May 9, 2025 • 48 mins
On this episode of The Middle, we ask you what changes still need to be made in society for people with disabilities - 35 years after the ADA was signed into law. Jeremy is joined by disability advocate and speaker Alycia Anderson and Wall Street Journal columnist Callum Borchers. DJ Tolliver joins as well, plus calls from around the country. #ADA #disability #inclusion #disabled #accessability
See omnystudio.com/listener for privacy information.
Mark as Played
Transcript
Episode Transcript
Available transcripts are automatically generated. Complete accuracy is not guaranteed.
Speaker 1 (00:05):
Welcome to the Middle. I'm Jeremy Hobson, along with our
house DJ Tolliver and Tolliver the Middle of the country
has a new claim to fame.
Speaker 2 (00:14):
Does it have anything to do with Corn?
Speaker 1 (00:16):
No, it is that Hope is from Chicago. How about that?
Speaker 2 (00:21):
Okay, That's where I'm from.
Speaker 1 (00:22):
Yeah, well I was. You know, Instagram is having fun
with this. I saw that. Now Michael Jordan is going
to be named a saint and Oprah will be the
Queen of England as resulted this. So anyway, we are
going to let other shows talk about that development and
the ones that I just made up there, but we
are going to focus this hour on the seventy million
Americans who report having a disability. It has been thirty
(00:45):
five years since the Americans with Disabilities Act was signed
into law by President George H. W.
Speaker 3 (00:49):
Bush.
Speaker 1 (00:50):
It was a landmark piece of legislation that banned discrimination
against people with disabilities and mandated reasonable accommodations in public
buildings and transportation. So, thirty five years later, what is
still needed in society for people with disabilities? And are
the victories from the ADA at risk? We're taking your
calls in a moment at eight four four four middle
that's eight four four four six four three three five three.
(01:13):
But first last week on the show, we were talking
about how government can work better with the co author
of the new book Abundance. Here are some of the
voicemails we got after the show.
Speaker 4 (01:22):
Hi, my name is ad Navarede and I am calling
from Los Angeles regarding red tape. That you're in Los Angeles.
Speaker 5 (01:29):
We have a lot of rules and building in safety,
city planning departments that are really at the root of
limitations for our community. My name is Deddie. I'm from Manchester, Tennessee.
I know it's a difficult job to do a government
budget as large as America's, but I just think it
would be better if we got back to instilling public
(01:52):
service and people who run for office instead of all
of the politics that we are dis manipulated with.
Speaker 6 (02:00):
Hi.
Speaker 7 (02:00):
My name is Jim Sharp from Brighton, Massachusetts.
Speaker 5 (02:03):
I have a very difficult time with the Trump but honestly,
he's really taken.
Speaker 8 (02:07):
The helm and pushed things.
Speaker 5 (02:09):
I think that Democrats should put together a project twenty
twenty nine or twenty twenty seven.
Speaker 9 (02:14):
List of stuff more action, you know, boldness.
Speaker 1 (02:18):
Well, thanks to everyone who called in And you can
hear that entire episode on our podcast in partnership with
iHeart Podcasts, on the iHeart app or wherever you listen
to podcasts. And of course we've got our weekly extra
One Thing Trump Did podcast on the Middle podcast feed.
So now to our question this hour, thirty five years
after the Americans with Disabilities Act was signed into law,
what improvements are still needed for people with disabilities? Tolliver
(02:39):
the phone number again. Please you can.
Speaker 2 (02:42):
Call us at eight four four four Middle, that's eight
four four four six four three three five three, or
you can write to us a listen to the Middle
dot com. You can also comment on our live stream
on YouTube.
Speaker 1 (02:52):
Joining me this hour Alicia Anderson, a disability and inclusion
advocate and speaker. Alicia, Welcome to the Middle.
Speaker 10 (02:58):
Thank you for having me. I'm excited.
Speaker 1 (03:01):
And Calum Borscher's is also here, a columnist for The
Wall Street Journal who has covered this issue extensively. Calum,
great to have you.
Speaker 11 (03:06):
As well, So good to be with you, Jeremy, thanks
for having me.
Speaker 1 (03:10):
And before we get to the phones, Calum, what do
we mean by disabled in twenty twenty five? It's a
pretty broad definition.
Speaker 11 (03:18):
Yeah, that's a harder question to answer than you might think.
I think that when we think of the Americans with
Disabilities to Act, at least as maybe it was conceived
in nineteen ninety, we think of maybe people who were blind,
people who were deaf, people who use a wheelchair, some
of those classic easily recognizable disabilities. But the definition today
is much broader than fact. In fact, the Centers for
Disease Control and Prevention uses one like this. It includes
(03:41):
anybody who reports difficulty concentrating, making decisions, or venturing out
alone because of a physical, mental, or emotional condition. So
that is how you get some seventy million people, as
you said, jeremy self identifying as having a disability. It's
one in four American adults, so it's a very large
of the population.
Speaker 1 (04:01):
And Alicia, you were born with something called sacral a genesis,
which is an underdevelopment of the spinal cord. You use
a wheelchair. What kind of a difference has the Americans
with Disabilities Act made for you personally?
Speaker 12 (04:14):
It's I mean, we've come a long way in the
last fifty years or so of the disability rights movement,
and when this legislation started to appear in our society
and it's it's the gateway to participating in life or not.
You know, it is absolutely imperative for people with any
type of disability, whether it's apparent physical disability like mine
(04:36):
or you know, the eighty eighty five percent of people
that have non apparent disabilities to have the accommodations and
the accessibility to access life and produce. And so it's
the difference between freedom or exclusion. Honestly, it's really really
important this legislation is preserved and advanced. And yeah, it's
(04:59):
been a it's been a massive piece of independence for
me in my life.
Speaker 1 (05:04):
Well, and when you think about all the places you
go in your life, what percentage of the places would
you say have the accessibility that you need right now?
Speaker 12 (05:13):
You know, there's a good we're pretty lucky in the
United States that we have this type of legislation.
Speaker 10 (05:19):
Is it perfect?
Speaker 12 (05:19):
No. I just had somebody on my podcast. I've bought
a podcast called Pushing Forward with Alicia, and of the
statistics of almost you know, one point eighty five billion
people excuse me, worldwide having a disability, only about sixteen
percent have access like physical accessibility to life, and a
(05:40):
lot of that happens in the United States, So we
have a lot of privilege here, but the Americans with
Disabilities Act and other legislations.
Speaker 10 (05:50):
Are the entry point, not the end.
Speaker 12 (05:53):
And we're living in a modern day where we need
to continue to advance these things as much as.
Speaker 1 (05:58):
Possibleition to covering this issue, you also have several palsy.
What kind of a difference has the eighty A made
for you?
Speaker 11 (06:06):
Yeah, I look, nineteen ninety was a big year for me, Jeremy.
I mean, I was, I was three years old. I
was they had my first major leg surgery, spent several
months in like a full body cast. I picked purple,
by the way for my cast color go bold, you know,
I mean, if you're going to be fully covered, right,
you really go for it. And of course nineteen ninety
the Americans Disabilities Act, as you say, and so these
were two really formative experiences for me as well. And
(06:28):
as Alicia said, I think you really can't overstate the
degree to which that has, you know, shaped access for
people in our generation. And it's interesting to compare notes
with folks, you know, who did not live under the
ADA earlier. You know, I'm thinking Jeremy of a conversation
I had with a paralympian, you know, who competed in
the two thousand and two thousand and four Paralympics. So
(06:49):
in his youth, you know, well before the Americans with
Disabilities Act, and even he was graduating from college, he
told me before the Americans with Disabilities Act, and he's
he's legally blind, and he told me that one of
his first job offers was rescinded once the employer found
out that he was blind, and there was no legal
protection against that sort of thing at the time.
Speaker 1 (07:09):
So when you look at what's happening right now, and
since Donald Trump has come back into office, they've gotten
rid of the sign language interpreter at the White House,
the web page on accessibility has disappeared. The administration has
banned DEI initiatives, which certainly affect people with disabilities. Are
the gains callum of the ADA at risk.
Speaker 11 (07:31):
Well, some of them could be, and I think especially
for folks who have, as Alisha said, kind of those
invisible disabilities.
Speaker 3 (07:37):
Right.
Speaker 11 (07:37):
So one of the things that really piqued my interest
in my recent reporting is the recent uptick in people
in the workplace. My column is focused every week on
the workplace, people in the workplace asking for accommodations, and
this is partly, not exclusively, but partly a post pandemic phenomenon, right,
I mean, the ability to work from home was really
a game changer for a lot of Americans with disabilities.
(07:58):
And so when you look at the data from twenty
twenty one to twenty twenty four, how many Americans are
asking for disability accommodations at work and making a complaint
to the Equal Employment Opportunity Commission if they actually don't
get what they're asking for. You've seen a fifty one
percent spike in just three years from twenty twenty one
to twenty twenty four, and a lot of those come
(08:20):
from folks who are seeking mental health accommodation. So again,
these are not necessarily the folks who are using the wheelchair.
It's not the folks who are visually impaired, or if
these are folks saying I have anxiety, I have depression,
I have PTSD, I have some kind of mental or
emotional health condition, and I would like a work from
home accommodation to go with that. And I think that's
the sort of thing, right, because, as you said, you know,
(08:41):
the Trump White House in addition to scrutinizing DEI is
also banging the drama and get back to work, to
work to the office, right. And so that's where these
issues intersect at least.
Speaker 1 (08:50):
So what do you think about that are the gains
from the ADA at risk? Right now?
Speaker 10 (08:55):
I mean one hundred percent.
Speaker 12 (08:56):
There's legislation going on and lawsuits in about sixteen states
to pull back some of the real five or four
Rehabilitation Act mandates. There's there's a lot of conversations going
on right now, and there's a lot of fear factor
around disability and inclusion. That's false narratives, that is, you know,
(09:21):
leading us in a trajectory of absolutely having whiplash on
this conversation. And I agree, since COVID and working from
home and you know, inclusive work has been more attainable
for people with disabilities, we've seen so many strides happen.
And honestly, a lot of education, a lot of the
work that I do is in DEI and going into
(09:43):
companies and talking about the benefits of accessibility and the
innovations and the return and an investment on having a
shift and lens of looking at disability as an opportunity
in the workforce rather than this limiting thing that we
have to fear and pull back as you know, a
compliance have a financial obligation when it actually really drives
(10:03):
innovation and dollars in the door.
Speaker 1 (10:05):
So well, and I'm glad you mentioned workforce, Alicia, because
the numbers are pretty interesting that people with disabilities have
like half the employment rate of people without disabilities in
this country.
Speaker 12 (10:20):
I think it's less than that even, but yeah, it's
you know, the employment rate is low, but it was
kind of the trajectory was growing a little bit more.
But we have a lot of work to do in
the workplace, specifically to get to a place where employees
with disabilities feel safe to talk about their disability and
what accommodations they need, and for employers to look at
(10:42):
it as an opportunity to implement, you know, a piece
of accessibility technology that's going to allow their employees to
be x amount more productive and profitable for them. So
it's it's an absolute shift in the way that we
look at disability for sure.
Speaker 1 (10:57):
Yeah, we're going to get to some moment in a reminder,
you can reach us at eight four four four middle
that is eight four four four six four three three
five three. You can also reach out to us at
Listen to the Middle dot com. Tolliver. As we said earlier,
it has been thirty five years since the ADA was
signed into law.
Speaker 2 (11:18):
Yeah, here's some sound from that moment. This is President
George H. W. Bush in nineteen ninety.
Speaker 13 (11:24):
And now I sign legislation which takes a sledgehammer to
another wall, one which has for too many generations separated
Americans with disabilities from the freedom naked glimpse but not
grass And once again we rejoice as this barrier falls
for claiming together, we will not accept, we will not excuse,
(11:48):
we will not tolerate discrimination in America.
Speaker 1 (11:53):
For the gen Z listeners, George H. W. Bush was
a Republican, just like Donald Trump is a Republican, although
they do sound a little different, Tolliver on some of
these issues.
Speaker 2 (12:02):
You know what you're right? I mean, George kind of
sounds like in the middle here now in the middle.
Speaker 1 (12:07):
Right, We'll be right back with more of what the middle.
This is the Middle. I'm Jeremy Hobson. If you're just
tuning in the Middle as a national call in show,
we're focused on elevating voices from the middle, geographically, politically,
or philosophically, or maybe you just want to meet in
the middle. This hour, we're asking you what improvements are
still needed in society for people with disabilities. Tolliver, can
(12:28):
you give us the number again?
Speaker 3 (12:29):
Please?
Speaker 2 (12:29):
Yeah, it's eight four four four a middle. That's eight
four four four six four three three five three. You
can also write to us at Listen to the Middle
dot com. That's Listened to the Middle dot com. I'm
monitoring those emails. You can also write to us on
social media.
Speaker 1 (12:43):
I'm joined by Alicia Anderson at Disability, an inclusion advocate
and speaker, and Wall Street Journal columnist Callum Borscher's and
let's get to the phones. Jennifer is in Wawa Tosa, Wisconsin. Jennifer,
I hope, I said the name of your town right.
What do you think could be done to make things
better for people with disability?
Speaker 14 (13:01):
He did great on the pronunciation. Thanks for having me on.
I am a parent of a son, a sixteen year
old son with a disability, and there are a couple
of things that leap to mind. First of all, the
funding of Medicaid is seriously at risk. There are a
bunch of people in the disability community that get a
(13:24):
lot of services through Medicaid, including for my son especially.
He gets secondary medical insurance through Medicaid. He gets respite care,
access to camps, access to programs, he gets a job
coach for his first job this summer. All of these
things both help my family financially as well as allow
(13:46):
us to kind of stay afloat in the world. The
second thing from a disability perspective is because we're in
the thick of it. He's a sophomore in high school,
my son is and special education right now in Wisconsin specifically,
is funded at about a thirty percent level. We're advocating
(14:07):
here in Wisconsin to get that funded at at least
a sixty percent level. So basically what that means is
that our local school district has to come up with
seventy percent of the funding for our special education programs,
and some communities can't afford it, and other communities are
really bootstrapping it to find even the funding to do
(14:27):
the basics in this economy.
Speaker 1 (14:29):
Yeah, Jennifer, thank you very much for that call. Alicia.
Let's talk about the Medicaid part of that. First of all,
you know, we think of Medicaid as the government healthcare
for people are who are poor in this country, but
in fact, for people with disabilities, it could be crucial.
Speaker 12 (14:47):
Yeah, I mean, I think it's around seventeen million people
that have Our older adults and people with disabilities rely
on Medicaid for essential services that.
Speaker 10 (14:59):
Frankly keep them alp keep them going.
Speaker 12 (15:01):
And so cuts to that are significant in many different
ways and threaten access to really survival in life when
it comes to, you know, managing your disability or having
the resources that you need.
Speaker 10 (15:18):
There's a disability tax.
Speaker 12 (15:19):
It's expensive to be disabled, it's expensive to have insurance
and get through all of those challenges, and so this
is a really really important piece of advocacy that we
all need to be loud about right now.
Speaker 10 (15:33):
So we're protecting it. It's very important.
Speaker 1 (15:35):
Hey, kellum, what about the special education piece. We know that,
first of all, the Department of Education is being dismantled
as we speak, and that's going to have a big
impact on the amount of money that local school districts
have for things like special education.
Speaker 11 (15:49):
Yes, it will. And I think the piece that's interesting
with this too. I mean we're talking about the anniversary
of the Americans with Disabilities Act. But we're also twenty
some odd years after No Child Left Behind, And where
some of those things overlap is the push that many
states have made, partly because of No Child Left Behind
and some state level measures to assess and improve special
(16:11):
education outcomes. Is a bit of a backlash.
Speaker 9 (16:14):
Now.
Speaker 11 (16:15):
I'm calling you here from Massachusetts, for example, where we
just in the fall repealed the state standardized testing as
a graduation requirement, and there are mixed thoughts on what
that means for students with disabilities. On the one hand,
the argument is that we're taking away a barrier, right
because the students who often could not pass that exam
(16:35):
and were being denied their high school diplomas, they were
disproportionately students with disabilities. So that was the argument for
appealing it. On the flip side of that, though, the
concern is that will school districts sort of throw in
the towel, will they try as hard to educate these
children with intellectual disability. I don't have to pass if
they don't have to pass the test, right, And so
(16:55):
it's too early to know the answer to the at
but I think that's one of the things that.
Speaker 1 (16:59):
We're looking at here too.
Speaker 11 (17:01):
That's just one stage's example, but that is part of
the ripple effects here of as you said, perhaps dismantling
the entire Department of Education, and perhaps also some of
those No Child Left Behind loss. They've been on the
books now for twenty or so years.
Speaker 1 (17:13):
Let's go to Jorge, who is in San Antonio, Texas. Hi, Jorge,
welcome to the middle. Go ahead with your thoughts.
Speaker 7 (17:20):
Cool.
Speaker 15 (17:21):
No, so I came in halfway through the programming and
I'm dealing with them in the worst parts of their lives.
As far as like the Americans' Disabilities Act. Really, I
think part of our problem is like incredibly structural and foundational,
and the fact that most of our buildings aren't even
designed to accommodate disabled, let alone getting a stretcher.
Speaker 7 (17:40):
To the door.
Speaker 4 (17:41):
So I feel like if we as a nation started
building more empathetically and thinking about people's needs as they
get older, because everybody will become disabled at some point,
I think that'll actually help us to be more present
in the moment and then probably also start getting more
policies in place. And you know, I don't well hopefully kicking
(18:01):
people who are discriminating against the disabled and others in
the butt.
Speaker 16 (18:05):
Anyway, that was thought.
Speaker 4 (18:06):
Thank you for having me.
Speaker 1 (18:07):
Yeah, thanks, thanks for calling in. Let me get to
another caller and Kay, who's in Madison, Wisconsin. Hi, K,
welcome to the middle. Go ahead. What do you think
could be done to them?
Speaker 3 (18:17):
My agenda is this. I was born severely premature and
I ended up blind in my left eye. I've been
researching this. It seems to be what I was always
told that it has to do with lack of oxygen
and the incubator. But the households don't seem to know this.
And there are five people in the Senior Center here
in Madison. We were all born premature, and five of
(18:42):
us were buying totally or in one eye. And that's
out of a population the Senior center maybe three hundred people.
So you can do the math on that. Anyway. My
main problem in terms of walking in Madison is it's
a hilly area and the street lights are which means
if the sun is in back the light, the glare
(19:04):
just kills you. Also, to complicate my situation more, the
doctors never tell at least I never heard, and I
do pay attention that shingles is contagious so I have
a broken nose, partly because of a disabled injury, and
the shingles went in my right eye, so now I'm
kind of three quarters blind. So the Senior Center helps
(19:26):
out by letting me use the computer and they've adjusted
a black screen. But the street walking as ours, and
I've talked to people who say they who are fully
sighted have problems crossing the streets. I think the traffic
speech should probably be reduced. It's probably thirty miles an hour.
I used to work in traffic issues in New York City.
(19:49):
I would reduce it to twenty five. And even a
bicycle can probably kill you. And I'm not sure there's
a law that it's required to wear helmets.
Speaker 1 (19:57):
Yeah, okay, I thank you, thank you very much. That Alicia.
You know, when she talks about like the lights or
reducing the traffic speed, I'm sure there are a lot
of listeners who are like, wait, no, don't reduce the
traffic speed. I want to be able to go thirty
miles an hour. But these are the kinds of things
that I think maybe the majority of Americans don't think about.
But for an individual, that makes the difference between their
(20:19):
ability to walk from one part of town to another,
or just participate in normal life.
Speaker 12 (20:26):
I think for both the last two colors, we need
to understand that the world was not built for disabled people.
It was built for a very like typical, able bodied perspective.
And so there's all these challenges that we run into,
and how we do better in that is prioritizing universal
design approaches that are taking you know, multiple abilities, lived
(20:48):
experiences into you know, into the development of new infrastructure,
new cities, new schools, new workplaces. Were we're reducing a
lot of these barriers that are very isolated to this
perfect able bodied scenario. Because the fact is disability is
(21:09):
a part of human nature. We all become disabled in
and out of it throughout our lives, and we haven't
been historically building environments and infrastructure that accommodate you know,
diverse abilities. And so I think starting to look through
a different lens of how we're developing is the way
we start to solve these things, moving into like a
(21:31):
modern place of inclusion.
Speaker 1 (21:33):
M hmm, Tolliver, I know some comments are coming in online.
Speaker 2 (21:36):
There's so many I'm typing them up. Okay, So McDuffie
from Georgia and he stresses the state, not the country, says,
isn't this best left up for states to decide? Aren't
the individual states the best arbiters of what works for
their residents? Why does it have to be a government
led solution nationwide one ramp fits all solution.
Speaker 1 (21:54):
Let's go, let's go to calum on that. What about
that having the states make their own decisions about as
opposed to the federal government.
Speaker 11 (22:02):
I mean, I think the challenge there is that you'll
just get very inconsistent levels of accommodation, which we already
have to some degree. I think that partly comes down
to enforcement. But I am thinking of, you know, a
conversation I had with a woman named Justina PLoud and
she is she's the reigning Miss Wheelchair Louisiana, by the way,
and she says her whole her platform, as as Miss
Louisiana was increasing you know, accommodations for wheelchair users in
(22:26):
you know, sidewalks and public transit in her area. And she's,
you know, in her part of Louisiana where she lives,
it's still very spotty, you know, and she has a
hard time getting around. And so, you know, I understand
the state's rights argument. I also understand the argument from
people like Justina who say, why should I in Louisiana
have a poorer experience than somebody in New York City.
I would submit this might be an area of bipartisan agreement. Jeremy,
(22:49):
I mean, Alicia, you said the magic word a moment ago, infrastructure, right.
I mean you remember the first Trump White House every
other week was infrastructure week. You know, this might be
this might be an opportunity where you could actually get
some bipartisan agreement to you know, make some gains that
are really not political inside of the other.
Speaker 1 (23:04):
Let's go to Steve, who's in Edwardsville, Illinois. Hi, Steve,
welcome to the middle Go ahead, Well.
Speaker 8 (23:10):
Thank you for taking my call. I'm an attorney in
downstate Illinois, and I go to courthouses all over the state,
and many of the rural counties don't have accessible courtrooms.
The courthouses sometimes there are two stories and the courtrooms
are on the second story, and there are long flights
(23:30):
and steps. So I see an area of improvement for
accommodations in courthouses that they.
Speaker 1 (23:38):
That they the rural areas. I mean, just sort of
to the point that we were just talking about Steve
that the rural areas are not the same when it
comes to accessibility as maybe a major city.
Speaker 8 (23:48):
Right, And a lot of these rural counties are case strapped.
They don't have a lot in a lot of cases
the financial wherewithal So that's where you need a federal
program to step in where the counties. No, some of
these counties are barely getting by. And and uh so
that's my my area that I've seen in my daily
(24:11):
life where I see people who go to court and
can't get into the court room. Yeah, I don't see
what they do.
Speaker 1 (24:18):
Yeah, thank you, thank you very much for that. You know, Alicia,
I'm gonna come to you and ask you just about
the cost of of upgrading places. It's it's not cheap.
I remember a building I used to work in. They
expanded into another building and they had to create a
ramp between the two and it was either a ramp
that had a really low grade or they had to
(24:39):
build a little elevator just to go the you know,
five feet down from one side to the other. But
it's not cheap to do that. Do you need federal
money in order to make something like that happen? Or
can companies afford to do it.
Speaker 12 (24:52):
You know, I'd like to look at from another perspective,
is it's not cheap and it's a missed loss of
return on an investment. To not have accessibility, you're leaving
out a massive population to come in and be consumers
to spend money to participate.
Speaker 10 (25:10):
And so if you have to spend.
Speaker 12 (25:12):
X amount of dollars on, let's, for your example, a ramp,
how many more customers consumers do you bring in the door.
It's innovative to have accessibility implemented from a philosophical standpoint
in an organization, company infrastructure, because it allows more bodies
to participate. And I think that's an old tired way
(25:35):
to look at accessibility. Money delays dollars, What about the
human being? It's going to allow in to start spending
and engaging. And I think that's a shift and lens
that we need to start to have.
Speaker 1 (25:49):
Well, and callum, you're at the Wall Street Journal. You've
talked to companies about this kind of thing. Which mindset
do they have on this issue?
Speaker 11 (25:56):
Yeah, I mean it is mixed, You're right. I mean
they do see the dollar signs right when it comes
to some big ticket upgrades But Alicia makes a great
point about the business term is opportunity cost?
Speaker 9 (26:06):
Right?
Speaker 11 (26:06):
What opportunity are you losing out on by not making
your workplace accessible to all the talent that is out there.
I think this is actually one of the potential, you know,
double edged swords of you know, the zoom world that
we live in now, where some workplaces and other buildings
perhaps as well. We heard from a caller about I
think it was Steve calling in about the courthouse access.
(26:29):
But sometimes, you know, the thought can be, well, we
don't have to make the building so accessible. The accommodation
can simply be we'll do a virtual hearing, for example.
And I'm not sure that's quite going far enough. I mean,
that's a nice short term solution, but the building itself
ought to be accessible as well. And I just make
one other point on this too, which is that there's
lower hanging fruit even before you get to those big
upgrades and installing the elevators and the ramps. How about
(26:50):
making sure that the stuff you already have is working.
I mean, Alicia, what's the percentage of time when you
try to go through a door to some building you
hit the wheelchair button for the door to open. What
percentage of time does it actually work for you?
Speaker 10 (27:03):
Oh, that's a really good question.
Speaker 12 (27:04):
I mean there's definitely some user error and faulty buttons,
so I don't know that statistic.
Speaker 11 (27:10):
But I mean anecdotally. I don't mean that hard number,
but the point, but how about just making sure that
your buttons always work? I guess you know what I mean.
If you like, you're already already have it, you're already
in compliance whatnot. But howbo just making sure that it's
maintained and working properly? You know, I think there's little
stuff like that that businesses can do before they think
about what's the big expense of installing a new Ramper elevator.
Speaker 1 (27:30):
By the way, Alicia, how do you feel about people
who clearly have like a really high end dog that
they take on a plane and it doesn't really seem
like that's a service animal, but they're getting away with
it anyway. I mean, does that hurt the ability for
companies to know? I don't do that, but does that
hurt the ability for companies to you know, make things
(27:51):
accessible when people, in my view would abuse it?
Speaker 12 (27:55):
Yeah, I mean obviously there's abuse in everything. Also, you know,
try to look from the perspective of even if it
looks like they're abusing, we actually don't know what's going
on with somebody unless we're having the conversation. So I
think those assumptions are a little bit dangerous, and they
can lead down the path of creating more bias and
(28:17):
stigma towards something that might not actually be an you know,
taking advantage of something.
Speaker 10 (28:22):
So I think it has to go further than just
looking and going, oh, doc, I don't know. I'm not
so sure.
Speaker 12 (28:28):
That that's necessary. There's potentially something and more than likely
something that is going on there that you know, it's you.
Speaker 10 (28:37):
Know, good to go.
Speaker 1 (28:38):
Assume best intentions is what you're saying.
Speaker 12 (28:41):
At the heart of inclusion typically, and that you're always
going to find somebody something that is taken advantage. That's
not a reason to not have these programs in place
and advancing them because there's so much value in it.
Speaker 1 (28:57):
So well, Tolliver. One of the trailblazers of disability rights
in this country was activist Judith Human, who passed away
in twenty twenty three.
Speaker 2 (29:04):
Yeah, she delivered some powerful words in the nineteen eighty
eight Senate hearing on discrimination on the basis of disability.
Speaker 17 (29:10):
When I was five, my mother proudly pushed my wheelchair
to our local public school, where I was promptly refused
admission because the principal rule that I was quote a
fire hazard end quote. I was forced to go onto
home instruction, receiving one hour of education twice a week
for three and a half years. Was this the America
(29:30):
of my parents' dreams? My entrance into mainstream society was
blocked by discrimination and segregation.
Speaker 1 (29:39):
Judith Human was known as the mother of the disability
rights movement, and I encourage people go online and look
up some of these videos of her. It's pretty amazing
to watch. We'll be right back with more of the middle.
This is the Middle. I'm Jeremy Hobson. In this hour,
we're asking you what improvements are still needed in society
for people with disabilities, thirty five years after the Americans
(30:01):
with Disabilities Act was signed into law. You can call
us at eight four four four Middle. That's eight four
four four six four three three five three. My guess
are Wall Street Journal columnist Colin Borscher's and Alicia Anderson,
a disability and inclusion advocate and speaker. The phone lines
are full, So let's get to Pat in Chicago. Hi, Pat,
go ahead.
Speaker 9 (30:19):
Yeah, I represent a blind person. I'm a lawyer, and
he was trying to get the right to circulate petitions
for candidates and for issues, referendum issues digitally. During COVID,
that number of states allowed that for everybody, but they
(30:39):
wouldn't allow it for people with disabilities or folks who
couldn't get out in the street corner. And whether it's
a wheelchair of they're blind, they under the law they
couldn't witness the signature the old fashioned way or the
conventional way. So digital signatures worked for buying a house
or your health records else, but they don't seem to
(31:03):
work for politics, and it really excludes lots and lots
of people with disabilities from being able to participate fully
in our government.
Speaker 1 (31:12):
Yeah. I'm glad you brought that up, Pat, because I
have a very good friend who is blind, and I've
been with him at you know, buying a coffee and
he's got to basically trust the cashier if he uses
a credit card to charge him the right amount. He
can't see what's showing up on that screen. You know,
does your client have other issues besides this about circulating petitions.
Speaker 9 (31:36):
Well, he's head of an organization center for independent living
and he has a huge database that he communicates with
all the time of people with disabilities. But when it
comes to putting a candidate on the ballot by signing
a petition, putting a referendum issue on the ballot, the
law as it currently exists requires a wet signature that
(32:00):
you must personally witness, which is impossible if you're fine.
And the law can be changed. What they did in Massachusetts,
New Jersey and Maryland during covid IS they allowed everybody
to have digital signatures and it turned out to be
more secure than the old fashioned way of what signatures.
(32:22):
And here in Illinois, we ought to have the same
opportunity for people with disabilities. And it's not just blind folks.
It could be somebody who can't get out in a
street corner and gets frightensures, but they communicate with their
own digital database about an issue or a candidate they
believe it.
Speaker 1 (32:40):
Pat thank you very much for that, And callum, I'm
going to come to you and mention also that we
are a country that doesn't make our dollar bills different
sizes so that people who can't see what's on them.
Like other countries, like the euro you know, you get
a five euro bill and a twenty and they're different sizes.
We don't do that in this country. What about that?
Speaker 11 (33:02):
It's a good question. I didn't really know much about
this year, I mean until I started looking into it
this week. And the US Bureau of Engraving has taken
a different approach to this. They're apparently developing I guess
what we'd call like a braille currency, like you know,
raised tactile bills, but we're not expecting the first one
(33:24):
to come out until twenty twenty six. The first ten
dollars note is on schedule for next.
Speaker 1 (33:29):
Year, apparently.
Speaker 11 (33:30):
In the meanwhile, though, the Bureau Engraving and Printing has
distributed more than one hundred thousand currency readers. They say
this is like a standalone device the people who are
visually impaired can use to read bills in the absence
of something tactile. And they've also just as of March
of this year, they've also got this mobile app with
almost two hundred thousand downloads that basically turns your smartphone
(33:54):
into a currency reader as well. So they're going with
a more digital, high tech solution. I guess you can say,
then the enlarged note itself.
Speaker 1 (34:03):
Another caller from Chicago, that's not the Pope, but Allegra
is with one of this with that's from Chicago.
Speaker 18 (34:10):
Allegra, go ahead, okay, well, thank you so much for
your piece.
Speaker 19 (34:15):
I'm really glad that we're talking about this. I'm a
special education feacher.
Speaker 18 (34:19):
I have been for over.
Speaker 20 (34:20):
Twenty years, and one of the things I was thinking
might be helpful for people to know is that something
that we can do, just as to the things in neighbors,
if we're able, is to shovel the entire.
Speaker 19 (34:36):
Sidewalk during the winter.
Speaker 18 (34:39):
Sometimes people just shovel like what their shovel holds, which
is about half the sidewalk. But if you're a real user,
that doesn't help you get down the street and it
helps you stay in bound.
Speaker 19 (34:53):
So it doesn't really have to do with policy or anything,
but it's just something that I always wish we would do.
And also to look out to the curb cuts, like
if you're shoveling and you live by the road, or
are you just like getting exercise in the winter, like
to check out your curve cuts and think about because
(35:14):
a person using a wheelchair get down the street.
Speaker 6 (35:17):
In the wind right.
Speaker 1 (35:19):
Yeah, Aligra, thank you, thank you for bringing that up. Alicia.
I mean, you you live on the West coast, so
you probably don't have to deal with snow, but I'm
sure this has come up in your conversations as an advocate.
Speaker 10 (35:33):
Yeah.
Speaker 12 (35:34):
I mean, I think to her point is, let's be
aware of our environment and what the collective is kind
of going through and navigating, and how do we make
the world work again more universally that we're thinking about
creating paths that work right, whether it's shoveling snow or
(35:55):
you know, creating universal access somewhere.
Speaker 10 (35:58):
I lived in Europe and did a master's program over there,
and that's where.
Speaker 12 (36:02):
I really learned how to come together collaboratively and find
paths to access when accessibility was very, very limited, and
it takes someone like this woman.
Speaker 10 (36:15):
I'm so sorry, I don't remember your name.
Speaker 12 (36:16):
I apologize, but you know, Allegra seeing something and then
also like on the disabled person's perspective, like how do
we come together and find a path forward that works
and so like that was a perfect example of just
being aware of environments that might be limiting and how
can we, like as a community, solve for problems.
Speaker 1 (36:41):
Jonah is calling from Kimberly, Wisconsin. Hi, Jonah, what do
you think could be done to make things better for
people with disabilities?
Speaker 17 (36:49):
Hi?
Speaker 16 (36:49):
There, thanks for having me on. I think that in general,
human beings are looked at their value was determined by
how much money they canvert, how many hours they can work.
I think that's a really awful way to look at
all of humanity, and it's one of the big reasons
why disabled people people are looking down upon because they
(37:12):
have a harder time working in most you know, in
most jobs. But we shouldn't judge people solely for the
capital that they produce. We are human beings, you know.
So I think that the billionaire grindset, mindset, all all
(37:33):
that junk. I think it's one of the main reasons
that we don't treat disabled people very well.
Speaker 1 (37:39):
Hmm interesting, callum, what do you think about that?
Speaker 11 (37:43):
I think Jonah makes a great point. I think the
second piece of it two though, is that we also
sometimes underestimate, you know what, that that ability is.
Speaker 3 (37:50):
Right.
Speaker 11 (37:50):
So the layer I think the Jonah's talking about is,
let's not diminish the human value of people who may
not you know, air quotes contribute to society right in
the way that we conventionally think of it. But also
let's look for potential, uh in folks that you may
have overlooked in the past.
Speaker 21 (38:06):
Right.
Speaker 11 (38:06):
I think that's been one of the pleasant developments, uh,
you know, post pandemic again, partly because of the work
from home accommodation. I think the company sort of woke
up to the reality we saw the employment rate rise
for people with disabilities once you took away that by
a lot, for a lot of by a lot, you know,
of having to get get physically to the office, you know,
and it can be small stuff, Jeremy, I mean I'm thinking,
(38:27):
you know, like you know, I used to commute to
an office every day for example. Yeah, I tell you
something like in the winter just done on my body
having cerebral palsy, you know, sort of being kind of stiff,
and I just don't move as well in the winter,
you know, Like that kind of thing can take a
little bit of a toll. And so if you have
more absences, let's say, or you're not you're not your
full energetic self at the office, because you know, you
(38:48):
expended a lot of energy just getting there in the
first place. I think those are things that we don't
always see or think about. And and so when you
can make those accommodations like that to make sure that
you get the full potential out of somebody who has
a disability, I think that's sort of the next level
of what Jonah's talking about as.
Speaker 1 (39:02):
Well, let's get to eva. Oh get go ahead.
Speaker 12 (39:06):
Well, I'm just gonna say, and also keep it in
mind that making it the environment more dynamic, and you know,
it's not necessarily the disabled person not being able to
fully participate. It could be the environment in which is limiting.
That's the problem. It's not the disability, it's us needing
(39:27):
to be more adaptable and accommodating. I had somebody on
my podcast that is neurodiverse, and he's a building AI
and he's doing all these amazing things, and he.
Speaker 10 (39:35):
Works really, really, really really hard.
Speaker 12 (39:38):
And all he needs is like a quiet room for
thirty minutes to go rest his brain, and then he's
back at work hustling. And if we're not creating those
flexible environments for people with disabilities to check out for
a minute, or you know, have whatever accommodation that they need.
Then then there comes the problem. So it's it's the
(39:59):
accommodation that need to be more flexible within work environments.
Speaker 1 (40:03):
Yeah, Eva's in San Antonio, Texas. Hi, Eva, go ahead
with your thoughts.
Speaker 22 (40:08):
Hi, thank you for having me on the show. I
really appreciate it. So I have a sixteen year old
daughter who has depression. And I noticed that a lot
of people, just friends and family even who think disability
automatically think physical disability. They don't. I guess they don't
(40:32):
think of a mental disability. It's more like a secondary disability,
if that makes sense. And so we come across a
lot of you know, like with school for example, and
a lot of issues with that. And there are days
where she can't get out of bed. She has depression
that bad. We've you know, she's had self harm, et cetera,
(40:56):
et cetera. But in which way, The point is, what
I would like to see is a better education for
main stream quote unquote mainstream people, for the public to
understand that if you're disabled, it's not automatically a physical disability.
(41:18):
There's mental health disabilities. Yeah, and people need to be
educated and be more aware of that. And I'm afraid
that when she goes out into the workforce, I mean,
she's sixteen, known she's going to go find a job,
and then there are days where she can't function because
of that depression and then lose the job. And I
(41:40):
wish there would be a better education for people to understand.
Speaker 1 (41:44):
Yeah, especially yeah, Alicia, what do you think of people
who there are so many I mean we mentioned more
than seventy million Americans identify as having some kind of disability,
and many of those would not be visible disabilities.
Speaker 10 (41:56):
Yeah, I mean most of them are not.
Speaker 12 (41:58):
And the girl in the world, Sure, the wilchair has
been the symbol, but it's actually a very small percentage
of people who have disabilities like mine that you can
see very clearly. And it is it's education, awareness, and
continued action on what we learn to create the knowledge
of understanding that disability is non apparent and you know,
(42:25):
from chronic illness to neurodiversity to mental health like all
these things that have you know, and creating work environments
that feel safe and secure for somebody to raise their hand.
Speaker 10 (42:36):
And say I feel this way, this is what I need.
Speaker 12 (42:39):
That's what we need to start to create and continue
to build on, not pull back from. So education awareness
is key in all of this.
Speaker 11 (42:49):
Kellum, I would just add that there's this mindset shift
that Eve is talking about is a work in progress
within the community of people who have disabilities as well,
and I think that's important to know as well. You know,
I'm thinking of a decade ago, Jeremy, in my younger
fitter days, when I was rowing, I used to train
with some really high level like paralympic rower types, and
(43:10):
we're talking about sometimes people who are you know, they
got legs blown off in a rock or something, or
they have you know, spine of bifida, and and for
folks like that, I will tell you there is a
little bit of eyebrow raising when they hear about somebody
who says, well, I can't go do such and such
because I have anxiety or I have depression. Not everyone,
(43:32):
but I think that that's a real thing, you know,
for people who have a very big physical impairment. Sometimes
those folks also it's not just able bodied folks. Sometimes
those folks too have a hard time recognizing the complexity
of mental and emotional disabilities as well. So I just
think that's important to note as well, this is a
work in progress for all of us.
Speaker 1 (43:51):
Yeah, Nathan is calling from Tampa, Florida. Hi, Nathan, what
do you think could be done to improve things for
people with disabilities in this country?
Speaker 7 (43:59):
I agree in the dyslexic I grew up with dyslexia
and I was putting SLD around, uh first.
Speaker 1 (44:08):
Grade sl SLD is what.
Speaker 7 (44:14):
Wearing disabilities.
Speaker 21 (44:15):
They've finally changed the labels since then. I mean, honestly,
it was it wasn't probably still is an experimental program
as they learn more about the disability. I'm sure it's
changed and changed names, et cetera.
Speaker 7 (44:32):
But I I always wondered, you know, like like like
what kind of fact this has on the population.
Speaker 6 (44:41):
And I've always wondered like outside populations like Japan or
other nations and and how that's affected them. But one
time I was listening to Bill More and there was
a guy talking about talking about, uh this, Apparently there's
(45:01):
a large number of people in the in the prison
population that are dyslexic. I think it's ever had I'd
have to look at it right, and I'd have.
Speaker 21 (45:14):
To It's an alarming number.
Speaker 7 (45:19):
And I've always been the you know, of the UH
school that you should prevent instead of trying to clean
up something, you should prevent it.
Speaker 1 (45:32):
Yeah, I think we I think we've got it there,
you know, Alicia. I think one of the things that
he that he brings up there is that, you know,
maybe people can't make it in society because of their
disability and end up in a prison situation or or
end up in a situation that is that Is that
a problem that you're seeing.
Speaker 12 (45:55):
I mean, I think that that's an I mean, I'm
sure that's a percentage of a certain amount of people,
but there's so many other narratives around disability that we're
needing to project into the society. About the possibility of
the lived experience. Honestly, that's there's going to be a
(46:16):
percentage in every population for what you just described. But
I think it's it's starting to have the conversations as
well of the power of the lived experience and what
we bring into the community and into the world.
Speaker 1 (46:35):
Callum, just a few seconds left here. Let me give
you the last word. What do you see as the
biggest obstacle to better inclusion in society people with disabilities?
Is it about as we've been hearing all these colleges.
Is it about stigma, Is it about infrastructure? Is it
about lack of understanding?
Speaker 16 (46:50):
It's some of all those things.
Speaker 11 (46:51):
I guess the biggest thing I would say is is
maybe an inability to see the big picture. You know,
think about that lost call.
Speaker 5 (46:57):
You know.
Speaker 11 (46:57):
Maybe ending up in prison is the extreme example, but
maybe the more likely scenario is if we don't include
and accommodate disabilities early on, maybe something doesn't end up
in prison, But do they end up on Medicaid later on?
Do they end up on SNAP benefits later on? It
is if you don't like paying for the special education
services now, you're really not gonna like paying for the
(47:18):
Medicaid and the SNAP and other accommodations down the line.
Isn't it better to invest in folks early on and
bring everyone into the fold of our society so they
can be the fullest versions of themselves, contribute the very
best they can at whatever ability level they have. And
I think that ability to see the big picture will
make all of us more maybe a little bit more
generous with one another and a little bit more empathetic
(47:40):
as well.
Speaker 1 (47:41):
That is Caluin Borscher, as a commist for the Wall
Street Journal. We've also been speaking with Alicia Anderson, a
disability an inclusion advocate and speaker. Thanks so much to
both of you for joining us. Thank you, and don't
forget the Middle as available as a podcast in partnership
with iHeart Podcasts on the iHeart Apple wherever you listen
to podcasts and come in to your feet. In the
next few days an episode of our weekly podcast this
Extra One Thing Trump Did. We'll talk about signal Gate
(48:03):
and more of what's happening in Pete Hegseth's Pentagon, and
next week we'll be right back here asking you how
the tariffs are affecting you.
Speaker 2 (48:11):
As always, you can call in at eight four four
four Middle that's eight four four four six four three
three five three, or you can reach out at Listen
to the Middle dot com, where you can also sign
up for our free weekly newsletter and find Middle merch
where every dollar goes right back into the show.
Speaker 1 (48:24):
I am Jeremy Hobson, and I'll talk to you next week.
Welcome to the Middle. I'm Jeremy Hobson, along with our
house DJ Tolliver and Tolliver the Middle of the country
has a new claim to fame.
Speaker 2 (00:14):
Does it have anything to do with Corn?
Speaker 1 (00:16):
No, it is that Hope is from Chicago. How about that?
Speaker 2 (00:21):
Okay, That's where I'm from.
Speaker 1 (00:22):
Yeah, well I was. You know, Instagram is having fun
with this. I saw that. Now Michael Jordan is going
to be named a saint and Oprah will be the
Queen of England as resulted this. So anyway, we are
going to let other shows talk about that development and
the ones that I just made up there, but we
are going to focus this hour on the seventy million
Americans who report having a disability. It has been thirty
(00:45):
five years since the Americans with Disabilities Act was signed
into law by President George H. W.
Speaker 3 (00:49):
Bush.
Speaker 1 (00:50):
It was a landmark piece of legislation that banned discrimination
against people with disabilities and mandated reasonable accommodations in public
buildings and transportation. So, thirty five years later, what is
still needed in society for people with disabilities? And are
the victories from the ADA at risk? We're taking your
calls in a moment at eight four four four middle
that's eight four four four six four three three five three.
(01:13):
But first last week on the show, we were talking
about how government can work better with the co author
of the new book Abundance. Here are some of the
voicemails we got after the show.
Speaker 4 (01:22):
Hi, my name is ad Navarede and I am calling
from Los Angeles regarding red tape. That you're in Los Angeles.
Speaker 5 (01:29):
We have a lot of rules and building in safety,
city planning departments that are really at the root of
limitations for our community. My name is Deddie. I'm from Manchester, Tennessee.
I know it's a difficult job to do a government
budget as large as America's, but I just think it
would be better if we got back to instilling public
(01:52):
service and people who run for office instead of all
of the politics that we are dis manipulated with.
Speaker 6 (02:00):
Hi.
Speaker 7 (02:00):
My name is Jim Sharp from Brighton, Massachusetts.
Speaker 5 (02:03):
I have a very difficult time with the Trump but honestly,
he's really taken.
Speaker 8 (02:07):
The helm and pushed things.
Speaker 5 (02:09):
I think that Democrats should put together a project twenty
twenty nine or twenty twenty seven.
Speaker 9 (02:14):
List of stuff more action, you know, boldness.
Speaker 1 (02:18):
Well, thanks to everyone who called in And you can
hear that entire episode on our podcast in partnership with
iHeart Podcasts, on the iHeart app or wherever you listen
to podcasts. And of course we've got our weekly extra
One Thing Trump Did podcast on the Middle podcast feed.
So now to our question this hour, thirty five years
after the Americans with Disabilities Act was signed into law,
what improvements are still needed for people with disabilities? Tolliver
(02:39):
the phone number again. Please you can.
Speaker 2 (02:42):
Call us at eight four four four Middle, that's eight
four four four six four three three five three, or
you can write to us a listen to the Middle
dot com. You can also comment on our live stream
on YouTube.
Speaker 1 (02:52):
Joining me this hour Alicia Anderson, a disability and inclusion
advocate and speaker. Alicia, Welcome to the Middle.
Speaker 10 (02:58):
Thank you for having me. I'm excited.
Speaker 1 (03:01):
And Calum Borscher's is also here, a columnist for The
Wall Street Journal who has covered this issue extensively. Calum,
great to have you.
Speaker 11 (03:06):
As well, So good to be with you, Jeremy, thanks
for having me.
Speaker 1 (03:10):
And before we get to the phones, Calum, what do
we mean by disabled in twenty twenty five? It's a
pretty broad definition.
Speaker 11 (03:18):
Yeah, that's a harder question to answer than you might think.
I think that when we think of the Americans with
Disabilities to Act, at least as maybe it was conceived
in nineteen ninety, we think of maybe people who were blind,
people who were deaf, people who use a wheelchair, some
of those classic easily recognizable disabilities. But the definition today
is much broader than fact. In fact, the Centers for
Disease Control and Prevention uses one like this. It includes
(03:41):
anybody who reports difficulty concentrating, making decisions, or venturing out
alone because of a physical, mental, or emotional condition. So
that is how you get some seventy million people, as
you said, jeremy self identifying as having a disability. It's
one in four American adults, so it's a very large
of the population.
Speaker 1 (04:01):
And Alicia, you were born with something called sacral a genesis,
which is an underdevelopment of the spinal cord. You use
a wheelchair. What kind of a difference has the Americans
with Disabilities Act made for you personally?
Speaker 12 (04:14):
It's I mean, we've come a long way in the
last fifty years or so of the disability rights movement,
and when this legislation started to appear in our society
and it's it's the gateway to participating in life or not.
You know, it is absolutely imperative for people with any
type of disability, whether it's apparent physical disability like mine
(04:36):
or you know, the eighty eighty five percent of people
that have non apparent disabilities to have the accommodations and
the accessibility to access life and produce. And so it's
the difference between freedom or exclusion. Honestly, it's really really
important this legislation is preserved and advanced. And yeah, it's
(04:59):
been a it's been a massive piece of independence for
me in my life.
Speaker 1 (05:04):
Well, and when you think about all the places you
go in your life, what percentage of the places would
you say have the accessibility that you need right now?
Speaker 12 (05:13):
You know, there's a good we're pretty lucky in the
United States that we have this type of legislation.
Speaker 10 (05:19):
Is it perfect?
Speaker 12 (05:19):
No. I just had somebody on my podcast. I've bought
a podcast called Pushing Forward with Alicia, and of the
statistics of almost you know, one point eighty five billion
people excuse me, worldwide having a disability, only about sixteen
percent have access like physical accessibility to life, and a
(05:40):
lot of that happens in the United States, So we
have a lot of privilege here, but the Americans with
Disabilities Act and other legislations.
Speaker 10 (05:50):
Are the entry point, not the end.
Speaker 12 (05:53):
And we're living in a modern day where we need
to continue to advance these things as much as.
Speaker 1 (05:58):
Possibleition to covering this issue, you also have several palsy.
What kind of a difference has the eighty A made
for you?
Speaker 11 (06:06):
Yeah, I look, nineteen ninety was a big year for me, Jeremy.
I mean, I was, I was three years old. I
was they had my first major leg surgery, spent several
months in like a full body cast. I picked purple,
by the way for my cast color go bold, you know,
I mean, if you're going to be fully covered, right,
you really go for it. And of course nineteen ninety
the Americans Disabilities Act, as you say, and so these
were two really formative experiences for me as well. And
(06:28):
as Alicia said, I think you really can't overstate the
degree to which that has, you know, shaped access for
people in our generation. And it's interesting to compare notes
with folks, you know, who did not live under the
ADA earlier. You know, I'm thinking Jeremy of a conversation
I had with a paralympian, you know, who competed in
the two thousand and two thousand and four Paralympics. So
(06:49):
in his youth, you know, well before the Americans with
Disabilities Act, and even he was graduating from college, he
told me before the Americans with Disabilities Act, and he's
he's legally blind, and he told me that one of
his first job offers was rescinded once the employer found
out that he was blind, and there was no legal
protection against that sort of thing at the time.
Speaker 1 (07:09):
So when you look at what's happening right now, and
since Donald Trump has come back into office, they've gotten
rid of the sign language interpreter at the White House,
the web page on accessibility has disappeared. The administration has
banned DEI initiatives, which certainly affect people with disabilities. Are
the gains callum of the ADA at risk.
Speaker 11 (07:31):
Well, some of them could be, and I think especially
for folks who have, as Alisha said, kind of those
invisible disabilities.
Speaker 3 (07:37):
Right.
Speaker 11 (07:37):
So one of the things that really piqued my interest
in my recent reporting is the recent uptick in people
in the workplace. My column is focused every week on
the workplace, people in the workplace asking for accommodations, and
this is partly, not exclusively, but partly a post pandemic phenomenon, right,
I mean, the ability to work from home was really
a game changer for a lot of Americans with disabilities.
(07:58):
And so when you look at the data from twenty
twenty one to twenty twenty four, how many Americans are
asking for disability accommodations at work and making a complaint
to the Equal Employment Opportunity Commission if they actually don't
get what they're asking for. You've seen a fifty one
percent spike in just three years from twenty twenty one
to twenty twenty four, and a lot of those come
(08:20):
from folks who are seeking mental health accommodation. So again,
these are not necessarily the folks who are using the wheelchair.
It's not the folks who are visually impaired, or if
these are folks saying I have anxiety, I have depression,
I have PTSD, I have some kind of mental or
emotional health condition, and I would like a work from
home accommodation to go with that. And I think that's
the sort of thing, right, because, as you said, you know,
(08:41):
the Trump White House in addition to scrutinizing DEI is
also banging the drama and get back to work, to
work to the office, right. And so that's where these
issues intersect at least.
Speaker 1 (08:50):
So what do you think about that are the gains
from the ADA at risk? Right now?
Speaker 10 (08:55):
I mean one hundred percent.
Speaker 12 (08:56):
There's legislation going on and lawsuits in about sixteen states
to pull back some of the real five or four
Rehabilitation Act mandates. There's there's a lot of conversations going
on right now, and there's a lot of fear factor
around disability and inclusion. That's false narratives, that is, you know,
(09:21):
leading us in a trajectory of absolutely having whiplash on
this conversation. And I agree, since COVID and working from
home and you know, inclusive work has been more attainable
for people with disabilities, we've seen so many strides happen.
And honestly, a lot of education, a lot of the
work that I do is in DEI and going into
(09:43):
companies and talking about the benefits of accessibility and the
innovations and the return and an investment on having a
shift and lens of looking at disability as an opportunity
in the workforce rather than this limiting thing that we
have to fear and pull back as you know, a
compliance have a financial obligation when it actually really drives
(10:03):
innovation and dollars in the door.
Speaker 1 (10:05):
So well, and I'm glad you mentioned workforce, Alicia, because
the numbers are pretty interesting that people with disabilities have
like half the employment rate of people without disabilities in
this country.
Speaker 12 (10:20):
I think it's less than that even, but yeah, it's
you know, the employment rate is low, but it was
kind of the trajectory was growing a little bit more.
But we have a lot of work to do in
the workplace, specifically to get to a place where employees
with disabilities feel safe to talk about their disability and
what accommodations they need, and for employers to look at
(10:42):
it as an opportunity to implement, you know, a piece
of accessibility technology that's going to allow their employees to
be x amount more productive and profitable for them. So
it's it's an absolute shift in the way that we
look at disability for sure.
Speaker 1 (10:57):
Yeah, we're going to get to some moment in a reminder,
you can reach us at eight four four four middle
that is eight four four four six four three three
five three. You can also reach out to us at
Listen to the Middle dot com. Tolliver. As we said earlier,
it has been thirty five years since the ADA was
signed into law.
Speaker 2 (11:18):
Yeah, here's some sound from that moment. This is President
George H. W. Bush in nineteen ninety.
Speaker 13 (11:24):
And now I sign legislation which takes a sledgehammer to
another wall, one which has for too many generations separated
Americans with disabilities from the freedom naked glimpse but not
grass And once again we rejoice as this barrier falls
for claiming together, we will not accept, we will not excuse,
(11:48):
we will not tolerate discrimination in America.
Speaker 1 (11:53):
For the gen Z listeners, George H. W. Bush was
a Republican, just like Donald Trump is a Republican, although
they do sound a little different, Tolliver on some of
these issues.
Speaker 2 (12:02):
You know what you're right? I mean, George kind of
sounds like in the middle here now in the middle.
Speaker 1 (12:07):
Right, We'll be right back with more of what the middle.
This is the Middle. I'm Jeremy Hobson. If you're just
tuning in the Middle as a national call in show,
we're focused on elevating voices from the middle, geographically, politically,
or philosophically, or maybe you just want to meet in
the middle. This hour, we're asking you what improvements are
still needed in society for people with disabilities. Tolliver, can
(12:28):
you give us the number again?
Speaker 3 (12:29):
Please?
Speaker 2 (12:29):
Yeah, it's eight four four four a middle. That's eight
four four four six four three three five three. You
can also write to us at Listen to the Middle
dot com. That's Listened to the Middle dot com. I'm
monitoring those emails. You can also write to us on
social media.
Speaker 1 (12:43):
I'm joined by Alicia Anderson at Disability, an inclusion advocate
and speaker, and Wall Street Journal columnist Callum Borscher's and
let's get to the phones. Jennifer is in Wawa Tosa, Wisconsin. Jennifer,
I hope, I said the name of your town right.
What do you think could be done to make things
better for people with disability?
Speaker 14 (13:01):
He did great on the pronunciation. Thanks for having me on.
I am a parent of a son, a sixteen year
old son with a disability, and there are a couple
of things that leap to mind. First of all, the
funding of Medicaid is seriously at risk. There are a
bunch of people in the disability community that get a
(13:24):
lot of services through Medicaid, including for my son especially.
He gets secondary medical insurance through Medicaid. He gets respite care,
access to camps, access to programs, he gets a job
coach for his first job this summer. All of these
things both help my family financially as well as allow
(13:46):
us to kind of stay afloat in the world. The
second thing from a disability perspective is because we're in
the thick of it. He's a sophomore in high school,
my son is and special education right now in Wisconsin specifically,
is funded at about a thirty percent level. We're advocating
(14:07):
here in Wisconsin to get that funded at at least
a sixty percent level. So basically what that means is
that our local school district has to come up with
seventy percent of the funding for our special education programs,
and some communities can't afford it, and other communities are
really bootstrapping it to find even the funding to do
(14:27):
the basics in this economy.
Speaker 1 (14:29):
Yeah, Jennifer, thank you very much for that call. Alicia.
Let's talk about the Medicaid part of that. First of all,
you know, we think of Medicaid as the government healthcare
for people are who are poor in this country, but
in fact, for people with disabilities, it could be crucial.
Speaker 12 (14:47):
Yeah, I mean, I think it's around seventeen million people
that have Our older adults and people with disabilities rely
on Medicaid for essential services that.
Speaker 10 (14:59):
Frankly keep them alp keep them going.
Speaker 12 (15:01):
And so cuts to that are significant in many different
ways and threaten access to really survival in life when
it comes to, you know, managing your disability or having
the resources that you need.
Speaker 10 (15:18):
There's a disability tax.
Speaker 12 (15:19):
It's expensive to be disabled, it's expensive to have insurance
and get through all of those challenges, and so this
is a really really important piece of advocacy that we
all need to be loud about right now.
Speaker 10 (15:33):
So we're protecting it. It's very important.
Speaker 1 (15:35):
Hey, kellum, what about the special education piece. We know that,
first of all, the Department of Education is being dismantled
as we speak, and that's going to have a big
impact on the amount of money that local school districts
have for things like special education.
Speaker 11 (15:49):
Yes, it will. And I think the piece that's interesting
with this too. I mean we're talking about the anniversary
of the Americans with Disabilities Act. But we're also twenty
some odd years after No Child Left Behind, And where
some of those things overlap is the push that many
states have made, partly because of No Child Left Behind
and some state level measures to assess and improve special
(16:11):
education outcomes. Is a bit of a backlash.
Speaker 9 (16:14):
Now.
Speaker 11 (16:15):
I'm calling you here from Massachusetts, for example, where we
just in the fall repealed the state standardized testing as
a graduation requirement, and there are mixed thoughts on what
that means for students with disabilities. On the one hand,
the argument is that we're taking away a barrier, right
because the students who often could not pass that exam
(16:35):
and were being denied their high school diplomas, they were
disproportionately students with disabilities. So that was the argument for
appealing it. On the flip side of that, though, the
concern is that will school districts sort of throw in
the towel, will they try as hard to educate these
children with intellectual disability. I don't have to pass if
they don't have to pass the test, right, And so
(16:55):
it's too early to know the answer to the at
but I think that's one of the things that.
Speaker 1 (16:59):
We're looking at here too.
Speaker 11 (17:01):
That's just one stage's example, but that is part of
the ripple effects here of as you said, perhaps dismantling
the entire Department of Education, and perhaps also some of
those No Child Left Behind loss. They've been on the
books now for twenty or so years.
Speaker 1 (17:13):
Let's go to Jorge, who is in San Antonio, Texas. Hi, Jorge,
welcome to the middle. Go ahead with your thoughts.
Speaker 7 (17:20):
Cool.
Speaker 15 (17:21):
No, so I came in halfway through the programming and
I'm dealing with them in the worst parts of their lives.
As far as like the Americans' Disabilities Act. Really, I
think part of our problem is like incredibly structural and foundational,
and the fact that most of our buildings aren't even
designed to accommodate disabled, let alone getting a stretcher.
Speaker 7 (17:40):
To the door.
Speaker 4 (17:41):
So I feel like if we as a nation started
building more empathetically and thinking about people's needs as they
get older, because everybody will become disabled at some point,
I think that'll actually help us to be more present
in the moment and then probably also start getting more
policies in place. And you know, I don't well hopefully kicking
(18:01):
people who are discriminating against the disabled and others in
the butt.
Speaker 16 (18:05):
Anyway, that was thought.
Speaker 4 (18:06):
Thank you for having me.
Speaker 1 (18:07):
Yeah, thanks, thanks for calling in. Let me get to
another caller and Kay, who's in Madison, Wisconsin. Hi, K,
welcome to the middle. Go ahead. What do you think
could be done to them?
Speaker 3 (18:17):
My agenda is this. I was born severely premature and
I ended up blind in my left eye. I've been
researching this. It seems to be what I was always
told that it has to do with lack of oxygen
and the incubator. But the households don't seem to know this.
And there are five people in the Senior Center here
in Madison. We were all born premature, and five of
(18:42):
us were buying totally or in one eye. And that's
out of a population the Senior center maybe three hundred people.
So you can do the math on that. Anyway. My
main problem in terms of walking in Madison is it's
a hilly area and the street lights are which means
if the sun is in back the light, the glare
(19:04):
just kills you. Also, to complicate my situation more, the
doctors never tell at least I never heard, and I
do pay attention that shingles is contagious so I have
a broken nose, partly because of a disabled injury, and
the shingles went in my right eye, so now I'm
kind of three quarters blind. So the Senior Center helps
(19:26):
out by letting me use the computer and they've adjusted
a black screen. But the street walking as ours, and
I've talked to people who say they who are fully
sighted have problems crossing the streets. I think the traffic
speech should probably be reduced. It's probably thirty miles an hour.
I used to work in traffic issues in New York City.
(19:49):
I would reduce it to twenty five. And even a
bicycle can probably kill you. And I'm not sure there's
a law that it's required to wear helmets.
Speaker 1 (19:57):
Yeah, okay, I thank you, thank you very much. That Alicia.
You know, when she talks about like the lights or
reducing the traffic speed, I'm sure there are a lot
of listeners who are like, wait, no, don't reduce the
traffic speed. I want to be able to go thirty
miles an hour. But these are the kinds of things
that I think maybe the majority of Americans don't think about.
But for an individual, that makes the difference between their
(20:19):
ability to walk from one part of town to another,
or just participate in normal life.
Speaker 12 (20:26):
I think for both the last two colors, we need
to understand that the world was not built for disabled people.
It was built for a very like typical, able bodied perspective.
And so there's all these challenges that we run into,
and how we do better in that is prioritizing universal
design approaches that are taking you know, multiple abilities, lived
(20:48):
experiences into you know, into the development of new infrastructure,
new cities, new schools, new workplaces. Were we're reducing a
lot of these barriers that are very isolated to this
perfect able bodied scenario. Because the fact is disability is
(21:09):
a part of human nature. We all become disabled in
and out of it throughout our lives, and we haven't
been historically building environments and infrastructure that accommodate you know,
diverse abilities. And so I think starting to look through
a different lens of how we're developing is the way
we start to solve these things, moving into like a
(21:31):
modern place of inclusion.
Speaker 1 (21:33):
M hmm, Tolliver, I know some comments are coming in online.
Speaker 2 (21:36):
There's so many I'm typing them up. Okay, So McDuffie
from Georgia and he stresses the state, not the country, says,
isn't this best left up for states to decide? Aren't
the individual states the best arbiters of what works for
their residents? Why does it have to be a government
led solution nationwide one ramp fits all solution.
Speaker 1 (21:54):
Let's go, let's go to calum on that. What about
that having the states make their own decisions about as
opposed to the federal government.
Speaker 11 (22:02):
I mean, I think the challenge there is that you'll
just get very inconsistent levels of accommodation, which we already
have to some degree. I think that partly comes down
to enforcement. But I am thinking of, you know, a
conversation I had with a woman named Justina PLoud and
she is she's the reigning Miss Wheelchair Louisiana, by the way,
and she says her whole her platform, as as Miss
Louisiana was increasing you know, accommodations for wheelchair users in
(22:26):
you know, sidewalks and public transit in her area. And she's,
you know, in her part of Louisiana where she lives,
it's still very spotty, you know, and she has a
hard time getting around. And so, you know, I understand
the state's rights argument. I also understand the argument from
people like Justina who say, why should I in Louisiana
have a poorer experience than somebody in New York City.
I would submit this might be an area of bipartisan agreement. Jeremy,
(22:49):
I mean, Alicia, you said the magic word a moment ago, infrastructure, right.
I mean you remember the first Trump White House every
other week was infrastructure week. You know, this might be
this might be an opportunity where you could actually get
some bipartisan agreement to you know, make some gains that
are really not political inside of the other.
Speaker 1 (23:04):
Let's go to Steve, who's in Edwardsville, Illinois. Hi, Steve,
welcome to the middle Go ahead, Well.
Speaker 8 (23:10):
Thank you for taking my call. I'm an attorney in
downstate Illinois, and I go to courthouses all over the state,
and many of the rural counties don't have accessible courtrooms.
The courthouses sometimes there are two stories and the courtrooms
are on the second story, and there are long flights
(23:30):
and steps. So I see an area of improvement for
accommodations in courthouses that they.
Speaker 1 (23:38):
That they the rural areas. I mean, just sort of
to the point that we were just talking about Steve
that the rural areas are not the same when it
comes to accessibility as maybe a major city.
Speaker 8 (23:48):
Right, And a lot of these rural counties are case strapped.
They don't have a lot in a lot of cases
the financial wherewithal So that's where you need a federal
program to step in where the counties. No, some of
these counties are barely getting by. And and uh so
that's my my area that I've seen in my daily
(24:11):
life where I see people who go to court and
can't get into the court room. Yeah, I don't see
what they do.
Speaker 1 (24:18):
Yeah, thank you, thank you very much for that. You know, Alicia,
I'm gonna come to you and ask you just about
the cost of of upgrading places. It's it's not cheap.
I remember a building I used to work in. They
expanded into another building and they had to create a
ramp between the two and it was either a ramp
that had a really low grade or they had to
(24:39):
build a little elevator just to go the you know,
five feet down from one side to the other. But
it's not cheap to do that. Do you need federal
money in order to make something like that happen? Or
can companies afford to do it.
Speaker 12 (24:52):
You know, I'd like to look at from another perspective,
is it's not cheap and it's a missed loss of
return on an investment. To not have accessibility, you're leaving
out a massive population to come in and be consumers
to spend money to participate.
Speaker 10 (25:10):
And so if you have to spend.
Speaker 12 (25:12):
X amount of dollars on, let's, for your example, a ramp,
how many more customers consumers do you bring in the door.
It's innovative to have accessibility implemented from a philosophical standpoint
in an organization, company infrastructure, because it allows more bodies
to participate. And I think that's an old tired way
(25:35):
to look at accessibility. Money delays dollars, What about the
human being? It's going to allow in to start spending
and engaging. And I think that's a shift and lens
that we need to start to have.
Speaker 1 (25:49):
Well, and callum, you're at the Wall Street Journal. You've
talked to companies about this kind of thing. Which mindset
do they have on this issue?
Speaker 11 (25:56):
Yeah, I mean it is mixed, You're right. I mean
they do see the dollar signs right when it comes
to some big ticket upgrades But Alicia makes a great
point about the business term is opportunity cost?
Speaker 9 (26:06):
Right?
Speaker 11 (26:06):
What opportunity are you losing out on by not making
your workplace accessible to all the talent that is out there.
I think this is actually one of the potential, you know,
double edged swords of you know, the zoom world that
we live in now, where some workplaces and other buildings
perhaps as well. We heard from a caller about I
think it was Steve calling in about the courthouse access.
(26:29):
But sometimes, you know, the thought can be, well, we
don't have to make the building so accessible. The accommodation
can simply be we'll do a virtual hearing, for example.
And I'm not sure that's quite going far enough. I mean,
that's a nice short term solution, but the building itself
ought to be accessible as well. And I just make
one other point on this too, which is that there's
lower hanging fruit even before you get to those big
upgrades and installing the elevators and the ramps. How about
(26:50):
making sure that the stuff you already have is working.
I mean, Alicia, what's the percentage of time when you
try to go through a door to some building you
hit the wheelchair button for the door to open. What
percentage of time does it actually work for you?
Speaker 10 (27:03):
Oh, that's a really good question.
Speaker 12 (27:04):
I mean there's definitely some user error and faulty buttons,
so I don't know that statistic.
Speaker 11 (27:10):
But I mean anecdotally. I don't mean that hard number,
but the point, but how about just making sure that
your buttons always work? I guess you know what I mean.
If you like, you're already already have it, you're already
in compliance whatnot. But howbo just making sure that it's
maintained and working properly? You know, I think there's little
stuff like that that businesses can do before they think
about what's the big expense of installing a new Ramper elevator.
Speaker 1 (27:30):
By the way, Alicia, how do you feel about people
who clearly have like a really high end dog that
they take on a plane and it doesn't really seem
like that's a service animal, but they're getting away with
it anyway. I mean, does that hurt the ability for
companies to know? I don't do that, but does that
hurt the ability for companies to you know, make things
(27:51):
accessible when people, in my view would abuse it?
Speaker 12 (27:55):
Yeah, I mean obviously there's abuse in everything. Also, you know,
try to look from the perspective of even if it
looks like they're abusing, we actually don't know what's going
on with somebody unless we're having the conversation. So I
think those assumptions are a little bit dangerous, and they
can lead down the path of creating more bias and
(28:17):
stigma towards something that might not actually be an you know,
taking advantage of something.
Speaker 10 (28:22):
So I think it has to go further than just
looking and going, oh, doc, I don't know. I'm not
so sure.
Speaker 12 (28:28):
That that's necessary. There's potentially something and more than likely
something that is going on there that you know, it's you.
Speaker 10 (28:37):
Know, good to go.
Speaker 1 (28:38):
Assume best intentions is what you're saying.
Speaker 12 (28:41):
At the heart of inclusion typically, and that you're always
going to find somebody something that is taken advantage. That's
not a reason to not have these programs in place
and advancing them because there's so much value in it.
Speaker 1 (28:57):
So well, Tolliver. One of the trailblazers of disability rights
in this country was activist Judith Human, who passed away
in twenty twenty three.
Speaker 2 (29:04):
Yeah, she delivered some powerful words in the nineteen eighty
eight Senate hearing on discrimination on the basis of disability.
Speaker 17 (29:10):
When I was five, my mother proudly pushed my wheelchair
to our local public school, where I was promptly refused
admission because the principal rule that I was quote a
fire hazard end quote. I was forced to go onto
home instruction, receiving one hour of education twice a week
for three and a half years. Was this the America
(29:30):
of my parents' dreams? My entrance into mainstream society was
blocked by discrimination and segregation.
Speaker 1 (29:39):
Judith Human was known as the mother of the disability
rights movement, and I encourage people go online and look
up some of these videos of her. It's pretty amazing
to watch. We'll be right back with more of the middle.
This is the Middle. I'm Jeremy Hobson. In this hour,
we're asking you what improvements are still needed in society
for people with disabilities, thirty five years after the Americans
(30:01):
with Disabilities Act was signed into law. You can call
us at eight four four four Middle. That's eight four
four four six four three three five three. My guess
are Wall Street Journal columnist Colin Borscher's and Alicia Anderson,
a disability and inclusion advocate and speaker. The phone lines
are full, So let's get to Pat in Chicago. Hi, Pat,
go ahead.
Speaker 9 (30:19):
Yeah, I represent a blind person. I'm a lawyer, and
he was trying to get the right to circulate petitions
for candidates and for issues, referendum issues digitally. During COVID,
that number of states allowed that for everybody, but they
(30:39):
wouldn't allow it for people with disabilities or folks who
couldn't get out in the street corner. And whether it's
a wheelchair of they're blind, they under the law they
couldn't witness the signature the old fashioned way or the
conventional way. So digital signatures worked for buying a house
or your health records else, but they don't seem to
(31:03):
work for politics, and it really excludes lots and lots
of people with disabilities from being able to participate fully
in our government.
Speaker 1 (31:12):
Yeah. I'm glad you brought that up, Pat, because I
have a very good friend who is blind, and I've
been with him at you know, buying a coffee and
he's got to basically trust the cashier if he uses
a credit card to charge him the right amount. He
can't see what's showing up on that screen. You know,
does your client have other issues besides this about circulating petitions.
Speaker 9 (31:36):
Well, he's head of an organization center for independent living
and he has a huge database that he communicates with
all the time of people with disabilities. But when it
comes to putting a candidate on the ballot by signing
a petition, putting a referendum issue on the ballot, the
law as it currently exists requires a wet signature that
(32:00):
you must personally witness, which is impossible if you're fine.
And the law can be changed. What they did in Massachusetts,
New Jersey and Maryland during covid IS they allowed everybody
to have digital signatures and it turned out to be
more secure than the old fashioned way of what signatures.
(32:22):
And here in Illinois, we ought to have the same
opportunity for people with disabilities. And it's not just blind folks.
It could be somebody who can't get out in a
street corner and gets frightensures, but they communicate with their
own digital database about an issue or a candidate they
believe it.
Speaker 1 (32:40):
Pat thank you very much for that, And callum, I'm
going to come to you and mention also that we
are a country that doesn't make our dollar bills different
sizes so that people who can't see what's on them.
Like other countries, like the euro you know, you get
a five euro bill and a twenty and they're different sizes.
We don't do that in this country. What about that?
Speaker 11 (33:02):
It's a good question. I didn't really know much about
this year, I mean until I started looking into it
this week. And the US Bureau of Engraving has taken
a different approach to this. They're apparently developing I guess
what we'd call like a braille currency, like you know,
raised tactile bills, but we're not expecting the first one
(33:24):
to come out until twenty twenty six. The first ten
dollars note is on schedule for next.
Speaker 1 (33:29):
Year, apparently.
Speaker 11 (33:30):
In the meanwhile, though, the Bureau Engraving and Printing has
distributed more than one hundred thousand currency readers. They say
this is like a standalone device the people who are
visually impaired can use to read bills in the absence
of something tactile. And they've also just as of March
of this year, they've also got this mobile app with
almost two hundred thousand downloads that basically turns your smartphone
(33:54):
into a currency reader as well. So they're going with
a more digital, high tech solution. I guess you can say,
then the enlarged note itself.
Speaker 1 (34:03):
Another caller from Chicago, that's not the Pope, but Allegra
is with one of this with that's from Chicago.
Speaker 18 (34:10):
Allegra, go ahead, okay, well, thank you so much for
your piece.
Speaker 19 (34:15):
I'm really glad that we're talking about this. I'm a
special education feacher.
Speaker 18 (34:19):
I have been for over.
Speaker 20 (34:20):
Twenty years, and one of the things I was thinking
might be helpful for people to know is that something
that we can do, just as to the things in neighbors,
if we're able, is to shovel the entire.
Speaker 19 (34:36):
Sidewalk during the winter.
Speaker 18 (34:39):
Sometimes people just shovel like what their shovel holds, which
is about half the sidewalk. But if you're a real user,
that doesn't help you get down the street and it
helps you stay in bound.
Speaker 19 (34:53):
So it doesn't really have to do with policy or anything,
but it's just something that I always wish we would do.
And also to look out to the curb cuts, like
if you're shoveling and you live by the road, or
are you just like getting exercise in the winter, like
to check out your curve cuts and think about because
(35:14):
a person using a wheelchair get down the street.
Speaker 6 (35:17):
In the wind right.
Speaker 1 (35:19):
Yeah, Aligra, thank you, thank you for bringing that up. Alicia.
I mean, you you live on the West coast, so
you probably don't have to deal with snow, but I'm
sure this has come up in your conversations as an advocate.
Speaker 10 (35:33):
Yeah.
Speaker 12 (35:34):
I mean, I think to her point is, let's be
aware of our environment and what the collective is kind
of going through and navigating, and how do we make
the world work again more universally that we're thinking about
creating paths that work right, whether it's shoveling snow or
(35:55):
you know, creating universal access somewhere.
Speaker 10 (35:58):
I lived in Europe and did a master's program over there,
and that's where.
Speaker 12 (36:02):
I really learned how to come together collaboratively and find
paths to access when accessibility was very, very limited, and
it takes someone like this woman.
Speaker 10 (36:15):
I'm so sorry, I don't remember your name.
Speaker 12 (36:16):
I apologize, but you know, Allegra seeing something and then
also like on the disabled person's perspective, like how do
we come together and find a path forward that works
and so like that was a perfect example of just
being aware of environments that might be limiting and how
can we, like as a community, solve for problems.
Speaker 1 (36:41):
Jonah is calling from Kimberly, Wisconsin. Hi, Jonah, what do
you think could be done to make things better for
people with disabilities?
Speaker 17 (36:49):
Hi?
Speaker 16 (36:49):
There, thanks for having me on. I think that in general,
human beings are looked at their value was determined by
how much money they canvert, how many hours they can work.
I think that's a really awful way to look at
all of humanity, and it's one of the big reasons
why disabled people people are looking down upon because they
(37:12):
have a harder time working in most you know, in
most jobs. But we shouldn't judge people solely for the
capital that they produce. We are human beings, you know.
So I think that the billionaire grindset, mindset, all all
(37:33):
that junk. I think it's one of the main reasons
that we don't treat disabled people very well.
Speaker 1 (37:39):
Hmm interesting, callum, what do you think about that?
Speaker 11 (37:43):
I think Jonah makes a great point. I think the
second piece of it two though, is that we also
sometimes underestimate, you know what, that that ability is.
Speaker 3 (37:50):
Right.
Speaker 11 (37:50):
So the layer I think the Jonah's talking about is,
let's not diminish the human value of people who may
not you know, air quotes contribute to society right in
the way that we conventionally think of it. But also
let's look for potential, uh in folks that you may
have overlooked in the past.
Speaker 21 (38:06):
Right.
Speaker 11 (38:06):
I think that's been one of the pleasant developments, uh,
you know, post pandemic again, partly because of the work
from home accommodation. I think the company sort of woke
up to the reality we saw the employment rate rise
for people with disabilities once you took away that by
a lot, for a lot of by a lot, you know,
of having to get get physically to the office, you know,
and it can be small stuff, Jeremy, I mean I'm thinking,
(38:27):
you know, like you know, I used to commute to
an office every day for example. Yeah, I tell you
something like in the winter just done on my body
having cerebral palsy, you know, sort of being kind of stiff,
and I just don't move as well in the winter,
you know, Like that kind of thing can take a
little bit of a toll. And so if you have
more absences, let's say, or you're not you're not your
full energetic self at the office, because you know, you
(38:48):
expended a lot of energy just getting there in the
first place. I think those are things that we don't
always see or think about. And and so when you
can make those accommodations like that to make sure that
you get the full potential out of somebody who has
a disability, I think that's sort of the next level
of what Jonah's talking about as.
Speaker 1 (39:02):
Well, let's get to eva. Oh get go ahead.
Speaker 12 (39:06):
Well, I'm just gonna say, and also keep it in
mind that making it the environment more dynamic, and you know,
it's not necessarily the disabled person not being able to
fully participate. It could be the environment in which is limiting.
That's the problem. It's not the disability, it's us needing
(39:27):
to be more adaptable and accommodating. I had somebody on
my podcast that is neurodiverse, and he's a building AI
and he's doing all these amazing things, and he.
Speaker 10 (39:35):
Works really, really, really really hard.
Speaker 12 (39:38):
And all he needs is like a quiet room for
thirty minutes to go rest his brain, and then he's
back at work hustling. And if we're not creating those
flexible environments for people with disabilities to check out for
a minute, or you know, have whatever accommodation that they need.
Then then there comes the problem. So it's it's the
(39:59):
accommodation that need to be more flexible within work environments.
Speaker 1 (40:03):
Yeah, Eva's in San Antonio, Texas. Hi, Eva, go ahead
with your thoughts.
Speaker 22 (40:08):
Hi, thank you for having me on the show. I
really appreciate it. So I have a sixteen year old
daughter who has depression. And I noticed that a lot
of people, just friends and family even who think disability
automatically think physical disability. They don't. I guess they don't
(40:32):
think of a mental disability. It's more like a secondary disability,
if that makes sense. And so we come across a
lot of you know, like with school for example, and
a lot of issues with that. And there are days
where she can't get out of bed. She has depression
that bad. We've you know, she's had self harm, et cetera,
(40:56):
et cetera. But in which way, The point is, what
I would like to see is a better education for
main stream quote unquote mainstream people, for the public to
understand that if you're disabled, it's not automatically a physical disability.
(41:18):
There's mental health disabilities. Yeah, and people need to be
educated and be more aware of that. And I'm afraid
that when she goes out into the workforce, I mean,
she's sixteen, known she's going to go find a job,
and then there are days where she can't function because
of that depression and then lose the job. And I
(41:40):
wish there would be a better education for people to understand.
Speaker 1 (41:44):
Yeah, especially yeah, Alicia, what do you think of people
who there are so many I mean we mentioned more
than seventy million Americans identify as having some kind of disability,
and many of those would not be visible disabilities.
Speaker 10 (41:56):
Yeah, I mean most of them are not.
Speaker 12 (41:58):
And the girl in the world, Sure, the wilchair has
been the symbol, but it's actually a very small percentage
of people who have disabilities like mine that you can
see very clearly. And it is it's education, awareness, and
continued action on what we learn to create the knowledge
of understanding that disability is non apparent and you know,
(42:25):
from chronic illness to neurodiversity to mental health like all
these things that have you know, and creating work environments
that feel safe and secure for somebody to raise their hand.
Speaker 10 (42:36):
And say I feel this way, this is what I need.
Speaker 12 (42:39):
That's what we need to start to create and continue
to build on, not pull back from. So education awareness
is key in all of this.
Speaker 11 (42:49):
Kellum, I would just add that there's this mindset shift
that Eve is talking about is a work in progress
within the community of people who have disabilities as well,
and I think that's important to know as well. You know,
I'm thinking of a decade ago, Jeremy, in my younger
fitter days, when I was rowing, I used to train
with some really high level like paralympic rower types, and
(43:10):
we're talking about sometimes people who are you know, they
got legs blown off in a rock or something, or
they have you know, spine of bifida, and and for
folks like that, I will tell you there is a
little bit of eyebrow raising when they hear about somebody
who says, well, I can't go do such and such
because I have anxiety or I have depression. Not everyone,
(43:32):
but I think that that's a real thing, you know,
for people who have a very big physical impairment. Sometimes
those folks also it's not just able bodied folks. Sometimes
those folks too have a hard time recognizing the complexity
of mental and emotional disabilities as well. So I just
think that's important to note as well, this is a
work in progress for all of us.
Speaker 1 (43:51):
Yeah, Nathan is calling from Tampa, Florida. Hi, Nathan, what
do you think could be done to improve things for
people with disabilities in this country?
Speaker 7 (43:59):
I agree in the dyslexic I grew up with dyslexia
and I was putting SLD around, uh first.
Speaker 1 (44:08):
Grade sl SLD is what.
Speaker 7 (44:14):
Wearing disabilities.
Speaker 21 (44:15):
They've finally changed the labels since then. I mean, honestly,
it was it wasn't probably still is an experimental program
as they learn more about the disability. I'm sure it's
changed and changed names, et cetera.
Speaker 7 (44:32):
But I I always wondered, you know, like like like
what kind of fact this has on the population.
Speaker 6 (44:41):
And I've always wondered like outside populations like Japan or
other nations and and how that's affected them. But one
time I was listening to Bill More and there was
a guy talking about talking about, uh this, Apparently there's
(45:01):
a large number of people in the in the prison
population that are dyslexic. I think it's ever had I'd
have to look at it right, and I'd have.
Speaker 21 (45:14):
To It's an alarming number.
Speaker 7 (45:19):
And I've always been the you know, of the UH
school that you should prevent instead of trying to clean
up something, you should prevent it.
Speaker 1 (45:32):
Yeah, I think we I think we've got it there,
you know, Alicia. I think one of the things that
he that he brings up there is that, you know,
maybe people can't make it in society because of their
disability and end up in a prison situation or or
end up in a situation that is that Is that
a problem that you're seeing.
Speaker 12 (45:55):
I mean, I think that that's an I mean, I'm
sure that's a percentage of a certain amount of people,
but there's so many other narratives around disability that we're
needing to project into the society. About the possibility of
the lived experience. Honestly, that's there's going to be a
(46:16):
percentage in every population for what you just described. But
I think it's it's starting to have the conversations as
well of the power of the lived experience and what
we bring into the community and into the world.
Speaker 1 (46:35):
Callum, just a few seconds left here. Let me give
you the last word. What do you see as the
biggest obstacle to better inclusion in society people with disabilities?
Is it about as we've been hearing all these colleges.
Is it about stigma, Is it about infrastructure? Is it
about lack of understanding?
Speaker 16 (46:50):
It's some of all those things.
Speaker 11 (46:51):
I guess the biggest thing I would say is is
maybe an inability to see the big picture. You know,
think about that lost call.
Speaker 5 (46:57):
You know.
Speaker 11 (46:57):
Maybe ending up in prison is the extreme example, but
maybe the more likely scenario is if we don't include
and accommodate disabilities early on, maybe something doesn't end up
in prison, But do they end up on Medicaid later on?
Do they end up on SNAP benefits later on? It
is if you don't like paying for the special education
services now, you're really not gonna like paying for the
(47:18):
Medicaid and the SNAP and other accommodations down the line.
Isn't it better to invest in folks early on and
bring everyone into the fold of our society so they
can be the fullest versions of themselves, contribute the very
best they can at whatever ability level they have. And
I think that ability to see the big picture will
make all of us more maybe a little bit more
generous with one another and a little bit more empathetic
(47:40):
as well.
Speaker 1 (47:41):
That is Caluin Borscher, as a commist for the Wall
Street Journal. We've also been speaking with Alicia Anderson, a
disability an inclusion advocate and speaker. Thanks so much to
both of you for joining us. Thank you, and don't
forget the Middle as available as a podcast in partnership
with iHeart Podcasts on the iHeart Apple wherever you listen
to podcasts and come in to your feet. In the
next few days an episode of our weekly podcast this
Extra One Thing Trump Did. We'll talk about signal Gate
(48:03):
and more of what's happening in Pete Hegseth's Pentagon, and
next week we'll be right back here asking you how
the tariffs are affecting you.
Speaker 2 (48:11):
As always, you can call in at eight four four
four Middle that's eight four four four six four three
three five three, or you can reach out at Listen
to the Middle dot com, where you can also sign
up for our free weekly newsletter and find Middle merch
where every dollar goes right back into the show.
Speaker 1 (48:24):
I am Jeremy Hobson, and I'll talk to you next week.
Host
Jeremy Hobson
Popular Podcasts
24/7 News: The Latest
The latest news in 4 minutes updated every hour, every day.
Therapy Gecko
An unlicensed lizard psychologist travels the universe talking to strangers about absolutely nothing. TO CALL THE GECKO: follow me on https://www.twitch.tv/lyleforever to get a notification for when I am taking calls. I am usually live Mondays, Wednesdays, and Fridays but lately a lot of other times too. I am a gecko.
The Joe Rogan Experience
The official podcast of comedian Joe Rogan.