts of things.
It really is, you know, that's a possibility too. There's
a community of people who would love to find out
(35:51):
that these things exist, and even more they'd love to
see them. So the argument to me is more I
think along the lines of that these are potentially artifacts
from a community of gamers, a community that's heavily invested
in the history of Atari, in the history of video games,
(36:14):
and so I think the argument is that, you know,
if you possibly can, it'd be great to share that history,
even if it's just acknowledging that they exist, even if
it's acknowledging that something happened to them and that there's
some evidence of that that helps to put the mystery
to rest.
Speaker 1 (36:34):
Today, Atari is in Paris, well sort of. The video
game company which pioneered home gaming, now has offices in
New York and France. After changing hands a few times
since the Jack Tremmel days, it wound up with a
company named Infograms, a mix of the French words informatique
(36:56):
and program. Atari now takes a more circuitous route to
its branding. A few years ago, they announced plans to
license the Atari name to backers of a hotel in
Las Vegas. The Atari Hotel would be a giant, gaudy
ode to retro gaming, with themed rooms and plenty of joysticks.
(37:16):
That hasn't broken ground yet. What has materialized is an
Atari twenty six hundred plus retro console, which was released
at the end of twenty twenty three and delivers a
dose of nostalgia. It looks virtually identical to the old
twenty six hundred, right down to the wood grain finish.
It can play original Atari cartridges, or you can select
(37:38):
from some included games on a ten to one cart
Atari did something else too. In twenty twenty two, they
released Atari fifty, a software program celebrating the company's fiftieth anniversary,
part game and part documentary. It included something gamers have
been waiting for since the nineteen eighties, a fully finished,
(38:00):
fully playable version of air World, the fourth and never
released game in the sword Quest series. This isn't the
original version as envisioned by sword Quest's creator Todd Frye.
It's more of an homage to that idea, but it
is an official release, and it does make for one
less missing treasure in this story. But there was no
(38:23):
fourth comic from DC, and therefore no conclusion to the
sword Quest saga. That's fitting since the one in the
real world is still open ended too. Those prizes could
have been destroyed for their material value decades ago. If
that's true, then the chalice is the only one that survived,
(38:43):
and may be all the more valuable for it. There
are three distinct perspectives here. The collector with deep pockets
who wants to look at video game treasure in their
basement trophy room, the archivist who wouldn't mind seeing them
help to tell the story of gaming's ascendants from a
seedier side of pop culture to a legitimate art form.
(39:06):
And a family who may now consider the prizes to
be a kind of heirloom, unwilling to give the public
a glimpse treasures that have taken on a more personal meaning.
All of these are valid. The only thing we can
say with certainty is that sword Quest is a part
of a shared cultural history. The contest anticipated the multimedia
(39:28):
explosion that would arrive in the coming decades, where giant
conglomerates use all of their assets for one unified sales pitch.
When Warner Brothers wanted to raise awareness of Barbie, they
draped all of their reality television in pink. When Warner
Communications wanted to promote sword Quest, they recruited all of
(39:48):
their companies of that era to the task. Atari the
Franklin Mint DC comics. It was a radical innovation caught
in the middle of a transition in gaming that was
termined for cost. Tor and Tara, the hero and heroine
of the story, were effectively laid off before their mission
was complete, and most of their expected rewards are still
(40:12):
unaccounted for. But there's a reason they call it the
hero's journey and not the hero's destination, even though it
was never completed. Without sword Quest, we wouldn't have the
pioneers of competitive gaming, people like Stephen Bell, Jackie Custer,
Burt Wardahl, and Michael Rideout. Today's esports stars play for millions.
(40:34):
They played for some fleeting glory and a cool sword.
Those prizes may be gone, but their memories remain of
long hours spent mastering games. Before gaming was truly mainstream,
sword Quest was something increasingly rare these days, a true original,
a spark for imagination, decades later, There's still never been
(40:59):
anything quite like it.
Speaker 3 (41:01):
The sword eludes us. Tara, the one who wields it,
will not step forward.
Speaker 4 (41:05):
Perhaps they fear harassment or robbery. Perhaps, but can something
be taken that belongs to the people? What do you mean, Torque?
Speaker 3 (41:16):
Someone may be able to put their hands on its hilt,
to keep it under glass, Yet it represents so much more,
a shared history.
Speaker 4 (41:23):
Perhaps one day all can see it, perhaps, or perhaps
it's gone forever. What now, sister, What of our story?
Speaker 3 (41:33):
Now?
Speaker 4 (41:34):
Now we find tyrann Us and vanquish him another way,
But how now we write our own ending? Come on,
let's go adventuring.
Speaker 1 (41:53):
The Legend of sword Quest is a production of iHeart
Podcasts and School of Humans. This episode was written by
Jake Rawson and hosted by Jamie Loftus producers are Miranda
Hawkins and Josh Fisher. Executive producers are Virginia Prescott, L. C. Crowley,
Brandon Barr, and Jason English.
Speaker 4 (42:10):
Our show editor is Mary Doo.
Speaker 1 (42:12):
Audio engineering by Graham Gibson, Research and fact checking by
Austin Thompson and Jake Rosson.
Speaker 4 (42:19):
Original score by Jesse Niswanger. This episode was sound designed
by Josh Fisher.
Speaker 1 (42:24):
Mixing and mastering by Miranda Hawkins. Show logo by Lucy Quintonia.
Voices in this episode are provided by Haley Ellman and
Graham Parker.
Host
Jamie Loftus
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