Episode 4: A Delicate Balance

In order to get answers, and with only nine days left until Fincher’s execution, Julien must come to terms with his past actions. 

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Episode Transcript

Speaker 1 (00:00):
The Manowa Caves is intended for mature audiences. It contains

(00:03):
strong language and depictions of bullying, violence, and sexual assault
that some may find disturbing. Listener discretion is advised. Also,
this is an extremely immersive experience and headphones are recommended.
You're listening to The Manawat Caves, a production of iHeartRadio,

(00:26):
Blumhouse Television, and Psycopia Pictures. J August fifth. I woke

(00:50):
up in the pool of my own sweat this morning.
It was three thirty three am, exactly three thirty three.
The hotel room was sweltering. The acunit had been blown
out in hot air all night. I took my mind
a minute to catch up to where I was, to
realize that I wasn't still back in my New York apartment,
that I was back home. I thought this had all

(01:13):
just been an elaborate dream. But it wasn't a dream.
I had to listen back to my tape, the recordings
from yesterday, to find out where I'd been and what
I'd done. And his biological father was Deacon Hadley. There

(01:46):
is if you remember what the detective was looking for
when he stopped by that last time back in July
two thousand and seven containers records. I hopped in the shower.

(02:06):
The school off water was ice cold, never got hot,
And as soon as I stepped into that cold shower,
the nightmare came back to me. There were bats, thousands
of bats, shifting blotches against other shades of darkness, a cavern,

(02:28):
deep and strange. I was staring into the whirling black
on black. Then I heard deaconheading. He was calling out
further back in the void, I heard him crying. That's
how I followed the voice, straining to hear over the
cacophony of bats swirling around me, anguished please, for forgiveness.

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Then he stopped, and all I heard was the flutter
and chirp in of those bats. They seemed to converge
around me, and then they exploded out worth the whole colony,
thousands and thousands of them, leaving the cave in a funnel,
carrying Thomas Hadley's final anguish cries with them across the forest,

(03:17):
over the ramshackle trailer homes and cabins, over the Chapel
Wall River into Pottsville, all the way into my own bedroom.
And then suddenly I was back there in the house.
I grew up in my own bed, and the gray
Man was there too, in the room with me, silhouetted

(03:39):
in the doorway. I couldn't move. He looked down upon me.
Maybe he was able to the ground. Who else might

(04:01):
a going out to the caves that day? Someone always
knows something. I wanted to stand up for him, but

(04:28):
I couldn't. Not the time Deacon Hadley threw a couple
of warrant pists on his head from the second story bathroom,
and not the time Thomas Hadley locked him as a locker.
I wanted to stop it, but I knew it would
just make matters worse for me. This is why he

(04:50):
came home, isn't it. James Fancher's executions coming up in
your anguish too, Angel. There's no small thing to stand
up to a bully. When you do, you become the target.

(05:14):
I've been bullied quite a bit when I was a boy.
Wasn't until I befriended Tyler Wilson in the ninth grade
that had stopped. Tyler was from a different neck of
the woods. He was quiet and kept to himself, but
he was tough. No, the Hadley gang didn't want to
fuck with Tyler. It was too much trouble. They might
actually have to fight, and they knew Tyler would fight

(05:35):
for real. But after my battle on the bus with
Duley Tapper trying to stand up for Finch, the bullying
started again for me. I don't look who where's the pants?
I told you they was gay livers, didn't I you're
gonna get it in half? Faget. I don't even get that.

(06:03):
Next week, my dad had to pick me up from school.
He saw the Hadley gang laughing and throwing threats. As
I walked past, he comes, I fag it, you're gonna
get it soon or not. Fucker A time's coming, little
bitch scate. Yeah, I'm whip his ass and gain I'm

(06:26):
gonna whip your ass again. Those your friends not exactly
forget a dad best just to adoring on. Those are
Bobby Handley's kids. Yeah, it's it's not a big deal.
My dad ran the mechanic shop at the Hadley dealership

(06:49):
and it was no secret in our house that he
despised Bobby Hadley. H get messing with you again? What
this is? This is high school. It's it ain't like that, dad, Really,
those guys are just pricks. It's not worth the energy.

(07:13):
He was livid. Things were beyond his control. It was
less than a year since Mom died too. Anyway, A
couple of days later, I was reading in the library
during lunch. That's when they got me. I was sitting

(07:34):
between the rows of bookshelves in the back with Thomas,
Deacon Dually and the rest of them. They cornered me.
Thomas held me in a headlock. Due we hit my
face and box. That wasn't so bad, but then Deacon

(07:58):
gotta para scissors off the librarian's desk. They pulled my
pants down to my ankles. Hey what He scissored the
blades in front of my face to show them off,
before he pressed a cold, sharp metal blades against my bass.
What are you anyway? Boy or a bitch? Hey? You

(08:23):
know what? I'll tell you what a man? Maybe name
send me? He's such a pussy, Just get off. Then
he grabs stress full of my hair and it was loan.
Then he scissored it off and tossed it on the carpet.

(08:43):
Just then the library mother came back in and put
mencim Thomas and the rest of them all bring off.
Was laughing there were a few other kids in the
library who did nothing but gawk at me while I
pulled my pants back up. Well, my father picked me
up that afternoon. He saw my hair and my swollen face,

(09:06):
and there was no deny at it anymore. His son
was the target of the town police, and there was
nothing he could do. August fifth, on my way to

(09:27):
meet Joe Campbell again, up the road, halfway to Nashville.
I'm late. I can't seem to wake up all the way.
She just stopped at the Myrtles for a coffee. It's
a little diner we used to go to when I
was a Kid's still standing. Not so sure about missus
Myrtle though. I feel like a ghost in this town.

(09:52):
Lots of familiar faces from my past, everyone older and heavier.
They make eye contact with me and their real spin.
Some recognize me of familiar face registers in their mind,
but they can't quite place me, so they stare. Others
remember me, and I'm guessing by their looks. You recall
certain feelings, feelings associated with the Hadley Brothers murders, especially now.

(10:19):
You can feel the energy just driving through town. James Fincher,
the monster and Man of war County is going to
be put to death next week, and that seems to
inform every interaction. It's an added tension that's come with
this fog, the air tingling like a mom on a

(10:46):
timer tick tick boom, a county judge ordered, and no

(11:21):
knock worn on the trailer that James Fincher shared with
his sister Dina, and Buck's elder lane over in splinter gap,
you can see from the only available footage a state
trooper's body camp, that it's complete chaos, with county and
state officials working in tandem and flooded in the small
space with light and the noise and the terror. At
three o'clock in the morning, Dina's face seemed briefly mouth

(11:43):
opened to scream, hair swept across her face as she
spirited out. Bally swollen with child tells the tale. In
the motion blur, you can see a streak of red
a nose bleed. What's perhaps more chun is how calmly
we see Finch rise from the couch that he slept on,

(12:05):
hands up, eyes dead, mouth a grim line, and then
slowly turned and sink to his knees like it was inevitable,
like he knew they were coming, like he always knew
that they would come for him. Eventually, he was brought
to the county jail in the middle of the night,

(12:25):
and the town at large was completely unaware of the developments.
Even Detective Silomon Smith was left in the dark and
would have remained so if he didn't decide to pay
the Fincher home and visit himself two days later to
find broken windows and a very terrified Dina trying to
put things back in order. Jill Campbell explained it best.
That's per usual. People have a complicated relationship with the

(12:50):
law out here. People here liked to be left alone.
Think what happens behind closed doors are on their property
is their business and theirs alone. I mean, most of
it is a run of the male constitutional rights and
individual freedom stuff. Deah, my dad, it was that way. Yeah,
well most people are. Then you got your griff Washingtons,

(13:13):
the dog fighting rings, the meth cooks, the real criminal element,
people who have something to hide. But Buddy, there ain't
nothing that changes the patriots mind about authority like an
outsider coming in and making trouble. L Finch, I'm talking
about Detective Smith. Now, I don't want to say it

(13:36):
was a race thing. But it was absolutely a race thing.
I mean by default. Look, Share Hooper, born and raised
here all his life, getting ready to close this case
against a kid who allegedly murdered two of Mani Wak's
favorite sons, and the moment he announces it incomes some
former big city Atlanta cop to defend the alleged murderer.

(14:02):
At the time, I was caught up in all the excitement.
I was there at the raid. It was the most
badass thing I'd ever done. Didn't matter that Dana was
screaming or that James gave up without a fight. I
was young. I got to play hero. It didn't even
occur to me that we may have had shit wrong
until the article came out. The article What an article?

(14:25):
Detective Smith went to the local press. A couple of
days later, a story printed about James Fincher with Solomon
owned records suggesting ulterior motives for the rest of Finch
no shit. Other publications picked it up to Smith publicly
called out the sheriff, the mayor, the reverend, basically torturing

(14:46):
every bridge he ever crossed in manu Wake County. What
was the last time you saw him Detective Smith. Well
after the news piece broke, I wrote with Hooper out
to the old fowl or place where Solomon was living
and had that go. Hooper made me wait on the porch.

(15:08):
There was a lot of shouting and then it got quiet,
and then and then Hooper came out. His face was
flushed and sweaty. He wouldn't make eye contact. He was
visibly mad as hell. Anyway, last I saw Solomon Smith

(15:30):
was as we were pulling out. He was standing on
the porch, hands on his hips, just to find as
hell to Hooper SAE what had happened. Hooper told Smith
he was no longer welcome and man of walk count
in that if he knew what was good for him,

(15:51):
he'd leave quietly. But I don't think Detective Smith left
because of Hooper. I think he knew who the killer
was before he disappeared. He was looking into the school
attendance records from Carter High. He was tracking whoever else

(16:12):
was absent from school that day. You think he would
have submitted those records as evidence had it not. If
it was after he was off the case. He couldn't
exactly trust the sheriff's office. He was basically a private investigator.
At that point, he'd set a meeting with James's defense attorney,

(16:32):
but he never showed up. So whatever Solomon Smith knew,
he took that intel with him to wherever it is
he went. Where was you last seen? I'm not sure
they found his car though, about a decade ago, just

(16:54):
north of here. I think I don't remember. Maybe I
can dig up the police report, or maybe you can
talk to the guys at the newspaper. August fifth, two
forty five pm. I took Joe's advice. I'm on my

(17:14):
way to the Pottsville Press to talk to a guy
named Ian Spanks, the editor in chief. Maybe Detective Smith
told the press something, something more than what they decided
to print. Mister Spinks, Julian Solace, mister Slace, come in.

(17:41):
You can call me Jolian. Looking a little rough around
the edge since the last time I saw you. The
last time, Yeah, I doubt you'd remember me. I was
just a facing the crowd the courthouse back then. You
were there for that. Okay, Well, thanks for seeing me.
How could I know? I'm hoping you'll be the skyline
I was Sunday's front page about James Fincher and the

(18:02):
fourteen year anniversary of the Heathy Brothers murders. Prodigal Son
returns right the wrongs he himself contributed to hell of
a story. Interested to see where it goes. Well, you're
not serious, I am. I think we can help each
other out here. Well, I just need the tapes. The tapes,
they're of interest in my research. The press interview with

(18:25):
Detective Smith from two thousand and seven. Oh oh, I
thought you were interested in the other ones. What's other ones? Well?
The ones are you? What are you talking about? This
is Sheriff Hooper's and tear gage of you. Can I

(18:57):
please go to the bathroom, sir? Just top more questions?
All right? So, okay, you're not in trouble yet, all right, Okay,
look at me. Yeah, what you say here now there's
just between you and me. Nobody's gonna find out. Nobody's

(19:20):
gonna be mad at you for saying what you know.
And I think it's safe to say that you do
know things. Now. Earlier you said that James Fincher hated
the Hadley Brothers. Is that right? Well, yeah, but because

(19:40):
of what they did to his sister, what they did
to Dina but you weren't there for that, were you? No?
But yeah? Moving on, moving on the point is James
Fincher had it out for the Hadleys? Is that right now?
You really need to be straight with me, Son, Yes, sir,

(20:03):
you could say he hated them enough to want to
hurt them. Couldn't you that he wanted revenge? I couldn't
say all that was true. It's simply based Look at
these photos, Son, Look at him. Blunt forced trauma to
the head, multiple stab wounds. Hell, Deacon Hadley was bashed

(20:27):
so hard in the head that his left eyeball was
hanging out of his eye socket. Thomas's throat cut. Can
you imagine the type of hatred you would have to feel, Julian,
to relentlessly bash a human body to the point where
it is almost unrecognizable? Well? Can you, Son, I don't

(20:49):
need Can you defend the kind of person that could
do that? Could you feel this sort of hatred? Well?
I no, I don't know. I need to go to
the bathroom. But do you know that James Fincher hated them?
Don't you? You can say that? I need you to

(21:12):
say that. Say what what you want me to say? Say?
What that James Fincher hated them, that he wanted to
hurt them now, that he wanted revenge, that he obsessed
over them. He made up stories about them to wreck
their lives. Didn't That's just not true. No, he didn't.
He did. You know he did? He didn't just because

(21:34):
they picked on him. No, he didn't. Julian, have you
heard the phrase accessory after the fact? It means that
if you know something, something crucial to my investigation of

(21:55):
the murder of Thomas and Deacon Hadley, and you withhold it, well,
then you're guilty too. And I think you know something, boy,
And if you don't tell me now and I find
out later, there ain't no jury in the world gonna
let you be free. I don't. They always used to

(22:15):
bully in And he knew it too, didn't you. You
knew what he was planning because you boys were going
down there at the caves all the time. Hell, you
showed him the place yourself, didn't you. I didn't. You
didn't what, Julian? You showed James Fincher the ins and

(22:36):
outs of it. And that's okay, son, There's nothing wrong
with that. Everybody likes a little frill I'm not suggesting
you knew that you were dealing with a psychopath, did you?
You're not a bad kid he used you, didn't he No,
he got in your head, he tricked you. No, no

(22:58):
he didn't. He could plan no revenge, No, no, I
just we went there to hang out. We were just
It wasn't the Hadley's idea to go down there that night,
was it? No? Because if they wanted to hurt James,
they do it right out in the open, right, They've

(23:19):
been doing it for years. But James wanted to play
for keeps and he knew just the place. James wanted
to take them out to the caves. That now, you
better tell me the truth, son. You know we got

(23:39):
your buddy Tyler here too, right. Oh yeah, yeah, he's
right across the hall, and he's already told us the truth.
So what's it going to be your story or his? Now? Talk?
James Fincher wanted to take them out to the caves,
didn't he answer me? Maybe? Yeah? I guess what? What?

(24:10):
What's that? Yeah? I didn't get that James Fincher had
the idea to bring the boys down there. Yes, yeah, yes?
Did you hear him when he suggested they go down
there and settle the score once and for all. Where
is he? Where is my son? Oh? Shit, now, Paul,

(24:34):
you know you can't be in here. What the fuck up?
This is between me and my boy? What did you say?
What did you tell off? When I ask you a question?
What did you say? Hi, Paul, that's domestic confused. I'm
gonna rest your ass too. Now you better call the
fuck you better back the fuck off. You understand me.
This is between me and hand easy. I got a feeling.

(24:56):
I got a feeling. We're on the same side here. Anyway,
sit down out to speak a little louder Son, right
into the mic. There, go on, Son, unburden yourself James

(25:16):
and sure, absolutely and without any doubt, go on. Now
murder TKT and Thomas Hadley in those games. There you go, Son,
You've done the right thing. You know that that wasn't

(25:41):
the real story. Well it certainly helped get James Fincher
the death sense, didn't you, But it wasn't the truth
that was coerced. Well I don't doubt that. What was
the truth? Then you might if I here record, I'd
rather you not. This could really help your case. I
mean having a news story out there, you never know

(26:02):
who might come for. Do you think that could work?
Maybe that's what was the truth? What truth about James
Fincher telling the Head Brothers to meet him at the caves?
He wouldn't have off the record, Okay, off the record?
Why not? Because he wouldn't have. And why did you

(26:22):
say he did? Just listen, he didn't kill him? Okay,
Well it sounds like you know something. No, Detective Smith
knew something, which is why I'm here. He was onto
something and this paper interviewed him before he disappeared. He
was following up on a lead, which I am kind

(26:43):
of lead, that kind of lead that would exonerate James
Fincher and then lo and behold he vanished, fucking gone.
His car found somewhere just north of town. Did you
guys run a story on that. I'd have to look
into the archives. Yeah, you do that. In dig up
that interview with Smith and their information, you can about
his involvement with to have the murder case from two
thousand and seven, and I'll give you an interview, how

(27:05):
about that on the record, you bet? And while you're
at and find out where they found miss Carr, will you,
you have myself. The truth is, I don't remember James
asking to have the brothers to meet him up at
the case. It doesn't make any sense. I knew Finch

(27:27):
better than anyone in the world outside of Dina. Maybe
he was my friend, him and Tyler and him asking
Tacon and Thomas to go out to the caves alone. Nah,
I don't think that's what happened that night. I never
thought that's what happened. When you think of the fairytale

(28:10):
version of Appalachia, my early childhood was pretty much. It
would smoke and gray blue winter mornings, trumping with my
father and the snow to see the icicles hanging off
the eaves of our little home. Apple picking and drives
to look at leaves changing in the fall, Tomato sandwiches
the swimming hole, and roadside boiled peanuts in the summer.

(28:33):
Dad worked for Hadley Pontiac. He tolerated the job because
he loved my mother, and when I came along, I'd
like to think he loved me too. I could never
really tell. When I was young, he was a little
hard on me. When I was eighteen, my mother died.

(28:53):
Of course, everything changed. When my mother died a family
is like a mobile danglet from the ceiling. It's a
balancing act. You never have any idea how much a
single person can hold together a family until they are
no longer in the position to do so. She got sick.

(29:16):
It was sudden stage four sophageal cancer. After the test,
they gave her four months. She lasted three the end.
It was horrible. When she went, she took the best
parts of my father with her, and the Idella claugh
we shared. Dad started drinking again. Of course, I know

(29:42):
what you're thinking. You're thinking that because of his drink,
and he faded into the background or neglected me. Nope,
not my father. He wasn't a neglectful absent your father.
He watched me closer, became increasingly obsessed with my safety,
micromanage my existence. Always wanted to know my eggs whereabouts,
wanted precise details about where I was going and with whom.

(30:03):
Wanted me home immediately after school every day, and would
go bat shit when I didn't. He hated my friends,
called Tyler common trash, which of course made me want
to spend more time away from home, more time in
the woods with Tyler. I only wanted to escape my
childhood and the house that felt forever empty and haunted
after my mother's death. And that's when he became violent

(30:27):
when I started lying once I told him I was
going with the debate team to a nearby town for
a tournament. Instead, I set out to the caves with Tyler.
There were lights in the rear view following us out
past the edge of town. I thought maybe Griff Washington
was patrolling his property, maybe following us to make sure

(30:48):
we didn't trust pass. But when we pulled over for gas,
hoping whoever was following us would pass on by, they didn't.
They pulled in right behind us. Turned out as my father.
He had been tailing us. He dragged me by the
back of my neck out of Tyler's car and threw
me into his. When we got back home, he locked

(31:10):
me in the basement for twelve hours. It was only
a crawl space with a small cinder block room for
the furnace. I remember while I was locked down there,
I found an old chest filled with my mother's clothes.
It was freezing, so I put him on. They almost
fit an old sweater and that scarf she was knitting

(31:32):
for me when she died. That red scarf. It was
that same week I met Finch. I know it was
that week because the first thing he said to me
was that he liked my red scarf. Wilson repair he Tyler's. Julian, Well, oh, Julie,

(32:01):
what a while with the pleasure. I know it's late.
I hate to pass to you, Grace and me with
your presence twice in forty eight hours. I mean, after
what fourteen fucking years radio silence? Oh well, I don't
mean to be caused. After a little visit to the cave,
I got to thinking about how you ain't changed. Bad man?
How's that you're one of those top pigle only ever

(32:23):
call when you need something? So go on? What can
I do for you now, Julian? Damn, Well, you got
me bagged. I guess I'm just I'm just fucking with

(32:47):
your man. Hell, none of my friends ever called me
anyway listening need something? Oh you've got friends? Oh high
fucking high. So what's a Well? I just um the
AC unit my piece of shit motel. I'd call maintenance,

(33:08):
but I don't want to deal with Did you check
the filter? No, I'm nine percent it's just a clock.
Pull the face off and take the filter out. You
can run it without for the night, but sooner or
later you should probably just come and take my spare
room like I told you. O. Man, I mean, well,
if my company's not good enough for wait second, you're

(33:29):
doing that thing? Yeah? Got you again? Listen. That isn't
the only reason I called I Else. I wanted to
say it was good to see you the other day. Man,
it's been way too long. I know, I know that.
I look you there. Can I ask you something? What?

(33:56):
Why'd you come back? What do you mean? I mean, Julian,
there is a lot you don't understand here. This is
bigger than bigger than what exactly I'm trying to help

(34:19):
you here, Julian, things are in a delicate balance, all right.
What what thinks my ass and reflux? What the fuck
you think I'm talking about? Man, you don't understand. Oh,
I don't understand. I had to come back to what
you should resent to that earth. You're playing with fire here.

(34:40):
You have no idea what you're mess It's not just
for me. I'm trying to do the right thing here
for Fish. I'm trying to help him. Don't you think
I mind? He's on death row Tie's part to play
all right here, I'm gonna well, I'm not gonna sit

(35:07):
on my ass watching Jeffard and smoking cigarettes. Did you
know there were others other kids who were absent from
school that day other than Thomas and Deacon. What you know, Tyler? Tyler? Tyler, Tyler?

(35:49):
Can you hear me? Tyler? I lost you man? What
the hell? What the fuck? Fuck? H M A ghost

(36:55):
in the mirror. In the Hounds of Dancing The Manowat
Caves stars Jonathan Tucker as Julian Salis, Eddie Gatheggie as

(37:18):
James Fincher, Clark Peters as Detective Solomon Smith, Nick Sercy
as Sheriff Kirby Hooper, Justin Wellborn as Tyler Wilson, Jill
Jane Clements as Jill Campbell, Brad Carter as Dooley Tappard,
Scott Poythress as Reverend Perkins, Samantha Ashley as Deana Fincher,
Justin Matthews Smith as Paul Salace, Tara Oakes as Laura Salis,

(37:42):
Jonathan Horn as Deacon Hadley, Alden Kronovitch as Thomas Hadley,
Mike w Anderson as Griff Washington, Bodie Walter Roth as
Jimmy Fincher, Brian McClure as Ian Spinks, Larry Clark as
Bobby Hadley, Peyton Fallis as Ed le Blanc, Vic Polis Says,
William Fowler, Nick Dakosky as Richard Rydell, and Aileen Loy

(38:05):
as The Darkness, with additional performances by Clint McGown, Dina Dill,
Edward Howard, Henry Foster Brown, Jamie Joseph, Juan Manzalez, Christopher Curry,
Bailey Hyneman, David Mitchell, and Bernard Sataro Clark. Created by
Connell Byrne and Dan Bush. Written by Dan Bush, Zoe

(38:27):
Cooper and Nicholas Dakaski featuring our theme song Killer Inside,
written produced and performed by Lear Lynn. Our executive producers
are Matt Frederick, Alexander Williams, Michael Monte, and Courtney Dufrees.
Our executive producers at Blumhouse Television are Jeremy Gold, Chris Dickey,
and Noah Feinberg. Produced by Dan Bush, music by Ben Lovett.

(38:51):
Additional music by Alexander Rodriguez, edited by Dan Bush, Chris Childs,
Stephen Perez and David Chen. Sound designed by Benjamin Malcolm. Dialogue,
editing and sound mixing by Wan Campus. Recorded at Studio
Awesome in Los Angeles, Sound by Studio in Atlanta and
Echo Mountain in Asheville. Casting by Sunday Bowling, Kennedy and

(39:13):
Meg Mormon. Our dialect coach is Linda Bassesti, Assistant director,
Michael Monte second assistant director, script supervisor and production coordinator
Sarah Klein. Supervising producer Josh Thine. Special thanks to Mary
Ellen and Jason Davis, Jonathan Deeter, and Joe Rickman. The
Manoel Caves is a production of iHeartRadio, Blumhouse Television, and

(39:37):
Psychopia Pictures.