December 6, 2024 • 49 mins
On this episode of The Middle we're asking you: Do you struggle with loneliness and, if you do, what can we do to solve it? We're joined by Colorado Springs Mayor Yemi Mobolade and author David Jay, plus callers from around the country. #loneliness #isolation #community #depression #anxiety
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Speaker 1 (00:00):
The Middle is supported by Journalism Funding Partners, a nonprofit
organization striving to increase the sustainability of local journalism by
building connections between donors and news organizations. More information on
how you can support the Middle at Listen toothmddle dot com.
Welcome to the Middle. I'm Jeremy Hobson and I am
(00:21):
flying solo this week, not because we're doing a show
about loneliness, although that could be the reason. It's actually
because our house DJ Tolliver is off this week. He
will be back next week, and the only consolation is
that I get to announce we have new listeners this
week on Station WDET in Detroit, Michigan. So Welcome to
the Middle, and the topic this hour is loneliness. It
(00:44):
turns out it is so connected to so many other
issues in this country, technology, rapid social change, remote work, overwork, individualism, spirituality,
the pandemic, and political vision. The Surgeon General of the
United States has declared loneliness and epidemic. A pull from
(01:05):
the American Psychiatric Association this year found that one in
three Americans struggles with feelings of loneliness at least once
a week, and our loneliness problem affects just about everything,
including our productivity, our relationships, and of course our politics.
So our question to you this hour what can we
do about America's loneliness epidemic? The number to call is
(01:28):
eight four four four Middle. That is eight four four
four six four three three five three, or you can
write to us at Listen to the Middle dot com.
Let's meet our panel. Colorado Springs Mayor Yemmi Mobilatte is
with us. Earlier this year, that city specifically asked residents
to host parties and gatherings to get to know their
neighbors and combat loneliness. Mayor Mobilatte, Welcome to the Middle.
Speaker 2 (01:50):
Jeremy, it's a joy to be Onion Show. Thank yous
for having me.
Speaker 1 (01:53):
And joining us from Asheville, North Carolina. David Jay, author
of the book Relationality, How moving from transactional to transfertional
relationships can reshape our lonely world. David, great to have
you on the show as well.
Speaker 3 (02:05):
So fantasy to be here and great to be with you, Mary,
Jemmy and David.
Speaker 1 (02:11):
Before we get to the phones, actually, Mary Mavalatte, let
me ask you about that initiative I just mentioned, having
people host these gatherings and these parties in Colorado Springs.
What kind of an effect did that happen? Why did
you do that?
Speaker 4 (02:21):
Yeah, So I'm eighteen months into this incredible job as
mayor best job I've ever had, hardest job I've ever had,
And most civic leaders know that we're in the business of.
Speaker 2 (02:32):
Responding to public safety issues, and.
Speaker 4 (02:38):
My work is a lot of times it's responding after
things have happened, and I wanted to make sure that
we were also preventing issues, societal issues from happening. And
it turns out that mental health, like our collective mental
well being, is one of the best way to ensure
that we can pursue those upstream solutions.
Speaker 2 (02:58):
And we were also paying.
Speaker 4 (02:59):
Attention to the US Surgeon Journal General's report.
Speaker 2 (03:03):
He wrote a book on it.
Speaker 4 (03:04):
He has that ay two page report that lonland has
been the biggest epidemic. Next Door sponsored a studied I
showed that known as few as six of your neighbors
drastically improves your mental well being and reducing as anxiety.
Speaker 2 (03:20):
So, you know what, we decided to start a neighboring movement.
Speaker 4 (03:23):
Let's address one of the greatest crisis of our time
by just being a community of great neighbors. Let's build
a city of great neighbors and great neighborhoods by bringing
people together and around it to form meaningful connections.
Speaker 1 (03:35):
So that's about those in person connections. But David Jay,
a lot of people, when they think about loneliness will
probably turn their thoughts first to all the time we're
spending online on I guess so called social media, even
though often it could be rather anti social. But how
do you think the increasing use of technology and social
media plays into the loneliness epidemic?
Speaker 3 (03:58):
So I think technology can be a beautiful way to connect,
but a lot of times social media is part of
the problem. I work a lot with these social media companies.
You used to go into the Facebook offices New York
and it would say we connect people in giant letters
by the elevators. But actually what they're doing is optimizing
for engagement. They want people to spend time on their phones,
(04:20):
not to spend time with one another. And when companies
are really precisely engineering to get people to look away
from one another and towards our phones, it's only serving
to make us lonely. Relationships happen in small places where
people who get us show up on a regular basis,
places like the kind of neighborhood parties you're talking about, Mariyami.
(04:41):
And there is technology out there that helps us build
those places, it's just not as profitable. So the technology
that most of us are seeing is built on a
really different model that is not helping us form relationships
most of the time.
Speaker 1 (04:54):
Yeah, as I was getting ready for this show, I
was just thinking about social media in particular as something
that is relatively new to us us as a society,
and yet completely unnatural for us to be spending that
much time just looking at a device and interacting with
technology as opposed to with another human being. Mayor Ba Balade.
As we have this conversation, we know that an historically
(05:14):
low number of Americans are involved in religion. You actually
started a church in Colorado Springs. What kind of effect
does that have on loneliness, that lack of that kind
of community, both in terms of the physical gathering and
the spiritual connection that people may have.
Speaker 2 (05:32):
That's a great question.
Speaker 4 (05:33):
And I know you both are familiar with the concept
of blue zones and the regions in our country that
people live longer, right.
Speaker 2 (05:44):
Yeah, I live longest.
Speaker 4 (05:45):
When you study you look at those factors, spirituality is
one of them. In fact, I've been I've given the
pastors in my community the charge to encourage people to return,
come back to choice because since COVID, people stop attending
churches and started watching online and in terms of that's
(06:05):
not enough even in terms of your spiritual development. When
you take away the community aspect of spirituality, that really
has a huge impact on our quality of living. And
so terms out that spirituality, I don't I don't really
care which whatever it looks like.
Speaker 2 (06:22):
But being a part of a spiritual community.
Speaker 4 (06:25):
When you study the world, places that live that are
healthiest and lived the longest, spirituality is a big part
of it. So that's one of the strategies that we
look to we're looking at in our city. We also
call them third places, gathering places, third spaces. When you're
not at work and you're not at home, where are
these third places in the community where people gather and
(06:47):
that also helps froster social connection, and churches are a
great places for third spaces.
Speaker 1 (06:54):
I think the other secret in the blue zones is
often olive oil, very good olive oil. Maybe island and
Italy Ace. Let me ask you one more thing, David
Jay before we go to the funds and they are
lighting up right now. You write in your book Relationality
that loneliness is like a lack of sleep or lack
of exercise, but the harm stretch from a breakdown in
(07:15):
our individual cells to a breakdown in our democracies. Explain
what you mean by that.
Speaker 3 (07:21):
So I did a lot of research into just how
many things are impacted by our capacity for a healthy relationship,
and I think rather than talking about loneliness, I want
to just talk about how many things get better when
we form healthy relationships. Our mental health, our physical health,
our educational outcomes, creativity. There's research that shows that there's
(07:42):
almost nothing better for economic mobility. We get scientific breakthroughs
with better relationships, and there's a lot of research that
shows that the health of our democracies is really tied
to exactly may Yemi, you were talking about how well
we know our neighbors, we feel like we're in community.
In the messiness of community really bubbles up to the
(08:06):
difference between democracy and what a lot of people monitoring
democracy around the world are concerned about now, is authoritarianism good?
Speaker 1 (08:17):
Very interesting point and of course ties into the things
that we've been covering for many, many months. Now let's
go to the phones, and again you can reach us
at eight four four for middle that's eight four four
four six four three three five three. Ryan is in Pittsburgh, Pennsylvania. Ryan,
welcome to the middle.
Speaker 5 (08:33):
Go ahead.
Speaker 6 (08:35):
Thank you so much for doing this topic tonight. There
are millions of people sitting alone with these exact concerns,
and you're doing a great public service by addressing this issue.
I'd like to share an anecdote as a former teacher
of fifteen years related directly to this. I started teaching
before smartphones came out in two thousand and seven. I
(08:56):
recently left the profession, so I've sort of seen a
change over that day eight and a half. One of
the things that stands out most pronouncedly is that with
the introduction of smartphones, we started seeing an increasing number
of middle and high schoolers turning to social media and
dating apps to find what they believed was more ideal interactions,
(09:17):
more ideal or more attractive people to date, people who
had more exact political or social perspectives on the world.
And we tried communicating with these children life is about
developing relationships with people who aren't in exact match. You'll
never find an exact match. And I'm very concerned that
(09:38):
the younger generations believed, or I'm sorry, believe that highly
personalized matches exist out there. One young lady that I
had a one on one conversation with, she had declining
mental health and we asked her what's going on, and
she said, well, I don't really have any friends here.
All my friends are online. In fact, my best friend
(09:59):
is in order. And well, why don't you make friends
with your neighbors? What about the people in the lunch room,
what about the people in the classroom in there? And
and she said, well, they have a different opinion than me,
or they are somehow different from me. And you know,
life is all about compromises and finding middle ground with
people who are not exactly like you. And I just
(10:21):
feel like social media is sending an antithetical message about
what life is going to really be like.
Speaker 1 (10:29):
Ryan, Thank you so much for that. David Jay sort
of that I guess that search for perfection because you
have access to everybody out there as opposed to just
the people around you, I will say.
Speaker 3 (10:40):
I grew up in the LGBT community. One of the
things that was really beautiful there was that there was
the sense that you didn't need to perfectly match someone,
You just needed them to get some part of you
that maybe the rest of the world didn't get. And
once that was true, once you had that aaew of connection,
(11:01):
it was almost good for them to be different, right.
It was good to be connected to people who really
come from different perspective, different life experience, so long as
we have that thread that we can connect around. And
so a lot of my relational life has been finding
all these different communities where I connect deeply around different
facets of myself, rather than trying to find a person
or community that matches me exactly. And I also say,
(11:24):
what you were talking about phones is really important. I'm
in involved with the organization fair Play that's campaign for
phone free schools. I think that figuring out how we
can have some distance from this technology it creates space
where people connect is really important.
Speaker 7 (11:38):
You know.
Speaker 1 (11:38):
It's interesting the idea of taking phones out of schools
is actually something that we've seen on both the Republican
side and the Democratic side. Leaders in both parties seem
to be on board with that. I just want to
mention that John in Chicago is writing to us saying
you need to know the other side of the lonely
coin is the selfish, self centered, uninterested, board unfocused side.
(12:00):
If you don't volunteer, you don't give of yourself, if
you don't just step up and volunteer, then your selfishness
makes you become lonely. Loneliness is a prison of your
own making. You can write to us at Listen to
the Middle dot com and we'll be right back with
more of your calls on the Middle. This is the Middle.
I'm Jeremy Hobson. If you're just tuning in the Middle
as a national call in show, we are focused on
(12:21):
elevating voices from the middle geographically, politically, philosophically, or maybe
you just want to meet in the middle. This hour,
we're asking you what can we do to solve America's
loneliness epidemic. The number to call in is eight four
four four Middle. That is eight four four four six
four three three five three, or you can write in
at Listen to the Middle dot com. I'm joined by
(12:42):
Colorado Springs Mayor Yemi Mobilad and David Jay, author of relationality.
How moving from transactional to transformational relationships can reshape our
lonely world. Before we get back to the phones, the
US Surgeon General VIVEC. Murphy, as we said, has characterized
this as an epidemic. Here is in a public service
announcement about loneliness.
Speaker 8 (13:04):
Loneliness is far more than just a bad feeling. Being
socially disconnected, which can range from feeling alone to being isolated,
is bad both for individual and societal health. Research shows
that loneliness and isolation are associated with a greater risk
of heart disease, dementia, stroke, depression, anxiety, and premature debt.
(13:25):
In fact, lacking connection can increase the risk of premature
death the levels comparable to smoking daily.
Speaker 1 (13:33):
That is just unbelievable, mayor Mobiladae. What can the government
do to combat loneliness aside from what you have already
talked about doing in Colorado Springs and getting people to
just get together with their neighbors.
Speaker 4 (13:47):
Well, that data point of the health risk of loneliness
as bad as smoking.
Speaker 2 (13:52):
Fifty sears to days is alarming.
Speaker 4 (13:56):
I mean, one of the first things we can do
as government leaders and c leaders is that we have
a bully popit. We we have a mic, a constant
mic in front of us, So I get to help
sound the alarm on that on that data point and
the risk of if we continue to go that route.
And here's the thing, Jeremy and David, I know you
(14:17):
both get this, but a lot of the root cause
of our societal crisis, whether it's domestic abuse, teenage suicide, homelessness,
they all and more, they all stem from an unhealthy
mind and a lot of it is connected to the
epidemic of loneliness. As government leaders, one of the things
I've tried to do too as a government leader, one
of the things I've tried to do is to connect
(14:37):
the problem with the solution and to also show that
when we go upstream and tackle these issues, by the way,
it saves the city money, believe it or not. So
one of the areas, as as as mayor, I have
to addresses my code with my code enforcement team. So
when homes are look abandoned and the yard is overgrown,
(14:59):
I mean there's somebody, yeah, typically lives there that is lonely.
So as we've activated a city of great neighbors, the
stories that are coming out of this movement, just unbelievable.
People are going, I had no idea. So as they
meet the fellow neighbors, guess what, neighbors are getting to
know each other. Neighbors are now taking ownership of their
own neighborhood flourishing, and guess what, I don't have to
(15:21):
send code enforcement to that home to take care of
that abandoned look at home. The benefits are many, but
it takes the courage of government leaders saying traditionally, my
work is responding to issues. You know what, this time,
we're going to go upstream and take this crisis and
this act called action seriously.
Speaker 1 (15:41):
And David, that's on the government side. You I know,
have worked a lot with private companies on this issue.
What role does the private sector play in combating the
loneliness epidemic, even aside from just social media companies.
Speaker 3 (15:56):
So I think it's really interesting because they're really magic
things that can happen when you switch from being transactional
to being relational, from building an audience to investing in
a community. So I think about the impact on the
entertainment industry of having a really robust fan community. I
think about the impact in real estate of having a
thriving local community. It's not that there isn't a strong
(16:20):
economic benefit to investing in relationships between people. It's not
that we don't know how to do that. It's that
often companies have to release control a little bit. They
have to release control to the communities they're building, and
they're uncomfortable doing that. But when I've seen companies be
able to do that successfully, they can make really extraordinary
(16:42):
creative things happen.
Speaker 1 (16:45):
Let's go to Eugene, who's in White Marsh, Maryland's Eugene.
Welcome to the middle, Go ahead, Bhi.
Speaker 9 (16:52):
I just wanted to say on this particular issue. It's
a great issue to talk about, but you have you
can have a person that's married or have a or
from a boyfriend and they can feel lonely. And you
can have a single person that doesn't have a you know,
a spouse and they never feel they never feel lonely.
I think a lot has to do. It starts internally.
(17:12):
I think when you find joy in doing things, whether
it's exercising, whether it's reading books, when you find joy,
I think you're gonna feel happy and you're gonna naturally
gravitate towards people that I like you, and yes, that
can happen in church as well, But I really think
you have to it starts internally. I don't think.
Speaker 10 (17:31):
I don't think you.
Speaker 9 (17:32):
Can define your joy or your feeling of self worth
from connection or or or needing to connect with somebody
and make that the paramount. Uh, you know what way
to determine how happy you are? I think I think
it starts internally and then from internal I think you
make you make connections, But but you have to have
(17:52):
happiness within yourself first.
Speaker 1 (17:54):
Uh, Eugene, you sound like somebody who's figured it out.
Then you do you not feel lonely very much?
Speaker 7 (18:00):
Well?
Speaker 9 (18:00):
I think for me, I can't give myself any credit.
I think for me, from a spiritual point of view,
I think you have to have a belief system where
you you you believe in something other than yourself or
other than what human beings can do. And I think
when you're connected to just feeling that there's a lot
a lot of things you can't control. But the one
thing that you do have a certain amount of control
(18:21):
over is is how you approach things. You know things happen,
and so when you when you have those bad days
and look we've all had them. I've had them too.
I try and reflect and and see what my role was.
But also know too that you know the sun, the
sun is gonna come out tomorrow. Me bad days are
going to happen and the good days are going to happen.
(18:41):
And I think we have to keep that in mind,
whether whether the storms and you and you will have
the day, but you're going to have bad days.
Speaker 1 (18:49):
Eugene, thank you very much for that. Mayorm of a
lot of your thoughts on Eugene's points there.
Speaker 4 (18:54):
Well, I one of the things I'd like to point
out is it's it's okay, I'm gonna deviate a little
bit from from this point. But I don't know if
you guys have heard of the phrase lone wolves die,
And you know, I know that the when we talk
about loneliness, it's really it that's that looks different for
everyone to Eugene's point, But the essence and the crux
(19:19):
of this, this conversation and the meat of it is
the same that lone wolves died, you know that, And
that phrase the means that that humans, by nature, we
are biologically the adapted.
Speaker 2 (19:33):
To live in content in the context of community with
other people and whatever that looks like.
Speaker 4 (19:40):
If we don't have that, that leads to this, you know,
maybe not physical death like in the wild, but there
is a there is an element of death within us. So,
whether that's that community, whether it's your colleagues at work,
whether it's you, it's in a dane relationship, a marriage,
will relationship, parents on child, neighbors. I just think the
(20:04):
essence of that is we are wired to live in
the context of community.
Speaker 1 (20:07):
About are you saying, where are we pack animals? Like dogs?
Speaker 2 (20:10):
We are?
Speaker 4 (20:11):
That's something else. I so something else. I wanted to say,
humans are pack animals. I mean truly, we are biologically
disposed to just be in relationship with other people's and
that's how we conquer, That's how we Yeah.
Speaker 1 (20:26):
Kaylan is on the line from Sisters Oregon. Kaylan, welcome
to the middle, go ahead.
Speaker 11 (20:32):
Hey, thank you, And full disclosure. I used to work
for David at Center for Humane Technology. I divid. I
run a community building nonprofit in my community, and I
wanted to first just acknowledge the focus on neighborhoods. I
think that's something that we've really been honing in on
as well, even in a small town like ours of
(20:54):
thirty four hundred people were realizing that, you know, it's
easy to slip through the cracks, and especially for the
most vulnerable, it can be hard to build community. And
one of the ways that we're trying to bring those
people out and create a first point of contact is
by going almost to like a micro level of community building,
focusing on neighborhoods. We have a program where we similar
(21:15):
to what the mayor was sharing in Colorado Springs, we
offer one hundred and fifty dollars stipends to people who
want to host their own block party or neighborhood gathering
as a way of just getting to know that first
space in your community. What's better place than when you
walk out your front door to check the mail or
something like that. But even with all of our programs,
my question is, we know that no matter what events
(21:35):
we host, the people that are most vulnerable to social
isolation are the ones that are least likely to show up.
And so if we're really trying to move the needle
on this, how do we reach the people that we
know are the most prone to social isolation and loneliness.
How do we convince them that it is worth not
being lonely.
Speaker 1 (21:56):
Let's take that to your former colleague, David Jay. David,
how do you reach the people who are the least
likely to connect in that way?
Speaker 3 (22:05):
First of all, great to hear from your Kellen, and
I want to just really congratulate one thing you said,
which is there was a dollar sign in there. I
think one of the really important things when it comes
to addressing loneliness is it's not that we don't know
what to do, it's that we don't resource the people
who do this work, the people, places and practices, And
(22:25):
so I'm just really grateful that you and also you Maymi,
you're helping support this really really critical work. And I
think the question of how to invite people out of loneliness,
building those spaces, building those block parties is a really
important first step. And then I think it becomes okay,
how do we have a wide range of these local
gatherings and think about how to meaningfully invite people into them,
(22:49):
whether it's a local game store that someone can show
up too that's really welcoming, or a church or a
music group that is appealing to someone who's elderly. Having
that range and then thoughtfully extending there's invitations is really important,
Mary Amy your thoughts.
Speaker 4 (23:04):
Yeah, I also want to follow up with Collins and comment.
One of the things that our churches did was, I
tell you we had a benefactor in town who gave
a good sum of money that we used to activate
that we gave to churches as an incentive for them
to give money to hosts to be able to host
(23:24):
neighborhood gatherings.
Speaker 2 (23:26):
And with that, with that, with the funding that we received,
we had stickers and T shirts.
Speaker 4 (23:30):
But one of the most important things tools that we
used were magnets that sat on people's that were on
people's fridges, and then on magnets your house is in
the middle, and then around it the different homes around you,
but they're blank.
Speaker 2 (23:45):
And the exercise was to try to write the names
of your neighbors. So if you can equip the host
with the tools to actually take the lead, that that
really moves the needles.
Speaker 4 (23:56):
So a lot of our hosts took it seriously and
began to invite neighbors that were living in a neighborhood.
Speaker 2 (24:02):
Even sometimes some of the most isolated neighbors.
Speaker 4 (24:05):
They took the lead and knocking the door and say, hey,
we're having a neighborhood party, and sometimes they have to say,
I'm really embarrassed. I've lived in this neighbors for ten
years and I don't know your name. Would you and
would you be willing to come to our neighborhood gathering?
And they was surprised to see how many people actually responded.
This is one of the most consistent things we heard
over and over where people actually came. We surprised people
(24:26):
actually came.
Speaker 1 (24:27):
So we're talking there about neighbors in their houses. Listen
to this comment from Jim who wrote into us from Taos,
New Mexico, who says, we have decimated our cities and
our neighborhoods and our communities in order to make room
for cars. It is cars and the community design that
results from car culture that keeps us separated. That actually
is something that has come up in a number of
articles I've read about loneliness. I go to you, David
(24:50):
jay On that how does car culture fit into this
problem in this country?
Speaker 3 (24:57):
So part of how we formallyationship is just a matter
of statistics, right, How many people are we interacting with
every day? How many little moments of shared interaction do
we have that could turn into relationship, and cars just
cut off a lot of those moments. They keep us
isolated and we move around. They result in communities that
(25:17):
are parking lots rather than parks, where we are driving
rather than walking down the sidewalk. So I think they
just remove so much of the context where we can
meet new people or interact with people we already know.
Speaker 1 (25:32):
Amelia is with us from ann Arbor, Michigan. Amelia, welcome
to the middle.
Speaker 12 (25:36):
Go ahead.
Speaker 13 (25:38):
Well, I was very isolated for a very long time
in my life, but in the last year, I've found
a third place and I've started sitting at a bar
once a week, which has been more effective for me
and my happiness than years and years of therapy. And
I've been trying to make more connection with people, but
(26:01):
I'm often finding that other people aren't necessarily reflecting effort
back at me. And I think part of the reason
why being at the bar was helpful wasn't the social
interaction itself, but that it recalibrated my sense of like
what was normal, because I think people get such a
(26:23):
filtered version of you know, everyone's curated life on social media.
Online we see all these people who are perfect and
we can never live up to that expectation, and so
people are afraid to share themselves because they know that
they're not perfect any connection at all.
Speaker 1 (26:41):
You mean a third place besides your home or your office, Yes, right,
and you find that that is different enough that it's
that's important for you.
Speaker 13 (26:50):
To have that in your life very much so, yes.
Speaker 1 (26:54):
Okay, Amelia, thank you for that. Mary mel Alata, what
do you think about that? Having this whether it's a
bar or a coffee shop or the you know, the
neighborhood park or something like that, a place where you
can interact with people in a way that I guess
is not as structured as it would be in your workplace.
And often these days, if you go into a lot
of workplaces, there's nobody there because they're all working remotely.
Speaker 4 (27:16):
Amelia, I just want to comment and applaud your courage.
Well done, Love. I love your story and that's inspiring
to me too. What Amelia is talking about is very
near and dear to my leadership. Before becoming mayor, I'm
actually a small business owner. I created two third places
in my city. We actually call them Median houses. It
(27:38):
was our way of retelling the story of a third place,
A public house. In America, we know them as pubs.
We call them pubs. When you look at the origin
of pubs, there were public houses, there were third places.
There were public places where accidental collision happened. So these
are gathering places where people are moving about and surprised
(28:00):
that the conversation. Some of the best conversations I've had,
both as a customer and business owner is in third places.
So third places is a big part of the solution
when we talk about loneliness and social isolation.
Speaker 2 (28:14):
And that's the next campaign, that's one of the future
campaigns for us.
Speaker 4 (28:17):
We started with a thousand neighborhood gathering and we're having
conversations around promoting the more third places in the communities.
The bars, the cafes, the coffee shop, their churches, the barbershops.
But every one of them has a role to play
in terms of moving us from isolation back into a community.
So kudos Amelia.
Speaker 1 (28:36):
Let's go to Larissa who is in Aurora, Illinois. Larissa,
welcome to the middle. Tell us what you think.
Speaker 14 (28:45):
So one of the things that I have found throughout
my life is that I'm in the middle of a crowd.
So I'm at these social gatherings. I'm participating as a volunteer,
but I don't fit in. I'm being talked over, and
in some ways being out in those events and not
(29:08):
feeling seen is even worse. It makes loneliness even sharper.
And yeah, I think that people don't do a good
enough job listening. No, it's not just waiting for your
opportunity to talk, it's listening to other people who are there.
Speaker 1 (29:30):
Yeah, interesting point, David Jay, What do you think about that?
Speaker 3 (29:35):
First of all, I really hope for you that you
can find places where you do feel seen. I think
having a range of places out there and being able
to find places where a part of ourselves that feels
lonely can be seen is so so important. And I
think the point you make about listening is also really important.
A practice that has been and this also speaks to
(29:57):
an early practice that I think has been really powerful
for me, is just reflecting on what kind of relationship
am I excited to invite in my life? What what
am I curious about? Are there is there a particular
kind of person where if they start saying a life experience,
I'm gonna light up and let them know that I'm
excited to connect with them, because being ready to light
up connect with people, being ready, being ready, knowing who
(30:19):
we really are ready to listen to is a really
good way to know how to invite relationship into our
life again.
Speaker 1 (30:25):
Our number is eight four four four middle. That is
eight four four four six four three three five three.
I'd still love to hear from somebody gen Z on
this topic. We'll see if they call. Coming up on
the middle. This is the middle. I'm Jeremy Hobbson this hour,
we're asking you how can we solve America's loneliness epidemic?
You can call us an eight four four four middle.
That's eight four four four six four three three five three.
(30:47):
I'm joined by Colorado Springs mayor Jemmy Mobilade and author
David Jay. His book is called Relationality. And before we
go back to the phones, gentlemen, we hear a lot
about the lonely young man in this country, both the
problems they face and sometimes the problems they cause. The
psychiatrist Jordan Peterson, who's very influential and also very polarizing,
(31:07):
we should say, considers himself an advocate for young men.
Here he is in an interview with Piers Morgan.
Speaker 15 (31:14):
People have been after me for a long time by
because I've been speaking to disaffected young men. Now, what
a terrible thing to do that is. I thought the
marginalized we're supposed to have a voice. It's very difficult
to understand how demoralized people are, and certainly many young
men are in that category. All these men who are alienated,
(31:36):
it's like they're lonesome and they don't know what to
do and everyone piles abuse on them.
Speaker 1 (31:43):
By Baalade, how do you see the loneliness among young
men affecting our politics right now? And did it have
much to do with the reelection of Donald Trump.
Speaker 4 (31:55):
It's really hard to comment on what has contributed to
the reelection of Donald Trump because this last election cycle
has as really I felt the President elect pulled Republicans
and Independents and but that's a whole that's a whole
different story. But I know there is something called the
(32:15):
epidemic of male loneliness. We know that's a real thing.
I mean, and it starts with young men. And I
think what contributes to it It has to do with
what we're talking about. I think social media plays the
part in it, but also biology also plays a part
in it as well. I think as men, you know,
we we naturally have ego, and that even starts at
(32:37):
a young age. I think when women by and young
girls by nay job. I have a young daughter, say
even watching even watching my two young sons and that
social relationship with my young daughter, you can see young
girls naturally communicate. It's so fun to watch how they
come together, they talk to communicate.
Speaker 2 (32:55):
And as young men, it's it's just different.
Speaker 4 (32:57):
So some of it is biological and so, and then
you give them devices and that just makes it even worse.
Speaker 2 (33:04):
And so some of that is on us as parents,
so ensure.
Speaker 4 (33:07):
That we are teaching our young men to engage with
other with adults and other young men as well.
Speaker 1 (33:14):
David, what do you think is there's something different about
young men and loneliness versus other groups.
Speaker 3 (33:21):
Growing up? A lesson that I received is that masculinity
is about showing up. It's about knowing how to show
up with the people in our lives. It's about knowing
how to show up for the communities around us. And
it's been amazing. As I've done work across the political spectrum,
I've found people who that idea of masculinity really resonates
with then. So when I hear about this epidemic of loneliness,
(33:44):
I hear, Okay, here are people who want to be
showing up for people around them, for communities around them.
And maybe then I'd invite it. Maybe they don't know how.
And so I think it comes back to that question
of invitation. What are the spaces that these people can
invite it into to where they can do the showing
up they can do. I think the care that we
(34:06):
need to feel connected to the communities around us.
Speaker 1 (34:09):
Let's go back to the funds. You know, I ask
for young people and I get them. And here's an
eighteen year old Charles in Denver. Charles, welcome to the middle.
Speaker 16 (34:18):
Go ahead, hey there, thanks for having me on. I
was just listening to a previous point by I think
nave Is Amelia who said going out to the bar
once a week was incredibly helpful for encouraging her communication skills.
And I think that that's something that is kind of
(34:41):
overlooked a lot when it comes to improving one's vicinity
for social interaction. And that's that, you know, when you
initially think of that, you think of, oh, I have
to go out and I have to talk with other people,
and I think that that's you know, that's definitely part
of it. But another part of it is just being
in a place where there are other people, and that's
(35:02):
that's a bar, that's a coffee shop, that's the library,
that's school, And especially since COVID happened a couple of
years ago, everybody was inside. We had no reference point
of how to act in social situations, which leads to
people becoming more polarizing because they're thinking, oh, I'm different
(35:23):
in this way to this person. Therefore we might not
be able to form a relationship. And I think that
going out and just spending time and a place where
you can see other people interacting does really really well
for kind of mending that crack and understanding of how
people relate to each other.
Speaker 2 (35:43):
Do you find it.
Speaker 1 (35:44):
Do you find that your people who are your age,
your peers agree with you about that that it's not
all about life online and that you should go out
and interact with people in person.
Speaker 16 (35:57):
I have a very different view than a lot of people.
I mean, I bring that up quite a lot, and
I'm I'm I myself don't have social media. I think
that it really does not yet. It's not through wonders
for any part of my life, and it only hindered it.
So I deleted all of it, like many years ago,
(36:20):
and I encourage a lot of my friends to do
the same, but they they don't because that's how that's
how they think that they're connecting with other people. And
I say think because I don't think that that's connecting
with other people. And when I point that out, they
they think I think that they obviously I can see that.
(36:42):
I think that it's it's it's pretty difficult to be like, well,
i'm talking to this person technically not really.
Speaker 1 (36:49):
Right, Charles, thank you so much, A really really great
point there. I want to go to an email that's
come in from Marine in Chicago who says, I lived
in my neighborhood for three years and really very few
people until I got a dog. I've developed so many
relationships and I know what's going on in the neighborhood.
I mayor I totally agree with that. I think having
a dog you start talking to random people that you
(37:10):
would never before.
Speaker 4 (37:11):
Now that's absolutely tries to as someone who's on the
dog and also kids, I mean the great conversation started.
I mean, dogs play and the dog part kids play,
and then as as a parent and the owners stand there.
You know, it's it's natural to have a conversation because
you have something in common.
Speaker 2 (37:29):
So that's that's actually a wonderful strategy.
Speaker 1 (37:31):
Let's go to Rick, who's in Houston, Texas. Rick, welcome
to the middle Go.
Speaker 17 (37:36):
Ahead, Hey, thanks for taking my call. Yeah, so I
grew up in a traditional family, very rural area, siblings
and stay at home mother. She kept us community connected
to all the activities in the community. We now live
in a time where most families they don't have the
(37:57):
freedom to economically have someone at home who's keeping people connected.
The geographic area of the United States is amazingly large,
and therefore the it's economic area is also very large.
And there's so many opportunities that come and sometimes the
right opportunity just what you can find and what works
(38:18):
well for your career and your talents. It pulls you
very far away from the community you grew up in,
and and.
Speaker 7 (38:24):
Most people.
Speaker 18 (38:27):
Small communities feed large cities. Cities are monsters that eat
small communities resources. And we're all many of us are
disconnected from where we came from. Conversely, when I often
go to Ireland, I see people who are geographically locked
within their culture that they may choose to stay in
in the European area economic area. But oftentimes when I'm
(38:49):
going from the airport on a bus to the hotel,
I see these pockets of communities located with co located
with a school and a grocery store, and they walk
everywhere with their children.
Speaker 1 (39:00):
So just the just the sheer size of the cities.
And of course you're calling from Houston, which is so big, uh,
and it goes on for such a long stretch, uh,
mayor Maamlade. What do you think about that? Just the
the size, the lack of walkability in many of these places.
Speaker 4 (39:17):
I mean, yeah, I And by the way, I have
family in Houston as well, and I was just there
over Thanksgiving.
Speaker 2 (39:22):
So I I I as a as.
Speaker 4 (39:25):
A city official, I think of city design plays of
fact in it.
Speaker 2 (39:30):
We were talking earlier about the role of cars.
Speaker 4 (39:34):
I think this is how neighborhood designs are really important.
City design is, and how how walkable is your your
city As you think about designing a city around people
walking in masses of people, When you think.
Speaker 2 (39:47):
About neighborhoods and building homes.
Speaker 4 (39:50):
We is a focus on garages or is a focus
on front porch. My wife and I have intentionally chosen
to live in the more historic part of the city
because it's got front porches. So the focus is not
the garage where people pull into the garage, you know.
Speaker 2 (40:07):
The focus is the front point. We get to sit
on our front porch, we get to park on the
street because we want that accidental collision.
Speaker 4 (40:14):
We want to be able to talk to our neighbors,
because it's possible to live next to your next door
neighborhood and not even know who they are. And so
I do think that has a role to play. I
am proud of the developers and the buildings in my
city that are actually building homes that are mimicking the
homes from the eighteen late eighteen hundreds and early the.
Speaker 1 (40:33):
Front porch, but the front ports like it's like New
Orleans in the middle of Colorado.
Speaker 4 (40:38):
Yes, we're seeing a return even in terms of how
we think about design.
Speaker 2 (40:44):
So that's that's a very important piece of it.
Speaker 1 (40:46):
That's interesting, David, David, your thoughts.
Speaker 3 (40:50):
Yeah, And I want to tease that one thing you
mentioned that I think is really really important, which is transitions,
these moments when people move. It's not that moving me
that were lonely. Whether or not we move, we're going
to go through really significant transitions in our life, whether
it's graduating college or tiring having your first kid. And
often these transitions when the strategy we used to use
(41:11):
to build relationships no longer work or tire, when people
sort of fall off and become lonely. So thinking about
the extra support we can give people when they go
through these critical moments and transitions that's sort of welcoming
into a new place or a new phase of life,
is I think one really important part of how we
can bat loneliness.
Speaker 1 (41:26):
Amy is in Pittsburgh. Amy, Welcome to the middle.
Speaker 12 (41:29):
Go ahead, Hello, Yes, Yes, I called in as I
was remarking that often when they're are community events, I've
been one of those people who doesn't show up and
I don't go. And I was just thinking about something
(41:54):
that I did on purpose because I was just dreading loneliness.
In particular, a very high stakes night that happened in
early November, which you might guess what it is.
Speaker 18 (42:08):
Election night.
Speaker 12 (42:08):
I didn't want to be alone, so it was easier
for me to plan to go all the way to
Boston from Pittsburgh to be with someone who I'm very
close with there to watch the election, because I just
thought it's almost like if it was a holiday, you
don't want to be alone. So I did that. And
what you may find interesting is that, well, my friend
(42:33):
actually was working on election day. So I particularly went
out and I went on to the Freedom Trail and
the end of my evening was to end at a tavern,
particularly where the Founding Fathers had been colluding for the revolution,
and I thought this would be really interesting. I'll go
there and talk to people.
Speaker 13 (42:53):
And I was.
Speaker 12 (42:58):
At two places. You know, they had a policy it
was no talking about the election, not to be talked about.
Speaker 19 (43:07):
Isn't that funny.
Speaker 1 (43:08):
You were trying to you were trying to not be lonely,
and they wouldn't let you. There was a policy that
said you couldn't do it. Amy, thank you for thank
you for calling and telling us that.
Speaker 7 (43:18):
Let me.
Speaker 1 (43:18):
Let me get to Robert, who's in Raleigh, North Carolina. Hi, Robert,
welcome to the middle Go ahead.
Speaker 5 (43:23):
Hey, hey, how you doing so? Yeah, I'm a technical
director in theater and I spent God, four good years,
uh teaching at a small college outside of d c
uh College of Southern Maryland, and uh, the person I
worked for was just a savant. He kind of powerhouse,
(43:46):
and you know I.
Speaker 19 (43:48):
Heard people talking about the community. Uh what is it
the community programs and stuff. He would not only you know,
we do shows as per normal, but like the the
way that he would just hurt the kids.
Speaker 20 (44:01):
Into community events kind of effortlessly, even if it was
you know, hey, we're doing the kids show. Can y'all
go down and do like half of it like at
this you know barbecue thing like and just kind of
you know, being present in the community kind of allowed
the kids to kind of you know, reach out to
a bunch of different folks. And having a place like
(44:24):
to work is also kind of you know, cathartic, I guess,
because we you know, we don't turn people away if
you want to come make lollipops or candy canes. We
actually had a student who this girl showed up and
she just wanted to work. So we kind of all
worked together, and you know it was about three months.
(44:45):
You know, she wasn't in a department, she just you
know just kind of was around and come to find
out her father had actually passed away and she was
going through this whole thing, and she just wanted to
be with people. And she was like it was nice
to just come in and you know, kind of leave
her stuff at the door and be a part of something,
(45:06):
you know, you know, be a.
Speaker 1 (45:08):
Part of the community. Be a part of the community. There, Robert,
thank you for that. I'm gonna sneak one more call
in here. Tommy in Chicago is with us. Hi, Tommy,
go ahead.
Speaker 14 (45:21):
Hey.
Speaker 7 (45:21):
You know, I hear you guys talking about all these
social engagements for the young people, and I really applaud it.
My experience has been most of the young kids I
know are not wanting to engage. I work as a
dormant in the hotel downtown Chicago, and people are always
have their heads and their gadgets. I ask them if
they need directions. They look at me like I'm offending them.
(45:41):
They give them a cell phone and Google Maps and
they're Christopher Columbus.
Speaker 1 (45:44):
You know.
Speaker 7 (45:44):
It's like they don't want to interact with you.
Speaker 10 (45:46):
Oh I know where I'm going to leave me alone.
It's crazy.
Speaker 1 (45:49):
Yeah, So they're just not interested.
Speaker 10 (45:52):
They're not they feel like they have all the answers
that they need. Is how it feels to me, Why
am I gonna bother this human being here who knows
the city very well. So many times they'll turn left,
then they'll turn right, trying to get their cell phone orientation,
and I'm like, I'm here for you, but no they'd
rather use that.
Speaker 1 (46:09):
Yeah, well that would be me not having a good
sense of direction. Also, Tommy, thank you. Uh uh may
or mobilata your your thoughts on that just sort of
sometimes it's hard to coax people to actually interact with
the world if they don't want to instinctively.
Speaker 4 (46:22):
Yeah, I take a position that I, in fact I'm
empathetic towards our young people. I feel like a lot
of that has I say, parents have a huge responsibility
in this, uh and so part of that is the
product of the upbringing. Sometimes we adults have minute that
(46:43):
same behavior that they're copying, and even as a parent
of young kids, have to very purposeful. You ensure that
I'm not on my phone all the time whenever I'm home,
and so we have to be intention of putting those
boundaries when they can't use the cell phone, when not
to use the cell phone.
Speaker 2 (46:57):
As we raise the next generation of leaders.
Speaker 1 (47:00):
Let me give you the last word, David Jay, and
ask you this question. If someone is listening to this
and saying, well, you know, I have five hundred friends
on social media, but yeah, I do feel lonely sometimes,
what would be the one piece of advice you would
give that person about how they can break out of
that loneliness.
Speaker 3 (47:17):
So, the one thing that fever Merchan talked about earlier
is they between socializeolation and loneliness. Socialationally, it's not having friends.
Loneliness is not having agency over your relationships, not being
able to evolve them in the way that you want to.
You can have a lot of friends, but if they're
not fitting your life, then you need a way to
(47:38):
create and evolve the relationships you have. So I would
say my one piece of advice approach your relationship with
intention the same way you think about dating, the same
way you think about having a career. Think about what
are the intentional steps you're taking to build a really
thriving community that helps you grow and be the person
you want to be.
Speaker 7 (47:56):
Well.
Speaker 1 (47:57):
A great note to end on. David J. Author of
the book Relationality and Colorado Springs, Mayor Yemi Mobilade. Thank
you both so much for being here.
Speaker 2 (48:07):
Thank you so much for having me.
Speaker 3 (48:09):
It's fantastic to be here, Jeremy.
Speaker 1 (48:10):
Next week, we're going to be doing some thinking about
the election results and specifically examining what the Democrats need
to do to better reach working class Americans. I saw,
for example, that the very working class city of Fall River,
Massachusetts went for a Republican for the first time since
the nineteen fifties. So we're going to be joined by
the former Secretary of State of Missouri, Jason Candor, and
(48:31):
Jane Kleeb, who is the chair of the Nebraska Democratic Party.
That's next week. Of course, you can call us anytime
at eight four to four for Middle that is eight
four four four six four three three five three, or
you can reach out at Listen to the Middle dot
com and please, while you're there, sign up for our
free weekly newsletter. The Middle is brought to you by
Longnook Media, distributed by Illinois Public Media in Urbana, Illinois,
(48:51):
and produced by Harrison Patino, Danny Alexander, Sam Burmas, Dawes,
and John Barth. Our intern is on Akdesslar. Our technical
director is Jason croft thanks to our podcast audience and
the more than four hundred and twenty public radio stations
and serious XM that are making it possible for people
across the country to listen to the Middle. I'm Jeremy Hobson,
(49:12):
and I will talk to you next week.
The Middle is supported by Journalism Funding Partners, a nonprofit
organization striving to increase the sustainability of local journalism by
building connections between donors and news organizations. More information on
how you can support the Middle at Listen toothmddle dot com.
Welcome to the Middle. I'm Jeremy Hobson and I am
(00:21):
flying solo this week, not because we're doing a show
about loneliness, although that could be the reason. It's actually
because our house DJ Tolliver is off this week. He
will be back next week, and the only consolation is
that I get to announce we have new listeners this
week on Station WDET in Detroit, Michigan. So Welcome to
the Middle, and the topic this hour is loneliness. It
(00:44):
turns out it is so connected to so many other
issues in this country, technology, rapid social change, remote work, overwork, individualism, spirituality,
the pandemic, and political vision. The Surgeon General of the
United States has declared loneliness and epidemic. A pull from
(01:05):
the American Psychiatric Association this year found that one in
three Americans struggles with feelings of loneliness at least once
a week, and our loneliness problem affects just about everything,
including our productivity, our relationships, and of course our politics.
So our question to you this hour what can we
do about America's loneliness epidemic? The number to call is
(01:28):
eight four four four Middle. That is eight four four
four six four three three five three, or you can
write to us at Listen to the Middle dot com.
Let's meet our panel. Colorado Springs Mayor Yemmi Mobilatte is
with us. Earlier this year, that city specifically asked residents
to host parties and gatherings to get to know their
neighbors and combat loneliness. Mayor Mobilatte, Welcome to the Middle.
Speaker 2 (01:50):
Jeremy, it's a joy to be Onion Show. Thank yous
for having me.
Speaker 1 (01:53):
And joining us from Asheville, North Carolina. David Jay, author
of the book Relationality, How moving from transactional to transfertional
relationships can reshape our lonely world. David, great to have
you on the show as well.
Speaker 3 (02:05):
So fantasy to be here and great to be with you, Mary,
Jemmy and David.
Speaker 1 (02:11):
Before we get to the phones, actually, Mary Mavalatte, let
me ask you about that initiative I just mentioned, having
people host these gatherings and these parties in Colorado Springs.
What kind of an effect did that happen? Why did
you do that?
Speaker 4 (02:21):
Yeah, So I'm eighteen months into this incredible job as
mayor best job I've ever had, hardest job I've ever had,
And most civic leaders know that we're in the business of.
Speaker 2 (02:32):
Responding to public safety issues, and.
Speaker 4 (02:38):
My work is a lot of times it's responding after
things have happened, and I wanted to make sure that
we were also preventing issues, societal issues from happening. And
it turns out that mental health, like our collective mental
well being, is one of the best way to ensure
that we can pursue those upstream solutions.
Speaker 2 (02:58):
And we were also paying.
Speaker 4 (02:59):
Attention to the US Surgeon Journal General's report.
Speaker 2 (03:03):
He wrote a book on it.
Speaker 4 (03:04):
He has that ay two page report that lonland has
been the biggest epidemic. Next Door sponsored a studied I
showed that known as few as six of your neighbors
drastically improves your mental well being and reducing as anxiety.
Speaker 2 (03:20):
So, you know what, we decided to start a neighboring movement.
Speaker 4 (03:23):
Let's address one of the greatest crisis of our time
by just being a community of great neighbors. Let's build
a city of great neighbors and great neighborhoods by bringing
people together and around it to form meaningful connections.
Speaker 1 (03:35):
So that's about those in person connections. But David Jay,
a lot of people, when they think about loneliness will
probably turn their thoughts first to all the time we're
spending online on I guess so called social media, even
though often it could be rather anti social. But how
do you think the increasing use of technology and social
media plays into the loneliness epidemic?
Speaker 3 (03:58):
So I think technology can be a beautiful way to connect,
but a lot of times social media is part of
the problem. I work a lot with these social media companies.
You used to go into the Facebook offices New York
and it would say we connect people in giant letters
by the elevators. But actually what they're doing is optimizing
for engagement. They want people to spend time on their phones,
(04:20):
not to spend time with one another. And when companies
are really precisely engineering to get people to look away
from one another and towards our phones, it's only serving
to make us lonely. Relationships happen in small places where
people who get us show up on a regular basis,
places like the kind of neighborhood parties you're talking about, Mariyami.
(04:41):
And there is technology out there that helps us build
those places, it's just not as profitable. So the technology
that most of us are seeing is built on a
really different model that is not helping us form relationships
most of the time.
Speaker 1 (04:54):
Yeah, as I was getting ready for this show, I
was just thinking about social media in particular as something
that is relatively new to us us as a society,
and yet completely unnatural for us to be spending that
much time just looking at a device and interacting with
technology as opposed to with another human being. Mayor Ba Balade.
As we have this conversation, we know that an historically
(05:14):
low number of Americans are involved in religion. You actually
started a church in Colorado Springs. What kind of effect
does that have on loneliness, that lack of that kind
of community, both in terms of the physical gathering and
the spiritual connection that people may have.
Speaker 2 (05:32):
That's a great question.
Speaker 4 (05:33):
And I know you both are familiar with the concept
of blue zones and the regions in our country that
people live longer, right.
Speaker 2 (05:44):
Yeah, I live longest.
Speaker 4 (05:45):
When you study you look at those factors, spirituality is
one of them. In fact, I've been I've given the
pastors in my community the charge to encourage people to return,
come back to choice because since COVID, people stop attending
churches and started watching online and in terms of that's
(06:05):
not enough even in terms of your spiritual development. When
you take away the community aspect of spirituality, that really
has a huge impact on our quality of living. And
so terms out that spirituality, I don't I don't really
care which whatever it looks like.
Speaker 2 (06:22):
But being a part of a spiritual community.
Speaker 4 (06:25):
When you study the world, places that live that are
healthiest and lived the longest, spirituality is a big part
of it. So that's one of the strategies that we
look to we're looking at in our city. We also
call them third places, gathering places, third spaces. When you're
not at work and you're not at home, where are
these third places in the community where people gather and
(06:47):
that also helps froster social connection, and churches are a
great places for third spaces.
Speaker 1 (06:54):
I think the other secret in the blue zones is
often olive oil, very good olive oil. Maybe island and
Italy Ace. Let me ask you one more thing, David
Jay before we go to the funds and they are
lighting up right now. You write in your book Relationality
that loneliness is like a lack of sleep or lack
of exercise, but the harm stretch from a breakdown in
(07:15):
our individual cells to a breakdown in our democracies. Explain
what you mean by that.
Speaker 3 (07:21):
So I did a lot of research into just how
many things are impacted by our capacity for a healthy relationship,
and I think rather than talking about loneliness, I want
to just talk about how many things get better when
we form healthy relationships. Our mental health, our physical health,
our educational outcomes, creativity. There's research that shows that there's
(07:42):
almost nothing better for economic mobility. We get scientific breakthroughs
with better relationships, and there's a lot of research that
shows that the health of our democracies is really tied
to exactly may Yemi, you were talking about how well
we know our neighbors, we feel like we're in community.
In the messiness of community really bubbles up to the
(08:06):
difference between democracy and what a lot of people monitoring
democracy around the world are concerned about now, is authoritarianism good?
Speaker 1 (08:17):
Very interesting point and of course ties into the things
that we've been covering for many, many months. Now let's
go to the phones, and again you can reach us
at eight four four for middle that's eight four four
four six four three three five three. Ryan is in Pittsburgh, Pennsylvania. Ryan,
welcome to the middle.
Speaker 5 (08:33):
Go ahead.
Speaker 6 (08:35):
Thank you so much for doing this topic tonight. There
are millions of people sitting alone with these exact concerns,
and you're doing a great public service by addressing this issue.
I'd like to share an anecdote as a former teacher
of fifteen years related directly to this. I started teaching
before smartphones came out in two thousand and seven. I
(08:56):
recently left the profession, so I've sort of seen a
change over that day eight and a half. One of
the things that stands out most pronouncedly is that with
the introduction of smartphones, we started seeing an increasing number
of middle and high schoolers turning to social media and
dating apps to find what they believed was more ideal interactions,
(09:17):
more ideal or more attractive people to date, people who
had more exact political or social perspectives on the world.
And we tried communicating with these children life is about
developing relationships with people who aren't in exact match. You'll
never find an exact match. And I'm very concerned that
(09:38):
the younger generations believed, or I'm sorry, believe that highly
personalized matches exist out there. One young lady that I
had a one on one conversation with, she had declining
mental health and we asked her what's going on, and
she said, well, I don't really have any friends here.
All my friends are online. In fact, my best friend
(09:59):
is in order. And well, why don't you make friends
with your neighbors? What about the people in the lunch room,
what about the people in the classroom in there? And
and she said, well, they have a different opinion than me,
or they are somehow different from me. And you know,
life is all about compromises and finding middle ground with
people who are not exactly like you. And I just
(10:21):
feel like social media is sending an antithetical message about
what life is going to really be like.
Speaker 1 (10:29):
Ryan, Thank you so much for that. David Jay sort
of that I guess that search for perfection because you
have access to everybody out there as opposed to just
the people around you, I will say.
Speaker 3 (10:40):
I grew up in the LGBT community. One of the
things that was really beautiful there was that there was
the sense that you didn't need to perfectly match someone,
You just needed them to get some part of you
that maybe the rest of the world didn't get. And
once that was true, once you had that aaew of connection,
(11:01):
it was almost good for them to be different, right.
It was good to be connected to people who really
come from different perspective, different life experience, so long as
we have that thread that we can connect around. And
so a lot of my relational life has been finding
all these different communities where I connect deeply around different
facets of myself, rather than trying to find a person
or community that matches me exactly. And I also say,
(11:24):
what you were talking about phones is really important. I'm
in involved with the organization fair Play that's campaign for
phone free schools. I think that figuring out how we
can have some distance from this technology it creates space
where people connect is really important.
Speaker 7 (11:38):
You know.
Speaker 1 (11:38):
It's interesting the idea of taking phones out of schools
is actually something that we've seen on both the Republican
side and the Democratic side. Leaders in both parties seem
to be on board with that. I just want to
mention that John in Chicago is writing to us saying
you need to know the other side of the lonely
coin is the selfish, self centered, uninterested, board unfocused side.
(12:00):
If you don't volunteer, you don't give of yourself, if
you don't just step up and volunteer, then your selfishness
makes you become lonely. Loneliness is a prison of your
own making. You can write to us at Listen to
the Middle dot com and we'll be right back with
more of your calls on the Middle. This is the Middle.
I'm Jeremy Hobson. If you're just tuning in the Middle
as a national call in show, we are focused on
(12:21):
elevating voices from the middle geographically, politically, philosophically, or maybe
you just want to meet in the middle. This hour,
we're asking you what can we do to solve America's
loneliness epidemic. The number to call in is eight four
four four Middle. That is eight four four four six
four three three five three, or you can write in
at Listen to the Middle dot com. I'm joined by
(12:42):
Colorado Springs Mayor Yemi Mobilad and David Jay, author of relationality.
How moving from transactional to transformational relationships can reshape our
lonely world. Before we get back to the phones, the
US Surgeon General VIVEC. Murphy, as we said, has characterized
this as an epidemic. Here is in a public service
announcement about loneliness.
Speaker 8 (13:04):
Loneliness is far more than just a bad feeling. Being
socially disconnected, which can range from feeling alone to being isolated,
is bad both for individual and societal health. Research shows
that loneliness and isolation are associated with a greater risk
of heart disease, dementia, stroke, depression, anxiety, and premature debt.
(13:25):
In fact, lacking connection can increase the risk of premature
death the levels comparable to smoking daily.
Speaker 1 (13:33):
That is just unbelievable, mayor Mobiladae. What can the government
do to combat loneliness aside from what you have already
talked about doing in Colorado Springs and getting people to
just get together with their neighbors.
Speaker 4 (13:47):
Well, that data point of the health risk of loneliness
as bad as smoking.
Speaker 2 (13:52):
Fifty sears to days is alarming.
Speaker 4 (13:56):
I mean, one of the first things we can do
as government leaders and c leaders is that we have
a bully popit. We we have a mic, a constant
mic in front of us, So I get to help
sound the alarm on that on that data point and
the risk of if we continue to go that route.
And here's the thing, Jeremy and David, I know you
(14:17):
both get this, but a lot of the root cause
of our societal crisis, whether it's domestic abuse, teenage suicide, homelessness,
they all and more, they all stem from an unhealthy
mind and a lot of it is connected to the
epidemic of loneliness. As government leaders, one of the things
I've tried to do too as a government leader, one
of the things I've tried to do is to connect
(14:37):
the problem with the solution and to also show that
when we go upstream and tackle these issues, by the way,
it saves the city money, believe it or not. So
one of the areas, as as as mayor, I have
to addresses my code with my code enforcement team. So
when homes are look abandoned and the yard is overgrown,
(14:59):
I mean there's somebody, yeah, typically lives there that is lonely.
So as we've activated a city of great neighbors, the
stories that are coming out of this movement, just unbelievable.
People are going, I had no idea. So as they
meet the fellow neighbors, guess what, neighbors are getting to
know each other. Neighbors are now taking ownership of their
own neighborhood flourishing, and guess what, I don't have to
(15:21):
send code enforcement to that home to take care of
that abandoned look at home. The benefits are many, but
it takes the courage of government leaders saying traditionally, my
work is responding to issues. You know what, this time,
we're going to go upstream and take this crisis and
this act called action seriously.
Speaker 1 (15:41):
And David, that's on the government side. You I know,
have worked a lot with private companies on this issue.
What role does the private sector play in combating the
loneliness epidemic, even aside from just social media companies.
Speaker 3 (15:56):
So I think it's really interesting because they're really magic
things that can happen when you switch from being transactional
to being relational, from building an audience to investing in
a community. So I think about the impact on the
entertainment industry of having a really robust fan community. I
think about the impact in real estate of having a
thriving local community. It's not that there isn't a strong
(16:20):
economic benefit to investing in relationships between people. It's not
that we don't know how to do that. It's that
often companies have to release control a little bit. They
have to release control to the communities they're building, and
they're uncomfortable doing that. But when I've seen companies be
able to do that successfully, they can make really extraordinary
(16:42):
creative things happen.
Speaker 1 (16:45):
Let's go to Eugene, who's in White Marsh, Maryland's Eugene.
Welcome to the middle, Go ahead, Bhi.
Speaker 9 (16:52):
I just wanted to say on this particular issue. It's
a great issue to talk about, but you have you
can have a person that's married or have a or
from a boyfriend and they can feel lonely. And you
can have a single person that doesn't have a you know,
a spouse and they never feel they never feel lonely.
I think a lot has to do. It starts internally.
(17:12):
I think when you find joy in doing things, whether
it's exercising, whether it's reading books, when you find joy,
I think you're gonna feel happy and you're gonna naturally
gravitate towards people that I like you, and yes, that
can happen in church as well, But I really think
you have to it starts internally. I don't think.
Speaker 10 (17:31):
I don't think you.
Speaker 9 (17:32):
Can define your joy or your feeling of self worth
from connection or or or needing to connect with somebody
and make that the paramount. Uh, you know what way
to determine how happy you are? I think I think
it starts internally and then from internal I think you
make you make connections, But but you have to have
(17:52):
happiness within yourself first.
Speaker 1 (17:54):
Uh, Eugene, you sound like somebody who's figured it out.
Then you do you not feel lonely very much?
Speaker 7 (18:00):
Well?
Speaker 9 (18:00):
I think for me, I can't give myself any credit.
I think for me, from a spiritual point of view,
I think you have to have a belief system where
you you you believe in something other than yourself or
other than what human beings can do. And I think
when you're connected to just feeling that there's a lot
a lot of things you can't control. But the one
thing that you do have a certain amount of control
(18:21):
over is is how you approach things. You know things happen,
and so when you when you have those bad days
and look we've all had them. I've had them too.
I try and reflect and and see what my role was.
But also know too that you know the sun, the
sun is gonna come out tomorrow. Me bad days are
going to happen and the good days are going to happen.
(18:41):
And I think we have to keep that in mind,
whether whether the storms and you and you will have
the day, but you're going to have bad days.
Speaker 1 (18:49):
Eugene, thank you very much for that. Mayorm of a
lot of your thoughts on Eugene's points there.
Speaker 4 (18:54):
Well, I one of the things I'd like to point
out is it's it's okay, I'm gonna deviate a little
bit from from this point. But I don't know if
you guys have heard of the phrase lone wolves die,
And you know, I know that the when we talk
about loneliness, it's really it that's that looks different for
everyone to Eugene's point, But the essence and the crux
(19:19):
of this, this conversation and the meat of it is
the same that lone wolves died, you know that, And
that phrase the means that that humans, by nature, we
are biologically the adapted.
Speaker 2 (19:33):
To live in content in the context of community with
other people and whatever that looks like.
Speaker 4 (19:40):
If we don't have that, that leads to this, you know,
maybe not physical death like in the wild, but there
is a there is an element of death within us. So,
whether that's that community, whether it's your colleagues at work,
whether it's you, it's in a dane relationship, a marriage,
will relationship, parents on child, neighbors. I just think the
(20:04):
essence of that is we are wired to live in
the context of community.
Speaker 1 (20:07):
About are you saying, where are we pack animals? Like dogs?
Speaker 2 (20:10):
We are?
Speaker 4 (20:11):
That's something else. I so something else. I wanted to say,
humans are pack animals. I mean truly, we are biologically
disposed to just be in relationship with other people's and
that's how we conquer, That's how we Yeah.
Speaker 1 (20:26):
Kaylan is on the line from Sisters Oregon. Kaylan, welcome
to the middle, go ahead.
Speaker 11 (20:32):
Hey, thank you, And full disclosure. I used to work
for David at Center for Humane Technology. I divid. I
run a community building nonprofit in my community, and I
wanted to first just acknowledge the focus on neighborhoods. I
think that's something that we've really been honing in on
as well, even in a small town like ours of
(20:54):
thirty four hundred people were realizing that, you know, it's
easy to slip through the cracks, and especially for the
most vulnerable, it can be hard to build community. And
one of the ways that we're trying to bring those
people out and create a first point of contact is
by going almost to like a micro level of community building,
focusing on neighborhoods. We have a program where we similar
(21:15):
to what the mayor was sharing in Colorado Springs, we
offer one hundred and fifty dollars stipends to people who
want to host their own block party or neighborhood gathering
as a way of just getting to know that first
space in your community. What's better place than when you
walk out your front door to check the mail or
something like that. But even with all of our programs,
my question is, we know that no matter what events
(21:35):
we host, the people that are most vulnerable to social
isolation are the ones that are least likely to show up.
And so if we're really trying to move the needle
on this, how do we reach the people that we
know are the most prone to social isolation and loneliness.
How do we convince them that it is worth not
being lonely.
Speaker 1 (21:56):
Let's take that to your former colleague, David Jay. David,
how do you reach the people who are the least
likely to connect in that way?
Speaker 3 (22:05):
First of all, great to hear from your Kellen, and
I want to just really congratulate one thing you said,
which is there was a dollar sign in there. I
think one of the really important things when it comes
to addressing loneliness is it's not that we don't know
what to do, it's that we don't resource the people
who do this work, the people, places and practices, And
(22:25):
so I'm just really grateful that you and also you Maymi,
you're helping support this really really critical work. And I
think the question of how to invite people out of loneliness,
building those spaces, building those block parties is a really
important first step. And then I think it becomes okay,
how do we have a wide range of these local
gatherings and think about how to meaningfully invite people into them,
(22:49):
whether it's a local game store that someone can show
up too that's really welcoming, or a church or a
music group that is appealing to someone who's elderly. Having
that range and then thoughtfully extending there's invitations is really important,
Mary Amy your thoughts.
Speaker 4 (23:04):
Yeah, I also want to follow up with Collins and comment.
One of the things that our churches did was, I
tell you we had a benefactor in town who gave
a good sum of money that we used to activate
that we gave to churches as an incentive for them
to give money to hosts to be able to host
(23:24):
neighborhood gatherings.
Speaker 2 (23:26):
And with that, with that, with the funding that we received,
we had stickers and T shirts.
Speaker 4 (23:30):
But one of the most important things tools that we
used were magnets that sat on people's that were on
people's fridges, and then on magnets your house is in
the middle, and then around it the different homes around you,
but they're blank.
Speaker 2 (23:45):
And the exercise was to try to write the names
of your neighbors. So if you can equip the host
with the tools to actually take the lead, that that
really moves the needles.
Speaker 4 (23:56):
So a lot of our hosts took it seriously and
began to invite neighbors that were living in a neighborhood.
Speaker 2 (24:02):
Even sometimes some of the most isolated neighbors.
Speaker 4 (24:05):
They took the lead and knocking the door and say, hey,
we're having a neighborhood party, and sometimes they have to say,
I'm really embarrassed. I've lived in this neighbors for ten
years and I don't know your name. Would you and
would you be willing to come to our neighborhood gathering?
And they was surprised to see how many people actually responded.
This is one of the most consistent things we heard
over and over where people actually came. We surprised people
(24:26):
actually came.
Speaker 1 (24:27):
So we're talking there about neighbors in their houses. Listen
to this comment from Jim who wrote into us from Taos,
New Mexico, who says, we have decimated our cities and
our neighborhoods and our communities in order to make room
for cars. It is cars and the community design that
results from car culture that keeps us separated. That actually
is something that has come up in a number of
articles I've read about loneliness. I go to you, David
(24:50):
jay On that how does car culture fit into this
problem in this country?
Speaker 3 (24:57):
So part of how we formallyationship is just a matter
of statistics, right, How many people are we interacting with
every day? How many little moments of shared interaction do
we have that could turn into relationship, and cars just
cut off a lot of those moments. They keep us
isolated and we move around. They result in communities that
(25:17):
are parking lots rather than parks, where we are driving
rather than walking down the sidewalk. So I think they
just remove so much of the context where we can
meet new people or interact with people we already know.
Speaker 1 (25:32):
Amelia is with us from ann Arbor, Michigan. Amelia, welcome
to the middle.
Speaker 12 (25:36):
Go ahead.
Speaker 13 (25:38):
Well, I was very isolated for a very long time
in my life, but in the last year, I've found
a third place and I've started sitting at a bar
once a week, which has been more effective for me
and my happiness than years and years of therapy. And
I've been trying to make more connection with people, but
(26:01):
I'm often finding that other people aren't necessarily reflecting effort
back at me. And I think part of the reason
why being at the bar was helpful wasn't the social
interaction itself, but that it recalibrated my sense of like
what was normal, because I think people get such a
(26:23):
filtered version of you know, everyone's curated life on social media.
Online we see all these people who are perfect and
we can never live up to that expectation, and so
people are afraid to share themselves because they know that
they're not perfect any connection at all.
Speaker 1 (26:41):
You mean a third place besides your home or your office, Yes, right,
and you find that that is different enough that it's
that's important for you.
Speaker 13 (26:50):
To have that in your life very much so, yes.
Speaker 1 (26:54):
Okay, Amelia, thank you for that. Mary mel Alata, what
do you think about that? Having this whether it's a
bar or a coffee shop or the you know, the
neighborhood park or something like that, a place where you
can interact with people in a way that I guess
is not as structured as it would be in your workplace.
And often these days, if you go into a lot
of workplaces, there's nobody there because they're all working remotely.
Speaker 4 (27:16):
Amelia, I just want to comment and applaud your courage.
Well done, Love. I love your story and that's inspiring
to me too. What Amelia is talking about is very
near and dear to my leadership. Before becoming mayor, I'm
actually a small business owner. I created two third places
in my city. We actually call them Median houses. It
(27:38):
was our way of retelling the story of a third place,
A public house. In America, we know them as pubs.
We call them pubs. When you look at the origin
of pubs, there were public houses, there were third places.
There were public places where accidental collision happened. So these
are gathering places where people are moving about and surprised
(28:00):
that the conversation. Some of the best conversations I've had,
both as a customer and business owner is in third places.
So third places is a big part of the solution
when we talk about loneliness and social isolation.
Speaker 2 (28:14):
And that's the next campaign, that's one of the future
campaigns for us.
Speaker 4 (28:17):
We started with a thousand neighborhood gathering and we're having
conversations around promoting the more third places in the communities.
The bars, the cafes, the coffee shop, their churches, the barbershops.
But every one of them has a role to play
in terms of moving us from isolation back into a community.
So kudos Amelia.
Speaker 1 (28:36):
Let's go to Larissa who is in Aurora, Illinois. Larissa,
welcome to the middle. Tell us what you think.
Speaker 14 (28:45):
So one of the things that I have found throughout
my life is that I'm in the middle of a crowd.
So I'm at these social gatherings. I'm participating as a volunteer,
but I don't fit in. I'm being talked over, and
in some ways being out in those events and not
(29:08):
feeling seen is even worse. It makes loneliness even sharper.
And yeah, I think that people don't do a good
enough job listening. No, it's not just waiting for your
opportunity to talk, it's listening to other people who are there.
Speaker 1 (29:30):
Yeah, interesting point, David Jay, What do you think about that?
Speaker 3 (29:35):
First of all, I really hope for you that you
can find places where you do feel seen. I think
having a range of places out there and being able
to find places where a part of ourselves that feels
lonely can be seen is so so important. And I
think the point you make about listening is also really important.
A practice that has been and this also speaks to
(29:57):
an early practice that I think has been really powerful
for me, is just reflecting on what kind of relationship
am I excited to invite in my life? What what
am I curious about? Are there is there a particular
kind of person where if they start saying a life experience,
I'm gonna light up and let them know that I'm
excited to connect with them, because being ready to light
up connect with people, being ready, being ready, knowing who
(30:19):
we really are ready to listen to is a really
good way to know how to invite relationship into our
life again.
Speaker 1 (30:25):
Our number is eight four four four middle. That is
eight four four four six four three three five three.
I'd still love to hear from somebody gen Z on
this topic. We'll see if they call. Coming up on
the middle. This is the middle. I'm Jeremy Hobbson this hour,
we're asking you how can we solve America's loneliness epidemic?
You can call us an eight four four four middle.
That's eight four four four six four three three five three.
(30:47):
I'm joined by Colorado Springs mayor Jemmy Mobilade and author
David Jay. His book is called Relationality. And before we
go back to the phones, gentlemen, we hear a lot
about the lonely young man in this country, both the
problems they face and sometimes the problems they cause. The
psychiatrist Jordan Peterson, who's very influential and also very polarizing,
(31:07):
we should say, considers himself an advocate for young men.
Here he is in an interview with Piers Morgan.
Speaker 15 (31:14):
People have been after me for a long time by
because I've been speaking to disaffected young men. Now, what
a terrible thing to do that is. I thought the
marginalized we're supposed to have a voice. It's very difficult
to understand how demoralized people are, and certainly many young
men are in that category. All these men who are alienated,
(31:36):
it's like they're lonesome and they don't know what to
do and everyone piles abuse on them.
Speaker 1 (31:43):
By Baalade, how do you see the loneliness among young
men affecting our politics right now? And did it have
much to do with the reelection of Donald Trump.
Speaker 4 (31:55):
It's really hard to comment on what has contributed to
the reelection of Donald Trump because this last election cycle
has as really I felt the President elect pulled Republicans
and Independents and but that's a whole that's a whole
different story. But I know there is something called the
(32:15):
epidemic of male loneliness. We know that's a real thing.
I mean, and it starts with young men. And I
think what contributes to it It has to do with
what we're talking about. I think social media plays the
part in it, but also biology also plays a part
in it as well. I think as men, you know,
we we naturally have ego, and that even starts at
(32:37):
a young age. I think when women by and young
girls by nay job. I have a young daughter, say
even watching even watching my two young sons and that
social relationship with my young daughter, you can see young
girls naturally communicate. It's so fun to watch how they
come together, they talk to communicate.
Speaker 2 (32:55):
And as young men, it's it's just different.
Speaker 4 (32:57):
So some of it is biological and so, and then
you give them devices and that just makes it even worse.
Speaker 2 (33:04):
And so some of that is on us as parents,
so ensure.
Speaker 4 (33:07):
That we are teaching our young men to engage with
other with adults and other young men as well.
Speaker 1 (33:14):
David, what do you think is there's something different about
young men and loneliness versus other groups.
Speaker 3 (33:21):
Growing up? A lesson that I received is that masculinity
is about showing up. It's about knowing how to show
up with the people in our lives. It's about knowing
how to show up for the communities around us. And
it's been amazing. As I've done work across the political spectrum,
I've found people who that idea of masculinity really resonates
with then. So when I hear about this epidemic of loneliness,
(33:44):
I hear, Okay, here are people who want to be
showing up for people around them, for communities around them.
And maybe then I'd invite it. Maybe they don't know how.
And so I think it comes back to that question
of invitation. What are the spaces that these people can
invite it into to where they can do the showing
up they can do. I think the care that we
(34:06):
need to feel connected to the communities around us.
Speaker 1 (34:09):
Let's go back to the funds. You know, I ask
for young people and I get them. And here's an
eighteen year old Charles in Denver. Charles, welcome to the middle.
Speaker 16 (34:18):
Go ahead, hey there, thanks for having me on. I
was just listening to a previous point by I think
nave Is Amelia who said going out to the bar
once a week was incredibly helpful for encouraging her communication skills.
And I think that that's something that is kind of
(34:41):
overlooked a lot when it comes to improving one's vicinity
for social interaction. And that's that, you know, when you
initially think of that, you think of, oh, I have
to go out and I have to talk with other people,
and I think that that's you know, that's definitely part
of it. But another part of it is just being
in a place where there are other people, and that's
(35:02):
that's a bar, that's a coffee shop, that's the library,
that's school, And especially since COVID happened a couple of
years ago, everybody was inside. We had no reference point
of how to act in social situations, which leads to
people becoming more polarizing because they're thinking, oh, I'm different
(35:23):
in this way to this person. Therefore we might not
be able to form a relationship. And I think that
going out and just spending time and a place where
you can see other people interacting does really really well
for kind of mending that crack and understanding of how
people relate to each other.
Speaker 2 (35:43):
Do you find it.
Speaker 1 (35:44):
Do you find that your people who are your age,
your peers agree with you about that that it's not
all about life online and that you should go out
and interact with people in person.
Speaker 16 (35:57):
I have a very different view than a lot of people.
I mean, I bring that up quite a lot, and
I'm I'm I myself don't have social media. I think
that it really does not yet. It's not through wonders
for any part of my life, and it only hindered it.
So I deleted all of it, like many years ago,
(36:20):
and I encourage a lot of my friends to do
the same, but they they don't because that's how that's
how they think that they're connecting with other people. And
I say think because I don't think that that's connecting
with other people. And when I point that out, they
they think I think that they obviously I can see that.
(36:42):
I think that it's it's it's pretty difficult to be like, well,
i'm talking to this person technically not really.
Speaker 1 (36:49):
Right, Charles, thank you so much, A really really great
point there. I want to go to an email that's
come in from Marine in Chicago who says, I lived
in my neighborhood for three years and really very few
people until I got a dog. I've developed so many
relationships and I know what's going on in the neighborhood.
I mayor I totally agree with that. I think having
a dog you start talking to random people that you
(37:10):
would never before.
Speaker 4 (37:11):
Now that's absolutely tries to as someone who's on the
dog and also kids, I mean the great conversation started.
I mean, dogs play and the dog part kids play,
and then as as a parent and the owners stand there.
You know, it's it's natural to have a conversation because
you have something in common.
Speaker 2 (37:29):
So that's that's actually a wonderful strategy.
Speaker 1 (37:31):
Let's go to Rick, who's in Houston, Texas. Rick, welcome
to the middle Go.
Speaker 17 (37:36):
Ahead, Hey, thanks for taking my call. Yeah, so I
grew up in a traditional family, very rural area, siblings
and stay at home mother. She kept us community connected
to all the activities in the community. We now live
in a time where most families they don't have the
(37:57):
freedom to economically have someone at home who's keeping people connected.
The geographic area of the United States is amazingly large,
and therefore the it's economic area is also very large.
And there's so many opportunities that come and sometimes the
right opportunity just what you can find and what works
(38:18):
well for your career and your talents. It pulls you
very far away from the community you grew up in,
and and.
Speaker 7 (38:24):
Most people.
Speaker 18 (38:27):
Small communities feed large cities. Cities are monsters that eat
small communities resources. And we're all many of us are
disconnected from where we came from. Conversely, when I often
go to Ireland, I see people who are geographically locked
within their culture that they may choose to stay in
in the European area economic area. But oftentimes when I'm
(38:49):
going from the airport on a bus to the hotel,
I see these pockets of communities located with co located
with a school and a grocery store, and they walk
everywhere with their children.
Speaker 1 (39:00):
So just the just the sheer size of the cities.
And of course you're calling from Houston, which is so big, uh,
and it goes on for such a long stretch, uh,
mayor Maamlade. What do you think about that? Just the
the size, the lack of walkability in many of these places.
Speaker 4 (39:17):
I mean, yeah, I And by the way, I have
family in Houston as well, and I was just there
over Thanksgiving.
Speaker 2 (39:22):
So I I I as a as.
Speaker 4 (39:25):
A city official, I think of city design plays of
fact in it.
Speaker 2 (39:30):
We were talking earlier about the role of cars.
Speaker 4 (39:34):
I think this is how neighborhood designs are really important.
City design is, and how how walkable is your your
city As you think about designing a city around people
walking in masses of people, When you think.
Speaker 2 (39:47):
About neighborhoods and building homes.
Speaker 4 (39:50):
We is a focus on garages or is a focus
on front porch. My wife and I have intentionally chosen
to live in the more historic part of the city
because it's got front porches. So the focus is not
the garage where people pull into the garage, you know.
Speaker 2 (40:07):
The focus is the front point. We get to sit
on our front porch, we get to park on the
street because we want that accidental collision.
Speaker 4 (40:14):
We want to be able to talk to our neighbors,
because it's possible to live next to your next door
neighborhood and not even know who they are. And so
I do think that has a role to play. I
am proud of the developers and the buildings in my
city that are actually building homes that are mimicking the
homes from the eighteen late eighteen hundreds and early the.
Speaker 1 (40:33):
Front porch, but the front ports like it's like New
Orleans in the middle of Colorado.
Speaker 4 (40:38):
Yes, we're seeing a return even in terms of how
we think about design.
Speaker 2 (40:44):
So that's that's a very important piece of it.
Speaker 1 (40:46):
That's interesting, David, David, your thoughts.
Speaker 3 (40:50):
Yeah, And I want to tease that one thing you
mentioned that I think is really really important, which is transitions,
these moments when people move. It's not that moving me
that were lonely. Whether or not we move, we're going
to go through really significant transitions in our life, whether
it's graduating college or tiring having your first kid. And
often these transitions when the strategy we used to use
(41:11):
to build relationships no longer work or tire, when people
sort of fall off and become lonely. So thinking about
the extra support we can give people when they go
through these critical moments and transitions that's sort of welcoming
into a new place or a new phase of life,
is I think one really important part of how we
can bat loneliness.
Speaker 1 (41:26):
Amy is in Pittsburgh. Amy, Welcome to the middle.
Speaker 12 (41:29):
Go ahead, Hello, Yes, Yes, I called in as I
was remarking that often when they're are community events, I've
been one of those people who doesn't show up and
I don't go. And I was just thinking about something
(41:54):
that I did on purpose because I was just dreading loneliness.
In particular, a very high stakes night that happened in
early November, which you might guess what it is.
Speaker 18 (42:08):
Election night.
Speaker 12 (42:08):
I didn't want to be alone, so it was easier
for me to plan to go all the way to
Boston from Pittsburgh to be with someone who I'm very
close with there to watch the election, because I just
thought it's almost like if it was a holiday, you
don't want to be alone. So I did that. And
what you may find interesting is that, well, my friend
(42:33):
actually was working on election day. So I particularly went
out and I went on to the Freedom Trail and
the end of my evening was to end at a tavern,
particularly where the Founding Fathers had been colluding for the revolution,
and I thought this would be really interesting. I'll go
there and talk to people.
Speaker 13 (42:53):
And I was.
Speaker 12 (42:58):
At two places. You know, they had a policy it
was no talking about the election, not to be talked about.
Speaker 19 (43:07):
Isn't that funny.
Speaker 1 (43:08):
You were trying to you were trying to not be lonely,
and they wouldn't let you. There was a policy that
said you couldn't do it. Amy, thank you for thank
you for calling and telling us that.
Speaker 7 (43:18):
Let me.
Speaker 1 (43:18):
Let me get to Robert, who's in Raleigh, North Carolina. Hi, Robert,
welcome to the middle Go ahead.
Speaker 5 (43:23):
Hey, hey, how you doing so? Yeah, I'm a technical
director in theater and I spent God, four good years,
uh teaching at a small college outside of d c
uh College of Southern Maryland, and uh, the person I
worked for was just a savant. He kind of powerhouse,
(43:46):
and you know I.
Speaker 19 (43:48):
Heard people talking about the community. Uh what is it
the community programs and stuff. He would not only you know,
we do shows as per normal, but like the the
way that he would just hurt the kids.
Speaker 20 (44:01):
Into community events kind of effortlessly, even if it was
you know, hey, we're doing the kids show. Can y'all
go down and do like half of it like at
this you know barbecue thing like and just kind of
you know, being present in the community kind of allowed
the kids to kind of you know, reach out to
a bunch of different folks. And having a place like
(44:24):
to work is also kind of you know, cathartic, I guess,
because we you know, we don't turn people away if
you want to come make lollipops or candy canes. We
actually had a student who this girl showed up and
she just wanted to work. So we kind of all
worked together, and you know it was about three months.
(44:45):
You know, she wasn't in a department, she just you
know just kind of was around and come to find
out her father had actually passed away and she was
going through this whole thing, and she just wanted to
be with people. And she was like it was nice
to just come in and you know, kind of leave
her stuff at the door and be a part of something,
(45:06):
you know, you know, be a.
Speaker 1 (45:08):
Part of the community. Be a part of the community. There, Robert,
thank you for that. I'm gonna sneak one more call
in here. Tommy in Chicago is with us. Hi, Tommy,
go ahead.
Speaker 14 (45:21):
Hey.
Speaker 7 (45:21):
You know, I hear you guys talking about all these
social engagements for the young people, and I really applaud it.
My experience has been most of the young kids I
know are not wanting to engage. I work as a
dormant in the hotel downtown Chicago, and people are always
have their heads and their gadgets. I ask them if
they need directions. They look at me like I'm offending them.
(45:41):
They give them a cell phone and Google Maps and
they're Christopher Columbus.
Speaker 1 (45:44):
You know.
Speaker 7 (45:44):
It's like they don't want to interact with you.
Speaker 10 (45:46):
Oh I know where I'm going to leave me alone.
It's crazy.
Speaker 1 (45:49):
Yeah, So they're just not interested.
Speaker 10 (45:52):
They're not they feel like they have all the answers
that they need. Is how it feels to me, Why
am I gonna bother this human being here who knows
the city very well. So many times they'll turn left,
then they'll turn right, trying to get their cell phone orientation,
and I'm like, I'm here for you, but no they'd
rather use that.
Speaker 1 (46:09):
Yeah, well that would be me not having a good
sense of direction. Also, Tommy, thank you. Uh uh may
or mobilata your your thoughts on that just sort of
sometimes it's hard to coax people to actually interact with
the world if they don't want to instinctively.
Speaker 4 (46:22):
Yeah, I take a position that I, in fact I'm
empathetic towards our young people. I feel like a lot
of that has I say, parents have a huge responsibility
in this, uh and so part of that is the
product of the upbringing. Sometimes we adults have minute that
(46:43):
same behavior that they're copying, and even as a parent
of young kids, have to very purposeful. You ensure that
I'm not on my phone all the time whenever I'm home,
and so we have to be intention of putting those
boundaries when they can't use the cell phone, when not
to use the cell phone.
Speaker 2 (46:57):
As we raise the next generation of leaders.
Speaker 1 (47:00):
Let me give you the last word, David Jay, and
ask you this question. If someone is listening to this
and saying, well, you know, I have five hundred friends
on social media, but yeah, I do feel lonely sometimes,
what would be the one piece of advice you would
give that person about how they can break out of
that loneliness.
Speaker 3 (47:17):
So, the one thing that fever Merchan talked about earlier
is they between socializeolation and loneliness. Socialationally, it's not having friends.
Loneliness is not having agency over your relationships, not being
able to evolve them in the way that you want to.
You can have a lot of friends, but if they're
not fitting your life, then you need a way to
(47:38):
create and evolve the relationships you have. So I would
say my one piece of advice approach your relationship with
intention the same way you think about dating, the same
way you think about having a career. Think about what
are the intentional steps you're taking to build a really
thriving community that helps you grow and be the person
you want to be.
Speaker 7 (47:56):
Well.
Speaker 1 (47:57):
A great note to end on. David J. Author of
the book Relationality and Colorado Springs, Mayor Yemi Mobilade. Thank
you both so much for being here.
Speaker 2 (48:07):
Thank you so much for having me.
Speaker 3 (48:09):
It's fantastic to be here, Jeremy.
Speaker 1 (48:10):
Next week, we're going to be doing some thinking about
the election results and specifically examining what the Democrats need
to do to better reach working class Americans. I saw,
for example, that the very working class city of Fall River,
Massachusetts went for a Republican for the first time since
the nineteen fifties. So we're going to be joined by
the former Secretary of State of Missouri, Jason Candor, and
(48:31):
Jane Kleeb, who is the chair of the Nebraska Democratic Party.
That's next week. Of course, you can call us anytime
at eight four to four for Middle that is eight
four four four six four three three five three, or
you can reach out at Listen to the Middle dot
com and please, while you're there, sign up for our
free weekly newsletter. The Middle is brought to you by
Longnook Media, distributed by Illinois Public Media in Urbana, Illinois,
(48:51):
and produced by Harrison Patino, Danny Alexander, Sam Burmas, Dawes,
and John Barth. Our intern is on Akdesslar. Our technical
director is Jason croft thanks to our podcast audience and
the more than four hundred and twenty public radio stations
and serious XM that are making it possible for people
across the country to listen to the Middle. I'm Jeremy Hobson,
(49:12):
and I will talk to you next week.
Host
Jeremy Hobson
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