February 23, 2024 • 49 mins
On this episode of The Middle, we're asking you: Is it time to change the way we choose our nominees? Jeremy is joined by Alaska Senate Majority Leader Cathy Giessel and South Carolina Public Radio host and reporter Gavin Jackson. The Middle's house DJ Tolliver joins as well, plus callers from around the country.
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Episode Transcript
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Speaker 1 (00:06):
Welcome to the Middle. I'm Jeremy Hobson along here with Tolliver.
Hi Tolliver, Hello, my dear friend.
Speaker 2 (00:10):
Happy Thursday.
Speaker 1 (00:11):
Happy Thursday. And by the way, I've been looking up
at the moon wondering can I see the lander because
they just landed for the first time since nineteen seventy two.
I want to tell our listeners keep your questions about
that for April fourth, when astrophysicist Neil deGrasse Tyson is
going to be on the Middle. We're going to talk
about space tonight. I'm not going to talk about nineteen
(00:31):
seventy two. We're going to go back to nineteen sixty eight.
Right now. I want to set the stage here. Lyndon
Johnson was the President of the United States. The Vietnam
War was raging, and Robert F. Kennedy got into the
race as a Democratic challenger to Johnson on March sixteenth,
as in about a month from now, Johnson decided not
to run for reelection. Two weeks later. Kennedy won a
(00:53):
number of primaries before being assassinated, as you know, in
June of nineteen sixty eight. The eventual nominee of the
party was Hubert Humphrey, who didn't even compete in any
of the primaries and of course ended up losing to
Richard Nixon in the general election.
Speaker 3 (01:06):
Yeah, gobsmacking to this day.
Speaker 1 (01:08):
While so after all that, in nineteen seventy two, the
Democrats started the process where a handful of smaller states,
starting with Iowa, have a ton of power in selecting
the nominee, and Republicans followed that model starting in nineteen
seventy six. And the result, Tulliver, is that after just
a few contests this year, Joe Biden is basically uncontested
(01:30):
and Donald Trump thinks the race is over here. He is,
after winning the New Hampshire primary, mocking Nikki Haley for
remaining in the race.
Speaker 4 (01:40):
And when I watched her in the fancy dress that
probably wasn't so fancy, come up, I said, what's she doing?
We won, and she did the same thing last week,
but Ron beat her also, you know, Ron came in
second and he left.
Speaker 1 (01:56):
She came in third, and she's still hanging around. Okay,
So we want to hear from you this hour. Is
it time we change the way we nominate our presidential candidates? Tolliver?
How can people reach us?
Speaker 3 (02:08):
Call eight four four four Middle. That's eight four four
four six four three three five three or reach out
at Listen to the Middle dot com.
Speaker 1 (02:15):
And right now, let's meet our panel. Gavin Jackson is
a host and reporter at South Carolina Public Radio. He's
been traveling around the country following the campaign. He hosts
the weekly South Carolina Lead podcast. He joins us from
Myrtle Beach. Gavin, Welcome to the Middle.
Speaker 2 (02:30):
Thanks for having me, Jeremy.
Speaker 1 (02:31):
And also joining us Kathy Geesel, the majority leader of
the Alaska Senate Bipartisan Coalition. Senator Geesel, welcome to you.
Speaker 5 (02:40):
Thank you, Jeremy.
Speaker 1 (02:41):
And before we get to the phones, I want to
ask each of you a couple of questions. Gavin Jackson,
does it feel to you right now like the race
is still alive on the Republican side.
Speaker 6 (02:52):
I like to think so, Jeremy, since I've been covering
it so much, But yeah, I think, you know, I
think if you talk to Nikki Haley, she says very
much so. Right like, there's still enthusiasm on the ground
here in South Carolina, her home state, of course, folks
are still turning out to these events. She's been having
a bus tour for the past two weeks leading up
two Saturdays primary, and folks you'ing on the small towns
(03:13):
of South Carolina, like her hometown of Bamberg. There are
maybe about fifty to sixty people shown up there. In
some bigger areas she has even in thousands of folks.
I've seen some Donald Trump rallies. He's had a couple
thousand folks at his events too, So people are still
amped up. They do see it as somewhat of a
foregone conclusion. And that clip you played from Donald Trump,
Nicki Haley loves to mention that clip on stage when
(03:34):
she's out campaigning and really getting the folks energized because
she talks she uses that example specifically to talk about
how he was in a tizzy or she says he's
unhinged that night because he did win New Hampshire and
he focused on her and her dress, which you mentioned
right there. So it's a pretty good appause line, it's
a pretty good laugh line. And a lot of folks
you talk to, he are just really ready for something different,
(03:55):
So they are really hoping, you know, hoping against all
odds that something happens for Nicki Haley going forward. But
as we all know, like she has not won a
state yet, and she's poised to win her home state.
Speaker 1 (04:06):
And then Super Tuesday comes up very quickly. Senator Giesel,
One of the reasons we wanted to have you on
is because you're in a state that recently changed the
way it nominates candidate. It's not for president, but for
other offices. It uses ranked choice voting, which means the
top vote getters in any party advanced to the general election,
then people rank them in order. Has that made a
big difference in Alaska?
Speaker 7 (04:28):
Well, it has, Jeremy, But let me clarify a little
bit more about our system.
Speaker 5 (04:33):
Our system is a primary that is open.
Speaker 7 (04:36):
In other words, every candidate Republican, Democrat, Independent are all
listed on the same ballot, and the top four vote
getters go forward. This is a key piece if you
really want to do pure.
Speaker 5 (04:50):
Election reform.
Speaker 7 (04:53):
It requires that open primary and then you go to
that rank choice voting, those top four go forward. So
if we were to apply this to this presidential election,
wouldn't that be interesting?
Speaker 1 (05:05):
Well, and it's not just open in that way, it's
also anybody can vote in that primary, right.
Speaker 5 (05:11):
Yes, that is correct.
Speaker 7 (05:12):
Thank you that is a key point and everyone both
on the same ballot.
Speaker 1 (05:17):
And we've mentioned that you're part of this bipartisan Senate coalition.
Is that because of ranked choice voting, it is.
Speaker 5 (05:23):
A key part of it.
Speaker 7 (05:25):
Yes, we have had a Byparson coalition in the past,
but it's been more than a decade. And the open
primary and the instant runoff another name for ranked choice
voting really opened the door to again a by Parson
coalition in our state, Senate.
Speaker 1 (05:42):
Gavin just before we get to the phones and they
are ringing, you're base in South Carolina. I imagine South
Carolinians think the system is just find the way it
is because they have so much power in the campaign.
Speaker 8 (05:53):
Yeah.
Speaker 6 (05:53):
I mean, we do have open primaries too, and there
is a non binding question on the Republican ballot asking
folks if they do want to close the Prime Mary's
and there might be more steam behind that than there
was in the past because you know, the reason we
don't register by party in South Carolina is because, yes,
you might want to vote for a Republican governor, but
you know the sheriff or you know a coroner who
is a Democrat, so you don't want to have to
(06:14):
pick and choose that way.
Speaker 2 (06:15):
But more and more at.
Speaker 6 (06:16):
The local level, those folks, for the credit of the
state Republican Party are being to become Republicans because the
state is becoming more Republican. Unlike our neighbors Georgia and
North Carolina, we're still very Ruby right here in South Carolina.
So yeah, open primary except for folks who voted in
the February third Democratic primary, which Joe Biden one, you know,
hands down right as we were first of the nation
that time.
Speaker 1 (06:36):
So the number to call is eight four four four Middle.
That's eight four four four six four three three five three.
Let's go to Dwayne, who is joining us from New Orleans. Dwayne,
welcome to the Middle. What do you think, Hi, Beeing.
Speaker 9 (06:48):
I think it's a very interesting question.
Speaker 10 (06:51):
I think the I'm in Louisiana and so we find
just observe all the primary stuff going on, and we
in our states have an open primary, right, and it's
a little bit different than the system you described, But
I think a system, a national open primary, would do
a lot to reduce the partisanship that is just ramping
(07:15):
through politics.
Speaker 1 (07:16):
Now why do you think.
Speaker 10 (07:21):
I think it's because of the primary system. In the primaries,
the candidates have to run so hard to get the
party base that they kind of go all in on
the extreme, you know, right or left of their party
to try to get through the primary, and it's hard
to walk that back during the general election.
Speaker 1 (07:42):
Dwayne, thank you so much. Yeah for that call. Let
me let me take that to Kathay Gesal. You know
that we've said before that the general election is one
in the middle, the primary is one on the fringes.
Do you think that that, you know, having an open
primary and national primary, as Dwayne said, would make a
big difference.
Speaker 5 (07:58):
Well, it made a big difference here, for certainly for me.
Speaker 7 (08:02):
I actually lost the closed primary election in twenty twenty.
Speaker 5 (08:07):
I had already served in the Senate for ten years.
I was up for reelection.
Speaker 7 (08:11):
I was not far enough right conservative enough for the
Republican Party here, so they put up another candidate and
I lost in the primary in twenty twenty. That same election,
that same general election, the people of Alaska voted on
a citizen's initiative that created the open primary. Top four
of the primary go forward and then the rank choice voting.
Speaker 5 (08:33):
Or instant runoff.
Speaker 7 (08:35):
Because of that new system, I was able to win
in the primary. In fact, I did have the most
votes in the primary out of the candidates that were running,
and then went.
Speaker 5 (08:45):
On to win the rank choice voting.
Speaker 7 (08:47):
What it does is it changes how the candidate campaigns.
Speaker 5 (08:52):
I completely changed.
Speaker 7 (08:54):
I was no longer appealing to my base and as
the previous caller said, trying to be the most conservative
or most appealing to the Republican Party. I happened to
be a Republican instead. I had to do I had
to speak to everyone, I had to listen to everyone,
and I had to find common ground with everyone.
Speaker 5 (09:14):
It completely changed how I ran for election.
Speaker 1 (09:17):
Gavin, you know, you've been following the candidates. We have
seen a little bit of a change in Nikki Haley
ever since New Hampshire. But they're still going after the base, right,
I mean, certainly Donald Trump is is Haley still going
after the base?
Speaker 6 (09:32):
You know, It's interesting because she does have her base
of support here in South Carolina, but she's really aware
of like that that ceiling and that ceiling that Trump
has and his cemented foundation, and so what she's doing
in you know, in both her speeches and in even
her media appearances, I mean she was on NPR today
with Steve enskeep right, like, was the last time you've
(09:53):
heard that she's really making that broad pitch. Two more
folks in the party to which to her detriments somewhat
from some of these these Republicans are in the Trump
camp who are saying that she is, you know, for
the Democrats, she is a Democrat, which could be further
from the truth. I mean, she just came out in
supportive personhood today, so like by the other day, I mean,
it kind of a reminder of that fact. But you know,
(10:15):
she's throwing that red meat out there for the base
to remind them that she is a Republican. She was
MAGA before MAGA existed. She was tea party right. She
got it in twenty ten as governor, she was touched
by Sarah Palin, former governor at there in Alaska. So
I mean that really got her propelled into the situation.
So I think it's it's she's doing what she can
to get as many votes as you can, and that
includes getting independence disenfranchised just effect, I should say Democrats.
(10:39):
Democrats who sat out the Democratic primary earlier this month
because it was a foregone conclusion for Joe Biden. I mean,
we typically don't even have a primary for the incumbent.
We didn't for Trump, we didn't for Obama. This that
Democratic primary was a thank you to from Joe Biden
and as well as right, you know, because we helped
select him as the nominee back in twenty twenty. And
(11:01):
of course the DNC cherish Jamie Harrison, former Democratic Party
leader here in South Carolina.
Speaker 1 (11:06):
By the way, fair to say, Senator Giesel that Sarah
Palin is not in Congress right now because of ranked
choice voting.
Speaker 7 (11:12):
No, that would not be fair. I am going to
dispel that myth. Okay, it was not because of ranked
choice voting. It was because Sarah did not run well.
Alaskans have a problem.
Speaker 1 (11:25):
With her, Okay, Tolliver. One of the side effects of
our current primary system is that a single moment in
the early States can make or break a candidacy.
Speaker 3 (11:33):
That's right, Jeremy case in point two thousand and four,
when Democratic hopefull Howard Dean placed third in the Iowa
caucas and got very excited.
Speaker 1 (11:41):
And you know something, you know something. Not only are
we going to New Hampshire, Tom Harkin, We're going.
Speaker 8 (11:47):
To South Carolina and Oklahoma and Arizona and North Dakota.
Speaker 1 (11:51):
And New Mexico.
Speaker 7 (11:53):
We're going to California and Texas and New York, and
we're going to South Dakota.
Speaker 1 (11:57):
And Oregon and Washington.
Speaker 11 (11:59):
Mission good.
Speaker 1 (12:01):
And then we're going to watch it and see you
to take back the White House. Just like just waiting
for that the whole time, and you knew it was coming.
By the way, Uh, The Middle is raising money as
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(12:22):
If you're a fan of the podcast, we hope you
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This is the Middle. I'm Jeremy Hobson. If you're just tuning.
In the Middle is a national call in show. We're
focused on elevating voices from the middle geographically, politically, philosophically,
(12:44):
or maybe you just want to meet in the middle.
This hour, we're asking is it time to change the
way we nominate our presidential candidates, whether you do think
it is or you don't, We want to hear from you. Tolliver,
what's the number.
Speaker 3 (12:56):
It's eight four four four six four three three, which
is also eight four four four Middle. You can also
write to us at Listen to the Middle dot com
or on social media.
Speaker 1 (13:06):
I'm joined by Gavin Jackson, host and reporter at South
Carolina Public Radio, and Kathy Giesel, the majority leader of
the Alaska Senate Bipartisan Coalition. Let's go to Sally, who's
calling from Durham, North Carolina. Sally, go ahead. What do
you think?
Speaker 11 (13:20):
I think that the whole system is a mess. I
think that the candidates have to raise so much money.
It's just they spend so much money, and environmentally it's
terrible because they fly all over the place.
Speaker 1 (13:33):
But it's the money that bothers.
Speaker 11 (13:35):
You really very upset. Yes, yes, the money and the
environmental degradations.
Speaker 12 (13:41):
So how how.
Speaker 1 (13:42):
Would you change it? What would you like to see happen?
Speaker 11 (13:44):
I'd like to have ranked choice footing M. Do you
think that a national campaign? Yeah, I think a national
campaign where like there was just a time limit, you know,
for a month or two you advertise on you know,
online on television, on the radio, and so keep it shorter.
Speaker 13 (14:11):
Than it is.
Speaker 1 (14:12):
Keep it shorter than it is right now, Sally, thank
you for that. Gavin Jackson, what about the length of it,
Let's talk about that part of it. It does go
on for a very long time. We mentioned, you know,
back in the nineteen sixties and how things started like
in March. Now Iowa coxes are early January. It goes
on forever, and.
Speaker 2 (14:29):
Jeremy, I want to keep it that way.
Speaker 6 (14:30):
I want to keep it not like the entire process,
but Iowa going first, because you see how it just
starts up two years out, however many years out from
the actual election day, and then it's non stop. I mean,
South Carolina is first in the South. We became for
the Republicans, of its first in the nation for the Democrats.
I don't know if that's going to hang around in
twenty twenty eight. I low key hope it doesn't because
(14:52):
it will become like Iowa where they are just coming through,
because it's gonna be wide open in twenty twenty eight.
But at the same time, you talk to Iowan's, you
talk to folks in New Hampshire, you talked to in
South Carolina. They love meeting these people, they love seeing
these people. Yes, they're bombarded with mailers, with advertising. You
can't turn the TV on with all the ads. But
they like to go out and see these people and
actually ask them the questions and get the answers.
Speaker 2 (15:12):
The money is fascinating.
Speaker 6 (15:13):
And to her point, you know, Nikki Haley flud commercial
the entire time pretty much, and I think she still
pretty much is.
Speaker 2 (15:18):
She's got a bus going across the state.
Speaker 6 (15:20):
So I mean, you could call that economical and somewhat
environmentally friendly, but yeah, there is a lot that goes
into it. But you know, it also supports a lot
of folks too, supports a lot of jobs and gets
people engaged in a way. And it still doesn't engage
enough people because looking voter turnout, they still don't even
turn out really well.
Speaker 1 (15:35):
And Kathy Giesel, you know you're you're in Alaska. When
was the last time a presidential candidate came there for
a campaign stop? Like, it's too late in the process.
It's probably not big. I think it's on Super Tuesday.
One of the parties is doing it on Super Tuesday.
So out of all the states on Super Tuesday, why
would they ever choose to go to Little Alaska and
it's just not not enough delegates.
Speaker 7 (15:54):
We only had yeah, three electoral votes, and I don't
know that a presidential candidate has ever.
Speaker 1 (16:01):
Yeah wow. But so then, so then how do you
feel about these these states like New Hampshire and South
Carolina and Iowa getting so much power?
Speaker 5 (16:10):
Well, it is.
Speaker 7 (16:11):
It is concerning to Alaskans, It's true, and that's part
of the reason there's a lot of Alaskans that want
to go to the national popular vote for a president.
Not enough yet that we would make that change, but
there's certainly a lot of discussion about it because we
are pretty much left out.
Speaker 1 (16:30):
Let's go to Scott, who's calling from Charleston, West Virginia. Scott,
welcome to the middle. What do you think how should
the process changer? Should it?
Speaker 14 (16:38):
Well, I was just listening to that. I like all
those ideas, and I've read a lot about frank choice voting,
and i like it because it gets the middle to
pick the candidates. And that's what this country needs now,
because avoid the extremes, because it's a zero sum game
of the two extremes. If it's good for the other side,
well we're not for it got paralyzed government. And it's
(17:01):
a great example what's happening in the House right now
where the House majority or the House Speaker is essentially
threatened lose his job. What we need And I told
your producer, I'm in West Virginia. We have a Republican
supermajority in West Virginia. Legislature's in session right now, and
West Virginia Public Radio had a great interview with a
(17:23):
couple of legislators and one talked about ranked choice voting,
or was asked about ranked choice voting, he says, Oh,
don't want that because it takes too long to get
the results, so people think it's being rigged. Yes, what
And so he dismissed it right out of hand. And
I think that's wrong because if it's clear and presented
(17:44):
to people what's happening, and you've got you rank your votes,
then it is a good way to do it.
Speaker 1 (17:50):
You get, Scott, let me ask you a question because
you're you're in West Virginia, which is home to of
course Joe Manchin, who you mentioned you like the middle.
I mean, he's got to be one of the most
middle members of the Senate. You know, sometimes switched over
and supports what the Republicans want. Do you like him?
Speaker 14 (18:07):
He's all right. I think he's tried to be too powerful.
He should have, you know, used that power earlier rather
than trying to hold out and force both sides.
Speaker 13 (18:18):
And all that.
Speaker 14 (18:18):
But you know I have voted for him before.
Speaker 1 (18:21):
Okay, Scott, thank you so much for that call. And
Kathy Giesel another lover of ranked choice voting. It seems
to be very popular.
Speaker 7 (18:29):
Yes, and he mentioned you mentioned Joe Manchin. Of course,
he's good friends with our Senator Lisa Markowski, who is
also a modern Republican and gets re elected and was
re elected under the rank choice voting system.
Speaker 5 (18:43):
He's absolutely right.
Speaker 7 (18:44):
It does allow folks to to actually have more of
their voice heard in terms of choosing someone that it
has common ground with them, right, that that actually isn't
out on the fringes, but actually wants.
Speaker 5 (18:59):
To get something done.
Speaker 7 (19:00):
That's really what an open primary, coupled with rank choice
voting allows candidates to do to It allows the voter
to elect candidates that are willing to work with everyone
and willing to work on the key issues that the
citizens want, not what the parties want.
Speaker 1 (19:20):
Gavin Jackson.
Speaker 6 (19:22):
Yeah, and I wanted to kind of circle back there,
Jeremy to the caller from North Carolina. I was also
kind of excited when he said Charleston, Charleston, South Como,
West Virginia. But when she was talking about the expense
and the money that goes into it, you know, not
everyone starts off these presidential bids with money. And the
advantage of places like Iowa, like New Hampshire, like South
Carolina is that they're affordable, they're small to get around in.
(19:44):
Like in South Carolina, you can go from the upstate
like Greenville the state to Charleston all in one day
and they're all like, you know, two hours apart from
each other, and that's affordable. And that way you can
kind of get your message out, you can kind of
test your message, you can reach people and even possibly
catch fire. I think Nicky Haley is a pretty good
example of how that worked. You know, she was kind
of counted out in the beginning because she wasn't wrong
(20:06):
to santus. She didn't have thirty two million dollars in
the bank like Senator Tim Scott. But she did make
an impression on folks during those debates. As we kind
of expected her to do, and that propelled her to
do more, to race her profile more, and she still
want it and those guys are well.
Speaker 1 (20:21):
And this is one of the one of the things
that people have said about why not to do a
national primary where all the states voted at the same time,
is because it would just it would make it so
expensive to be really competitive in a race like that.
Speaker 2 (20:32):
President Michael Bloomberg.
Speaker 1 (20:34):
Right, oh, yeah, we did he win. Let's go to Eric,
who's in Saint Paul, Minnesota. Eric, welcome to the middle
Go ahead.
Speaker 2 (20:43):
Yeah.
Speaker 12 (20:44):
I So something happened in twenty sixteen that I haven't
heard much discussion of, but to me, this was very
important to getting us to where we are today. And
that year there was a lot of discussion about the
super delegates at the national convention, and the debate was
happening at both parties, and my recollection is that Republicans
actually went ahead and got rid of the super delegates.
(21:05):
Democrats didn't, although among my friends, I know there's a
lot of questioning about why we have them, and they
were hoping for change. But I guess in my mind,
I've been thinking that it was really the end of
the super delegates in the Republican Party. That opened it
up to an unconventional, extreme populist candidate who could take
over the party. So, you know, I guess advocating for
(21:28):
super delegates might not be the most popular position, but
maybe they have a check on the most extreme candidates
or candidates that are going to move the parties too
far from more centrist position.
Speaker 1 (21:39):
The Democrats. Now, I think fifteen percent of the Democratic
Party delegates at the DNC are still super delegates, but
I believe that is down from what it used to be.
And you know, Gavin Jackson, I'll go back to you
on this, because one of the reasons why we have
the primaries and the caucuses and let the people vote
was to get out of the sort of back room
(22:02):
party boss thing that basically the super delegates is like
a relic.
Speaker 6 (22:05):
Of yeah, and it's almost like, you know, it's everything
with evolution in politics. It seems like we get we
keep going that one caller was talking about trying to
make things better, and it's like, this is the best
we got so far. But of course, you know, when
you're talking about money, we're not talking about delegates here,
but money. Citizens United that changed the game, of course,
but you know, it seems still to be the best way,
(22:26):
the most democratic, small d democratic way to do this
entire process is to do it state by state. When
these delegates, you know, sometimes it's a matter of proportional
delegates in states versus the winner take all system in
certain states. You know, you're seeing that that's gonna be
in California for Super Tuesday. It's in South Carolina with
our fifty delegates, but it's broken down by state different
you know, you can still win proportionally depending on how
(22:46):
many votes you get. And in South Carolina there's at
large delegates, and there's also delegates that are allocated by
our seven congressional districts too, so if you do well
in one district, you can pick up a couple. But
for the most part, that winner take all system really
is the key there.
Speaker 1 (23:00):
Let's go to Olivia. Who's in American Fork Utah, Olivia,
Welcome to the middle. What do you think?
Speaker 15 (23:07):
I have never liked the electoral college in general for
elections or nominations because as a leftist in a super
red state, it feels like my vote doesn't even count,
you know, it just feels like I'm throwing away my vote.
And I always look at swing states and I go,
should I move there to make a difference, And I
just think that the popular vote should hold more sway,
(23:30):
when I first turned eighteen and learned a little to vote,
I was unaware that popular vote isn't how it worked,
because that's what I was taught in school. You know
that whoever gets the most vote wins, and so I
just didn't understand the weight of my vote, which it
depends on the electoral college, and I think we should
(23:50):
have ranked voting.
Speaker 1 (23:52):
Yeah, another lover of ranked voting. And by the way,
thank you for bringing up the electoral college. I'm reserving
the right, Tolliver to hold on to electoral college as
a whole show of the middle in the fall. Right,
we've got time, We've got time to do a whole.
But I will ask you, Senator Giesel, about the point
that Kathy was making there, which is that, you know,
(24:14):
do the people have enough say in the presidential race?
Speaker 7 (24:19):
Sure that was a good point, and actually, in ranked
choice voting they would have more of a say because remember,
they get to choose. They are most motivated to choose
their favorite candidate for their first choice right, and maybe
they realize that first choice is not going to make it,
so they get a second choice. So really it's it
really is more of a popular type vote to have
(24:42):
that ranking.
Speaker 1 (24:44):
Are you surprised by the way at how many people
have called in so far to say that they want
ranked choice voting, Senator.
Speaker 7 (24:49):
I'm thrilled to hear it. You know, so many states
are considering it now. I've talked to folks in Wisconsin, Idaho, Utah.
Speaker 5 (24:58):
Yeah, it's great.
Speaker 1 (25:00):
Although there's a movement in Alaska now just a couple
of years in or to get rid of it.
Speaker 5 (25:06):
Yes, there is a referendum to withdraw its.
Speaker 7 (25:09):
A citizen group is doing that, and it's a citizen
group that was a supporter of Sarah Palin feels that
the system is why she lost.
Speaker 5 (25:18):
That is not true.
Speaker 7 (25:20):
She is not terribly popular here and the way that campaign, well,
I can tell you more about that election if there's
time sometime, But she just was not a good candidate,
and the Democrat Alaska native woman who won was really
a good candidate. And we're all well, many of us
are very very pleased with the work that Mary Piltol.
Speaker 1 (25:41):
Is right, Let's go to Jane in Marlboro, Massachusetts. Jane,
Welcome to the middle. What do you think?
Speaker 2 (25:51):
Hi?
Speaker 1 (25:51):
Jane, Ti, Hi, you're on here, go ahead?
Speaker 8 (25:56):
What do you think?
Speaker 9 (25:58):
Sorry? I am a fan of rank choice voting, and
here in Massachusetts it got voted out when we had
a referendum and it seemed like a lot of people
didn't understand the concept. But I wanted to comment about
the primary issue, which I don't believe Iowa and New
Hampshire should continue to be the first so called caucus
in primary. I think we should have like a group
(26:21):
of states that are all next to each other, the
Northwestern United States or the Northeastern United States, and each
election a group of say ten would be the first primary,
so the economic benefit gets spread around, and it would
save the environmental issue that the collar before mentioned, which
I agree with that all these people flying around everywhere,
(26:41):
back and forth, back and forth is a total waste,
and it would just be a lot fairer.
Speaker 1 (26:47):
Gavin Jackson regional primaries, This is an idea that a
lot of people are talking about. You would have basically,
it would be rotating. You'd have, you know, the South
gets to go one time and then next time around
that maybe the Northeast goes first or whatever.
Speaker 2 (27:01):
What do you think, Yeah, I think that would be fascinating.
Speaker 6 (27:04):
I mean, I think a lot of different regions do
need to get some love because they do kind of
get shunted off. Like your color from Utah is talking
about how you know, does my vote count? Of course
your vote counts because it, you know, shows that the
popular vote is still stronger for one party than the other. Now,
I grew up in Maryland, so you know, you could
say it was Sali blue. It's still somewhat is Saldi blue.
But I think when it comes down to changing how
(27:25):
primaries are done, you saw the Democrats try and do
that and New Hampshire was not happy about that because
it's in their state law. But it comes down to
the parties and if the parties want to change that,
And of course there are loyalties to different states. There
are reasons that they're in different states.
Speaker 2 (27:39):
I think for the.
Speaker 6 (27:39):
Democrats they probably should have a little bit more of
a come to Jesus about that, because that is why
South Carolina is so important, because we have such a
diverse electorate here. Even the Republicans are diverse, and when
it comes to ideological backgrounds in South Carolina, which is
why we are so good at picking the eventual nominee
and presidents here because we have a good mix of
folks here versus just Iowa and New Hampshire.
Speaker 2 (28:02):
And you know, New.
Speaker 6 (28:03):
Hampshire voters are completely different than South count voters here.
You're undeclared your independence, that's not such a factor here
in South Carolina. So you do have a little bit
of mix and match. It would be interesting to see
how a regional primary would work. But at the same time,
I think it kind of goes back to what we've
been talking about that we're kind of at the best,
the best way of the system right now. Could it
(28:23):
get better, yes, But if you switch it up entirely,
folks are going to find ways to work it to
their advantage.
Speaker 2 (28:28):
And their disadvantage as well well.
Speaker 1 (28:30):
And one wonders if Alaska would get any love in
original primary system, it would it be part of the
West fly the fly everywhere in Alaska exactly, Tolliver. We're
getting some comments in and listened to the middle dot Com.
Speaker 3 (28:42):
Yeah, Tom, and Nashville rights a thousand times. Yes, it
would be transformative if even a quarter of the country
where to follow Alaska's lead by adopting nonpartisan primaries and
ranked choice voting. Larry Wrights. In today's communication world, there
should be ranked choice voting a hand or all the
state primaries should be on the same day. Does anything
less give every legitimate voter the same voice.
Speaker 1 (29:03):
By the way, just to be clear, we did not
ask just about rank choice voting. But this is all organic.
People are coming up, Kathy Gesel. People love ranked choice voting.
It seems like in the middle audience that's great.
Speaker 7 (29:16):
And you know a lot of people put the people
that push back on it say it's two complicated voters
won't understand it.
Speaker 5 (29:22):
That is not true. We found that was not the
case in Alaska.
Speaker 7 (29:26):
In fact, we did a lot of a lot of
events at state fairs and things like that. Children would
come up and rank the jellyban flavors, showing their parents
how to do it.
Speaker 1 (29:37):
Tulliver. Notching key victories in the caucuses and primaries is
often seen as a roadmap to the nomination and ultimately
to the president's.
Speaker 3 (29:44):
Absolutely, but that's not always the case. Take a listen
to Walter Kronkite in the CBS News report about the
nineteen eighty Iowa Caucuses.
Speaker 8 (29:51):
It looks like a smashing victory for President Carter rover
Senator Kennedy tonight in the Iowa caucuses. And on the
Republican side, George Bush apparently he has done what he
hoped to do coming out of the pack. Guys, the
principal challenger at the front runner, Ronald Reagan. Tonight, I
look at the results and what they mean as CAMPAIGNADI
gets off to an exciting beginning. It looks like a
(30:12):
smashing victory for President Carter over Senator Kennedy tonight in
the Iowa caucuses, and on the Republican side, George Bush
apparently has done what he hoped to do coming out
of the pack. Guys, the principal challenger at the front runner,
Ronald Reagan. Tonight, I look at the results and what
they mean as CAMPAIGNADI gets off to an exciting beginning.
Speaker 3 (30:33):
George H. W. Bush may have edged out Reagan and
the Iowa caucuses, but the Republican nomination ultimately went to
the former California governor.
Speaker 1 (30:40):
Right nineteen eighty and we'll be back with more of
your calls on the middle. This is the Middle on
Jeremy Hobson. If you're just joining us, we're asking if
you think it's time we change the way we nominate
our presidential candidates. Why do base voters in states like Iowa,
New Hampshire and South Carolina have so much power? Call
us at eight four four four Middle. That's eight four
(31:01):
four four six four three three five three, or you
can reach out at Listen to the Middle dot com.
I'm joined by Gavin Jackson, host and reporter at South
Carolina Public Radio, and Kathy Giesel, majority leader of the
Alaska Senate Bipartisan Coalition. A lot of calls on the line,
So let's go to Dye in Columbia, South Carolina. Edie,
Welcome to the Middle.
Speaker 11 (31:20):
Go ahead, Thank you so much.
Speaker 16 (31:24):
First of all, I'll say that Gavin's taking quite a
few of the points that I was going to make,
but a couple, you know, I do want to emphasize
first to several folks who talked about money and campaigns
and how it's you know, just assess, you know, way to.
Speaker 17 (31:43):
Just overboard.
Speaker 9 (31:46):
Folks forget that.
Speaker 16 (31:46):
The reason their money, money and campaigns is the purpose
of that is for candidates to be able to communicate
their message with voters because generally voters are not going
to go out of their way or or you know,
break their normal routine to find.
Speaker 12 (32:03):
Out much about the voters.
Speaker 16 (32:04):
So often, you know there are people who would even
forget to vote. So that is the purpose of money
and campaigns for for communication. And two, I'd like to
say South Carolina, New Hampshire, and Iowa they are great
primary states because of Gavin mentioned, they're smaller, but diverse
in each in in every way, South Carolina more so
(32:26):
than than the others. But that's important because candidates have
to actually interact with individuals. It's this year, it's different.
Speaker 1 (32:39):
Have you met any of the candidates this year?
Speaker 16 (32:42):
I've met almost all of them, okay, all right, with
the exception of of of Donald Trump. I've been those rallies,
but I have not personally met him. But I've shaken
the hands of almost every single one. So I would say,
and that's that one of all. The former chairman used
to say that any South Carolina, They're not going to
(33:02):
vote for you unless they shake your hand at least
three times.
Speaker 1 (33:04):
Right right, right, well, Edie, thank you so much for
that call. Gavin Jackson, a supporter of yours, also Eaty
and such.
Speaker 6 (33:12):
Yeah, and I think I know that which Eatie that
is calling. It's such a small state people that call
your national show. But it's good hearing from Edie. But
also I think it's interesting to note that because we
are in this post Trump political world right where you
were supposed to have to go and shake everyone's hand,
but he has proven that if you were powerful enough,
if you were popular enough, it doesn't matter. You don't
(33:32):
have to go see him. He made his first rally
here in South Carolina. South Carolina this year just what
I think, two weeks ago, for the first time since September.
It was his first rally since September. And it just
goes to show that he didn't need to campaign here.
And he's only going to have another rally on Friday afternoon,
and that'll be his third appearance in the state. And
(33:52):
he doesn't need to do much more than that because
he's trying out the people. They still support him, you know,
come whatever, They're going to support Donald Trump. And that's
just goes to his popularity. But I think going back
to normal times, I guess in normal quotation marks, when
you're having to go knock on doors, you're having to
go talk to people. It does make a difference going
and doing that, and you do anybody. I mean, you
see these events they take money to put on. They
(34:15):
take money to make signs and your signs and those
kinds of things. So and to support staff to get
the organization to get a message out. So it's not
just all negative ads and mailers, but there's a lot
more behind it too.
Speaker 1 (34:25):
Let's go to Kathy, who's in Tampa, Florida. Kathy, what
do you think?
Speaker 9 (34:32):
First?
Speaker 13 (34:32):
Late, thank you for taking my call, of course, and
I want to say I'm kind of changing a little
bit of what I wanted to say. But my first
point when I spoke to you earlier, I spoke to
a colleague.
Speaker 16 (34:46):
Earlier, was that.
Speaker 13 (34:50):
I think that that the voter needs to have more
stay in the primary elections than if that's through ranked
you know, rank choice blowing or whatever that needs to happen,
because I think we're in a situation right now where
many many Americans are not happy with either candidates, but
(35:14):
yet the parties themselves are pretty much forcing those candidates
on us. In my situation, it's pretty extreme. I live
in Florida, and the Executive Committee of the Democratic the
Florida Democratic Party a number of months ago decided that
(35:38):
they would support Joe Biden no matter what, and that
we would not have a Democratic current primary in this state.
And I believe that I was just enfranchised. I supported
Joe Biden in twenty twenty, but I no longer support him,
(36:00):
and I know many other people are very unhappy with
the thought of him having a second term.
Speaker 1 (36:08):
Kathy, thank you, thank you for that call. I mean,
let's go to Kathy Giesel on that on what Kathy
was saying there.
Speaker 7 (36:16):
Yeah, Jeremy, I totally agree with Kathy. You know, when
we narrow it down to just two candidates, that's that's
totally limiting. And she pointed out she was disenfranchised because
a party took control.
Speaker 5 (36:30):
That's the beauty of having an open primary.
Speaker 7 (36:33):
With four or five some states, some states early in five,
but having four or five go forward from the primary
into the general, so that the electorate has more than
just two choices, and they have multiple choices in ranking
as well.
Speaker 5 (36:51):
You can actually hear the voter's voice.
Speaker 1 (36:53):
Then well, and Gavin Jackson, she brought up the fact
that most Americans, and in fact, in the polls, most
Americans don't want the two candidates that look likely to
be on the ticket this time around, exactly.
Speaker 6 (37:06):
Yeah, and that goes back to primary voters versus general
election voters and the motivated, passionate primary voter who was
going to go out and vote either early in South
Carolina or on a Saturday in South Carolina and vote.
But to the point where we're talking about, you know,
being disenfranchised, I don't think that's entirely what happens when
you have an incumbent leader of your party who's in
(37:28):
office running again, like Joe Biden, or like we said,
Donald Trump or you know, Barack Obama in the past,
that we didn't have those primaries because it's a foregone conclusion.
Speaker 2 (37:36):
It costs money to put on primaries. We're talking about
money to put.
Speaker 6 (37:39):
On a primary, a perfunctory primary when you have an incumbent.
You know, that's kind of a waste in some sense.
Speaker 1 (37:45):
When they're run by the parties, and the parties really
have no interest in having a contested election because it
might hurt the candidate who ends up being there at
the end.
Speaker 6 (37:54):
Yeah, the state still puts on our primaries too, So
it's like, you know, ninety six percent of voters voted
for Joe Biden on February third. You know, Dean Phillips
didn't even get two percent here, Mary Williamson did get
two percent. The voices were heard. I mean you saw
it in New Hampshire. Two people wrote in Joe Biden.
He wasn't able to ballot there. So it's different when
it's incumbents. And I get what you're saying, but you know,
(38:16):
wait for twenty twenty eight because it's gonna be wide
open on both sides.
Speaker 1 (38:18):
Right, let's go to Kevin, who's in Kansas City. Kevin,
welcome to the middle.
Speaker 17 (38:24):
What do you think, Hey, thanks for taking my call.
I think that they should reverse everything and go back
to simple. You have two months or three months to
have where you can compat campaign and then you're done.
You're done campaigning, whether it's social media, on TV, radio,
(38:47):
all of that, because it's that media and all of that.
I should say negative campaigning that goes on that really
ruins it for everybody because I get sick tired of it.
After the right after whether Trump got elected or Biden
got elected, the next day it was, hey, he's already running.
(39:09):
He's doing a campaign. I'm tired of that. I want
them to go back to I want I'd like it
to be really simple. You got two, three, four, maybe
four months done and then everybody's got to make their
choice and let everybody be on the ballot.
Speaker 1 (39:23):
And you're in Kansas City, so you get the ads
from both Missouri and Kansas.
Speaker 17 (39:30):
Well, I'm not even from Kansas City. I just happened
to be living here. I'm not from Kansas City. I'm
originally from Hawaii and so but the thing is, though,
it's just too much, too much money spent and wasted
on stuff that could be used for something far more
useful to to, you know, help the country. We're wasting
(39:53):
it on it.
Speaker 1 (39:54):
We're wasting Sorry, Kevin, thank you so much for that,
called Kathy Giesel. A shorter campaign is what Kevin is
calling for.
Speaker 7 (40:01):
Well, yeah, but that means that the voters have to
be engaged early on. But Kevin also made the point
about negative campaigning, and that's one thing that this actually changes.
Speaker 5 (40:13):
In rank choice voting. You even the.
Speaker 7 (40:16):
Party I'm a Republican, even that hardcore Democrat, I need
to be able to appeal to him and listen to
his voice and ask for the second place vote from him.
Speaker 5 (40:29):
You have to.
Speaker 7 (40:31):
It really does damper down the negative campaigning because you
have to find middle ground with everyone.
Speaker 1 (40:39):
Let's go to Rocky in Birmingham, Alabama. Hi, Rocky, welcome
to the middle Hey, how you doing doing well?
Speaker 2 (40:47):
What do you say?
Speaker 10 (40:48):
What do you think?
Speaker 18 (40:51):
So I kind of have a differing opinion than I
guess everybody else. I like the ranked choice voting and
what would stand for, but I would rather see complete
down ballots where nobody's party is listed. You know, if
you're here to support the country, you should be able
(41:11):
to reach both Republican and Democrats where they are. And I,
as a voter, should be able to decide which Democrat
and which Republican is best for the position that we're
voting for. And I'm also a fan of midterm elections
going the rank choice voting way. And what I mean is,
(41:32):
if you have four people you've selected at the end
of that mid term, when that midterm election would start,
you simply say to the vote the elected people, Hey
we've got four people that were chosen. Of those four people,
these are the top two vote getters. If the voters
tonight decide that you, as their elected official have not
(41:56):
done your job. They're going to vote know on you,
and the second person that they voted for is going
to be the replacement for you, and that eliminates that
additional election cycle that everybody's already fussed about in the
first place.
Speaker 1 (42:11):
Rocky, thank you for that call. And Gavin, let me
ask you about one thing that Rocky brought up there,
which is like, what if you had a ballot that
didn't have the party affiliation on there?
Speaker 6 (42:20):
Yeah, I mean I think that also goes back to states,
because that's something that you can do down to the
local level when it comes to school boards, right, like
you know, they're going to make school boards partisan at
a time when we probably don't need more parsonship, right,
don't need to know who's a Republican Democrat. You just
want to who's for kids, for example. So that's state politics.
That's why people should really be following what's going on
in their state house, like Senator Giesold and others in
(42:42):
the podcast that I host.
Speaker 2 (42:43):
But I want to go back to what the other call.
Speaker 6 (42:45):
We're talking about money and doing this sort of shorter sprint, right,
short campaign cycle, because then again kind of goes back
to what we're talking about, where money becomes even a
bigger factor because you have to have money to do
a short campaign in a country with three hundred and
some million people out of European country where it's this big,
and you can do a snap election or whatever. I
don't even know how that works, but it works for them,
I guess. But we have all these states and you
(43:07):
want to talk about being disenfranchised.
Speaker 2 (43:09):
No one's going to come to Hawaii, Organsas.
Speaker 6 (43:12):
They're going to go to California, They're going to go
to Chicago, They're going to go to New York and
bank on those folks to turn out, because then, you know,
do we even have you know, e electoral college if
we do that process.
Speaker 2 (43:22):
There's so many factors at play.
Speaker 6 (43:23):
And yes, I think people are really expressing their concern
and they're tired of this process, and hopefully there's some
room for reform because people are looking for something. But
to do a wholesale change like that would really just
up end things and again, like I said, would make
there be some advantages, but there also be a lot
of disadvantages and a lot of side effects that we.
Speaker 2 (43:41):
Don't know about well.
Speaker 1 (43:42):
And by the way you mentioned, we have I think
three hundred and thirty million people in the country. Now,
we said, we've been doing this system with Iowa going first,
and for the most partsin's like nineteen seventy two. At
that point there were less than two hundred million people
in the United States. So think about that. We've expanded
so much and we're still using pretty much the same
system them. Let's go to Mike, who's in Belleville, Illinois. Mike,
(44:04):
Welcome to the Middle What do.
Speaker 19 (44:05):
You think, Hi, thanks for taking my call. I think
the ring file system is a great, you know, idea,
and I would like to try to explore that. But
I'd be more interested in interested in just widening the
pool because, like you know, when the founding fathers were,
you know, crafting all their documents and all these important
(44:28):
decisions that are being felt, you know, centuries later, we're
being crafted like those guys were the best and the brightest,
at least the best and the brightest out of the
people that were entitled enough to have voices, right, And
I would just like to see like something more on
the lines of having representatives come from all fifty states
(44:49):
and then narrowing it down from there, maybe doing a
midterm or something like that. But I would love to
see more people in the pool and just you know,
rather than just having these chosen people come from two
different positions, having a much broader field to choose from,
and if the rank and file system would would pair
(45:09):
well with that, I you know, I'd love it, But
I just don't like this that right now we're choosing
between these two dudes, Like, how did that happen?
Speaker 17 (45:19):
Mike?
Speaker 1 (45:19):
Thank you so much for that call, And I am
going to give Jim and Casper Wyoming one more chance here. Jim,
if you're there, go ahead.
Speaker 20 (45:27):
I am thank you for having me on. I think
there's two things that need to happen. The first is
we need to get corporate donations to the to the
candidates down to exactly zero. That way, the candidates are
not beholden to any any particular corporation or megacorp or whatever,
and that way they'll only beholden to the people that donate.
(45:50):
And then the other option here, I think the entire country,
every single state, needs to move to a model similar
to what Nebraska and Maine had have that distributed electoral
vote and this way, when someone is in a state
like Washington, who is dominated on the west coast by
(46:12):
Seattle and Tacoma, very very very blue. But then you
disenfranchise the people in the eastern side of the state,
which are generally red, and so those voters don't come
out because they know they're going to get their votes
can be overridden by by that major population center. Plus,
this also brings into play the smaller states like Wyoming, Montana, Idaho, Alaska, Ye,
(46:36):
because they can actually then split their votes and then
they become part of the electoral college. Right, and this
model does not violate the constitutionality of the electoral college.
Speaker 1 (46:45):
Well, let me bring that to Kathy Giesel. You know,
he's talking about states like Nebraska where you, like, you
have one congressional district that can go one way and
the rest of the state can go the other way
in the election. Just briefly your thoughts on that idea.
Speaker 7 (46:57):
You know, in Alaska it's a winner take all. But
that is it's actually a way of having a ranked
choice vote, almost, isn't it. It does allow we only
have three three electoral votes, so I'm not real experience
with states that have more than I have large numbers, right,
So I'm not sure I'm an expert on this one.
Speaker 1 (47:19):
Well, and I wonder if there would ever be a
chance where Alaska would decide that it's just going to
have one one electoral vote from the Anchorage area and
then the rest from somewhere else.
Speaker 15 (47:27):
I don't know.
Speaker 1 (47:28):
Yeah, Okay, we'll have that be the last word. We
don't have time for a quiz telegon. I'm sorry to say,
but I want to thank my guest, Gavin Jackson, host,
a reporter at South Carolina Public Radio, hosts of the
South Carolina Lead podcast. Gavin, thank you so much for
being on the Middle. Thanks and Kathy Giesel, majority leader
of the Alaska Senate Bipartisan Coalition. Wonderful to have you
on as well.
Speaker 5 (47:49):
Thank you my pleasure.
Speaker 1 (47:51):
Now next week, Tolliver, we are back on the road,
broadcasting live from kue R in Salt Lake City with
a single guest, the Governor of Utah, Spencer Cox, who
is a publican who's chair of the National Government Association,
and his key issue is getting people to disagree without
demonizing each other. Isn't that nice? He will be with
us for the full hour, taking calls at eight four
(48:13):
four four, Middle.
Speaker 3 (48:14):
And By the way, make sure to sign up for
our free weekly newsletter at Listen to the Middle dot com.
Speaker 1 (48:18):
The Middle is brought to you by Long Nook Media,
distributed by Illinois Public Media in Urbana, Illinois, and produced
by Joanne Jennings, Harrison Patino, John Barth, and Danny Alexander.
Our technical director is Jason Croft. Our theme music was
composed by Andrew Haig. Thanks to Nashville Public Radio, iHeartMedia,
and the more than four hundred public radio stations that
(48:39):
are making it possible for people across the country to
Listen to the Middle again. Salt Lake City next week
with the Governor of Utah eight four four four Middle
with your questions and comments. I'm Jeremy Hobson. I'll talk
to you next week.
Speaker 16 (49:04):
Between names
Welcome to the Middle. I'm Jeremy Hobson along here with Tolliver.
Hi Tolliver, Hello, my dear friend.
Speaker 2 (00:10):
Happy Thursday.
Speaker 1 (00:11):
Happy Thursday. And by the way, I've been looking up
at the moon wondering can I see the lander because
they just landed for the first time since nineteen seventy two.
I want to tell our listeners keep your questions about
that for April fourth, when astrophysicist Neil deGrasse Tyson is
going to be on the Middle. We're going to talk
about space tonight. I'm not going to talk about nineteen
(00:31):
seventy two. We're going to go back to nineteen sixty eight.
Right now. I want to set the stage here. Lyndon
Johnson was the President of the United States. The Vietnam
War was raging, and Robert F. Kennedy got into the
race as a Democratic challenger to Johnson on March sixteenth,
as in about a month from now, Johnson decided not
to run for reelection. Two weeks later. Kennedy won a
(00:53):
number of primaries before being assassinated, as you know, in
June of nineteen sixty eight. The eventual nominee of the
party was Hubert Humphrey, who didn't even compete in any
of the primaries and of course ended up losing to
Richard Nixon in the general election.
Speaker 3 (01:06):
Yeah, gobsmacking to this day.
Speaker 1 (01:08):
While so after all that, in nineteen seventy two, the
Democrats started the process where a handful of smaller states,
starting with Iowa, have a ton of power in selecting
the nominee, and Republicans followed that model starting in nineteen
seventy six. And the result, Tulliver, is that after just
a few contests this year, Joe Biden is basically uncontested
(01:30):
and Donald Trump thinks the race is over here. He is,
after winning the New Hampshire primary, mocking Nikki Haley for
remaining in the race.
Speaker 4 (01:40):
And when I watched her in the fancy dress that
probably wasn't so fancy, come up, I said, what's she doing?
We won, and she did the same thing last week,
but Ron beat her also, you know, Ron came in
second and he left.
Speaker 1 (01:56):
She came in third, and she's still hanging around. Okay,
So we want to hear from you this hour. Is
it time we change the way we nominate our presidential candidates? Tolliver?
How can people reach us?
Speaker 3 (02:08):
Call eight four four four Middle. That's eight four four
four six four three three five three or reach out
at Listen to the Middle dot com.
Speaker 1 (02:15):
And right now, let's meet our panel. Gavin Jackson is
a host and reporter at South Carolina Public Radio. He's
been traveling around the country following the campaign. He hosts
the weekly South Carolina Lead podcast. He joins us from
Myrtle Beach. Gavin, Welcome to the Middle.
Speaker 2 (02:30):
Thanks for having me, Jeremy.
Speaker 1 (02:31):
And also joining us Kathy Geesel, the majority leader of
the Alaska Senate Bipartisan Coalition. Senator Geesel, welcome to you.
Speaker 5 (02:40):
Thank you, Jeremy.
Speaker 1 (02:41):
And before we get to the phones, I want to
ask each of you a couple of questions. Gavin Jackson,
does it feel to you right now like the race
is still alive on the Republican side.
Speaker 6 (02:52):
I like to think so, Jeremy, since I've been covering
it so much, But yeah, I think, you know, I
think if you talk to Nikki Haley, she says very
much so. Right like, there's still enthusiasm on the ground
here in South Carolina, her home state, of course, folks
are still turning out to these events. She's been having
a bus tour for the past two weeks leading up
two Saturdays primary, and folks you'ing on the small towns
(03:13):
of South Carolina, like her hometown of Bamberg. There are
maybe about fifty to sixty people shown up there. In
some bigger areas she has even in thousands of folks.
I've seen some Donald Trump rallies. He's had a couple
thousand folks at his events too, So people are still
amped up. They do see it as somewhat of a
foregone conclusion. And that clip you played from Donald Trump,
Nicki Haley loves to mention that clip on stage when
(03:34):
she's out campaigning and really getting the folks energized because
she talks she uses that example specifically to talk about
how he was in a tizzy or she says he's
unhinged that night because he did win New Hampshire and
he focused on her and her dress, which you mentioned
right there. So it's a pretty good appause line, it's
a pretty good laugh line. And a lot of folks
you talk to, he are just really ready for something different,
(03:55):
So they are really hoping, you know, hoping against all
odds that something happens for Nicki Haley going forward. But
as we all know, like she has not won a
state yet, and she's poised to win her home state.
Speaker 1 (04:06):
And then Super Tuesday comes up very quickly. Senator Giesel,
One of the reasons we wanted to have you on
is because you're in a state that recently changed the
way it nominates candidate. It's not for president, but for
other offices. It uses ranked choice voting, which means the
top vote getters in any party advanced to the general election,
then people rank them in order. Has that made a
big difference in Alaska?
Speaker 7 (04:28):
Well, it has, Jeremy, But let me clarify a little
bit more about our system.
Speaker 5 (04:33):
Our system is a primary that is open.
Speaker 7 (04:36):
In other words, every candidate Republican, Democrat, Independent are all
listed on the same ballot, and the top four vote
getters go forward. This is a key piece if you
really want to do pure.
Speaker 5 (04:50):
Election reform.
Speaker 7 (04:53):
It requires that open primary and then you go to
that rank choice voting, those top four go forward. So
if we were to apply this to this presidential election,
wouldn't that be interesting?
Speaker 1 (05:05):
Well, and it's not just open in that way, it's
also anybody can vote in that primary, right.
Speaker 5 (05:11):
Yes, that is correct.
Speaker 7 (05:12):
Thank you that is a key point and everyone both
on the same ballot.
Speaker 1 (05:17):
And we've mentioned that you're part of this bipartisan Senate coalition.
Is that because of ranked choice voting, it is.
Speaker 5 (05:23):
A key part of it.
Speaker 7 (05:25):
Yes, we have had a Byparson coalition in the past,
but it's been more than a decade. And the open
primary and the instant runoff another name for ranked choice
voting really opened the door to again a by Parson
coalition in our state, Senate.
Speaker 1 (05:42):
Gavin just before we get to the phones and they
are ringing, you're base in South Carolina. I imagine South
Carolinians think the system is just find the way it
is because they have so much power in the campaign.
Speaker 8 (05:53):
Yeah.
Speaker 6 (05:53):
I mean, we do have open primaries too, and there
is a non binding question on the Republican ballot asking
folks if they do want to close the Prime Mary's
and there might be more steam behind that than there
was in the past because you know, the reason we
don't register by party in South Carolina is because, yes,
you might want to vote for a Republican governor, but
you know the sheriff or you know a coroner who
is a Democrat, so you don't want to have to
(06:14):
pick and choose that way.
Speaker 2 (06:15):
But more and more at.
Speaker 6 (06:16):
The local level, those folks, for the credit of the
state Republican Party are being to become Republicans because the
state is becoming more Republican. Unlike our neighbors Georgia and
North Carolina, we're still very Ruby right here in South Carolina.
So yeah, open primary except for folks who voted in
the February third Democratic primary, which Joe Biden one, you know,
hands down right as we were first of the nation
that time.
Speaker 1 (06:36):
So the number to call is eight four four four Middle.
That's eight four four four six four three three five three.
Let's go to Dwayne, who is joining us from New Orleans. Dwayne,
welcome to the Middle. What do you think, Hi, Beeing.
Speaker 9 (06:48):
I think it's a very interesting question.
Speaker 10 (06:51):
I think the I'm in Louisiana and so we find
just observe all the primary stuff going on, and we
in our states have an open primary, right, and it's
a little bit different than the system you described, But
I think a system, a national open primary, would do
a lot to reduce the partisanship that is just ramping
(07:15):
through politics.
Speaker 1 (07:16):
Now why do you think.
Speaker 10 (07:21):
I think it's because of the primary system. In the primaries,
the candidates have to run so hard to get the
party base that they kind of go all in on
the extreme, you know, right or left of their party
to try to get through the primary, and it's hard
to walk that back during the general election.
Speaker 1 (07:42):
Dwayne, thank you so much. Yeah for that call. Let
me let me take that to Kathay Gesal. You know
that we've said before that the general election is one
in the middle, the primary is one on the fringes.
Do you think that that, you know, having an open
primary and national primary, as Dwayne said, would make a
big difference.
Speaker 5 (07:58):
Well, it made a big difference here, for certainly for me.
Speaker 7 (08:02):
I actually lost the closed primary election in twenty twenty.
Speaker 5 (08:07):
I had already served in the Senate for ten years.
I was up for reelection.
Speaker 7 (08:11):
I was not far enough right conservative enough for the
Republican Party here, so they put up another candidate and
I lost in the primary in twenty twenty. That same election,
that same general election, the people of Alaska voted on
a citizen's initiative that created the open primary. Top four
of the primary go forward and then the rank choice voting.
Speaker 5 (08:33):
Or instant runoff.
Speaker 7 (08:35):
Because of that new system, I was able to win
in the primary. In fact, I did have the most
votes in the primary out of the candidates that were running,
and then went.
Speaker 5 (08:45):
On to win the rank choice voting.
Speaker 7 (08:47):
What it does is it changes how the candidate campaigns.
Speaker 5 (08:52):
I completely changed.
Speaker 7 (08:54):
I was no longer appealing to my base and as
the previous caller said, trying to be the most conservative
or most appealing to the Republican Party. I happened to
be a Republican instead. I had to do I had
to speak to everyone, I had to listen to everyone,
and I had to find common ground with everyone.
Speaker 5 (09:14):
It completely changed how I ran for election.
Speaker 1 (09:17):
Gavin, you know, you've been following the candidates. We have
seen a little bit of a change in Nikki Haley
ever since New Hampshire. But they're still going after the base, right,
I mean, certainly Donald Trump is is Haley still going
after the base?
Speaker 6 (09:32):
You know, It's interesting because she does have her base
of support here in South Carolina, but she's really aware
of like that that ceiling and that ceiling that Trump
has and his cemented foundation, and so what she's doing
in you know, in both her speeches and in even
her media appearances, I mean she was on NPR today
with Steve enskeep right, like, was the last time you've
(09:53):
heard that she's really making that broad pitch. Two more
folks in the party to which to her detriments somewhat
from some of these these Republicans are in the Trump
camp who are saying that she is, you know, for
the Democrats, she is a Democrat, which could be further
from the truth. I mean, she just came out in
supportive personhood today, so like by the other day, I mean,
it kind of a reminder of that fact. But you know,
(10:15):
she's throwing that red meat out there for the base
to remind them that she is a Republican. She was
MAGA before MAGA existed. She was tea party right. She
got it in twenty ten as governor, she was touched
by Sarah Palin, former governor at there in Alaska. So
I mean that really got her propelled into the situation.
So I think it's it's she's doing what she can
to get as many votes as you can, and that
includes getting independence disenfranchised just effect, I should say Democrats.
(10:39):
Democrats who sat out the Democratic primary earlier this month
because it was a foregone conclusion for Joe Biden. I mean,
we typically don't even have a primary for the incumbent.
We didn't for Trump, we didn't for Obama. This that
Democratic primary was a thank you to from Joe Biden
and as well as right, you know, because we helped
select him as the nominee back in twenty twenty. And
(11:01):
of course the DNC cherish Jamie Harrison, former Democratic Party
leader here in South Carolina.
Speaker 1 (11:06):
By the way, fair to say, Senator Giesel that Sarah
Palin is not in Congress right now because of ranked
choice voting.
Speaker 7 (11:12):
No, that would not be fair. I am going to
dispel that myth. Okay, it was not because of ranked
choice voting. It was because Sarah did not run well.
Alaskans have a problem.
Speaker 1 (11:25):
With her, Okay, Tolliver. One of the side effects of
our current primary system is that a single moment in
the early States can make or break a candidacy.
Speaker 3 (11:33):
That's right, Jeremy case in point two thousand and four,
when Democratic hopefull Howard Dean placed third in the Iowa
caucas and got very excited.
Speaker 1 (11:41):
And you know something, you know something. Not only are
we going to New Hampshire, Tom Harkin, We're going.
Speaker 8 (11:47):
To South Carolina and Oklahoma and Arizona and North Dakota.
Speaker 1 (11:51):
And New Mexico.
Speaker 7 (11:53):
We're going to California and Texas and New York, and
we're going to South Dakota.
Speaker 1 (11:57):
And Oregon and Washington.
Speaker 11 (11:59):
Mission good.
Speaker 1 (12:01):
And then we're going to watch it and see you
to take back the White House. Just like just waiting
for that the whole time, and you knew it was coming.
By the way, Uh, The Middle is raising money as
we get into this campaign election season. You can contribute
tax deductible contribution at Listen to the Middle dot com.
(12:22):
If you're a fan of the podcast, we hope you
will do that in any amount, maybe a monthly contribution,
that would be wonderful help us get out on the
road leading up to the election. That's a Listen to
the Middle dot com. We'll be right back in a minute.
This is the Middle. I'm Jeremy Hobson. If you're just tuning.
In the Middle is a national call in show. We're
focused on elevating voices from the middle geographically, politically, philosophically,
(12:44):
or maybe you just want to meet in the middle.
This hour, we're asking is it time to change the
way we nominate our presidential candidates, whether you do think
it is or you don't, We want to hear from you. Tolliver,
what's the number.
Speaker 3 (12:56):
It's eight four four four six four three three, which
is also eight four four four Middle. You can also
write to us at Listen to the Middle dot com
or on social media.
Speaker 1 (13:06):
I'm joined by Gavin Jackson, host and reporter at South
Carolina Public Radio, and Kathy Giesel, the majority leader of
the Alaska Senate Bipartisan Coalition. Let's go to Sally, who's
calling from Durham, North Carolina. Sally, go ahead. What do
you think?
Speaker 11 (13:20):
I think that the whole system is a mess. I
think that the candidates have to raise so much money.
It's just they spend so much money, and environmentally it's
terrible because they fly all over the place.
Speaker 1 (13:33):
But it's the money that bothers.
Speaker 11 (13:35):
You really very upset. Yes, yes, the money and the
environmental degradations.
Speaker 12 (13:41):
So how how.
Speaker 1 (13:42):
Would you change it? What would you like to see happen?
Speaker 11 (13:44):
I'd like to have ranked choice footing M. Do you
think that a national campaign? Yeah, I think a national
campaign where like there was just a time limit, you know,
for a month or two you advertise on you know,
online on television, on the radio, and so keep it shorter.
Speaker 13 (14:11):
Than it is.
Speaker 1 (14:12):
Keep it shorter than it is right now, Sally, thank
you for that. Gavin Jackson, what about the length of it,
Let's talk about that part of it. It does go
on for a very long time. We mentioned, you know,
back in the nineteen sixties and how things started like
in March. Now Iowa coxes are early January. It goes
on forever, and.
Speaker 2 (14:29):
Jeremy, I want to keep it that way.
Speaker 6 (14:30):
I want to keep it not like the entire process,
but Iowa going first, because you see how it just
starts up two years out, however many years out from
the actual election day, and then it's non stop. I mean,
South Carolina is first in the South. We became for
the Republicans, of its first in the nation for the Democrats.
I don't know if that's going to hang around in
twenty twenty eight. I low key hope it doesn't because
(14:52):
it will become like Iowa where they are just coming through,
because it's gonna be wide open in twenty twenty eight.
But at the same time, you talk to Iowan's, you
talk to folks in New Hampshire, you talked to in
South Carolina. They love meeting these people, they love seeing
these people. Yes, they're bombarded with mailers, with advertising. You
can't turn the TV on with all the ads. But
they like to go out and see these people and
actually ask them the questions and get the answers.
Speaker 2 (15:12):
The money is fascinating.
Speaker 6 (15:13):
And to her point, you know, Nikki Haley flud commercial
the entire time pretty much, and I think she still
pretty much is.
Speaker 2 (15:18):
She's got a bus going across the state.
Speaker 6 (15:20):
So I mean, you could call that economical and somewhat
environmentally friendly, but yeah, there is a lot that goes
into it. But you know, it also supports a lot
of folks too, supports a lot of jobs and gets
people engaged in a way. And it still doesn't engage
enough people because looking voter turnout, they still don't even
turn out really well.
Speaker 1 (15:35):
And Kathy Giesel, you know you're you're in Alaska. When
was the last time a presidential candidate came there for
a campaign stop? Like, it's too late in the process.
It's probably not big. I think it's on Super Tuesday.
One of the parties is doing it on Super Tuesday.
So out of all the states on Super Tuesday, why
would they ever choose to go to Little Alaska and
it's just not not enough delegates.
Speaker 7 (15:54):
We only had yeah, three electoral votes, and I don't
know that a presidential candidate has ever.
Speaker 1 (16:01):
Yeah wow. But so then, so then how do you
feel about these these states like New Hampshire and South
Carolina and Iowa getting so much power?
Speaker 5 (16:10):
Well, it is.
Speaker 7 (16:11):
It is concerning to Alaskans, It's true, and that's part
of the reason there's a lot of Alaskans that want
to go to the national popular vote for a president.
Not enough yet that we would make that change, but
there's certainly a lot of discussion about it because we
are pretty much left out.
Speaker 1 (16:30):
Let's go to Scott, who's calling from Charleston, West Virginia. Scott,
welcome to the middle. What do you think how should
the process changer? Should it?
Speaker 14 (16:38):
Well, I was just listening to that. I like all
those ideas, and I've read a lot about frank choice voting,
and i like it because it gets the middle to
pick the candidates. And that's what this country needs now,
because avoid the extremes, because it's a zero sum game
of the two extremes. If it's good for the other side,
well we're not for it got paralyzed government. And it's
(17:01):
a great example what's happening in the House right now
where the House majority or the House Speaker is essentially
threatened lose his job. What we need And I told
your producer, I'm in West Virginia. We have a Republican
supermajority in West Virginia. Legislature's in session right now, and
West Virginia Public Radio had a great interview with a
(17:23):
couple of legislators and one talked about ranked choice voting,
or was asked about ranked choice voting, he says, Oh,
don't want that because it takes too long to get
the results, so people think it's being rigged. Yes, what
And so he dismissed it right out of hand. And
I think that's wrong because if it's clear and presented
(17:44):
to people what's happening, and you've got you rank your votes,
then it is a good way to do it.
Speaker 1 (17:50):
You get, Scott, let me ask you a question because
you're you're in West Virginia, which is home to of
course Joe Manchin, who you mentioned you like the middle.
I mean, he's got to be one of the most
middle members of the Senate. You know, sometimes switched over
and supports what the Republicans want. Do you like him?
Speaker 14 (18:07):
He's all right. I think he's tried to be too powerful.
He should have, you know, used that power earlier rather
than trying to hold out and force both sides.
Speaker 13 (18:18):
And all that.
Speaker 14 (18:18):
But you know I have voted for him before.
Speaker 1 (18:21):
Okay, Scott, thank you so much for that call. And
Kathy Giesel another lover of ranked choice voting. It seems
to be very popular.
Speaker 7 (18:29):
Yes, and he mentioned you mentioned Joe Manchin. Of course,
he's good friends with our Senator Lisa Markowski, who is
also a modern Republican and gets re elected and was
re elected under the rank choice voting system.
Speaker 5 (18:43):
He's absolutely right.
Speaker 7 (18:44):
It does allow folks to to actually have more of
their voice heard in terms of choosing someone that it
has common ground with them, right, that that actually isn't
out on the fringes, but actually wants.
Speaker 5 (18:59):
To get something done.
Speaker 7 (19:00):
That's really what an open primary, coupled with rank choice
voting allows candidates to do to It allows the voter
to elect candidates that are willing to work with everyone
and willing to work on the key issues that the
citizens want, not what the parties want.
Speaker 1 (19:20):
Gavin Jackson.
Speaker 6 (19:22):
Yeah, and I wanted to kind of circle back there,
Jeremy to the caller from North Carolina. I was also
kind of excited when he said Charleston, Charleston, South Como,
West Virginia. But when she was talking about the expense
and the money that goes into it, you know, not
everyone starts off these presidential bids with money. And the
advantage of places like Iowa, like New Hampshire, like South
Carolina is that they're affordable, they're small to get around in.
(19:44):
Like in South Carolina, you can go from the upstate
like Greenville the state to Charleston all in one day
and they're all like, you know, two hours apart from
each other, and that's affordable. And that way you can
kind of get your message out, you can kind of
test your message, you can reach people and even possibly
catch fire. I think Nicky Haley is a pretty good
example of how that worked. You know, she was kind
of counted out in the beginning because she wasn't wrong
(20:06):
to santus. She didn't have thirty two million dollars in
the bank like Senator Tim Scott. But she did make
an impression on folks during those debates. As we kind
of expected her to do, and that propelled her to
do more, to race her profile more, and she still
want it and those guys are well.
Speaker 1 (20:21):
And this is one of the one of the things
that people have said about why not to do a
national primary where all the states voted at the same time,
is because it would just it would make it so
expensive to be really competitive in a race like that.
Speaker 2 (20:32):
President Michael Bloomberg.
Speaker 1 (20:34):
Right, oh, yeah, we did he win. Let's go to Eric,
who's in Saint Paul, Minnesota. Eric, welcome to the middle
Go ahead.
Speaker 2 (20:43):
Yeah.
Speaker 12 (20:44):
I So something happened in twenty sixteen that I haven't
heard much discussion of, but to me, this was very
important to getting us to where we are today. And
that year there was a lot of discussion about the
super delegates at the national convention, and the debate was
happening at both parties, and my recollection is that Republicans
actually went ahead and got rid of the super delegates.
(21:05):
Democrats didn't, although among my friends, I know there's a
lot of questioning about why we have them, and they
were hoping for change. But I guess in my mind,
I've been thinking that it was really the end of
the super delegates in the Republican Party. That opened it
up to an unconventional, extreme populist candidate who could take
over the party. So, you know, I guess advocating for
(21:28):
super delegates might not be the most popular position, but
maybe they have a check on the most extreme candidates
or candidates that are going to move the parties too
far from more centrist position.
Speaker 1 (21:39):
The Democrats. Now, I think fifteen percent of the Democratic
Party delegates at the DNC are still super delegates, but
I believe that is down from what it used to be.
And you know, Gavin Jackson, I'll go back to you
on this, because one of the reasons why we have
the primaries and the caucuses and let the people vote
was to get out of the sort of back room
(22:02):
party boss thing that basically the super delegates is like
a relic.
Speaker 6 (22:05):
Of yeah, and it's almost like, you know, it's everything
with evolution in politics. It seems like we get we
keep going that one caller was talking about trying to
make things better, and it's like, this is the best
we got so far. But of course, you know, when
you're talking about money, we're not talking about delegates here,
but money. Citizens United that changed the game, of course,
but you know, it seems still to be the best way,
(22:26):
the most democratic, small d democratic way to do this
entire process is to do it state by state. When
these delegates, you know, sometimes it's a matter of proportional
delegates in states versus the winner take all system in
certain states. You know, you're seeing that that's gonna be
in California for Super Tuesday. It's in South Carolina with
our fifty delegates, but it's broken down by state different
you know, you can still win proportionally depending on how
(22:46):
many votes you get. And in South Carolina there's at
large delegates, and there's also delegates that are allocated by
our seven congressional districts too, so if you do well
in one district, you can pick up a couple. But
for the most part, that winner take all system really
is the key there.
Speaker 1 (23:00):
Let's go to Olivia. Who's in American Fork Utah, Olivia,
Welcome to the middle. What do you think?
Speaker 15 (23:07):
I have never liked the electoral college in general for
elections or nominations because as a leftist in a super
red state, it feels like my vote doesn't even count,
you know, it just feels like I'm throwing away my vote.
And I always look at swing states and I go,
should I move there to make a difference, And I
just think that the popular vote should hold more sway,
(23:30):
when I first turned eighteen and learned a little to vote,
I was unaware that popular vote isn't how it worked,
because that's what I was taught in school. You know
that whoever gets the most vote wins, and so I
just didn't understand the weight of my vote, which it
depends on the electoral college, and I think we should
(23:50):
have ranked voting.
Speaker 1 (23:52):
Yeah, another lover of ranked voting. And by the way,
thank you for bringing up the electoral college. I'm reserving
the right, Tolliver to hold on to electoral college as
a whole show of the middle in the fall. Right,
we've got time, We've got time to do a whole.
But I will ask you, Senator Giesel, about the point
that Kathy was making there, which is that, you know,
(24:14):
do the people have enough say in the presidential race?
Speaker 7 (24:19):
Sure that was a good point, and actually, in ranked
choice voting they would have more of a say because remember,
they get to choose. They are most motivated to choose
their favorite candidate for their first choice right, and maybe
they realize that first choice is not going to make it,
so they get a second choice. So really it's it
really is more of a popular type vote to have
(24:42):
that ranking.
Speaker 1 (24:44):
Are you surprised by the way at how many people
have called in so far to say that they want
ranked choice voting, Senator.
Speaker 7 (24:49):
I'm thrilled to hear it. You know, so many states
are considering it now. I've talked to folks in Wisconsin, Idaho, Utah.
Speaker 5 (24:58):
Yeah, it's great.
Speaker 1 (25:00):
Although there's a movement in Alaska now just a couple
of years in or to get rid of it.
Speaker 5 (25:06):
Yes, there is a referendum to withdraw its.
Speaker 7 (25:09):
A citizen group is doing that, and it's a citizen
group that was a supporter of Sarah Palin feels that
the system is why she lost.
Speaker 5 (25:18):
That is not true.
Speaker 7 (25:20):
She is not terribly popular here and the way that campaign, well,
I can tell you more about that election if there's
time sometime, But she just was not a good candidate,
and the Democrat Alaska native woman who won was really
a good candidate. And we're all well, many of us
are very very pleased with the work that Mary Piltol.
Speaker 1 (25:41):
Is right, Let's go to Jane in Marlboro, Massachusetts. Jane,
Welcome to the middle. What do you think?
Speaker 2 (25:51):
Hi?
Speaker 1 (25:51):
Jane, Ti, Hi, you're on here, go ahead?
Speaker 8 (25:56):
What do you think?
Speaker 9 (25:58):
Sorry? I am a fan of rank choice voting, and
here in Massachusetts it got voted out when we had
a referendum and it seemed like a lot of people
didn't understand the concept. But I wanted to comment about
the primary issue, which I don't believe Iowa and New
Hampshire should continue to be the first so called caucus
in primary. I think we should have like a group
(26:21):
of states that are all next to each other, the
Northwestern United States or the Northeastern United States, and each
election a group of say ten would be the first primary,
so the economic benefit gets spread around, and it would
save the environmental issue that the collar before mentioned, which
I agree with that all these people flying around everywhere,
(26:41):
back and forth, back and forth is a total waste,
and it would just be a lot fairer.
Speaker 1 (26:47):
Gavin Jackson regional primaries, This is an idea that a
lot of people are talking about. You would have basically,
it would be rotating. You'd have, you know, the South
gets to go one time and then next time around
that maybe the Northeast goes first or whatever.
Speaker 2 (27:01):
What do you think, Yeah, I think that would be fascinating.
Speaker 6 (27:04):
I mean, I think a lot of different regions do
need to get some love because they do kind of
get shunted off. Like your color from Utah is talking
about how you know, does my vote count? Of course
your vote counts because it, you know, shows that the
popular vote is still stronger for one party than the other. Now,
I grew up in Maryland, so you know, you could
say it was Sali blue. It's still somewhat is Saldi blue.
But I think when it comes down to changing how
(27:25):
primaries are done, you saw the Democrats try and do
that and New Hampshire was not happy about that because
it's in their state law. But it comes down to
the parties and if the parties want to change that,
And of course there are loyalties to different states. There
are reasons that they're in different states.
Speaker 2 (27:39):
I think for the.
Speaker 6 (27:39):
Democrats they probably should have a little bit more of
a come to Jesus about that, because that is why
South Carolina is so important, because we have such a
diverse electorate here. Even the Republicans are diverse, and when
it comes to ideological backgrounds in South Carolina, which is
why we are so good at picking the eventual nominee
and presidents here because we have a good mix of
folks here versus just Iowa and New Hampshire.
Speaker 2 (28:02):
And you know, New.
Speaker 6 (28:03):
Hampshire voters are completely different than South count voters here.
You're undeclared your independence, that's not such a factor here
in South Carolina. So you do have a little bit
of mix and match. It would be interesting to see
how a regional primary would work. But at the same time,
I think it kind of goes back to what we've
been talking about that we're kind of at the best,
the best way of the system right now. Could it
(28:23):
get better, yes, But if you switch it up entirely,
folks are going to find ways to work it to
their advantage.
Speaker 2 (28:28):
And their disadvantage as well well.
Speaker 1 (28:30):
And one wonders if Alaska would get any love in
original primary system, it would it be part of the
West fly the fly everywhere in Alaska exactly, Tolliver. We're
getting some comments in and listened to the middle dot Com.
Speaker 3 (28:42):
Yeah, Tom, and Nashville rights a thousand times. Yes, it
would be transformative if even a quarter of the country
where to follow Alaska's lead by adopting nonpartisan primaries and
ranked choice voting. Larry Wrights. In today's communication world, there
should be ranked choice voting a hand or all the
state primaries should be on the same day. Does anything
less give every legitimate voter the same voice.
Speaker 1 (29:03):
By the way, just to be clear, we did not
ask just about rank choice voting. But this is all organic.
People are coming up, Kathy Gesel. People love ranked choice voting.
It seems like in the middle audience that's great.
Speaker 7 (29:16):
And you know a lot of people put the people
that push back on it say it's two complicated voters
won't understand it.
Speaker 5 (29:22):
That is not true. We found that was not the
case in Alaska.
Speaker 7 (29:26):
In fact, we did a lot of a lot of
events at state fairs and things like that. Children would
come up and rank the jellyban flavors, showing their parents
how to do it.
Speaker 1 (29:37):
Tulliver. Notching key victories in the caucuses and primaries is
often seen as a roadmap to the nomination and ultimately
to the president's.
Speaker 3 (29:44):
Absolutely, but that's not always the case. Take a listen
to Walter Kronkite in the CBS News report about the
nineteen eighty Iowa Caucuses.
Speaker 8 (29:51):
It looks like a smashing victory for President Carter rover
Senator Kennedy tonight in the Iowa caucuses. And on the
Republican side, George Bush apparently he has done what he
hoped to do coming out of the pack. Guys, the
principal challenger at the front runner, Ronald Reagan. Tonight, I
look at the results and what they mean as CAMPAIGNADI
gets off to an exciting beginning. It looks like a
(30:12):
smashing victory for President Carter over Senator Kennedy tonight in
the Iowa caucuses, and on the Republican side, George Bush
apparently has done what he hoped to do coming out
of the pack. Guys, the principal challenger at the front runner,
Ronald Reagan. Tonight, I look at the results and what
they mean as CAMPAIGNADI gets off to an exciting beginning.
Speaker 3 (30:33):
George H. W. Bush may have edged out Reagan and
the Iowa caucuses, but the Republican nomination ultimately went to
the former California governor.
Speaker 1 (30:40):
Right nineteen eighty and we'll be back with more of
your calls on the middle. This is the Middle on
Jeremy Hobson. If you're just joining us, we're asking if
you think it's time we change the way we nominate
our presidential candidates. Why do base voters in states like Iowa,
New Hampshire and South Carolina have so much power? Call
us at eight four four four Middle. That's eight four
(31:01):
four four six four three three five three, or you
can reach out at Listen to the Middle dot com.
I'm joined by Gavin Jackson, host and reporter at South
Carolina Public Radio, and Kathy Giesel, majority leader of the
Alaska Senate Bipartisan Coalition. A lot of calls on the line,
So let's go to Dye in Columbia, South Carolina. Edie,
Welcome to the Middle.
Speaker 11 (31:20):
Go ahead, Thank you so much.
Speaker 16 (31:24):
First of all, I'll say that Gavin's taking quite a
few of the points that I was going to make,
but a couple, you know, I do want to emphasize
first to several folks who talked about money and campaigns
and how it's you know, just assess, you know, way to.
Speaker 17 (31:43):
Just overboard.
Speaker 9 (31:46):
Folks forget that.
Speaker 16 (31:46):
The reason their money, money and campaigns is the purpose
of that is for candidates to be able to communicate
their message with voters because generally voters are not going
to go out of their way or or you know,
break their normal routine to find.
Speaker 12 (32:03):
Out much about the voters.
Speaker 16 (32:04):
So often, you know there are people who would even
forget to vote. So that is the purpose of money
and campaigns for for communication. And two, I'd like to
say South Carolina, New Hampshire, and Iowa they are great
primary states because of Gavin mentioned, they're smaller, but diverse
in each in in every way, South Carolina more so
(32:26):
than than the others. But that's important because candidates have
to actually interact with individuals. It's this year, it's different.
Speaker 1 (32:39):
Have you met any of the candidates this year?
Speaker 16 (32:42):
I've met almost all of them, okay, all right, with
the exception of of of Donald Trump. I've been those rallies,
but I have not personally met him. But I've shaken
the hands of almost every single one. So I would say,
and that's that one of all. The former chairman used
to say that any South Carolina, They're not going to
(33:02):
vote for you unless they shake your hand at least
three times.
Speaker 1 (33:04):
Right right, right, well, Edie, thank you so much for
that call. Gavin Jackson, a supporter of yours, also Eaty
and such.
Speaker 6 (33:12):
Yeah, and I think I know that which Eatie that
is calling. It's such a small state people that call
your national show. But it's good hearing from Edie. But
also I think it's interesting to note that because we
are in this post Trump political world right where you
were supposed to have to go and shake everyone's hand,
but he has proven that if you were powerful enough,
if you were popular enough, it doesn't matter. You don't
(33:32):
have to go see him. He made his first rally
here in South Carolina. South Carolina this year just what
I think, two weeks ago, for the first time since September.
It was his first rally since September. And it just
goes to show that he didn't need to campaign here.
And he's only going to have another rally on Friday afternoon,
and that'll be his third appearance in the state. And
(33:52):
he doesn't need to do much more than that because
he's trying out the people. They still support him, you know,
come whatever, They're going to support Donald Trump. And that's
just goes to his popularity. But I think going back
to normal times, I guess in normal quotation marks, when
you're having to go knock on doors, you're having to
go talk to people. It does make a difference going
and doing that, and you do anybody. I mean, you
see these events they take money to put on. They
(34:15):
take money to make signs and your signs and those
kinds of things. So and to support staff to get
the organization to get a message out. So it's not
just all negative ads and mailers, but there's a lot
more behind it too.
Speaker 1 (34:25):
Let's go to Kathy, who's in Tampa, Florida. Kathy, what
do you think?
Speaker 9 (34:32):
First?
Speaker 13 (34:32):
Late, thank you for taking my call, of course, and
I want to say I'm kind of changing a little
bit of what I wanted to say. But my first
point when I spoke to you earlier, I spoke to
a colleague.
Speaker 16 (34:46):
Earlier, was that.
Speaker 13 (34:50):
I think that that the voter needs to have more
stay in the primary elections than if that's through ranked
you know, rank choice blowing or whatever that needs to happen,
because I think we're in a situation right now where
many many Americans are not happy with either candidates, but
(35:14):
yet the parties themselves are pretty much forcing those candidates
on us. In my situation, it's pretty extreme. I live
in Florida, and the Executive Committee of the Democratic the
Florida Democratic Party a number of months ago decided that
(35:38):
they would support Joe Biden no matter what, and that
we would not have a Democratic current primary in this state.
And I believe that I was just enfranchised. I supported
Joe Biden in twenty twenty, but I no longer support him,
(36:00):
and I know many other people are very unhappy with
the thought of him having a second term.
Speaker 1 (36:08):
Kathy, thank you, thank you for that call. I mean,
let's go to Kathy Giesel on that on what Kathy
was saying there.
Speaker 7 (36:16):
Yeah, Jeremy, I totally agree with Kathy. You know, when
we narrow it down to just two candidates, that's that's
totally limiting. And she pointed out she was disenfranchised because
a party took control.
Speaker 5 (36:30):
That's the beauty of having an open primary.
Speaker 7 (36:33):
With four or five some states, some states early in five,
but having four or five go forward from the primary
into the general, so that the electorate has more than
just two choices, and they have multiple choices in ranking
as well.
Speaker 5 (36:51):
You can actually hear the voter's voice.
Speaker 1 (36:53):
Then well, and Gavin Jackson, she brought up the fact
that most Americans, and in fact, in the polls, most
Americans don't want the two candidates that look likely to
be on the ticket this time around, exactly.
Speaker 6 (37:06):
Yeah, and that goes back to primary voters versus general
election voters and the motivated, passionate primary voter who was
going to go out and vote either early in South
Carolina or on a Saturday in South Carolina and vote.
But to the point where we're talking about, you know,
being disenfranchised, I don't think that's entirely what happens when
you have an incumbent leader of your party who's in
(37:28):
office running again, like Joe Biden, or like we said,
Donald Trump or you know, Barack Obama in the past,
that we didn't have those primaries because it's a foregone conclusion.
Speaker 2 (37:36):
It costs money to put on primaries. We're talking about
money to put.
Speaker 6 (37:39):
On a primary, a perfunctory primary when you have an incumbent.
You know, that's kind of a waste in some sense.
Speaker 1 (37:45):
When they're run by the parties, and the parties really
have no interest in having a contested election because it
might hurt the candidate who ends up being there at
the end.
Speaker 6 (37:54):
Yeah, the state still puts on our primaries too, So
it's like, you know, ninety six percent of voters voted
for Joe Biden on February third. You know, Dean Phillips
didn't even get two percent here, Mary Williamson did get
two percent. The voices were heard. I mean you saw
it in New Hampshire. Two people wrote in Joe Biden.
He wasn't able to ballot there. So it's different when
it's incumbents. And I get what you're saying, but you know,
(38:16):
wait for twenty twenty eight because it's gonna be wide
open on both sides.
Speaker 1 (38:18):
Right, let's go to Kevin, who's in Kansas City. Kevin,
welcome to the middle.
Speaker 17 (38:24):
What do you think, Hey, thanks for taking my call.
I think that they should reverse everything and go back
to simple. You have two months or three months to
have where you can compat campaign and then you're done.
You're done campaigning, whether it's social media, on TV, radio,
(38:47):
all of that, because it's that media and all of that.
I should say negative campaigning that goes on that really
ruins it for everybody because I get sick tired of it.
After the right after whether Trump got elected or Biden
got elected, the next day it was, hey, he's already running.
(39:09):
He's doing a campaign. I'm tired of that. I want
them to go back to I want I'd like it
to be really simple. You got two, three, four, maybe
four months done and then everybody's got to make their
choice and let everybody be on the ballot.
Speaker 1 (39:23):
And you're in Kansas City, so you get the ads
from both Missouri and Kansas.
Speaker 17 (39:30):
Well, I'm not even from Kansas City. I just happened
to be living here. I'm not from Kansas City. I'm
originally from Hawaii and so but the thing is, though,
it's just too much, too much money spent and wasted
on stuff that could be used for something far more
useful to to, you know, help the country. We're wasting
(39:53):
it on it.
Speaker 1 (39:54):
We're wasting Sorry, Kevin, thank you so much for that,
called Kathy Giesel. A shorter campaign is what Kevin is
calling for.
Speaker 7 (40:01):
Well, yeah, but that means that the voters have to
be engaged early on. But Kevin also made the point
about negative campaigning, and that's one thing that this actually changes.
Speaker 5 (40:13):
In rank choice voting. You even the.
Speaker 7 (40:16):
Party I'm a Republican, even that hardcore Democrat, I need
to be able to appeal to him and listen to
his voice and ask for the second place vote from him.
Speaker 5 (40:29):
You have to.
Speaker 7 (40:31):
It really does damper down the negative campaigning because you
have to find middle ground with everyone.
Speaker 1 (40:39):
Let's go to Rocky in Birmingham, Alabama. Hi, Rocky, welcome
to the middle Hey, how you doing doing well?
Speaker 2 (40:47):
What do you say?
Speaker 10 (40:48):
What do you think?
Speaker 18 (40:51):
So I kind of have a differing opinion than I
guess everybody else. I like the ranked choice voting and
what would stand for, but I would rather see complete
down ballots where nobody's party is listed. You know, if
you're here to support the country, you should be able
(41:11):
to reach both Republican and Democrats where they are. And I,
as a voter, should be able to decide which Democrat
and which Republican is best for the position that we're
voting for. And I'm also a fan of midterm elections
going the rank choice voting way. And what I mean is,
(41:32):
if you have four people you've selected at the end
of that mid term, when that midterm election would start,
you simply say to the vote the elected people, Hey
we've got four people that were chosen. Of those four people,
these are the top two vote getters. If the voters
tonight decide that you, as their elected official have not
(41:56):
done your job. They're going to vote know on you,
and the second person that they voted for is going
to be the replacement for you, and that eliminates that
additional election cycle that everybody's already fussed about in the
first place.
Speaker 1 (42:11):
Rocky, thank you for that call. And Gavin, let me
ask you about one thing that Rocky brought up there,
which is like, what if you had a ballot that
didn't have the party affiliation on there?
Speaker 6 (42:20):
Yeah, I mean I think that also goes back to states,
because that's something that you can do down to the
local level when it comes to school boards, right, like
you know, they're going to make school boards partisan at
a time when we probably don't need more parsonship, right,
don't need to know who's a Republican Democrat. You just
want to who's for kids, for example. So that's state politics.
That's why people should really be following what's going on
in their state house, like Senator Giesold and others in
(42:42):
the podcast that I host.
Speaker 2 (42:43):
But I want to go back to what the other call.
Speaker 6 (42:45):
We're talking about money and doing this sort of shorter sprint, right,
short campaign cycle, because then again kind of goes back
to what we're talking about, where money becomes even a
bigger factor because you have to have money to do
a short campaign in a country with three hundred and
some million people out of European country where it's this big,
and you can do a snap election or whatever. I
don't even know how that works, but it works for them,
I guess. But we have all these states and you
(43:07):
want to talk about being disenfranchised.
Speaker 2 (43:09):
No one's going to come to Hawaii, Organsas.
Speaker 6 (43:12):
They're going to go to California, They're going to go
to Chicago, They're going to go to New York and
bank on those folks to turn out, because then, you know,
do we even have you know, e electoral college if
we do that process.
Speaker 2 (43:22):
There's so many factors at play.
Speaker 6 (43:23):
And yes, I think people are really expressing their concern
and they're tired of this process, and hopefully there's some
room for reform because people are looking for something. But
to do a wholesale change like that would really just
up end things and again, like I said, would make
there be some advantages, but there also be a lot
of disadvantages and a lot of side effects that we.
Speaker 2 (43:41):
Don't know about well.
Speaker 1 (43:42):
And by the way you mentioned, we have I think
three hundred and thirty million people in the country. Now,
we said, we've been doing this system with Iowa going first,
and for the most partsin's like nineteen seventy two. At
that point there were less than two hundred million people
in the United States. So think about that. We've expanded
so much and we're still using pretty much the same
system them. Let's go to Mike, who's in Belleville, Illinois. Mike,
(44:04):
Welcome to the Middle What do.
Speaker 19 (44:05):
You think, Hi, thanks for taking my call. I think
the ring file system is a great, you know, idea,
and I would like to try to explore that. But
I'd be more interested in interested in just widening the
pool because, like you know, when the founding fathers were,
you know, crafting all their documents and all these important
(44:28):
decisions that are being felt, you know, centuries later, we're
being crafted like those guys were the best and the brightest,
at least the best and the brightest out of the
people that were entitled enough to have voices, right, And
I would just like to see like something more on
the lines of having representatives come from all fifty states
(44:49):
and then narrowing it down from there, maybe doing a
midterm or something like that. But I would love to
see more people in the pool and just you know,
rather than just having these chosen people come from two
different positions, having a much broader field to choose from,
and if the rank and file system would would pair
(45:09):
well with that, I you know, I'd love it, But
I just don't like this that right now we're choosing
between these two dudes, Like, how did that happen?
Speaker 17 (45:19):
Mike?
Speaker 1 (45:19):
Thank you so much for that call, And I am
going to give Jim and Casper Wyoming one more chance here. Jim,
if you're there, go ahead.
Speaker 20 (45:27):
I am thank you for having me on. I think
there's two things that need to happen. The first is
we need to get corporate donations to the to the
candidates down to exactly zero. That way, the candidates are
not beholden to any any particular corporation or megacorp or whatever,
and that way they'll only beholden to the people that donate.
(45:50):
And then the other option here, I think the entire country,
every single state, needs to move to a model similar
to what Nebraska and Maine had have that distributed electoral
vote and this way, when someone is in a state
like Washington, who is dominated on the west coast by
(46:12):
Seattle and Tacoma, very very very blue. But then you
disenfranchise the people in the eastern side of the state,
which are generally red, and so those voters don't come
out because they know they're going to get their votes
can be overridden by by that major population center. Plus,
this also brings into play the smaller states like Wyoming, Montana, Idaho, Alaska, Ye,
(46:36):
because they can actually then split their votes and then
they become part of the electoral college. Right, and this
model does not violate the constitutionality of the electoral college.
Speaker 1 (46:45):
Well, let me bring that to Kathy Giesel. You know,
he's talking about states like Nebraska where you, like, you
have one congressional district that can go one way and
the rest of the state can go the other way
in the election. Just briefly your thoughts on that idea.
Speaker 7 (46:57):
You know, in Alaska it's a winner take all. But
that is it's actually a way of having a ranked
choice vote, almost, isn't it. It does allow we only
have three three electoral votes, so I'm not real experience
with states that have more than I have large numbers, right,
So I'm not sure I'm an expert on this one.
Speaker 1 (47:19):
Well, and I wonder if there would ever be a
chance where Alaska would decide that it's just going to
have one one electoral vote from the Anchorage area and
then the rest from somewhere else.
Speaker 15 (47:27):
I don't know.
Speaker 1 (47:28):
Yeah, Okay, we'll have that be the last word. We
don't have time for a quiz telegon. I'm sorry to say,
but I want to thank my guest, Gavin Jackson, host,
a reporter at South Carolina Public Radio, hosts of the
South Carolina Lead podcast. Gavin, thank you so much for
being on the Middle. Thanks and Kathy Giesel, majority leader
of the Alaska Senate Bipartisan Coalition. Wonderful to have you
on as well.
Speaker 5 (47:49):
Thank you my pleasure.
Speaker 1 (47:51):
Now next week, Tolliver, we are back on the road,
broadcasting live from kue R in Salt Lake City with
a single guest, the Governor of Utah, Spencer Cox, who
is a publican who's chair of the National Government Association,
and his key issue is getting people to disagree without
demonizing each other. Isn't that nice? He will be with
us for the full hour, taking calls at eight four
(48:13):
four four, Middle.
Speaker 3 (48:14):
And By the way, make sure to sign up for
our free weekly newsletter at Listen to the Middle dot com.
Speaker 1 (48:18):
The Middle is brought to you by Long Nook Media,
distributed by Illinois Public Media in Urbana, Illinois, and produced
by Joanne Jennings, Harrison Patino, John Barth, and Danny Alexander.
Our technical director is Jason Croft. Our theme music was
composed by Andrew Haig. Thanks to Nashville Public Radio, iHeartMedia,
and the more than four hundred public radio stations that
(48:39):
are making it possible for people across the country to
Listen to the Middle again. Salt Lake City next week
with the Governor of Utah eight four four four Middle
with your questions and comments. I'm Jeremy Hobson. I'll talk
to you next week.
Speaker 16 (49:04):
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