February 2, 2024 • 48 mins
On the latest episode of The Middle, we'll be asking you: Should the wildly popular social media app TikTok be banned? Jeremy is joined by FCC Commissioner Brendan Carr and Forbes tech reporter Emily Baker-White. The Middle's house DJ Tolliver joins as well, plus callers from around the country.
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Speaker 1 (00:06):
Welcome to the Middle. I'm Jeremy Hobson along with Tolliver
as always. Who is in Nashville this week? Tolliver, how's
it going.
Speaker 2 (00:13):
It's going great. You know, I never knew Nashville had
winter until I got here, but now I absolutely do.
It was ten degrees last week.
Speaker 1 (00:19):
Well, that's why you've got to get inside one of
those honky tonks on Broadway and watch the music. Tal's
that's why they're there at your point, Well, we have
some new listeners to announce this week on South Carolina
Public Radio across the state of South Carolina. Very good
timing because we are just a few weeks away from
that state's Republican presidential primary, which we will get to
on another episode. This hour, we're talking about TikTok, which
(00:43):
is a topic that I know Tolliver is very near
and dear to your heart.
Speaker 2 (00:47):
I'm already laughing. Listen, forty eight percent of my day
is spent on TikTok. It's insane. It's taken everything from
me JAA.
Speaker 1 (00:53):
Well, that's why we can do a longer Middle so
you can have less time on TikTok. But because TikTok
is Chinese owned. There's a lot of fear about what
the company might do with Americans data, so much so
that you cannot have TikTok on any federal devices in
this country, in the military, or on official devices in
most states. But of course the applemain's legal for the
general public for now. So we're asking you should TikTok
(01:17):
be banned in the United States. Our number is eight
four to four four middle. That's eight four four four
six four three three five three. We'll get to your
calls in a moment, but first, last week, we asked
you to weigh in on a contentious issue in education.
Should parents be allowed to use public funds to send
their kids to a school of their choice, including private schools.
We've got a lot of voicemails after the show. Here
(01:38):
are some.
Speaker 3 (01:39):
Hi.
Speaker 4 (01:40):
My name's Jen, I'm calling from Beverly Hills, Michigan.
Speaker 5 (01:43):
My name is Woodrow. I am calling from so in Indiana.
Speaker 6 (01:46):
HI. This is Francis. I have worked both in private
schools and in public schools, and I feel that a
child should be able to go to whatever system works
for them.
Speaker 7 (01:57):
I used to be against this idea.
Speaker 4 (02:00):
I didn't want my taxpayer dollars going to religious institutions. However,
now that I have a child who needs special education services,
the school district that I'm in is not able to
provide those, and I am forced to send my child
to a private school.
Speaker 5 (02:14):
Public education must not be defunded for any reason, least
of all because parents may want to send their children
to a luxury private school or religious academy on the
backs of the public school funding.
Speaker 1 (02:24):
A lot of great calls, thanks to everyone who called in,
so this hour we are asking should TikTok be banned
in the United States, not just because of the issues
that came up on Capitol Hill this week involving all
the social media platforms and the harm that they're causing
young people, but because of national security as well. Let's
meet our panel. Emily Baker White is a technology reporter
for Forbes.
Speaker 8 (02:44):
Emily welcome, Thanks so much for having me.
Speaker 1 (02:47):
And Brendan Carr is a commissioner with the Federal Communications
Commission the FCC. Brendan Carr, welcome to you.
Speaker 9 (02:53):
So good to be with you. Thanks so much.
Speaker 1 (02:55):
And you were appointed by both President Trump and President
Biden to the FCC. See you've been very vocal in
your opposition to TikTok and you are calling for a
total ban.
Speaker 9 (03:05):
Why yeah.
Speaker 10 (03:06):
I think there's two main issues with TikTok as a
threshold matter. As you noted, it is an immensely popular
application with millions and millions of Americans, but there's two
real issues with it. One is surveillance and the second
is foreign influence. And we'll have time to go through
both of those. But if you back up and think
about the life cycle of this issue. Back in twenty nineteen,
(03:28):
twenty twenty, the Trump administration took a run at banning TikTok,
and it didn't succeed through the courts. An issue largely
went dormant for a couple of years, and TikTok was
representing during that period of time that very little or
in some cases they would say effectively no data is
getting back inside of China, so Americans shouldn't be concerned.
And that's when Emily actually broke the story wide open
(03:50):
about eighteen months ago and got leaked internal TikTok communications
that showed, quote, everything is seen in China and this
isn't just seeing the you know, cat videos that you upload.
It's search and browsing history. Keystroke patterns according to TikTok's
terms of service, potentially biometrics, and so that really changed
the nature and tenor of the debate. Over the last
(04:12):
eighteen months. It's been a real live debate at the
federal level. Should we ban TikTok or not. I think
we should based on the national security threat, But in
the spirit of the middle there is a compromise here
as well, which is I think actually the right policy
answer is to require the divestiture of TikTok from ByteDance,
(04:32):
a company that they claim, I believe is based in
the Caymans, But all the reporting that we've seen and
shows us that as an entity that is ultimately beholden
to the CCP, has major operations in Beijing, has many
many members of the CCP that are employed there, in
fact as internal CCP committees within it. And so if
(04:53):
we go that route, people can continue to get the
cat videos that they love, but we could just be
in a much more secure environment by breaking that tie
back to the CCP.
Speaker 1 (05:02):
Let me just ask you one question, because the FCC,
your organization, did ban new sales of telecom equipment from
the Chinese company Huawei in twenty twenty two, another Chinese
company that had raised national security fears. Does the FCC
have the authority to ban TikTok or who does in
the United States?
Speaker 9 (05:20):
Yeah, it wouldn't be the FACY per se.
Speaker 10 (05:22):
The reason I speak about it is because it is
relevant to our expertise. As you noted, we've taken action
at the FCC and what we call the device layer,
so we've addressed Huawei zte those types of devices that
we effectively found were spyware, and we've been.
Speaker 9 (05:34):
Working to get that out of our networks.
Speaker 10 (05:36):
We've also taken action at we call the carrier level,
so entities like China Mobile, China Telecom, we've blocked them
from connecting to our networks based on concerns TikTok is
at the application layer that in the main could be
taken by the Federal Trade Commission, where really the main
focus of activity has been a committee that's actually run
out of Treasury called SCIPIUS, the Committee on Foreign Investment
(05:58):
in the US. That's the one that, through both Trump
and Biden, has been looking the most closely at the
national security threats from TikTok, and frankly, has not over
multiple years now been able to reach the conclusion to bless.
Speaker 9 (06:12):
Their continued operation.
Speaker 10 (06:13):
But while that review is ongoing, TikTok is allowed to
continue to operate in the US. So either the FTC
or Treasury recipius, but also Congress obviously can step in
with legislation, and frankly, I think that's what needs to
happen very quickly here.
Speaker 1 (06:27):
Yeah, if they wanted to make that move, which would
probably be politically kind of difficult, which we'll get to.
Emily Baker White, the Commissioner brought you up there. There
is a criminal case against byte Dance, which is TikTok's
parent company, for using the app to spy on journalists
who were covering the company. They've admitted to doing so,
and you were one of the journalists who was spied on.
How did they do that and why did they do that?
Speaker 8 (06:50):
So, as Commissioner Carr mentioned, I started covering TikTok a
couple of years ago, and as Commissioner car said, I
became sort of the go to TikTok quarter a few
years ago after breaking the story of an internal TikTok
project called Project Texas, and Project Texas with TikTok sort
of big bet to try to separate the access to
(07:12):
US user data from their parent company by Dance, and
I found out that they were trying to do this
because all of that US user data was accessible to
a lot of people in China. And that's troubling because
China has a national security law that requires Chinese nationals,
like regular people and companies in China to turn over
(07:34):
really any information that the government asked them for. And
so what TikTok and its parent company by Dance, we're
trying to do is protect their people in China, who
if the government shows up and says, you have to
give me the data, they can't reasonably ask their employees
to break the law.
Speaker 11 (07:51):
But they didn't.
Speaker 8 (07:52):
They they want to sort of, you know, put a
big sign up like the taxis that say you know,
driver carries no money, right, we don't have can can't
access it. So the employees in trying to can't be
in trouble if they can't access the data in the
first The problem is there are a lot of ways
that TikTok and by Dance have been for years exchanging data,
(08:13):
not necessarily in a nefarious way, but it's just the
way the tool was built.
Speaker 11 (08:17):
And so TikTok was.
Speaker 8 (08:18):
Trying really hard to separate its systems from ByteDance, but
there was still a lot of cross pollination of data happening.
Speaker 11 (08:28):
So I broke that story.
Speaker 8 (08:30):
And then coming from nervous about my breaking that story,
and they wanted to stop weeks to me and to
other journalists, and so they started investigating the leaks, trying
to figure out who was talking to me. And one
of the ways they wanted to do that was they
went and looked on my TikTok account at my IP address,
(08:51):
which gave an approximation of where I was, and then
they compared that location data, that IP based location data
to the IP based locate data of all of TikTok
and Bye Dances employees. And the theory was if I
was in a cafe or a library or a park
and a TikTok or byt Dance employee was in the
same place at the same time, maybe that meant that person.
Speaker 12 (09:11):
Was LEA wow.
Speaker 6 (09:12):
Wow.
Speaker 1 (09:13):
Well, now that we've sufficiently scared the audience, let's get
to one of our callers. Madison is joining us from Austin, Texas. Madison,
what do you think should TikTok be banned.
Speaker 13 (09:24):
Hello, No, I don't think TikTok should be banned, and
I'm very passionate about that, just because of the benefits
I've seen. Of course, everything has negatives, but at the
end of the day, there's so much good in TikTok
and the ability to reach others. I myself even started
a business thanks to TikTok, and so many people have
spoken firsthand just saying how following content and even my
(09:45):
content has inspired them to have confidence and start working out.
You hear these stories all the time about people sharing
videos and their life being changed for the better. So no,
it shouldn't be fun.
Speaker 1 (09:55):
Just briefly, how did you start a business thanks to TikTok?
Speaker 13 (09:59):
I started by post seeing workouts. It's my passion fitness
and health, and shortly after the more people that started
coming in, I decided that I wanted to get certified,
and so after my certification, I then created a whole
business from it and I now train people online.
Speaker 1 (10:15):
Madison, thank you so much for that call. Emily Baker
White your response to that, A lot of people have
started businesses. They're doing commercials about it all the time
from TikTok.
Speaker 8 (10:23):
Now, yeah, I mean One of the one of the
trickiest things about TikTok is that it's huge. There are many,
many millions of Americans and people all around the world
who use this app to communicate, to transact business, to
live their lives, right to engage in really critical discourse.
Speaker 11 (10:43):
And nobody wants to see that shut down. And so
if you believe that there.
Speaker 8 (10:49):
Are national security risks posed by TikTok, that it could
be used, like Commissioner car said, either to sort of
a mass data that is sense it been private information
about us that could fall into the wrong hands, or
that it could be used to sort of influence what
we see right, then the question is how can you
address those concerns without having to stop people like Madison
(11:15):
from being able to have a business.
Speaker 1 (11:16):
And we're going to get to that. But Tolliver, I
will say, I use TikTok only for one reason, which
is to post TikTok's on the middle account. But I
know you feel very differently.
Speaker 2 (11:25):
No, it's my baby. I'm not anywhere near as much
of a super user as like Zach King, who might
be the most popular TikToker. Here's a clip from the
most viewed video on the app two billion views. Zach
King have a little fun with a Harry Potter inspired
special effect.
Speaker 1 (11:42):
Like my costume.
Speaker 9 (11:42):
Yoh, that's so cool.
Speaker 2 (11:44):
How are you doing that?
Speaker 1 (11:45):
You've got a nimbus two thousands?
Speaker 4 (11:46):
Oh?
Speaker 12 (11:46):
I see her?
Speaker 9 (11:47):
Wait is that my longboard? LONGBOARDINGO SA.
Speaker 1 (11:53):
I have to say, I feel even more lost, Tolliver,
I have no idea what is going on in that clip.
I mean you have to look at that. You have to,
But then that means you have to get TikTok, which
means you could be spied on. So who I don't
want to recommend that, But what I would recommend is,
if you're a podcast listeners to the Middle, please go
and rate the podcast. Give us a nice five star rating,
and we would love to hear from you about what
you think. We'll be right back with more of the middle.
(12:17):
This is the Middle. I'm Jeremy Hobson. If you're just tuning,
in the Middle is a national call and show. We're
focused on elevating voices from the middle geographically, politically and philosophically,
or maybe you just want to meet in the middle.
This hour, we're asking should TikTok, the popular social media
video app be fully banned in the United States. Tolliver,
what is our number?
Speaker 2 (12:37):
It's eight four four four Middle. That's eight four four
four six four three three five three. You can also
write to us at Listen to the Middle dot com
or on social media.
Speaker 1 (12:46):
I'm joined by Emily Baker, White, technology reporter for Forbes,
and Brendan Carr, commissioner with the FCC. And before we
get back to the phones' commissioner car there are, as
we said, politicians on both sides of the political spectrum
who have called for a band, But it does seem
like it's an easy thing to say that you want,
but they haven't actually done it. It would be pretty unpopular,
wouldn't that there are one hundred and fifty million users
(13:07):
in the US.
Speaker 10 (13:09):
Yeah, this is one issue that is particularly interesting to me.
You know, there's some discussion in washing DC that says
that the national security officials, Republicans Democrats, including those in
the Biden administration, have been very clear about sounding the
alarm about a very real threat that comes from TikTok
It's data collection and again.
Speaker 9 (13:28):
The foreign influence.
Speaker 10 (13:30):
But we've been hearing that there has been some pushback
from political considerations that to your point, it would be unpopular,
and that that is what so far has been keeping
the app alive. And again, I think it's important that
we focus on, you know, the real national security threat.
But if we do go the route of divestiture again
just breaking that link back to the CCP, that I
(13:50):
think that potential could address all those concerns because it
allows the app to continue to operate. But it is
important to remember what those threats are because at this point,
you know, TikTok has a history of malign condom that
is longer than a CBS proceed If you go back
to that spying on Emily for instance, you know, when
it was first reported by her that someone was being
spied on, it didn't disclose initially that it was her.
(14:12):
TikTok came out and said that that story lacked journalistic integrity.
And again when they were caught having data go back
to China, they you know, initially denied that as well.
And so there's a history here both of malign conduct
and attempting to cover it up. And the foreign influence
side is really interesting. You know, before our twenty twenty
two midterm elections, the CCP state media was setting up
(14:34):
TikTok accounts and targeting select US politicians for criticism ahead
of the election. And there's also been a lot of
studies that have shown through various points in time that
the censorship on TikTok has a very pro CCP bent,
whether it has to do with Weiger genocide or Hong
Kong protests or Tienemn Square, And in fact, recently since
(14:57):
October seventh in Israel, there's been a lot of studies
that show that the pro Palestine or pro Hamas content
more particularly has been getting outsized play on TikTok compared
to Israeli content.
Speaker 1 (15:10):
Let's get to some calls. Veronica is with us from Detroit, Michigan. Veronica,
what do you think should TikTok be banned?
Speaker 14 (15:19):
Absolutely? It kind of bothers me. There's even a debate
about it. There's so many other countries that have already
outlawed it. It seems like they didn't do it lightly.
We should listen and learn. And our countries under constant
cyber attacks and disinformation campaigns from Russia and other countries
(15:40):
trying to weaken our country. China's not really been known
to have the US's interests at heart. So especially in
this critical election year, I don't know why we would
want to put our country at greater list risk, you know,
for the sake of ament Veronica.
Speaker 1 (16:01):
Thank you. You bring up a good point at Emily
Baker White that there are other countries that have banned it,
including India, which did so back in twenty twenty.
Speaker 11 (16:12):
Yeah.
Speaker 8 (16:12):
So, India was an enormous market for TikTok. It's obviously
it's a huge country. There are a lot of people there,
There are a lot of potential ad dollars there, right,
and TikTok was really surging in the country.
Speaker 11 (16:24):
Tons of people were using it.
Speaker 8 (16:27):
And after a spot between the Indian and Chinese forces,
a sort of border dispute, India said, you know what,
we've had it and they banned a bunch of Chinese apps,
not just TikTok, but many many apps that were owned
by Chinese parent companies. And after India banned TikTok, my
(16:49):
colleague Alex Levine had had a really revealing scoop earlier
this year. TikTok didn't delete the data, they actually kept
the data and for a while they were trying to
get back into the India market, they didn't know if
there was ay to work with the Indian regulatory authorities
do some version of Project Texas what I was talking
about what they're trying to do in the US to
get back into the market, but they haven't been able
(17:11):
to do that.
Speaker 1 (17:13):
Johnny is with US from Southern Nevada. Johnny, what do
you think should TikTok be banned?
Speaker 3 (17:19):
I definitely think it should be banned, and not for
any real political reasons. I think it should be dumb
because it's kind of or it should be banned because
it's kind of dumbing down America. I see people from
the age of five to sixty five just doom scrolling
on their phones at work, at school, at home, and
(17:40):
it just kinda Also, people seem to get their news
from there lately, and I don't really agree with that
because it's like, oh I heard that on TikTok. I'm like, Okay,
I'm not going to believe that.
Speaker 1 (17:51):
You know, Well, so do you think that all of
the social media apps should be banned or just TikTok?
Speaker 3 (17:57):
Personally, I don't have any social media whatsoever, and so
I would totally love to see all social media be
banned because me being thirty seven. I've seen what it's like,
you know, being a millennial, what it's like to have
no social media. Actually, I mean we're kind of born
with the birth right the Internet and then also seeing
that the development all the way up to present day,
(18:19):
and I don't see it as good. You know, I
have two boys, young one just went to middle school,
and kids aren't knowing. They don't really know how to socialize.
Like you give them a phone there they're fine right
face to face. They can't have that personal conversation like
what we're doing right now. They wouldn't know what to do.
Speaker 1 (18:36):
Johnny, great point, Thank you, thank you for that call.
And let me go to the Commissioner car on that.
This is sort of one of the things they were
talking about on Capitol Hill this week is the effect
on children of these social media apps. But what about
that just just forget about the national security idea that
social media apps and in particular TikTok maybe is just
bad for society.
Speaker 9 (18:56):
Yeah, Britz is a really interesting point.
Speaker 10 (18:58):
You know, TikTok itself is prohibited by the CCP from
operating the app inside China. There's a sister app called
Doyan and it's very revealing when you compare the two.
So TikTok has been shown in the US to show
kids everything from eating disorder to self harm content to
body image content, whereas the sister app, Douyon, is showing
(19:20):
kids in China educational materials. Museum exhibits instructional materials. So
it's interesting to see the big difference in content between those.
And so I think that's part and parcel of the
concern that goes potentially to the nefarious control by TikTok.
Speaker 9 (19:37):
And you're right, this was live just this week.
Speaker 10 (19:40):
A lot of social media companies are out there, and look,
there are some baseline concerns I have with every social
media company in terms of privacy and data protection, but
I do think there is something unique about TikTok, both
in terms of what we've seen with our own experience
with it, but also those ties back to the CCP
and then again the surveillance law that Emily mentioned as well, Yeah,
go ahead, Emily, go yeah.
Speaker 8 (20:02):
I just I think just to give in what we
saw this week at the hearing. Obviously, there are a
lot of problems sort of across the industry with with
social media companies being able to moderate content at scale.
Speaker 11 (20:14):
It's really hard. But on the point sort.
Speaker 8 (20:16):
Of differentiating the US from China, we don't have a
great firewall here, and.
Speaker 11 (20:23):
We don't ban speech we don't like.
Speaker 4 (20:25):
Uh.
Speaker 8 (20:25):
There's a lot of speech that's that's not great, right. Uh,
there's a lot of speech that's really troubling. But the
sort of theory in the US has been propagandists.
Speaker 11 (20:35):
You can say what you want. Everybody gets a voice here.
Speaker 8 (20:38):
But but we believe that sort of letting everybody speak,
even when we don't like their speech, is the best
way for people to ultimately get the truth. And so
when we talk about banning social media apps because they're
full of a lot of drivell, if we banned all
the drivell, we'd have to ban a lot of stuff.
And so I think it's it's just worth thinking about
whether there is a more targeted approach, whether there's a
(20:59):
scalp instead of a hammer.
Speaker 1 (21:02):
Well, and there's also the question of whether the Supreme
Court would even allow a band because of First Amendment issues.
Let's get to another call here. John is with us
from Harvard Illinois. John, welcome to the middle. What do
you think should TikTok be banned.
Speaker 15 (21:18):
I don't think it should be banned, but your commissioner
stole my thunder there. I was going to say, people
need to go to China and see what TikTok is there.
It's purely educational. It's only available from ten AM to
ten pm, and after that it shuts off, so the
kids are kicked off. If they wanted to run TikTok
(21:41):
in the United States like that, it would be fine.
Speaker 1 (21:44):
John, Thank you, commissioner. Would it be possible do you
think to have a situation in this country. I mean,
we have multiple time zones. I don't know if you
could say ten pm, but it would be possible to
do something like that with the TikTok in this country.
Speaker 10 (21:58):
I think in the main again, if we can get
to sort of breaking that tie back to the CCP,
a lot of these other concerns I have wouldn't be
as strong. We do have some time zone issues obviously,
as you know, sort of on broadcast TV, there's certain
things you can't say except for between ten pm and
six AMS. We do have those rules, and even though
it does wash over different time zones. You raise an
nentering question too, though about the first Amendment, and that's
(22:20):
one that I feel very strongly about, given that, you know,
part of our job here at the FCC is to
promote or at least not inhibit, a diversity of views.
And the first moment analysis here for TikTok is actually
pretty straightforward. The first moment caselaw draws a distinction between
government action based on content of what's being disseminated versus
the conduct on the other hand. So, for instance, there's
(22:41):
this lead Supreme Court case had to do with a
bookstore sort of quintessential First Amendment activity place, and they
were running actually a prostitution ring out of the bookstore,
and the government came in and shut the bookstore down
as a result, and the owner said, you can't shut
down a bookstore that's you know, where First Amendment activity
takes place, and they raised a First Amendment defense, and
the Supreme Court said, this isn't even a First Midment
case at all, because we're taking action based on the
(23:03):
illegal conduct that was taking place in it. And I
think it's the same thing with TikTok. There is obviously
the argument that Americans have a right to choose to
receive or in propaganda, but the way I think about
it too, is you know, you could take a pen
and you can write the most you know, nefarious propaganda
against America that you want. But the moment you take
that same pen and pick a lock with it, well,
(23:24):
that conduct is something that we can take action on.
And it's no defense to say that I was writing
negative things about America beforehand.
Speaker 9 (23:31):
So I think that clear.
Speaker 10 (23:32):
Distinction between conduct and content in TikTok's conduct here with
respect to these data flows give the government a clear
opportunity to take action without violating the First Amendment.
Speaker 1 (23:43):
Tolliver, I hee, Tlliver, Hey, what's that goond Emily, because
we have to give Tolliver our TikTok expert and on
the crew here just opportunity. What are your thoughts here,
Tolliver is so far?
Speaker 2 (23:54):
No, I was good because you know, our caller earlier
said that she started a business on TikTok, and I
just kind of wonder what Commissioner car are you, Emily
withoud have to say to you know, people who are like,
what do you think we would have a serious deleterious
effect on the economy if we got rid of this absently? Emily,
I think that's a big concern for a lot of
do for.
Speaker 8 (24:08):
Me, and you know, I think it would have a
big and deleterious effect on lots of parts.
Speaker 11 (24:15):
Of the economy.
Speaker 8 (24:16):
I think people who think we should ban it think
that means it's more urgent that we ban it. So
I think that argument cuts both ways. But but but
but to your point and and to the color earlier
who called it and said she started business on TikTok.
Speaker 11 (24:32):
Both when it comes to.
Speaker 8 (24:33):
The sort of constitutional arguments and when it comes to
the practical arguments.
Speaker 11 (24:37):
The fact is this thing is so big and.
Speaker 8 (24:39):
So critical and such an important part of our discourse
and our commerce and our culture that when we talk
about sort of taking a government action against it, I
think there are both constitutional and practical questions about what
effects we would want to see that have, and what
(25:00):
effects we wouldn't.
Speaker 1 (25:02):
We have a lot of calls. The lines are full,
so let's get to some more. Panella's Park, Florida, Erica
is joining us right now, Erica, what do you think
should TikTok be banned?
Speaker 12 (25:13):
I don't think the entire app should be banned. I
do like the idea of disconnecting it from China, But
I don't think the entire app should be banned, and
the reason why is because it's not just for entertainment.
There's a lot of educators on there that are teaching
for free during their live videos, languages, mathematics, you name it.
(25:35):
So to lose that I feel be a disservice to
a lot of students.
Speaker 1 (25:39):
Erica, thanks for that call, and let me get another
one in here. Amanda is in Pittsburgh. Amanda, what do
you think should TikTok be banned?
Speaker 16 (25:48):
Personally? Yes, I know this is such a controversial thing,
but I think TikTok should be banned because, honestly, I
think it merits a much larger discussion regarding how much
data and infra we give away and to whom we
give it. I think it's a cultural trend to give
away our data as our free currency, if you will,
(26:08):
right now. And I think we're going to look back
in ten to twenty years at this cultural norm of
giving away this personal information currently mainly for the sake
of entertainment, and I think some of us are going
to shake our heads at how much we gave way
without realizing the repercussions.
Speaker 1 (26:25):
Thank you so much, Amanda, for that call it Commissioner car.
It makes me wonder, actually, you know, if you were
to ban TikTok, couldn't another TikTok just spring up right
away and everybody would start using that instead, and that
could be headquartered in any country around the world.
Speaker 9 (26:40):
Yeah, it's possible, you know.
Speaker 10 (26:41):
To some extent, people have said, well, we shouldn't take
action on TikTok in particular, we should wait and put
sort of a broader law in place that can address
every single possible application that's like TikTok. And what I
say in response to that is that's not our experience
as a government. So for instance, again, when we took
action on Huawei the FCC, that created a precedent and
(27:02):
allowed us to go then after Zte, when we went
after China Mobile, it allowed us to go after China telecoms.
So given the track record and evidence that we have
on TikTok already, I think we should take a rifle
shot action at the federal government at TikTok and then
we can go around and see, Okay, what's sufficiently like
TikTok to give us concerns. It's also not enough in
this country in my view, that a company be based
(27:23):
or tied back to China alone for us to take
some sort of action against them, And my view, we
always have to look for plus factors of a lack
of trustworthiness before we do that. That threshold, clearly, in
my view, has been met with respect to TikTok.
Speaker 1 (27:40):
Let's go to Malcolm who is in Belleville, Michigan. Malcolm,
welcome to the middle. Go ahead. What do you think
should TikTok be banned?
Speaker 17 (27:48):
All right?
Speaker 18 (27:49):
So my opinion at TikTok, I'm somebody who just TikTok
every single day. I am the social media guy at
the job I currently work at US Better Brands, Better Image.
Speaker 17 (27:59):
Personally, I believe.
Speaker 18 (28:01):
That TikTok and farmful for younger children. There's content farms
out there, people that make deliberately excessive content, very loud,
in your face, short form content generated to get kids
to watch video after video. I personally see a bulk
of my issues TikTok coming with that. I don't necessarily
believe in a nationwide ban. I believe there should be
(28:21):
better age restrictions if.
Speaker 17 (28:22):
It comes to ticktime, Okay, I.
Speaker 18 (28:24):
Believe that if you are between eight to twelve, or
at least up to twelve.
Speaker 1 (28:28):
You should have me at time, Malcolm, thank you. Let
me take that to Emily briefly. Emily, what do you
think about that an age restriction?
Speaker 8 (28:36):
There actually is an age restriction already, and if you're
a kid under thirteen, you should not be using the
regular version of TikTok.
Speaker 11 (28:48):
That's a better law.
Speaker 8 (28:50):
There are TikTok and other apps have created special kids experiences.
Speaker 7 (28:57):
I'm not a.
Speaker 8 (28:57):
Parent in my life right now, and so I hesitate
to tell other folks how to parent. But I'll tell
you that, as a millennial who grew up, you know,
running around outside, I never got into TikTok because I
couldn't stand auto play videos like blaring music.
Speaker 1 (29:15):
Yeah, I don't like that, and I just wanted Andrews
want to be outside. That's also nice, you know, Tolliver.
According to Hugh, six and ten Americans see TikTok as
a threat to national security. But it is seven and
ten Republicans and only five and ten Democrats seeing them.
Speaker 2 (29:31):
That's what I call my partisanship. Let's go for the record.
TikTok does say that they don't give any data about
users to the Chinese government. Their CEO. Shoes Chow said
as much during a hearing on Capitol Hill last year.
Speaker 19 (29:43):
I have seen no evidence that the Chinese government has
access to that data. They have never asked us, we
have not provided. I've asked that that.
Speaker 9 (29:51):
I find that actually preposterous.
Speaker 19 (29:54):
I have looked in I have seen no evidence of
this happening. And in order to assure everybody here and all,
I'll use us aible commitment is to move Datata into
the United States to be stored on American soil by
an American company, overseen by American personnel.
Speaker 2 (30:09):
Ooh spicy that voice calling mister shoes testimony in the
question was Congresswoman Anna Eshue, a Democrat from California.
Speaker 1 (30:17):
And by the way, did you know that you can
make a contribution in any amount to the Middle through
our partnership with Journalism Funding Partners. It's tax deductible. You
could do it at Listen to the Middle dot com.
Help us get out on the road as we head
into the election, help us grow. That is listened to
the Middle dot com. We'll be right back with more
of this. This is the Middle. I'm Jeremy Hobson. We're
(30:39):
talking about the Chinese owned video app TikTok. Is it
a threat to national security? And should it be fully
banned in the United States? What do you think? Call
us at eight four four four Middle that's eight four
four four six four three three five three. You can
also reach out to us at listen toothemiddle dot com.
Our guests are Emily Baker, whiteechnology reporter for Forbes, and
(31:01):
Brendan Carr, a commissioner with the FCC. Before we go
back to the phones, I want to just ask you, Emily,
do you think that the possible mental health impacts that
TikTok has on its users, especially young ones, is any
worse than any other social media app.
Speaker 8 (31:18):
I don't think it's different in kind. You see the
same sorts of problems. You see eating disorder content, you
see self harm content, you see graphic violence on all
of these platforms. One could make it argument that more
kids are on TikTok these days than are on an
Instagram ras now for whatever, and so it's more problematic
for that reason. But I think the genres of harms
(31:43):
are seen across the social media apps, and the fact
that nobody has been able to fully fix them is
a testament to the fact that either in order to
get it all, these companies are going to have to
take down a bunch of content that's actually also fine,
or in order to not overenforce, they're going to leave
up content that they should be taking down.
Speaker 1 (32:04):
Let's go to another call. Cole is calling from the
Chicago area. Cole, what do you think should TikTok be banned?
Speaker 15 (32:11):
Hi?
Speaker 20 (32:12):
I as a TikTok user, I'm a little bit biased.
I really enjoy it. But to the same point that
I feel like or that people say that it has
an outsized foreign message in terms of politics or you know,
pertaining especially to the Israel and Hamas war. I do
feel like TikTok is actually one of the few media
(32:34):
outlets or media sources that the the atrocities of the
Israeli government are kind of truly being shown in ways
that they aren't in on legacy media.
Speaker 15 (32:46):
Yeah, you like.
Speaker 1 (32:47):
When TikTok is bringing to the news on that.
Speaker 3 (32:49):
Front, I do.
Speaker 16 (32:50):
I do.
Speaker 20 (32:51):
I feel like it's not bound to the same rules
and you know, lobbying and influence from you know that
from Israel that. Yeah, so I feel like there's a
little bit more in may be a little more bias
on that side, but I feel like it's an extremely
important counterbalance to what I would say is the overwhelming
Israeli line on what's going on there.
Speaker 1 (33:13):
Cole, thank you for that call. Commissioner Carr. Let me
ask you about that. You know a lot of people
were very angry about what TikTok was bringing forward, especially
at the beginning part of the Israel Hamas conflict. And
you know, there was a letter to Osama bit from
Osama bin Laden from around nine to eleven time that
(33:34):
was brought forward and that was a big issue. But
what do you think about TikTok's impact on the news
that people get.
Speaker 10 (33:41):
Well, look, I believe in you know, a diversity of
opinion and allowing people to get viewpoints from all over
the place.
Speaker 9 (33:46):
So again, Mike, yep, we.
Speaker 1 (33:48):
Lost the commissioner there. This is live radio, folks. Okay,
let's go to another call while we try to get
him back. I really want to hear what he has
to say there. Let's get to Gabriel in Minneapolis, Minnesota. Gabriel,
what do you think should TikTok be banned?
Speaker 17 (34:02):
No, I don't think it should be banned. I think
it's the right tool for the right job sort of situation. Essentially,
when you know people curs, if you like certain hashtags
that are population you know, things out there that children
the guardians of them kind of like protg them. You know,
(34:23):
we should have banned pase throes and candies. It's comes
up to.
Speaker 1 (34:27):
It's up to the consumer, and we've got we've got
the commissioner back by the way, Commissioner, I wonder if
we have to give you an FCC violation for dropping
off the show.
Speaker 15 (34:36):
Yeah, I don't know.
Speaker 9 (34:37):
My connection is going unstable.
Speaker 10 (34:39):
So if you if you know anybody, yeah that knows
a lot about telecom, I give you some help over here.
You know one thing I heard earlier, you know, we
had the CEO of a TikTok on that you mentioned.
Maybe it will be the case that they've never handed
data directly to the government of China, but they don't
have to. The reporting has shown and Emily has shown
that the data on US user is accessed by ByteDance
(35:01):
employees in Beijing, which employees are themselves members of the CCPs.
Once they access that data, it can be transferred and
handed over to the CCP immediately. So we've never heard
the TikTok CEO say is that members of the CCP
in Beijing have never accessed US user data. So I
think that's an important sort of point. We the exact wording,
(35:22):
careful wording that the CEO always uses.
Speaker 8 (35:25):
Emily, Yeah, I think when we're talking about whether people
have accessed data, right, there are a lot of ways
that people could access data.
Speaker 11 (35:33):
And I think when TikTok makes statements on.
Speaker 8 (35:37):
The record and they want to make sure that they're
being precise, they can say with the company didn't hand
over this data. I think any company would be worried
about promising that their data had never been accessed by
a group as large.
Speaker 11 (35:51):
As the Chinese Communist Party.
Speaker 8 (35:53):
I mean, we even saw a few years ago Twitter
was infiltrated by several government agents of a foreign government,
and this happens. Foreign governments do try to infiltrate these companies.
They do try to get information about dissidence in their
countries and whatnot. And especially given that TikTok has so
(36:13):
many employees in China, if I worked there and I
were trying to make sure that the data pipelines were clean,
I would be just really worried about there are so
many people, and any one of them could sort of
face a hack, could face It's not necessarily that they're
trying to do anything wrong, but these companies are big
(36:35):
and data gets around.
Speaker 1 (36:36):
Daisy is with us from Bellevue, Idaho. Daisy, what do
you think should TikTok be banned?
Speaker 7 (36:43):
I'm a sixty seven year old conservative woman, fiscally conservative,
although I do find myself centrist on social issues. I
do not believe that TikTok should be banned. I believe
that the control TikTok, in terms of who's us it
should be parental, absolutely, and there might be a way
(37:08):
to make communities be able to block it from the
people in it, but ultimately it comes from parental. The
government has no business blocking anything that's information.
Speaker 1 (37:22):
Daisy, what about the national security concerns? Do you worry
about that at all, that because it's owned by China,
that they could be looking at data that that could
be used in some way against the United States.
Speaker 7 (37:34):
I do, but I don't believe that the information it
should be blocked. I don't believe that any information should
be ben Now, if we're at war, then I think
that any kind of media would be able to, you know,
pass information back and forth using whatever is available, however,
(37:57):
just for us to get along. I really believe that
if information is out there, entertainment, whatever the eye, you know,
I'm the beholder. It's parents duty to protect their children,
and then it's the duty unless we want a global
kind of standard of morals and decency, which I don't
(38:22):
think is possible.
Speaker 2 (38:23):
I did have a question for Emily. I've been dyna asked,
so I know you obviously you have a very specific
experience for this because you were spied on. I think
for a lot of lay people, when I hear like, oh,
TikTok is going to have my data, or like you know,
ccpeople have my data, I don't think anything of it
because I'm like, oh, what are they going to do
with it? What's sort of the worst case scenario?
Speaker 8 (38:41):
So I mean, for me, the worst case scenario is
actually like what they were trying to do, which is
figure out who my sources are. And as a journalist,
you really do everything in your power to try to
keep the people from talking to you safe. But I
think you raise a great point, which is like if
the Chinese government gets your data, so what And I
think a really for some people, for Chinese dissidents living abroad,
(39:05):
that's so what could be really important for a lot
of other people. They could be like, Okay, they can
have my dance videos.
Speaker 6 (39:09):
I don't care.
Speaker 8 (39:10):
And I think one thing that we need to talk
about is how easy it is for the Chinese government
or any government to get this data in other ways.
If the Chinese government really wants my IP address, I
hate to tell you, they can buy it from a
data broker, and that's not even illegal in the United States.
And so especially when it comes to these data flows.
Data flows a lot of places, a lot of ways,
(39:30):
and TikTok is not the only way that the Chinese
government or any bad actor could get information about us.
Speaker 1 (39:37):
Let's go to Ben, who is in Jacksonville, Alabama. Ben,
welcome to the middle. What do you think.
Speaker 21 (39:43):
I do think that we would have to as inclusion
ban TikTok, But I think it's because of a deeper
philosophic reason, and that's because we engage with premium speech
because of liberalism. You know, if we want to choose
John Stewart mill or we want to look at John
Locke or liberal figure that we want to base this
off of the general ideas we share information in the
(40:04):
advancement of reason to be a better understanding of nature
and of us within nature. The Chinese government and the
Chinese state is not based off of that. It's based
off of a different political philosophy, a philosophy of historicism
and a philosophy of Marxism.
Speaker 1 (40:22):
Are you a professor? Are you a professor?
Speaker 17 (40:24):
Are you?
Speaker 1 (40:24):
Are you a philosophy for yourself?
Speaker 21 (40:26):
Okay, I'm not. No, I'm no philosopher, but I am,
and I think I have a professor. And again, I
just think it's there's a there's a different Again, if
if you have different philosophic understandings of what a human
being is and what nature is. Uh, those things do
end up mattering.
Speaker 1 (40:47):
Okay, Ben, thank you, Commissioner Carr.
Speaker 10 (40:50):
I think look, if this was surely a question of
content in a propaganda it would be an interesting question.
Speaker 11 (40:58):
But it's not.
Speaker 10 (40:59):
And this is a case where and we have this
conduct of people really not understanding the amount, the massive
amount of data that's being collected when you're on TikTok Again,
it's search and browsing, history, keystroke patterns, biometrics. According to
their terms of service. You know, here in the US,
we also have a whole regime legally at the FCC
that we apply to anyone that wants to obtain a
broadcast license to own a radio station or a TV station,
(41:22):
And as part of that, we run a national security
review and we look at your trustworthiness. So I don't
think that TikTok, if they wanted to buy a radio station,
for instance, could pass the trustworthiness review that we apply
at the FCC. And we're talking about a radio station
that could mean you know, ten thousand people, let alone
now an application that has hundreds of millions of people
(41:43):
on it. So there's a bit of an asymmetry there
as well. But again, I think we can fully do
this consistent with our own cultural embrace a free expression
because of the conduct that is taking place here.
Speaker 1 (41:55):
Let me get to another call here. Jeff is in Lincoln, Nebraska. Jeff,
what do you think should TikTok be banned?
Speaker 22 (42:01):
No, I assure you not. I am fifty five years old,
and I'm really kind of but I think banning TikTok
is not the right way to go about this, just
(42:21):
because it kind of goes back to you don't want
me to tell you what to do. I don't want
you to tell me what to do kind of thing
in a way, but I believe that there needs to
be some sort of regulation on it. I agree with that,
(42:41):
But there's so much education on it, and I have
learned so many things in the last year, and it is.
Speaker 15 (42:57):
Driving me.
Speaker 22 (42:59):
It's going to help me start my own business.
Speaker 1 (43:02):
Doing what And.
Speaker 22 (43:05):
I'm a handyman, and I'll see all kinds of craftsmen
on here all the time, you know, And and it's
it goes to what you're interested in. Yeah, you can
find all kinds of things on there, but it really
stays kind of focused on what you're interested in and
(43:26):
things you like to see, you know. And it also
goes back to self control too, you know. You know,
I'm not a sun tanner. You know, I don't go
to sun tanning beds and things like that. But I'm
not going to tell somebody they.
Speaker 1 (43:43):
Can't want to write right. Personal freedom there, Jeff, thank
you so much for that call. Emily. Let me let
me go back to you on that, you know, I
just let me just ask you, as we've heard all
these calls this hour, anything surprise you about what people
are bringing.
Speaker 8 (43:58):
Up Emily, I would actually say, no, TikTok is so
big and so much of a sort of part of
the fabric of our society. There are going to be
niches for pretty much everybody.
Speaker 11 (44:09):
There's the Sun's.
Speaker 8 (44:10):
Handing community there, the handyman community there, the people who
like fluffy cats drinking milk out of square cups. Like,
there's so much. There is something for everyone. But I
think the fact that there is something for everyone. One
thing that I would really like to see more and
that would make me feel much more comfortable about the
(44:32):
app is more transparency about what people actually are seeing
on TikTok, because right now, because it's personalized to everybody,
I don't know what the most popular ten videos on
the app are today. I don't know what they were yesterday.
I don't know what they were the day before. I
can't look that up. And if there were mandatory transparency
(44:52):
for companies, we will be able to see what TikTok
is actually showing to the most people, right, Commissioner car Yeah,
I think.
Speaker 10 (45:00):
That's a interesting point because a lot of parents, for instance,
they think of TikTok probably the way they thought about Facebook,
which is it's a community of your friends in people
you know. But TikTok is very different.
Speaker 9 (45:10):
As soon as you sign up.
Speaker 10 (45:11):
You are immediately being fed content dictated by the algorithm itself.
So I think that's one feature that makes it very,
very different. And again I think we see a lot
of bipartisanship on this. In fact, it's you know, Democrat
Senator Mark Warner who's the chair of the Senate Intel Committee,
who's been a real leader on this, as well as
(45:32):
you know Krista Morphy, Congressman, Democrat from Illinois.
Speaker 9 (45:37):
So it's a real interesting bipartisan issue in DC.
Speaker 1 (45:40):
And it was a President Trump, former President Trump, who
was saying that he wanted to ban it when he
was an officer, though he never did. I just want
to get one little listener comment in Laura and Kansas
City says, why are we so worried about TikTok being
owned by China. Fox News is owned and run by
the Murdoch family, who's from Australia. Arguably this station has
influenced the views of millions of Americans. Twitter slash Ax
is owned by man from South Africa, although he is American,
(46:02):
and I bet I don't know for sure but I
bet Rupert Murdock is an American citizen at this point too,
at least a duel. Let's go to a quiz, Tolliver.
Speaker 2 (46:10):
Yes, I'm in Nashville. Every time i'm here, they give
me National Public Radio socks. So whoever wins this quiz,
you're getting some socks. Okay, it's a multiple choice one.
The US has the biggest TikTok audience, with one hundred
and fifty million active users. Which country has the second
biggest TikTok audience? China, France, Indonesia, or Brazil.
Speaker 1 (46:29):
Guests to either one of you.
Speaker 10 (46:33):
Not China because it's not available there, so I don't know,
maybe maybe Brazil.
Speaker 11 (46:39):
Emily, so I would go with Brazil.
Speaker 2 (46:41):
Also, it's Indonesia, Okay, like one hundred and twenty five
million years, I know, shocking.
Speaker 1 (46:47):
I'm not trying to try one hundred and fifty million
in the US.
Speaker 17 (46:49):
Right.
Speaker 1 (46:50):
Well, let's say thank you to our guest, Brendan Carr,
commissioner at the FCC, thank you so much for joining us.
Speaker 10 (46:57):
Good to be with you, thanks so much.
Speaker 1 (46:58):
And Emily Baker, White, technology reporter for Forbes, thank you,
thank you, and Tolliver next week the Supreme Court is
going to hear oral arguments about whether former President Trump
can be kept off the ballot because of the Fourteenth
Amendment to the Constitution.
Speaker 2 (47:11):
Yeah, it's a big question with huge implications, obviously, and
we want to hear from you. Do you think Trump
should be allowed on the ballot this fall? You can
call us at eight four to four four six four
three three five three or write in at Listen to
the Middle dot com. While you're there, sign up for
our weekly newsletter.
Speaker 1 (47:26):
Come on, and don't forget to sign up for our
podcast because that special bonus podcast about China is coming
out in just a few days. The Middle is brought
to you by Long Nook Media, distributed by Illinois Public
Media in Urbana, Illinois, and produced by Joanne Jennings, Harrison Fatino,
John Barth, and Danny Alexander. Our technical director is Jason Croft.
Our theme music was composed by Andrew Haig. Thanks to
(47:47):
Nashville Public Radio for hosting Tolliver in their studio this
week in exchange for apparently a key line pie, and
thanks to iHeartMedia and the more than four hundred public
radio stations that are making it possible for people across
the country to listen to the Middle. I'm Jeremy Hobson.
Talk to you next week.
Welcome to the Middle. I'm Jeremy Hobson along with Tolliver
as always. Who is in Nashville this week? Tolliver, how's
it going.
Speaker 2 (00:13):
It's going great. You know, I never knew Nashville had
winter until I got here, but now I absolutely do.
It was ten degrees last week.
Speaker 1 (00:19):
Well, that's why you've got to get inside one of
those honky tonks on Broadway and watch the music. Tal's
that's why they're there at your point, Well, we have
some new listeners to announce this week on South Carolina
Public Radio across the state of South Carolina. Very good
timing because we are just a few weeks away from
that state's Republican presidential primary, which we will get to
on another episode. This hour, we're talking about TikTok, which
(00:43):
is a topic that I know Tolliver is very near
and dear to your heart.
Speaker 2 (00:47):
I'm already laughing. Listen, forty eight percent of my day
is spent on TikTok. It's insane. It's taken everything from
me JAA.
Speaker 1 (00:53):
Well, that's why we can do a longer Middle so
you can have less time on TikTok. But because TikTok
is Chinese owned. There's a lot of fear about what
the company might do with Americans data, so much so
that you cannot have TikTok on any federal devices in
this country, in the military, or on official devices in
most states. But of course the applemain's legal for the
general public for now. So we're asking you should TikTok
(01:17):
be banned in the United States. Our number is eight
four to four four middle. That's eight four four four
six four three three five three. We'll get to your
calls in a moment, but first, last week, we asked
you to weigh in on a contentious issue in education.
Should parents be allowed to use public funds to send
their kids to a school of their choice, including private schools.
We've got a lot of voicemails after the show. Here
(01:38):
are some.
Speaker 3 (01:39):
Hi.
Speaker 4 (01:40):
My name's Jen, I'm calling from Beverly Hills, Michigan.
Speaker 5 (01:43):
My name is Woodrow. I am calling from so in Indiana.
Speaker 6 (01:46):
HI. This is Francis. I have worked both in private
schools and in public schools, and I feel that a
child should be able to go to whatever system works
for them.
Speaker 7 (01:57):
I used to be against this idea.
Speaker 4 (02:00):
I didn't want my taxpayer dollars going to religious institutions. However,
now that I have a child who needs special education services,
the school district that I'm in is not able to
provide those, and I am forced to send my child
to a private school.
Speaker 5 (02:14):
Public education must not be defunded for any reason, least
of all because parents may want to send their children
to a luxury private school or religious academy on the
backs of the public school funding.
Speaker 1 (02:24):
A lot of great calls, thanks to everyone who called in,
so this hour we are asking should TikTok be banned
in the United States, not just because of the issues
that came up on Capitol Hill this week involving all
the social media platforms and the harm that they're causing
young people, but because of national security as well. Let's
meet our panel. Emily Baker White is a technology reporter
for Forbes.
Speaker 8 (02:44):
Emily welcome, Thanks so much for having me.
Speaker 1 (02:47):
And Brendan Carr is a commissioner with the Federal Communications
Commission the FCC. Brendan Carr, welcome to you.
Speaker 9 (02:53):
So good to be with you. Thanks so much.
Speaker 1 (02:55):
And you were appointed by both President Trump and President
Biden to the FCC. See you've been very vocal in
your opposition to TikTok and you are calling for a
total ban.
Speaker 9 (03:05):
Why yeah.
Speaker 10 (03:06):
I think there's two main issues with TikTok as a
threshold matter. As you noted, it is an immensely popular
application with millions and millions of Americans, but there's two
real issues with it. One is surveillance and the second
is foreign influence. And we'll have time to go through
both of those. But if you back up and think
about the life cycle of this issue. Back in twenty nineteen,
(03:28):
twenty twenty, the Trump administration took a run at banning TikTok,
and it didn't succeed through the courts. An issue largely
went dormant for a couple of years, and TikTok was
representing during that period of time that very little or
in some cases they would say effectively no data is
getting back inside of China, so Americans shouldn't be concerned.
And that's when Emily actually broke the story wide open
(03:50):
about eighteen months ago and got leaked internal TikTok communications
that showed, quote, everything is seen in China and this
isn't just seeing the you know, cat videos that you upload.
It's search and browsing history. Keystroke patterns according to TikTok's
terms of service, potentially biometrics, and so that really changed
the nature and tenor of the debate. Over the last
(04:12):
eighteen months. It's been a real live debate at the
federal level. Should we ban TikTok or not. I think
we should based on the national security threat, But in
the spirit of the middle there is a compromise here
as well, which is I think actually the right policy
answer is to require the divestiture of TikTok from ByteDance,
(04:32):
a company that they claim, I believe is based in
the Caymans, But all the reporting that we've seen and
shows us that as an entity that is ultimately beholden
to the CCP, has major operations in Beijing, has many
many members of the CCP that are employed there, in
fact as internal CCP committees within it. And so if
(04:53):
we go that route, people can continue to get the
cat videos that they love, but we could just be
in a much more secure environment by breaking that tie
back to the CCP.
Speaker 1 (05:02):
Let me just ask you one question, because the FCC,
your organization, did ban new sales of telecom equipment from
the Chinese company Huawei in twenty twenty two, another Chinese
company that had raised national security fears. Does the FCC
have the authority to ban TikTok or who does in
the United States?
Speaker 9 (05:20):
Yeah, it wouldn't be the FACY per se.
Speaker 10 (05:22):
The reason I speak about it is because it is
relevant to our expertise. As you noted, we've taken action
at the FCC and what we call the device layer,
so we've addressed Huawei zte those types of devices that
we effectively found were spyware, and we've been.
Speaker 9 (05:34):
Working to get that out of our networks.
Speaker 10 (05:36):
We've also taken action at we call the carrier level,
so entities like China Mobile, China Telecom, we've blocked them
from connecting to our networks based on concerns TikTok is
at the application layer that in the main could be
taken by the Federal Trade Commission, where really the main
focus of activity has been a committee that's actually run
out of Treasury called SCIPIUS, the Committee on Foreign Investment
(05:58):
in the US. That's the one that, through both Trump
and Biden, has been looking the most closely at the
national security threats from TikTok, and frankly, has not over
multiple years now been able to reach the conclusion to bless.
Speaker 9 (06:12):
Their continued operation.
Speaker 10 (06:13):
But while that review is ongoing, TikTok is allowed to
continue to operate in the US. So either the FTC
or Treasury recipius, but also Congress obviously can step in
with legislation, and frankly, I think that's what needs to
happen very quickly here.
Speaker 1 (06:27):
Yeah, if they wanted to make that move, which would
probably be politically kind of difficult, which we'll get to.
Emily Baker White, the Commissioner brought you up there. There
is a criminal case against byte Dance, which is TikTok's
parent company, for using the app to spy on journalists
who were covering the company. They've admitted to doing so,
and you were one of the journalists who was spied on.
How did they do that and why did they do that?
Speaker 8 (06:50):
So, as Commissioner Carr mentioned, I started covering TikTok a
couple of years ago, and as Commissioner car said, I
became sort of the go to TikTok quarter a few
years ago after breaking the story of an internal TikTok
project called Project Texas, and Project Texas with TikTok sort
of big bet to try to separate the access to
(07:12):
US user data from their parent company by Dance, and
I found out that they were trying to do this
because all of that US user data was accessible to
a lot of people in China. And that's troubling because
China has a national security law that requires Chinese nationals,
like regular people and companies in China to turn over
(07:34):
really any information that the government asked them for. And
so what TikTok and its parent company by Dance, we're
trying to do is protect their people in China, who
if the government shows up and says, you have to
give me the data, they can't reasonably ask their employees
to break the law.
Speaker 11 (07:51):
But they didn't.
Speaker 8 (07:52):
They they want to sort of, you know, put a
big sign up like the taxis that say you know,
driver carries no money, right, we don't have can can't
access it. So the employees in trying to can't be
in trouble if they can't access the data in the
first The problem is there are a lot of ways
that TikTok and by Dance have been for years exchanging data,
(08:13):
not necessarily in a nefarious way, but it's just the
way the tool was built.
Speaker 11 (08:17):
And so TikTok was.
Speaker 8 (08:18):
Trying really hard to separate its systems from ByteDance, but
there was still a lot of cross pollination of data happening.
Speaker 11 (08:28):
So I broke that story.
Speaker 8 (08:30):
And then coming from nervous about my breaking that story,
and they wanted to stop weeks to me and to
other journalists, and so they started investigating the leaks, trying
to figure out who was talking to me. And one
of the ways they wanted to do that was they
went and looked on my TikTok account at my IP address,
(08:51):
which gave an approximation of where I was, and then
they compared that location data, that IP based location data
to the IP based locate data of all of TikTok
and Bye Dances employees. And the theory was if I
was in a cafe or a library or a park
and a TikTok or byt Dance employee was in the
same place at the same time, maybe that meant that person.
Speaker 12 (09:11):
Was LEA wow.
Speaker 6 (09:12):
Wow.
Speaker 1 (09:13):
Well, now that we've sufficiently scared the audience, let's get
to one of our callers. Madison is joining us from Austin, Texas. Madison,
what do you think should TikTok be banned.
Speaker 13 (09:24):
Hello, No, I don't think TikTok should be banned, and
I'm very passionate about that, just because of the benefits
I've seen. Of course, everything has negatives, but at the
end of the day, there's so much good in TikTok
and the ability to reach others. I myself even started
a business thanks to TikTok, and so many people have
spoken firsthand just saying how following content and even my
(09:45):
content has inspired them to have confidence and start working out.
You hear these stories all the time about people sharing
videos and their life being changed for the better. So no,
it shouldn't be fun.
Speaker 1 (09:55):
Just briefly, how did you start a business thanks to TikTok?
Speaker 13 (09:59):
I started by post seeing workouts. It's my passion fitness
and health, and shortly after the more people that started
coming in, I decided that I wanted to get certified,
and so after my certification, I then created a whole
business from it and I now train people online.
Speaker 1 (10:15):
Madison, thank you so much for that call. Emily Baker
White your response to that, A lot of people have
started businesses. They're doing commercials about it all the time
from TikTok.
Speaker 8 (10:23):
Now, yeah, I mean One of the one of the
trickiest things about TikTok is that it's huge. There are many,
many millions of Americans and people all around the world
who use this app to communicate, to transact business, to
live their lives, right to engage in really critical discourse.
Speaker 11 (10:43):
And nobody wants to see that shut down. And so
if you believe that there.
Speaker 8 (10:49):
Are national security risks posed by TikTok, that it could
be used, like Commissioner car said, either to sort of
a mass data that is sense it been private information
about us that could fall into the wrong hands, or
that it could be used to sort of influence what
we see right, then the question is how can you
address those concerns without having to stop people like Madison
(11:15):
from being able to have a business.
Speaker 1 (11:16):
And we're going to get to that. But Tolliver, I
will say, I use TikTok only for one reason, which
is to post TikTok's on the middle account. But I
know you feel very differently.
Speaker 2 (11:25):
No, it's my baby. I'm not anywhere near as much
of a super user as like Zach King, who might
be the most popular TikToker. Here's a clip from the
most viewed video on the app two billion views. Zach
King have a little fun with a Harry Potter inspired
special effect.
Speaker 1 (11:42):
Like my costume.
Speaker 9 (11:42):
Yoh, that's so cool.
Speaker 2 (11:44):
How are you doing that?
Speaker 1 (11:45):
You've got a nimbus two thousands?
Speaker 4 (11:46):
Oh?
Speaker 12 (11:46):
I see her?
Speaker 9 (11:47):
Wait is that my longboard? LONGBOARDINGO SA.
Speaker 1 (11:53):
I have to say, I feel even more lost, Tolliver,
I have no idea what is going on in that clip.
I mean you have to look at that. You have to,
But then that means you have to get TikTok, which
means you could be spied on. So who I don't
want to recommend that, But what I would recommend is,
if you're a podcast listeners to the Middle, please go
and rate the podcast. Give us a nice five star rating,
and we would love to hear from you about what
you think. We'll be right back with more of the middle.
(12:17):
This is the Middle. I'm Jeremy Hobson. If you're just tuning,
in the Middle is a national call and show. We're
focused on elevating voices from the middle geographically, politically and philosophically,
or maybe you just want to meet in the middle.
This hour, we're asking should TikTok, the popular social media
video app be fully banned in the United States. Tolliver,
what is our number?
Speaker 2 (12:37):
It's eight four four four Middle. That's eight four four
four six four three three five three. You can also
write to us at Listen to the Middle dot com
or on social media.
Speaker 1 (12:46):
I'm joined by Emily Baker, White, technology reporter for Forbes,
and Brendan Carr, commissioner with the FCC. And before we
get back to the phones' commissioner car there are, as
we said, politicians on both sides of the political spectrum
who have called for a band, But it does seem
like it's an easy thing to say that you want,
but they haven't actually done it. It would be pretty unpopular,
wouldn't that there are one hundred and fifty million users
(13:07):
in the US.
Speaker 10 (13:09):
Yeah, this is one issue that is particularly interesting to me.
You know, there's some discussion in washing DC that says
that the national security officials, Republicans Democrats, including those in
the Biden administration, have been very clear about sounding the
alarm about a very real threat that comes from TikTok
It's data collection and again.
Speaker 9 (13:28):
The foreign influence.
Speaker 10 (13:30):
But we've been hearing that there has been some pushback
from political considerations that to your point, it would be unpopular,
and that that is what so far has been keeping
the app alive. And again, I think it's important that
we focus on, you know, the real national security threat.
But if we do go the route of divestiture again
just breaking that link back to the CCP, that I
(13:50):
think that potential could address all those concerns because it
allows the app to continue to operate. But it is
important to remember what those threats are because at this point,
you know, TikTok has a history of malign condom that
is longer than a CBS proceed If you go back
to that spying on Emily for instance, you know, when
it was first reported by her that someone was being
spied on, it didn't disclose initially that it was her.
(14:12):
TikTok came out and said that that story lacked journalistic integrity.
And again when they were caught having data go back
to China, they you know, initially denied that as well.
And so there's a history here both of malign conduct
and attempting to cover it up. And the foreign influence
side is really interesting. You know, before our twenty twenty
two midterm elections, the CCP state media was setting up
(14:34):
TikTok accounts and targeting select US politicians for criticism ahead
of the election. And there's also been a lot of
studies that have shown through various points in time that
the censorship on TikTok has a very pro CCP bent,
whether it has to do with Weiger genocide or Hong
Kong protests or Tienemn Square, And in fact, recently since
(14:57):
October seventh in Israel, there's been a lot of studies
that show that the pro Palestine or pro Hamas content
more particularly has been getting outsized play on TikTok compared
to Israeli content.
Speaker 1 (15:10):
Let's get to some calls. Veronica is with us from Detroit, Michigan. Veronica,
what do you think should TikTok be banned?
Speaker 14 (15:19):
Absolutely? It kind of bothers me. There's even a debate
about it. There's so many other countries that have already
outlawed it. It seems like they didn't do it lightly.
We should listen and learn. And our countries under constant
cyber attacks and disinformation campaigns from Russia and other countries
(15:40):
trying to weaken our country. China's not really been known
to have the US's interests at heart. So especially in
this critical election year, I don't know why we would
want to put our country at greater list risk, you know,
for the sake of ament Veronica.
Speaker 1 (16:01):
Thank you. You bring up a good point at Emily
Baker White that there are other countries that have banned it,
including India, which did so back in twenty twenty.
Speaker 11 (16:12):
Yeah.
Speaker 8 (16:12):
So, India was an enormous market for TikTok. It's obviously
it's a huge country. There are a lot of people there,
There are a lot of potential ad dollars there, right,
and TikTok was really surging in the country.
Speaker 11 (16:24):
Tons of people were using it.
Speaker 8 (16:27):
And after a spot between the Indian and Chinese forces,
a sort of border dispute, India said, you know what,
we've had it and they banned a bunch of Chinese apps,
not just TikTok, but many many apps that were owned
by Chinese parent companies. And after India banned TikTok, my
(16:49):
colleague Alex Levine had had a really revealing scoop earlier
this year. TikTok didn't delete the data, they actually kept
the data and for a while they were trying to
get back into the India market, they didn't know if
there was ay to work with the Indian regulatory authorities
do some version of Project Texas what I was talking
about what they're trying to do in the US to
get back into the market, but they haven't been able
(17:11):
to do that.
Speaker 1 (17:13):
Johnny is with US from Southern Nevada. Johnny, what do
you think should TikTok be banned?
Speaker 3 (17:19):
I definitely think it should be banned, and not for
any real political reasons. I think it should be dumb
because it's kind of or it should be banned because
it's kind of dumbing down America. I see people from
the age of five to sixty five just doom scrolling
on their phones at work, at school, at home, and
(17:40):
it just kinda Also, people seem to get their news
from there lately, and I don't really agree with that
because it's like, oh I heard that on TikTok. I'm like, Okay,
I'm not going to believe that.
Speaker 1 (17:51):
You know, Well, so do you think that all of
the social media apps should be banned or just TikTok?
Speaker 3 (17:57):
Personally, I don't have any social media whatsoever, and so
I would totally love to see all social media be
banned because me being thirty seven. I've seen what it's like,
you know, being a millennial, what it's like to have
no social media. Actually, I mean we're kind of born
with the birth right the Internet and then also seeing
that the development all the way up to present day,
(18:19):
and I don't see it as good. You know, I
have two boys, young one just went to middle school,
and kids aren't knowing. They don't really know how to socialize.
Like you give them a phone there they're fine right
face to face. They can't have that personal conversation like
what we're doing right now. They wouldn't know what to do.
Speaker 1 (18:36):
Johnny, great point, Thank you, thank you for that call.
And let me go to the Commissioner car on that.
This is sort of one of the things they were
talking about on Capitol Hill this week is the effect
on children of these social media apps. But what about
that just just forget about the national security idea that
social media apps and in particular TikTok maybe is just
bad for society.
Speaker 9 (18:56):
Yeah, Britz is a really interesting point.
Speaker 10 (18:58):
You know, TikTok itself is prohibited by the CCP from
operating the app inside China. There's a sister app called
Doyan and it's very revealing when you compare the two.
So TikTok has been shown in the US to show
kids everything from eating disorder to self harm content to
body image content, whereas the sister app, Douyon, is showing
(19:20):
kids in China educational materials. Museum exhibits instructional materials. So
it's interesting to see the big difference in content between those.
And so I think that's part and parcel of the
concern that goes potentially to the nefarious control by TikTok.
Speaker 9 (19:37):
And you're right, this was live just this week.
Speaker 10 (19:40):
A lot of social media companies are out there, and look,
there are some baseline concerns I have with every social
media company in terms of privacy and data protection, but
I do think there is something unique about TikTok, both
in terms of what we've seen with our own experience
with it, but also those ties back to the CCP
and then again the surveillance law that Emily mentioned as well, Yeah,
go ahead, Emily, go yeah.
Speaker 8 (20:02):
I just I think just to give in what we
saw this week at the hearing. Obviously, there are a
lot of problems sort of across the industry with with
social media companies being able to moderate content at scale.
Speaker 11 (20:14):
It's really hard. But on the point sort.
Speaker 8 (20:16):
Of differentiating the US from China, we don't have a
great firewall here, and.
Speaker 11 (20:23):
We don't ban speech we don't like.
Speaker 4 (20:25):
Uh.
Speaker 8 (20:25):
There's a lot of speech that's that's not great, right. Uh,
there's a lot of speech that's really troubling. But the
sort of theory in the US has been propagandists.
Speaker 11 (20:35):
You can say what you want. Everybody gets a voice here.
Speaker 8 (20:38):
But but we believe that sort of letting everybody speak,
even when we don't like their speech, is the best
way for people to ultimately get the truth. And so
when we talk about banning social media apps because they're
full of a lot of drivell, if we banned all
the drivell, we'd have to ban a lot of stuff.
And so I think it's it's just worth thinking about
whether there is a more targeted approach, whether there's a
(20:59):
scalp instead of a hammer.
Speaker 1 (21:02):
Well, and there's also the question of whether the Supreme
Court would even allow a band because of First Amendment issues.
Let's get to another call here. John is with us
from Harvard Illinois. John, welcome to the middle. What do
you think should TikTok be banned.
Speaker 15 (21:18):
I don't think it should be banned, but your commissioner
stole my thunder there. I was going to say, people
need to go to China and see what TikTok is there.
It's purely educational. It's only available from ten AM to
ten pm, and after that it shuts off, so the
kids are kicked off. If they wanted to run TikTok
(21:41):
in the United States like that, it would be fine.
Speaker 1 (21:44):
John, Thank you, commissioner. Would it be possible do you
think to have a situation in this country. I mean,
we have multiple time zones. I don't know if you
could say ten pm, but it would be possible to
do something like that with the TikTok in this country.
Speaker 10 (21:58):
I think in the main again, if we can get
to sort of breaking that tie back to the CCP,
a lot of these other concerns I have wouldn't be
as strong. We do have some time zone issues obviously,
as you know, sort of on broadcast TV, there's certain
things you can't say except for between ten pm and
six AMS. We do have those rules, and even though
it does wash over different time zones. You raise an
nentering question too, though about the first Amendment, and that's
(22:20):
one that I feel very strongly about, given that, you know,
part of our job here at the FCC is to
promote or at least not inhibit, a diversity of views.
And the first moment analysis here for TikTok is actually
pretty straightforward. The first moment caselaw draws a distinction between
government action based on content of what's being disseminated versus
the conduct on the other hand. So, for instance, there's
(22:41):
this lead Supreme Court case had to do with a
bookstore sort of quintessential First Amendment activity place, and they
were running actually a prostitution ring out of the bookstore,
and the government came in and shut the bookstore down
as a result, and the owner said, you can't shut
down a bookstore that's you know, where First Amendment activity
takes place, and they raised a First Amendment defense, and
the Supreme Court said, this isn't even a First Midment
case at all, because we're taking action based on the
(23:03):
illegal conduct that was taking place in it. And I
think it's the same thing with TikTok. There is obviously
the argument that Americans have a right to choose to
receive or in propaganda, but the way I think about
it too, is you know, you could take a pen
and you can write the most you know, nefarious propaganda
against America that you want. But the moment you take
that same pen and pick a lock with it, well,
(23:24):
that conduct is something that we can take action on.
And it's no defense to say that I was writing
negative things about America beforehand.
Speaker 9 (23:31):
So I think that clear.
Speaker 10 (23:32):
Distinction between conduct and content in TikTok's conduct here with
respect to these data flows give the government a clear
opportunity to take action without violating the First Amendment.
Speaker 1 (23:43):
Tolliver, I hee, Tlliver, Hey, what's that goond Emily, because
we have to give Tolliver our TikTok expert and on
the crew here just opportunity. What are your thoughts here,
Tolliver is so far?
Speaker 2 (23:54):
No, I was good because you know, our caller earlier
said that she started a business on TikTok, and I
just kind of wonder what Commissioner car are you, Emily
withoud have to say to you know, people who are like,
what do you think we would have a serious deleterious
effect on the economy if we got rid of this absently? Emily,
I think that's a big concern for a lot of
do for.
Speaker 8 (24:08):
Me, and you know, I think it would have a
big and deleterious effect on lots of parts.
Speaker 11 (24:15):
Of the economy.
Speaker 8 (24:16):
I think people who think we should ban it think
that means it's more urgent that we ban it. So
I think that argument cuts both ways. But but but
but to your point and and to the color earlier
who called it and said she started business on TikTok.
Speaker 11 (24:32):
Both when it comes to.
Speaker 8 (24:33):
The sort of constitutional arguments and when it comes to
the practical arguments.
Speaker 11 (24:37):
The fact is this thing is so big and.
Speaker 8 (24:39):
So critical and such an important part of our discourse
and our commerce and our culture that when we talk
about sort of taking a government action against it, I
think there are both constitutional and practical questions about what
effects we would want to see that have, and what
(25:00):
effects we wouldn't.
Speaker 1 (25:02):
We have a lot of calls. The lines are full,
so let's get to some more. Panella's Park, Florida, Erica
is joining us right now, Erica, what do you think
should TikTok be banned?
Speaker 12 (25:13):
I don't think the entire app should be banned. I
do like the idea of disconnecting it from China, But
I don't think the entire app should be banned, and
the reason why is because it's not just for entertainment.
There's a lot of educators on there that are teaching
for free during their live videos, languages, mathematics, you name it.
(25:35):
So to lose that I feel be a disservice to
a lot of students.
Speaker 1 (25:39):
Erica, thanks for that call, and let me get another
one in here. Amanda is in Pittsburgh. Amanda, what do
you think should TikTok be banned?
Speaker 16 (25:48):
Personally? Yes, I know this is such a controversial thing,
but I think TikTok should be banned because, honestly, I
think it merits a much larger discussion regarding how much
data and infra we give away and to whom we
give it. I think it's a cultural trend to give
away our data as our free currency, if you will,
(26:08):
right now. And I think we're going to look back
in ten to twenty years at this cultural norm of
giving away this personal information currently mainly for the sake
of entertainment, and I think some of us are going
to shake our heads at how much we gave way
without realizing the repercussions.
Speaker 1 (26:25):
Thank you so much, Amanda, for that call it Commissioner car.
It makes me wonder, actually, you know, if you were
to ban TikTok, couldn't another TikTok just spring up right
away and everybody would start using that instead, and that
could be headquartered in any country around the world.
Speaker 9 (26:40):
Yeah, it's possible, you know.
Speaker 10 (26:41):
To some extent, people have said, well, we shouldn't take
action on TikTok in particular, we should wait and put
sort of a broader law in place that can address
every single possible application that's like TikTok. And what I
say in response to that is that's not our experience
as a government. So for instance, again, when we took
action on Huawei the FCC, that created a precedent and
(27:02):
allowed us to go then after Zte, when we went
after China Mobile, it allowed us to go after China telecoms.
So given the track record and evidence that we have
on TikTok already, I think we should take a rifle
shot action at the federal government at TikTok and then
we can go around and see, Okay, what's sufficiently like
TikTok to give us concerns. It's also not enough in
this country in my view, that a company be based
(27:23):
or tied back to China alone for us to take
some sort of action against them, And my view, we
always have to look for plus factors of a lack
of trustworthiness before we do that. That threshold, clearly, in
my view, has been met with respect to TikTok.
Speaker 1 (27:40):
Let's go to Malcolm who is in Belleville, Michigan. Malcolm,
welcome to the middle. Go ahead. What do you think
should TikTok be banned?
Speaker 17 (27:48):
All right?
Speaker 18 (27:49):
So my opinion at TikTok, I'm somebody who just TikTok
every single day. I am the social media guy at
the job I currently work at US Better Brands, Better Image.
Speaker 17 (27:59):
Personally, I believe.
Speaker 18 (28:01):
That TikTok and farmful for younger children. There's content farms
out there, people that make deliberately excessive content, very loud,
in your face, short form content generated to get kids
to watch video after video. I personally see a bulk
of my issues TikTok coming with that. I don't necessarily
believe in a nationwide ban. I believe there should be
(28:21):
better age restrictions if.
Speaker 17 (28:22):
It comes to ticktime, Okay, I.
Speaker 18 (28:24):
Believe that if you are between eight to twelve, or
at least up to twelve.
Speaker 1 (28:28):
You should have me at time, Malcolm, thank you. Let
me take that to Emily briefly. Emily, what do you
think about that an age restriction?
Speaker 8 (28:36):
There actually is an age restriction already, and if you're
a kid under thirteen, you should not be using the
regular version of TikTok.
Speaker 11 (28:48):
That's a better law.
Speaker 8 (28:50):
There are TikTok and other apps have created special kids experiences.
Speaker 7 (28:57):
I'm not a.
Speaker 8 (28:57):
Parent in my life right now, and so I hesitate
to tell other folks how to parent. But I'll tell
you that, as a millennial who grew up, you know,
running around outside, I never got into TikTok because I
couldn't stand auto play videos like blaring music.
Speaker 1 (29:15):
Yeah, I don't like that, and I just wanted Andrews
want to be outside. That's also nice, you know, Tolliver.
According to Hugh, six and ten Americans see TikTok as
a threat to national security. But it is seven and
ten Republicans and only five and ten Democrats seeing them.
Speaker 2 (29:31):
That's what I call my partisanship. Let's go for the record.
TikTok does say that they don't give any data about
users to the Chinese government. Their CEO. Shoes Chow said
as much during a hearing on Capitol Hill last year.
Speaker 19 (29:43):
I have seen no evidence that the Chinese government has
access to that data. They have never asked us, we
have not provided. I've asked that that.
Speaker 9 (29:51):
I find that actually preposterous.
Speaker 19 (29:54):
I have looked in I have seen no evidence of
this happening. And in order to assure everybody here and all,
I'll use us aible commitment is to move Datata into
the United States to be stored on American soil by
an American company, overseen by American personnel.
Speaker 2 (30:09):
Ooh spicy that voice calling mister shoes testimony in the
question was Congresswoman Anna Eshue, a Democrat from California.
Speaker 1 (30:17):
And by the way, did you know that you can
make a contribution in any amount to the Middle through
our partnership with Journalism Funding Partners. It's tax deductible. You
could do it at Listen to the Middle dot com.
Help us get out on the road as we head
into the election, help us grow. That is listened to
the Middle dot com. We'll be right back with more
of this. This is the Middle. I'm Jeremy Hobson. We're
(30:39):
talking about the Chinese owned video app TikTok. Is it
a threat to national security? And should it be fully
banned in the United States? What do you think? Call
us at eight four four four Middle that's eight four
four four six four three three five three. You can
also reach out to us at listen toothemiddle dot com.
Our guests are Emily Baker, whiteechnology reporter for Forbes, and
(31:01):
Brendan Carr, a commissioner with the FCC. Before we go
back to the phones, I want to just ask you, Emily,
do you think that the possible mental health impacts that
TikTok has on its users, especially young ones, is any
worse than any other social media app.
Speaker 8 (31:18):
I don't think it's different in kind. You see the
same sorts of problems. You see eating disorder content, you
see self harm content, you see graphic violence on all
of these platforms. One could make it argument that more
kids are on TikTok these days than are on an
Instagram ras now for whatever, and so it's more problematic
for that reason. But I think the genres of harms
(31:43):
are seen across the social media apps, and the fact
that nobody has been able to fully fix them is
a testament to the fact that either in order to
get it all, these companies are going to have to
take down a bunch of content that's actually also fine,
or in order to not overenforce, they're going to leave
up content that they should be taking down.
Speaker 1 (32:04):
Let's go to another call. Cole is calling from the
Chicago area. Cole, what do you think should TikTok be banned?
Speaker 15 (32:11):
Hi?
Speaker 20 (32:12):
I as a TikTok user, I'm a little bit biased.
I really enjoy it. But to the same point that
I feel like or that people say that it has
an outsized foreign message in terms of politics or you know,
pertaining especially to the Israel and Hamas war. I do
feel like TikTok is actually one of the few media
(32:34):
outlets or media sources that the the atrocities of the
Israeli government are kind of truly being shown in ways
that they aren't in on legacy media.
Speaker 15 (32:46):
Yeah, you like.
Speaker 1 (32:47):
When TikTok is bringing to the news on that.
Speaker 3 (32:49):
Front, I do.
Speaker 16 (32:50):
I do.
Speaker 20 (32:51):
I feel like it's not bound to the same rules
and you know, lobbying and influence from you know that
from Israel that. Yeah, so I feel like there's a
little bit more in may be a little more bias
on that side, but I feel like it's an extremely
important counterbalance to what I would say is the overwhelming
Israeli line on what's going on there.
Speaker 1 (33:13):
Cole, thank you for that call. Commissioner Carr. Let me
ask you about that. You know a lot of people
were very angry about what TikTok was bringing forward, especially
at the beginning part of the Israel Hamas conflict. And
you know, there was a letter to Osama bit from
Osama bin Laden from around nine to eleven time that
(33:34):
was brought forward and that was a big issue. But
what do you think about TikTok's impact on the news
that people get.
Speaker 10 (33:41):
Well, look, I believe in you know, a diversity of
opinion and allowing people to get viewpoints from all over
the place.
Speaker 9 (33:46):
So again, Mike, yep, we.
Speaker 1 (33:48):
Lost the commissioner there. This is live radio, folks. Okay,
let's go to another call while we try to get
him back. I really want to hear what he has
to say there. Let's get to Gabriel in Minneapolis, Minnesota. Gabriel,
what do you think should TikTok be banned?
Speaker 17 (34:02):
No, I don't think it should be banned. I think
it's the right tool for the right job sort of situation. Essentially,
when you know people curs, if you like certain hashtags
that are population you know, things out there that children
the guardians of them kind of like protg them. You know,
(34:23):
we should have banned pase throes and candies. It's comes
up to.
Speaker 1 (34:27):
It's up to the consumer, and we've got we've got
the commissioner back by the way, Commissioner, I wonder if
we have to give you an FCC violation for dropping
off the show.
Speaker 15 (34:36):
Yeah, I don't know.
Speaker 9 (34:37):
My connection is going unstable.
Speaker 10 (34:39):
So if you if you know anybody, yeah that knows
a lot about telecom, I give you some help over here.
You know one thing I heard earlier, you know, we
had the CEO of a TikTok on that you mentioned.
Maybe it will be the case that they've never handed
data directly to the government of China, but they don't
have to. The reporting has shown and Emily has shown
that the data on US user is accessed by ByteDance
(35:01):
employees in Beijing, which employees are themselves members of the CCPs.
Once they access that data, it can be transferred and
handed over to the CCP immediately. So we've never heard
the TikTok CEO say is that members of the CCP
in Beijing have never accessed US user data. So I
think that's an important sort of point. We the exact wording,
(35:22):
careful wording that the CEO always uses.
Speaker 8 (35:25):
Emily, Yeah, I think when we're talking about whether people
have accessed data, right, there are a lot of ways
that people could access data.
Speaker 11 (35:33):
And I think when TikTok makes statements on.
Speaker 8 (35:37):
The record and they want to make sure that they're
being precise, they can say with the company didn't hand
over this data. I think any company would be worried
about promising that their data had never been accessed by
a group as large.
Speaker 11 (35:51):
As the Chinese Communist Party.
Speaker 8 (35:53):
I mean, we even saw a few years ago Twitter
was infiltrated by several government agents of a foreign government,
and this happens. Foreign governments do try to infiltrate these companies.
They do try to get information about dissidence in their
countries and whatnot. And especially given that TikTok has so
(36:13):
many employees in China, if I worked there and I
were trying to make sure that the data pipelines were clean,
I would be just really worried about there are so
many people, and any one of them could sort of
face a hack, could face It's not necessarily that they're
trying to do anything wrong, but these companies are big
(36:35):
and data gets around.
Speaker 1 (36:36):
Daisy is with us from Bellevue, Idaho. Daisy, what do
you think should TikTok be banned?
Speaker 7 (36:43):
I'm a sixty seven year old conservative woman, fiscally conservative,
although I do find myself centrist on social issues. I
do not believe that TikTok should be banned. I believe
that the control TikTok, in terms of who's us it
should be parental, absolutely, and there might be a way
(37:08):
to make communities be able to block it from the
people in it, but ultimately it comes from parental. The
government has no business blocking anything that's information.
Speaker 1 (37:22):
Daisy, what about the national security concerns? Do you worry
about that at all, that because it's owned by China,
that they could be looking at data that that could
be used in some way against the United States.
Speaker 7 (37:34):
I do, but I don't believe that the information it
should be blocked. I don't believe that any information should
be ben Now, if we're at war, then I think
that any kind of media would be able to, you know,
pass information back and forth using whatever is available, however,
(37:57):
just for us to get along. I really believe that
if information is out there, entertainment, whatever the eye, you know,
I'm the beholder. It's parents duty to protect their children,
and then it's the duty unless we want a global
kind of standard of morals and decency, which I don't
(38:22):
think is possible.
Speaker 2 (38:23):
I did have a question for Emily. I've been dyna asked,
so I know you obviously you have a very specific
experience for this because you were spied on. I think
for a lot of lay people, when I hear like, oh,
TikTok is going to have my data, or like you know,
ccpeople have my data, I don't think anything of it
because I'm like, oh, what are they going to do
with it? What's sort of the worst case scenario?
Speaker 8 (38:41):
So I mean, for me, the worst case scenario is
actually like what they were trying to do, which is
figure out who my sources are. And as a journalist,
you really do everything in your power to try to
keep the people from talking to you safe. But I
think you raise a great point, which is like if
the Chinese government gets your data, so what And I
think a really for some people, for Chinese dissidents living abroad,
(39:05):
that's so what could be really important for a lot
of other people. They could be like, Okay, they can
have my dance videos.
Speaker 6 (39:09):
I don't care.
Speaker 8 (39:10):
And I think one thing that we need to talk
about is how easy it is for the Chinese government
or any government to get this data in other ways.
If the Chinese government really wants my IP address, I
hate to tell you, they can buy it from a
data broker, and that's not even illegal in the United States.
And so especially when it comes to these data flows.
Data flows a lot of places, a lot of ways,
(39:30):
and TikTok is not the only way that the Chinese
government or any bad actor could get information about us.
Speaker 1 (39:37):
Let's go to Ben, who is in Jacksonville, Alabama. Ben,
welcome to the middle. What do you think.
Speaker 21 (39:43):
I do think that we would have to as inclusion
ban TikTok, But I think it's because of a deeper
philosophic reason, and that's because we engage with premium speech
because of liberalism. You know, if we want to choose
John Stewart mill or we want to look at John
Locke or liberal figure that we want to base this
off of the general ideas we share information in the
(40:04):
advancement of reason to be a better understanding of nature
and of us within nature. The Chinese government and the
Chinese state is not based off of that. It's based
off of a different political philosophy, a philosophy of historicism
and a philosophy of Marxism.
Speaker 1 (40:22):
Are you a professor? Are you a professor?
Speaker 17 (40:24):
Are you?
Speaker 1 (40:24):
Are you a philosophy for yourself?
Speaker 21 (40:26):
Okay, I'm not. No, I'm no philosopher, but I am,
and I think I have a professor. And again, I
just think it's there's a there's a different Again, if
if you have different philosophic understandings of what a human
being is and what nature is. Uh, those things do
end up mattering.
Speaker 1 (40:47):
Okay, Ben, thank you, Commissioner Carr.
Speaker 10 (40:50):
I think look, if this was surely a question of
content in a propaganda it would be an interesting question.
Speaker 11 (40:58):
But it's not.
Speaker 10 (40:59):
And this is a case where and we have this
conduct of people really not understanding the amount, the massive
amount of data that's being collected when you're on TikTok Again,
it's search and browsing, history, keystroke patterns, biometrics. According to
their terms of service. You know, here in the US,
we also have a whole regime legally at the FCC
that we apply to anyone that wants to obtain a
broadcast license to own a radio station or a TV station,
(41:22):
And as part of that, we run a national security
review and we look at your trustworthiness. So I don't
think that TikTok, if they wanted to buy a radio station,
for instance, could pass the trustworthiness review that we apply
at the FCC. And we're talking about a radio station
that could mean you know, ten thousand people, let alone
now an application that has hundreds of millions of people
(41:43):
on it. So there's a bit of an asymmetry there
as well. But again, I think we can fully do
this consistent with our own cultural embrace a free expression
because of the conduct that is taking place here.
Speaker 1 (41:55):
Let me get to another call here. Jeff is in Lincoln, Nebraska. Jeff,
what do you think should TikTok be banned?
Speaker 22 (42:01):
No, I assure you not. I am fifty five years old,
and I'm really kind of but I think banning TikTok
is not the right way to go about this, just
(42:21):
because it kind of goes back to you don't want
me to tell you what to do. I don't want
you to tell me what to do kind of thing
in a way, but I believe that there needs to
be some sort of regulation on it. I agree with that,
(42:41):
But there's so much education on it, and I have
learned so many things in the last year, and it is.
Speaker 15 (42:57):
Driving me.
Speaker 22 (42:59):
It's going to help me start my own business.
Speaker 1 (43:02):
Doing what And.
Speaker 22 (43:05):
I'm a handyman, and I'll see all kinds of craftsmen
on here all the time, you know, And and it's
it goes to what you're interested in. Yeah, you can
find all kinds of things on there, but it really
stays kind of focused on what you're interested in and
(43:26):
things you like to see, you know. And it also
goes back to self control too, you know. You know,
I'm not a sun tanner. You know, I don't go
to sun tanning beds and things like that. But I'm
not going to tell somebody they.
Speaker 1 (43:43):
Can't want to write right. Personal freedom there, Jeff, thank
you so much for that call. Emily. Let me let
me go back to you on that, you know, I
just let me just ask you, as we've heard all
these calls this hour, anything surprise you about what people
are bringing.
Speaker 8 (43:58):
Up Emily, I would actually say, no, TikTok is so
big and so much of a sort of part of
the fabric of our society. There are going to be
niches for pretty much everybody.
Speaker 11 (44:09):
There's the Sun's.
Speaker 8 (44:10):
Handing community there, the handyman community there, the people who
like fluffy cats drinking milk out of square cups. Like,
there's so much. There is something for everyone. But I
think the fact that there is something for everyone. One
thing that I would really like to see more and
that would make me feel much more comfortable about the
(44:32):
app is more transparency about what people actually are seeing
on TikTok, because right now, because it's personalized to everybody,
I don't know what the most popular ten videos on
the app are today. I don't know what they were yesterday.
I don't know what they were the day before. I
can't look that up. And if there were mandatory transparency
(44:52):
for companies, we will be able to see what TikTok
is actually showing to the most people, right, Commissioner car Yeah,
I think.
Speaker 10 (45:00):
That's a interesting point because a lot of parents, for instance,
they think of TikTok probably the way they thought about Facebook,
which is it's a community of your friends in people
you know. But TikTok is very different.
Speaker 9 (45:10):
As soon as you sign up.
Speaker 10 (45:11):
You are immediately being fed content dictated by the algorithm itself.
So I think that's one feature that makes it very,
very different. And again I think we see a lot
of bipartisanship on this. In fact, it's you know, Democrat
Senator Mark Warner who's the chair of the Senate Intel Committee,
who's been a real leader on this, as well as
(45:32):
you know Krista Morphy, Congressman, Democrat from Illinois.
Speaker 9 (45:37):
So it's a real interesting bipartisan issue in DC.
Speaker 1 (45:40):
And it was a President Trump, former President Trump, who
was saying that he wanted to ban it when he
was an officer, though he never did. I just want
to get one little listener comment in Laura and Kansas
City says, why are we so worried about TikTok being
owned by China. Fox News is owned and run by
the Murdoch family, who's from Australia. Arguably this station has
influenced the views of millions of Americans. Twitter slash Ax
is owned by man from South Africa, although he is American,
(46:02):
and I bet I don't know for sure but I
bet Rupert Murdock is an American citizen at this point too,
at least a duel. Let's go to a quiz, Tolliver.
Speaker 2 (46:10):
Yes, I'm in Nashville. Every time i'm here, they give
me National Public Radio socks. So whoever wins this quiz,
you're getting some socks. Okay, it's a multiple choice one.
The US has the biggest TikTok audience, with one hundred
and fifty million active users. Which country has the second
biggest TikTok audience? China, France, Indonesia, or Brazil.
Speaker 1 (46:29):
Guests to either one of you.
Speaker 10 (46:33):
Not China because it's not available there, so I don't know,
maybe maybe Brazil.
Speaker 11 (46:39):
Emily, so I would go with Brazil.
Speaker 2 (46:41):
Also, it's Indonesia, Okay, like one hundred and twenty five
million years, I know, shocking.
Speaker 1 (46:47):
I'm not trying to try one hundred and fifty million
in the US.
Speaker 17 (46:49):
Right.
Speaker 1 (46:50):
Well, let's say thank you to our guest, Brendan Carr,
commissioner at the FCC, thank you so much for joining us.
Speaker 10 (46:57):
Good to be with you, thanks so much.
Speaker 1 (46:58):
And Emily Baker, White, technology reporter for Forbes, thank you,
thank you, and Tolliver next week the Supreme Court is
going to hear oral arguments about whether former President Trump
can be kept off the ballot because of the Fourteenth
Amendment to the Constitution.
Speaker 2 (47:11):
Yeah, it's a big question with huge implications, obviously, and
we want to hear from you. Do you think Trump
should be allowed on the ballot this fall? You can
call us at eight four to four four six four
three three five three or write in at Listen to
the Middle dot com. While you're there, sign up for
our weekly newsletter.
Speaker 1 (47:26):
Come on, and don't forget to sign up for our
podcast because that special bonus podcast about China is coming
out in just a few days. The Middle is brought
to you by Long Nook Media, distributed by Illinois Public
Media in Urbana, Illinois, and produced by Joanne Jennings, Harrison Fatino,
John Barth, and Danny Alexander. Our technical director is Jason Croft.
Our theme music was composed by Andrew Haig. Thanks to
(47:47):
Nashville Public Radio for hosting Tolliver in their studio this
week in exchange for apparently a key line pie, and
thanks to iHeartMedia and the more than four hundred public
radio stations that are making it possible for people across
the country to listen to the Middle. I'm Jeremy Hobson.
Talk to you next week.
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