Episode Transcript
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Speaker 1 (00:07):
Today, we're recording Martha's podcast from my home in Bedford,
New York, and I am so happy to have an
old friend here today, a friend who is married to
another friend. Sila Berger and her husband Michael are the
quintessential productive, artistic New York couple. They are the best
(00:29):
kind of friends to have, extremely intelligent, extremely connected to
people in the arts, music, writing, and media. And they
live in the infamous and storied Chelsea Hotel on West
twenty third Street in New York City. To me, when
(00:50):
I first met them, they were so intriguing, kind of mysterious,
and just the kind of couple I wanted to know
in New York City. I came to know Sheila as
a creator of bright, vivid paintings reflecting her exotic travels
and her nature inspired sculptures. I'm so happy to have
(01:10):
her here today to talk about her work and her inspirations.
Welcome to my podcast, Sheila.
Speaker 2 (01:17):
Oh, thank you so much, Martha. I'm really happy to
be here.
Speaker 1 (01:21):
It's great to have you here. The first thing I
asked her was did she want her cappuccino? Because every
time Sheila and Michael, her lovely husband, come to visit,
they immediately go to the capuccino machine.
Speaker 2 (01:33):
Because you make the perfect cappuccino. I know it's every time.
Speaker 1 (01:36):
Well, we have so much to talk about. Sheila was
when she started a career as a model. I understand
that's true. And tell us just a little bit about
where did you grow up? When did you start coming
to New York City? When did you start knowing that
instead of modeling, you were going to be a world
famous artist.
Speaker 2 (01:58):
Do you remember a magazine called Madam is Awe? Of
course that's.
Speaker 1 (02:01):
Where I started my model Oh you I did. I
was a college girl. I was a glamor. Oh, I
was a glamor bestress college girl when I was a freshman.
And Barnard and then they also Mademoiselle then picked up
on that because they were Conde sister magazines.
Speaker 2 (02:18):
They were sister, but they were different.
Speaker 1 (02:19):
Oh they were different. Yeah, Eatie Walk legendary editors.
Speaker 2 (02:23):
Yeah.
Speaker 1 (02:23):
Where were you in college that you dropped?
Speaker 2 (02:26):
No? I was in Wisconsin. But a few years later
I promised my mother. The deal was that I could
go to New York and I could skip out of
college in Wisconsin if I promised to go back. And
so in my mid twenties. I went to Nyu. Oh
you did, and that's where I graduate.
Speaker 1 (02:41):
Good girl. And nowadays kids do that all the time,
But back then that was kind of risque, Yeah.
Speaker 2 (02:49):
A little bit. I mean I ended I one of
the reasons when this editor of Mademoiselle introduced me to
all of the agencies, and so I leaned forward offered
her home. This woman was appropriate, in appropriate, right, that
you would that you would watch out and you would
be safe, and that I would be safe.
Speaker 1 (03:07):
Little did were you?
Speaker 2 (03:09):
Of course not?
Speaker 1 (03:10):
Oh when did you first go to Paris to model?
When did she send you?
Speaker 2 (03:14):
Ah? That was that was Paris. I went for the
collections and then I just I just didn't come back.
I ended up just staying there for two years.
Speaker 1 (03:23):
Oh really, Oh great? Who are you modeling with at
those times?
Speaker 2 (03:27):
In the early eighties, The first photographer I kind of
worked with was Peter Limberg.
Speaker 1 (03:32):
Oh wow.
Speaker 2 (03:33):
And I did the early collections of Gautier and Kenzo
and Chloe and that was an early one. But I
really worked for for all of the designers wonderful and
for Italian Vogue and French Vogue, and that's where the
traveling began for me. Is because it gave me an
opportunity to really and the.
Speaker 1 (03:54):
New winter Paris and stayed there.
Speaker 2 (03:57):
I did.
Speaker 1 (03:57):
I went to Paris and I came back. But I
remember doing the collections. I mean here, I am a
sixteen year old doing the collections in Paris, and I
remember showing up for a goot see and my dress
was a little wrinkle from I guess from packing right,
And it was just a little homemade dress that my
mother put in a suitcase. And they chastised me for
arriving in a wrinkled dress. Really, and I told them
(04:20):
while it was in the suitcase and I wasn't going
to be photographed in that dress, but they said, you
are a model and you must never walk around in
a wrinkled dress.
Speaker 2 (04:28):
And you've never walked around in a wrinkle.
Speaker 1 (04:30):
Dress since no way, I learned my lesson. But it
was so it was so exciting, and I learned self
confidence over there. I mean it was it was. It
was a rough and tumble world. And at night all
these parties. Did you go to all.
Speaker 2 (04:46):
All the parties, Oh my goodness.
Speaker 1 (04:48):
There was I met men from all over the world
and they always had men around at those at those parties,
and it was. It was just a lot of fun.
But so you stayed in Paris for two whole years, for.
Speaker 2 (04:59):
Two years, but traveling it was constant travel, Like you'd
go to Germany to do catalog work, or you would
go to Milan and you would do more. I don't know,
a lot of editorial and so I was basically living
out of a suitcase. And actually that taught me how
to pack light. Oh yes, and you still do it
and I still lighter.
Speaker 1 (05:20):
Yeah. Then you came back to New York.
Speaker 2 (05:23):
I came back to New York. I worked for Stephen
Mysel was a photographer I worked with And have you
worked with Stephen.
Speaker 1 (05:31):
My Never see as you should work with you? That
was in the future of modeling for me those But
I worked with Evidon, oh my god. And I worked
with Scavulo, oh wow. And I worked with Horn Grinder,
who were like the top commercial photographers at the time,
and a few other bad boy photographers. There were some
(05:51):
really bad boys photographers at those in those days.
Speaker 2 (05:53):
There were a lot of course you were like that
was also a good lesson to learn how to how
to now.
Speaker 1 (06:00):
Yeah, survived the raucous men. Yeah, yeah, So do you
remember how we first met.
Speaker 2 (06:09):
I do remember really clearly how we first met. How well,
I'm going to say, I wouldn't hear your story, No, no,
I want to hear your mine. Is that Michael, who's
also a constitutional lawyer. He besides being a writer, he
wrote a piece, an op editorial, and it was about
your case. He just felt that the case, he felt
(06:30):
it should never have gone to prosecution. He's read all
and so he wrote about it. And then there was
also he felt im he should be sitting here because
I know the words are things should be specific. But
it was that he felt that there was somebody on
the jury that shouldn't have been on the jury.
Speaker 1 (06:47):
It was it was almost a jury. Yeah, but you
know I can, I can talk about it very impersonally now.
You know. At the time, it was it was life
or death for me in a funny way because it
was it was so serious. Is taking me out of
my business, out of the things I love to do,
and away from my family. It was horror. It was
horrific and I and I really loved Michael for writing
(07:10):
an op ed piece so so eloquently. And that's when
I became really close friends with Michael's.
Speaker 2 (07:17):
Then it was through Michael Stone.
Speaker 1 (07:19):
That's right, your boyfriend, my first boyfriend after my divorce,
Michael Stone. And who was hanging out with you? Oh yeah,
he was so much fun.
Speaker 2 (07:29):
It's so fun.
Speaker 1 (07:30):
So smart, yeah, very very swart smart and very good writer,
very and a very nice boyfriend.
Speaker 2 (07:37):
By the way, and a nice person.
Speaker 1 (07:39):
Yes, a nice person. And what I liked about him
especially was he had had had many girlfriends and he
was friends with all his ex girlfriends.
Speaker 2 (07:47):
That's because I'm so kind.
Speaker 1 (07:49):
Yeah, I thought that was a really nice trade about
him and Michael Stone to remember his Putinesca. Of course
it was really.
Speaker 2 (07:57):
Joy I know it was. But he only made two things.
Speaker 1 (08:00):
That was the only days, and everybody wanted to be
invited to one of his dinner parties because he really
made good.
Speaker 2 (08:07):
For he made good putenesca, but he also put together
great people.
Speaker 1 (08:11):
He did. And that was New York's magazine in the heyday,
and he was writing cover stories and he was just
he was really a bone vivon. And then in the
nicest way, and I got to meet his entire family
and really really fun guy. Alexis introduced me to him.
Really yeah, she said, Mom, this is a good guy
to go go out with. She was right, she was right. Unfortunately,
(08:34):
Michael Stone is no longer with us, No, and that's
too bad. But his memory lives on. See we're talking
about him. Yeah, you have nice thoughts about him.
Speaker 2 (08:43):
Oh, I loved him. But I do remember something else
about our meeting that afterwards you asked Michael Stone to
set up a dinner. Is this what you remember? And
it was at satametso oh, and that was my first
meet time I met you, and I was I.
Speaker 1 (08:58):
Was nervous because you the great beauty was coming and
I wanted to look nice. And you came in. It's
like a transparent blouse. You looked so good. I remember.
Speaker 2 (09:08):
I don't remember what I was wearing, but I remember you.
Speaker 1 (09:12):
You could see your raw underneath the chiffon blouse. Wow,
and I never wore things like that. But yeah, it
was a black braw and black, I think, the sort
of thin black blouse. It was very, very lovely.
Speaker 2 (09:25):
Thank you. Well, what I remember when you said you
were you were? I found you to be so calm.
I couldn't believe that you could sit in a restaurant
and have dinner and have conversation with what you had
hanging over you.
Speaker 1 (09:41):
That's what we were in my trial.
Speaker 2 (09:42):
It was during our trial, and you were great.
Speaker 1 (09:46):
So this years have gone by and we have stayed
in I wouldn't say the closest of touch, but but
close touch. I know your daughter so well. I love
her so much, Love Nikolaia. I' her career urgeon. And
I followed you moving out of the Chelsea Hotel into
an uptown airy.
Speaker 2 (10:08):
With a view.
Speaker 1 (10:10):
And you didn't like that as much as the Chelsea Hotel,
did you Well.
Speaker 2 (10:14):
I did love the view. I love the view a lot.
In fact, I finally understood what the big view was about,
being able to see the water, the boats coming in.
Speaker 1 (10:25):
But there was a roof and you were growing things
on the roof. I remember your garden and you would
take me up there all the time to show me
the great accomplishments that you were able to perform up
on that roof. Extraordinary. You were a true gardener.
Speaker 2 (10:41):
I love doing it. I love doing it so much.
Speaker 1 (10:44):
But then you moved back to the Chelsea Hotel once
it was refurbished, and we.
Speaker 2 (10:48):
Moved to a different apartment.
Speaker 1 (10:49):
Yeah, and I love your apartment.
Speaker 2 (10:51):
Oh thank you, I love it.
Speaker 1 (10:53):
And you travel. Another thing that I'm very envious of
is the is the travels that you have done over
your entire life. You are an intrepid intrepid travelers tell
us about that. Where did that come from?
Speaker 2 (11:08):
I can tell you that my mom she saved everything,
really everything. And so my sister and I were going
through all of her papers and I found two things
that she had saved, and one of them was what
she thought each of us would do when we grew up,
and she wrote down Shila the artist. And then I
found another paper. It was in first grade. You know
(11:30):
how they would have you write what I want to
be when I grow up, And I said, I want
to be an artist and I want to travel. Explanation brls.
Oh nice, So I think I always.
Speaker 1 (11:43):
I always had the one.
Speaker 2 (11:44):
I always dreamt about it.
Speaker 1 (11:45):
But then you also gave that to your daughter because
she traveled with you so much.
Speaker 2 (11:49):
She traveled with me in Utero. I was pregnant as
I went to Uzbekistan. I had thought that I was
not going to be able to travel anymore, and so
I because I would have to be at home with
a baby, so I thought, oh, well, you know, I'll
take my last trip, and I hadn't done the Silk Road.
I also wanted to visit Iran, and so I was
(12:11):
trying to get an individual tourist visa and it was
very difficult to get and I was pregnant and I
needed permission to travel pregnant. So I had found a
doctor in London who gave me permission to travel up
to six months. And then I took off to Uzbekistan
and traveled there for about a month. And I would
call and ask if my visa came in, and Tashka
(12:32):
did come to arrive. It finally arrived on July fifteenth,
my visa to Iran, and I gave birth August nineteenth.
So I stood there and thought, I think this is irresponsible.
Speaker 1 (12:46):
So you did not go to Iraq. I did not go,
and so you've ever been since.
Speaker 2 (12:49):
And I've never been to Iran, which is on the list.
Speaker 1 (12:52):
It's one of it is, it's on my list also.
But we cannot go together. We cannot go there now. No,
not now, I don't I don't know. I'm not no,
I don't think so I don't think we're ever going
to see I wanted to go to Isfahan, where the
roses and Hira's rugs. I just think of every city
(13:13):
in terms of what they are well known. I've been there.
Oh No, I didn't get any rugs, though, but I
went there. I went to that part of Lower Russia.
I call it Lower Russia, but it's not really. But
what a fabulous countryside that is. So you traveled a
lot alone too? Always yeah, always see.
Speaker 2 (13:35):
Well, no one. Frankly, at a certain point, no one
wanted to go to the places I was going to.
I couldn't find, and then I thought, well, this isn't
so bad, and in fact it was really nice. I
ended up staying with families and really learning about the culture.
And it's made me when I see all the fighting
going on with all the governments, I just don't I
(13:57):
just don't get it.
Speaker 1 (13:59):
I don't either, But that's another podcast. I was invited
by Sheila and Michael to attend the fabulous migratory birds,
the sand hill cranes that come to Nebraska once a
(14:22):
year for three months, for three months where they feed
on the cornfields, that's right, and then they leave to
go north.
Speaker 2 (14:31):
That's right.
Speaker 1 (14:32):
So tell us about that, Yeah, tell us about it.
Speaker 2 (14:34):
Oh, well, it's really incredible. It is the absolute largest
migration of sand hill cranes in the world. And eighty
percent of all the sand hill cranes are there are
there are there?
Speaker 1 (14:47):
How many? And how many? How many? Six hundred and
fifty thousand?
Speaker 2 (14:50):
Is that this year they said they were eight hundred
and fifty Wow, eight.
Speaker 1 (14:54):
Hundred and fifty thousand similar birds in one place and
how many? How many square miles? Uh?
Speaker 2 (15:02):
Oh that I don't know, not much like when you
look at like there was at one point I was
looking at their migratory path and it looks like it
funnels funnel and then it funnels the opposite direction.
Speaker 1 (15:14):
Right, Yeah, you can you can look online at the
sand hill Crane dot com and uh and learn about
these amazing birds. But they're very beautiful birds.
Speaker 2 (15:25):
They're beautiful. They're beautiful, and they're they're kind of heartbreakingly beauty.
They have a heart, like a heart right in on
the top of their heads. I love how they look.
Speaker 1 (15:35):
I do.
Speaker 2 (15:35):
But they're also really prehistoric looking and tall three to
four feet.
Speaker 1 (15:39):
Yeah, they have long legs, long legs. Yeah, they're long
legged cranes. And what did you feel watching watching the migration?
Speaker 2 (15:47):
Euphoric? I mean, it's majestic, it's loud. It's also really
sexy too. I mean they're they're mating, they're coming there
to mate, so there's so much activity going on, mating
and eating, mating and eating.
Speaker 1 (16:03):
And then going off to builder ness and have their
babies north.
Speaker 2 (16:06):
Then they'll go off. Okay, that's exactly where do they go?
Speaker 1 (16:08):
I said, that's the one part that my missing the story.
Speaker 2 (16:12):
They go to Canada, they go to Alaska, and they
go to eastern Siberia.
Speaker 1 (16:17):
How they do Yeah?
Speaker 2 (16:18):
And then below where they are during the winter is
like Texas, Mexico, New Mexico like that.
Speaker 1 (16:27):
And so they're all having their babies now and we
have but Jill and I have this peculiar love of birds.
Isn't it funny? When is it? When did the verd
things start with you?
Speaker 2 (16:39):
Oh? It's something I shared with my mom.
Speaker 1 (16:41):
Did she keep birds in her house?
Speaker 2 (16:43):
They just were attracted to her like birds are attracted
to you. They were attracted to her. So she always
had a lot of birds nesting, you know, robins and
bluebirds and cardinals and.
Speaker 1 (16:54):
On your property.
Speaker 2 (16:55):
Yes, and she loved them.
Speaker 1 (16:57):
Did she feed the birds? Did she feed the wild birds?
Speaker 2 (17:00):
Times? Sometimes? But mostly she would just watch them. I
and observe them all the time, and it's sort of
there was a story. I used to go in planter
garden in the spring, and I went to Saint Louis
and my parents were pretty infirmed, so they were living
(17:20):
they didn't go out much, and in their kitchen was
a big picture window, and in front of the picture window,
she had always said, these two planters hanging, and I
would take them down and put flowers in and put
them back off. But this time I took them down
and in one was an empty nest, and then the
other was a nest full of Robin's as oh. And
I carefully put the nest up, sorry, the planter back up,
(17:44):
hooked it back up, and then I took the empty
nest back to my studio in New York and found
this beautiful marble pedestal and put this empty nest that
was kind of falling apart. I felt like it needed
to be elevated. There was something about, well, when you
talk about craftsmanship, the craftsmanship of birds, oh, that they
(18:04):
build with their beak and their feet and their bellies,
the way they build their nests, it's just it's amazing.
A nest and it's so too.
Speaker 1 (18:13):
So birds became a central theme of your art.
Speaker 2 (18:17):
They became a central thing, and there was something that
I could talk about with my mom all the time.
We related through that you're really a sculpture, right, it's
really public art.
Speaker 1 (18:27):
Three dimensional public art. And so now Sheila is renowned
for birds, these giant stainless steel, beautifully crafted birds. They're
kind of storybook birds. I consider them storybook because they're
they're so charming. Describe one of your birds. Describe your
(18:48):
first bird and how you made it. I don't know
how you make those?
Speaker 2 (18:51):
Well, it's like, what was that that you showed me
earlier that somebody wrote about you every day?
Speaker 1 (18:58):
Oh, elevate the every day.
Speaker 2 (19:00):
Yes, elevate the every day. When I thought that, that's
how I feel about these humble birds, sparrows, starlings.
Speaker 1 (19:09):
So you're big birds, the big bird that you that
you sculpt and steal. What kind of bird is that?
Speaker 2 (19:15):
It is?
Speaker 1 (19:16):
Not?
Speaker 2 (19:16):
It's a kind of combination. It's a combination of all
those birds. It's it's a humble the small and not
the crows.
Speaker 1 (19:25):
It's not a crow.
Speaker 2 (19:25):
It's not a crow. And then the other thing that
happens if you when you think about enlarging air. Something
small like a bird, it's cute when it's small, but
when it's big, it can look like, you know, a
dinosaur age. And so how I was always thinking, how
can I make it friendly? And because the whole point
is I want people to identify with nature and love
(19:48):
birds as much as I love them, and so.
Speaker 1 (19:51):
And these birds make one smile. I mean, I just
smile when I see one of your sculptures. And how
many birds? How many these monumental birds have you actually crafted?
Speaker 2 (20:00):
I have five right now?
Speaker 1 (20:01):
You do five? I want? Does it take to make one? Oh?
Speaker 2 (20:05):
It takes a long time. It takes almost a year
from the beginning to the end. And because they're not cast.
These birds aren't cast. They're made from sheet metal. So
it's it's they are hammered all hammerd Wow.
Speaker 1 (20:19):
And then how do you get it so smooth?
Speaker 2 (20:21):
It's grinding, it is polishing, sick, it's sanding. Its first grinding,
then sanding, then polishing.
Speaker 1 (20:28):
How sick a gauge is? This steal?
Speaker 2 (20:31):
It's great. No one has ever asked me that, Martha, Well,
great question. I think about that.
Speaker 1 (20:37):
I'm very practical so I want to know seals hard
to bend. I get right, I can't bend steal I
can I can bend?
Speaker 2 (20:43):
I can four get around four millimeters? Or what is
that eight gauge?
Speaker 1 (20:49):
A niney? Yeah?
Speaker 2 (20:50):
Eight nine?
Speaker 1 (20:51):
Oh yeah, So it does.
Speaker 2 (20:54):
So it's in between a quarter and a half inch.
Speaker 1 (20:57):
It'll curve, it'll curve.
Speaker 2 (20:58):
And then their structure built into the oil. First there
is there's an armature. Okay, So there's a stainless steel
armature and then stainless steel it's wrapped around.
Speaker 1 (21:08):
Okay, then you can wild as it.
Speaker 2 (21:10):
Yes, everything is steel welded. It's a tig tig welding.
Speaker 1 (21:14):
Okay.
Speaker 2 (21:15):
And is that meg?
Speaker 1 (21:16):
Is it also riveted? There are no rivets. There are
no rivets. No, So it's wilded. Those are the seams,
but I don't see the seams.
Speaker 2 (21:26):
You don't see the seams because they're ground. That's the
beauty of metal is that when you weld, it's completely
They merge together. They merge together, and you just if
you have a good weld that merges together, and then
you just say, and how.
Speaker 1 (21:40):
Tall is the tallest bird that you've made?
Speaker 2 (21:42):
Seven and a half feet? But with the stand twelve
feet twelve feet.
Speaker 1 (21:47):
This is a bird. It's sort of a cross between
a sparrow, a rob and a blue bird. I mean
then they have the most the sweetest face and the
prettiest beaks and the eyes. I love the eye. Before
you started sculpting, I remember when you were working so well,
it's such long hours on in caustic painting. Describe what
(22:08):
in caustic painting requires.
Speaker 2 (22:11):
In caustic painting is well, it's an ancient technique and
the formula hasn't changed really since the Faiune portraits that
were painted on the tombs and the Greeks taught it
to the Egyptians. And you can see them over at
the mat. They are these panel paintings that are having
caustic and they're on top of the tombs and on mummies.
(22:33):
On top of the mummies. It burns, it's burning in.
That's the last part. So it is you melt the
bees wax, you add damar, you can pour it, you
can paint it. Where does the color come from the
color comes from? Either pigment. You can use oil paint
you can add it to and stir it in, or
you can use pigments. I do both. I do both,
(22:54):
and then you can play with translucency. So if you
make it really dense, it's opaque, and if you put
less pigment in, it becomes translucent, which is really beautiful too.
Speaker 1 (23:05):
And Dan, you also did another very fascinating project, the
Hands project, where people who use whose work was interesting
to you, you made casts of hands.
Speaker 2 (23:19):
Yes, it began that I cast my own hands, and
somehow when I I saw them, they there was something
about seeing my hands outside my body that made me
feel like I need to be in my life and
not so critical, like these are my hands, these hands
make things, these hands are me. I need to like
(23:42):
my I need to love myself more. And I loved
it so much I wanted to cast all my friend's hands,
so I did. I casted your hands, did two casts,
and I was also doing couples, and then I did
their hands apart, and that was also interesting. The observations
that I made on looking at the hands that people
(24:05):
do poses, their poses are so unique and so specifically
who they are. And I'm going to use you as
an example right now, because I did two And when
you came into my studio, you said you looked at
all there were I don't know, maybe there were fifty
pairs of hands there and you were looking around and
you looked at one and you said, oh, that's a benediction.
(24:26):
I'm going to do a benediction. It was like in
the prayer prayer and there are some people that do that. Oh,
that that's their pose. So you went and put your
hands in, and you went in into the mold. And
so this is an alginet. It's the stuff that you
that they use to make dentist mold for your teeth.
(24:46):
So you put your hands into the algein and it
only takes a few minutes. And then I did two,
and when I excavated them, I saw one was sort
of a prayer, but it kind of not quite. And
then the second one it just was not a prayer.
It had turned to the to the I love the
(25:06):
hands so much at an angle that they look like
a Greek goddess. They were very but like the god.
But then your hands are also hands that work, Your
hands work, and so they were like, there.
Speaker 1 (25:18):
Are veins and there are knuckles.
Speaker 2 (25:21):
Well, no, it's also that you you also keep the house.
And I was thinking years later, you wrote that book
on the Encyclopedia of Housekeeping, and you are like like hero,
the goddess of the home and heart and of housekeeping
and these I and I love this this one. It's
just it's just so you.
Speaker 1 (25:40):
Thank you.
Speaker 2 (25:41):
That second one you were completely just expressing yourself in
the mold.
Speaker 1 (25:54):
And your other artwork on those leaves that you've done
and those.
Speaker 2 (25:58):
Yeah, I have a few other I don't think you've
ever seen. I did in Key West. I have a
big kinetic.
Speaker 1 (26:03):
Tree, branches of beautiful branches that you cast. Oh, I
love all of that. And where's your studio now.
Speaker 2 (26:12):
It's on West twenty seventh Street.
Speaker 1 (26:14):
So near home, and so have you been there recently?
Speaker 2 (26:19):
I have, I have. I've been working on a lot
of balance.
Speaker 1 (26:22):
Pieces, mobiles they're mobiles, oh really, and stables, and I
did a kinetic forest that I really like.
Speaker 2 (26:33):
So I'm just working on those. And then I have
a project that I'm working on in Seattle. I'm working
with another artist, Sarah Thompson Moore. It's commissioned by the
City of Seattle, and it's one of the it is
the last farm in Seattle. So we're doing kind of seeds.
We're doing at big seeds of course, enlarging seeds and
(26:57):
sprouts and who's find vision it's called it's called the
Mara Desmonde Park and it used to be the family
used to feed all of seattle in the four days.
Speaker 1 (27:10):
Oh wow.
Speaker 2 (27:10):
And this is just the last part of it. And
it's about I would say, I think it's like twelve
acres the park.
Speaker 1 (27:18):
So seeds and branches and seeds and sprouts and sprouts,
seeds that are in the ground and taking them out.
Oh great. So would your art be different if you
didn't travel so much?
Speaker 2 (27:31):
Probably?
Speaker 1 (27:32):
Are you still going to South America to Buenos Aires?
Speaker 2 (27:35):
We still are. We still have a place there.
Speaker 1 (27:38):
Yeah. And where do you want to go next?
Speaker 2 (27:41):
I would really like to go. I've never been to Pakistan,
and I'd like to go to the north. And actually
I get a lot of my information on where to
travel from some of the taxicab drivers. Oh so, actually
I met. I had a taxicab driver and he gave
me the name of his brother in law or uncle.
Speaker 1 (27:58):
Yeah, yeah, will give me a tour. Have you been
toed northern India?
Speaker 2 (28:03):
I had just a kim Yeah yeah.
Speaker 1 (28:06):
And have you oh yeah, I hikes up there?
Speaker 2 (28:09):
Oh good, beautiful. It's India amazing.
Speaker 1 (28:12):
Oh, it's incredible. It's incredible and so so remote. That's
what's interesting about it.
Speaker 2 (28:19):
Surprising that it's so remote.
Speaker 1 (28:21):
It's so well traveled, that's right, and you think, oh,
it's going to be so crowded. There's somebody the most
populous country in the world and you don't see anybody
for days when you're hyping.
Speaker 2 (28:30):
And also all the women still wear sorry where the
salwar kurta and the men too. Yeah, it's very culturally intact.
Speaker 1 (28:40):
You know, it's an incredible place. Well, oh, you know
when you're going to Pakistan. That sounds like a good trip,
doesn't it. Oh? Yes, So I want to talk a
little bit more about the Chelsea Hotel because it is
an historic landmark. It has been spiffed up tremendously since
I first went there. When I first I had not
(29:00):
been there before I met you guys. And I did
know Susan Spungen's sister, who was who was married? Was
she married? Just said vicious?
Speaker 2 (29:12):
She was no?
Speaker 1 (29:13):
Nancy?
Speaker 2 (29:14):
Oh Nancy?
Speaker 1 (29:15):
Wait?
Speaker 2 (29:16):
Yes, were they married?
Speaker 1 (29:18):
I don't know, but they both.
Speaker 2 (29:21):
Died right, but yes, he shot her in then own south.
Speaker 1 (29:25):
And Susan Spungen was my food editor at the magazine,
and that was her sister, and she was she was
hesitant to talk about it, But when she finally opened
up about it, you learned a little bit about all
that history and what a crazy place you lived in.
Speaker 2 (29:39):
It is. There's been a lot of suicides, a lot
of well, it's been around for a while. It's built
in the eighteen eighties.
Speaker 1 (29:47):
Yeah, it's an old hotel and now you have the
best restaurants.
Speaker 2 (29:52):
I know, it used to be like it's gone from
like motel to hotel.
Speaker 1 (29:56):
Yes, it's very fancy, Yeah, very Sunday entertainment. Who manages
your restaurants in that building? Just started to manage the
local restaurant here, the Bedford Post. So I get to
hear about stuff that's going on at a Chelsea hotel
from the staff at the Bedford Posts. Little world, Little world,
isn't it?
Speaker 2 (30:16):
Yeah?
Speaker 1 (30:17):
So funny. So when you and Michael moved in, who
were your neighbors? I remember besides Sid Vicious and Nancy.
Speaker 2 (30:26):
Who were our neighbors, Well, Herbert Hunky was one of
our neighbors. Oh gosh, he's one of the beat poets.
There was Philip taff was living there. I don't think
he's not come back since the renovation. Patty Smith was visiting,
would sometimes stay there. Ethan was living there. What am
I saying?
Speaker 1 (30:46):
My friends he.
Speaker 2 (30:48):
Lived upstairs and Maya and Nicky are really are really
good friends. They would run around the halls together, and
he was just he's such a magical person, Ethan.
Speaker 1 (30:58):
He's doing great work. Now he's doing mature work. It's
really interesting. So you continue to live in this Chelsea hotel.
Your husband's continues to write. Is he practicing law anymore?
Speaker 2 (31:11):
He practices a little bit of law. He's doing a
couple of things.
Speaker 1 (31:14):
He's always someday we'll have Michael on the podcast because
you have to hear his stories. I mean, there's great. Yeah,
he is a period pieces incredible is he knows so much?
And he clerked for the Supreme Court justice Underdressice Brannad. Yeah,
what a great job that was in a brilliant, brilliant
(31:35):
legal mind. What projects do you want to take on next?
Speaker 2 (31:41):
Oh, that is a good question. Well, I there's something
I'm besides doing the Seattle project in the hands. One
of the things I'd like to do is enlarge one
of the hands make an enlargement. There's a particular set
of hands of plumber.
Speaker 1 (31:57):
Of plumber's hands.
Speaker 2 (31:59):
Yes, blocking the first No, she's she's a woman, a woman,
that's a woman plumber. She's the first woman plumber. And
when I asked her to come with her the tool
that she uses the most, and to bring a couple
of her students, and she brought three girls with her
or one was six, there was I think the other
(32:22):
one it was a twelve year old and a seventeen
year old. But I thought of that, you know how
those those posters with the Russian posters the workers, right,
So I thought she should have that plumbing tool in
her hand, and the girls should, you know, all be
supporting her hand. And so I set them around. Judeline
is her name, Judeline Cassidy. She held the wrench, Yeah,
(32:46):
the wrench, and they were all standing around the bucket
and it was poured in, and then they all kind
of grabbed hold of her and they all went in,
and you know, the cast go in upside down, so
it was upside down, and then when I excavated it,
I just couldn't believe it. Jodelinge's hand was not at
(33:08):
the top anymore it had slid underneath and that six
year old And let me tell you about this six
year old. She came in wearing this beautiful outfit and
had this tiara on and really was like, you know,
she was just six going on on twenty five, you know,
And so her hand was at the very top, Jodeling's
(33:30):
was hidden, and all of the student's hands were all
around it, and it was just a beautiful pass. And
I've been thinking about making it, enlarging it, and I
have been talking to Governor's Island about about nice because it's.
Speaker 1 (33:45):
The different laborers who came and.
Speaker 2 (33:47):
Right, and also yes, it seems like the right fit
for it, that.
Speaker 1 (33:50):
Would be nice. So public art is such a fascinating
subject too. What is now being shown as public art?
Speaker 2 (34:00):
Right? And that is it's something that you always think about,
like or I always think about as a public artist.
The first lesson I learned about public art is it
relevant to where it's being placed. And the other thing
is will it be relevant in one hundred years or
two hundred years. And there are some sculptures that I
(34:23):
love them so much that are in the city that
I recommend anyone.
Speaker 1 (34:26):
That what are your favorites. So this is interesting.
Speaker 2 (34:29):
It's like, there are three that I really love, there's more.
There's more than three. Well, there's four that I really love.
One of them is the Statue of Liberty. I just
I just can't get over the Statue of libt.
Speaker 1 (34:40):
Did you see the piece of Sunday the historical Oh,
they gave a very on CBS Sunday Morning. They did
a very beautiful kind of retrospective about the Statue of Liberty.
Speaker 2 (34:51):
And it was very charging going.
Speaker 1 (34:53):
To watch that because it wasn't it wasn't to be
a symbol of America. And when it was built, was
it it was a gift of the French to America?
Speaker 2 (35:02):
I ever told it.
Speaker 1 (35:03):
Yes, yeah, so watch that piece. So the Statue of Liberty, the.
Speaker 2 (35:08):
Statue of Liberty the Bethesda Fountain, Oh of course. And
that's that was a controversial piece in the day. Well,
she was the first female sculptor to have something in
Central part Emma Stebbins, Oh, of course. And her brother
(35:28):
was the commissioner. And so when it came out they said,
you know that it was uh yeah, yeah exactly. And
and and then also she lived an openly gay life,
and so they started to go after the esthetic on it.
The criticism was that it was masculine, and I mean, yes,
(35:52):
she would never have had the piece if she hadn't
known her brother. I mean, no women had had sculptures
and parts at that time. But it's a beautiful film
it is, and so it passes. That's when I think
she was highly criticized. People didn't like the sculpture, and
then what that sculpture represents. It's such a thoughtful piece.
(36:13):
So the context of it was that it was the
first time New York City had piped in water. That
was in the eighteen hundreds, and there are countries that
still don't have piped in right, So it's to bless
the water.
Speaker 1 (36:26):
So that those are two where the other two.
Speaker 2 (36:29):
Oh three, the Alice in Wonderland, Oh my gosh, the
Alice in Wonderland. That is a fantastic sculpture, and you
cannot you know. Sometimes I go and I'll be looking
to see if anybody looks at my bird or doesn't
look any around me sitting hanging back watching and I
sometimes also I always go to visit. If I'm in
Central Park, I visit that sculpture. There are always children
(36:53):
on top of that skull.
Speaker 1 (36:53):
Always they're allowed to climb all over it, which is
so nice, right.
Speaker 2 (36:58):
And so Alice is bigger than life, but not so
much bigger than life, but big enough. It's just perfect.
And then every angle you turn around and it's in
a wooded area, so it references the mushrooms, everything that's
in the forest, that's in the park. It's perfect. And
then the eleanor rose about I really like that. Did
you ever see that one?
Speaker 1 (37:18):
There?
Speaker 2 (37:19):
It's on the upper west side and she's leaning against
it's newer and she's leaning against a rack. It's on
the Riverside Park, Okay area, and I think it's like.
Speaker 1 (37:31):
I drive by it. I drive by it every time
I go to New York. I will make sure I
look at it.
Speaker 2 (37:35):
Very casual, she's leaning against a rack. She's got like
a long trench coat on, and it's very casual and
it's just relatable.
Speaker 1 (37:44):
Oh see, this is very important for people to open
one's eyes. Everybody should open one's eyes and really study
what is around us. And these sculptures which become familiar,
you sort of forget how important they actually are.
Speaker 2 (37:59):
And also to visit, visit the parks and visit and
look at nature and of course the birds. So nice,
What a nice what a nice little ending to our talk.
Speaker 1 (38:11):
And I hate, I hate to stop talking because you
are so much fun to talk to. But and thank
you so much for coming all the way to Bedford today.
You can see Shila's work on her website Shila Berger
all one word dot com and it's b E R
G e R. You can also see a lovely documentary
about her made by our mutual friend Gail Towie, and
(38:35):
you can follow Sheila on Instagram at Wanderer fifty on
Instagram to see her latest projects. So that it's fantastic, Mark,
thank you, thank.
Speaker 2 (38:47):
You so much. I always think when I think of
the people that I admire the most, it's it's that
they are always approaching their life as a journey. And
I always think of you that way. Thank you that
your life is such a journey and a grand journey.
Speaker 1 (39:05):
Thank you, though well, yours is a real journey. Thank you,