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September 23, 2024 34 mins

This conversation delves into the complexities of race, rivalry, and media narratives in women's basketball, focusing on the contrasting portrayals of Angel Reese and Caitlin Clark.

Cari Champion interviews Ron James, Reese's former AAU Coach. They discuss Angel's character on and off the court and the role of family in athlete development.

The discussion highlights the importance of rivalry in sports, the evolution of women's basketball as it gains recognition and respect, and players like Angel Reese's impact on the game.

Cari also speaks with journalist Mitchell Northam, and Angel's former LSU teammate, FlauJae Johnson.

Other voices include Ryan Ruocco, Sabreena Merchant, Kev on Stage, and more... 

Connect: @CariChampion @NakedwithCariChampion

Check out NAKED SPORTS on YouTube

See omnystudio.com/listener for privacy information.

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Transcript

Episode Transcript

Available transcripts are automatically generated. Complete accuracy is not guaranteed.
Speaker 1 (00:07):
Anybody who covers women's basketball and has been in it
for a while understands the layers of race when it
comes to this sport and the way that it's covered
and the way that you know, the women have or
have not been promoted throughout the years for so long
in this country.

Speaker 2 (00:27):
You know, I think we've seen black women in our.

Speaker 1 (00:32):
League, in the WNBA who have not been marketed in
the way that they should have been.

Speaker 3 (00:38):
She's getting that villainification for not doing anything that is
so harmful to the game other than just being her
competitive self, very similar to what we're seeing in all
these other sports. So I think she just took ownership
of it instead of letting it letting other people write
the narrative for herself.

Speaker 4 (00:54):
Black athletes and white athletes do the same thing. It's
looked at very differently. And what Angela, I was like,
here we here we go. Like so as a black person,
I'm like, nah, I got to ride for you because
I got to defend black women. I'm going to be
on your side. So that's what I remember, Like it
become it becoming a huge, huge thing, And I remember

(01:15):
they played the next year and I remember saying, you know,
I did make my joke. I was like, Race War
two is happening, happening, happening.

Speaker 5 (01:24):
The Superman needed Lex Luthor, the Batman needed the Joker.

Speaker 6 (01:28):
And I don't mean to put Angel Rees in some
kind of villain this role, because I don't consider her
a villain.

Speaker 7 (01:33):
But I think every great player needs a foil.

Speaker 8 (01:35):
The reason why we watching women's basketball is not just
because of one person.

Speaker 9 (01:38):
It's because of me too.

Speaker 7 (01:39):
You know.

Speaker 10 (01:39):
I don't think there should be any criticism for what
she did.

Speaker 11 (01:41):
I honestly didn't see it when the game was going on.

Speaker 12 (01:44):
But the story became more compelling, and the desire to
watch and talk about it became more compelling when she
had a foil.

Speaker 13 (01:50):
Angel won a national championship.

Speaker 12 (01:53):
She has four million plus followers. She's at the met Gala.

Speaker 7 (01:56):
Sizza and mag.

Speaker 12 (01:57):
Thee Stallion want to come sit courtside and watch her.

Speaker 5 (02:00):
Naked Sports. The Making of a Rivalry a six episode
docu series that explores the media frenzy surrounding two supernovas
and Kitlin Clark and Angel Reese. I'm your host, Carrie Champion,
and welcome to the Making of a Rivalry. It's twenty
twenty four, and yet I'm still struck by how difficult

(02:20):
it is to have honest conversations about race. The complicated
and often overlooked history of racism in this country, in
my opinion, is a big part of why Angel Reese
has been cast in the role of the villain while
Kitlin Clark is embraced as the darling. We live in
a social media driven world that thrives on division, where
preconceived notions about these young women are shaped by their

(02:44):
skin color or how they carry themselves. The narratives are
often written before they even step on the court. Recently,
WNBA Commissioner Kathy Engelbert was asked to confront this racial
divide head on, acknowledging the unspoken tension surrounding these two
supers stars.

Speaker 14 (03:01):
It is a little that bird Magic moment if you
recall from nineteen seventy nine, when those two rookies came
in from a big college rivalry, one white, one black,
and so we have that moment with these two. But
the one thing I know about sports, you need rivalry.
That's what makes people watch. They want to watch games
of consequence between rivals. They don't want everybody being nice
to one another. So social media is different today than

(03:23):
it was in nineteen seventy nine when it didn't exist.
But you know, I always tell the players, you know,
I was told a long time ago. If someone's typing
something in and you wouldn't ask their advice, ignore it.

Speaker 5 (03:33):
There's that word again.

Speaker 7 (03:35):
Ignore.

Speaker 5 (03:36):
Ignore a fan base that criticizes and identifies you based
on the color of your skin or your sexual orientation.
Ignore the social media mobs who threaten you for just
existing and doing your job. No, Kathy, that's not the answer.
Because I am writing this series in real time. I
have to be honest. I was outraged when I heard

(03:57):
Kathy Inglebirst's response. It felt dismissive, and I wasn't alone.
Many of the players share the same anger, feeling their
voices and experiences really didn't matter to a commissioner who
is charged with governing the WNBA into a new era.

Speaker 7 (04:14):
There's no doubt about it.

Speaker 15 (04:15):
The players were disappointed in how Kathy Engelbert handled this moment,
and what they really wanted her to say was just
flat out that this racism, homophobia, misogyny that a lot
of the players are experiencing is not okay. And Alicia
Clark was one of the players I spoke with at
Ace's practiced yesterday, and she said that that's all they
really wanted, but it's heard to just say it's not okay,

(04:36):
and she acknowledged that there is this darker turn that
a lot of the fans are maybe how they're interacting
with the players, the sorts of vitriol that they're directing
towards players, and that it's beyond just basketball, that it
really is seeping into that racism, that homophobic and that
misogynistic language, and so that's something that they really felt

(04:56):
like was a missed opportunity from Kathy Engelbert to really
address this. We don't support this sort of behavior in
our league.

Speaker 5 (05:03):
A few days after this missed opportunity to address a
problem that the league has dealt with since its inception,
the commissioner apologized to players in a letter and reportedly
met with a few players as well, in part saying
my answer missed the mark, and I'm sorry. The commissioner's
response was painfully familiar to me. It's the same type

(05:23):
of response I've heard every single time I went to
an employer about the experiences and the racial undertones I
face as a black woman in this world. I don't
want to generalize, but I need to be clear. If
we do not start having these uncomfortable conversations, we'll never learn,
We'll never move past the divisive ideologies that continue to

(05:44):
pit white against black, keeping us trapped in the same
cycles of misunderstanding and separation. Which brings me back to
angel We caught up with her a few weeks before
her season ending injury when she was in Los Angeles
playing against the Sparks and asked how she's been able
to adjust to the highs and lows of fame.

Speaker 8 (06:03):
We've all made mistakes, and we've all been down.

Speaker 16 (06:06):
We all haven't had break days.

Speaker 8 (06:07):
But I lived by the quote every day that's sun nostime.
But that's why I love tomorrow enough Voglo rolla, And
I always love that because every day is not going
to be a great day, but it's always tomorrow, and
I always look forward to tomorrow.

Speaker 7 (06:18):
I look forward to how does so many fans come?

Speaker 8 (06:20):
I here, y'all my name, and y'all my teammate's name,
and another oppicuerity to help pickgang grow.

Speaker 5 (06:25):
Angelise is a different type of player in the women's game.
At twenty two years old. She's aware of how she's
perceived in the media. She's also painfully aware of the
role that's been assigned, yet she continues to show up
and bring her full self to work. I do not
know where she gets this confidence from. I don't know
if it's contrived or if it's really true, but it

(06:46):
feels authentic to me. Angel Rees is doing more than
enough to help the game grow, but for now. Her
rookie season ended. On September sixth. During a home game
in Chicago, Reece hit a three pointer and fell back
on her wrist.

Speaker 7 (07:00):
So, yeah, no, I heard my wrists. I am out
for the season.

Speaker 16 (07:03):
I fell on my hand when I got the em one,
but I fell back, fell on my hand, and it
is a small crack in my bone. Basically, the doctors
told me that I could either not get surgery or
I have surgery. The risk of not having surgery I
could literally have authoritis at twenty two years old, but
that wasn't an option. The bone could literally crack and

(07:26):
lytically shadow.

Speaker 8 (07:27):
Right now.

Speaker 16 (07:27):
It's like a hairline, literally a hairline like shatter, not.

Speaker 7 (07:32):
Even not big. But they're going to put like a small,
little screw in it, and I.

Speaker 16 (07:36):
Wasn't going for getting any bigger and long term. I
literally could have like not played anymore because my bone
is this is a very hard place to heal because
the bluffalo is.

Speaker 7 (07:47):
Like literally solidal to none.

Speaker 9 (07:49):
So that was an option.

Speaker 7 (07:50):
So I'm getting surgery.

Speaker 16 (07:52):
I'm litical beto hard cast for six four weeks, and
then I'm going to be in a soft cast for
two weeks that is removed, and then I'm back.

Speaker 7 (08:01):
So six weeks I'll be back.

Speaker 12 (08:03):
I just saw last night that she's out for the
rest of the year, and obviously you never want to
see anybody go down with injury, so you know, that
just breaks my heart and I just wish for a
speedya and quick recovery for her.

Speaker 5 (08:17):
Angel Reese was born in Randallstown, Maryland. Reece will tell
anyone that she's one of Baltimore's finest. She played high
school ball at Saint Francis Academy. But long before Angel
Reese was a superstar on the collegiate and professional level,
she made a name for herself on the AAU circuit
playing for Team Takeover in Baltimore. Here's her coach, Ron Jenny,

(08:39):
So you were playing. You were sitting in the gym
watching Angel play, and you were talking to this guy
who wasn't yes and talking.

Speaker 9 (08:45):
To this gentleman.

Speaker 17 (08:46):
I realized after the game when Angel walked up to
with her grandfather, so her mom couldn't bring her to
the workout that I had scheduled because it was a
scheduled conflict.

Speaker 9 (08:56):
But mom said it was okay for.

Speaker 17 (08:58):
Her to go as long as her for grandfather could
take them, and he, you know, agreed to bring her
to the workout. And by the time we were done
with the workout, we were in a gym, and through
our conversations, he really felt strongly that this was the place,
the right place for Angel and her growth in development.
More so a family affair, grandmother and grandfather were just
like they're just the most supportive grandparents you can believe.

(09:21):
I gets the stories for that over days. So they
were there were support for her and her mom, along
with a brother as well. But I think Mom was
more so the decision maker, but she did confide in
her her parents for her support.

Speaker 5 (09:35):
Well, when you think of Angel's grandparents, what do you
think about them? They both were there, the grandmother and
the grandfather. What do you think of them? What type
of what type of tutelage were they like, were they
they strict? Were they encouraging when you were around them?
What was that relationship?

Speaker 3 (09:50):
Like?

Speaker 9 (09:51):
I mean, it was it was beautiful.

Speaker 17 (09:53):
That's probably the best word to describe it when you
talk about a family dynamic, especially from a coach perspective.

Speaker 9 (10:00):
And it was almost like, I think they felt like
I could do no wrong.

Speaker 17 (10:04):
You know, they always supported me anytime there was a
disagreement that Adri or that I would have. It's like,
you know, I was the coach, you know, and they
were super supportive. Her grandmother would not hesitate, whereas you know,
between games we might be sitting at the refreshment area
eating or something like that, she wouldn't hesitate to tell me,
you get those girls together, coach ron, they can do this.

Speaker 9 (10:27):
You got them, you know what I mean.

Speaker 17 (10:28):
So she was kind of my all right, I'm more
worried about your grandmother than I am.

Speaker 3 (10:32):
You.

Speaker 17 (10:34):
Yeah, they were awesome, and we still stay connected every
now and again a little bit through through social media.
And I just always felt like they just, you know,
they felt like I was just like a perfect fit
for her, and I was a great guy for her,
So I've always appreciated that for them. But the thing
that I was drawn to more than any of those
things was her ability and her desire and hunger thirst

(10:58):
to compete. She is the ultimate ultimate competitor. She wants
to win at all costs. She'll do whatever it takes,
She'll play whatever role needs to be played. She wants
to win, and sometimes that looks.

Speaker 5 (11:10):
Ugly team takeover a gritty, no nonsense club with the
winning tradition. Ron James knows her basketball spirit better than most.
He says, they spoke the same language and built a
beautiful relationship both on and off the court, a bond
rooted in their shared intensity and desire to win.

Speaker 17 (11:30):
We both wanted to win. We both had that kind
of from a coach of perspective, that dog mentality. So
it was almost like, you know, I'm gonna let you
be you. I'm gonna be me. You know I'm not
gonna put two feet in your yard. You're not gonna
put two feet in my yard. So a standard and
expectation was there, and it just grew into this lovely
coach player relationship where we could talk about anything and

(11:53):
everything and still can't. We still do to this day.
It wasn't always pretty right, but I was okay with that.
You know a lot of people when you get that,
and sometimes you know challenge. You know, Angel challenges, right,
But if you think about what she's challenging about, she's
always challenging about strategy of how to win, and I
was always okay with that. There are some people that

(12:16):
just can't handle that kind of a personality. And I
always say, you know, some people are for Angel and
some people are not. She's like age, why right, She's
for something, she's not for others. And that's just the
way it is. And not to sound like a cliche,
but take over, like great here to take over. We're
going to be in your face. We're going to be aggressive,

(12:36):
We're coming to compete. When you play our teams, you
have to beat us down to beata. It's going to
be adult life, you know.

Speaker 5 (12:44):
And also court Ron James says she was a caring
leader who demanded from her teammates but would match the
ask any day of the week.

Speaker 17 (12:51):
Angel is one of the most caring people and players
that I've ever coached, And on other interviews I've given
this example. I just never, you know, forget being on
the road. She was doing stuff for the team that
I wasn't willing to do.

Speaker 9 (13:04):
Right.

Speaker 17 (13:04):
Angel was the kid that would collect everybody's uniforms and
go wash them.

Speaker 7 (13:08):
Right.

Speaker 17 (13:09):
Angel was a kid that, Okay, I'm going to go
get breakfast. The girls want to sleep in. So Angel
would meet me downstairs in the lobby and we would
go to breakfast and she would have everybody's order, she
would have the debit cards. She even brought back condiments
that they went, calculated it all out, made sure that
the tip was there. Just those kinds of things. And

(13:31):
you know, when Angel is with you, she is with you.
And when you're with Angel, she knows it and she's
gonna ride and.

Speaker 9 (13:37):
Die with you.

Speaker 17 (13:39):
There was another young lady I just never forget this
story right where you know, Angels super competitive and sometimes
she's tough, right, she's tough to play with. But I
always told her, you can't get on your teammates for
things you're not doing or willing to do. So there
was a time where Angel thought this was a little
nickname we had, right, I'm doctor doing She thought she

(13:59):
was a plink, right, which she played some point for
me too, but I brought it in another young lady.
She actually just finished playing the Mississippi State and name
is Lauren park Lane. And Lauren comes in, She's all upset.
Angel won't give me the ball. Coach, Angel won't give
me the ball. I said, Lauren, I brought you here
to be the point guard. You need to walk up
to Angel. You're gonna have to look up right because

(14:19):
Lare's about five or four. And I said, let her
know who the point guard is and to give you
the damn ball. And that's what you say to her.
And Lauren did that exactly, and Angel said, okay.

Speaker 9 (14:32):
Here.

Speaker 17 (14:32):
They're the best of friends to this day, still connected,
still supportive of one another. I watch them support each
other on social media. But it's stuff like that about
Angel and her kindness right in her care for her team,
her teammates, her coaches, and those are around her and
in her circle.

Speaker 5 (14:51):
Who is Angel Reese? We have more When making up
a rivalry returns back in a moment.

Speaker 17 (15:04):
Somebody has to be the villain, right, I mean, be
honest with you. You know we've kind of carried ourselves
throughout that way. Like you know, we play in front
of large crowds all the time in our program, right,
and Angel was a part of that. And I used
to always tell her, like, everybody's not here to see you,
and they're here to see you loose, right, they're seeing
who can the thrown take team takeoff?

Speaker 9 (15:25):
Who could thrown dethrown Angel Reaes.

Speaker 17 (15:28):
So you're kind of taking the part of the villain,
which you kind of used to now a lot of
the stuff, you know, when you get on social media,
you got some you know, wacky people out there that
just exists. But it's just it's just funny, how what
you know? Is it because of her approach? Is it
because of her her her tone and how she does

(15:49):
things that she's portrayed as the villain? Why why is
she the villain and not the hero?

Speaker 18 (15:55):
Everything ain't all gonna be all pieces of green, Like,
that's not what entertainment is. You need a villain, you
need a bad guy, you need a savior, you.

Speaker 9 (16:03):
Need a captain. You know what I'm saying.

Speaker 18 (16:05):
That's just what America, Like, that's how America entertainment is.

Speaker 7 (16:09):
Like, that's how entertainment is. So you know, you kind
of just can't get it all wrapped into it.

Speaker 18 (16:14):
Like you kind of just gotta be a thing where
it's like like like you just kind of got to
embrace the moment as a player, as a fan, like
of course they want to see that. It's always a
storyline that's gonna sell, Like it gotta be you see
what I'm saying, Like, it gotta be something that sells,
So you know, I see it. Like but as long
as you know the recal and you know, like this,

(16:35):
ain't we about it?

Speaker 3 (16:37):
Did?

Speaker 5 (16:38):
Angel's former teammate at LSU, wile J. Johnson, says playing
at LSU with Angel, she knew they would have all
eyes on them. Admittedly it was tough for a rewarding
two years. She's loyal to LSU and Kimoki, but she's
also grateful to be teammates with Angel while witnessing one
of the greatest moments in women's sports.

Speaker 7 (17:00):
I got to like.

Speaker 18 (17:01):
Have a big role in that season, right, Nobody ever
thought that that was boiled down to with it boiled
down to but I got to grace the floor with
two of the biggest female stars that we'll ever see
in our lifetime, Angel, we said, Caitlyn and Clark, right,
and just to be in that in that moment and

(17:21):
see those two kind of just catastrophically become the face
of women's basketball.

Speaker 7 (17:27):
It was beautiful. It was something that we.

Speaker 18 (17:29):
Needed, and I'm glad I was on the winning's side,
right But overall.

Speaker 7 (17:34):
When you look at that, when you look at.

Speaker 18 (17:37):
That game, it's like wow, like this just changed our life.
This kind of just changed the world, Like this kind
of just changed women's basketball as a whole. Were on
the biggest stage just being ourselves. It was beautiful, and
I understand the part that I played in it, but
as a fan of it, I'm just grateful for the
part that Angel and Caitlyn played in it, Like you

(17:58):
know what I'm saying, and the way that the people
were able to just man historically make that a movement.
And man, I was just grateful to be a part
of it. And I'll forever going to be just grateful
to have Big Lsu to come to the school to
winch the neat freshman year, Like it's insane.

Speaker 5 (18:17):
I've coached some really great ones, but I don't know
that I've seen any go to the boards like this.

Speaker 8 (18:22):
Offensive rebounds and defensive rebounds is something that I know
I can always do. I knew it was going to
translate right away, and that's something that a lot of
players don't want to do. A lot of people think
it's because I get my own rebounds, but statistically it's not.
A lot of people think it's because I'm the tallest
on the court when I'm not the tallest on the court.
So just being able to go down there and being
able to bang doing things that a lot of people
don't want to do, defense and rebound and wins championships.

(18:43):
And I've won championships at every level by just doing this.

Speaker 5 (18:46):
At present, Angel is being coached by Teresa Riverspoon, affectionately
known as Tea Spoon, and she was also one of
the WNBA's all time great It.

Speaker 9 (18:55):
Was the end of the game.

Speaker 8 (18:56):
They were only a couple of seconds left, and then
Spoon gets the ball and it was like in she
takes it?

Speaker 9 (19:03):
How they win Game two?

Speaker 16 (19:05):
This crowd is absolutely stunned.

Speaker 5 (19:09):
Now, as the head coach of the Chicago Sky, it
feels almost serendipitous for her to have Angel Reese on
a roster, a coach player relationship that seems destined a
perfect fit of hard work, talent, and shared passion for
the game.

Speaker 13 (19:24):
It's a mindset and that's the difference.

Speaker 7 (19:26):
She wants it.

Speaker 13 (19:26):
She's not gonna allow a box out to keep her
from trying to get an offensive rebound. She's very physical
down there, but she knows what it takes to go
and get offensive rebounds, give us second chance opportunities. But
it's a desire. It's a desire to go get a
rebound and not being held back from doing so. She
goes hard after it. She takes it very personally. She

(19:47):
wants to go get it done. She's very serious about
her work of getting rebounds. She knows that's the thing
that she brings to this team to help us to
be so successful, and she's mastering that role.

Speaker 9 (19:57):
Just being out but be me.

Speaker 8 (20:00):
I think as a rookie, I've kind of been matched
up with a lot of great players and just understanding
that it's I can have growth growth points, and I
think I've learned throughout this this season so far, watching
a lot of film and being able to take a
lot of things and trying to implement them in my
game and learn from them. So just being able to
be my biggest critic, but also just patting myself in

(20:20):
the back when I do do great.

Speaker 5 (20:21):
Things, which is why everyone who I spoke with that
covers and or plays with Angel says she fights for
every single possession on the court, and some journalists say
they believe Angel controls the emotional temperature for the Chicago
Sky even though she's just a rookie.

Speaker 6 (20:39):
Angel reades the style of play she reminds me. Wow,
she funny enough. She reminds me of an Asia Wilson,
and and by that I see a lot of similarities.
Her ability to really play strong underneath the rim is
something that I love about Angel. She crashes the boards

(21:02):
like no other, as we all know because of the
records that she's broken, but her style of play is
She's gritty and she understands that her job first is
to be that rebounder, to be that with very Lisa
Leslie ish too, but I certainly see a lot. I
guess I could see a mix a mix of Lisa
in a mix of Asia together. Once she's able to

(21:24):
master the art of scoring around the rim and finishing
around the rim, I think she'll trend more towards Lisa.
But I love that style of play about her. She's
gritty underneath the basket. She knows that's where she needs
to be.

Speaker 5 (21:36):
Tarika Poster Bradsby is a sideline reporter with the Connecticut
Son but she's been covering the WNBA for over a decade.

Speaker 6 (21:44):
It's a predominantly black league, very high ogbt QIA plus community,
and they not trying to and we're women. I mean
that in itself is like whoa right, But you don't
have that same level of difficulty when it comes to
the women's national team from a soccer perspective.

Speaker 7 (22:02):
So it leads you to believe what.

Speaker 6 (22:03):
Makes it different between the soccer team and the basketball team,
And that's it. It's not just that we're women, it's
that we're black women and that we're black gay women,
and that in itself, we can't sell that to Middle America.
It is why at the beginning of the WNBA, if
you remember, early on, they used.

Speaker 7 (22:21):
To force.

Speaker 6 (22:23):
They would force the players to dress a certain way,
to look a certain way, to present a certain way
so that they could be quote unquote marketable.

Speaker 5 (22:32):
But fast forward to present day and Tarika says, these
two players grab the league and raise the standard of
what is expected and deserved.

Speaker 6 (22:40):
This is the place we hope to get to, Like
we hoped to be at a place where we can
have these conversations. We hoped that women's basketball would get
to a place where we've got media companies fighting for
deals for rights to air the product. We hoped that
we would get to a place where these women could
fly in charter planes. We hoped to get to a

(23:01):
place where, you know, we're watching an NBA game and
in the middle of the broadcast they're talking about two
players in the WNBA or how amazing a WNBA game was.
So the overall essence of what's happening in women's basketball
right now is what we've been trying to get to
for almost thirty years. This game is only going to

(23:23):
get better because the talent is getting better, and they
are bringing with them a fan base and a platform
and a demand really for a standard that this league
has not seen before. And that's really something that I
attribute to to Caitlin and Angel. They brought with them
a standard, you know, like you can't leave this place

(23:45):
and come to this place and be here again, Like
if we're here now, you have to elevate to where
we are, and the league is attempting to do that.

Speaker 2 (23:55):
My name is Mitchell Northam I work at North Carolina
Public Radio w n C, which is our MPR affiliate
here in Chapel Hill, and I also cover a lot
of women's college basketball, and having now for a few years,
Angel has really been the more impactful player here in
year one. And I think that's a testament to her drive,

(24:18):
her upbringing on those those courts in Baltimore, and just
her overall tenacity and her desire to prove naysayer is wrong.
And then you know, the other part of Angel Reese
on the court is kind of this swagger that she
plays with in this competitive fire. I think in many
ways she has kind of led the charge over the

(24:38):
past four or five years and women's basketball players showing
passion and competitiveness on the court. She has sort of
normalized trash talk and women's basketball. There were These are
all things that we clamor for and love when we
see from our male athletes, right touchdown celebrations and flexing
after dunks and starredowns and bat flips after home runs.

(25:00):
But for some reason, it was taboo when a woman
did it in her sport. You know, detractors wanted their
women athletes to be quote unquote ladylike and polite, but
showing that competitive fire and that swagger and the trash
talking while winning is one of the things that makes
sports entertaining, and we don't want our stars to be boring,
and so there were certainly women before Angelies who weren't

(25:22):
afraid to be themselves on the court in terms of
how they acted or presented themselves. I think of players
like Skyler Diggins and Clonnie Brown. They sort of opened
the door for that, but then angel kicked that door
down off Tinges, just with the unapologetic way that she
plays and presents herself.

Speaker 5 (25:42):
I'm old enough to remember a time when I would
interview WNBA players and the polish of being a professional
was seemingly dull. In my opinion, it was because the
sport wasn't respected or valued in many ways. Their answers
were politically correct, very little personality, and it felt as
if they wanted it to be perfect in order to elevate.

(26:02):
I don't know if it's because women are socialized to
be very demure, very mindful, very cute see or there
was a subtle messaging that forced these women to play
small all pun intended. I understand that hesitation as a
woman in a professional world. But what I loved about
Angel and her generation is that there is an ownership

(26:24):
and a confidence that's contagious.

Speaker 8 (26:27):
I realized my purpose within the last year or two,
understanding that I'm more than a basketball player, and my
inspiration has gone farther than that. I didn't really realize that.
I thought just being able to show up every day
and get better and just love the game. But I
know how many people come out and just to be
inspired just by me running up and down the court
and just the way I look, or just my lashes
on my hair, and just how I inspire so many

(26:48):
different people. So I continue to do that no matter what.
I love basketball so much, but outside of it, I
know I left my impact.

Speaker 5 (26:54):
When we return Making of a Rivalry, you will preview
episode four the Big Game LSU versus IOWA and what
most fans don't know. You all were not even aware
of how people were responding to Angel Reese's you know
check the ring, you can't see me to Caitlin Clark.

(27:14):
You had no idea.

Speaker 6 (27:16):
We could not see that. And here's the funny thing,
so funny story. During the Final four, I was actually
on assignment where I had a chance to talk to
each and every team, and I had a different angle
for what I was talking to to all the final
four teams.

Speaker 7 (27:31):
When it got to Iowa, my angle was, you.

Speaker 6 (27:34):
Know, you guys think that Caitlyn Clark talks a lot
of smack on the court. I want to know more
about the smack talk that she does on the court,
and if she doesn't in the locker room.

Speaker 5 (27:46):
We'll be back in just a few moments.

Speaker 11 (27:52):
I think just being able to be in that moment
of it happening, you never realized how something can literally
change your life. And knowing my five fingers and my
other finger pointing at my hand could literally have changed
my life for like forever.

Speaker 7 (28:07):
It's crazy.

Speaker 10 (28:08):
So it's interesting because live I didn't even notice that
it was happening. Obviously on television they make a big deal.
You know, you can see, uh, there's there's a lot
of you can't see me the ring me, which, to
be fair, Alice, you have been doing throughout the tournament.

Speaker 4 (28:22):
When Angel Reeson then played and Angel rees put it
back in her face, I was like, okay, Like this
is competition the way I like it, and me like
when I was watching the game. It wasn't that big.
I was like, oh, this is great. She pointed out
a ring, she did all this, and then like I
feel like immediately that day it became like, oh she's Angels.

(28:43):
I remember like Angel getting called class list and I
was like, and this is for me.

Speaker 9 (28:47):
It was like here we go again.

Speaker 1 (28:50):
And so you know, when someone trash talk is trash
talks the darling of you know, the country in a
game in which you know she's going to lose, you know,
people are going to get frustrated by that and upset
by that and mad by that, and so I kind
of I was able to process like, oh, that's gonna
be that's gonna be a story in the aftermath.

Speaker 9 (29:12):
But for me in the moment, I'm also part of
the other reason.

Speaker 1 (29:16):
I'm just like, I think what I said on air
was just Angel Reese letting Kaylin Clark know a ring
is coming.

Speaker 9 (29:24):
I think I was.

Speaker 3 (29:24):
Worried about the discourse because it was women. I think
I was worried about the discourse because it was wrong,
you know. And for me, I have been a part
of all aspects of basketball. If you're a real hooper,
you know that when you grow up and you play.

Speaker 7 (29:37):
If you got game, you got game, game recognized game.

Speaker 3 (29:40):
If you go out on the playground and they're boys there,
you're not afraid of them.

Speaker 7 (29:44):
If you love the game, you go out there and hoop.
And so there's always been.

Speaker 3 (29:47):
This camaraderie amongst sports that has been internal.

Speaker 7 (29:51):
But on the outside there have been so many preconceived notions.

Speaker 3 (29:54):
About what women's basketball players, what the product is like,
what women's basketball players should be doing, how they should
conduct themselves in the middle of competition. And I just
found so many of those aspects wrong. We have women
that are bad assets. We have women that are trash talkers.
We have women that will hit you with a hard foul.
We have women that will hit you with the tweet and.

Speaker 7 (30:12):
Croft fadeaway jumper. You know, that is our authentic self.

Speaker 3 (30:17):
And I think for people to come in say, oh,
this is how we expect you to play, not knowing
that they hadn't lived that experience, to me was frustrating
and so we had to go into like correction mode.

Speaker 5 (30:29):
Every single person who covered the now infamous LSU game
said they had no idea was an issue. As a
professional covering athletes. Angel Rees was trash talking, and to me,
that is a rite of passage for any athlete who wins,
especially a national championship. However, what I've learned while making
this docu series is that women's sports has never truly

(30:50):
been under the microscope, meaning the masses were not always invested.
There are some exceptions to that rule, but overall, this
was the first time in this modern era that the
casual fan found themselves truly invested, and they didn't like
what they saw.

Speaker 2 (31:08):
You know, it broke a bunch of viewership records. And
these were all people who were sort of new to
the game, and I think they just maybe too quickly
decided to pick sides. And you know, there was a
narrative born. People formed takes about etiquette and sportsmanship and race,
and they used Reese and Clark as catalysts for those opinions,

(31:28):
and I think a lot of them were kind of
tired and cliched and really lacked the proper nuance required
for such a discussion of that sort. You know, if
you watch Caitlyn Clark play, she is similar into the
way that she carries herself that Angel Reese is. It
was just in that moment, in that game where a
lot of people were watching for the first time. They

(31:51):
saw Clark losing in that moment, and they saw Angel,
you know, basking in the the glory of a win
and getting one last laugh. Again, going back to like
my point earlier, this is something that we would love
to see in the men's game. It adds drama and
adds all this stuff. I think people just jumped and

(32:12):
took it too.

Speaker 9 (32:12):
Far and you know, kind of made Angel Reaes into
this villain.

Speaker 5 (32:18):
The aesthetics of a taller black girl taunting a smaller,
seemingly more fragile white girl sent the Internet into overdrive,
while separate fan bases attacked both Angel and Clark, when
apparently both these young ladies were simply unbothered, solely focused
on the outcome of the championship game. In summary, perception

(32:39):
has more power than reality. All that more coming up
in episode four, The Big Game LSU versus IOWA. Thank
you for listening. I'll talk to y'all next week. The
Making of a Rivalry Caitlin Clark Versus Angel Reese is
a Be Honest production in partnership with the Black Effect
podcast Network. In iHeart Women's Sports, written and executive produced

(33:00):
by me Kerry Champion. Supervising producer is Arlene Santana, produced
by Jock Vice Thomas Sound Design and mastered by Dwayne Crawford.
Associate producer Olubu Saile Shabby. Naked Sports is a part
of the Black Effect podcast network in iHeartMedia. Hey everybody,
if you're new to Naked Sports, welcome to the podcast,

(33:22):
and for those who've been with us since season one,
thank you for right now. We're kicking off season four
with this six episode docu series that you're listening to
right now, and after that, Naked Sports will continue to
live at the intersection of sports, politics, and culture for
covering all things from the presidential race to the WNBA
Rookie of the Year contests. This season will be bold,

(33:43):
as you can already tell, no holds barred, but also
we'll bring you that same vulnerable storytelling technique that makes
our show so very unique. We appreciate you for being
here and thank you all for the support. We'll talk
to you next week.
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Host

Cari Champion

Cari Champion

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