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August 22, 2024 • 48 mins

On this episode of The Middle we're asking you: How do you feel about your choices in this presidential election? We're joined by anchor and journalist Candy Crowley, and political commentator Charlie Sykes. The Middle's house DJ Tolliver joins as well, plus callers from around the country. #election #Trump #Harris #2024 #democrat #republican #vote

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Speaker 1 (00:05):
Welcome to a special edition of The Middle. I'm Jeremy
Hobson along with our house DJ Tolliver, who is from
the great City of Chicago, where the Democratic National Convention
has been happening in Tolliver as a born and raised
Illinoisan as well, I would just like to say, I
don't care what the haters say. Deep Dish pizza from
Chicago is delicious, Okay.

Speaker 2 (00:23):
And here's the thing, one slices like an entire meal,
so it's like economical and delicious.

Speaker 3 (00:28):
Indeed.

Speaker 1 (00:29):
Indeed, so because we are alive at a different time
than usual this week, I want to welcome new listeners
to the show. We're going to be taking your calls
this hour asking how you feel about your choices this election.

Speaker 3 (00:39):
A lot of.

Speaker 1 (00:40):
People told the posters polsters they were not happy when
it was Trump versus Biden. Now it is officially former
President Donald Trump and Ohio Senator jd Vance versus Vice
President Kamala Harris and Minnesota Governor Tim Walls. And there
are still other candidates in the race, including Independent Robert F.
Kennedy who is running alongside lawyer and Philantha Pisonical Shanahan.

(01:01):
So especially if you're in the political, geographic or philosophical middle.
How do you feel about your choices? Now, we're going
to get to your calls in a moment at eight
four four four middle. That's eight four four four six
four three three five three. But first, last week, we
talked about an issue that isn't getting much attention in
this election, even though it is rapidly becoming legal in

(01:23):
many states. That is medical aid in dying, a legal
right to die, especially for people facing terminal illness. Great
calls on the show, and great voicemails too.

Speaker 3 (01:33):
Here's what some of you had to say.

Speaker 4 (01:36):
Hi, this is Anita from Saint Georgi, Utah.

Speaker 5 (01:39):
My name is Electus and I'm calling from Annaburm, Michigan.

Speaker 6 (01:43):
Hello, my name is Brianna and I am calling from
Saint Paul, Minnesota.

Speaker 7 (01:48):
Hi.

Speaker 3 (01:48):
This is Chuck calling from Chicago.

Speaker 5 (01:51):
I think everyone deserves the option to make this choice
as long as they are of sound mind.

Speaker 6 (01:57):
I am concerned about people just choosing to take their
own lives, but if you.

Speaker 4 (02:01):
Have a terminal illness, you should be able to go
in whatever way you want.

Speaker 1 (02:06):
I would just like to suggest that our medical system
needs to be revamped.

Speaker 5 (02:10):
People that are seeking persisted suicide, it should be the
final option.

Speaker 6 (02:15):
I am a thirty four year old woman who has
provided hostas care for both my dad and for my grandmother,
and after watching what they both went through when the
end of life process, it was really horrific and they
deserved to be able to make choices for themselves that
allowed them to be the most comfortable possible.

Speaker 1 (02:33):
Well, thanks to everyone who called in, and you can
hear that entire episode on our podcast in partnership with
iHeart Podcasts on the iHeart app or wherever you listen
to podcasts.

Speaker 3 (02:41):
Now to our topic this hour. Your choice is in
this election?

Speaker 1 (02:45):
How do you feel about your options?

Speaker 3 (02:47):
Now? Tolliver, can you give them the number please?

Speaker 2 (02:50):
It's eight four four four Middle. That's eight four four
four six four three three five three or right to
us at Listen to the Middle dot com.

Speaker 1 (02:56):
Let's meet our panel from Glenn Arbor, Michigan anchor and
longtime journal as Candy Crowley. For years, she hosted State
of the Union on CNN and also served as the
network's chief political correspondent. Candy Crawley is so great to have.

Speaker 3 (03:07):
You on the Middle.

Speaker 4 (03:08):
Well, thank you for having me and.

Speaker 1 (03:10):
From Mechwin, Wisconsin. Charlie Sykes political commentator and journalists. You
can see him as a regular contributor on MSNBC and
read his work in the Atlantic. He's also author of
the book How the Right Lost Its Mind. Charlie, Great
to have you with.

Speaker 3 (03:22):
Us as well.

Speaker 8 (03:24):
Good to be with you.

Speaker 3 (03:25):
And before we get to the phones, Charlie Sykes.

Speaker 1 (03:26):
There are some elections where people say they're voting for
the lesser of two evils, They're voting against a candidate
rather than for when there are some where people are
so unenthusiastic that they don't vote at all, and there
are some where people are enthusiastically.

Speaker 3 (03:40):
Supporting a candidate.

Speaker 1 (03:41):
What does this twenty twenty four election look like to
you at this point?

Speaker 9 (03:45):
Well, this is where you see the big transformation, because
I think there was a lot of grittier teeth, sort
of grim death march going into November when it was
going to be Biden versus Trump. I think a lot
of Americans thought, we look, you have you know, several
hundred million people here, and we have these two Jerry
theatric candidate. So we had a lot of double haters.
The big transformation that I've seen in the last several

(04:06):
weeks has been that a lot of demoralized Democrats are
coming home, that they're much more enthusiastic. And this is
something that we haven't really seen in a very, very
long time, the kind of the energy now. Look, Donald
Trump was able to tap into some of the energy
in his early days, but the shift in mood of

(04:27):
Democrats is really extraordinary. Just as a footnote here, the
fact that last night they were able to fill up
two NBA arenas in Chicago and Milwaukee was really extraordinary
because you can't manufacture that. There's no campaign that is
organized enough they can get that many people to turn out,

(04:48):
and so something's going on on the Democratic side that
was not happening a month ago.

Speaker 3 (04:54):
Candy Coley, you've covered so many elections.

Speaker 1 (04:55):
You moderated a debate in twenty twelve between Barack Obama
and Mitt rom What do you think?

Speaker 3 (05:00):
What does this election look like to you at this point?

Speaker 4 (05:04):
You know, in a word, evolving. You know, I don't
think we are where we're going to be, and that
has been true since President Biden decided to bow out.
So I think where we are actually is still a
pretty close race.

Speaker 3 (05:17):
I think it is.

Speaker 4 (05:18):
Obviously the poles have swung, but they're still and so
when you see them, she is maybe two points ahead
here and three points ahead there and even here, but
they're generally all but one of them I've seen, or
within the margin of era, which means may or may
not be a two point lead, right, it could be
a minus one point. So I think we still have

(05:42):
what we had, uh probably with Joe Biden, will never know,
but which is a very close race which is going
to depend not on the people who show up in
those giant as, either for Trump or for Harris, but
in the people sitting at home going huh, not really
what I'm going to do? And that's what the next

(06:02):
what seventy five seventy six days is about?

Speaker 10 (06:04):
Right?

Speaker 1 (06:05):
And then of course there are some big events coming up,
including a debate. As someone who moderated a debate, what
did you think about the fact that the debate between
Biden and Trump basically ended Biden's campaign and his fifty
plus year career in politics.

Speaker 4 (06:19):
You know, well, first of all, just as a you know,
fellow human being, I think it's and as an aging
fellow human being, as all of us are, I thought
it was sad, but it sort of tells you what
you don't know about debates. Like if you talk to
folks that are running campaigns, they'll say, well, the debates
rarely make a difference. You know, they'll point to somebody

(06:43):
who says, you know, Poland, I guess it was Gerald
Ford who said that Poland was under Russian influ or
Soviet influence, et cetera, et cetera. But they'll say they
rarely make a difference. The problem is they're very organic.
You never really know what's going to happen. So the
possibility of changing things is all always there. And clearly
that was a debate that changed things. Not so much

(07:04):
for the questions or you know, any clashes between them,
but between the just the performance of a single man.

Speaker 1 (07:12):
Let's get to the phones that people are calling in.
Maria is in Harrisburg, Ana, Maria, welcome to the middle.

Speaker 3 (07:19):
Go ahead. What do you feel about your choices this election?

Speaker 11 (07:23):
Well, I have been voting for a long time. I
am a seventy year old Mexican American woman, and I
was very concerned about Biden's age and Trump. I don't
like Trump, so anyways to have a younger person, including
a woman of color, and more than that, a woman.

(07:44):
I'm beyond thrilled, and I'm actually willing to help out
with friends so that we can do something so I
can say that I was part of this movement. And
the other thing is my son is a journalist in Charlottesville, Virginia,
a political journalist, and a ninety five year old woman
called him and told him she prays that she lives

(08:05):
long enough to vote for Kamala and he the first
woman president.

Speaker 1 (08:11):
Well, and you, Maria, are in a swing state of Pennsylvania,
one that is still even in the polls with Harris
versus Trump very close. Are are you seeing this reaction
among your neighbors or is it pretty split?

Speaker 11 (08:27):
It's pretty split. Actually, I've lost a thousand friends over
the situation. So we're putting up signs. So I'll put
up two and then my neighbor will put it four.
We have someone that we called q and On Debbie,
and qan On Debbie puts like fifty signs up.

Speaker 8 (08:44):
Wow.

Speaker 11 (08:45):
So yeah, yeah, Well, Maria, dude, we are split.

Speaker 1 (08:49):
You're split, Maria, Thank you so much for that. Called
Charlie Sykes. I imagine we're going to be hearing from
a lot of people who bring up this that like
sort of know, uh, enthusiasm about Biden, and now they
feel not just like voting for Harris, but that she
wants to work for Harris.

Speaker 9 (09:06):
Well, see, this is what it's always hard to suss out,
is you know, what's the sugar high and what's real.
I mean, Candy is absolutely right when she says that
the election.

Speaker 8 (09:16):
Is not going to be decided by people who show
up at arenas.

Speaker 9 (09:19):
On the other hand, it is certainly a leading indicator
when you have when you have this kind of engagement.
Look at this small donor reaction, the organic social media reaction,
the people were calling up and were volunteering. In twenty sixteen,
Donald Trump won the state of Wisconsin by about twenty

(09:40):
thousand votes. If Hillary Clinton had got the same number
of votes in Milwaukee County the Barack Obama had gotten,
she would have won the state comfortably by about twenty
thousand votes.

Speaker 8 (09:52):
So when it comes to this kind of this kind.

Speaker 9 (09:54):
Of enthusiasm, it does affect turnout, it does affect engagement.
And this is the thing that we didn't have. But
we didn't have this kind of engagement up until now.

Speaker 8 (10:05):
So yes, the polls are still close.

Speaker 9 (10:07):
Of course, Uh, keep in mind the poles are snapshots
that the directional arrow is the key thing. But also
sometimes I think poles have a hard time picking up
the full level of intensity of support. So one of
the reasons why I think sometimes in the midterm elections
you'll see some kind of surprises because these races in

(10:29):
all the key swing states, including Wisconsin, Pennsylvania, and Michigan,
are you know based, you know, who can motivate the base,
who can get them out, who can get them engaged,
who's going to be willing to you know, call their
you know, call their neighbors, you know, talk to members
of their family, drive people to the polls, all of
that sort of thing. And then of course you have
this very very tiny and shrinking group of swing voters

(10:50):
as well.

Speaker 1 (10:52):
You know, we've been watching the conventions take place. They've
been a pretty big difference. It seems like in the
sort of the tone of each of these conventions. The Democrats,
you know, with Little John and others, it sort of
feels like a rock concert that's going on. But Tolliver, Chicago,
where the Democratic Convention is has hosted dozens of political
conventions since eighteen sixty dozens of them, and one that

(11:13):
always comes up is the very turbulent one back in
nineteen sixty eight.

Speaker 2 (11:17):
Yeah, that convention took place after the assassinations of Robert F.
Kennedy and Martin Luther King Junior, and in the midst
of the Vietnam War. Things got heated even inside the
convention that year. Here's longtime CBS anchor Dan Rather getting
rouffed up on the convention floor and.

Speaker 12 (11:31):
What's your name?

Speaker 13 (11:32):
Take your hands off of men unless you intend to
arrest me. Don't push me, please, we really want to
know you will, but don't push me.

Speaker 14 (11:38):
Take your hands off.

Speaker 13 (11:39):
I may unless you're planning to arrest me.

Speaker 10 (11:40):
Wait a minute, right a minute.

Speaker 13 (11:44):
Rot As you can see, I don't know what's going on,
but these are security people apparently around Dan.

Speaker 3 (11:51):
We're obviously getting rushed.

Speaker 13 (11:53):
I had to talk to them, man, and we got
bodily pushed out of the way. This is a conor
thing that's been going on outside, though this is the
first time we've had it up an inside the hull. Well,
I'm sorry to be out of bed that somebody felt
him in his stomach.

Speaker 1 (12:05):
As Dan Rather would say it was getting hotter in
there than the Laredo parking lot taller. What that's what
he used to have? All these ratherisms. There was another
one I looked up for this very moment in the show,
but it just didn't make any sense, and.

Speaker 3 (12:18):
So I just chose that one.

Speaker 1 (12:19):
Next week hotter, Yeah, exactly next time he said it
was tighter than a two small bathing suit and a
two hot car ride on the way home from the
beach or something like that.

Speaker 2 (12:28):
Wait, I heard a good one too. He looks like
a lost ball in high We there.

Speaker 3 (12:32):
You go, There you go. We will be right back
with more of the middle.

Speaker 1 (12:38):
This is the Middle. I'm Jeremy Hobson. If you're just tuning.
In the Middle is a national call in show. We're
focused on elevating voices from the middle geographically, politically, and philosophically.

Speaker 3 (12:47):
Or maybe you just want to meet in the middle.

Speaker 1 (12:49):
This hour, we're asking you, how do you feel about
your choices in this election?

Speaker 3 (12:53):
Tolliver, what is the number to call in?

Speaker 2 (12:54):
It's eight four four four Middle. That's eight four four
four six four three three five three. You can also
write to a Listen to the Middle dot com or
on social media.

Speaker 1 (13:02):
I'm joined by longtime CNN political correspondent Candy Crowley and
journalist and commentator Charlie Sykes. And before we get back
to the phones, Candy Crowley, you covered that incredibly close
race between Bush and Gore in two thousand. Bush was
declared the winner with a margin of five hundred and
thirty seven votes in the state of Florida, and there
was the third party candidacy of Ralph Nader that definitely

(13:23):
played some role in Florida. How consequential could the third
party candidacies be this year, especially Robert F. Kennedy Junior,
who is still polling between about two and seven percent.

Speaker 4 (13:35):
Right, you know, again, Charlie's right, these are snapshots in time.
But the latest we've seen is that Robert F. Kennedy
is beginning to go down in that thing. It depends
on what state you're talking about, right, if it's in
one of the blue Wall states or in state I think,
no matter how you look at it, and we've sort

(13:57):
of they've done all these sort of studies about it
and see that RFK tends to take away from both
of them pretty equally. I don't think it's the same
same as a parole or a nator. I think it
you know, unless it's in one of those, it's where
like it's a thousand votes and they go to the
third party, then you've got a problem.

Speaker 1 (14:16):
Charlie six, What do you think We've heard from a
lot of voters on this show over the last several
months who were not going to vote for Biden because
of Gaza or his age, and we're looking at Kennedy instead.
Is that still a big factor with Harris?

Speaker 8 (14:28):
Do you think, well, it might be. I mean Robert F.
Kennedy's campaign seems to be imploding.

Speaker 9 (14:34):
I mean his VP, you know, his VP running mate
is already suggesting that she might drop out of the
race and endorse Trump.

Speaker 8 (14:43):
I think that one of the things.

Speaker 9 (14:44):
Look, I mean, third fourth party candidates can always be spoilers.

Speaker 7 (14:48):
You know.

Speaker 9 (14:49):
Here in Wisconsin and coming back to my homestate, you know,
people are still you know, relitigating twenty sixteen where Jill
Stein got enough votes to deny Hillary Clinton the electoral
votes here. I think one of the big differences is
that I think voters are, particularly when you get very
close to the election, are going to see this as
what it is, was the binary choice I think that

(15:10):
a lot of voters are going to be reluctant to
throw away their votes. However, there's always going to be
that contingent there, so I agree it depends on what
state you're talking with.

Speaker 8 (15:20):
But Robert F.

Speaker 9 (15:21):
Kennedy Junior does seem like increasingly irrelevant and it's hard
to see how he gets much traction going forward.

Speaker 1 (15:28):
Let's go to India. Who is in Minneapolis, India? Welcome
to the middle, go ahead.

Speaker 15 (15:34):
Yes, thank you for having me. I have always voted Democratic.
I'm a Fesota, so I always vote. But unless this
genofid ends, I'm going to vote Jill Stein third party.
It is a single issue for me, even with well
well as being my governor, who I approve of as
vice president. Great choice. Something's got to change or a

(15:57):
third party for me.

Speaker 3 (15:59):
And yeah, how do you feel about.

Speaker 1 (16:03):
Okay, so you're talking about the situation in Gaza, how
do you feel though about Trump on that issue? Would
you be more upset if Trump won than if Harris won?
Given that issue in particular.

Speaker 15 (16:16):
I guess I'm really tired of being having the lesser
of two evils be thrown against people like myself. I'm
going to vote with my conscience, and you know what,
if Trump gets in, then I'm going to blame the
Democratic Party for that, not myself.

Speaker 3 (16:32):
India, thank you for that que this way.

Speaker 1 (16:35):
Yeah, that that is true, and we're seeing the protests
outside of the Democratic convention. Candy Crawley, what do you
think about that issue, the gaza issue, and how that
may still affect people's feeling about their choices in this race,
even though Biden is off the ticket.

Speaker 4 (16:51):
Now, well he's off the ticket, but his running mate
of the last four years is his vice president, is
on it. Look, I think some of those protesting, unlike
this voter who's made up her minds, some of those
protesting I think are looking for a signal from her.

(17:13):
Now she's talked about, you know, we need to have
a cease fire, she said to all the right words,
but it hasn't I guess, been in the right context.
But I think they are looking for something that says
where you know, if they're waiting for her to say
We're not going to give any more weapons to Israel,
I don't think that's going to happen, but I mean,
at some level they're waiting for a signal from her

(17:34):
that she feels differently than Joe Biden, which of course
puts her in, you know, sort of a strange place.
But she's not going to separate from Israel, I don't believe.
But there may be a way she can formulate an
answer that will satisfy some of those protesters, but not all.
And then either you do the binary choice and because
you think, look, you know, no matter what I do,

(17:57):
one of these two people is going to win. Who's
better on this? Or you vote for a third party
Canada to put your protest in.

Speaker 9 (18:03):
Charlie Sykes, Yeah, I always need to feel the need
to push back against anybody that uses the term genocide
to describe what's going on in the Middle East.

Speaker 8 (18:12):
I think it's.

Speaker 9 (18:13):
Slightly obscene to describe Israel's active self defense. Look, i
am deep concerned about their tactics, and I'm very concerned
about the loss of life in Gaza, but this is
not genocide and not not to be compared to to genocide. Now,
I will say that I thought that this week was
going to be a tipping point on this particular issue.

(18:36):
You were mentioning the nineteen sixty eight the Democratic Convention
in Chicago.

Speaker 8 (18:40):
By the way, I was there.

Speaker 9 (18:41):
I was there on the floor the day that you
played that of the dan Rather were just a baby
at the time. I was thirteen years old in a
page to the delegation, So I got to run around
with this sort of nerdy little vests and everything.

Speaker 8 (18:55):
But you know, I was among.

Speaker 9 (18:57):
Those who were very concerned that you would see a
replay and that you'd you know, forty fifty sixty thousand
protesters descent on Chicago, and that the Democratic Convention.

Speaker 8 (19:06):
Would really be.

Speaker 9 (19:09):
Overwhelmed by by the chaos and even the potential of violence. Instead,
these you know, pro Palestinian protests turned out to be
an overhyped fizzle. I think I saw one estimate that
while they had expected thirty of forty thousand people, maybe
three thousand, three five hundred showed up. This was the

(19:30):
week in which I think the Democrats could have been tested.
I think their momentum could have been derailed by the protest.
But as we've seen many, many times, sometimes there are
protest movements or you know, activist movements that are louder
than they are large, and I think that you're seeing

(19:53):
that right now play out in Chicago.

Speaker 8 (19:54):
Again. There's a couple of more days.

Speaker 9 (19:57):
But I think one of the most important things that
happened and this week was that this Democratic convention in
Chicago is not a replay of the nineteen sixty eight
Democratic Convention in Chicago.

Speaker 1 (20:08):
Let's go to Meredith, who's in Kansas City. Meredith, Welcome
to the middle.

Speaker 10 (20:12):
Go ahead, Hi, Hi, thanks for having me. I'm a
retired teachert and in the past couple of weeks, I've
spent my own money on stickers, signes, t shirts, and
I've donated both to Kamala and Lucas k Kunz.

Speaker 3 (20:26):
Who's running for Senate in the state of Missouri against
Josh Holly.

Speaker 10 (20:30):
Right against Yes, Yes, I'm elated to have Kamala as
a choice.

Speaker 3 (20:37):
And how did you feel about Biden?

Speaker 10 (20:39):
My kids are in their late twenties and thirties. I
love Biden. I think he's done a great service to
our country and well qualified, but maybe it was time
for him to pass over the baton. And I actually
sent him a thank you note and told him so wow.
I told him about my own experience of retiring and
how he needs to go find and things that he

(21:01):
loves to do. And thank you so much for all
of his years of service.

Speaker 1 (21:05):
Meredith, thank you very much for that call. Let me
go to another one. Rick is in Philadelphia. Rick, go ahead,
welcome to the middle.

Speaker 16 (21:12):
Well, I feel like my selection who I support is
Robert Kennedy Junior. And I feel like it's been very
frustrating because when I talk to, say, my parents or
my neighbors who are in the boomer generation about him,
they're like, well, we don't see anything on him. Is
he running, why is he participating the debates? Why isn't

(21:33):
he on the nightly news? And I just feel like
there is a well, there's definitely a conservative effort by
the DNC to keep them off ballots across all fifty states,
but there is, you know, potentially also an effort to
just keep them off the mainstream media. In the past
twelve months, I think he's only had three live interviews

(21:57):
on mainstream media, one Fox one and one ABC. And
it just doesn't seem like it's very democratic system.

Speaker 1 (22:06):
Rick, Uh, we got you there, your lines breaking up
a little bit. But Charlie Sykes, what about that? Do
you think that the media, Uh, it's a difficult choice,
a challenge for the media to sort of decide how
much to cover various candidates that are not polling very high,
uh anytime along the way.

Speaker 9 (22:25):
Well, also somebody who is uh, you know, a reckless
fabulous like R. F. K.

Speaker 8 (22:30):
Junior.

Speaker 9 (22:30):
I mean, this is a problem that they haven't solved
with Donald Trump either. What do you have when you
have somebody who spreads this kind of misinformation?

Speaker 8 (22:37):
However, I do think that.

Speaker 9 (22:38):
It was a good deal of media coverage about the
story of the baby bear, that that that that he
you know, faked the death of you know, posed, you know,
posed with pictures with the the dead bear and then
and then you know, throw it in Central Park. So
you know, we got a little bit of a glimpse
of who Robert F. Kennedy you know is. And simply

(22:59):
because he's running for president his name is Kennedy doesn't
mean that the media has an obligation to treat someone
like him seriously because he's a deeply unserious man.

Speaker 3 (23:09):
I'm afraid, Tolliver.

Speaker 1 (23:11):
I know that there's some comments coming in online at
listen to the miiddle dot com and on social media.

Speaker 2 (23:16):
Give us a few yeah, Tom writes, My choices in
twenty twenty four would not be either candidate and my
choice has never made the final since I started voting
in nineteen seventy six. Jim and Independence Missouri Rights. I'm
so sick of both political parties. What would happen if
we abolished party affiliation and have candidates focus on their
merits like education, business, social or academic achievements and what
they can bring to the table. Our government officials waste

(23:38):
so much time blaming the other party instead of doing
their work. I feel like we hear that one a lot.

Speaker 1 (23:44):
Yeah, you know, that's an interesting one, Candy Crowley, just
the idea of the amount of time that the two
parties end up spending focused on going after the other
party versus as as Jim says, they're just doing their work.

Speaker 4 (23:59):
True, that except for when everyone talks about Joe Biden
and looks back at his four year term. What do
they talk about all the things that he accomplished, most
of them having to accomplish them through congressional approval as well.
So things get done, not all the big things get done.

(24:20):
I remember when I first started covering Capitol Hill and
they had parental leave, you know, newborn and parental or
family family leave they called it. It took them fifteen
years to pass family leave, and it just it's mind
boggling how slowly it goes. It frustrates people who have
a certain view of what they want the government to

(24:41):
do and what they want them to pass. Things get done.
Do they spend a lot of time attacking each other?
They do. Does the media go after that moth and flame? Absolutely,
But it's not that things don't get done, it's that
sometimes the things that people think they most want is
not addressed.

Speaker 1 (25:00):
Yeah, let's go to William, who's on the line from Minneapolis. William,
welcome to the middle. What do you think about your
choice as this election?

Speaker 17 (25:08):
Well, let me just say that I am a lifelong Democrat.
I have voted for every Democratic president in nineteen eighty
four when I started with Walter Mondale for.

Speaker 12 (25:19):
He seven million of us couldn't be wrong. But I
I feel that with now I think Biden has.

Speaker 18 (25:28):
Been a tremendous president. I think he's done so much
good for the country. There are some things I disagree
with him on, but nonetheless I think he's been good.
And I and but I also felt that it was
time for him to pass in the time and for
the Democratic Party to take the next step to to

(25:50):
head on to the next generation of leaders.

Speaker 12 (25:53):
And what worry to me about Biden dropping me out
was the Democrat Party was not going to be.

Speaker 3 (26:01):
Harris. Yeah, it was going to be that.

Speaker 18 (26:05):
It was to be a paid of nineteen eight.

Speaker 12 (26:07):
We're going to have you know, Boodha judge delegate.

Speaker 3 (26:12):
Right, delegate or yeah, delegate right.

Speaker 1 (26:17):
And we saw in the and we saw in the
convention that as as they went through the roll call
that that that wasn't the case, and you had just
about all the delegates going to Kamala Harris and that
By the way, if there are Republicans out there who
are very happy about their choice or unhappy about their
choice of Donald Trump and the race, please give us
a call at eight four four four middle that's eight

(26:37):
four four four six four uh three three five three.
I'm want to go to Eli, who's in Lawrence, Kansas. Eli,
what do you think of your choices?

Speaker 19 (26:47):
Yes, hither, thanks for having me. I'm quite energized by
this change, you know. I'm excited to vote for Kamala
and Tim in the coming election. But I am not
particularly happy with how everything transpired with the asking of
Joe Biden to step away from seeking the presidency because
it was mired in so much agism. And you know,

(27:09):
I'm in my mid twenties and I definitely think that
young people are underrepresented in our government. At the same time, though,
the optics of the presidency, I think, in some ways
have taken a much higher role than they should compared
to the actual policies. And I think that Joe Biden

(27:31):
shares so many of the same policies that Kamalo would have,
and I do believe that he likely would have been
able to execute the role of the presidency in a
second term, even if it might not have been optically
to the standards that people would want.

Speaker 3 (27:46):
ELI.

Speaker 1 (27:47):
Thank you for that, Charlie Sykes, What do you think
of that somebody in their mid twenties who says they're
upset about the agism they saw in Biden being kind
of pushed out of the presidency or the presidential contest.

Speaker 9 (27:58):
Well, as a senior citizen myself, I'm sensitive to all that,
but I don't think that's what happened there at all.
I think that, look, there comes a point where.

Speaker 8 (28:10):
You lose a step.

Speaker 9 (28:12):
You know, the best athletes in the world can't throw
the fastball. They can't throw the touchdown pass. Joe Biden
had served his country for fifty years, but he's eighty one,
eighty two years old. And I think that what happened
at the at the debate was not that something changed,
was that something was exposed, something that.

Speaker 8 (28:33):
We had not been forced to deal with.

Speaker 9 (28:36):
And I have to say that a lot of I
sort of have the flip side to all of this
that I think that there were a lot of people
who were shocked by what they found out and then
became very angry when they realized.

Speaker 8 (28:48):
That this had been covered up.

Speaker 9 (28:50):
Look, we all know that you can have bubbles in
American politics, and we talk a lot about, you know,
the alternative reality silos on the right that gave us
Donald Trump and that culture personality. But I think what
we also found out was the Democrats were also in denial.
They were ignoring the evidence of their own eyes and
had formed a bubble around Joe Biden. And I think

(29:10):
if you look at the public opinion polls, you'll see
that overwhelmingly Americans thought that he was too old, that
he did not have the capacity to do this. And
the reason there was a change at the top of
the ticket was because I think Democrats realized that whether
or not he could have served another four years, he

(29:31):
was not going to be able to execute the prime
directive of twenty twenty four, which was to win this election.
So at a certain point you have to say, Grandpa,
we love you, but we've got to take the keys.

Speaker 8 (29:44):
Away from it.

Speaker 1 (29:44):
We got to take you away, oh boy, and not
have you drive it anymore, you know, Tolliver. Some of
the excitements surrounding the entry of Kamala Harris is reminiscent
of Barack Obama's nomination back in two thousand and eight.

Speaker 2 (29:56):
That's right, and back then Joe Biden was the VP candidate.
Here he is accepted thing the VP pick at the
two thousand and eight convention.

Speaker 20 (30:03):
Millions of Americans have been knocked down, and this is
the time, as Americans together, we get back.

Speaker 8 (30:10):
Up, back up together.

Speaker 20 (30:14):
Our debt, our debt to our parents and our grandparents
is too great, Our obligation to our children is too sacred.
These are extraordinary times. This is an extraordinary election. The
American people are ready.

Speaker 3 (30:31):
I am ready, but Rock is ready.

Speaker 20 (30:33):
This is his time, this is our time, this is
America's time.

Speaker 1 (30:39):
Such a difference it's tolliver to hear him speak then
and now, although I guess when I listened to myself
sixteen years ago, I sound different too.

Speaker 2 (30:47):
Yeah, me too.

Speaker 3 (30:48):
There you go. We'll be right back with more of
the middle.

Speaker 1 (30:53):
This is the middle. I'm Jeremy Hobson. This hour, we're
asking you how do you feel about your choices this election?
You can call us at eight four four four or middle.
That's a four four four six four three three five three.
I'm joined by journalists and commentator Charlie Sykes, as well
as former CNN Chief political correspondent Candy Crowley. And before
we go back to the phones, Candy Crowley, there are

(31:13):
independent voters that are gonna make a big choice in
this selection, the middle, you might say, and these candidates
Harris and Trump are gonna have to go after these
independent voters. What kind of issues do you think will
rise to the top as a result of that.

Speaker 4 (31:27):
Well, I think number one, the economy, Number two, the economy,
number three, the economy. I think, you know, immigrant generally, uh,
you know, generally it is the economy. Immigration certainly is
in there, or the border border problems with undocumented workers.
But I just I think it comes down to that.

(31:50):
I'm always sort of amazed at those I love talking
to those one to two percent people because I think
this is so such a choice that it's hard for
me to believe that we're in August whatever this is
day and there are people going you don't show to
do Trump, you.

Speaker 3 (32:07):
Know, but there are are.

Speaker 4 (32:09):
There are, no there are. I have to tell you that.
I used to preach that to my staff all the time,
saying there are no such things as the undecided voters.
This was like two weeks before an election. I said,
that's crazy. They're either not going to vote or they're
not telling us. And I picked up my youngest son
at Union station. At one point. He got in the
car and he said, Mom, I don't know whether to
vote for John McCain and Barack Obama. And I thought,

(32:31):
an undecided voter sitting in my car. So there are
It's just this is such a choice. It's hard to believe.
But they're out there, and I do think it's the
economy in their lives. I think that's what is going.

Speaker 1 (32:44):
To One of the nice things about this show is
whenever we say we want I need a suburban woman
voter from the Midwest. I need an eighteen year old,
we say, I want to hear from a middle voter.
Here we have one. Now, John is in Glastonbury, Connecticut. John,
go ahead, what do you think?

Speaker 7 (33:01):
Yeah?

Speaker 21 (33:01):
I was saying, you know, to the the first took
my call that I'm disappointed we don't have a choice
in the center of Donald Trump is so far right
outrageous that it's not like the eighties where there were
more decisions that you could way back and forth. Right now,
the physically conservative, socially liberal, moderate, un affiliate voter, I
definitely feel I have to vote for Kamala Harris because

(33:23):
of the insanity of Donald Trump.

Speaker 1 (33:25):
Okay, so a middle voter you feel like you have
to vote for Hairis.

Speaker 7 (33:31):
I do?

Speaker 21 (33:31):
It's I mean locally and on the state. I tend
to bounce back and forth. I looked at the candidates.
Now there's just no choice because the Republican Party is
so co opted by Donald Trump's craziness. You know, there's
not issues. It's keeping the person with issues out of
White House.

Speaker 3 (33:49):
Thank you so much for that call. John.

Speaker 1 (33:51):
Let me go to Linda, who's in the Chicago suburbs. Linda,
what do you think about your choices.

Speaker 14 (33:56):
Hi, Well, I voted for Trump the first time, and
I'm embarrassed to say, you know, I went with the
we need someone who's more of a business person, et cetera.
I live in a neighborhood that's probably half I would say,
half blue, half red out here in the suburbs, and

(34:19):
believe me, there's a lot of Trump people in Chicago area.
But anyway, I watched Trump the way he behaved and
how just again, how he handle relationships and his derogatory behavior.

(34:40):
And then I think the two things kind of the
last straw thing first was January sixth, and then the
second thing was Roe v. Wade pushed me to the
other side. Absolutely, I would not vote. I don't think
I will vote Republican again.

Speaker 1 (34:58):
Will you vote for Harris this time? Or you is
going to not vote?

Speaker 7 (35:01):
Oh?

Speaker 14 (35:02):
No, I'm voting. I'm there voting.

Speaker 22 (35:04):
Absolutely.

Speaker 1 (35:06):
Yeah, Linda, thanks, thanks so much for that call. Charlie Sykes,
I heard a little wow there when she said it
was January sixth and Roe v Wade.

Speaker 3 (35:14):
What do you think of that?

Speaker 9 (35:16):
No, I think that the Roe v. Wade is going
to continue to be a major issue here. It is
interesting the number of Republican women that I've talked to
who had the same kind of reaction to all of that.
And again, I'm not sure that we've really measured the
intensity of some of those those shifts you had, you know,

(35:37):
a fifty year president that was thrown out. We saw
some of what happened in the in the midterms. I
think it's going to be an issue, you know. I
this this question of what do voters in the middle
do is fascinating to me because I feel, like the
previous caller, I'm consider myself centrist, maybe center right, and

(35:58):
so it's not like I get exactly what I want.
But obviously, given the choice between Donald Trump and Kamala Harris,
I'm gonna go with Kamala Harris, even though I disagree
with her on so many specific policies, because at a
certain point it's not about the specific policy. I can
disagree with you on six of ten or eight of
ten policies, but given the magnitude of the threat that

(36:21):
Donald Trump poses, I'm gonna do it anyway. And I
am struck by the number of centrist voters that you know,
if you would have asked me a year ago, would
they be willing to vote for Kamal you know, Kamala Harris.
I would have said no, I think it would be
a very, very tough sell.

Speaker 8 (36:36):
In fact, I was in.

Speaker 9 (36:36):
A meeting in early July where I said, yeah, I
think it would be it's gonna be very, very hard
if Joe Biden drops out to get these swing voters
to go for her. And yet in the last month
I've seen more of a willingness because I think of
this backlash against Trump. I would say one other factor,
and I agree with Candy about the the undecided voters.

Speaker 8 (36:58):
I can't imagine you're undecided. I wonder.

Speaker 9 (37:03):
Whether or not in that those final days when they're
deciding not to vote, who to vote, what role just
pure exhaustion is going to play voters who go you
know what, I just cannot take four more years of
this chaos and the BS. I just can't take another
four years of living under trump Ism. And I do

(37:26):
wonder how big a factor that's going to be. Not
you know, we will talk about the border and crime
and inflation and all of these things, but I wonder
this year it's just something we want to turn the page.
I mean, two thousand and eight, you talked about two
thousand and eight. Obviously in the middle of a big
economic meltdown. You could say the two thousand and eight

(37:47):
was about the economy, but in the end it was
also about change, and it was about just turning the page.

Speaker 8 (37:54):
Wonder if this will be the same thing this year.
I don't know.

Speaker 1 (37:57):
Yeah, let's go to Andrew, who's in Denver. Andrew, your
thoughts on this selection and your choices?

Speaker 7 (38:04):
Hi?

Speaker 3 (38:04):
Yes.

Speaker 7 (38:05):
My first comment is that I think the media accepts this,
I don't know if you call it a meme or wherever,
that we have to vote for the lesser of two evils.
I think there's one clear evil in this race, and
I don't think that voting for Kamala Harris is voting
for an evil. The second point is that if people
are unhappy with only having two choices, then they need

(38:27):
to support ranked choice voting. The only way to get
a legitimate third parties is to build up grass roots
and the only way to do that is with ranked
choice voting. Yeah, and then you would have more two choices.

Speaker 1 (38:42):
Andrew, you know, I think we did an entire show
on ranked choice voting. But Candy Crawley, this has come
up a lot. There are two states I believe it
it's Alaska and Maine that are already doing some ranked
choice voting. This is something that's gaining some popularity in
this country where you wouldn't be voting for one or
the other, but you sort of give choices of who
you want and then if your choice doesn't make it,

(39:03):
then your second choice gets put forward.

Speaker 3 (39:06):
Is that realistic? Do you think? In a broad way
in the United States?

Speaker 4 (39:12):
Never say never. I think it's difficult because the system
is so sad. People just to say, why can't there
be a third party? And I say, because it's the
system is set up for two parties.

Speaker 16 (39:22):
It just is.

Speaker 4 (39:23):
So it means, you know, taking that entire system down,
which is hard to do. Obviously you can do it
state by state, but I just not immediately. That would
probably be my answer. I can't see that happening anytime soon,
just because of the difficulty of a moving the parties
which have a lot of power and be just logistically
doing that sort of thing.

Speaker 1 (39:45):
Let's go to Lolo who is in Middle Tennessee. Lolo,
what are your thoughts about your choices this election?

Speaker 22 (39:54):
I will thank you for this show.

Speaker 23 (39:56):
I think it's really important. I'm kind of a fish
out of out of wa I'm sixty nine years old.
I've been in the South seventeen years, in Middle Tennessee.
I'm born and raised in Madison, Wisconsin, in one foot
in the city, one foot in the country. I've voted
Democrat my whole life. But also the older I get
and having lived in the South for seventeen years, I'm
not turning more conservative at all because I live in

(40:18):
the South. Just being older and more mature, I'm concerned
about the Democratic Party becoming so it's stuck in this
ideas of you know, a refreshing wave, which is really
really important, and we need the message of hope big times.
But there's some really big issues and that I'm concerned about,
and I don't know, I don't feel comfortable passing a

(40:40):
vote for Harris, although you know, there's no way I
could vote for the Mega Party, absolutely not. But I
do think we need to have some serious, frank discussions
about immigration, and they're complicated issues, even Roe v.

Speaker 5 (40:55):
Wade.

Speaker 22 (40:55):
Of course, we need to have protections for women's rights,
and this is a big deal, but we also need
to have kind of a mature a more mature, reckoning
with all of those issues, and so I don't think
my views on things should make me a Republican. I
feel like I see people leaving to go to the
Republican Party because maybe they are concerned about these issues.

(41:17):
We need people in this center. So I really appreciate
Charlie Sykes, and I want to say, hey, I kind
of love you, and I feel like I feel like
I'm in the party of Charlie, but on the opposite.
So anyway, I wanted to make those comments more maturity
for all sides. We've got to talk about, frank issues.

(41:38):
Immigration is a big one. Yeah, one of the things
that's going to keep me from voting for her.

Speaker 3 (41:42):
So well, let me take that.

Speaker 1 (41:43):
Let me take that to the person you're a fan of,
Charlie Sykes and ask him immigration, Charlie Sykes, do you
think once Kamala Harris starts actually, you know, doing some interviews,
maybe doing a press conference or two, that we're going
to hear her really articulate a vision for or the
border for immigration. Will it be any different than Biden,

(42:04):
which who tried to pass this big bipartisan plan and
then it was blocked by former President Trump.

Speaker 8 (42:09):
Yeah, I mean, she's going to have to address this.

Speaker 9 (42:11):
And by the way, those are you know that that's
a key point is that amazingly they came up with
a bipartisan plan, and so, you know, to the caller's point,
there actually was a serious, grown up discussion about immigration
policy between Democrats and Republicans, between liberals and conservatives.

Speaker 8 (42:30):
And they came up again.

Speaker 9 (42:31):
You know, think about how countercultural that is given the
environment that we're in right now. Then you had a
very very conservative senator from from Oklahoma who you know,
signed on to and said, this is the most conservative
piece of legislation that that we've ever you know, come
this close to passing. The Democrats were on board. The
only reason they did not actually tried to fix the

(42:54):
problem by this by passing this legislation, which had strong support,
was because Donald Trump said, I don't want you to
pass it because I think that that would hurt my
campaign and that would help Joe Biden. I mean, you
want to talk about just one of those moments where
your shoulders sag and you go, okay, So it really
comes down to your campaign over actually fixing the problem.

(43:15):
It's a real problem. It's an incredibly complex problem. Grown
ups need to solve it. They almost did, and Donald
Trump tubed it. The other thing that I guess for
me because I probably agree with the caller on this,
I don't think we've had enough attention on the fact
that both Donald Trump and the Republican Party seemed to

(43:35):
be absolutely committed to mass deportation, trying to deport ten
to twenty million people from this country. This will be
one of the great humanitarian disasters of our time. And
they have not explained how they're going to do that.
Round people up, use the military, put them in cars

(43:57):
and camps.

Speaker 8 (43:58):
What are we talking about here?

Speaker 9 (44:00):
So I guess this is that moment where if there
is a compromise, let's go with it. But we also
need to say no to something as horrific as rounding
up millions of people, which, by the way, is not
going to happen.

Speaker 8 (44:13):
It will be a complete disaster. So I agree with
the caller on that.

Speaker 9 (44:16):
But the reason we did not have that grown up
conversation is because of one person, is because of Donald Trump.

Speaker 1 (44:21):
Let's sneak one more call in here and Sean, who's
in Grand Junction, Colorado.

Speaker 3 (44:27):
Hi, Sean, Welcome to the middle go ahead.

Speaker 5 (44:28):
I'm really happy that Tamala is going to be the candidate.
I feel like for the United States to be the
shining city on the hill, our democracy has to be
completely inclusive. I feel that it has to be very
inclusive and everybody needs to have their vote. And I

(44:51):
think that Donald Trump is simply the bit of me
of rich white elitism.

Speaker 3 (44:59):
Sean, thank you for verry much for that.

Speaker 1 (45:00):
Candy Crowley, I'll just go to you on that, and
a couple of things there. One he brought up Donald
Trump's wealth that has come up a lot this week
at the Democratic Convention. I wonder how much you said economy, economy, economy.
I wonder how much the sort of middle class versus
wealthy is going to be the theme of this and
how these candidates are going to go after people in the.

Speaker 4 (45:21):
Middle Well, certainly the middle classes. Where where the Democrats
If you just listened to the last two days, this
is all aimed at, you know, the middle class, and
of saying Donald Trump and his billionaire friends are about
to get a tax cut. So it certainly is they
do speak to the wealth gap from the Democratic side.
On the Republican side, it doesn't has not seem to

(45:44):
those who are supporting Donald Trump. It doesn't matter to them.
I mean, it's interesting the people that he attracts, which
tend to be you think this the sort of the
more middle class, blue collar voters, and they don't seem
at all bothered. And I don't think health is a
problem in the US. Everybody wants to be wealthy, so
they don't tend to punish people for being wealthy acting

(46:07):
wealthy as something else.

Speaker 1 (46:09):
Charlie Sykes, what do you expect turnout will be like?
In the selection in twenty twenty I look back at
was sixty six percent, which was the highest rate in
more than a century. In twenty sixteen, when Trump won,
it was only fifty nine percent. In two thousand, when
Bush won, it was fifty four percent. What do you
think it'll be like this year?

Speaker 9 (46:28):
Well, I'm willing to go out on a limb and
say that this will be the biggest turnout election ever
because I think people are engaged on both sides. It
is not going to be boring. We have only about
what seventy eighty days to go, but I'm expecting a
massive turnout. I'm not sure what I would have said

(46:49):
before Joe Biden dropped out of the race. But you're
seeing a complete transformation of the mood.

Speaker 3 (46:55):
Kendy Curly, what do you think turnout?

Speaker 4 (46:58):
I'd have to agree with that, just because I I
do think that the crowds that you're seeing in these arenas,
we all know how they're going to vote, but what
we're seeing is the enthusiasm. And if that kind of enthusiasm,
which Trump supporters have as well, that's going to translate
into a huge turnout and wouldn't that be nice?

Speaker 1 (47:18):
Well, I want to thank my guests, veteran anchor and
CNN chief local correspondent former Candy Crowley, and journalist and
commentator Charlie Sikes.

Speaker 3 (47:26):
Thanks so much to both of you.

Speaker 8 (47:28):
Thankk you so much.

Speaker 1 (47:29):
Thank you, and we say farewell this week to Joanne Jennings,
who has for the last year helped get the show
off the ground.

Speaker 3 (47:34):
Joanne, thank you for everything.

Speaker 1 (47:35):
And next week we're bringing you my conversation with a
number of former military and government officials involved in the
new documentary Wargame, which looks at what would happen if
there's another January sixth style event, but this time with
a split in the military as we wrap this hour,
I want to acknowledge that we've lost one of the
greats of public radio, a man named Jape Pearce, who
is a mentor to me at a young age in Champagne, Urbana.

(47:57):
He lost a battle with cancer this week, far too young.
He was on the board of NPR for many years,
was the radio general manager at Illinois Public Media for
more than a decade, and most recently he was the
head of WVIK in the Quad Cities, which is.

Speaker 3 (48:10):
Airing this show right now.

Speaker 1 (48:12):
In fact, Jay was the first person to sign on
to air the Middle when we were piloting the show
two years ago. He taught me so many things, but
one of the most important was to remember that there's
joy in doing radio. That with all the serious stuff
we have to talk about, we should remember to have
fun while doing it and keep smiling.

Speaker 3 (48:29):
Jay. We will miss you. I'm Jeremy Hobson. Talk to
you next week.
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