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September 16, 2024 35 mins

In this episode we highlight the evolution of women's sports, particularly focusing on the impact of Caitlin Clark and Angel Reese in the WNBA. 

Cari Champion interviews Lisa Bluder, former head coach of the University of Iowa women's basketball team. They discuss the impact of Caitlin Clark on the sport and her experience coaching Caitlin to superstardom.  Bluder shares her thoughts on the challenges and changes in women's athletics and gives her take on Caitlin’s performance in the WNBA. 

Cari also speaks with Caitlin’s high school coach, Kristin Meyer, Their conversation explores Caitlin's skills and playing style, her off-court personality, and the comparisons made between her and other basketball players. 

Within both conversations, we explore the historical context of women's athletics, the role of social media in shaping narratives, and the complexities of rivalry and race in sports.

Other voices include Ryan Ruocco, Sarah Spain, Sabreena Merchant, Kev on Stage, and more... 

Connect: @CariChampion @NakedwithCariChampion

Check out NAKED SPORTS on YouTube!

See omnystudio.com/listener for privacy information.

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Transcript

Episode Transcript

Available transcripts are automatically generated. Complete accuracy is not guaranteed.
Speaker 1 (00:05):
As we gather tonight, our nation is at war, our
economy is in recession, and the civilized world faces unprecedented dangers.
Yet the state of our union has never been stronger.

Speaker 2 (00:22):
In two thousand and two, the world was still finding
its way after the nine to eleven attacks. I had
just started a new job in Florida, working as a
local reporter and covering the story from a way in
which felt really intimate to me because I was invested.
It was our world, it was our time, it was
our country. The economy was struggling, but American pride was

(00:44):
still at an all time high. And now that I
look back on it some twenty plus years later, with
perspective and distance, it's clear that sports was a source
of escape and unity for many, including myself. The WNBA
was entering its sixth season, and unfortunately the effects of
a post nine to eleven economy were being felt. Attendance

(01:06):
had hit a plateau after a record breaking year. The
league was hemorrhaging money, and players were frustrated with their
salaries and pension plans. The women's game hadn't found its
footing yet, but the excitement around the sport was still
very much alive. The Los Angeles Sparks had just clinched
their second championship by defeating the New York Liberty Monia

(01:29):
in Los Angeles.

Speaker 3 (01:30):
In Los Angeles Sparks WNBA champions.

Speaker 2 (01:35):
Hall of Fame re Lisa Leslie took home the finals MVP.

Speaker 3 (01:39):
Rebound off fixed board in the putback by Lisa Leslie,
she the face of the WNBA and for good reason,
one of the great players in the history in the league.

Speaker 4 (01:49):
Fire gets it up the listening, let's you get it
out to stay down on the fourth time.

Speaker 5 (01:54):
Mccomy revery us say kay, let's say so.

Speaker 2 (01:58):
Last one what they do and Cheryl Swoops was crowned
the league MVP that year.

Speaker 6 (02:03):
After missing the entire two thousand and one season with
the torn ACL, Cheryl Swoops returned in two thousand and
two with a vengeance, winning the Defensive Player of the
Year award and earning ENVP honors.

Speaker 2 (02:15):
The number one draft pick was a fiery point guard
from Yukon. Sue Byrd was going to play for the
Seattle Storm. Elsewhere in sports, Lance Armstrong, although surrounded by controversy,
won his fourth consecutive Tour de France, and that is
something we can really lol about right now, I know
I am. And in the NFL, Tom Brady and the
Patriots were dealing with the infamous Tuck rule. On the

(02:38):
entertainment front, The Lord of the Rings was the highest
grossing movie of the year. I still haven't seen it,
don't judge me. And one of the most popular songs
was Nelle hot in Here. But two thousand and two
wasn't just about championship scandals or blockbusters. It was also
the year Caitlin Elizabeth Clark was born in West des Moines, Iowa.

Speaker 7 (03:00):
Well, my mom has this like piece of paper like
when I was in second or third grade, and it
has like you write down like all your dreams and
like these little bubbles, and I remember one of them
was playing the WMBA and earn a basketball scholarship.

Speaker 8 (03:12):
I have known Caitlin since she was in eighth grade.
I've been following her. We had been recruiting her since
then because we knew she was such a special talent.
And then it came time for her senior year and
her to make this decision. And she grew up in
a Catholic high school, very strong Catholic family, and so
notre Dame, of course, was a logical decision for her

(03:33):
to make, but her heart wasn't there.

Speaker 9 (03:36):
I don't think anyone has ever called her quiet in
her life, probably and that's not a bad thing.

Speaker 10 (03:42):
I mean, she is just a ball of energy. She
loves people.

Speaker 9 (03:45):
She loves entertaining, both on the court with what she
can do, but sometimes even more in joking around and
you know, doing pranks and singing karaoke and just she
is always bringing energy wherever.

Speaker 11 (03:59):
She Kaitlyn is an amazing generational talent, and she's going
to do amazing things.

Speaker 2 (04:05):
You know, the number one pick.

Speaker 11 (04:06):
People are going to go after you, whether it's for
the right or wrong reasons, because they see greatness in you.

Speaker 2 (04:11):
Naked Sports The Making of a Rivalry a six episode
docu series that explores the media frenzy surrounding two super
novas in Kaitlyn Clark and Angel Reese. I'm your host,
Carrie Champion, and welcome to the Making of a Rivalry. Personally,
I've never seen a rookie impact the sport the way

(04:32):
Caitlyn Clark has. I'm sure if I were to find
a sports historian, he or she could find a comp
from a different era but as of late, it's just Caitlyn,
when asked at a press conference, how she feels about
her impact for.

Speaker 12 (04:45):
Me coming into these arenas, in these environments, like, I
look around and it's incredible, Like it really is. I
don't show up and expect like these crowds, Like sure,
like maybe you've been a little bit used to it,
but for me, like that's not anything that ever gets old.
It really is something that's really cool, especially as a
young girl who grew up going to games, and you know,
as a young girl, I would have came to a

(05:06):
game in a building like this and seen this type
of crowd.

Speaker 10 (05:08):
I think I would have been kind of in heaven.

Speaker 2 (05:11):
I'll measure my opinion by reminding you that the WNBA
is still a very young league. It's in its twenty
eighth year, so some would say that's a small sample size.
But here are a few more numbers. Since Clark was
drafted in April and the season began in May, she
made a record breaking one hundred three pointers and counting.
As we record this story, remember she's still a rook

(05:35):
The Indiana Fever reportedly led the league in home attendance,
averaging sixteen thousand fans all packed inside the Gamebridge Field
House to watch women play sports. And what about this
the Fever road games, they're just as impactful, with an
average of fifteen thousand fans. Two months into the season,

(05:56):
Yahoo Sports reported that viewership for WNBA games had trip
across multiple platforms. The team with the most watch games
you ask Indiana Fever. So when I say Clark is
the most impactful rookie I've seen in the modern era,
I'm not searching for a hot take. Numbers never lie.

Speaker 8 (06:16):
This year we had the crossover in Kinnick where we
had fifty five thousand people here for our first exhibition
game in our football stadium.

Speaker 2 (06:23):
So we have had a lot going on, five thousand
people watching women's basketball. It's beautiful.

Speaker 8 (06:30):
It's it is beautiful. That's a great way to explain it, Carrie,
it is beautiful.

Speaker 2 (06:35):
Former head coach at Iowa Lisa Bluter was very effective
with her players and obviously Caitlin, and it was because
she played the game. Coach Bluter has witnessed its slow evolution.

Speaker 8 (06:46):
You know, I played in college from seventy nine to
eighty three, and the think about what we endured, you know,
going in the vans to games as a Division one
school and having one you know, set of uniforms, one
pair of shoe is, no food, no lodging. I mean,
we would have four people in a hotel room. It's crazy,
you know, one hundred people come to watch us play

(07:08):
to now you know what these athletes and how they're
being treated to sell out crowds and on national television.
I'm so glad that I lived when I did, because
I got to see this unbelievable progression of women's athletics,
not just women's basketball, but women's athletics from really its

(07:29):
infancy to right now how it's maturing and becoming so popular,
and so I love that I got to see it now.
I would have loved to have reaped some of the
benefits that the athletes are receiving now, but it really
gives me a different perspective knowing how hard people fought
before me, and how hard we fought to make this

(07:50):
sport grow, and now to see some of the benefits
of that is really rewarding.

Speaker 13 (07:55):
Caitlyn Clark is the reason we're talking about women's basketball
in twenty twenty four.

Speaker 2 (08:00):
That's my colleague and I consider a dear friend Sabrina Merchant.
She's a staff writer for The Athletic covering women's basketball.

Speaker 13 (08:07):
Yeah, I think we've sort of been building towards this.
I like to point back to the twenty twenty one
INSTEAA tournament when Sedona Prince posted that TikTok from the
bubble in San Antonio and we saw this dramatic disparity
in what the weight room looked like in San Antonio
for the women's tournament versus what it looked like in
Indianapolis for the men's tournament.

Speaker 5 (08:26):
I got something to show, y'all. So for the NCAA
March Madness, the biggest tournament in college basketball for women,
this is our weight room. Let me show y'all the
men's weight room.

Speaker 4 (08:36):
Let me show y'all something else.

Speaker 5 (08:37):
Here's our practice court, right, and then here's that weight room,
and then here's all this extra space. If you aren'tupset
about this problem, then you're a part of it.

Speaker 13 (08:48):
And you know that just made it very clear to
everyone how Title nine is being violated at the NAA
level and what women were having to deal with just
personal experience wise, compared to their male counterparts. So I
think that you know which spurred the Capital and report
and caused DANCEAA to look into its memory institutions and

(09:11):
figure out, like, why aren't we letting the women use
the march madness term? And why aren't these games on television?
And why isn't there a first four for the women
like the First four and the men's tournament, and just
all of these little things that were holding the women
back that this one TikTok really just set into conversation.

Speaker 2 (09:28):
When that video went viral and many people saw what
women had to deal with during the tournament, how did
that make you feel.

Speaker 8 (09:36):
Embarrassed that we were being treated this poorly, you know,
as women that were striving so hard to be you know,
excellent in our fields, and that we were being treated
like this, and it was just so good. Nobody was listening,
but a student athlete took it upon themselves, and the
power of video right showed exactly what she was talking about.

(10:00):
Suddenly when that went viral, people couldn't believe it, but
it had been happening. But it took a student athlete
in the visual of what was going on in order
to make change. And so I think we have to
credit her tremendously for that and it was unacceptable. I'm
so glad that the changes that were seen now really

(10:21):
became because of COVID, and so there is a real
positive to look in at that, because I don't think
it would have happened our changes, would it out have
happened as quickly as effectively as they're happening now without
COVID and that experience that we had in the bubble.

Speaker 2 (10:38):
The bubble not only highlighted the deplorable conditions, but it
also revealed a superstar in the making. When rivalry returns,
who is Caitlin Clark?

Speaker 14 (10:49):
I remember Kaylin Clark going viral for like logo threes
and step back threes, and it was like, oh, she
plays light step That's what I was hearing. And I
was like, oh, Like, I hadn't seen somebody in a
minute shooting from that deep. I hadn't seen I've seen
players really good, but logo threes was her thing, and
I was like, Iowa, I don't remember Iowa being good.

(11:09):
Like when I was growing up, it was like Yukon,
it was Tennessee, Texas, A and m was good. For
a while, it was Baylor, but Iowa. I was like,
I don't remember Iowa, so I started like paying attention.

Speaker 15 (11:20):
Then Caitlyn Clark is a dog.

Speaker 16 (11:22):
Kaitlyn Clark is one of those players that if you
are a coach or a teammate, you are so grateful
that she is going to put in every single ounce
of time and effort at every chance she's given to
make sure that when she shows up, she has the
best chance to win.

Speaker 2 (11:35):
And that is close to my heart.

Speaker 16 (11:37):
Because I have a serious competition problem that the older
I get, the less useful it is and the more
problematic it is. But when you've got somebody else that
you can see that in, and when you look at
athletes that you know how much it means to them
and how much.

Speaker 8 (11:50):
It matters to them to win, that's who you want
to root for.

Speaker 16 (11:53):
That's who you want to play alongside. So first and foremost,
Kaitlyn and Clark is a competitor.

Speaker 4 (11:58):
I can remember the very first time I watched and play.
She was a freshman at Iowa. We were doing our
coverage of women's college games from studio in Bristol because
of the pandemic, and Sue Bird, who's a dear friend
of mine, and I would carpool to Bristol and because
Sue was doing some studio for us while I was

(12:19):
doing the games, but everything was happening from studio. And
as we're walking in to the studio carry you remember,
there's the kind of the back room with all the
different monitors and TVs, and Sue is like, Hey, we
got to go check out the Iowa game. And I'm like,
the Iowa game. By the Iowa game, and she was like, Oh,
they have this freshman named Caitlin Clark who shoots like

(12:42):
Steph Curry from crazy distance.

Speaker 2 (12:44):
Back in a moment, let me let you in on
a little secret. As I write this, I am filled
with a bit of anks about how this docuseries will
be received by the public. And that's just be honest.
I really think the media has fueled perceived rivalry between

(13:05):
these two stars as something that's not good. But I
truly believe that their greatness can bring people together rather
than divide them, and my hope is that the fans
can celebrate one without tearing down the other. I had
the chance to interview Ryan Rugo from ESPN. He caught
the LSU Iowa game in twenty twenty three, and he
covers most of the huge matchups in the WNBA. I

(13:28):
asked him to share how Caitlin Clark became such a
darling of the sport.

Speaker 4 (13:33):
Caitlyn continues to get better and better, and then her
moments become more and more viral, and all of a sudden,
you have people who are seeing clips of her and
they're saying, oh my gosh, who is this. They're seeing
the insane no look passes, they're seeing the downcour passes.
But more than anything else at this moment, what they're
seeing is they're seeing someone pull up off the dribble
from thirty thirty five forty feet and just having these

(13:58):
incredible performances as someone who's leading the nation and scoring
and assisting over and over again. And then junior year
comes and they have a lot of these, you know, highlights,
building building, and the interest is building, and then she
takes Iowa on this epic run and then they go
to the national championship game for the first time, and
so everybody who's being drawn in to her style of
play is then seeing her succeed and getting to watch

(14:22):
her longer in these high stakes games. You know, I
don't know what is and is unperceived, but I don't
know if people fully appreciate how much of a killer
competitor Kaitln is. Like she is a killer. She demands
from her teammates, you know she's and I think that right.

(14:43):
Thompson article that came out did a great job of
documenting that, like how Kaitlin in Iowa first was untrusting
of making certain passes to her teammates because she was like,
you're not in the gym like.

Speaker 11 (14:55):
I'm in the gym.

Speaker 2 (14:56):
Can't Kobe, I can't respect you.

Speaker 4 (15:00):
It very exactly, very Kobe like, like you mean, maybe
you're not going to have the talent I have, but
like you're gonna work like I work, or it's gonna
be hard for me to trust you. And I think
that people don't fully appreciate like Caitlyn is a killer
and the other thing I don't know if this fully
appreciated with Kaitln is the winning she did at the

(15:20):
collegiate level back to back. That was like it is
not easy to do what she did at Iowa, you know,
like to take that team to back to back national
championship games. You know that's not a program. They had
never been there. You know, that's not a program. That
has you know, winning embedding it right. She wasn't looking

(15:42):
around on her roster. Now they had some good players,
So I think sometimes are actually underrated. But it's not
like she was surrounded by all Americans, you know, and
and so I think sometimes because you never know, like, well,
how does the winning translate from one level to the next.
But I almost think my projecting ahead for her and
her role and her impact in the WNBA, maybe the

(16:04):
way she was able to win in college was actually
a little undersould because it was that impressive.

Speaker 2 (16:10):
How was it coaching, Caitlin. I've read a few of
your quotes, seen a few of your interviews, and you
said the relationship obviously is key, but it would not
have worked if she would have been with a coach
that said my way or the highway, And it would
not have worked if she would have been with a
coach that was inexperienced. So you were able to have

(16:33):
a happy medium talk to me about that relationship.

Speaker 8 (16:36):
I think it was the right thing for her and
to be able to have somebody that she couldn't run over,
because she would have run over somebody that maybe didn't,
you know, have the confidence or the experience to deal
with that because she has a very strong personality and
she's also somebody that needs some give and take. And

(16:57):
you've got to listen to her because she has good
ideas and she's got an unbelievable basketball IQ. And so,
you know, instead of preaching to her, work with her.
Like when i'd watch film with her, we would work
through it together. Instead of me saying, well, you should
have done this, you should have done that. I think
that would have created this, you know, chasm that would
have been really hard for her. So as we are

(17:19):
going through coaching Caitlin, you know, she has a strong personality,
she is very fiery, She's got lots of passion, and
I would always tell my staff listen that passion is
what makes her great, and that makes her what people
want to watch. So let's not put a bushel light,
Let's not put a bushel basket over that light. Let's
let that light shine. And I think that's what we did,

(17:42):
is we we came to a happy medium of Okay,
you're going to be respectful, but we're still going to
let you have your passion and be able to, you know,
be able to. I think people loved watching her play
because of that.

Speaker 2 (17:56):
Yeah. Well, I remember on many occasions watching you coach her,
and even especially in the attorney, and you would say
something that I and I don't know if I misinterpreted this,
but she's so fast, sometimes too fast, and I would
I would see you saying slow down, slow down. Was
that a thing for you to tell her? Just to
because she'd race right back up the court, you know,
and you're like, wait, they're not here yet. I felt

(18:18):
like I saw you do this a lot, like give
her the gesture of just let it come to you.
Was that one of the one of the things that
you were trying to teach her.

Speaker 8 (18:26):
But you know, it was more of breathe, you know,
honestly breathing sometimes slowing down, and so that you can
control your emotions, you can control your passion, and you
can make better decisions. And so sometimes you know, she
just would get a little you know, she gets mad
at herself, right, It's just and it looks like she's

(18:47):
maybe mad at of teammates or somebod else, but she's
mad at herself. She's in a competitor, ultimate competitor. So
mostly it was just like take that breath, You're okay,
you're great. You know, it was just that trust that
we had between each other.

Speaker 2 (19:02):
By all accounts, people who have coach Caitlyn and covered
Kaitlin describe her as a fierce competitor, strong personality. Ryan
Ruko said it was Kobe like and if you're really
watching the game, you can see it. But I keep
asking myself, why are so many journalists and fans ignoring
that competitive side that makes her great? Why is there
a reluctance to analyze the good and the bad of

(19:23):
her game? We don't do that with the men. I
also think we forget it's that killer side that makes
her so great that also moves her to talk her
ish as the kids would say to the players and
the refs. And if trash talking is a bad thing,
I don't want any part of the WNBA. Clark leads
the league in turnovers and an assists. In fact, she's

(19:47):
also one of the top five players that leads the
WNBA in technicals. As of August eighteenth, Caitlyn Clark was
two techs away from an unpaid one game suspension.

Speaker 12 (19:58):
I got a technical for basically being mad at my
myself because I missed the three, and then I went
and hit the backboard, and he told me it was
disrespectful to the game of basketball.

Speaker 11 (20:05):
So I don't know.

Speaker 12 (20:06):
It reminded me of the technical that I got in college,
where I said, damn it, where it's like a personal frustration.
Had nothing to do with my team, had nothing to
do with reffing, had nothing to do with other team.
It was just because I'm a competitor and I felt
like I should have been making more shots.

Speaker 2 (20:19):
So but Clark also thanked the ref for the tech.
She said it was motivation. Any great player can be
motivated by what is perceived as a weakness, and like
most players in the WNBA, Caitlin Clark is seemingly frustrated
by the way women are allowed to compete.

Speaker 12 (20:36):
I think it still does surprise me that people like
get a little distraught about like women being competitive and
getting into little arguments on the core or having a
little trash talk, and that's how it should be. I
think more than anything, it's like surprising, like you guys
didn't know, like this is how women's sports are played,
Like come on.

Speaker 2 (20:53):
Kristin Meyer, head coach at Dowling Catholic High School where
Clark developed her skills, has been there from the start
nurturing Caitlin through her teenage years.

Speaker 9 (21:02):
It definitely did not take long to realize, oh, this
is a different level of an athlete of a competitor.

Speaker 8 (21:09):
And so yeah, I think some of what.

Speaker 10 (21:11):
She could do with the ball passing creating her own
shots stood out. But the confidence she has.

Speaker 9 (21:18):
And you see that now even in the WNBA, she
steps on the court, she's in her happy place, but
she is in her confident place. And to watch her
play basketball, whether she was an eighth grader or now
in the WNBA as very similar and just seeing her
be able to use her skills to the fullest potential.

Speaker 2 (21:36):
You said she was a different type of athlete when
you saw her. What does that mean? What was different
about her outside of just her being able to create
her shots and her confidence? How do you recognize that
jenas a quah. Is it just something you feel?

Speaker 10 (21:50):
I think it's part of something that I felt.

Speaker 9 (21:52):
But also when you watch her play, her vision and
her understanding of the game, the game is literally slowed
down in her mind, you know, and she sees these
passing angles that even the past or the receiver of
the past doesn't even see, you know, And you're watching
in the stands or on the side of the court,
and you don't always even see it as a coach,

(22:12):
you know, or a fan until it happens. And so
just to see firsthand how the how she sees the game.
And it's kind of hard to explain because even as
we watch her, you can't get in her mind.

Speaker 10 (22:24):
But the game is literally slower for her than other people.

Speaker 2 (22:28):
Now she watches as Clark navigates the highs and lows
of her unique and also unprecedented journey in the WNBA.
More specifically, the social media frenzy that perpetuates a rivalry
between her and Reees.

Speaker 9 (22:42):
Well, I think with a lot of things in the media,
and especially with social media, things get blown out of proportion.
I think, especially early in the WNBA season, people tried
to pit Caitlin versus Angel, and I'm so glad they
got to be on the same team for the.

Speaker 10 (22:56):
All Star Game.

Speaker 9 (22:57):
Like Caitlyn has the utmost respect for Angel, and personally
I have loved watching her play in the WNBA and
the double doubles she gets and the rebounding. You know,
I'm telling my high school athletes watch how she rebounds,
you know, look at that intensity, and so I think
it is possible to respect all athletes to point out
the good things they do. It doesn't have to be

(23:19):
Caitlin versus Angel and anything. You know, people are trying
to talk about the Rookie of the Year race and
all these things, and it's two incredible athletes who are
competing every day and trying to get better and grow
the game. And yeah, when they're playing each other the
Fever versus Sky, they're cutthroat, they're trying to win. But
you know, they got to play on the All Star
Game together and they had a great time. And I

(23:41):
know Caitlyn has so much respect.

Speaker 10 (23:43):
For Angel and love seeing the game grow from that.

Speaker 9 (23:46):
And unfortunately, I think people like to try to put
a little drama into things even if it isn't there.

Speaker 10 (23:52):
But that's kind of how things go.

Speaker 2 (23:54):
But Coach, is that a bad thing for the sport?

Speaker 8 (23:57):
The drama?

Speaker 9 (23:58):
I don't think it's bad, but when it kind of
goes to untrue, you know, And cause I always think
about high school athletes middle school athletes. Do we always
want to build competitive people, Yes, but if you see
someone's you know, trying to make it like another athlete
is cutting down someone else or trying to dim that
other athlete's light.

Speaker 10 (24:19):
I personally don't like that.

Speaker 9 (24:21):
And so the competitiveness, yeah, I'm trying to beat you,
whether it's one on one or my team versus your team,
or stats or whatever, that's fine.

Speaker 8 (24:29):
But when I think some.

Speaker 9 (24:30):
People have trying to take it more personal, I personally
don't like seeing that. And I know some people have
brought race into the conversation, and so those things just
get a little bit skewed from you know, what reality is.
And so those are the things that I think about,
especially working with younger athletes, of how do we help,
especially female athletes, have respect for everyone and still be

(24:52):
you know, competitors on the court, but respect them off
the court.

Speaker 2 (24:56):
I've been speaking to a lot of journalists for this
docu series. Many have said that during the conversation about
Kaitlin Clark and Angel Reese, they've been afraid to really
share their honest opinions because they are immediately categorized as
either racist and or angry and or pro Caitlin and
or anti Angel. And you touched on it briefly. Do

(25:21):
you believe was there a way for that ever to
be avoided in this country that we live in, Coach.

Speaker 9 (25:27):
I think maybe twenty years ago, you know, without social media.
To be honest, I think social media and letting every
single person be able to publicly post their own opinions,
and sometimes those opinions are solely posted just to get
likes and controversy controversial topics has made things a little

(25:48):
bit uglier. But you know, but it has brought ice
to the game, So I don't think it's bad that
it's brought ice to the game, but I think there's
been a lot of negativity that has been brought to
it as well, which is too bad to see it.

Speaker 10 (26:01):
And I don't know live in rainbows and roses society
where everything is just.

Speaker 9 (26:05):
Going to be you know, compliments and things. But I
think some people have taken it down a darker path
than it needs to go, and which isn't fair.

Speaker 10 (26:13):
To those athletes.

Speaker 2 (26:14):
It isn't fair. I agree with that, but it's a
reality of the world we live in. Most people see
the world through their filter a story as the oldest
time is white versus black. Caitlin and Angel have changed
the way we consume sports, but I also believe that
they live right at that intersection of greatness and unity.
Once we remove all these negative associations with the word

(26:37):
or idea of rivalry and be honest about the racial
realities that do exist not only in this country and
in politics, but also in this league, we then can
see a universal change. So when it comes to Caitlin Clark,
let's treat her like the athlete, the competitor, and the
baller that she is. Here's Sarah Spain of the Good

(26:58):
Game podcast.

Speaker 16 (27:00):
The thing with Caitlin Clark is there are so many
people wanting to heap so much praise, and it is deserved.
But the point where they go too far is when
they ignore the existence of the league's growing popularity before
she arrived, and ignore the fact that if the product
sucked and she got there, it would not be an
interesting conversation.

Speaker 8 (27:19):
It would not be fun to watch. There wouldn't be
stories to tell.

Speaker 16 (27:23):
It would just be one player who showed up and
shot a bunch of great threes. But I think when
you have a conversation about Caitlin Clark, Sue Bird was
on my show Good Game with Sarah Spain and said,
when Lebron arrived in the NBA, people didn't forget Michael
Jordan existed, like they acknowledged his greatness, but they weren't
like no one else has ever lived, And some people
are trying to.

Speaker 2 (27:43):
Do that with Caitlin, and I think calling her the
best ever, yeah, yeah, exactly.

Speaker 16 (27:47):
I think where the fault lies is to ignore the
greatness around her, and to ignore that she's not one
of the best players in the league right now, that
there's players that are playing at much higher level than
her that you could be watching and admiring and appreciating
if you opened up your lens a little bigger. And
I also think the league would not be in the
place that it is in now if not for the
excitement that she draws.

Speaker 2 (28:09):
Caitlin Clark has given the league new life. She's opened
the eyes of Fairweather fans and critics their style of
play transcends. She is definitely on divine assignment, but she's
not the only reason why this moment in women's sports
is evolving. When we come back, we preview episode three,
Who is Angel Reese? You're listening to the making of

(28:31):
a rivalry back in a moment.

Speaker 17 (28:37):
It all started from the National Championship game, and I've
been dealing with this for two years now and understanding like, yeah,
negative things have probably been said about me, but honestly,
I'll take that because look where women's basketball is. People
are talking about women's basketball. You've never think that we
talking about women's basketball. People are pulling up the games.
We got celebrities coming to games, soda aut arenas, like
just because of one single game, and just looking at that, like,

(29:00):
I'll take that role. I'll take the bad guy role,
and I'll continue to take that on and be that
for my teammates. And if I want to be that,
and I know I'll go down to history, I'll look
back at twenty years and be like, yeah, the reason
why we watching women's basketball is not just because of
one person.

Speaker 12 (29:13):
It's because of me too. And I want try to
realize that.

Speaker 2 (29:16):
Angel Reese told us in college that she would gladly
play the role of a villain. But I gotta be honest,
I don't want that for her. I do not want
one moment to define who she is as a person.
I hate it because as a black woman, I've been
labeled one as well. It's a story that is also
old as time and not very creative. But unfortunately or fortunately,

(29:41):
depending on how you look at it. It's a narrative
that creates a musty tension that I believe this country
is addicted to in every single discipline. Cav on stage
is a comedian and a culture expert, so this is.

Speaker 14 (29:55):
This is something that happens commonly in America, so it
only makes sense that it's happening again. But usually those
sports rise to the top. So I'm not saying I'll
be happy like that racism played a part, but I
think I'll be happy that the WNBA grows and these
women are paid more as a result, and we get
more games, maybe next the season, expanded teams, all type

(30:18):
of this stuff.

Speaker 2 (30:18):
So you're saying the rivalry and the fact that they
are the one is black and one is white has
done nothing but actually help the league.

Speaker 14 (30:30):
Black athletes and white athletes do the same thing, and
it's looked at very differently. And with Angel Reese, I
was like, here we go. Like so as a black person,
I'm like, now I got to ride for you because
I got to defend black women.

Speaker 18 (30:44):
I'm gonna be on your side.

Speaker 14 (30:45):
So that's what I remember, like it becoming a huge,
huge thing. And I remember they played the next year
and I remember saying, you know, I did make my joke.
I was like, Race War two is happening.

Speaker 2 (30:58):
So when Catherine Clark was asked about the rivalry and
how fans have used her name in vain to further
their own racist agenda, she had this to say, I
think it's disappointing.

Speaker 19 (31:08):
I think, you know, everybody in our world, you know,
deserves them the same amount of respect. The women in
our league deserve the same amount of respect. So people
should not be easy my name to the first of
those agendas.

Speaker 8 (31:19):
It's disappointing.

Speaker 19 (31:20):
Uh, you know, it's not acceptable, But yeah, I mean
this league is the league I grew up admiring and
wanting to be a part of. Like some of the
women in this league were my biggest idols and role
models growing up and helped me wanting to achieve this
moment right here that I get to play in every
single night. So just treating every single woman this we

(31:40):
leave with the same amount of respect. I think it's
just a basic human thing that everybody should do, Like,
you know, just be a kind person and treats him
you know, how you would want to be treated.

Speaker 2 (31:49):
And I think it's, you know, very simple.

Speaker 17 (31:51):
It's the time right now where you kind of have
to have thick skin, being able to be one of
the faces and just being able to have to wake
up every day and try to be strong. I think
have a great support system and they've helped me through
this all. So I just love waking up every day
and just continue to look in the mirror and saying,
just stay strong, continue to do this. And there's so
many people that look up to me. So I just
continue to wake up every day and just how.

Speaker 2 (32:11):
To be there from heavy is the ground that Angel
must wear. Ron James AAU coach for Angel in high school, so.

Speaker 18 (32:21):
A standard and expectation was there and it just grew
into this lovely coach player relationship where we could talk
about anything and everything and still can't. We still do
to this day. It wasn't always pretty right, but I
was okay with that. You know a lot of people
when you get that and sometimes you know challenge. You know,

(32:42):
Angel challenges, right, but if you think about what she's
challenging about, she's always challenging about strategy of how to win,
and I was always okay with that. There are some
people that just can't handle that kind of a personality.
And I always say, you know, some people are for
Angeling and some people are not. I don't know how
people box her out. She is relentless on the boards.

(33:03):
She has a knap for the ball, but she also
has a star power in the sense that like for me,
when I was playing, I did not leave my house.
I wanted to be so focused on the game ahead.

Speaker 15 (33:12):
But instead, you know, we have women that are so
confident in their game that they can go to met
Gala and come back and get a double double. They
can go on stage with med THEE Stallion and go
out there and break rookie records and WNBA records.

Speaker 8 (33:25):
To me, that's the next.

Speaker 15 (33:26):
Generation where you grew up embracing your differences instead of
trying to conform to what people think you should be
doing as an athlete. And that's what's taking us to
the next level. And that type of confidence. I would
love Angel to just like throw that on me sometimes.

Speaker 2 (33:40):
All that more on episode three, Who Is Angel Reese?
Talk to y'all next week. The Making of a Rivalry
Caitlin Clark Versus Angel Reese is a Be Honest production
in partnership with the Black Effect Podcast Network. In iHeart
women's sports. Written and executive produced by me Carrie Champion.
Supervising producer is Arlene Santana, produced by Jock Vice Thomas

(34:04):
Sound Design and mastered by Dwayne Crawford. Associate producer Olubu
Sayle Shabby. Naked Sports is a part of the Black
Effect podcast network in iHeartMedia. Hey everybody, if you're new
to Naked Sports, welcome to the podcast, and for those
who've been with us since season one, thank you for
right now. We're kicking off season four with this six

(34:25):
episode docu series that you're listening to right now, and
after that, Naked Sports will continue to live at the
intersection of sports, politics, and culture. We're covering all things
from the presidential race to the WNBA Rookie of the
Year contests. This season will be bold, as you can
already tell, no holds barred, but also we'll bring you
that same vulnerable storytelling technique that makes our show so

(34:50):
very unique. We appreciate you for being here and thank
you all for the support. We'll talk to you next week.
Advertise With Us

Host

Cari Champion

Cari Champion

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