January 26, 2024 • 51 mins
On the latest episode of The Middle, we'll be asking you: Are you in favor of using public dollars for families to send their children to a school of their choice - including private options? Jeremy is joined by Doug Harris, director of the National Center for Research on Education Access and Choice at Tulane University and Robin Lake, director of The Center on Reinventing Public Education at Arizona State University. The Middle's house DJ Tolliver joins as well, plus callers from around the country.
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Episode Transcript
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Speaker 1 (00:00):
Hey, Tolliver. Hey, hey, we have an announcement because you know,
I keep calling you the DJ, but for our podcast listeners,
they don't know why I say that, because we have
to strip all the music out because we don't have
the rights to play it on the podcast, but we
do have the rights to play it on the broadcast.
Right Yeah, So here's the good news this episode, they
(00:21):
will hear you in your full DJ nois because we
have gotten special permission from Basin Street Records. I'm in
New Orleans, that's where they're based. We have gotten special
permission from Basin Street Records to play the music in
the podcast. So incredible podcast listeners, stand by for maybe
the best middle you've ever heard.
Speaker 2 (00:39):
The best DJ of your life.
Speaker 1 (00:41):
Come on, Welcome to the Middle. I'm Jeremy Hobson at
Station WWNO in New Orleans this week, and as always,
Tolliver is here. Hi Tolliver, Hey Jeremy.
Speaker 2 (00:56):
Before you jump into this week's topic, we have some
new listeners.
Speaker 1 (00:59):
We do have some new listeners.
Speaker 2 (01:00):
Yes, welcome to the listeners of Vermont Public all across
the state of Vermont.
Speaker 1 (01:04):
Which also means into the Montreal, Canada area. So bimvenue
to the listeners there. Taliver, you know, when I first
told our friends here at WWNO that we wanted to
do a live show from New Orleans, they said, get
in line, But then they said, you have to talk
about education in school choice. It is a huge issue,
not just here in Louisiana but all over the country.
Coming out of the COVID pandemic, parents were frustrated with
(01:28):
their kids public schools, and lawmakers across the country, particularly Republicans,
have been passing laws to allow families to use public
funds to send their kids to private schools or in
some cases pay expenses related to homeschooling. Just last year,
ten states did that. So this hour we're asking, are
you in favor of allowing public dollars to be used
(01:49):
for families to send their kids to a school of
their choice, including private options. Taliver, can you give our
listeners the number please?
Speaker 2 (01:57):
Yes, it's eight four four four Middle that's eight four
four or four six four three three five three. You
can also email us by going to listen to the
Middle dot com.
Speaker 1 (02:05):
And before we get to your calls, I'm here with
Aubrey Uhas, whose education reporter for WWNO Aubrey. Here in
New Orleans, nearly all students in the public education system
are in charter schools. It's the only city in America
with an all charter system. Can you first just remind
us what a charter school is and why is it
all charter here in New Orleans.
Speaker 3 (02:25):
Charter schools are public schools. They just aren't run by
a local school board. At the end of the day,
the local school board has power over them, but they're
run by charter operators, independent management companies that get public
funds that they can then spend, so they sometimes have
a private school feel, but they are public schools at
the end of the day. And the reason why we
have this totally unique system is because of Hurricane Katrina.
(02:48):
We had a couple of charter schools before the storm.
It was maybe starting to move in that direction, but
it really takes a huge disaster and a disruption for
something radical like this to happen. It was something that
state official wanted and eventually they kind of hands it
all of the schools over to charter operators. Now the
city has control of its schools, is something they've decided
to keep in place.
Speaker 1 (03:08):
Now the legislators in Baton Rouge today want to go
even further and statewide offer people to have education savings
accounts that have been enacted in other states.
Speaker 3 (03:19):
What are they proposing, right, I mean, they're looking at
states like Florida and Arizona that have universal education savings accounts,
meaning that anyone can.
Speaker 1 (03:28):
Have access, not just low income people, right.
Speaker 3 (03:30):
Right, And that's what kind of makes them more radical
than some of the other choice policies we have. We
have things like scholarships and tax credits in Louisiana currently,
but they're very limited. You know, it has to be
specific circumstance as a kid who has a special you know,
exceptionality and can't be served in traditional school, or a
family that meets certain economic requirements. But these would be
(03:51):
very very broad programs that could potentially allow a lot
of people to exit the public school system. And they're
really advocating for this because they believe in what they
describe as parent rights, this ability to kind of decide
for yourself whether or not you think the public school
is meeting your child needs, your family's needs, and if
that's not the case, then exit that system. And in
(04:12):
this case, lawmakers are wanting people to be able to
take public dollars with them.
Speaker 1 (04:15):
And the former governor was a Democrat, John Bell Edwards,
who blocked this kind of thing. Correct, But now the
state has a new Republican governor, Jeff Landry, who wants this.
So is it a done deal.
Speaker 3 (04:27):
Possibly. It really depends on if lawmakers want to prioritize
it in the session. If they do, we don't expect
Landry to veto it like John Bell Edwards did. The
real question is whether they'll go for a universal policy
or something more narrow.
Speaker 1 (04:40):
To start that is Aubrey you haas here at WWNO.
She covers education. Aubrey, thank you, my pleasure. So now
let's introduce our panel. Guest here in the studio with
me in New Orleans is Doug Harris, director of the
National Center for Research on Education, Access and Choice at
Tulane University, where he also teaches economics, and he is
the author of the book Charter City. Doug Harris, Welcome,
(05:01):
thanks for having me and joining us from Seattle is
Robin Lake, director of the Center on Reinventing Public Education
at Arizona State University. Robin Lake, welcome to you.
Speaker 4 (05:10):
Thanks Jeremy and before.
Speaker 1 (05:12):
We get to the phones, Doug Harris, there is definitely
somewhat of a revolution going on right now on this issue.
Lots of states adding or trying to add an option
for parents who don't want their kids in public schools
to use these public funds to help them go to
private or homeschool. Is this the biggest move towards so
called school choice that you've seen in the decades you've
(05:32):
been following this issue. Yes and no.
Speaker 5 (05:35):
No, in the sense that we've had school choice for
a long time, using those terms charter schools, choice amongst
traditional public schools, homeschooling more than a third of students
even before the recent voucher proposals came through, we're already
attending a school other than their neighborhood public schools. So
choice has already been happening. What's different here is the
shift towards vouchers and towards private schools, religious schools. And
(05:58):
I do think in that respect not even just the
biggest shift in school choice, it's actually the biggest change
in education policy I can think of, going back many decades.
Speaker 1 (06:06):
And Robin Lake, how much do you think that is
because of COVID and all the closures and parents maybe
being dissatisfied with their public schools.
Speaker 4 (06:14):
COVID pushed a lot of people to do things differently
out of desperation and happiness with virtual schooling or other reasons,
you know. But I think it's important to recognize that
the issues that families were expressing during COVID existed before
COVID as well, sort of, you know, just the inability
to find a good fit for their kid. It just
(06:35):
came to a you know, a breaking point, I guess
in COVID.
Speaker 1 (06:41):
Doug Harris, what do we know about the effectiveness? Do
we see better outcomes when students move out of struggling
public schools and into other schools? Actually?
Speaker 5 (06:49):
No, So there are four states where smaller programs have
been put in place, and then they and we've been
able to study what happens when students move from traditional
public schools to private schools using these vouchers, and academically
they actually tend to do worse, and pretty consistently across
states do worse on test scores, for example, is the
main metric that we have. How it works with universal
(07:12):
programs is going to be different because now you're opening
it up to a much broader audience. And these ones
that we've studied more recently, and these are very new.
These universal programs have really only been around for a
few years, so we don't know a lot about those.
But the others, the more targeted ones, the results have
not been positive.
Speaker 1 (07:26):
Just to clarify, when you say universal, you're talking about
that it is open to people of all incomes. It's
exact to people at a certain income level. Robin Lake,
A lot of your research is focused on charter schools.
Are students at charter schools have you seen are they
getting better educated than their peers at the local public schools.
Speaker 4 (07:44):
Yeah, if you look at the national picture, the outcomes
are a little bit better in charter schools. But charter
schools aren't a national policy, they're state policies, and so
you really have to get underneath the hood a little
bit to understand how variation plays out in different states.
Policy really matters when it comes to any kind of
(08:04):
choice policy, and that's true with charter schools as well.
So we see a number of states that are getting
much better outcomes for kids with their charter school policies.
In many cases, low income black and Hispanic students tend
to do better in charter schools. But yeah, and you
know it really depends on the design. Choice isn't magic.
(08:27):
You really have to figure out how to get it right.
Speaker 1 (08:29):
Let's go to the phones. Denny is with us from Gladstone, Missouri. Denny,
welcome to the middle. Go ahead, Hi, Denny, Yeah.
Speaker 6 (08:40):
Go ahead, Yeah this is Denny.
Speaker 1 (08:44):
Yeah, go ahead, Denny. Tell us what you think.
Speaker 6 (08:48):
Oh, I appreciate it. Man, Hey, A lot going on.
I actually taught twenty five years urving Kansas City. A
lot of ways to go. First of all, to start
off private, I don't think so unless the school district
is unaccredited, or let's say their activities are very very weak,
(09:10):
then maybe sum should be set up. But I love
the charters. They're competitive. They make the other districts pick
up their games. This KIP Academy down in Kansas City,
which is actually throughout the country. They're doing a wonderful job.
(09:32):
The what I like is what Kansas has done open borders.
If you go to any district you want in Kansas,
you just got to get your transportation all right.
Speaker 1 (09:43):
Well, so so you're you're you're in favor. Let me,
let me just take your thoughts to the panel here,
Robin Lake, somebody who thinks that the charter schools actually
bring up the quality of the public schools.
Speaker 4 (09:54):
Yeah, I mean, it's great to hear that that he's
having a good experience with the KIP schools. KIP is
a national network of charter schools that's had pretty extraordinary
results over the years, and so it's a great example
of what's possible within the charter space. And I think
what Denny's also referring to is that there's a really
broad spectrum of choice that states can say to districts,
(10:19):
you know, let's have a lot of choice within the
district across districts. Charters and districts might collaborate and you
might have some private school options as well. So there
are a number of states that have the whole spectrum
of opportunity, and when it comes down to it, most
people do choose. Actually, I think about fifty percent of
(10:39):
families across the country are making some kind of choice
across those public and private options when it comes down
to it. So, yeah, it's it's a lot of different
options out there, just a question of figuring out how
to make it work and really with a spin on equity,
just making sure that it's reaching the kids who need
it most.
Speaker 1 (11:00):
Tolliver. As we mentioned, last year was a really big
year for proponents of school choice, but the idea actually
goes back to the nineteen fifties.
Speaker 2 (11:07):
Yeah, actually a year after the US Supreme Court ruled
to desegregate schools. In nineteen fifty four, an economist at
the University of Chicago who's well known to anyone who's
taken an intro to e concourse, Milton Friedman, introduced the
concept of private school vouchers.
Speaker 7 (11:20):
In my opinion, there is not a single thing you
could do in this world that would do more to
improve the condition of the black people who are in
the lowest income classes, of the black people who have
been most affected by discrimination. There is not anything that
you could do that would be more effective in the
(11:40):
voucher scheme.
Speaker 1 (11:42):
Doug Harris, what has been the effect of school choice
on segregation? Has this helped in terms of racial equality
in schools? Or has it pulled richer, perhaps wider kids
out of the public schools and made the public schools
more segregated.
Speaker 5 (11:55):
Actually, the traditional public schools honestly are presegregated to start with.
So when you introduced about your program, and it doesn't
seem to change things very much. They're pretty segregated. Now
you introduced about your program, they remain pretty segregated. So
that I think the more important aspect of this equity
question is more about outcomes, right, So how do students
(12:16):
actually do? And again, if we look at these state
wide voucher programs that I was talking about earlier in
the in four states where we've been able to study them,
it doesn't seem to work out that way. Not the
way charters. Charter schools have been more effective in serving
those students, vouchers haven't standby.
Speaker 1 (12:31):
I want to remind our listeners that The Middle is
also available as a podcast in partnership with iHeart Podcasts
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and Tolliver. What are we listening to here?
Speaker 2 (12:43):
Well, since we're broadcasting from New Orleans this week, we've
got some tunes from Basin Street Records. This is Kermit
Ruffins with drop Me Off in New Orleans. He started
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(13:03):
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Speaker 8 (13:07):
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Speaker 1 (13:43):
This is the Middle. I'm Jeremy Hobson. If you're just tuning,
in the Middle is a national calling show. We are
focused on elevating voices from the middle geographically, politically, and philosophically.
Or maybe you just want to meet in the middle.
This hour, we're in New Orleans and we're talking about
school choice. What do you think of pro that use
public funds to send kids to private school or to
(14:03):
be homeschooled. Do you live in a state that offers
education savings accounts? How has it worked out for you? Tolliver?
How can people reach us?
Speaker 2 (14:10):
You can call us at eight four four four Middle.
That's eight four four four six four three three five three.
You can also write to us at Listen to the
Middle dot com. You'll find our social media accounts there too.
Speaker 1 (14:21):
Joining us Doug Harris, director of the National Center for
Research on Education, Access and Choice at Tulane University, and
Robin Lake, director of the Center on Reinventing Public Education
at Arizona State University. And a lot of calls coming in,
so let's get to them. Gabriel is right here in
New Orleans, Louisiana. Gabriel, welcome to the middle.
Speaker 9 (14:41):
Go ahead, Hi, thank you. I have to have three
reasons that I'm not for it in a wide open
general sense. Number one, I think this is just a
it could be a subsidy just for rich people to
send their their kids who already sending their kids to
(15:02):
private school, just to get ten thousand dollars or so
off their bill. Second of all, it'll be taking money
away from a public schools system that you know, the
government isn't nimble, So if you have large percentages of
their students disappearing, these these school systems have fixed unavoidable costs.
(15:24):
So you know, if you have you know, you have
to pay your light bill, you have to do maintenance,
if you and if the money is following the student
and you lose half your students, that means you can't
pay your light bill, your electric bill. There's there's basic
things that need that have to happen. And the third thing,
I think, just like COVID stimulus or you know, I'm
(15:48):
in New Orleans. We you know, we had lots of
experience with well after Hurricane Katrina, right, you know, there
was something called the own program, and so both rode
Home and COVID unless you had you know, entrepreneurs were
really just fraudsters who came in set up these so
many businesses and you know, ran away with government money.
(16:10):
And I just have a feeling that's what's going to
happen here.
Speaker 1 (16:13):
Yeah, So so thank you so much, Gabriel for that.
Lots lots of stuff there to talk about. Doug Harris,
accountability and just the idea that in a universal situation
where anybody of any income can have a voucher and
take it and take their kid out of public school
into private school, you could just have a wealthy family
that is already sending their kid to private school, just
(16:34):
taking more money out of the public school system that
they were spending.
Speaker 5 (16:36):
Anyway, that's already happening, and it's you know, basically what's
happened is when of these programs get put in place,
who's who can use them. They're people who are already
in private schools, And so the vast majority of the
money is going to hire income families at the stage.
What's interesting is what happens next. So do we see
more families from from lower and middle incomes also kind
(16:58):
of joining them, and do we see more private schools
opening up to try to attract them. So I think
that's why I said earlier it's a really revolutionary change,
is partly because in the long term you could really
see a substantial shift in even the kinds of schools
that exist.
Speaker 1 (17:14):
Let's go to RJ in Laramie, Wyoming. RJ. Welcome to
the middle. Go ahead.
Speaker 4 (17:21):
Yeah.
Speaker 10 (17:21):
You know, when we talk about the school choice, I
am a proponent of the school choice and vouchers and
money following the students. However, we've got to keep in
mind that wherever the federal moneies go, whether it's to
a private institution, whether it's a charter, whether it's home school,
(17:45):
those federal moneies come with stipulations. They come with regulations.
So in other words, what we're going to do here
and what's already been happening is the umbrella of public
schools is just going to become larger, and there's going
to be more underneath that umbrella. Because the public schools,
(18:06):
and I think I miss quote, the public school umbrella
is just going to get larger. Those public schools have
to keep track of where these students are. So they
have to have the personnel, the apparatus, and the funding
to track where their community students go. So when people
want to have the idea that hey, I'm getting out
(18:27):
of the public school because I am you know, I
disillusioned with what's going on, but I want that federal money,
well that federal money comes with.
Speaker 6 (18:41):
Tracks.
Speaker 1 (18:42):
So so Robin Lake, what about that and the issue
of accountability. How do we make sure that in these
situations you're able to keep track and make sure that
people aren't spending the money on a new jet ski
or something like that.
Speaker 4 (18:55):
Right, Like the public dollars, most of them are coming
from the state, federal money as well, and for any
of these programs, there has to be basic accountability for
how things are being spent. With charter schools, which are
public schools, there are a lot of regulations around that.
There's there are a lot of oversight. In some ways,
charter schools are more accountable for their dollars in outcomes
(19:18):
than traditional public schools because of all that built in
accountability now doesn't always play out perfectly. But with the
private school scholarships, it's a different story. Most of them
will require quite a bit of regulation in terms of
the parents have to go to the state and say
this is what I'd like to spend my money on,
and the state has to approve it, so they're tracking
(19:40):
all of that. But there have been instances of money
being spent by parents on things that were approved by
the state that people might say, you know, we're not
a legitimate use of public dollars. Trampolines or music lessons. Yeah,
and these have happened. Now, the dollars involved in these
kinds of things are so small compared to the broader
(20:02):
plot of expenditures in public education, but it's it's real
ultimately for me, you know, the basic spending regulation has
to occur, but accountability for outcomes is what matters the
most to me. And we have to look at these
choice programs and I think we have to look at
public dollars in public education overall. With the COVID spend.
Speaker 1 (20:26):
Let's get to another call. Heather is in Louisiana near
Baton Rouge. Heather, welcome to the middle. What do you
think about public money going into some cases private schools.
Speaker 11 (20:39):
First of all, I am driving, so I do apologize
if I don't come through. Clearly is what I do
for a living, No problem, I am against it. I live,
grew up in a rural area in Louisiana, and I
myself was a private student up until eleventh grade. My
(21:05):
children attended a charter school because again rural area and
there were no public schools available at their grade level.
That being said, I worry about accountability. Another caller had
brought up, you know these little pop up vendors that
happened after Kurricane Katrina that took the money and run,
(21:27):
you know, and took off with it. I don't think
that my state has enough resources to be able to
make sure that these kids don't fall through the cracks.
We already have an overwhelmed Yeah.
Speaker 1 (21:46):
Yeah, well, let me let me take that to Doug Harris,
and Doug, you know the idea of what what Heather
just said there about the state not having the resources
to make sure that this is working. What about testing
and things like that? Do you when the students go
to these to a Catholic school or a private school
or even a charter school, does the state know how
(22:06):
well they're doing for private schools. No.
Speaker 5 (22:09):
In fact, that's one of the main goals I think
for proponents of the policy is to have the government
as uninvolved as possible, so to have no testing, certainly
no testing that would be comparable to anything.
Speaker 1 (22:20):
And why did they want the government as uninvolved as politics?
Because they don't like government generally or.
Speaker 5 (22:25):
Yeah, I think a lot of it's that, and also
the ability to teach religion and teach things that we
would normally put under the separation of church and state
that they want to They don't want to do that anymore.
They want to be able to teach what they want
and to still have a government pay for it. But
have the government stop at that point and say, Okay,
we're just going to give you the money and you
can decide, and we can let parents decide what's an
(22:48):
appropriate education. So I think Robin alluded to this earlier
too about how the accountability in charter schools. That's one
of the reasons why they've been successful academically. You're not
going to have that with vouchers, and it's likely one
of the reasons why they haven't worked in the states
that have tried it.
Speaker 1 (23:05):
Already, Tolliver a huge number of calls coming in, but
also people reaching out to us online.
Speaker 2 (23:11):
Absolutely, Jane writes, if parents can redirect their school taxes
to a private school for their children, then certainly people
who do not have children do not have to pay
school taxes. Correct or can taxpayers without children redirect their
taxes to any child they would like to send a
private school? Make this all make sense?
Speaker 1 (23:26):
Please, Rovin Lake? What about people who don't have kids?
Should they get to take the money and spend it
on whatever they want?
Speaker 4 (23:33):
The purpose of public education is to educate kids, so
I think it's appropriate that money be directed that way.
Like this is. You know, most people do understand it
is a public good. It has a public purpose, and
there's a variety of different experiments going on to see
how to achieve that purpose. Some of them make us uncomfortable,
(23:53):
but certainly we have to keep our eye on the
prize that there is a public policy goal here.
Speaker 1 (23:59):
You know, we don't offer and get calls from people
who have the same name as me, Jeremy, but we
do have one right now. You know, there aren't that many.
I mean, Jeremy Allen White now with the bear. He's
very famous, but there aren't that many Jeremys out there.
We have a Jeremy in the Twin Cities. Jeremy, welcome
to the middle. I want to hear from you. What
do you what do you have to say?
Speaker 12 (24:17):
Hi, thanks for taking my comments. Yeah, I've lived just
outside the Twin Cities now, but I grew up in
rural Northeast Iowa, went to public school and in my opinion,
received an excellent education. So it really bothers me now
seeing these decisions being made to send taxpayer money to
(24:40):
private and sometimes private religious schools, when this money can
be going towards these public schools that are doing an
excellent job if they are provided the proper funding, which
it just seems like so many of the politicians these
days just refuse to do, and they use use evidence
(25:05):
of poor performance as the means for not funding these
schools when it's that exact thing that is causing these
schools to underperform.
Speaker 1 (25:17):
Jeremy grat point. Yeah, let me take that to Doug Harris.
I'm also the child of public schools. I had a
public school education K twelve. Why isn't there the same
movement as there is to take this money and put
it into in some cases private schools, to just make
the public schools better with, you know, to just beef
(25:38):
up the public schools and say we've got a great system.
In many, many, many communities. Ninety percent of Americans K
twelve go to public schools.
Speaker 5 (25:44):
Still, Yeah, I went to public schools as well, But
I think there are cases where the public schools do
not serve children well. And I think that's part of
the impetus and why there's actually fairly broad support for
having some sort of alternatives and giving parents some choices.
And I think the question is what kinds of choices
should we give? What are the boundaries here? And so
(26:05):
we've talked about all the different kinds of choices that
are already out there, charter schools and open boundaries was
one of the callers talked about it, and homeschooling and
so on. So the quick question is how much and
how should the government be involved, what kind of accountability
should we have, and to the callers question how much
money should we be willing to spend on those alternative options,
(26:28):
because it is to some degree going to come out.
Speaker 1 (26:31):
Of the budgets of public schools in the long run.
Let's go to Janelle, who is calling from ann Arbor, Michigan. Janelle,
welcome to the middle What do you think.
Speaker 13 (26:42):
I want to breakfast by saying that I am a
homeschool mom. I homeschooled my children up to middle school.
But I do not think that public funds should go
for home schooling for really charter schools, although that's a
little bit more gray for me. I think I could
have used the money. Any homeschooler would acknowledge that and
(27:04):
what we could do with it. However, I think that
public education is such an important institution and piller of
our society that we need to collectively as a society
support that, even if we ourselves are choosing to seek
alternative means of education.
Speaker 1 (27:22):
So why did you Why did you decide to do
homeschooling instead of send your kids to the public schools
If you believe in public education as you say.
Speaker 13 (27:31):
So, I am not. I thought that I could do
a better job with the academics at home. I wasn't
thrilled with the academics that were happening. I'm met saying
public schools are perfect, but I think they absolutely need
to exist and we need to do and I we
still even as homeschoolers with and supported fundraising and went
to you know, events and sports events. So I'm not
(27:53):
anti public school I just thought that I could do
a better job academically.
Speaker 1 (27:58):
Janelle, thank you so much for that call. Robin Lake.
I'm sure a lot of homeschoolers out there listening to
this right now. What have you What have you found
in terms of people that decide to take the public
money for homeschooling.
Speaker 4 (28:10):
Sure, you know, I think the point it's important to ponder.
I think where I end up going with this is
I've spent a lot of time interviewing families who during
the pandemic or before the pandemic, or as Doug said,
they're really desperate for options and couldn't afford to homeschool
(28:34):
long term, ended up having to send their kids back
to the traditional public school system after the pandemic ended
because I couldn't sustain their homeschooling. I couldn't pay for it.
And so that's where I think things get complicated for
me is there are a lot of families across the
country who can afford to homeschool or send their kids
to private school, that can afford to move to a
(28:56):
different neighborhood if they need to to get what they
need for their kids. But what about the families who
can't afford that? And so that's where things get tricky
for me and make me a little bit uncomfortable. I
think should make us all a little bit uncomfortable. Is
are we willing to close down those options for others?
Speaker 1 (29:14):
Well? And in many cases, the money that you would
get from let's say a voucher or a savings account
would not be enough for a family that doesn't have
additional money to send their kid to another school. It
might just be enough to sort of subsidize somebody who
does have the means, you know, Tolliver. We said a
number of states past legislation last year in favor of
school choice, including Utah, Ohio, Florida, Arkansas, But in Kentucky,
(29:36):
Republicans have so far been unable to do it.
Speaker 2 (29:38):
Yeah, listen here to Andy Basheer, the Democratic governor of Kentucky,
who has vetoed two school choice bills already here he
is in twenty twenty one making the case against it,
that solution is.
Speaker 14 (29:49):
Not taking away more than twenty five million dollars from
public education, and what will be the most significant attack
on it and which what will signal the end public
education as we know it?
Speaker 1 (30:03):
Doug Harris, Why has this issue become so red and
blue where in many cases, in most cases, Republicans are
in favor of school choice, we're so called school choice,
and Democrats are opposed.
Speaker 5 (30:16):
So you had to break it into two parts. So
the first part is just looking at public opinion polling.
So if you look at what people support and by
political party and so on, this doesn't break down red blue.
So roughly fifty percent of Democrats support school vouchers, roughly
fifty percent of Republicans. Black voters heavily support school vouchers,
(30:39):
even though they tend to vote Democratic. It's when you
start thinking about how public opinion translates into interest group
politics and into actual policy, that's when it starts to
break down. So you've got a very well organized, very determined,
very you know, with strongly held views on the conservative right.
(31:01):
Wait evangelicals especially who really want vouchers and they vote Republican.
You've got maga voters who now I think partly coming
out of COVID and with President Trump's really strong criticisms
of public schools during the pandemic, that turned this into
a litmus test issue for Republicans. And now it's very
(31:22):
hard for Republicans nationally to win a primary anywhere without
being in favor of vouchers any essays, and so it
really changed. That's what COVID and President Trump changed in
the last few years, and that's why we have this wave.
Speaker 1 (31:36):
We've got more calls on the line, but stand by
because I want to remind our listeners. The Middle is
also available as a podcast in partnership with iHeart Podcasts
on the iHeart app or wherever you listen to podcasts.
Tolliver more New Orleans music.
Speaker 2 (31:49):
For us Absolutely this is Rebirth Brass band with Rebirth Groove.
The band is heavily featured in HBO's TREMEA one of
my favorite shows. They're Grammy winners and they're largely responsible
for the brand spanned revival of the last like four decades.
More of your Car is coming up on the Middle.
Speaker 1 (32:43):
This is the Middle I'm Jeremy Hobson. We're talking about
school choice, everything from private school vouchers to public charter
schools and education savings accounts. What do you think? Call
us at eight four four four Middle. That's eight four
four four six four three three five three. You can
also reach out to us at Listen to the Middle
dot com. Our guests this hour are Doug Harris, director
(33:03):
of the National Center for Research on Education, Access and
Choice at Tulane University, and Robin Lake, director of the
Center on Reinventing Public Education at Arizona State University. Lots
of calls coming in. Let's get to Elizabeth, who is
in Chicago, Illinois. Elizabeth, Welcome to the Middle.
Speaker 9 (33:22):
Oh hi, how are you doing great?
Speaker 1 (33:24):
Tell us what you think about public dollars going into
private schools or religious schools or charter schools and things
like that.
Speaker 15 (33:33):
Okay, I'm definitely a supporter of it. I grew up
in a rural place. I had public school. Never thought
I would send my kids to a private school. My
daughter wasnosed with dyslexia at the end of her eighth
grade year. She had no options, nowhere to go. We
finally found the only school that specializes in kids with
(33:56):
dystrophia and dyslexia and other learning disabilities, and we got
her in and at fifty thousand dollars a year, and
so she is now there. She's actually getting good grades
for the first time in years. She's confident, you know,
all these benefits. Only problem is is that she was
getting a scholarship through the Empowerment Fund through the state legislature,
(34:19):
and they voted not to continue that next year.
Speaker 9 (34:22):
So here she is.
Speaker 15 (34:24):
She we found you know this, We've writed the thinking chip,
and yet now we don't know whether she'll be able
to go back to that school next year because of dollars.
If we could, if we had school vouchers, it would
be life changing.
Speaker 4 (34:39):
Correct.
Speaker 1 (34:40):
Thank you so much for bringing that to our attention.
Elizabeth and Robin Lake. Do you find because some people
find that public school is better with dealing with learning
disabilities or learning differences, what do you find about whether
people you know are like Elizabeth and they think they've
found the spot and it's not in the public schools.
Speaker 4 (35:01):
I have a lot of sympathy for Elizabeth. I've been
in a situation like that myself, and in talking with
other families who have students with special needs or just
a complicated story. Sometimes it works and sometimes it doesn't.
And every kid's different, and it turns out that every
child is his her own unique package and it may
or may not work in the traditional system that tends
(35:21):
to be pretty one size fits all. And so you know,
that's where I come back to, we need a spectrum
of options, and we've got to stay with what's working
for kids. If Illinois program was working, why does it
shut down? If it was shut down, what other options
(35:41):
are going to be available to families like Elizabeth's. Yeah,
it's tough.
Speaker 1 (35:47):
Emma is calling us from Magnolia, Texas. Hi, Emma, go ahead,
welcome to the middle.
Speaker 16 (35:54):
Hi, hi, hi, Hi, I go ahead. Yes. So, in
regards to the public school versus vouchers, I am so
against it. I came to the United States in nineteen
eighty I was sixteen, So I went to a very
poor high school and literally across one street you cross
(36:18):
and you were into this upper middle class, white town.
And I had the experience of going one day to
that school and the difference was huge. And I've always
been very upset at the fact that, you know, now
with charter schools. Why do we want to reinvent the
(36:40):
whale and send and with charter, you know, taking money
out of the public education system and don't get into
what you would call private when you all you would
have to do is open up or improve equal, make
make the school system is equal on a poor area
(37:02):
and a rich area. My other issue is that what
I have noticed is that the chatter system caters a
lot of religious aspect. Okay, and and and you know,
I don't want to be practician or anything, but I've
(37:24):
noticed it's more of a conservative thought process. So you know,
a lot of the people that have access already to
those school systems are getting more money. And the school
the poor school systems I get in deprive of the
(37:46):
little money that they have.
Speaker 1 (37:47):
Yeah, let me take why why not invest in all
of those schools that And Doug Harris, what do you think?
Speaker 4 (37:54):
Uh?
Speaker 1 (37:55):
What about Emma's point? If you just put more money
into the public schools, then you would bring up the
ones that are doing as well.
Speaker 5 (38:01):
Money is certainly one part of the story. And I
think I think everybody would love to have the situation
where all the schools are wonderful and racial public schools
and so on, and I think it's a little unrealistic.
It's not just about money. It's about how the money,
how the money gets used, and you know what school
principle and what teachers end up in the school, and
what's happening in the community. There are a lot of
(38:23):
things that go into shaping the quality of a school,
and they're not all going to be successful in that situation.
It's some of it's about money, but a lot of
it's not. And I think the question is what do
we do in those situations where, you know, despite having
adequate financial resources, the school still doesn't seem to succeed,
or if you have some unique circumstances, like the prior
(38:43):
caller who had a very distinctive learning disability with her child,
you know what, it could be that the school actually
it is great for most students, but maybe for that
particular student doesn't fit. What do we do in those situations?
That's really what the debates about.
Speaker 1 (38:57):
You know, Robin Lake, And it sounded like your dog
might have wanted to say something thing as well to
the caller. But but you know, we've we've talked a
little bit about the the Republican and Democratic divide in
terms of politicians that are in favor or against UH
school choice. What about the people who decide to go
to these UH to these schools, who decide that they
(39:19):
don't want to be in the public school system. Is
there a partisan breakdown there that you've seen, Because we've
heard from so many people on different sides of this
this evening.
Speaker 4 (39:31):
My dog says, no, there there there really isn't you know. Families,
Families choose because there their child needs a different option,
and usually they don't care, or sometimes they don't even
know what the school is called, whether it's a charter
school or a neighborhood school or something else. That's that's
really not an issue to them. There their choices are
(39:55):
very popular with parents across the board, Democrat, Republican, and yeah,
it really doesn't play out. It's also true, interestingly, the
people who start these schools tend to be pretty liberal.
Even though schools and toys are sort of known for
being kind of a more of a conservative movement. The
(40:15):
folks who start them wanted wanted to create better options
for kids who don't have them, So yeah, it really
it crosses party lines. The politicians like to make it
partisan if they can. But ultimately what matters is, you know,
is that is the child that are off.
Speaker 1 (40:33):
Let's go to Thomas, who is in Las Vegas, Nevada. Thomas.
Welcome to the middle. Hi, how are you doing great?
Go ahead, Mike.
Speaker 17 (40:44):
I have a two kids that are currently in charter
schools in in Las Vegas, and uh, the schools that
they're zoned for are poor performing. The schools they go
to now are just better performing schools. They test better.
So I just want my kids the opportunity to go
(41:06):
to a better performing school and just the schools are
zone floor just aren't.
Speaker 15 (41:12):
Up to it.
Speaker 1 (41:13):
Okay, So in favor of charter schools, and let's go
to Lydia in Lakeland, Florida, Lydia. What do you think?
Go ahead?
Speaker 9 (41:23):
Hello.
Speaker 18 (41:24):
So I was calling to say that when I went
to school in the fifties and sixties, it was a
very wealthy neighborhood and a lot of the parents were
considering private schools. Instead, they went to our school district.
The community came together and they developed a program so
that teachers were able to get their master's degree if
they agreed stay and teach for an additional two years.
(41:47):
What that did was give every one of us kids,
those of us who did not come from families with
a lot of money, the best education that could we
could possibly have. Public money can be used, but it
should be used for every child.
Speaker 1 (42:02):
Lydia, thank you very much for that call, Doug Harris
your thoughts on that, and she brings up you know,
back in the fifties and sixties, is this was there
a movement in that time period. I wasn't alive in
the fifties and sixties, but was there a movement in
that time period really to beef up the public schools
in a way that we haven't seen more recently.
Speaker 5 (42:23):
Well, in the fifties and sixties, if the main issue
of the day was segregation, we have Brownbie Board of
Education nineteen fifty four, and then that triggered quarter century
or really even longer of trying to deal with that
very difficult issue that had been with the country for
so long. So I think that was really the kind
of the dominant feature at that point. One other part
(42:45):
that I think is worth talking about about how things
were different back then and how this fits in with
the public school conversation, is that public schools, because of
their neighborhood based that the disadvantage that is kind of
implied in this whole conversation as well, you have to
attend where your school, where your home is right, and
that in that neighborhood. There's a plus to that actually,
(43:06):
So yes, it means you don't have as much choice.
The plus side of that, though, is that it actually
creates some community bonds and U so you know, you
know the other kids who are walking to school parents,
do you have to know each other more? I had
that growing up. But yeah, I say, we knew all
the kids in our in our neighborhood. For that reason.
Here in New Orleans when I when I moved here
(43:28):
twelve years ago, not like that at all. We really
didn't get to know people in our neighborhood. Every we
had all these people were still had kids and we're
saying to different schools, but they were going all over
the city, so we didn't really have the neighborhood bonds
in the same way. So I think that's another thing
that's that's different about you know, back then, how it
used to be, and how traditional public schools fed that
(43:50):
and reinforced that that we that is part of this
choice conversation.
Speaker 1 (43:53):
Now Robin, Like, what do you think about that geographic
part of all of this. If you have kids that
are going to schools that aren't just you know, a
few blocks away from their does that have a negative effect?
In general?
Speaker 4 (44:03):
I think most people prefer for their kids to go
to school nearby and with their peer groups that they
grew up with. But if they have to choose, if
the schools are not safe, if the school's not performing,
they will move their child and they'll do whatever they
need to to make that happen. I think that you
should We shouldn't be in a position where we ask
(44:24):
people to make that choice. We should be able to
deliver great neighborhood schools to every child. But we're a
long way from being able to do that, especially right
now after COVID. Things are not looking good. Kids are
not al right on academic fronts, mental health, so many
different areas, and so you know, we can't give up
when we talk about choice. We can't give up on
(44:46):
the idea improving the neighborhood school. At the same time,
I don't think they're mutually exclusive choices.
Speaker 1 (44:51):
Yeah, I have to think that as bad as COVID
was for everybody in this country and around the world.
That being a student and being taken out of school
for you know, a year and a half or whatever,
and away from your friends and back into your home.
Whatever was going on there must have been very, very difficult,
and we'll be seeing the repercussions of that as they
get into college, as they get into the workforce, et cetera.
(45:13):
Let's go to Ann in Raleigh, North Carolina, and go ahead,
welcome to the Middle.
Speaker 16 (45:20):
Hi, thank you, Jeremy. Yeah, so I wanted to give
a little bit of perspective on what's going on in
my state in North Carolina. I grew up going to
the public schools in the eighties and nineties, and I
thought we had excellent public schools. And our legislature has
been defunding our public schools for the last few decades,
and they're now trying to make up for it, not
(45:43):
by reinvesting in public schools, but by plucking out students
to give vouchers to go to private and religious schools,
and by creating lifting the cap. We used to have
a cap of one hundred charter schools in our state.
They lifted that cap a few years ago, and there's
been this huge proliferation of charter schools, a lot of
(46:05):
lack of accountability. There have been several that have failed,
and so those kids have been in their schools for
years and they've just been failing schools. And there's a
there's a movement called public Schools First and see that
is trying to help people understand what our legislature has
been doing. But I feel the same as a lot
of previous callers. Why is the money being taken and
(46:28):
given to charter schools and vouchers when only a few
kids benefit from those and all kids can benefit from
public schools.
Speaker 1 (46:37):
Let's go to Doug Harris on that.
Speaker 5 (46:39):
Doug, your thoughts, well, I think everybody, I think generally
agrees on the point that every child should have access
to a quality school, and I think the debate is
over whether the traditional public school system by itself does that.
So the question is why would we why would we
give money to a charter school or a private school
or a religious school as alternative. It's because somebody thinks
(47:02):
that some children are not being well served by that system.
So yes, they're moving they are moving money around and
in the long run, and this is a little bit
different point that I think needs to be part of
this conversation is that the states are putting themselves in
a really bad situation, especially on these the vouchers and
the essays. Right now, the states have a lot of
money and that's not going to last very long. The
(47:25):
federal money from COVID is starting to run out. Their
budgets are not going to be able to cover this
for very long. Arizona's already running into trouble and they
just they just started and that the numbers are ballooning
in terms of how much they're spending. I think that
plus healthcare spending and other things that have been putting
a lot of pressure on public school budgets already, I think,
(47:45):
including in North Carolina, they're going to be a lot
of pressures and that's going to have to come out
of the per pupil public school funding and the long run,
they're not going to be able to afford to do this.
Speaker 1 (47:56):
They're not going to be able to afford to do this.
So what will they do.
Speaker 5 (47:59):
That's a good question. I think they're probably going to
have to. They're not generally willing to raise taxes. These
are the new programs, the new voucher programs are all
in conservative states are not willing to raise taxes. That
means they're going to cut spending, and it seems very
likely that they're going to end up cutting public school funding.
Speaker 1 (48:15):
Tolliver, I think we have time if there's any comment
that you want to call out that's coming in online.
Speaker 2 (48:19):
Yeah, this one is personal to me. Unless children are
offered transportation and busting to the school of their choice,
it's not really a choice. Middle and lower income families
cannot afford to get their kids back and forth to school.
They may both work or only have one vehicle. I
used to go two hours back and forth to the
Magnet school I went to in high school. Very draining. Yeah, so,
Robin Lake. Have there been initiatives to maybe provide transportation
(48:41):
for kids to get to charter schools?
Speaker 4 (48:43):
Certainly in the charter school space, public schools and the
laws typically try to provide for some of those opportunities.
In New Orleans, where Doug Is has invested a lot
in transportation and enrollment systems and help for families just
through the choice process so they can be as equitable
as possible. Choice really demands investment and work to make
(49:10):
sure that the kids who most need those options can
access them. So it's it's really important that happened.
Speaker 1 (49:16):
We have time, Tolliver for a very brief quiz for
our guests. Go ahead, I'll go fast.
Speaker 2 (49:20):
Which state has the most charter schools relative to its population? Illinois,
New Mexico, Arizona or New York?
Speaker 1 (49:27):
Either of you? Your guest, Doug Harris, Illinois, New Mexico,
Arizona or New York most charter schools relative to population?
Speaker 5 (49:37):
Oh guess New Mexico.
Speaker 1 (49:39):
And Robin Lake, what's your what's your guests?
Speaker 4 (49:42):
A boy?
Speaker 2 (49:42):
Oh boy, you got this.
Speaker 15 (49:45):
Robin.
Speaker 4 (49:45):
I'm the guest Arizona.
Speaker 1 (49:47):
You got it, Arizona.
Speaker 2 (49:48):
That was my hint to you. I said, you got
it all right.
Speaker 1 (49:51):
Well, I want to thank my guest, Doug Harris, director
of the National Center for Research on Education Access and
Choice at Tulane University and author of the book Charter City,
and Robin Lake, direct of the Center on Reinventing Public
Education at Arizona State University. Thank you both so much.
Speaker 5 (50:05):
Thanks for having me.
Speaker 4 (50:06):
It's been a pleasure.
Speaker 1 (50:07):
And by the way, our next show next week is
about TikTok. We are asking if you think it should
be banned never.
Speaker 2 (50:14):
You can call us at eight four four four six
four three three five three or right in at Listen
to the Middle dot com, and while you there, sign
up for our weekly newsletter.
Speaker 1 (50:23):
The Middle is brought to you by Longnook Media, distributed
by Illinois Public Media in Urbana, Illinois, my hometown where
I went to public school. Produced by Joe Anne Jennings,
Harrison Patino, John Barth, and Danny Alexander. Our technical director
is Jason Croft. Our theme music was composed by Andrew
Haig and Tolliver. Thanks to Basin Street Records here in
(50:43):
New Orleans. The music you are hearing right now, this
is Develle Crawford with song for James. That's our music
today on the program Special Thanks to Adam Voss, Paul Mason,
Aubrey Uhaz, Garrett Pittman, Ryan Vasquez, and Robert Carrol here
at WWNO in beautiful New Orleans for hosting us. Thanks
also to Nashville Public Radio, iHeartMedia and the now more
(51:04):
than three and ninety public radio station just keeps going
up that are making it possible for people across the
country to listen to the Middle. I'm Jeremy Hobson. Time
for some New Orleans food. Talk to you next week.
Hey, Tolliver. Hey, hey, we have an announcement because you know,
I keep calling you the DJ, but for our podcast listeners,
they don't know why I say that, because we have
to strip all the music out because we don't have
the rights to play it on the podcast, but we
do have the rights to play it on the broadcast.
Right Yeah, So here's the good news this episode, they
(00:21):
will hear you in your full DJ nois because we
have gotten special permission from Basin Street Records. I'm in
New Orleans, that's where they're based. We have gotten special
permission from Basin Street Records to play the music in
the podcast. So incredible podcast listeners, stand by for maybe
the best middle you've ever heard.
Speaker 2 (00:39):
The best DJ of your life.
Speaker 1 (00:41):
Come on, Welcome to the Middle. I'm Jeremy Hobson at
Station WWNO in New Orleans this week, and as always,
Tolliver is here. Hi Tolliver, Hey Jeremy.
Speaker 2 (00:56):
Before you jump into this week's topic, we have some
new listeners.
Speaker 1 (00:59):
We do have some new listeners.
Speaker 2 (01:00):
Yes, welcome to the listeners of Vermont Public all across
the state of Vermont.
Speaker 1 (01:04):
Which also means into the Montreal, Canada area. So bimvenue
to the listeners there. Taliver, you know, when I first
told our friends here at WWNO that we wanted to
do a live show from New Orleans, they said, get
in line, But then they said, you have to talk
about education in school choice. It is a huge issue,
not just here in Louisiana but all over the country.
Coming out of the COVID pandemic, parents were frustrated with
(01:28):
their kids public schools, and lawmakers across the country, particularly Republicans,
have been passing laws to allow families to use public
funds to send their kids to private schools or in
some cases pay expenses related to homeschooling. Just last year,
ten states did that. So this hour we're asking, are
you in favor of allowing public dollars to be used
(01:49):
for families to send their kids to a school of
their choice, including private options. Taliver, can you give our
listeners the number please?
Speaker 2 (01:57):
Yes, it's eight four four four Middle that's eight four
four or four six four three three five three. You
can also email us by going to listen to the
Middle dot com.
Speaker 1 (02:05):
And before we get to your calls, I'm here with
Aubrey Uhas, whose education reporter for WWNO Aubrey. Here in
New Orleans, nearly all students in the public education system
are in charter schools. It's the only city in America
with an all charter system. Can you first just remind
us what a charter school is and why is it
all charter here in New Orleans.
Speaker 3 (02:25):
Charter schools are public schools. They just aren't run by
a local school board. At the end of the day,
the local school board has power over them, but they're
run by charter operators, independent management companies that get public
funds that they can then spend, so they sometimes have
a private school feel, but they are public schools at
the end of the day. And the reason why we
have this totally unique system is because of Hurricane Katrina.
(02:48):
We had a couple of charter schools before the storm.
It was maybe starting to move in that direction, but
it really takes a huge disaster and a disruption for
something radical like this to happen. It was something that
state official wanted and eventually they kind of hands it
all of the schools over to charter operators. Now the
city has control of its schools, is something they've decided
to keep in place.
Speaker 1 (03:08):
Now the legislators in Baton Rouge today want to go
even further and statewide offer people to have education savings
accounts that have been enacted in other states.
Speaker 3 (03:19):
What are they proposing, right, I mean, they're looking at
states like Florida and Arizona that have universal education savings accounts,
meaning that anyone can.
Speaker 1 (03:28):
Have access, not just low income people, right.
Speaker 3 (03:30):
Right, And that's what kind of makes them more radical
than some of the other choice policies we have. We
have things like scholarships and tax credits in Louisiana currently,
but they're very limited. You know, it has to be
specific circumstance as a kid who has a special you know,
exceptionality and can't be served in traditional school, or a
family that meets certain economic requirements. But these would be
(03:51):
very very broad programs that could potentially allow a lot
of people to exit the public school system. And they're
really advocating for this because they believe in what they
describe as parent rights, this ability to kind of decide
for yourself whether or not you think the public school
is meeting your child needs, your family's needs, and if
that's not the case, then exit that system. And in
(04:12):
this case, lawmakers are wanting people to be able to
take public dollars with them.
Speaker 1 (04:15):
And the former governor was a Democrat, John Bell Edwards,
who blocked this kind of thing. Correct, But now the
state has a new Republican governor, Jeff Landry, who wants this.
So is it a done deal.
Speaker 3 (04:27):
Possibly. It really depends on if lawmakers want to prioritize
it in the session. If they do, we don't expect
Landry to veto it like John Bell Edwards did. The
real question is whether they'll go for a universal policy
or something more narrow.
Speaker 1 (04:40):
To start that is Aubrey you haas here at WWNO.
She covers education. Aubrey, thank you, my pleasure. So now
let's introduce our panel. Guest here in the studio with
me in New Orleans is Doug Harris, director of the
National Center for Research on Education, Access and Choice at
Tulane University, where he also teaches economics, and he is
the author of the book Charter City. Doug Harris, Welcome,
(05:01):
thanks for having me and joining us from Seattle is
Robin Lake, director of the Center on Reinventing Public Education
at Arizona State University. Robin Lake, welcome to you.
Speaker 4 (05:10):
Thanks Jeremy and before.
Speaker 1 (05:12):
We get to the phones, Doug Harris, there is definitely
somewhat of a revolution going on right now on this issue.
Lots of states adding or trying to add an option
for parents who don't want their kids in public schools
to use these public funds to help them go to
private or homeschool. Is this the biggest move towards so
called school choice that you've seen in the decades you've
(05:32):
been following this issue. Yes and no.
Speaker 5 (05:35):
No, in the sense that we've had school choice for
a long time, using those terms charter schools, choice amongst
traditional public schools, homeschooling more than a third of students
even before the recent voucher proposals came through, we're already
attending a school other than their neighborhood public schools. So
choice has already been happening. What's different here is the
shift towards vouchers and towards private schools, religious schools. And
(05:58):
I do think in that respect not even just the
biggest shift in school choice, it's actually the biggest change
in education policy I can think of, going back many decades.
Speaker 1 (06:06):
And Robin Lake, how much do you think that is
because of COVID and all the closures and parents maybe
being dissatisfied with their public schools.
Speaker 4 (06:14):
COVID pushed a lot of people to do things differently
out of desperation and happiness with virtual schooling or other reasons,
you know. But I think it's important to recognize that
the issues that families were expressing during COVID existed before
COVID as well, sort of, you know, just the inability
to find a good fit for their kid. It just
(06:35):
came to a you know, a breaking point, I guess
in COVID.
Speaker 1 (06:41):
Doug Harris, what do we know about the effectiveness? Do
we see better outcomes when students move out of struggling
public schools and into other schools? Actually?
Speaker 5 (06:49):
No, So there are four states where smaller programs have
been put in place, and then they and we've been
able to study what happens when students move from traditional
public schools to private schools using these vouchers, and academically
they actually tend to do worse, and pretty consistently across
states do worse on test scores, for example, is the
main metric that we have. How it works with universal
(07:12):
programs is going to be different because now you're opening
it up to a much broader audience. And these ones
that we've studied more recently, and these are very new.
These universal programs have really only been around for a
few years, so we don't know a lot about those.
But the others, the more targeted ones, the results have
not been positive.
Speaker 1 (07:26):
Just to clarify, when you say universal, you're talking about
that it is open to people of all incomes. It's
exact to people at a certain income level. Robin Lake,
A lot of your research is focused on charter schools.
Are students at charter schools have you seen are they
getting better educated than their peers at the local public schools.
Speaker 4 (07:44):
Yeah, if you look at the national picture, the outcomes
are a little bit better in charter schools. But charter
schools aren't a national policy, they're state policies, and so
you really have to get underneath the hood a little
bit to understand how variation plays out in different states.
Policy really matters when it comes to any kind of
(08:04):
choice policy, and that's true with charter schools as well.
So we see a number of states that are getting
much better outcomes for kids with their charter school policies.
In many cases, low income black and Hispanic students tend
to do better in charter schools. But yeah, and you
know it really depends on the design. Choice isn't magic.
(08:27):
You really have to figure out how to get it right.
Speaker 1 (08:29):
Let's go to the phones. Denny is with us from Gladstone, Missouri. Denny,
welcome to the middle. Go ahead, Hi, Denny, Yeah.
Speaker 6 (08:40):
Go ahead, Yeah this is Denny.
Speaker 1 (08:44):
Yeah, go ahead, Denny. Tell us what you think.
Speaker 6 (08:48):
Oh, I appreciate it. Man, Hey, A lot going on.
I actually taught twenty five years urving Kansas City. A
lot of ways to go. First of all, to start
off private, I don't think so unless the school district
is unaccredited, or let's say their activities are very very weak,
(09:10):
then maybe sum should be set up. But I love
the charters. They're competitive. They make the other districts pick
up their games. This KIP Academy down in Kansas City,
which is actually throughout the country. They're doing a wonderful job.
(09:32):
The what I like is what Kansas has done open borders.
If you go to any district you want in Kansas,
you just got to get your transportation all right.
Speaker 1 (09:43):
Well, so so you're you're you're in favor. Let me,
let me just take your thoughts to the panel here,
Robin Lake, somebody who thinks that the charter schools actually
bring up the quality of the public schools.
Speaker 4 (09:54):
Yeah, I mean, it's great to hear that that he's
having a good experience with the KIP schools. KIP is
a national network of charter schools that's had pretty extraordinary
results over the years, and so it's a great example
of what's possible within the charter space. And I think
what Denny's also referring to is that there's a really
broad spectrum of choice that states can say to districts,
(10:19):
you know, let's have a lot of choice within the
district across districts. Charters and districts might collaborate and you
might have some private school options as well. So there
are a number of states that have the whole spectrum
of opportunity, and when it comes down to it, most
people do choose. Actually, I think about fifty percent of
(10:39):
families across the country are making some kind of choice
across those public and private options when it comes down
to it. So, yeah, it's it's a lot of different
options out there, just a question of figuring out how
to make it work and really with a spin on equity,
just making sure that it's reaching the kids who need
it most.
Speaker 1 (11:00):
Tolliver. As we mentioned, last year was a really big
year for proponents of school choice, but the idea actually
goes back to the nineteen fifties.
Speaker 2 (11:07):
Yeah, actually a year after the US Supreme Court ruled
to desegregate schools. In nineteen fifty four, an economist at
the University of Chicago who's well known to anyone who's
taken an intro to e concourse, Milton Friedman, introduced the
concept of private school vouchers.
Speaker 7 (11:20):
In my opinion, there is not a single thing you
could do in this world that would do more to
improve the condition of the black people who are in
the lowest income classes, of the black people who have
been most affected by discrimination. There is not anything that
you could do that would be more effective in the
(11:40):
voucher scheme.
Speaker 1 (11:42):
Doug Harris, what has been the effect of school choice
on segregation? Has this helped in terms of racial equality
in schools? Or has it pulled richer, perhaps wider kids
out of the public schools and made the public schools
more segregated.
Speaker 5 (11:55):
Actually, the traditional public schools honestly are presegregated to start with.
So when you introduced about your program, and it doesn't
seem to change things very much. They're pretty segregated. Now
you introduced about your program, they remain pretty segregated. So
that I think the more important aspect of this equity
question is more about outcomes, right, So how do students
(12:16):
actually do? And again, if we look at these state
wide voucher programs that I was talking about earlier in
the in four states where we've been able to study them,
it doesn't seem to work out that way. Not the
way charters. Charter schools have been more effective in serving
those students, vouchers haven't standby.
Speaker 1 (12:31):
I want to remind our listeners that The Middle is
also available as a podcast in partnership with iHeart Podcasts
on the iHeart app or wherever you listen to podcasts
and Tolliver. What are we listening to here?
Speaker 2 (12:43):
Well, since we're broadcasting from New Orleans this week, we've
got some tunes from Basin Street Records. This is Kermit
Ruffins with drop Me Off in New Orleans. He started
out playing trumpet in eighth grade and co founder Rebirth
Brasman in high school and makes a mean barbecue at
his restaurant, mother in law. We're taking your calls at
eight four four four Middle. That's eight four four four
(13:03):
six four three three five three. Keep it locked.
Speaker 8 (13:07):
In this city, call New Holly. If not New Oddly,
let me here is clean, hold the feeling much better
than now, like my.
Speaker 1 (13:22):
Home is filled.
Speaker 8 (13:24):
When down it out and you feel this no way out,
you get dropped all and new Oddly.
Speaker 1 (13:43):
This is the Middle. I'm Jeremy Hobson. If you're just tuning,
in the Middle is a national calling show. We are
focused on elevating voices from the middle geographically, politically, and philosophically.
Or maybe you just want to meet in the middle.
This hour, we're in New Orleans and we're talking about
school choice. What do you think of pro that use
public funds to send kids to private school or to
(14:03):
be homeschooled. Do you live in a state that offers
education savings accounts? How has it worked out for you? Tolliver?
How can people reach us?
Speaker 2 (14:10):
You can call us at eight four four four Middle.
That's eight four four four six four three three five three.
You can also write to us at Listen to the
Middle dot com. You'll find our social media accounts there too.
Speaker 1 (14:21):
Joining us Doug Harris, director of the National Center for
Research on Education, Access and Choice at Tulane University, and
Robin Lake, director of the Center on Reinventing Public Education
at Arizona State University. And a lot of calls coming in,
so let's get to them. Gabriel is right here in
New Orleans, Louisiana. Gabriel, welcome to the middle.
Speaker 9 (14:41):
Go ahead, Hi, thank you. I have to have three
reasons that I'm not for it in a wide open
general sense. Number one, I think this is just a
it could be a subsidy just for rich people to
send their their kids who already sending their kids to
(15:02):
private school, just to get ten thousand dollars or so
off their bill. Second of all, it'll be taking money
away from a public schools system that you know, the
government isn't nimble, So if you have large percentages of
their students disappearing, these these school systems have fixed unavoidable costs.
(15:24):
So you know, if you have you know, you have
to pay your light bill, you have to do maintenance,
if you and if the money is following the student
and you lose half your students, that means you can't
pay your light bill, your electric bill. There's there's basic
things that need that have to happen. And the third thing,
I think, just like COVID stimulus or you know, I'm
(15:48):
in New Orleans. We you know, we had lots of
experience with well after Hurricane Katrina, right, you know, there
was something called the own program, and so both rode
Home and COVID unless you had you know, entrepreneurs were
really just fraudsters who came in set up these so
many businesses and you know, ran away with government money.
(16:10):
And I just have a feeling that's what's going to
happen here.
Speaker 1 (16:13):
Yeah, So so thank you so much, Gabriel for that.
Lots lots of stuff there to talk about. Doug Harris,
accountability and just the idea that in a universal situation
where anybody of any income can have a voucher and
take it and take their kid out of public school
into private school, you could just have a wealthy family
that is already sending their kid to private school, just
(16:34):
taking more money out of the public school system that
they were spending.
Speaker 5 (16:36):
Anyway, that's already happening, and it's you know, basically what's
happened is when of these programs get put in place,
who's who can use them. They're people who are already
in private schools, And so the vast majority of the
money is going to hire income families at the stage.
What's interesting is what happens next. So do we see
more families from from lower and middle incomes also kind
(16:58):
of joining them, and do we see more private schools
opening up to try to attract them. So I think
that's why I said earlier it's a really revolutionary change,
is partly because in the long term you could really
see a substantial shift in even the kinds of schools
that exist.
Speaker 1 (17:14):
Let's go to RJ in Laramie, Wyoming. RJ. Welcome to
the middle. Go ahead.
Speaker 4 (17:21):
Yeah.
Speaker 10 (17:21):
You know, when we talk about the school choice, I
am a proponent of the school choice and vouchers and
money following the students. However, we've got to keep in
mind that wherever the federal moneies go, whether it's to
a private institution, whether it's a charter, whether it's home school,
(17:45):
those federal moneies come with stipulations. They come with regulations.
So in other words, what we're going to do here
and what's already been happening is the umbrella of public
schools is just going to become larger, and there's going
to be more underneath that umbrella. Because the public schools,
(18:06):
and I think I miss quote, the public school umbrella
is just going to get larger. Those public schools have
to keep track of where these students are. So they
have to have the personnel, the apparatus, and the funding
to track where their community students go. So when people
want to have the idea that hey, I'm getting out
(18:27):
of the public school because I am you know, I
disillusioned with what's going on, but I want that federal money,
well that federal money comes with.
Speaker 6 (18:41):
Tracks.
Speaker 1 (18:42):
So so Robin Lake, what about that and the issue
of accountability. How do we make sure that in these
situations you're able to keep track and make sure that
people aren't spending the money on a new jet ski
or something like that.
Speaker 4 (18:55):
Right, Like the public dollars, most of them are coming
from the state, federal money as well, and for any
of these programs, there has to be basic accountability for
how things are being spent. With charter schools, which are
public schools, there are a lot of regulations around that.
There's there are a lot of oversight. In some ways,
charter schools are more accountable for their dollars in outcomes
(19:18):
than traditional public schools because of all that built in
accountability now doesn't always play out perfectly. But with the
private school scholarships, it's a different story. Most of them
will require quite a bit of regulation in terms of
the parents have to go to the state and say
this is what I'd like to spend my money on,
and the state has to approve it, so they're tracking
(19:40):
all of that. But there have been instances of money
being spent by parents on things that were approved by
the state that people might say, you know, we're not
a legitimate use of public dollars. Trampolines or music lessons. Yeah,
and these have happened. Now, the dollars involved in these
kinds of things are so small compared to the broader
(20:02):
plot of expenditures in public education, but it's it's real
ultimately for me, you know, the basic spending regulation has
to occur, but accountability for outcomes is what matters the
most to me. And we have to look at these
choice programs and I think we have to look at
public dollars in public education overall. With the COVID spend.
Speaker 1 (20:26):
Let's get to another call. Heather is in Louisiana near
Baton Rouge. Heather, welcome to the middle. What do you
think about public money going into some cases private schools.
Speaker 11 (20:39):
First of all, I am driving, so I do apologize
if I don't come through. Clearly is what I do
for a living, No problem, I am against it. I live,
grew up in a rural area in Louisiana, and I
myself was a private student up until eleventh grade. My
(21:05):
children attended a charter school because again rural area and
there were no public schools available at their grade level.
That being said, I worry about accountability. Another caller had
brought up, you know these little pop up vendors that
happened after Kurricane Katrina that took the money and run,
(21:27):
you know, and took off with it. I don't think
that my state has enough resources to be able to
make sure that these kids don't fall through the cracks.
We already have an overwhelmed Yeah.
Speaker 1 (21:46):
Yeah, well, let me let me take that to Doug Harris,
and Doug, you know the idea of what what Heather
just said there about the state not having the resources
to make sure that this is working. What about testing
and things like that? Do you when the students go
to these to a Catholic school or a private school
or even a charter school, does the state know how
(22:06):
well they're doing for private schools. No.
Speaker 5 (22:09):
In fact, that's one of the main goals I think
for proponents of the policy is to have the government
as uninvolved as possible, so to have no testing, certainly
no testing that would be comparable to anything.
Speaker 1 (22:20):
And why did they want the government as uninvolved as politics?
Because they don't like government generally or.
Speaker 5 (22:25):
Yeah, I think a lot of it's that, and also
the ability to teach religion and teach things that we
would normally put under the separation of church and state
that they want to They don't want to do that anymore.
They want to be able to teach what they want
and to still have a government pay for it. But
have the government stop at that point and say, Okay,
we're just going to give you the money and you
can decide, and we can let parents decide what's an
(22:48):
appropriate education. So I think Robin alluded to this earlier
too about how the accountability in charter schools. That's one
of the reasons why they've been successful academically. You're not
going to have that with vouchers, and it's likely one
of the reasons why they haven't worked in the states
that have tried it.
Speaker 1 (23:05):
Already, Tolliver a huge number of calls coming in, but
also people reaching out to us online.
Speaker 2 (23:11):
Absolutely, Jane writes, if parents can redirect their school taxes
to a private school for their children, then certainly people
who do not have children do not have to pay
school taxes. Correct or can taxpayers without children redirect their
taxes to any child they would like to send a
private school? Make this all make sense?
Speaker 1 (23:26):
Please, Rovin Lake? What about people who don't have kids?
Should they get to take the money and spend it
on whatever they want?
Speaker 4 (23:33):
The purpose of public education is to educate kids, so
I think it's appropriate that money be directed that way.
Like this is. You know, most people do understand it
is a public good. It has a public purpose, and
there's a variety of different experiments going on to see
how to achieve that purpose. Some of them make us uncomfortable,
(23:53):
but certainly we have to keep our eye on the
prize that there is a public policy goal here.
Speaker 1 (23:59):
You know, we don't offer and get calls from people
who have the same name as me, Jeremy, but we
do have one right now. You know, there aren't that many.
I mean, Jeremy Allen White now with the bear. He's
very famous, but there aren't that many Jeremys out there.
We have a Jeremy in the Twin Cities. Jeremy, welcome
to the middle. I want to hear from you. What
do you what do you have to say?
Speaker 12 (24:17):
Hi, thanks for taking my comments. Yeah, I've lived just
outside the Twin Cities now, but I grew up in
rural Northeast Iowa, went to public school and in my opinion,
received an excellent education. So it really bothers me now
seeing these decisions being made to send taxpayer money to
(24:40):
private and sometimes private religious schools, when this money can
be going towards these public schools that are doing an
excellent job if they are provided the proper funding, which
it just seems like so many of the politicians these
days just refuse to do, and they use use evidence
(25:05):
of poor performance as the means for not funding these
schools when it's that exact thing that is causing these
schools to underperform.
Speaker 1 (25:17):
Jeremy grat point. Yeah, let me take that to Doug Harris.
I'm also the child of public schools. I had a
public school education K twelve. Why isn't there the same
movement as there is to take this money and put
it into in some cases private schools, to just make
the public schools better with, you know, to just beef
(25:38):
up the public schools and say we've got a great system.
In many, many, many communities. Ninety percent of Americans K
twelve go to public schools.
Speaker 5 (25:44):
Still, Yeah, I went to public schools as well, But
I think there are cases where the public schools do
not serve children well. And I think that's part of
the impetus and why there's actually fairly broad support for
having some sort of alternatives and giving parents some choices.
And I think the question is what kinds of choices
should we give? What are the boundaries here? And so
(26:05):
we've talked about all the different kinds of choices that
are already out there, charter schools and open boundaries was
one of the callers talked about it, and homeschooling and
so on. So the quick question is how much and
how should the government be involved, what kind of accountability
should we have, and to the callers question how much
money should we be willing to spend on those alternative options,
(26:28):
because it is to some degree going to come out.
Speaker 1 (26:31):
Of the budgets of public schools in the long run.
Let's go to Janelle, who is calling from ann Arbor, Michigan. Janelle,
welcome to the middle What do you think.
Speaker 13 (26:42):
I want to breakfast by saying that I am a
homeschool mom. I homeschooled my children up to middle school.
But I do not think that public funds should go
for home schooling for really charter schools, although that's a
little bit more gray for me. I think I could
have used the money. Any homeschooler would acknowledge that and
(27:04):
what we could do with it. However, I think that
public education is such an important institution and piller of
our society that we need to collectively as a society
support that, even if we ourselves are choosing to seek
alternative means of education.
Speaker 1 (27:22):
So why did you Why did you decide to do
homeschooling instead of send your kids to the public schools
If you believe in public education as you say.
Speaker 13 (27:31):
So, I am not. I thought that I could do
a better job with the academics at home. I wasn't
thrilled with the academics that were happening. I'm met saying
public schools are perfect, but I think they absolutely need
to exist and we need to do and I we
still even as homeschoolers with and supported fundraising and went
to you know, events and sports events. So I'm not
(27:53):
anti public school I just thought that I could do
a better job academically.
Speaker 1 (27:58):
Janelle, thank you so much for that call. Robin Lake.
I'm sure a lot of homeschoolers out there listening to
this right now. What have you What have you found
in terms of people that decide to take the public
money for homeschooling.
Speaker 4 (28:10):
Sure, you know, I think the point it's important to ponder.
I think where I end up going with this is
I've spent a lot of time interviewing families who during
the pandemic or before the pandemic, or as Doug said,
they're really desperate for options and couldn't afford to homeschool
(28:34):
long term, ended up having to send their kids back
to the traditional public school system after the pandemic ended
because I couldn't sustain their homeschooling. I couldn't pay for it.
And so that's where I think things get complicated for
me is there are a lot of families across the
country who can afford to homeschool or send their kids
to private school, that can afford to move to a
(28:56):
different neighborhood if they need to to get what they
need for their kids. But what about the families who
can't afford that? And so that's where things get tricky
for me and make me a little bit uncomfortable. I
think should make us all a little bit uncomfortable. Is
are we willing to close down those options for others?
Speaker 1 (29:14):
Well? And in many cases, the money that you would
get from let's say a voucher or a savings account
would not be enough for a family that doesn't have
additional money to send their kid to another school. It
might just be enough to sort of subsidize somebody who
does have the means, you know, Tolliver. We said a
number of states past legislation last year in favor of
school choice, including Utah, Ohio, Florida, Arkansas, But in Kentucky,
(29:36):
Republicans have so far been unable to do it.
Speaker 2 (29:38):
Yeah, listen here to Andy Basheer, the Democratic governor of Kentucky,
who has vetoed two school choice bills already here he
is in twenty twenty one making the case against it,
that solution is.
Speaker 14 (29:49):
Not taking away more than twenty five million dollars from
public education, and what will be the most significant attack
on it and which what will signal the end public
education as we know it?
Speaker 1 (30:03):
Doug Harris, Why has this issue become so red and
blue where in many cases, in most cases, Republicans are
in favor of school choice, we're so called school choice,
and Democrats are opposed.
Speaker 5 (30:16):
So you had to break it into two parts. So
the first part is just looking at public opinion polling.
So if you look at what people support and by
political party and so on, this doesn't break down red blue.
So roughly fifty percent of Democrats support school vouchers, roughly
fifty percent of Republicans. Black voters heavily support school vouchers,
(30:39):
even though they tend to vote Democratic. It's when you
start thinking about how public opinion translates into interest group
politics and into actual policy, that's when it starts to
break down. So you've got a very well organized, very determined,
very you know, with strongly held views on the conservative right.
(31:01):
Wait evangelicals especially who really want vouchers and they vote Republican.
You've got maga voters who now I think partly coming
out of COVID and with President Trump's really strong criticisms
of public schools during the pandemic, that turned this into
a litmus test issue for Republicans. And now it's very
(31:22):
hard for Republicans nationally to win a primary anywhere without
being in favor of vouchers any essays, and so it
really changed. That's what COVID and President Trump changed in
the last few years, and that's why we have this wave.
Speaker 1 (31:36):
We've got more calls on the line, but stand by
because I want to remind our listeners. The Middle is
also available as a podcast in partnership with iHeart Podcasts
on the iHeart app or wherever you listen to podcasts.
Tolliver more New Orleans music.
Speaker 2 (31:49):
For us Absolutely this is Rebirth Brass band with Rebirth Groove.
The band is heavily featured in HBO's TREMEA one of
my favorite shows. They're Grammy winners and they're largely responsible
for the brand spanned revival of the last like four decades.
More of your Car is coming up on the Middle.
Speaker 1 (32:43):
This is the Middle I'm Jeremy Hobson. We're talking about
school choice, everything from private school vouchers to public charter
schools and education savings accounts. What do you think? Call
us at eight four four four Middle. That's eight four
four four six four three three five three. You can
also reach out to us at Listen to the Middle
dot com. Our guests this hour are Doug Harris, director
(33:03):
of the National Center for Research on Education, Access and
Choice at Tulane University, and Robin Lake, director of the
Center on Reinventing Public Education at Arizona State University. Lots
of calls coming in. Let's get to Elizabeth, who is
in Chicago, Illinois. Elizabeth, Welcome to the Middle.
Speaker 9 (33:22):
Oh hi, how are you doing great?
Speaker 1 (33:24):
Tell us what you think about public dollars going into
private schools or religious schools or charter schools and things
like that.
Speaker 15 (33:33):
Okay, I'm definitely a supporter of it. I grew up
in a rural place. I had public school. Never thought
I would send my kids to a private school. My
daughter wasnosed with dyslexia at the end of her eighth
grade year. She had no options, nowhere to go. We
finally found the only school that specializes in kids with
(33:56):
dystrophia and dyslexia and other learning disabilities, and we got
her in and at fifty thousand dollars a year, and
so she is now there. She's actually getting good grades
for the first time in years. She's confident, you know,
all these benefits. Only problem is is that she was
getting a scholarship through the Empowerment Fund through the state legislature,
(34:19):
and they voted not to continue that next year.
Speaker 9 (34:22):
So here she is.
Speaker 15 (34:24):
She we found you know this, We've writed the thinking chip,
and yet now we don't know whether she'll be able
to go back to that school next year because of dollars.
If we could, if we had school vouchers, it would
be life changing.
Speaker 4 (34:39):
Correct.
Speaker 1 (34:40):
Thank you so much for bringing that to our attention.
Elizabeth and Robin Lake. Do you find because some people
find that public school is better with dealing with learning
disabilities or learning differences, what do you find about whether
people you know are like Elizabeth and they think they've
found the spot and it's not in the public schools.
Speaker 4 (35:01):
I have a lot of sympathy for Elizabeth. I've been
in a situation like that myself, and in talking with
other families who have students with special needs or just
a complicated story. Sometimes it works and sometimes it doesn't.
And every kid's different, and it turns out that every
child is his her own unique package and it may
or may not work in the traditional system that tends
(35:21):
to be pretty one size fits all. And so you know,
that's where I come back to, we need a spectrum
of options, and we've got to stay with what's working
for kids. If Illinois program was working, why does it
shut down? If it was shut down, what other options
(35:41):
are going to be available to families like Elizabeth's. Yeah,
it's tough.
Speaker 1 (35:47):
Emma is calling us from Magnolia, Texas. Hi, Emma, go ahead,
welcome to the middle.
Speaker 16 (35:54):
Hi, hi, hi, Hi, I go ahead. Yes. So, in
regards to the public school versus vouchers, I am so
against it. I came to the United States in nineteen
eighty I was sixteen, So I went to a very
poor high school and literally across one street you cross
(36:18):
and you were into this upper middle class, white town.
And I had the experience of going one day to
that school and the difference was huge. And I've always
been very upset at the fact that, you know, now
with charter schools. Why do we want to reinvent the
(36:40):
whale and send and with charter, you know, taking money
out of the public education system and don't get into
what you would call private when you all you would
have to do is open up or improve equal, make
make the school system is equal on a poor area
(37:02):
and a rich area. My other issue is that what
I have noticed is that the chatter system caters a
lot of religious aspect. Okay, and and and you know,
I don't want to be practician or anything, but I've
(37:24):
noticed it's more of a conservative thought process. So you know,
a lot of the people that have access already to
those school systems are getting more money. And the school
the poor school systems I get in deprive of the
(37:46):
little money that they have.
Speaker 1 (37:47):
Yeah, let me take why why not invest in all
of those schools that And Doug Harris, what do you think?
Speaker 4 (37:54):
Uh?
Speaker 1 (37:55):
What about Emma's point? If you just put more money
into the public schools, then you would bring up the
ones that are doing as well.
Speaker 5 (38:01):
Money is certainly one part of the story. And I
think I think everybody would love to have the situation
where all the schools are wonderful and racial public schools
and so on, and I think it's a little unrealistic.
It's not just about money. It's about how the money,
how the money gets used, and you know what school
principle and what teachers end up in the school, and
what's happening in the community. There are a lot of
(38:23):
things that go into shaping the quality of a school,
and they're not all going to be successful in that situation.
It's some of it's about money, but a lot of
it's not. And I think the question is what do
we do in those situations where, you know, despite having
adequate financial resources, the school still doesn't seem to succeed,
or if you have some unique circumstances, like the prior
(38:43):
caller who had a very distinctive learning disability with her child,
you know what, it could be that the school actually
it is great for most students, but maybe for that
particular student doesn't fit. What do we do in those situations?
That's really what the debates about.
Speaker 1 (38:57):
You know, Robin Lake, And it sounded like your dog
might have wanted to say something thing as well to
the caller. But but you know, we've we've talked a
little bit about the the Republican and Democratic divide in
terms of politicians that are in favor or against UH
school choice. What about the people who decide to go
to these UH to these schools, who decide that they
(39:19):
don't want to be in the public school system. Is
there a partisan breakdown there that you've seen, Because we've
heard from so many people on different sides of this
this evening.
Speaker 4 (39:31):
My dog says, no, there there there really isn't you know. Families,
Families choose because there their child needs a different option,
and usually they don't care, or sometimes they don't even
know what the school is called, whether it's a charter
school or a neighborhood school or something else. That's that's
really not an issue to them. There their choices are
(39:55):
very popular with parents across the board, Democrat, Republican, and yeah,
it really doesn't play out. It's also true, interestingly, the
people who start these schools tend to be pretty liberal.
Even though schools and toys are sort of known for
being kind of a more of a conservative movement. The
(40:15):
folks who start them wanted wanted to create better options
for kids who don't have them, So yeah, it really
it crosses party lines. The politicians like to make it
partisan if they can. But ultimately what matters is, you know,
is that is the child that are off.
Speaker 1 (40:33):
Let's go to Thomas, who is in Las Vegas, Nevada. Thomas.
Welcome to the middle. Hi, how are you doing great?
Go ahead, Mike.
Speaker 17 (40:44):
I have a two kids that are currently in charter
schools in in Las Vegas, and uh, the schools that
they're zoned for are poor performing. The schools they go
to now are just better performing schools. They test better.
So I just want my kids the opportunity to go
(41:06):
to a better performing school and just the schools are
zone floor just aren't.
Speaker 15 (41:12):
Up to it.
Speaker 1 (41:13):
Okay, So in favor of charter schools, and let's go
to Lydia in Lakeland, Florida, Lydia. What do you think?
Go ahead?
Speaker 9 (41:23):
Hello.
Speaker 18 (41:24):
So I was calling to say that when I went
to school in the fifties and sixties, it was a
very wealthy neighborhood and a lot of the parents were
considering private schools. Instead, they went to our school district.
The community came together and they developed a program so
that teachers were able to get their master's degree if
they agreed stay and teach for an additional two years.
(41:47):
What that did was give every one of us kids,
those of us who did not come from families with
a lot of money, the best education that could we
could possibly have. Public money can be used, but it
should be used for every child.
Speaker 1 (42:02):
Lydia, thank you very much for that call, Doug Harris
your thoughts on that, and she brings up you know,
back in the fifties and sixties, is this was there
a movement in that time period. I wasn't alive in
the fifties and sixties, but was there a movement in
that time period really to beef up the public schools
in a way that we haven't seen more recently.
Speaker 5 (42:23):
Well, in the fifties and sixties, if the main issue
of the day was segregation, we have Brownbie Board of
Education nineteen fifty four, and then that triggered quarter century
or really even longer of trying to deal with that
very difficult issue that had been with the country for
so long. So I think that was really the kind
of the dominant feature at that point. One other part
(42:45):
that I think is worth talking about about how things
were different back then and how this fits in with
the public school conversation, is that public schools, because of
their neighborhood based that the disadvantage that is kind of
implied in this whole conversation as well, you have to
attend where your school, where your home is right, and
that in that neighborhood. There's a plus to that actually,
(43:06):
So yes, it means you don't have as much choice.
The plus side of that, though, is that it actually
creates some community bonds and U so you know, you
know the other kids who are walking to school parents,
do you have to know each other more? I had
that growing up. But yeah, I say, we knew all
the kids in our in our neighborhood. For that reason.
Here in New Orleans when I when I moved here
(43:28):
twelve years ago, not like that at all. We really
didn't get to know people in our neighborhood. Every we
had all these people were still had kids and we're
saying to different schools, but they were going all over
the city, so we didn't really have the neighborhood bonds
in the same way. So I think that's another thing
that's that's different about you know, back then, how it
used to be, and how traditional public schools fed that
(43:50):
and reinforced that that we that is part of this
choice conversation.
Speaker 1 (43:53):
Now Robin, Like, what do you think about that geographic
part of all of this. If you have kids that
are going to schools that aren't just you know, a
few blocks away from their does that have a negative effect?
In general?
Speaker 4 (44:03):
I think most people prefer for their kids to go
to school nearby and with their peer groups that they
grew up with. But if they have to choose, if
the schools are not safe, if the school's not performing,
they will move their child and they'll do whatever they
need to to make that happen. I think that you
should We shouldn't be in a position where we ask
(44:24):
people to make that choice. We should be able to
deliver great neighborhood schools to every child. But we're a
long way from being able to do that, especially right
now after COVID. Things are not looking good. Kids are
not al right on academic fronts, mental health, so many
different areas, and so you know, we can't give up
when we talk about choice. We can't give up on
(44:46):
the idea improving the neighborhood school. At the same time,
I don't think they're mutually exclusive choices.
Speaker 1 (44:51):
Yeah, I have to think that as bad as COVID
was for everybody in this country and around the world.
That being a student and being taken out of school
for you know, a year and a half or whatever,
and away from your friends and back into your home.
Whatever was going on there must have been very, very difficult,
and we'll be seeing the repercussions of that as they
get into college, as they get into the workforce, et cetera.
(45:13):
Let's go to Ann in Raleigh, North Carolina, and go ahead,
welcome to the Middle.
Speaker 16 (45:20):
Hi, thank you, Jeremy. Yeah, so I wanted to give
a little bit of perspective on what's going on in
my state in North Carolina. I grew up going to
the public schools in the eighties and nineties, and I
thought we had excellent public schools. And our legislature has
been defunding our public schools for the last few decades,
and they're now trying to make up for it, not
(45:43):
by reinvesting in public schools, but by plucking out students
to give vouchers to go to private and religious schools,
and by creating lifting the cap. We used to have
a cap of one hundred charter schools in our state.
They lifted that cap a few years ago, and there's
been this huge proliferation of charter schools, a lot of
(46:05):
lack of accountability. There have been several that have failed,
and so those kids have been in their schools for
years and they've just been failing schools. And there's a
there's a movement called public Schools First and see that
is trying to help people understand what our legislature has
been doing. But I feel the same as a lot
of previous callers. Why is the money being taken and
(46:28):
given to charter schools and vouchers when only a few
kids benefit from those and all kids can benefit from
public schools.
Speaker 1 (46:37):
Let's go to Doug Harris on that.
Speaker 5 (46:39):
Doug, your thoughts, well, I think everybody, I think generally
agrees on the point that every child should have access
to a quality school, and I think the debate is
over whether the traditional public school system by itself does that.
So the question is why would we why would we
give money to a charter school or a private school
or a religious school as alternative. It's because somebody thinks
(47:02):
that some children are not being well served by that system.
So yes, they're moving they are moving money around and
in the long run, and this is a little bit
different point that I think needs to be part of
this conversation is that the states are putting themselves in
a really bad situation, especially on these the vouchers and
the essays. Right now, the states have a lot of
money and that's not going to last very long. The
(47:25):
federal money from COVID is starting to run out. Their
budgets are not going to be able to cover this
for very long. Arizona's already running into trouble and they
just they just started and that the numbers are ballooning
in terms of how much they're spending. I think that
plus healthcare spending and other things that have been putting
a lot of pressure on public school budgets already, I think,
(47:45):
including in North Carolina, they're going to be a lot
of pressures and that's going to have to come out
of the per pupil public school funding and the long run,
they're not going to be able to afford to do this.
Speaker 1 (47:56):
They're not going to be able to afford to do this.
So what will they do.
Speaker 5 (47:59):
That's a good question. I think they're probably going to
have to. They're not generally willing to raise taxes. These
are the new programs, the new voucher programs are all
in conservative states are not willing to raise taxes. That
means they're going to cut spending, and it seems very
likely that they're going to end up cutting public school funding.
Speaker 1 (48:15):
Tolliver, I think we have time if there's any comment
that you want to call out that's coming in online.
Speaker 2 (48:19):
Yeah, this one is personal to me. Unless children are
offered transportation and busting to the school of their choice,
it's not really a choice. Middle and lower income families
cannot afford to get their kids back and forth to school.
They may both work or only have one vehicle. I
used to go two hours back and forth to the
Magnet school I went to in high school. Very draining. Yeah, so,
Robin Lake. Have there been initiatives to maybe provide transportation
(48:41):
for kids to get to charter schools?
Speaker 4 (48:43):
Certainly in the charter school space, public schools and the
laws typically try to provide for some of those opportunities.
In New Orleans, where Doug Is has invested a lot
in transportation and enrollment systems and help for families just
through the choice process so they can be as equitable
as possible. Choice really demands investment and work to make
(49:10):
sure that the kids who most need those options can
access them. So it's it's really important that happened.
Speaker 1 (49:16):
We have time, Tolliver for a very brief quiz for
our guests. Go ahead, I'll go fast.
Speaker 2 (49:20):
Which state has the most charter schools relative to its population? Illinois,
New Mexico, Arizona or New York?
Speaker 1 (49:27):
Either of you? Your guest, Doug Harris, Illinois, New Mexico,
Arizona or New York most charter schools relative to population?
Speaker 5 (49:37):
Oh guess New Mexico.
Speaker 1 (49:39):
And Robin Lake, what's your what's your guests?
Speaker 4 (49:42):
A boy?
Speaker 2 (49:42):
Oh boy, you got this.
Speaker 15 (49:45):
Robin.
Speaker 4 (49:45):
I'm the guest Arizona.
Speaker 1 (49:47):
You got it, Arizona.
Speaker 2 (49:48):
That was my hint to you. I said, you got
it all right.
Speaker 1 (49:51):
Well, I want to thank my guest, Doug Harris, director
of the National Center for Research on Education Access and
Choice at Tulane University and author of the book Charter City,
and Robin Lake, direct of the Center on Reinventing Public
Education at Arizona State University. Thank you both so much.
Speaker 5 (50:05):
Thanks for having me.
Speaker 4 (50:06):
It's been a pleasure.
Speaker 1 (50:07):
And by the way, our next show next week is
about TikTok. We are asking if you think it should
be banned never.
Speaker 2 (50:14):
You can call us at eight four four four six
four three three five three or right in at Listen
to the Middle dot com, and while you there, sign
up for our weekly newsletter.
Speaker 1 (50:23):
The Middle is brought to you by Longnook Media, distributed
by Illinois Public Media in Urbana, Illinois, my hometown where
I went to public school. Produced by Joe Anne Jennings,
Harrison Patino, John Barth, and Danny Alexander. Our technical director
is Jason Croft. Our theme music was composed by Andrew
Haig and Tolliver. Thanks to Basin Street Records here in
(50:43):
New Orleans. The music you are hearing right now, this
is Develle Crawford with song for James. That's our music
today on the program Special Thanks to Adam Voss, Paul Mason,
Aubrey Uhaz, Garrett Pittman, Ryan Vasquez, and Robert Carrol here
at WWNO in beautiful New Orleans for hosting us. Thanks
also to Nashville Public Radio, iHeartMedia and the now more
(51:04):
than three and ninety public radio station just keeps going
up that are making it possible for people across the
country to listen to the Middle. I'm Jeremy Hobson. Time
for some New Orleans food. Talk to you next week.
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