September 30, 2024 • 35 mins
In this episode, Cari takes listeners back to the 2023 Women's National Championship game between LSU and Iowa — a game that made history and gave rise to one of the most significant moments in sports. We'll delve into its cultural impact, the media's portrayal of the players, and the ongoing conversations around race and gender in sports. The game shattered records and may have shown that every great player needs a foil.
Cari Champion interviews Jemele Hill, FlauJae Johnson. Chiney Ogwumike, Sabreena Merchant, Ryan Ruocco, and Terrika Foster-Brasby
Other voices include Kev on Stage, Djonai Carrington, Alyssa Thomas, and more...
Connect: @CariChampion @NakedwithCariChampion
Check out NAKED SPORTS on YouTube!
See omnystudio.com/listener for privacy information.
Mark as Played
Transcript
Episode Transcript
Available transcripts are automatically generated. Complete accuracy is not guaranteed.
Speaker 1 (00:01):
The Superman needed Lex Luthor, the Batman needed to joke.
And I don't need to pick to put Angel Reese
in some kind of villain as roll because I don't
consider her a villain.
Speaker 2 (00:11):
But I think every great player needs a foil.
Speaker 3 (00:13):
The reason why we watch it women's basketball is not
just because of one person.
Speaker 4 (00:16):
It's because of me too.
Speaker 5 (00:17):
You know.
Speaker 4 (00:17):
I don't think there should be any criticism for what
she did. I honestly didn't see it when the game
was going on.
Speaker 6 (00:22):
But the story became more compelling, and the desire to
watch and talk about it became more compelling when she
had a foil. Angel won a national championship.
Speaker 4 (00:31):
She has four million plus followers. She's at the met Galop.
Speaker 6 (00:34):
Sizza and Meg thee Stallion want to come sit courtside
and watch her.
Speaker 2 (00:37):
Naked Sports. The Making of a Rivalry a six episode
docu series that explores the media frenzy surrounding two super
novas in Kitlin Clark and Angel Reese. I'm your host,
Carrie Champion, and welcome to the Making of a Rivalry.
Speaker 6 (00:53):
Oh my.
Speaker 5 (00:56):
H to the National Championship Game.
Speaker 2 (01:00):
The twenty twenty three National Championship Game. LSU versus Iowa.
The American Airlines Arena in Dallas was alive with screaming
fans and notable dignitaries.
Speaker 5 (01:10):
Doctor Jill Biden the first lady in the building, alongside
the legend Billy Jane King.
Speaker 2 (01:17):
The narrative going into the Natty America's Darling has delivered
over and over again throughout the tournament. Clark had taken
a team of good players and elevated their playing style
and potential in an unprecedented way. This was Caitlin Clark's
moment to be cropped.
Speaker 5 (01:33):
There are stars and there are solar systems. Caitlyn Clark
is the latter.
Speaker 2 (01:40):
Television ratings told us how important this game was. Nine
point nine million viewers watched at home, and at the
time the game broke records, reportedly more views than any
women's college basketball game ever, any Stanley Cup game since
nineteen seventy three, the twenty twenty one NBA Finals, the
(02:00):
twenty twenty World Series, and the finale of the Last
of Us. These ladies delivered in this historic contest.
Speaker 5 (02:08):
Angel Rey's gorgeous delivery Inside.
Speaker 2 (02:10):
My friend and former colleague Ryan Ruco was on the
call with Rebecca Lobo.
Speaker 7 (02:15):
I'm calling the game, and first of all, LSU their
performance in the championship game is one of the greatest
shooting performances in the history of a National championship game.
They got contributions from all over the place. Alexis Morris
down the stretch was amazing. Jasmin Carson, who had really
struggled in the tournament, hit I think like five first
(02:37):
half threes.
Speaker 4 (02:37):
It was crazy. Oursoneral Fire Ange Dick from.
Speaker 7 (02:41):
Three you know LSU that whole year there was I
think there was a storyline around them which was accurate
about them being this very you know, fun group who
had a flamboyant style. They had really drawn in the fans.
They were setting records for attendance at the PMAC Center
(03:04):
in New Orleans, not just because of their winning, but
because of the way they played. I think l used
to use the term nil NILSU because they have these
players with different nil deals.
Speaker 8 (03:18):
Flauger, who has you know, Rotten Nation deal, Angel who
obviously has an incredible following off the court as well
as on, and who was bringing in a lot of
money with the nil as well, And so you had
this team that kind of felt like it felt like
they were you know, rock stars all season long, and
then they get to the championship game and they perform
(03:40):
the way they do.
Speaker 9 (03:45):
This super senior Jazmine Carson coming off the bench, scoring
seventeen points in the first half, including this ridiculous banked
half court shot at the buzzer that puts LSU up
double digits and there's just really no coming back from that.
Angel Reese looks like Moses Malone, you know, getting out
of every single offensive rebound. Alexis Morris is putting the
clams on Kaitlyn Clark.
Speaker 2 (04:05):
Sabrina Merchant covered the March Madness Tournament for the Athletic
In that arena, Would you get.
Speaker 4 (04:10):
Your first half of the arena?
Speaker 9 (04:11):
It was sort of like someone let the air out
because no one really knew what was happening. There was
an expectation of I was going to come in take
care of business, and it wasn't even close. Like LSU
jumped on them and were in control the entire person
half Carson.
Speaker 10 (04:28):
Nobody ever thought that that would boil down to would
it boiled down to? But I got to grace the
floor with two of the biggest female stars that we'll
ever see in our lifetime Angelica, Kit and Leclark, right,
and just to be in that in that moment and
see those who kind of just catastrophically become the face
(04:51):
of women's basketball. It was beautiful. It was something that
we needed and I'm glad I was on the Winnow's side, Ryan,
But overall, you look at that, when you look at
that game, it's like, wow, like this this just changed
our life. This kind of just changed the world, Like
this kind of just changed women's basketball as the whole
were on the biggest stage of being ourselves. It was beautiful.
(05:15):
Then I understand the part that I played in it,
but as a fan of it, I'm just grateful for
the part that angel and Caitlyn played in it, Like
you know what I'm saying, and the way that they
were able.
Speaker 2 (05:24):
To just.
Speaker 10 (05:26):
Man historically make that a moment, and man, I would
just be grateful to be a part of it.
Speaker 2 (05:31):
And LSU freshman familiar with fame beyond the court, Flauje
Johnson had ten seven and four ten points, seven rebounds,
and four assists.
Speaker 7 (05:41):
Johnson point grew up inside and Williams all about finish
a really nice job.
Speaker 2 (05:46):
John She did more than just play a part. Her
contribution was invaluable, John fifth, and she will always be
known as a member of a sorority that changed the
way we see women's sports.
Speaker 10 (05:59):
I felt like it was like dang, like we finally
get our just do like you know what I'm saying,
Like it's finally time for women to be on the map.
Like it's finally time where because I've seen this commercial
was like when a young girl want to go play basketball,
they don't go say I want to go play women's basketball.
They say I want to go play basketball, right, And
(06:20):
I was like, this is our time, Like we're gonna
inspire so many little girls to go out and be
confident and be you no matter what.
Speaker 2 (06:28):
You know what I'm saying, this is their time. The
twenty twenty three National Championship Game is known as the
Big Game because history will remember how these women, while
just being themselves, used the national stage to open up
the lens and remove a filter that shadowed the sport.
And when I use the word shadow, I'm referring to
an archetype that existed in professional basketball and as a result,
(06:51):
these ladies never received all of their shine.
Speaker 11 (06:54):
I'm Seney gommickay A two time WB ulcer in ESPN
analyst and host. I was in the league for ten
years a decade, and it was really cool because I
feel like I was a tweeter, you know. Gone were
the days where I think a lot of times people
looked at the WNBA is like, oh, what is this
a joke? People started to see the copective fire. People
started to see that our game speaks for itself. And now,
(07:16):
I mean I probably left like a year or two
early because everyone's fying charter flights.
Speaker 4 (07:22):
Their minds are better.
Speaker 11 (07:23):
But I'm still grateful and happy to see the league grow.
These women are household names. Where they go, they stop,
camera shoot, They are the center of attention and that's.
Speaker 4 (07:33):
What our league needed.
Speaker 11 (07:34):
But more importantly, what I love is that this new
generation of stars, they do things unapologetically themselves.
Speaker 4 (07:41):
They are the best at what they do.
Speaker 11 (07:43):
They deliver in the biggest moments, Like I never expected
that we would be having this type of season, not
only from individual performances but also collective you know experiences.
You go to WNBA games, they're packed, they're getting upgraded,
they're sold out. You go to WB events, people are
waiting in lines, get autographs, merch is literally out.
Speaker 4 (08:02):
Of stores, and so I was worried.
Speaker 11 (08:04):
For a hot minute.
Speaker 2 (08:05):
I was like, oh, where is this discourse going?
Speaker 11 (08:07):
LRD to help us? But I do think it only
made the stars shine brighter.
Speaker 2 (08:12):
Cheney and Goo Makay, like most of us, could not
predict how one game would change the world, or how
one gesture could create a narrative. So let's go back
to the game. LSU was up at the half and
in control, but with a little under three minutes left
in the third quarter, the momentum shifts.
Speaker 8 (08:31):
Cha Shinado has made it a seven pointeen.
Speaker 9 (08:35):
There's you know, that little extra war when Iowa makes
it's come back in the third quarter, and you think, like, okay,
it's like what we think is going to happen actually
gonna happen.
Speaker 2 (08:42):
But LSU was not to be denied. They were bigger,
they were faster, and they were just better. With a
little over a minute left in the fourth quarter, poor
good for the dad due So it took us to
the moment, the moment that change. I believe how people
(09:03):
started to watch women's basketball. It's clear that LSU has one.
They're at the free throw line and I see Angel
talking mad trash.
Speaker 4 (09:12):
So it's interesting because why I didn't even notice that
it was happening.
Speaker 2 (09:16):
I didn't need to see it.
Speaker 10 (09:17):
Like I was crying and I was going to hug
Coach Mokey.
Speaker 2 (09:22):
I was hugging Coach Mokey.
Speaker 10 (09:24):
What I'm saying like, I wasn't even I didn't even
know what was going on.
Speaker 7 (09:29):
I think what I said on air was just Angel
Reese letting Kaylin Clark know a ring is coming.
Speaker 2 (09:34):
When making of a rivalry returns. Why the ring me
gesture in the last few moments of the big game
sounded an alarm.
Speaker 7 (09:42):
In that moment. What I always think is important is
a play by play broadcaster is just describing what's happening,
you know, Like, that's not that's not the moment for
me to give a hot take. And I wouldn't have
even had one in that moment. But I just felt
like I knew. I was like, as it happened, I knew.
(10:04):
I was like, Okay, this is going to be a
talking point after this game is over. This is certainly
going to be a talking point because people will always
latch onto anything that feels juicy or dramatic or controversial.
Speaker 5 (10:16):
Back in a moment, and Angel Reese knows a ring
is coming.
Speaker 2 (10:33):
I remember watching this game and I was in shock,
shocked by what I thought was going to be a
win for sure for Iowa. You must remember a few
days before they had beaten an undefeated South Carolina team
and it wasn't even close.
Speaker 9 (10:47):
South Carolina comes in as the defending national champion, starting
five that has lost maybe eight or nine games together
in their last four years, undefeated throughout the regular season.
It's a nightcap on that Friday, the Final four LSU,
who has already beaten Virginia Tech, which in hindsight is
a dramatically.
Speaker 4 (11:04):
More important game than we gave it credit for in
the time.
Speaker 9 (11:06):
But you know, Caitlin leads Iowa to this upset of
South Carolina, and the energy in that building is unlike
anything I could remember previously being present for just live,
you know, the tension of like watching a goliath get
slain right, Like, you just don't see that very often.
Speaker 4 (11:25):
This is the Caitlin Clark Show. And she puts up.
Speaker 9 (11:27):
Forty points another magnificent performance and takes down the Giants
and it's, oh my god, like, what did we just witness?
Speaker 2 (11:35):
The world watched as a young woman playing for IOWA
single handedly dismantled the current national champions. There were very
few words to describe what was happening in real time.
Arguably one of the most surreal moments in college basketball.
Speaker 1 (11:49):
So it was a shot that Iowa was able to
knock them out just because again, all around, South Carolina
was builed as the better team, but Iowa had the
at her game.
Speaker 4 (12:00):
They showed up that day and it didn't seem like
a fluke either.
Speaker 9 (12:03):
It looked like she was in complete control of that game,
which is not something you expect to see against again
undefeated FENDI national champion, like multiple players going to the pros,
best defense in the country, all.
Speaker 4 (12:15):
Of that, you name it.
Speaker 2 (12:17):
They had every Alcolay.
Speaker 4 (12:18):
I think that's when the switch flips.
Speaker 9 (12:19):
She's about to serve herself as the greatest college player
at the generation. Everybody's tuning in to watch her play
and what happens.
Speaker 5 (12:29):
Has captured it's very first national championship.
Speaker 2 (12:35):
The final score LSU one two, Iowa eighty five. Ryan
Rugo had called a perfect game, but he knew the
outcome had deeper implications. It was a huge win for
women's sports. It would bring more visibility and recognition to
a game that was already growing, But the loss would
also elevate the vitriol of an emotional fan base. So
(12:57):
in the aftermath of the big game, the conversation wasn't
about an incredible turnaround for the LSU program in kim
moulki second year. It wasn't about how LSU had dominated
for the majority of the game. It wasn't even about
what an incredible display of talent we all witnessed in
the championship. The sole focus for the media and the
(13:17):
fans was the ring me can't see me gesture, And
it was nasty.
Speaker 7 (13:23):
When someone trash talk is trash talks the darling of
you know, the country in a game in which you
know she's going to lose, you know people are going
to get frustrated by that and upset by that and
mad by that, and so I kind of I was
able to process like, oh, that's going to be that's
going to be a story in the aftermath.
Speaker 9 (13:43):
As Caitlin said repeatedly after the game, like she'd been
dished out the same stuff for five previous games while
she was winning. But like you said, the optics make
people uncomfortable like there was there's a racial element, which
I mean we let it slide on the men's side, right,
like if the male athlete taunts another male athlete, doesn't
really not if they're black and white. It's just two
men going at one another. But there was an extra layer.
Speaker 4 (14:05):
Because they're women.
Speaker 9 (14:06):
Because we don't let women show their emotions like that
in public. They were not given that same level of grace.
Speaker 2 (14:16):
Do you think that coverage to help create a rivalry
if you were, I mean, I had.
Speaker 9 (14:22):
No problem with the rivalry being created, because I think
that's good for sport. I think it's good that we
have two great players who are competing for the same goal,
two great teams that are competing for the same goal,
and they run up against one another, and if there's
a little bit of dislike, that's fine. I think everything
that has occurred between Caitlin and Angel has been perfectly
healthy between the two of them, and between Iowa, LSU
and Indiana Chicago's totally fine. The way Angel was portrayed, though,
(14:47):
was not fair to her. I mean I think about
just like some of the language. I don't want to
call anybody out in particular, but just the language that
was used about her like that she was classless and
things that are much worse than that was uncalled for
and not correct and has painted Angel rais and a light,
(15:09):
like a negative light that she hasn't really been able
to come out from, which is truly unfortunate, because like
that was a crowning moment for her, right like literally
national title of most Outstanding Claire, she gets to go
to the White House, and all of a sudden, she's
the villain.
Speaker 4 (15:21):
And I do think that.
Speaker 9 (15:25):
There's a natural like it's one thing to just be
like the foil to Kaitlin Clark, it's another thing to
be the one everyone's rooting against. And it was just
really unfortunate that this glorious moment for her was tainted
by everybody getting in their feelings about a little bit
of trash talk, which again, that's Angel, that's Caitlin, that's
(15:50):
what they do. And I think that's why we enjoy
sports is because we.
Speaker 4 (15:55):
Like a little fire, we like a little competition.
Speaker 2 (15:57):
And it is your right of passage, just a rite
a passage you lose, I get to talk to that
is the right of passage. And I've said that over
and over again. It's so frustrating. The way in which
you're describing this is really eloquent, and it's also interesting
to see it from your perspective. But to your earlier point,
we still have this conversation some sixteen months later. Why
(16:19):
have we as a society, we as a culture, basketball culture,
we as members of this entity, refuse to let go
of the black versus white and angels the villain and
Caitlin is being bullied.
Speaker 9 (16:34):
Yeah, I wish there was a better answer for why
we have not been able to let go of the
black versus white, But that's just aciety.
Speaker 1 (16:43):
T Rika Foster Brasby, I am a women's basketball reporter
and analyst.
Speaker 2 (16:48):
Funny story, during the.
Speaker 1 (16:50):
Final four, I was actually on assignment where I had
a chance to talk to each and every team, and
I had a different angle for what I.
Speaker 4 (16:59):
Was talking to you to all the final four teams.
Speaker 1 (17:01):
When it got to Iowa, my angle was, you know,
you guys think that Caitlyn Clark talks a lot of
smack on the court. I want to know more about
the smack talk that she does on the court and
if she doesn't in the locker room. And about three
players said to me that when she did this on
the court. It was not at all to a player.
(17:22):
It was actually to one of the assistant coaches who
had an inside joke with her about something that they,
you know, were working on in practice, and that was.
Speaker 4 (17:32):
The response to the coach.
Speaker 1 (17:34):
But from the camera angle, it looked as if they
were doing it to a different player. And even Hailey
van Litz said, she didn't do that to me, like,
that was not towards me at all. She was playing
for Louisville at the time, so she was like, it
was not to me. I don't know where people got
that from. So there's already a misconception that she's doing
(17:55):
this to players as a means of kind of talking crap,
when the reality is she wasn't doing it to players
at all.
Speaker 2 (18:02):
So it kind of fueled.
Speaker 1 (18:04):
They kind of fanned a fire that actually no one
even knew existed seriously, because it was not towards any
player whatsoever. So we certainly being there live, didn't see
it and had no idea that she did it. It
was only after we started to see the replay from
the actual telecast that we could see that Angel Reese was.
Speaker 4 (18:24):
Like, oh, okay, got it.
Speaker 2 (18:28):
However, there was this conception or perception rather that she
was doing that to players throughout the tournament. At least
I saw her at once say you know, like get
out of here. You're like, oh yeah, she told was.
Speaker 1 (18:41):
Talking absolutely, and so that was that's a thing like
she which is what prompted me to do the story
because it was like, girl, you talked, you do this,
but it just so happened that particular gesture. The irony
is that that particular gesture, which wasn't for a player,
is the one gesture that actually sparked what would probably
(19:04):
be or what looks to be one of the biggest
rivalries in college basketball. Here's broadcast journalist Jamel Hill. Yeah,
I think about the names that Angel Reese got called on.
So because you know, most like a lot of people,
you watch the game, you have Twitter open, you know,
you're seeing the real time reaction and by some pretty
grown ass people calling Angel Reyes out of her name
(19:27):
because of what she did. And I'm like, hold on,
once again, it just proves, and this is a staple
in this country, it's not the what, it's the who.
It's always the who. Because she don't look like she
ain't asking permission to do nothing. She like, Yo, this
is what I am all that like this, this is
what it is like. I got my hair, my lashes.
He's like, I'm doing me And so I love that
(19:50):
boldness about her. There's a boldness that's there.
Speaker 2 (19:52):
She said in one of her most famous quotes, if
you want me to bill and up be the villain,
I'll be the villain. That was something I felt marginalized women,
Black women more specifically can understand. I can be tough
all day. I can do all the things you need
me to do, because that is the role that has
been to signed, and that's probably where I'm most comfortable.
I understand the assignment, and that's probably where I'm most
(20:13):
comfortable because when I have tried to show vulnerability, it
doesn't It's never received. And the only time you hear
me or see me or make or there's movement is
when I am a villain. And that's when I could
relate to her. I think a lot of black women
can relate to her in that way. Why is it
so easy to call her or make her the foil?
(20:33):
Why is that easy for the fans who are the
new fans, the people who are watching it behind the scenes,
the people who might just meet her. Why is that
that assignment given to her so comfortably.
Speaker 1 (20:44):
Well, I think because a lot of people have mischaracterized
her and her passion for the game, and especially because
she is and we've seen this so much in sports,
she's the type of player like.
Speaker 2 (21:00):
If she's good, she's gonna let you know.
Speaker 4 (21:02):
You know what I'm saying.
Speaker 2 (21:03):
But what's wrong with that?
Speaker 4 (21:04):
Man do it?
Speaker 2 (21:05):
Nothing, it's wrong.
Speaker 4 (21:06):
Men do it all the time.
Speaker 2 (21:07):
There is nothing wrong with that at all.
Speaker 1 (21:09):
But when you're a black woman doing that, you're gonna
pay a different price. When you're a prosecutor trying to
take down a felon, you're gonna pay a different price. Yeah,
It's like, it's gonna be different, it's gonna be viewed differently.
It's gonna be viewed, it's gonna make people uncomfortable. You know,
they don't you know, they don't like it.
Speaker 2 (21:27):
And so.
Speaker 1 (21:29):
But I like that she hasn't allowed that to change her,
you know what I'm saying. And so I think to
have that kind of spirit at that age is really
something because it's something that a lot of women have
to grow into and she just sort of naturally has it,
Like I'm here, and I'm not afraid to tell you
that I'm here.
Speaker 2 (21:47):
I'm not shrinking when I come into the room.
Speaker 4 (21:48):
You know how it gets hurt for her? I do.
Speaker 1 (21:50):
I think it comes at a price, and it comes
at a toll because mentally, absolutely.
Speaker 2 (21:55):
The social media trolls had themselves a time. Grown men
were calling a Jewel Rees and the LSU team some
pretty horrific names. Within minutes, the trending topics on Twitter
the game Caitlin Clark, Angel Reese, you can't see me.
Even CNN had called and asked me to be on
the morning show to talk about the ring me gesture.
Speaker 4 (22:14):
Joya's right now was Seena contributor Kerrie Chafvick.
Speaker 2 (22:17):
I remember thinking, we just witnessed one of the greatest
college basketball games in recent memory. Women are finally an
invaluable commodity in athletics. But yet and still we are
all focused on the optics. But I also know it's
a captivating storyline.
Speaker 12 (22:34):
I remember like Angel getting called class list and I
was like, and this is for me.
Speaker 4 (22:39):
It was like, here we go again.
Speaker 2 (22:41):
keV on stage is a comedian and a culture expert.
Speaker 12 (22:45):
For me, it makes me want to defend angel.
Speaker 2 (22:47):
Okay, so your perception of her is how you see America.
Speaker 12 (22:50):
Yeah, absolutely. I think I am very pro black, straight up,
and I'm a champion for black women and I'm going
to defend black women. So it makes me want to
be like, all right, Angel, I got you. And Caitlyn,
I'm sorry, it's you know, they're not like us. They're
not like us, they're not like us. But I don't
want to do that to her because she's twenty years old,
(23:12):
twenty one, twenty two years old from Iowa. So she's
also getting a whole new like media landscape and all
of this, And I think social media made it way
less about basketball very quickly, Like Caitlyn's fans were and
angel Rees fans, everybody like dug their heels in the sand,
and you like chose the side based on how you
(23:33):
see the world as opposed to the actual basketball being played.
Speaker 2 (23:37):
And the basketball that was and is currently being played
is nothing short or spectacular a year and a half
removed from the big Game, and I know these ladies
feel as if they're not being heard, and.
Speaker 9 (23:49):
It comes to death threats when it comes to people
finding like I'm talking about, people have.
Speaker 4 (23:53):
Come down to my address. No, like it's come down
to that.
Speaker 2 (23:57):
The conversations about the new fans and race are still
very relevant as the league and the fans adjust to
new standards of expectations. The WNBA finally released a statement
last week after the Indiana Fever Connecticut Sun playoff series.
Caitlin Clark even asked security to remove a heckling fan.
The statement reads, in part, while we welcome a growing
(24:19):
fan base, the WNBA will not tolerate racists, derogatory or
threatening comments made about players, teams, and anyone affiliated with
the league. League Security is actively monitoring threat related activity
and will work directly with teams and arenas to take
appropriate measures involving law enforcement as necessary. Hecklers and sick
(24:41):
of fans will always be a part of the sport.
I know these ladies are aware of that. However, this
emboldened group of women have zero tolerance for disrespect.
Speaker 3 (24:50):
Kaylen has come hold different audience also that she's ringing.
So I think said they have done great things for
the w in general, but we already had stars and
all we just didn't I guess.
Speaker 4 (25:01):
The eyes on it. I think it was necessary. I mean,
but we have Asian Wilson a god.
Speaker 3 (25:07):
Thomas got Brandon store Like, we already have stars, but
I think that they have definitely helped to.
Speaker 5 (25:12):
Grow the game.
Speaker 2 (25:12):
That was this year's most improved player, Djona Carrington of
the Connecticut Sun, which by the way, is the team
that swept Caitlin Clark in the Indiana Fever. But even
Carrington knows there's something special that Caitlyn Clark has brought
to the league. Things changed dramatically when the league realized
Clark felt bigger than just basketball. One of the league
(25:33):
greades and gold medalists, Alyssa Thomas, I think we were.
Speaker 13 (25:37):
Just reflecting a few days ago about how tell, when
we first came in the league, we are had roommates
until you're about six years into the league, so you know,
it's definitely come a long way from that to charge
of fights, to just the attention around him.
Speaker 2 (25:52):
So that's why right now, Chartered flights, better, hotel accommodations,
more marketing money, merchandise sales, Skyrocket sold out arenas. I
know some people might not want to hear this, but
there was the league before Clark and then the league
after Clark. And while I just highlighted the benefits of
Clark in the league. Trust me, it also comes with
(26:14):
some bulls back in a moment, T s.
Speaker 13 (26:22):
Yeah, did you when you went and kind of swatted
to Caitlin, did you intend to hit her in the eye?
Speaker 4 (26:31):
And if so, could you just garth mellout either way?
Could you talk about what happened on that play? I
just I don't even know why. I wouldn't tip to
hit anybody in the eye. That doesn't even make sense
to me. But no, I did it. I didn't know
I hit her. Actually, I was trying to make a
play on the ball, and I.
Speaker 3 (26:48):
Guess I followed through and I hear her, so obviously
it's never intentional. That's not even like the type of
player that I am.
Speaker 11 (26:54):
So yeah, did you and Marina laugh about it afterwards?
Speaker 4 (26:57):
It looked like you there was Later on the game
they cut you guys laughing about it.
Speaker 3 (27:02):
No, I just told you I didn't even know I hitter,
so I can't lew something like it now happened.
Speaker 2 (27:08):
That exchange between veteran journalist Christine Brennan and Connecticut Sun
shooting guard dejan A. Carrington illustrates the frustration that players
are dealing with in a league that has Caitlyn in it.
During the first game of the playoff series, Carrington made
a play on the ball and during the tussle, Clark
was poked in the eye. Clark says the poke in
the eye was not intentional, and for her part, she's
(27:30):
tried to diffuse that angry mob that wanted to verbally
attack and threaten Carrington on social media because of a
basketball play. Players in the w are injured, inadvertently poked
in the eye, double teamed, shoved, pushed around. It's called defense, folks.
Sometimes it can be too aggressive, but for twenty eight
years it's been happening. But in a league with Clark
(27:54):
in it, everything that involves her feels too precious and emotional,
and her emotional fan base has decided to make this
an issue. But it's not only her fans. According to
the Players Association, the media is also culpable. Brennan should
ask the question to Carrington about the play, but when
(28:15):
she followed up the question with what seemed to be
an opinion, well, the WNBPA quickly responded with an elevated ether.
In their statement, the Players Association has done something I've
never seen before when it comes to this league set
firm boundaries, identified the problem and demanded a call to action.
(28:38):
This week is dedicated to celebrating and amplifying Asia, Caitlin
Dejane and no FISA for their hard work and truly
exceptional performances all season long. But we will take this
moment now to stand up for them and the rest
of our members, every single one of them, because we
call bs to unprofessional members of the media like Christine Brennan.
(29:02):
You are not fooling anyone. The so called interview in
the name of journalism was a blatant attempt to bait
a professional athlete and to participating in a narrative that
is false and is designed to feel racist, homophobic, and
misogynistic vitriol on social media. You have abused your privileges
and do not deserve the credentials issued to you, Signed
(29:26):
the executive Director, Terry Carmichael Jackson. That statement goes on
to read that the Association understands the league must have
a relationship with the media in order to continue growth,
but they want USA today the paper. Brennan writes for
to examine her intentions as a journalist. Every single time
(29:46):
I read that statement. I think this league is stretching
and growing and finding its voice. This league is also
creating boundaries. This league, in real time, refuses to be bullied, marginalized,
and or manipulated. Because the world is now watching, this
league is setting a standard of expectations for themselves, the fans,
(30:08):
and the media. It feels empowering and also inspiring, and
Angel Reese not long after shared the following. For the
past two years, the media has benefited from my pain
and me being villainized to create a narrative. They allowed this,
This was beneficial to them. I sometimes share my experiences
(30:29):
of these things that have happened to me, but I've
also allowed this to happen to me for way too long,
and now other players in this league are dealing with
and experiencing the same things. This isn't okay. Anything beyond
criticism about playing the game we love is wrong. I'm
sorry to all the players that have and continue to
(30:51):
experience the same things I have. This is when I
started my podcast to take my voice back and create
the narrative of who I really am. At the end
of the day, I don't want an apology, nor do
I think this will ever stop. But something has to change.
Like I said, these ladies are finding their voice and
(31:11):
before anyone listening to this podcast or watching feels as
if this is an assault on Caitlyn Clark. Please stop.
Caitlin Clark's a great player. I'm sure we will see
her as a generational talent. But there is a new
following of fans and they are toxic. Caitlyn has called
them trolls and not fans, and it should be called out.
(31:35):
But the league with Caitlyn Clark in it arguably is
a better place and will be a better place. Her
impact is undeniable, akin to a Beyonce or a Taylor Swift.
Just like there's the Beehive or Swifties, there are Clerky's,
for lack of a better term, I think there's a
Taylor Swift effect with Caitlyn Clark. It feels like everything
(31:58):
she touches, everywhere she goes selling out arenas. People want
to be around her, People love her. I have people
asking me about the game because of her who've never
asked about the game. There's this, yeah, this very this.
I have to be a part of her, be around her.
What is she doing, what is she saying? Do you
see the correlation? She has a tailor swift effect. I'm
selling out arenas if I want to go. As my
(32:19):
assistant said to me, I'm online. I'm online virtually to
get these I've been waiting for five hours. I didn't
get my tickets. When I used to hear people talk
about being those errortors, I was like, what do you mean,
You're waiting for five hours to get the damn tickets. Yeah,
and that's how I feel people are obsessed with one.
Speaker 6 (32:34):
Caitlin, I agree. I think there's definitely some correlations there.
I think also this idea that, like the snowball, will
keep growing the more hype everybody else is about it.
I've used this analogy. We have not done a great
job of creating community. And community is where people find
identity instead of just listening or watching.
Speaker 4 (32:54):
I am a swifty, not I listen to Taylor Swift.
Speaker 2 (32:58):
That's mean.
Speaker 6 (32:59):
This is a concept that's been used in really broad scale,
like really important things like voting. They changed the language
from I voted to I am a voter because they said,
we want your identity to be that you're someone that votes,
not that that's a thing that you sometimes do and
that works across every space. And if you look at
the research, there are very few things that people consider
(33:22):
part of their identity with the same weight that they
do say religion or their country, and one of them
is sports. Yeah, and so I think what we've seen
with people like Taylor Swift or Beyonce or Caitlyn Clark
is it goes beyond I like this person, I'm a
fan to my identity is I'm part of the beehive,
which is why I'm a swifty. They loved Clark. I'm
(33:44):
a case because they can create a narrative around going
to see her and watch her as opposed to just
I like basketball, or it's it's not women's basketball, it's
Kaitlyn Clark.
Speaker 2 (33:53):
Like.
Speaker 6 (33:53):
The way people have talked to me about her that
have never once talked to me about anything in women's sports,
despite me working in sports for a decade plus is
it's a different thing. And listen, you can be cynical
about it, and there are reasons to be cynical about
only caring about Kaitlin Clark and no one else, but
you can also say follow that up and see how
(34:15):
you can help everybody else with it too.
Speaker 4 (34:16):
Can call it up and build the game and grow
the game.
Speaker 2 (34:19):
All that and more in episode five, The Making of
a Rivalry. Kaitlin Clark versus Angel Reese is a be
Honest production in partnership with the Black Effect podcast Network
in iHeart Women's Sports. Written and executive produced by me
Carrie Champion. Supervising producer is Arlene Santana, produced by Jack
Vice Thomas, sound design and mastered by Dwayne Crawford. Associate
(34:41):
producer Olublusail Shabby. Naked Sports is a part of the
Black Effect podcast Network in iHeartMedia. Hey everybody, if you're
new to Naked Sports, welcome to the podcast, and for
those who've been with us in season one, thank you
for right now. We're kicking off season four with this
six episode dot that you're listening to right now, and
(35:02):
after that, Naked Sports will continue to live at the
intersection of sports, politics, and culture. We're covering all things
from the presidential race to the WNBA Rookie of the
Year contest. This season will be bold, as you can
already tell, no holds barred, but also we'll bring you
that same vulnerable storytelling technique that makes our show so
(35:23):
very unique. We appreciate you for being here and thank
you all for the support. We'll talk to you next week.
The Superman needed Lex Luthor, the Batman needed to joke.
And I don't need to pick to put Angel Reese
in some kind of villain as roll because I don't
consider her a villain.
Speaker 2 (00:11):
But I think every great player needs a foil.
Speaker 3 (00:13):
The reason why we watch it women's basketball is not
just because of one person.
Speaker 4 (00:16):
It's because of me too.
Speaker 5 (00:17):
You know.
Speaker 4 (00:17):
I don't think there should be any criticism for what
she did. I honestly didn't see it when the game
was going on.
Speaker 6 (00:22):
But the story became more compelling, and the desire to
watch and talk about it became more compelling when she
had a foil. Angel won a national championship.
Speaker 4 (00:31):
She has four million plus followers. She's at the met Galop.
Speaker 6 (00:34):
Sizza and Meg thee Stallion want to come sit courtside
and watch her.
Speaker 2 (00:37):
Naked Sports. The Making of a Rivalry a six episode
docu series that explores the media frenzy surrounding two super
novas in Kitlin Clark and Angel Reese. I'm your host,
Carrie Champion, and welcome to the Making of a Rivalry.
Speaker 6 (00:53):
Oh my.
Speaker 5 (00:56):
H to the National Championship Game.
Speaker 2 (01:00):
The twenty twenty three National Championship Game. LSU versus Iowa.
The American Airlines Arena in Dallas was alive with screaming
fans and notable dignitaries.
Speaker 5 (01:10):
Doctor Jill Biden the first lady in the building, alongside
the legend Billy Jane King.
Speaker 2 (01:17):
The narrative going into the Natty America's Darling has delivered
over and over again throughout the tournament. Clark had taken
a team of good players and elevated their playing style
and potential in an unprecedented way. This was Caitlin Clark's
moment to be cropped.
Speaker 5 (01:33):
There are stars and there are solar systems. Caitlyn Clark
is the latter.
Speaker 2 (01:40):
Television ratings told us how important this game was. Nine
point nine million viewers watched at home, and at the
time the game broke records, reportedly more views than any
women's college basketball game ever, any Stanley Cup game since
nineteen seventy three, the twenty twenty one NBA Finals, the
(02:00):
twenty twenty World Series, and the finale of the Last
of Us. These ladies delivered in this historic contest.
Speaker 5 (02:08):
Angel Rey's gorgeous delivery Inside.
Speaker 2 (02:10):
My friend and former colleague Ryan Ruco was on the
call with Rebecca Lobo.
Speaker 7 (02:15):
I'm calling the game, and first of all, LSU their
performance in the championship game is one of the greatest
shooting performances in the history of a National championship game.
They got contributions from all over the place. Alexis Morris
down the stretch was amazing. Jasmin Carson, who had really
struggled in the tournament, hit I think like five first
(02:37):
half threes.
Speaker 4 (02:37):
It was crazy. Oursoneral Fire Ange Dick from.
Speaker 7 (02:41):
Three you know LSU that whole year there was I
think there was a storyline around them which was accurate
about them being this very you know, fun group who
had a flamboyant style. They had really drawn in the fans.
They were setting records for attendance at the PMAC Center
(03:04):
in New Orleans, not just because of their winning, but
because of the way they played. I think l used
to use the term nil NILSU because they have these
players with different nil deals.
Speaker 8 (03:18):
Flauger, who has you know, Rotten Nation deal, Angel who
obviously has an incredible following off the court as well
as on, and who was bringing in a lot of
money with the nil as well, And so you had
this team that kind of felt like it felt like
they were you know, rock stars all season long, and
then they get to the championship game and they perform
(03:40):
the way they do.
Speaker 9 (03:45):
This super senior Jazmine Carson coming off the bench, scoring
seventeen points in the first half, including this ridiculous banked
half court shot at the buzzer that puts LSU up
double digits and there's just really no coming back from that.
Angel Reese looks like Moses Malone, you know, getting out
of every single offensive rebound. Alexis Morris is putting the
clams on Kaitlyn Clark.
Speaker 2 (04:05):
Sabrina Merchant covered the March Madness Tournament for the Athletic
In that arena, Would you get.
Speaker 4 (04:10):
Your first half of the arena?
Speaker 9 (04:11):
It was sort of like someone let the air out
because no one really knew what was happening. There was
an expectation of I was going to come in take
care of business, and it wasn't even close. Like LSU
jumped on them and were in control the entire person
half Carson.
Speaker 10 (04:28):
Nobody ever thought that that would boil down to would
it boiled down to? But I got to grace the
floor with two of the biggest female stars that we'll
ever see in our lifetime Angelica, Kit and Leclark, right,
and just to be in that in that moment and
see those who kind of just catastrophically become the face
(04:51):
of women's basketball. It was beautiful. It was something that
we needed and I'm glad I was on the Winnow's side, Ryan,
But overall, you look at that, when you look at
that game, it's like, wow, like this this just changed
our life. This kind of just changed the world, Like
this kind of just changed women's basketball as the whole
were on the biggest stage of being ourselves. It was beautiful.
(05:15):
Then I understand the part that I played in it,
but as a fan of it, I'm just grateful for
the part that angel and Caitlyn played in it, Like
you know what I'm saying, and the way that they
were able.
Speaker 2 (05:24):
To just.
Speaker 10 (05:26):
Man historically make that a moment, and man, I would
just be grateful to be a part of it.
Speaker 2 (05:31):
And LSU freshman familiar with fame beyond the court, Flauje
Johnson had ten seven and four ten points, seven rebounds,
and four assists.
Speaker 7 (05:41):
Johnson point grew up inside and Williams all about finish
a really nice job.
Speaker 2 (05:46):
John She did more than just play a part. Her
contribution was invaluable, John fifth, and she will always be
known as a member of a sorority that changed the
way we see women's sports.
Speaker 10 (05:59):
I felt like it was like dang, like we finally
get our just do like you know what I'm saying,
Like it's finally time for women to be on the map.
Like it's finally time where because I've seen this commercial
was like when a young girl want to go play basketball,
they don't go say I want to go play women's basketball.
They say I want to go play basketball, right, And
(06:20):
I was like, this is our time, Like we're gonna
inspire so many little girls to go out and be
confident and be you no matter what.
Speaker 2 (06:28):
You know what I'm saying, this is their time. The
twenty twenty three National Championship Game is known as the
Big Game because history will remember how these women, while
just being themselves, used the national stage to open up
the lens and remove a filter that shadowed the sport.
And when I use the word shadow, I'm referring to
an archetype that existed in professional basketball and as a result,
(06:51):
these ladies never received all of their shine.
Speaker 11 (06:54):
I'm Seney gommickay A two time WB ulcer in ESPN
analyst and host. I was in the league for ten
years a decade, and it was really cool because I
feel like I was a tweeter, you know. Gone were
the days where I think a lot of times people
looked at the WNBA is like, oh, what is this
a joke? People started to see the copective fire. People
started to see that our game speaks for itself. And now,
(07:16):
I mean I probably left like a year or two
early because everyone's fying charter flights.
Speaker 4 (07:22):
Their minds are better.
Speaker 11 (07:23):
But I'm still grateful and happy to see the league grow.
These women are household names. Where they go, they stop,
camera shoot, They are the center of attention and that's.
Speaker 4 (07:33):
What our league needed.
Speaker 11 (07:34):
But more importantly, what I love is that this new
generation of stars, they do things unapologetically themselves.
Speaker 4 (07:41):
They are the best at what they do.
Speaker 11 (07:43):
They deliver in the biggest moments, Like I never expected
that we would be having this type of season, not
only from individual performances but also collective you know experiences.
You go to WNBA games, they're packed, they're getting upgraded,
they're sold out. You go to WB events, people are
waiting in lines, get autographs, merch is literally out.
Speaker 4 (08:02):
Of stores, and so I was worried.
Speaker 11 (08:04):
For a hot minute.
Speaker 2 (08:05):
I was like, oh, where is this discourse going?
Speaker 11 (08:07):
LRD to help us? But I do think it only
made the stars shine brighter.
Speaker 2 (08:12):
Cheney and Goo Makay, like most of us, could not
predict how one game would change the world, or how
one gesture could create a narrative. So let's go back
to the game. LSU was up at the half and
in control, but with a little under three minutes left
in the third quarter, the momentum shifts.
Speaker 8 (08:31):
Cha Shinado has made it a seven pointeen.
Speaker 9 (08:35):
There's you know, that little extra war when Iowa makes
it's come back in the third quarter, and you think, like, okay,
it's like what we think is going to happen actually
gonna happen.
Speaker 2 (08:42):
But LSU was not to be denied. They were bigger,
they were faster, and they were just better. With a
little over a minute left in the fourth quarter, poor
good for the dad due So it took us to
the moment, the moment that change. I believe how people
(09:03):
started to watch women's basketball. It's clear that LSU has one.
They're at the free throw line and I see Angel
talking mad trash.
Speaker 4 (09:12):
So it's interesting because why I didn't even notice that
it was happening.
Speaker 2 (09:16):
I didn't need to see it.
Speaker 10 (09:17):
Like I was crying and I was going to hug
Coach Mokey.
Speaker 2 (09:22):
I was hugging Coach Mokey.
Speaker 10 (09:24):
What I'm saying like, I wasn't even I didn't even
know what was going on.
Speaker 7 (09:29):
I think what I said on air was just Angel
Reese letting Kaylin Clark know a ring is coming.
Speaker 2 (09:34):
When making of a rivalry returns. Why the ring me
gesture in the last few moments of the big game
sounded an alarm.
Speaker 7 (09:42):
In that moment. What I always think is important is
a play by play broadcaster is just describing what's happening,
you know, Like, that's not that's not the moment for
me to give a hot take. And I wouldn't have
even had one in that moment. But I just felt
like I knew. I was like, as it happened, I knew.
(10:04):
I was like, Okay, this is going to be a
talking point after this game is over. This is certainly
going to be a talking point because people will always
latch onto anything that feels juicy or dramatic or controversial.
Speaker 5 (10:16):
Back in a moment, and Angel Reese knows a ring
is coming.
Speaker 2 (10:33):
I remember watching this game and I was in shock,
shocked by what I thought was going to be a
win for sure for Iowa. You must remember a few
days before they had beaten an undefeated South Carolina team
and it wasn't even close.
Speaker 9 (10:47):
South Carolina comes in as the defending national champion, starting
five that has lost maybe eight or nine games together
in their last four years, undefeated throughout the regular season.
It's a nightcap on that Friday, the Final four LSU,
who has already beaten Virginia Tech, which in hindsight is
a dramatically.
Speaker 4 (11:04):
More important game than we gave it credit for in
the time.
Speaker 9 (11:06):
But you know, Caitlin leads Iowa to this upset of
South Carolina, and the energy in that building is unlike
anything I could remember previously being present for just live,
you know, the tension of like watching a goliath get
slain right, Like, you just don't see that very often.
Speaker 4 (11:25):
This is the Caitlin Clark Show. And she puts up.
Speaker 9 (11:27):
Forty points another magnificent performance and takes down the Giants
and it's, oh my god, like, what did we just witness?
Speaker 2 (11:35):
The world watched as a young woman playing for IOWA
single handedly dismantled the current national champions. There were very
few words to describe what was happening in real time.
Arguably one of the most surreal moments in college basketball.
Speaker 1 (11:49):
So it was a shot that Iowa was able to
knock them out just because again, all around, South Carolina
was builed as the better team, but Iowa had the
at her game.
Speaker 4 (12:00):
They showed up that day and it didn't seem like
a fluke either.
Speaker 9 (12:03):
It looked like she was in complete control of that game,
which is not something you expect to see against again
undefeated FENDI national champion, like multiple players going to the pros,
best defense in the country, all.
Speaker 4 (12:15):
Of that, you name it.
Speaker 2 (12:17):
They had every Alcolay.
Speaker 4 (12:18):
I think that's when the switch flips.
Speaker 9 (12:19):
She's about to serve herself as the greatest college player
at the generation. Everybody's tuning in to watch her play
and what happens.
Speaker 5 (12:29):
Has captured it's very first national championship.
Speaker 2 (12:35):
The final score LSU one two, Iowa eighty five. Ryan
Rugo had called a perfect game, but he knew the
outcome had deeper implications. It was a huge win for
women's sports. It would bring more visibility and recognition to
a game that was already growing, But the loss would
also elevate the vitriol of an emotional fan base. So
(12:57):
in the aftermath of the big game, the conversation wasn't
about an incredible turnaround for the LSU program in kim
moulki second year. It wasn't about how LSU had dominated
for the majority of the game. It wasn't even about
what an incredible display of talent we all witnessed in
the championship. The sole focus for the media and the
(13:17):
fans was the ring me can't see me gesture, And
it was nasty.
Speaker 7 (13:23):
When someone trash talk is trash talks the darling of
you know, the country in a game in which you
know she's going to lose, you know people are going
to get frustrated by that and upset by that and
mad by that, and so I kind of I was
able to process like, oh, that's going to be that's
going to be a story in the aftermath.
Speaker 9 (13:43):
As Caitlin said repeatedly after the game, like she'd been
dished out the same stuff for five previous games while
she was winning. But like you said, the optics make
people uncomfortable like there was there's a racial element, which
I mean we let it slide on the men's side, right,
like if the male athlete taunts another male athlete, doesn't
really not if they're black and white. It's just two
men going at one another. But there was an extra layer.
Speaker 4 (14:05):
Because they're women.
Speaker 9 (14:06):
Because we don't let women show their emotions like that
in public. They were not given that same level of grace.
Speaker 2 (14:16):
Do you think that coverage to help create a rivalry
if you were, I mean, I had.
Speaker 9 (14:22):
No problem with the rivalry being created, because I think
that's good for sport. I think it's good that we
have two great players who are competing for the same goal,
two great teams that are competing for the same goal,
and they run up against one another, and if there's
a little bit of dislike, that's fine. I think everything
that has occurred between Caitlin and Angel has been perfectly
healthy between the two of them, and between Iowa, LSU
and Indiana Chicago's totally fine. The way Angel was portrayed, though,
(14:47):
was not fair to her. I mean I think about
just like some of the language. I don't want to
call anybody out in particular, but just the language that
was used about her like that she was classless and
things that are much worse than that was uncalled for
and not correct and has painted Angel rais and a light,
(15:09):
like a negative light that she hasn't really been able
to come out from, which is truly unfortunate, because like
that was a crowning moment for her, right like literally
national title of most Outstanding Claire, she gets to go
to the White House, and all of a sudden, she's
the villain.
Speaker 4 (15:21):
And I do think that.
Speaker 9 (15:25):
There's a natural like it's one thing to just be
like the foil to Kaitlin Clark, it's another thing to
be the one everyone's rooting against. And it was just
really unfortunate that this glorious moment for her was tainted
by everybody getting in their feelings about a little bit
of trash talk, which again, that's Angel, that's Caitlin, that's
(15:50):
what they do. And I think that's why we enjoy
sports is because we.
Speaker 4 (15:55):
Like a little fire, we like a little competition.
Speaker 2 (15:57):
And it is your right of passage, just a rite
a passage you lose, I get to talk to that
is the right of passage. And I've said that over
and over again. It's so frustrating. The way in which
you're describing this is really eloquent, and it's also interesting
to see it from your perspective. But to your earlier point,
we still have this conversation some sixteen months later. Why
(16:19):
have we as a society, we as a culture, basketball culture,
we as members of this entity, refuse to let go
of the black versus white and angels the villain and
Caitlin is being bullied.
Speaker 9 (16:34):
Yeah, I wish there was a better answer for why
we have not been able to let go of the
black versus white, But that's just aciety.
Speaker 1 (16:43):
T Rika Foster Brasby, I am a women's basketball reporter
and analyst.
Speaker 2 (16:48):
Funny story, during the.
Speaker 1 (16:50):
Final four, I was actually on assignment where I had
a chance to talk to each and every team, and
I had a different angle for what I.
Speaker 4 (16:59):
Was talking to you to all the final four teams.
Speaker 1 (17:01):
When it got to Iowa, my angle was, you know,
you guys think that Caitlyn Clark talks a lot of
smack on the court. I want to know more about
the smack talk that she does on the court and
if she doesn't in the locker room. And about three
players said to me that when she did this on
the court. It was not at all to a player.
(17:22):
It was actually to one of the assistant coaches who
had an inside joke with her about something that they,
you know, were working on in practice, and that was.
Speaker 4 (17:32):
The response to the coach.
Speaker 1 (17:34):
But from the camera angle, it looked as if they
were doing it to a different player. And even Hailey
van Litz said, she didn't do that to me, like,
that was not towards me at all. She was playing
for Louisville at the time, so she was like, it
was not to me. I don't know where people got
that from. So there's already a misconception that she's doing
(17:55):
this to players as a means of kind of talking crap,
when the reality is she wasn't doing it to players
at all.
Speaker 2 (18:02):
So it kind of fueled.
Speaker 1 (18:04):
They kind of fanned a fire that actually no one
even knew existed seriously, because it was not towards any
player whatsoever. So we certainly being there live, didn't see
it and had no idea that she did it. It
was only after we started to see the replay from
the actual telecast that we could see that Angel Reese was.
Speaker 4 (18:24):
Like, oh, okay, got it.
Speaker 2 (18:28):
However, there was this conception or perception rather that she
was doing that to players throughout the tournament. At least
I saw her at once say you know, like get
out of here. You're like, oh yeah, she told was.
Speaker 1 (18:41):
Talking absolutely, and so that was that's a thing like
she which is what prompted me to do the story
because it was like, girl, you talked, you do this,
but it just so happened that particular gesture. The irony
is that that particular gesture, which wasn't for a player,
is the one gesture that actually sparked what would probably
(19:04):
be or what looks to be one of the biggest
rivalries in college basketball. Here's broadcast journalist Jamel Hill. Yeah,
I think about the names that Angel Reese got called on.
So because you know, most like a lot of people,
you watch the game, you have Twitter open, you know,
you're seeing the real time reaction and by some pretty
grown ass people calling Angel Reyes out of her name
(19:27):
because of what she did. And I'm like, hold on,
once again, it just proves, and this is a staple
in this country, it's not the what, it's the who.
It's always the who. Because she don't look like she
ain't asking permission to do nothing. She like, Yo, this
is what I am all that like this, this is
what it is like. I got my hair, my lashes.
He's like, I'm doing me And so I love that
(19:50):
boldness about her. There's a boldness that's there.
Speaker 2 (19:52):
She said in one of her most famous quotes, if
you want me to bill and up be the villain,
I'll be the villain. That was something I felt marginalized women,
Black women more specifically can understand. I can be tough
all day. I can do all the things you need
me to do, because that is the role that has
been to signed, and that's probably where I'm most comfortable.
I understand the assignment, and that's probably where I'm most
(20:13):
comfortable because when I have tried to show vulnerability, it
doesn't It's never received. And the only time you hear
me or see me or make or there's movement is
when I am a villain. And that's when I could
relate to her. I think a lot of black women
can relate to her in that way. Why is it
so easy to call her or make her the foil?
(20:33):
Why is that easy for the fans who are the
new fans, the people who are watching it behind the scenes,
the people who might just meet her. Why is that
that assignment given to her so comfortably.
Speaker 1 (20:44):
Well, I think because a lot of people have mischaracterized
her and her passion for the game, and especially because
she is and we've seen this so much in sports,
she's the type of player like.
Speaker 2 (21:00):
If she's good, she's gonna let you know.
Speaker 4 (21:02):
You know what I'm saying.
Speaker 2 (21:03):
But what's wrong with that?
Speaker 4 (21:04):
Man do it?
Speaker 2 (21:05):
Nothing, it's wrong.
Speaker 4 (21:06):
Men do it all the time.
Speaker 2 (21:07):
There is nothing wrong with that at all.
Speaker 1 (21:09):
But when you're a black woman doing that, you're gonna
pay a different price. When you're a prosecutor trying to
take down a felon, you're gonna pay a different price. Yeah,
It's like, it's gonna be different, it's gonna be viewed differently.
It's gonna be viewed, it's gonna make people uncomfortable. You know,
they don't you know, they don't like it.
Speaker 2 (21:27):
And so.
Speaker 1 (21:29):
But I like that she hasn't allowed that to change her,
you know what I'm saying. And so I think to
have that kind of spirit at that age is really
something because it's something that a lot of women have
to grow into and she just sort of naturally has it,
Like I'm here, and I'm not afraid to tell you
that I'm here.
Speaker 2 (21:47):
I'm not shrinking when I come into the room.
Speaker 4 (21:48):
You know how it gets hurt for her? I do.
Speaker 1 (21:50):
I think it comes at a price, and it comes
at a toll because mentally, absolutely.
Speaker 2 (21:55):
The social media trolls had themselves a time. Grown men
were calling a Jewel Rees and the LSU team some
pretty horrific names. Within minutes, the trending topics on Twitter
the game Caitlin Clark, Angel Reese, you can't see me.
Even CNN had called and asked me to be on
the morning show to talk about the ring me gesture.
Speaker 4 (22:14):
Joya's right now was Seena contributor Kerrie Chafvick.
Speaker 2 (22:17):
I remember thinking, we just witnessed one of the greatest
college basketball games in recent memory. Women are finally an
invaluable commodity in athletics. But yet and still we are
all focused on the optics. But I also know it's
a captivating storyline.
Speaker 12 (22:34):
I remember like Angel getting called class list and I
was like, and this is for me.
Speaker 4 (22:39):
It was like, here we go again.
Speaker 2 (22:41):
keV on stage is a comedian and a culture expert.
Speaker 12 (22:45):
For me, it makes me want to defend angel.
Speaker 2 (22:47):
Okay, so your perception of her is how you see America.
Speaker 12 (22:50):
Yeah, absolutely. I think I am very pro black, straight up,
and I'm a champion for black women and I'm going
to defend black women. So it makes me want to
be like, all right, Angel, I got you. And Caitlyn,
I'm sorry, it's you know, they're not like us. They're
not like us, they're not like us. But I don't
want to do that to her because she's twenty years old,
(23:12):
twenty one, twenty two years old from Iowa. So she's
also getting a whole new like media landscape and all
of this, And I think social media made it way
less about basketball very quickly, Like Caitlyn's fans were and
angel Rees fans, everybody like dug their heels in the sand,
and you like chose the side based on how you
(23:33):
see the world as opposed to the actual basketball being played.
Speaker 2 (23:37):
And the basketball that was and is currently being played
is nothing short or spectacular a year and a half
removed from the big Game, and I know these ladies
feel as if they're not being heard, and.
Speaker 9 (23:49):
It comes to death threats when it comes to people
finding like I'm talking about, people have.
Speaker 4 (23:53):
Come down to my address. No, like it's come down
to that.
Speaker 2 (23:57):
The conversations about the new fans and race are still
very relevant as the league and the fans adjust to
new standards of expectations. The WNBA finally released a statement
last week after the Indiana Fever Connecticut Sun playoff series.
Caitlin Clark even asked security to remove a heckling fan.
The statement reads, in part, while we welcome a growing
(24:19):
fan base, the WNBA will not tolerate racists, derogatory or
threatening comments made about players, teams, and anyone affiliated with
the league. League Security is actively monitoring threat related activity
and will work directly with teams and arenas to take
appropriate measures involving law enforcement as necessary. Hecklers and sick
(24:41):
of fans will always be a part of the sport.
I know these ladies are aware of that. However, this
emboldened group of women have zero tolerance for disrespect.
Speaker 3 (24:50):
Kaylen has come hold different audience also that she's ringing.
So I think said they have done great things for
the w in general, but we already had stars and
all we just didn't I guess.
Speaker 4 (25:01):
The eyes on it. I think it was necessary. I mean,
but we have Asian Wilson a god.
Speaker 3 (25:07):
Thomas got Brandon store Like, we already have stars, but
I think that they have definitely helped to.
Speaker 5 (25:12):
Grow the game.
Speaker 2 (25:12):
That was this year's most improved player, Djona Carrington of
the Connecticut Sun, which by the way, is the team
that swept Caitlin Clark in the Indiana Fever. But even
Carrington knows there's something special that Caitlyn Clark has brought
to the league. Things changed dramatically when the league realized
Clark felt bigger than just basketball. One of the league
(25:33):
greades and gold medalists, Alyssa Thomas, I think we were.
Speaker 13 (25:37):
Just reflecting a few days ago about how tell, when
we first came in the league, we are had roommates
until you're about six years into the league, so you know,
it's definitely come a long way from that to charge
of fights, to just the attention around him.
Speaker 2 (25:52):
So that's why right now, Chartered flights, better, hotel accommodations,
more marketing money, merchandise sales, Skyrocket sold out arenas. I
know some people might not want to hear this, but
there was the league before Clark and then the league
after Clark. And while I just highlighted the benefits of
Clark in the league. Trust me, it also comes with
(26:14):
some bulls back in a moment, T s.
Speaker 13 (26:22):
Yeah, did you when you went and kind of swatted
to Caitlin, did you intend to hit her in the eye?
Speaker 4 (26:31):
And if so, could you just garth mellout either way?
Could you talk about what happened on that play? I
just I don't even know why. I wouldn't tip to
hit anybody in the eye. That doesn't even make sense
to me. But no, I did it. I didn't know
I hit her. Actually, I was trying to make a
play on the ball, and I.
Speaker 3 (26:48):
Guess I followed through and I hear her, so obviously
it's never intentional. That's not even like the type of
player that I am.
Speaker 11 (26:54):
So yeah, did you and Marina laugh about it afterwards?
Speaker 4 (26:57):
It looked like you there was Later on the game
they cut you guys laughing about it.
Speaker 3 (27:02):
No, I just told you I didn't even know I hitter,
so I can't lew something like it now happened.
Speaker 2 (27:08):
That exchange between veteran journalist Christine Brennan and Connecticut Sun
shooting guard dejan A. Carrington illustrates the frustration that players
are dealing with in a league that has Caitlyn in it.
During the first game of the playoff series, Carrington made
a play on the ball and during the tussle, Clark
was poked in the eye. Clark says the poke in
the eye was not intentional, and for her part, she's
(27:30):
tried to diffuse that angry mob that wanted to verbally
attack and threaten Carrington on social media because of a
basketball play. Players in the w are injured, inadvertently poked
in the eye, double teamed, shoved, pushed around. It's called defense, folks.
Sometimes it can be too aggressive, but for twenty eight
years it's been happening. But in a league with Clark
(27:54):
in it, everything that involves her feels too precious and emotional,
and her emotional fan base has decided to make this
an issue. But it's not only her fans. According to
the Players Association, the media is also culpable. Brennan should
ask the question to Carrington about the play, but when
(28:15):
she followed up the question with what seemed to be
an opinion, well, the WNBPA quickly responded with an elevated ether.
In their statement, the Players Association has done something I've
never seen before when it comes to this league set
firm boundaries, identified the problem and demanded a call to action.
(28:38):
This week is dedicated to celebrating and amplifying Asia, Caitlin
Dejane and no FISA for their hard work and truly
exceptional performances all season long. But we will take this
moment now to stand up for them and the rest
of our members, every single one of them, because we
call bs to unprofessional members of the media like Christine Brennan.
(29:02):
You are not fooling anyone. The so called interview in
the name of journalism was a blatant attempt to bait
a professional athlete and to participating in a narrative that
is false and is designed to feel racist, homophobic, and
misogynistic vitriol on social media. You have abused your privileges
and do not deserve the credentials issued to you, Signed
(29:26):
the executive Director, Terry Carmichael Jackson. That statement goes on
to read that the Association understands the league must have
a relationship with the media in order to continue growth,
but they want USA today the paper. Brennan writes for
to examine her intentions as a journalist. Every single time
(29:46):
I read that statement. I think this league is stretching
and growing and finding its voice. This league is also
creating boundaries. This league, in real time, refuses to be bullied, marginalized,
and or manipulated. Because the world is now watching, this
league is setting a standard of expectations for themselves, the fans,
(30:08):
and the media. It feels empowering and also inspiring, and
Angel Reese not long after shared the following. For the
past two years, the media has benefited from my pain
and me being villainized to create a narrative. They allowed this,
This was beneficial to them. I sometimes share my experiences
(30:29):
of these things that have happened to me, but I've
also allowed this to happen to me for way too long,
and now other players in this league are dealing with
and experiencing the same things. This isn't okay. Anything beyond
criticism about playing the game we love is wrong. I'm
sorry to all the players that have and continue to
(30:51):
experience the same things I have. This is when I
started my podcast to take my voice back and create
the narrative of who I really am. At the end
of the day, I don't want an apology, nor do
I think this will ever stop. But something has to change.
Like I said, these ladies are finding their voice and
(31:11):
before anyone listening to this podcast or watching feels as
if this is an assault on Caitlyn Clark. Please stop.
Caitlin Clark's a great player. I'm sure we will see
her as a generational talent. But there is a new
following of fans and they are toxic. Caitlyn has called
them trolls and not fans, and it should be called out.
(31:35):
But the league with Caitlyn Clark in it arguably is
a better place and will be a better place. Her
impact is undeniable, akin to a Beyonce or a Taylor Swift.
Just like there's the Beehive or Swifties, there are Clerky's,
for lack of a better term, I think there's a
Taylor Swift effect with Caitlyn Clark. It feels like everything
(31:58):
she touches, everywhere she goes selling out arenas. People want
to be around her, People love her. I have people
asking me about the game because of her who've never
asked about the game. There's this, yeah, this very this.
I have to be a part of her, be around her.
What is she doing, what is she saying? Do you
see the correlation? She has a tailor swift effect. I'm
selling out arenas if I want to go. As my
(32:19):
assistant said to me, I'm online. I'm online virtually to
get these I've been waiting for five hours. I didn't
get my tickets. When I used to hear people talk
about being those errortors, I was like, what do you mean,
You're waiting for five hours to get the damn tickets. Yeah,
and that's how I feel people are obsessed with one.
Speaker 6 (32:34):
Caitlin, I agree. I think there's definitely some correlations there.
I think also this idea that, like the snowball, will
keep growing the more hype everybody else is about it.
I've used this analogy. We have not done a great
job of creating community. And community is where people find
identity instead of just listening or watching.
Speaker 4 (32:54):
I am a swifty, not I listen to Taylor Swift.
Speaker 2 (32:58):
That's mean.
Speaker 6 (32:59):
This is a concept that's been used in really broad scale,
like really important things like voting. They changed the language
from I voted to I am a voter because they said,
we want your identity to be that you're someone that votes,
not that that's a thing that you sometimes do and
that works across every space. And if you look at
the research, there are very few things that people consider
(33:22):
part of their identity with the same weight that they
do say religion or their country, and one of them
is sports. Yeah, and so I think what we've seen
with people like Taylor Swift or Beyonce or Caitlyn Clark
is it goes beyond I like this person, I'm a
fan to my identity is I'm part of the beehive,
which is why I'm a swifty. They loved Clark. I'm
(33:44):
a case because they can create a narrative around going
to see her and watch her as opposed to just
I like basketball, or it's it's not women's basketball, it's
Kaitlyn Clark.
Speaker 2 (33:53):
Like.
Speaker 6 (33:53):
The way people have talked to me about her that
have never once talked to me about anything in women's sports,
despite me working in sports for a decade plus is
it's a different thing. And listen, you can be cynical
about it, and there are reasons to be cynical about
only caring about Kaitlin Clark and no one else, but
you can also say follow that up and see how
(34:15):
you can help everybody else with it too.
Speaker 4 (34:16):
Can call it up and build the game and grow
the game.
Speaker 2 (34:19):
All that and more in episode five, The Making of
a Rivalry. Kaitlin Clark versus Angel Reese is a be
Honest production in partnership with the Black Effect podcast Network
in iHeart Women's Sports. Written and executive produced by me
Carrie Champion. Supervising producer is Arlene Santana, produced by Jack
Vice Thomas, sound design and mastered by Dwayne Crawford. Associate
(34:41):
producer Olublusail Shabby. Naked Sports is a part of the
Black Effect podcast Network in iHeartMedia. Hey everybody, if you're
new to Naked Sports, welcome to the podcast, and for
those who've been with us in season one, thank you
for right now. We're kicking off season four with this
six episode dot that you're listening to right now, and
(35:02):
after that, Naked Sports will continue to live at the
intersection of sports, politics, and culture. We're covering all things
from the presidential race to the WNBA Rookie of the
Year contest. This season will be bold, as you can
already tell, no holds barred, but also we'll bring you
that same vulnerable storytelling technique that makes our show so
(35:23):
very unique. We appreciate you for being here and thank
you all for the support. We'll talk to you next week.
Popular Podcasts
1. Stuff You Should Know
If you've ever wanted to know about champagne, satanism, the Stonewall Uprising, chaos theory, LSD, El Nino, true crime and Rosa Parks, then look no further. Josh and Chuck have you covered.
2. Dateline NBC
Current and classic episodes, featuring compelling true-crime mysteries, powerful documentaries and in-depth investigations.
3. Crime Junkie
If you can never get enough true crime... Congratulations, you’ve found your people.