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October 11, 2024 • 49 mins

On this episode of The Middle we'll be asking you about one of the top issues that will factor into the election this November: immigration. We're joined by Yuma, Arizona Mayor Doug Nicholls and journalist Ray Suarez. The Middle's house DJ Tolliver joins as well, plus callers from around the country. #immigration #deportation #border #Mexico #Harris #Trump #election

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Speaker 1 (00:00):
The Middle is supported by Journalism Funding Partners, a nonprofit
organization striving to increase the sustainability of local journalism by
building connections between donors.

Speaker 2 (00:09):
And news organizations.

Speaker 1 (00:10):
More information on how you can support the Middle at
Listen tooth Middle dot com.

Speaker 2 (00:19):
Welcome to the Middle.

Speaker 1 (00:20):
I'm Jeremy Hobson along with our house DJ Tolliver and
Tolliver we have new listeners this week.

Speaker 3 (00:24):
Yeah, in two different parts of the country. We welcome
the listeners of Texas Public Radio in and around San Antonio,
and also folks listening and ka ZU in Monterey, Selinas
and Santa Cruz, California.

Speaker 2 (00:38):
Santa Cruz, California and two border states there.

Speaker 1 (00:40):
So maybe they'll want to participate in our conversation this
hour about immigration and what's at stake in this election.
Of course, as we do this show, our thoughts are
with everybody in Florida who's dealing with Hurricane Milton. A
special thank you to our colleagues at WUSF in Tampa
and WGCU and Fort Myers and other public radio stations
keeping everyone informed under really diff circumstances. So this hour

(01:02):
we want to hear from you about immigration. What do
you want the next president to do about it. Both
former President Trump and Vice President Harris have called for
tougher border security, but Trump wants to deport the millions
of Americans who are undocumented in this country, while Harris
has talked about an earned pathway to citizenship.

Speaker 2 (01:20):
By the way, a recent.

Speaker 1 (01:20):
Gallup poll finds a majority of Americans now favor less
immigration to the United States.

Speaker 2 (01:27):
So where does that leave you?

Speaker 1 (01:28):
What do you want the next president to do about
immigration and deportation.

Speaker 2 (01:32):
We'll get to your.

Speaker 1 (01:33):
Calls in a minute at eight four four four middle.
That's eight four four four six four three three five three.
But first, last week, we asked you what the top
issue for you is in this election, and here are
some of the calls that came in after the show.

Speaker 4 (01:46):
Hi there, my name is Greg Reloo from Denver, Colorado.

Speaker 5 (01:49):
Hey, I am Michal Escaio or Mick and I'm in Chicago, Illinois.

Speaker 6 (01:55):
My name is Larry Michael. I'm calling from Massachusetts.

Speaker 7 (01:59):
Hi.

Speaker 5 (02:00):
My name is Marianna Eddie. I'm in Murphy's Borough, Tennessee,
outside of Nashville. I'm Colin as an Independent. To me,
the two most important issues right now are abortion, and
gun control.

Speaker 4 (02:13):
Number one issue for me in this election is definitely
the economy and affordable housing. I have had to relocate
because housing and deppor has just become so ridiculously high.

Speaker 5 (02:25):
My comment is about the Middle East, SASA and now Lebanon,
and we cannot twin a blind eye to what is
going on in the Middle East. This is a really
big issue for me in this election.

Speaker 6 (02:36):
The issue I'm concerned about is immigration. I do not
think illegal immigration should be allowed.

Speaker 1 (02:46):
What a perfect segue to our show this hour, Tolliver,
thanks to everybody who called in. By the way, you
can hear that entire episode on our podcast in partnership
with iHeart Podcasts, on the iHeart app or wherever you
listen to podcasts. So now to our topic this hour,
what do you want the next president to do about
immigration and deportation?

Speaker 2 (03:02):
Tolliver the number again, please.

Speaker 3 (03:04):
It's eight four four four Middle that's eight four four
four six four three three five three or write to
us that listen to the Middle dot.

Speaker 2 (03:11):
Com and let's meet our panel.

Speaker 1 (03:12):
Doug Nichols is the mayor of Yuma, Arizona, situated very
close to the border.

Speaker 2 (03:17):
Mayor Nichols welcome to the middle.

Speaker 8 (03:20):
Thank you very much for having me on. I mean
and enjoy looking forward to the conversation.

Speaker 2 (03:23):
It's great to have you.

Speaker 1 (03:24):
And Ray Suarez is with us as well, veteran public
media journalist and author. His new book on immigration is
called We Are Home, Becoming American in the twenty first Century.

Speaker 2 (03:33):
Ray. Great to have you back as well.

Speaker 9 (03:35):
It's good to be with Jeremy.

Speaker 2 (03:37):
And before we get to the phones, let me just
ask each of you a couple of things.

Speaker 1 (03:40):
Mayor Nichols. Back in December, there was a record number
of border encounters in the country, about two hundred and
fifty thousand, and then in August that number had fallen
to about fifty eight thousand, which is a seventy seven
percent decline. Why do you think that happened and how
is it playing out where you are in Yuma.

Speaker 8 (04:01):
Well, I think there's a lot of factors that build
into that. I know the President had issued an executive
order and I think that did have an impact on
the reduction of the numbers some But I think we
always need to remember that this wave of illegal immigration is.

Speaker 10 (04:17):
A business model for the cartel, and.

Speaker 8 (04:20):
So they're always going to EBB and flow bit just
like any business based upon risk and cost and what's
going on. And there's been a lot of internal struggles
within the cartels recently, a lot of infighting and I
think that's frankly hampering their business model, which has helped
reduce the numbers. Now in perspective, per seventy seven percent

(04:43):
reduction is big, but compared to.

Speaker 10 (04:46):
Where we are under normal times, it's still significantly high
along the.

Speaker 2 (04:51):
Border race wise, What do you think about that?

Speaker 1 (04:55):
And one of the things that President Biden did in
his executive order is he made it much more difficult
for people to seek asylum in the United States, and
he made it even more difficult last month. Is that
progress as or is it a band aid solution or
what do you think?

Speaker 9 (05:11):
I do think it's a band aid, but it is
part of why the flow has been reduced. That and
increased cooperation with the government in Mexico City. Secretary of
State Blincoln Secretary of Homeland Security Majorcas both went down
and saw Andres Manuel Lopez Obrador and basically asked for

(05:36):
more significant, more consistent help with slowing the number of
people who were heading to the border, and he got it.
That along with the heightened enforcement is pushing down the numbers.

Speaker 1 (05:54):
So that's the government of Mexico obviously having an impact.
Mayor Nichols, you bring up the cartel. If these two
entities have such power, how does does the US president
have that much power over reducing the flow of illegal
immigration If it's the cartel that has so much control here.

Speaker 10 (06:13):
Well, to me, that's the battle, right, that's the struggle.

Speaker 8 (06:17):
You know, the United States does participate quite heavily economically
with Mexico, and President Trump did a similar thing that
the Secretary just did here this year and said, hey,
you know, we really like supporting Mexico, we really like
having you as a trading partner, but we need to
be we need to have you as a partner for everything,
including this. And so I think it's again incremental. We

(06:40):
have different elements and different forces pulling on how things
are impacted.

Speaker 10 (06:45):
But I definitely believe the.

Speaker 8 (06:47):
Administration making a statement like that does have an impact
on Mexico. Now, Mexico at this point, you know, they're
in transition for their presidential administration and all that.

Speaker 10 (06:57):
So we'll see where we go here in the future.

Speaker 8 (07:00):
But it's definitely has to be part of the conversation
as we deal with this as a country.

Speaker 2 (07:05):
I want to ask one more thing, Ray Sooairez.

Speaker 1 (07:08):
People might not want to talk about this, but how
much of our economy relies on people who are in
the country.

Speaker 9 (07:14):
Illegally more than you'd like to hear as an answer,
And in businesses of all kinds, whether it's pounding roof
shingles in a new subdivision outside Atlanta, bussing tables in Chicago,
picking crops in the Imperial Valley in California, doing the
electric wiring in a subdivision in Texas, it's across the economy,

(07:41):
and unlike in earlier decades, it's across the country. The
people who are now here illegally, the new people who
are coming here are now part of the story of
the economy in all kinds of places that they weren't before.
A lot of the country never experienced in Ellis Island
moment or an Ellis Island era. But now immigration is

(08:05):
a more broadly felt part of the American economy, a
more broadly experienced part of the American economy.

Speaker 1 (08:13):
A lot of calls coming in, So let's get to
the phones. Ub is in Aurora, Colorado. You be welcome
to the middle What do you want the next president
to do about immigration?

Speaker 5 (08:24):
Hi, Jeremy.

Speaker 11 (08:25):
I have three things that I want the president to do.
I want them to encourage bipartisan cooperation in Congress because
we need to pass laws on the federal level about this.
I want them to help businesses understand how much we
need foreign workers here in the United States. And I
want doctor recipients to get a pathway to citizen citizenship

(08:47):
US citizenships because they were brought to the US outside
of their control. They've been paying their taxes, They're contributing
members to our society. They deserve that.

Speaker 1 (08:56):
And do you have a stake in this yourself? Are
you an immigrant? Are you were you born in the
United States.

Speaker 11 (09:04):
I do have a stake in this. I'm from Madagascar.
I grew up in Cameroon, and I came to the
US for college and began working here. So I went
from visa to visa to become a Green card holder.
Now this is a very important topic to me, so
much so that I began working in immigration law as
a paralegal. And my family and my partner can attest

(09:28):
to how much effort we've put into being here. And
also that we want to park our achievements in the
United States, not just doom and gloomy and trauma with immigrants.
We are some high achieving people. We're the new Americans,
and so I think people should remember that.

Speaker 1 (09:47):
You'd be thank you very much for that call, Mayor Nichols.
Let me go to you on the first part of
what she said, which is she wants five partisan action
in Congress. There was a bill that was out there.
President Trump didn't want it passed, and it didn't get
past But what do you think about that?

Speaker 10 (10:02):
Yeah, definitely.

Speaker 8 (10:03):
I mean, the the endgame here has to be a
congressional action. Unfortunately, that's going to be more than one session.
It's going to be more than one bill. That bill, too,
was a bit of a band aid in a lot
of ways, so the President was able to accomplish almost.

Speaker 10 (10:18):
The exact same thing through an executive order. But moving forward,
the only way we get.

Speaker 8 (10:22):
Immigration discussion as well as an effective change to our
laws is through by partisanship. And it'll take a very
strong leader not just in the White House, but in
the in the House and in the Senate to really
bring that discussion to a fruitful discussion and get away
from the headlines and the and the talking points and

(10:43):
get down to brass tax on how we can have
an immigration set of laws that take us into the
future and not hold us in the past.

Speaker 1 (10:53):
A reminder that you can reach us at eight four
four four Middle or at our website Listen to the
Middle dot com tolliver. This issue of immigration is playing
out all over the country, not just in the presidential race,
but also in state and local races as well.

Speaker 3 (11:08):
Yeah, that's right. Here are just a few examples from
Senate campaign commercials in Nevada, Texas and Florida.

Speaker 5 (11:14):
Biden and Kamala have failed Nevada families, creating sky high inflation.

Speaker 12 (11:19):
And opening our border to illegal immigrants.

Speaker 2 (11:22):
Jackie Rosen, Robert Stamp the Biden Harris.

Speaker 9 (11:24):
Agenda when it comes to the border.

Speaker 2 (11:25):
Ted Cruise's all hat and no cattle calling, allret It's tough.

Speaker 13 (11:30):
He's standing up to extremist in both parties, both parties,
when there was actually a good plan backed.

Speaker 2 (11:37):
By sheriff and border officers.

Speaker 9 (11:39):
Republicans and Democrats.

Speaker 14 (11:42):
Ted Kruz said, we do.

Speaker 4 (11:43):
I'm Scott and I approve this message.

Speaker 2 (11:45):
Congresswoman Debbie mukerself Powell has a silly socialist plan for
the border. She wants to give illegal immigrants a tax break. Ridiculous.

Speaker 1 (11:56):
By the way, for those of you in swing states,
you only have like a couple more weeks of that
and then all those ads are going to go away.

Speaker 3 (12:02):
Oh my god, And I said Nevada, how bears.

Speaker 1 (12:04):
Oh, and we're on across the state of Nevada. So
you can write your emails directly to Tolliver.

Speaker 3 (12:10):
If you're no longer welcome.

Speaker 2 (12:12):
Yeah, we'll be right back with more of your calls
on the Middle. This is the Middle.

Speaker 1 (12:18):
I'm Jeremy Hobson. If you're just tuning, in the Middle
is a national call in show. We're focused on elevating
voices from the middle geographically, politically, and philosophically, or maybe
you just want to meet in the middle. This hour,
we're asking you what do you want the next president
to do about immigration and deportation? Tolliver, what is the
number to call in?

Speaker 3 (12:35):
It's eight four four four Middle. That's eight four four
four sixty four three three five three. You can also
write to us a Listen to the Middle dot com
or on social media.

Speaker 1 (12:44):
I'm joined by Yuma Arizona Mayor Doug Nichols and Ray Suarez,
longtime public media journalist and author. And let's get right
back to the phone lines because they are full randal
is in San Antonio, Texas. Randall, welcome to the middle
Go ahead.

Speaker 14 (12:58):
Good evening, Thank you.

Speaker 15 (12:59):
I am just us to San Antonio and home construction
is exploding out here. This is a problem that goes
back to the Eisenhower administration. Reagan signed the Immigration Reform
and Control Act in nineteen eighty six. President Clinton established
the US Commission on Immigration Reform in nineteen ninety four.
Tap one of our greatest Texans, former Congressman Barbara Jordan,

(13:23):
to head that commission. Top quiz, who can remember what
former President George W. Bush was doing the first week
of September in two thousand and one.

Speaker 14 (13:32):
Think about that. We need to do something.

Speaker 15 (13:35):
We have never done before. We need to put the
heat on corporations, businesses, and industries that knowingly, flagrantly, repeatedly
higher undocumented workers. We need to put an end to
the rampant abuse of the hanging courts in the air
independent contractor scheme. It's devolved to the level of organized

(13:55):
crime in the construction industry. We need to raid businesses,
arrest the owners and managers that repeatedly knowingly hire undocumented workers,
charge them with tax evasion and financial treason. And if
they are convicted, what's the penalty for treason the end of.

Speaker 2 (14:14):
The Okay, okay, I think we've got we've got your
gooing there. Let me take it.

Speaker 3 (14:18):
Let me take it to one of our brand new
listeners outside of.

Speaker 2 (14:21):
Yeah, I know, thank you, Randall. Welcome San Antonio listener.
Race Warez.

Speaker 1 (14:25):
Though, what about this idea of going after the companies
that hire people who are in the country without documentation?

Speaker 9 (14:33):
Well, as your caller noted, Ronald Reagan signed the Immigration
Reform and Control Act of nineteen eighty six, and one
of the provisions of that law was to redirect enforcement
to employers, because it was felt by the Republicans and
Democrats who signed on to that law that one of
the things that continued to spur illegal migration to the

(14:57):
United States was easy in deployment. And the idea was
if you crack down on the employers, there won't be
a great big neon blinking help wanted sign over the
United States at the border. Except in practice, when enforcement
went to employers. Employers called their congressmen and said, hey,

(15:20):
you got to let up on me. This is too
much in all kinds of industries, in meatpacking, in the
chicken slaughter houses in Arkansas, all over the country. And yeah,
Congress did let up on the enforcement, and that part
of the Immigration Reform and Control Act never lived up
to its possibilities, and the fact that we are labor

(15:42):
hungry in this country has continued to contribute to levels
of illegal immigration.

Speaker 1 (15:49):
Let's go to uday. Who's in Princeton, New Jersey. Ou day,
Welcome to the middle.

Speaker 14 (15:53):
Go ahead, Oh hi, can you hear me?

Speaker 2 (15:58):
I can hear you? Yeah, go ahead, Yes.

Speaker 16 (16:02):
So the question was that what should we do about
our immigration policy, and particularly about deportation. I myself am
an immigrant. I came here, oh maybe forty years ago
through the legal immigration system.

Speaker 12 (16:23):
But I feel that border security is a prerequisite to
any immigration policy whatsoever. A country is defined by its borders.
If there is no border, you don't know where the

(16:44):
country begins or ends. If you want to have any
immigration policy, you must first be able to enforce it,
and you can only do so by having a secure
border and some sort of a system you know, whether
it is a Canadian merit based system or some compassionate

(17:07):
system or a combination. If it's not enforceable, it's nearly
pointless to have a discussion about what kind of system
to have. Unfortunately, the whole immigration issue has become politicized
so that the only thing that we hear from lawmakers

(17:28):
are suggestions that are politically experient. But the underlying problem remains,
you know, by both parties have to get together to
do something to secure the border to the extent possible
and then have a combination system where our economic needs

(17:50):
are met and our human values are maintained.

Speaker 2 (17:54):
Let me take that to the Mayor Nichols.

Speaker 1 (17:57):
Interesting perspective there from because we always hear about this
people that went through the process the legal way, but
want a secure border, don't want people coming in without
going through the proper process.

Speaker 10 (18:11):
Yeah, this is a new days right right on Mark.

Speaker 8 (18:14):
You know here living on the border, it creates a
very unsettling environment when essentially you can just walk across
across the river. And so when you get this discussion happening,
people are focusing on that. So just from a discussion standpoint,
that's one hundred percent true in my mind that you
have to have ability to control it. Otherwise you're talking

(18:37):
about something you can't you don't have the ability to
actually affect. But beyond that, I think the border represents
a lot more than even just immigration. It represents the
ability to control what comes into the country and what
leaves the country. For instance, veetanol, the crisis we're at
right now. It is crazy, and it's coming through the border,

(18:58):
and it's not coming through the poor. It's coming through
the border, and that's because it's not secure movement of traffic,
of drugs and money. It crossed both ways in the border,
same thing. All that is part of the discussion of
how you have a secure nation, So then you can
talk about how do we make sure we have the
right workforce, how we're protecting the right situations on human rights,

(19:24):
and how we be that good global partner to those
that are truly in need.

Speaker 1 (19:30):
Christina is in Birmingham, Alabama. Christina, what do you think
the next president should do on immigration?

Speaker 17 (19:38):
Hi, thank you for having me. I'm myself. I'm a
naturalized citizen. I'm proud to be a youth citizen for
over five years now. My process took sixteen years. I
was completely documented the whole time. But to me, I
would also like my partisan corporation. I also would like
the fousehoods to stop about the immigration process. It seems

(20:02):
like we have to become the beyond of the politicians,
and it's very terrifying to see how people are attacking
folks about even eating their pets and their animals and
just spreading falsehoods. I would like to see a through
change in immigration too, because the process is very expensive
and very longsome and cumbersome. It should not take this

(20:25):
long for someone that is trying to remain undocument documented
to be in this process. It should be easier so
that there's some sort of control and that the people
that are wanting to do things the right way can
and are.

Speaker 1 (20:37):
Able to Christina, thank you and congratulations on becoming a
citizen of the United States.

Speaker 2 (20:42):
I really appreciate your call.

Speaker 1 (20:44):
Ray Suarez a couple of things there, but she actually
brings up something that we heard from the previous caller,
which is we've got to take the politics out of this,
stop with the falsehoods. Is that possible with an issue
like immigration.

Speaker 9 (20:56):
Not in a closely divided country. I'm afraid I used
to be optimistic and somewhat idealistic about the ability of
Congress to hammer something out, And when people on both
sides of the aisle talked about comprehensive immigration reform, I
would think, yeah, overall, that would be better for the country.

(21:18):
But when the country is as closely divided a sixty
to forty country could work it out. You lure a
couple of people over from the other side, you make
bipartisan legislation, you make some compromises. A fifty to fifty
country is really hard to do something as big as
heavy a lift as comprehensive immigration reform. To me, it

(21:42):
looks like they should break it into pieces, because what
to do about twelve million people who are here already
and have been here an average of ten years is
totally different than the question of what to do about
someone who presented themselves at the border this morning with
a passport and says, if I go home, they're gonna

(22:03):
kill me. Why do we have this idea that we
have to have this enormous bill that takes care of
both of their problems when it's so hard even to
get the small things done right now, Congress in the
shape that it's in right now, can hardly name post
offices they're gonna they're gonna do comprehensive immigration reform. Really,
I don't think so.

Speaker 2 (22:25):
Mayor Nichols, you agree with that.

Speaker 8 (22:27):
Yeah, it's it's I've never heard of put that way before.
Nice job, right, but you know it's it's true. H
two A visas is one of the visas that the
agriculture community in Yuma, which I'll just put this out there.
We feed the United States and Canada. Ninety percent of
the leafy greens you consume during the winter. Over fifty

(22:49):
percent of that workforce is foreign labor. That workforce is
let's say the farmers desire that workforce to be completely
legal because it's it's more reliable and you know you
can year after year you have the same skilled labor
coming back.

Speaker 10 (23:07):
There's some dramatic reforms that need to be made in
H two A.

Speaker 8 (23:10):
And you talk about labor being something everybody understands we
need to fix. There are no fruitful discussions currently happening
on that, and they just can't seem to get together
on that.

Speaker 10 (23:21):
As soon as you bring that up, then someone else
is bringing up.

Speaker 8 (23:23):
Something and and you get into the comprehensive reform, build discussion,
which then sends everybody.

Speaker 10 (23:32):
Their own corner and nothing happens.

Speaker 8 (23:34):
But if you want to start addressing labor concerns and
how to bring people into the country legally to address
the dramatic labor needs, that to me is the starting
point because we get that going after obviously the borders secure,
but we get labor to start, discussion starts happening, and
then you can start taking out some of the excuses

(23:55):
big industry has, as well as making sure when people
come they do have a way to earn, earn a
living and settle down correctly.

Speaker 2 (24:07):
Tolliver, I know some comments are coming in online.

Speaker 3 (24:10):
Yeah, I'm gonna start with the super flattering one.

Speaker 18 (24:12):
Okay.

Speaker 3 (24:12):
Eric in Minnesota says, I love this show. The middle
is the most important place to be. I do want
to say that the middle ground between the truth and
a lie is not in okay place to make policy,
specifically about immigration. I think we need to find a
way to agree on the truth about the benefits of
legal immigration and stop the fear mongering. Laura in gree League,
Colorado says, I would like the next president to humanely

(24:35):
and respectfully treat all immigrants equitably. Push the legislation that
Biden supported and get that bill signed. I would also
like them to deal with the situation so it stops
being a talking point, but it needs to be humane.
M Yeah, thing, we heard, great.

Speaker 1 (24:48):
And you can reach out at listen to the middle
dot com. But let's go to the phones right now.
John is in ann Arbor, Michigan. John, what do you
think the next president should do about immigration?

Speaker 14 (24:59):
Good evening, and thank you for taking my call. I mean,
I'm going to go very old school here. I'm going
to go back to like Ellis Island whatnot. And my
family is an immigrant family from Poland after World War Two,
from concentration camp, survivors Blitzker attacks. I mean we came here.
We an X on the my family grandmother put an
X down waiting and quarantine, got her shot. Then we

(25:22):
became hard working citizens. I mean what we're dealing with now. Yeah,
we've got a mass wave, but we have a mass
wave of needed labor throughout our country. Yeah. You, like
we said earlier, by one of the points, we've got
ten years of legal immigrants here that are working in
our system. You know what if we would have just
made them systems citizens when they came here, you know,

(25:45):
tax paying.

Speaker 2 (25:46):
Is that what you think, is that what you think
should happen.

Speaker 14 (25:52):
They come across the board, they signed their name, go
to quarantine waiting period, get their shots if they have
something on them when they get here, and then they're released.
Like hundreds of hundreds of generations of families that are
here in the United States, it's in an X in
a book, and now they're sitizen.

Speaker 2 (26:09):
John.

Speaker 1 (26:09):
Thank you for that interesting perspective, Rayceoirez. Probably not a
lot of people, or so many people might disagree with
that and think that if you were to allow that
to happen, it would depress wages hugely across the country
if you had so many people easily able to come
in and get their documentation right away.

Speaker 13 (26:27):
You know, the.

Speaker 9 (26:27):
United States is just one country among many that is
experiencing a worldwide crisis of migration. And instead of making
it all about us, why don't we ask ourselves whether
we really thought one of the biggest, richest, most powerful,

(26:48):
and influential countries on the planet was just going to
whistle calmly by while Germany and Greece and Turkey and
Jordan and Lebanon and Kenya and Congo. Countries all over
the world are home to millions of people who are

(27:10):
on the move. Twenty five percent of the population of
Venezuela has left the country. Pull out a map. Venezuela
is a big country. Eleven million people out of forty
four million have left, fifteen percent of the entire population
of Cuba, and because of the visa free access to

(27:30):
Central America from Cuba, they buy a one way ticket,
fly from Havana to Managua and begin walking north. The
idea that we were just going to escape this while
one hundred million people are on the move was naive
and I fault both parties for not contextualizing this in

(27:51):
the broader world that's wrestling with this same problem at
the moment.

Speaker 2 (27:56):
Let's go to Dan, who's in York, Pennsylvania. Dan, what
do you want to next president to do about immigration?

Speaker 13 (28:03):
Oh, he's just made the point I was going to make.
I said, sorry, can't solve it from our side. We
can't solve this from our side. We need to deal
with the flood that is coming our way, not just
at the borders, but support the borders and deal with
the flood. Throughout the US and do our best to

(28:25):
help the countries where the people are running away. Most
people want to stay home and only leave when the
conditions are such that they can't survive.

Speaker 1 (28:36):
There, Dan a great point, and Mayor Nichols, I'll take
that to you. This is one of the things that
Kamala Harris in her role, you know, early on as
quote Borders Are, was supposed to work on. Was was
the the problem in the countries in Central America where
a lot of people are coming from.

Speaker 10 (28:54):
Yeah, and that's right. I mean earlier we were talking about,
you know, the global place that we play as far as.

Speaker 8 (29:02):
As a country. This isn't a simple solution to anything.
And if we're not going to address immigration protection in
all the countries we have great partner countries to the
perspective of, you know, we need to make sure that
we take in everyone who needs asylum when there's so

(29:23):
many other countries that people pass by, pass through, pass
over to get here, where if we worked together to
try to find provisions that really made sense to protect
those that are that are in need, that would be
I think a better holistic solution.

Speaker 1 (29:40):
Tolliver, as we heard from a caller earlier. It has
been a while since we've seen any real immigration reform
in this country.

Speaker 3 (29:47):
Yeah, you'd have to go back to nineteen eighty six,
when President Ronald Reagan passed a bipartisan immigration reform package.

Speaker 19 (29:54):
This bill, the Immigration Reform and Control Act of nineteen
eighty six, that I was signed in a few minutes,
is the most comprehensive reform of our immigration laws since
nineteen fifty two. It's an excellent example of a truly
successful bipartisan effort. The administration and the allies of immigration
reform on both sides of the Capital and both sides

(30:16):
of the aisle work together to accomplish these critically important
reforms to control illegal immigration.

Speaker 1 (30:23):
By the way, Telliver, you know how they dealt with
most of the people who are in the country illegally
with that bill.

Speaker 2 (30:28):
They legalize them. They just legalized them for real. That's
the easiest way to deal with the problem. I guess
Magic Wand Yeah, Well, we'll be right back with more
of your calls coming up on the middle. This is
the Middle. I'm Jeremy Hobson.

Speaker 1 (30:42):
This hour, we're asking you what do you want the
next president to do about immigration and deportation.

Speaker 2 (30:48):
You can call us.

Speaker 1 (30:48):
At eight four four four Middle that's eight four four
four six four three three five three. You can also
reach out to us at listen to Themiddle dot com.
I'm joined by Ray Suarez, longtime public media journalist and
author at Uma Arizona Mayor Doug Nichols, And let's get
right back to the phones. And Kathy, who is in Oshkosh, Wisconsin. Kathy,

(31:09):
Welcome to the Middle.

Speaker 2 (31:10):
Go ahead.

Speaker 20 (31:12):
Hey, so you covered a lot whatever was going to
talk about. But the point is I work with immigrants,
people who are refugees coming here legally and coming from
other countries, and it's ridiculous what they have to go through.
It is they could be in a refugee camp for

(31:34):
over seven years before they have a chance to make
it here. They have to have so much.

Speaker 18 (31:40):
Money, I mean it, I mean we're talking like over
ten thousand dollars. Sometimes they have to deal with lawyers,
immigration lawyers, and fees for all sorts of stuff and
pain for testing and everything like that. And we're these
people who are in a refugee camp that have have
no way of getting it so and it's so hard

(32:04):
for them to do that. They're doing it step by step,
and they have a lot of help. But if you
make the immigration process more streamlight as you were talking
about earlier, or more simpler or less expensive, I'm pretty
sure a lot of people would be happy to sign
up and do it legally because it'll be easier and

(32:26):
cheaper to do.

Speaker 1 (32:27):
Kathy, thank you very much for that call. Mayor Nichols.
What about that? Just streamlining the process, It's been talked
about for years, it never really seems to get done.

Speaker 2 (32:36):
Yeah.

Speaker 8 (32:37):
I agree, that's the big thing. That's the endgame we
need to get done. Tolliver's piece about President Reagan, if
in fifty three was the previous reform and then in
eighty six, I think it was.

Speaker 2 (32:51):
We were due for another word due.

Speaker 8 (32:53):
We're way overdue, way overdue, right, And that would be
the essence of immigration reform.

Speaker 10 (32:59):
What worked in eight in the eighties. He wasn't cutting
it today.

Speaker 8 (33:02):
So we need to figure out how do we do
that better and cheaper, not make it so lealistic, but
make it effective so that people can can come in
and still have, you know, things that they can engage in.
You know, it's not like I just have to wait
till I get enough money. Money seems to be like
the final thing you.

Speaker 10 (33:23):
Need to have to worry about.

Speaker 8 (33:25):
Let's get you here, Let's get you to the point
where you're contributing and you've settled down into a strong life,
and that's the strongest thing, not just for the people,
but also for our country.

Speaker 1 (33:39):
Let's go to Daniel, who's in Kansas City, Missouri. Daniel,
what do you think the next president should do about immigration?

Speaker 14 (33:46):
Hey, Jamie, thanks for taking the call.

Speaker 21 (33:49):
I think the next president needs to take on a
certain tone about integration. And I think I think we've
seen it before. I mean, I'm old enough to remember
when in school we would talk about America was a
melting pot, and I think we've lost sight of that fact.
And I know legal immigration is important and that there

(34:13):
are more illegal immigrants these days, but I think the
fact that we have our own refugee camps at the
border is not showing us as a sign of, you know,
being the most powerful, wealthy country in the world, and
it's showing us as a xenophobic and potentially you know,

(34:33):
dangerous country in the world. If we an't helped the
people that are coming here to immigrate and get a
better life. For themselves. That's the American promises to get
a better life for yourself, and they want to work
for it. Everybody here wants to work for that. So
why is this that we deemonize immagerance at this point
in time? And I think it's a certain person making

(34:55):
those statements and bringing up those old, hired enophobic fears
of the Phats that you know, have have played out
so horribly in the past. We're talking about mass importations.
That's scary. That is scary to many many Americans who
think that immigrants are the soul of this country.

Speaker 1 (35:16):
Yeah, Daniel, thank you very much for that Raceuirez Is
it's kind of you tell the story in your book
about people who have gone through this process, and yeah,
what do you think about what Daniel said there?

Speaker 9 (35:27):
Well, several of your callers have alluded to the rules,
and I don't think a lot of people realize just
how difficult and expensive and complicated and cumbersome and almost
it seems to the immigrants like it's designed to trip
them up, not to find a way for this to

(35:48):
work for them. And when we're talking about mass deportations,
I think a lot of people may think in the
abstract well, these people are breaking the law, let's get
them out of the country. And in the abstract it
sounds like a decent proposition. But I guarantee that when
you turn on your late local news and you see
uniformed people dragging others into vans, with kids standing on

(36:12):
the curb and crying and watching their parents being taken away,
if you see that on the news enough, it's not
going to be abstract anymore, and you're going to wonder
whether this is really the look that you want the
United States to have in the rest of the world.

Speaker 2 (36:27):
Well, mayor Nichols, what do you think about that?

Speaker 1 (36:29):
This is the proposal of Donald Trump right now is
to deport everyone who's in the country illegally, starting the
Trump campaign says, with people who've committed other crimes in
addition to crossing the border illegally, but eventually getting everybody out.
Is that in any way realistic in your view?

Speaker 10 (36:49):
Well, I don't think it's practical.

Speaker 8 (36:51):
There's people that are in process already to have a
legal process or legal status, So I mean, I don't
know that that is anything more than just a strong
talking point. But from the reality of what is happening
and the illegal immigration movement is I think what we
missed frequently is that process just to get to the

(37:12):
border is a humanitarian disaster, and the longer we leave
that border open, the longer we are inadvertently contributing to
that disaster.

Speaker 10 (37:22):
And people are raped and abused.

Speaker 8 (37:24):
You talk about money to come into this country legally,
it's about the same cost to come into this country illegally.
So I think there is quite a bit of a
discussion to try to discourage people and shut down that process,
and I kind of my personal opinion is that's what
that discussion is about about deportations, is more about trying

(37:44):
to change the narrative globally.

Speaker 1 (37:47):
And when you say leave the border open, I assume
you can't anywhere near youma just across the border without
anybody stopping you.

Speaker 10 (37:55):
Well, without anyone stopping you. What. Here's how it works.

Speaker 8 (38:01):
Most of the people who have come through the border,
We've had about fifty four thousand come through the UMA
sector this year this last fiscal year, they cross the
border and then they wait for border trol to come
pick them up. They're not it's not what you expect.
Where they're they're trying to evade.

Speaker 2 (38:17):
Running across the desert country.

Speaker 8 (38:19):
Right, They're not running across the desert or hopping in
a van unless they're bringing fatanyl or they're a convicted felon.

Speaker 10 (38:25):
Then they know they're going to get bounced and that
kind of thing.

Speaker 8 (38:27):
So you know, from that perspective, yes, people do walk
across the border, but they look to get picked up.
They're not looking to get evaded to evade.

Speaker 2 (38:38):
Okay, Mac is in Wanaki, Wisconsin.

Speaker 1 (38:43):
Mac, I hope I said the name of that, right,
I probably didn't, But anyway, go ahead with your.

Speaker 14 (38:51):
Well, thank you.

Speaker 22 (38:51):
I appreciate you taking the call very much.

Speaker 14 (38:53):
Thank you.

Speaker 2 (38:56):
Yeah, go ahead. What do you think?

Speaker 5 (38:59):
Sure?

Speaker 22 (39:00):
Well, you know, I'm a worker myself, I'm a student myself,
and I believe that a lot of times the powers that.

Speaker 23 (39:11):
Be are often trying to create a division between us
and the people who are trying to come into this country, even.

Speaker 22 (39:18):
Illegally or legally coming to this country.

Speaker 23 (39:21):
Just as immigrants, and regardless of parties conserving or liberal,
they've been labeling these people as an outgroup. And I
really do not believe that that's fair. Because US foreign
policy throughout not just our history but even our recent history,
it's in like since the new millennia has come in,

(39:43):
has been a policy of error, has been a policy
of exploitation, has been a policy of colonialism even and
we've seen this with how we treat our third world country.
They are one of the rich as countries in the
world due to their resources that they have, but they
do not have the labor source that's organized enough, nor

(40:08):
the political autonomies that are organized enough to extract that
and to maintain their wealth. Because first world countries like
Europe and like the United States are going and they're
extracting their wealth for our own gain, and I think
oftentimes we take that for granted.

Speaker 1 (40:27):
So so your point, just briefly, what would you like
the next president to do about immigration?

Speaker 23 (40:33):
Sure, I think personally I'd like to see less of
a division between us and them.

Speaker 14 (40:37):
We need to have more.

Speaker 23 (40:40):
More literature and more policy about treating them as human beings.
You know, seeing these kids in cages with poor living conditions,
you know, like these people are just trying to seek
better lives. They do what you and me would do.

Speaker 1 (40:52):
Thank you for that, Resoirez, your thoughts. I mean, we've
we've heard this in a couple of different ways. This
hour from from different callers, just more humanity to the situation.

Speaker 9 (41:02):
Just a couple of days drive from the Texas border
is the coffee zone of Guatemala, and the climate is
changing there and changing rapidly. And if you're a young worker,
not a plantation owner, but just a teenager or a
young adult who helps in the coffee industry in Guatemala,

(41:27):
when the rains fail or two years of rainfall in
the course of a couple of weeks making it impossible
to bring in a crop. There's no welfare structure, there's
no job reassignment mechanism. You either walk and go somewhere
where you can work and eat, or you stay there

(41:50):
and stop. All over the world there are people making
choices like that. A lot of people are heading to
our border from places where they've just decided they.

Speaker 2 (42:01):
Can't make a go of it anymore.

Speaker 9 (42:03):
And I sympathize with the caller's point, But right now
the United States doesn't have the mechanics to address that either,
not in the short term anyway. But we really should
recognize that there are many countries in crisis, and part
of the problem is politics. If an American president try

(42:24):
to stanch the flow of immigrants from Venezuela. That person,
a woman or a man, would be accused by the
opposite party of coddling the regime in Caracas. How come
you're a friend of the Venezuelans when actually you're just
trying to slow down that human tide that's making things
not only difficult in the United States, but in Colombia

(42:47):
and Ecuador and Peru and other places. This is a crisis,
and we're not treating it that way. We're treating it
as some sort of political slanging match in Washington, d c.
And it's not working out, either for native foreign Americans
or for the people who are coming here.

Speaker 3 (43:04):
Jeremy, we have so much coming in can I sneak?

Speaker 2 (43:06):
Okay, yeah, go for it real quick.

Speaker 3 (43:09):
Forest and Golden Colorado says mass immigration cannot be sustained.
It's not sustainable as to water, energy resources, quality of
live climate change acceleration. We need to stop all immigration
if we hope to survive the twenty first century as
a sustainable civilization. Last one, Shelley says, why do we
have this crisis in the first place. Isn't the United
States responsible for establishing policies that created our immigration crisis.

(43:32):
I feel like if we had another hour we can
get into that.

Speaker 1 (43:34):
Yeah, I mean, we do need to do another hour
on this, because there's the lines are completely full right now.
But I want to get to another caller, Brett, who
has been on the line waiting from Tetonia, Idaho. Brett,
go ahead, welcome to the middle.

Speaker 14 (43:51):
Thank you very much.

Speaker 7 (43:52):
AI. First and foremost want to thank you guys for
the forum that you provide. And I really find it
enlightening the lot of the people I've been listening to
sort of cover that middle gamut and really give a
real clear you know there. It sounds like there's a
lot of people on both sides that all have really
fine points, and so I want to thank you for that.

Speaker 2 (44:16):
Thank you, thank you.

Speaker 7 (44:19):
Yes, and so the one thing first and foremost I
want to at least try to agree upon is that
when you travel the world country to country, border to border,
that there are rules and permission needed to do those.
And it's been very disheartening to see that we've allowed
so many illegal folks to come into this country, understanding

(44:41):
that they come from situations that are probably deplorable and
as well, though a caller mentioned something about how that
this country is very labor starved. And I work in
the construct construction industry, and I can tell you that

(45:03):
that's very clear that there are a lot of jobs
that are taken up by folks who are traveling into
our country, whether it's legal or illegal, that are providing labor,
and they aren't jobs that are being challenged. It's not
like people are not getting jobs because they are taking jobs.
They're taking jobs that.

Speaker 2 (45:24):
Are nobody wants.

Speaker 7 (45:27):
That no either nobody wants or no one has the
skill set four. And they're very fine paying jobs, you know,
that require a skill, So it's obvious we need them.
I do somewhat agree, having traveled a lot in South
America and knowing that if you were in if you
were from Argentina and you were in Chile and you

(45:49):
were cross there without a stamp to be there, you're
sent back home. Yeah, And I really think that's something
that we need to address in this country, and that
if we do how we run across them. We don't
need to go looking for people, but when we run
across them, maybe they need to go back home. And
if they do and are providing a service in this country,

(46:10):
we give them the ability to be able to come
back quickly. We need to clearly.

Speaker 1 (46:17):
I think we've got it there, and let me take
that to the mayor and I will say he brought
up South America. I do remember being in the Eusu Waterfalls,
which is on the border of Argentina and Brazil, and
as an American in this group of tourists, I was
the only one who wasn't allowed to go to Brazil
because to the Brazil side, because I didn't have a visa.

(46:38):
But they Brazil gave all the European tourists that were there,
they let them cross over, but Americans aren't allowed because
we do it to them. But anyway, what Brett said there,
it is true that the ability of somebody to go
into another country like the United Kingdom for example, is
much more difficult than it is in some ways to
come into the US.

Speaker 10 (46:59):
Yeah, and that's true.

Speaker 8 (47:01):
I think it's really starts with that discussion that Bi Potterson,
that sit down adults in the room, kind of discussion
on what do we want as a country, what are
those rules in those parameters, and then enforce them without
enforcing them. You know, we could have this conversation and
we will have this conversation until infinity, But we need

(47:21):
to have that conversation about you know what is we
can't assume we can't absorb everybody into this country that
wants to come, So how do we make sure we're
approaching it from an equitable standpoint? I think those are
the conversations we need to have, and then you can
talk about, Okay, what laws make that happen and what
policies from the administration make that happen.

Speaker 1 (47:43):
I'm going to ask each of you just for a
five second answer, do you think whoever wins the election,
that we're going to get significant action on immigration?

Speaker 2 (47:50):
Mayor Nichols, you will.

Speaker 10 (47:53):
I think you will under the Trump administration.

Speaker 8 (47:56):
I'm not quite as confident under the Harris race Warez.

Speaker 9 (48:02):
There's never been as stark a difference between two major
party candidates as there is now on immigration.

Speaker 2 (48:09):
Ever.

Speaker 1 (48:10):
Yeah, well, I want to thank my guest, Racewarez, a
longtime public radio host, journalist and author of the book
We Are Home, Becoming American in the twenty first Century,
and the mayor of Yuma, Arizona, Doug Nichols.

Speaker 2 (48:22):
Thank you both so much.

Speaker 9 (48:23):
Thank you great to be with you, Jeremy, and.

Speaker 1 (48:26):
Next week, we'll be asking you what you want the
next president to do about another top issue, the economy.

Speaker 3 (48:32):
Be sure to call in at eight four four four Middle.
That's eight four four four six four three three five three,
or you can reach out at Listen to the Middle
dot com, where you can also sign up for our
free weekly newsletter.

Speaker 2 (48:42):
Also this program.

Speaker 1 (48:43):
Note, on Sunday, October twentieth, The Middle will have a
live cross border election special, not the border we've been
talking about tonight, but Canada can Canadian and American callers
from across the continent. If you want to be on
that show and let Canadians know what you're thinking about as.

Speaker 2 (48:56):
You vote, go to CBC dot caa slash air check.

Speaker 1 (49:00):
The Middle is brought to you by Longnook Media, distributed
by Illinois Public Media and Arvana Illinois and produced by
Harrison Patino, Danny Alexander, Sam Burmisdas, and John barth. Our
intern is Annikadessler. Our technical director is Jason Croft.

Speaker 2 (49:13):
Thanks to our podcast audience and the more than now
four hundred

Speaker 1 (49:16):
And twenty public radio stations making it possible for people
across the country to listen to the Middle, I'm Jeremy
Hobson and I'll talk to you next week.
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