March 1, 2024 • 49 mins
On this episode of The Middle, we're joined by a special guest: Utah Governor Spencer Cox. A staunch conservative who maintains a strong anti-Trump stance, Cox has championed healthy political disagreement in these highly polarized times. He gives his thoughts on a number of hot-button issues, from IVF to this year's upcoming presidential election. The Middle's house DJ Tolliver joins as well, plus callers from around the country. #IVF #abortion #DEI #election #bipartisanship #Trump #immigration #transrights
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Episode Transcript
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Speaker 1 (00:05):
Welcome to the Middle. I'm Jeremy Hobson at Kueer in
Salt Lake City, Utah. Tolliver, we have more new listeners
this week.
Speaker 2 (00:13):
Yes, indeed, we have listeners from wu WM in Milwaukee, Wisconsin,
a place that will have a lot of sway in
the upcoming election.
Speaker 1 (00:20):
Absolutely. And did you know, Tolliver, that Wisconsin is famous
for their bloody marys.
Speaker 3 (00:25):
Uh?
Speaker 2 (00:25):
You know what Jeremy I did, and that's.
Speaker 4 (00:27):
Where in that story.
Speaker 1 (00:29):
Yeah, okay, Well it's a perfect transition to where we
are now, which is a state that has a huge
Mormon population and is therefore not famous for its bloody marys.
But our guest this hour is Utah's Governor, Spencer Cox,
a conservative Republican who didn't vote for President Trump and
is in fact vocally anti Trump. We're taking your calls
in a moment at eight four four four Middle, that
is eight four four four six four three three five
(00:49):
three before we get to the governor. Last week, we
asked you if you think it's time to change the
way we nominate our presidential candidates. Many of you said yes.
Take a listen to some of the voicemails that came
in after the show.
Speaker 5 (01:03):
Hi, my name is Barbara Rowland. I am calling from Anchorage, Alaska.
Speaker 3 (01:07):
My name is Chris Alaska. I'm calling from Raleigh, North Carolina.
Speaker 5 (01:12):
Hi. This is Jessica calling from South Belois, Illinois.
Speaker 6 (01:16):
My name is Daniel.
Speaker 7 (01:17):
I'm calling from Kansas City, Missouri. I think we should
talk about what is actually good for the country and
how we can find some middle ground in the midst
of this very polarized environment.
Speaker 5 (01:31):
I wish that nationwide, our pulling places would all open
and close at the same time.
Speaker 3 (01:39):
I'm in favor of doing away with all these state
primaries and Caucasus. I'd like to see a one day
national primary in all the states and territories, and if
there's not a clear winner and have a runoff, we're.
Speaker 5 (01:54):
Always picking the lesser of two evils, voting against who
we don't want instead of voting for who we do want.
Speaker 1 (02:03):
Some great points. Thanks to all of you who called in.
Now do our guest this hour. Utah's governor Spencer Cox.
He is a conservative Republican in a ruby red state.
He has expanded gun rights, cutback regulation, and has tried
to ban most abortions in the state. But he didn't
vote for President Trump in twenty sixteen or twenty twenty,
and he says his party would be making a mistake
(02:25):
if they nominate Trump this year. As chair of the
National Governors Association, Cox is focused on getting his colleagues
in both parties to, as he puts it, disagree better.
Last week, he toasted President Biden at a black tie
dinner at the White House for the governors.
Speaker 8 (02:41):
Mister President, we disagree on many things, and yet all
of the governors in this room are chief executives.
Speaker 4 (02:51):
We know just a very little bit of the.
Speaker 8 (02:54):
Incredible burden that weighs on your shoulders. We can't imagine
what it must be like, the decisions that you have
to make, but we feel a small modicum of that pressure,
and so tonight we honor you. My parents taught me
that we should pray for the leaders of our country.
Mister President, I want you to know that our family
(03:16):
prays for you and your family every night. We pray
that you will be successful, because if you're successful, that
means that the United States of America is successful.
Speaker 9 (03:26):
Well.
Speaker 1 (03:26):
Joining me here in the studio in Salt Lake City
is Spencer Cox, the Republican governor of Utah, governor. Welcome
to the middle.
Speaker 4 (03:32):
Thank you, Jeremy. It's great to be with you.
Speaker 1 (03:34):
And you just don't hear that that often what you
just did there from people in either party talking about
somebody from the other party. Yeah, and it.
Speaker 4 (03:40):
Probably cost me my re election this year. But here
we are.
Speaker 1 (03:42):
Well by the way, you said, you didn't vote for Trump,
you didn't vote for Biden.
Speaker 4 (03:45):
I did not vote for Biden.
Speaker 1 (03:47):
Did you face any blowback from your party just in
the last week for what you just did at the
White House?
Speaker 4 (03:53):
Sure? So very little blowback. I mean, obviously there's blowback.
That's all we do these days, and that's why I'm
so dead catered to depolarization. Look, I don't always get
this right. I make mistakes all of the time. But
I am very concerned about our country and what's happening
out there. Some of the callers, I like some of
those voicemails talking about how polarized we are as a nation.
(04:14):
It used to be normal for two people of different
parties to appear on the same stage together. Again, we
can disagree without hating each other. That's the country I
grew up in, and I think it's the country we
need to get back. I do believe that there's an
exhausted majority out there. When this was released, I did
get blowback. There was a picture that showed me toasting
the president, and I did get a lot of blowback
(04:36):
from that. But when they actually released the audio, I
got positive feedback from a lot of people saying, wow,
thank you. I wish we could do more of that.
Speaker 1 (04:45):
What kind of pressure have you gotten from Trump to
fall in line because this is what she does with
everybody who's step steps out of line.
Speaker 4 (04:51):
Well, look, I'll get pressure from everyone. We have a process,
you know. I agree with your callers, by the way
that the process is okay. I would like to see
a different process for how we nominate our candidates. I
would like to see rotating regional primaries. But look, the
Republican Party gets to choose I don't get to choose
our nominee. And while I think we could win by
(05:13):
very large margins if we nominated literally anyone else, I
think you know, Nikki Hayley, there's some polling that shows
her up by his many's eighteen points over Joe Biden.
But but if she makes it, if she yeah correct,
and she's not going to like you know, I recognize that,
and so my party's going to choose, and they're going
to choose Donald Trump. I also think the Democrats are
(05:34):
making a huge mistake in renominating President Biden. And because
of his age or what yeah, yeah, well, because of
his age, I disagree with many of his policies. I
will tell you. I've also been very vocal that I
do think Donald Trump is going to win this next election.
I feel pretty confident about that because of the age,
because of the border. I think those are the two
biggest issues in this election right now, and I think
(05:57):
President Biden's on the wrong side of both of them.
Speaker 1 (05:59):
Do you worry about US democracy if President Trump wins reelection?
He said he wants to share theater. On day one,
he said he wants to suspend the constitution.
Speaker 4 (06:08):
Well, I don't think he said I want to be
a dictator on day one, but he said some things
that were were.
Speaker 1 (06:12):
I mean, he was asked, you said you want to
be a dictors that's only on day one.
Speaker 4 (06:16):
Well yeah, yeah, look he he he does that. That's
that's that's his and I'm very different. I mean, there's
a reason that I haven't voted for either major party
in twelve years. So so yeah, I have I have
major concerns about democracy in our country, not just when
he's president. I have those concerns right now when he's
not president. Why because because of the polarization. Because you
(06:38):
are our system. This this nation was founded on profound disagreement,
but on our ability, a pluralistic society where lots of
people of different backgrounds, different ethnicities, different points of view,
different races, have the ability to come together. And we
have the system set up that allows us to disagree
(07:00):
and and to battle it out and then to you know,
we win some elections, we lose some elections. What we're
doing now is very different than that. What we're doing
now is a type of polarization, and effective polarization. As
experts have looked at this, where we Republicans and Democrats
aren't that far apart. We think we're farther apart. And
(07:21):
because we think the other side is going to destroy
democracy and willing to do anything to make that happen,
then we allow our side to do the same thing.
And that's incredibly dangerous. And too many in the media
and too many politicians are are taking advantage of that.
They're dividing us for their own gain, and that's going
to lead to a very dark place.
Speaker 1 (07:40):
Well, it's easy to talk about, you know, politicians being
nicer to each other. How do you get that done?
Speaker 4 (07:46):
Sure? Well, so there's there's lots of ways to do
this and one way again, I'm working with my governors
to do this, and I've asked them to engage in this.
Many of them have, and that's where we're getting groups
of people together. For example, we've done this on the
board and on immigration, we had we had twelve governors,
six Republicans and six Democrats. I put them together. We've
(08:06):
been talking about this for months, we've been debating it
back and forth, and that that's healthy conflict. We don't
all agree, but that then we look for areas where
we do agree. And so we need some good examples
out there. But ultimately, we the people have to elect
people who are willing to do things a little differently.
Speaker 1 (08:24):
And we're going to get to the border. We're going
to get to immigration. But let's go to the phones
right now and Mark and Boise Idaho.
Speaker 10 (08:29):
Mark, go ahead, Hi, thanks for thanks for the show.
Speaker 11 (08:33):
Two questions. Actually, before I get to the questions, I'm
kind of like you. You're one of your people on
your show. I'm not there for a main card main
party candidate for forty years, ever since Jimmy Carter in
seventy six, for many of the same reasons he spous.
(08:55):
My question to you actually took questions. Number one is
how viable is a third party candidate in this election?
Number two, If it is viable, just who are the
possible nominees?
Speaker 1 (09:10):
All right, Mark, let me take that to the governor.
Do you think that that a third party candidate would
be viable in the United States in this election? Yeah?
Speaker 4 (09:17):
So, so there's there's been a lot of research on this.
The last kind of third party candidate that we had,
the I mean, wasn't going to win, but that took
a major share of the election was Ross Perrot right
back in the back in the ninety ninety two. Yeah,
ninety two, that's exactly right. So I do think that
that third party candidates are going to pull a much
larger portion of the vote this year. But but I
(09:39):
don't see any of the existing third party candidates right
now doing anything that that I would consider viable. The
big question is will they will they pull votes from
one candidate or the other and as such hand the
election over to someone else. So RFK Junior is is
obviously the most the most popular, the biggest name, Robert F.
Kennedy Junior, having the Ken named behind him. He ran
(10:01):
a Super Bowl ad that was a little controversial, interesting,
and so I do think he'll pull a major portion
of the vote. I do think that we are nearing
the time when if you had the right person, with
the right resources, a big name, somebody who had governed before.
So there is a little bit of a background, people
know what they're getting where somebody actually could be viable.
(10:22):
Look about seventy depending on the polling, seventy to seventy
five percent of the people in the United States don't
want either of these candidates, and so there is a
door open. The problem right now is we just don't
have the right third party candidates. And I will tell
you if you're looking for somebody under the age of seventy,
we have three kind of major I guess ish third
party candidates. None of them are under the age of
seventy either. So it's you know, I don't know gen
(10:45):
x is going to get skipped over.
Speaker 1 (10:46):
The ideal age for a president.
Speaker 4 (10:48):
Well, I don't know, but it's it's I would say
less than that. Less than that. Yes, absolutely, can I
tell you a quick story, Let's.
Speaker 1 (10:55):
Do it right after the break, just because I want
to make sure that we get to some more calls
here and tall, I want to tell you, since we're
speaking of age, that Utah is the youngest state in
America average age thirty one point nine. Maine is the
oldest at forty four point eight.
Speaker 2 (11:08):
Oh my, And did you know that they still do
positive political ads in Utah? Sometimes this is actually and
the governor's raised. Back in twenty twenty, then candidate Cox
actually did an add with his Democratic opponent, Chris Peterson.
Speaker 4 (11:19):
Listen, I'm Chris Peterson and I'm Spencer Cox.
Speaker 1 (11:22):
We are currently in the final days of campaigning against
each other to be your next governor.
Speaker 4 (11:26):
And while I think you should vote for me, yeah,
but really you should vote for me. There are some
things we both agree on.
Speaker 1 (11:32):
We can debate issues without degrading each other's character.
Speaker 4 (11:36):
We can disagree without hating each other and win or lose.
Speaker 1 (11:39):
In Utah, we work together so polite here in Utah. Well,
you can be polite to us too, right now by
going to listen to the Middle dot com if you
appreciate the work that we are doing here at the Middle.
We are trying to raise money as we head into
this crucial election this year, and you can make a
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(11:59):
to the Middle dot com and we will be right
back with more of the middle. This is the Middle.
I'm Jeremy Hobson. If you're just tuning, in the Middle
is a national call in show. We're focused on elevating
voices from the middle geographically, politically, and philosophically. Or maybe
you just want to meet in the middle this hour.
My guest is Utah Governor Spencer Cox. We're talking about
a range of topics. What questions do you have for
(12:22):
the Governor?
Speaker 2 (12:22):
Yes, give us a call at eight four four four Middle.
That's eight four four four six four three three five three.
Speaker 1 (12:28):
You can also write to us at listening to Sorry
go ahead, Yes, you can write to us at listen
to the Middle dot com. Governor. Before we go back
to the phones, let's talk about immigration. Would you like
to see Congress pass the bill that was passed on
a bipartisan basis in the Senate, but was sidelined in
the House after Donald Trump told Republicans not to support
it because he didn't want to give President Biden to
(12:49):
win an election year.
Speaker 4 (12:51):
So to be clear, there was a bill that was
not passed in the Senate. It didn't get a vote
in the Senate. That was the one that Donald Trump opposed.
There was another bill of funding bill that was passed
later that has not gotten a hearing in the House yet.
I did. I had lots of problems with the first one.
The second one is a funding bill only, and yes,
I would like to see funding passed. Congress has to
do something, and they're they're not. They've kicked the can
(13:13):
down on What about the.
Speaker 1 (13:15):
Bill though, that you were talking about, the first one
that was James Langford, the Republican from Oklahoma, had been
working on for a very long time on a bipartisan basis.
It was seen as a very tough immigration bill, kind
of almost everything Republicans wanted.
Speaker 4 (13:25):
Yeah, well, not everything Republicans wanted or would have passed
with Republican support, And I think that was part of
the problem. The part of the the problem. There was
that that bill was negotiated with a very small group
of people without the input of his colleagues, and that's again,
the Congress is broken right now. That's not how we
do things in Utah. Tomorrow's the last day of the
legislative session we've been negotiating. Everybody gets a chance to
(13:47):
weigh in on those pieces of legislation. It didn't happen,
didn't even get a vote. Again, I think it's a mistake.
I think more has to be done. I had problems
with that bill. But let's start somewhere.
Speaker 1 (13:58):
Okay, so let's get outside of the Washington bubble. What
would you like to see done on immigration?
Speaker 4 (14:01):
Yeah, so, obviously we need more funding for the border.
I've talked to the president about that. We know we
need to do that. We need a president who's actually
willing to enforce existing law on the border, which which
hasn't been happening over the past couple of years. So
that's something that the desperately needs to change.
Speaker 1 (14:15):
And meaning, what, what would you have him do to
enforce the existing laws on the border.
Speaker 4 (14:19):
Yeah, well, again, I think he has he has lots
of options. We have National guardsmen he can call out
to go down there and work on the border. We've
done that before under both the Trump and Biden administration.
He could do that. There's more that can be done.
We have to make some changes when it comes to
asylum laws. Now there is an argument, and I had
this argument with the President that he could he could,
(14:41):
he could start enforcing those asylum laws differently at the border.
His attorneys are telling him that he can't do that.
So that's that's a piece of discussion. But the Congress
if he if he's not willing to do it, then
Congress needs to make a change there.
Speaker 1 (14:54):
What about the people who are already here.
Speaker 4 (14:56):
Illegally, sure, well, we need to fix legal immigration, and
there's there's lots of debate over what that looks like. Certainly,
we've we we've got to stop incentivizing people from coming here.
I think there's there's historically been broad consensus over over
Dreamers and and DAKA.
Speaker 1 (15:13):
So again, we just have to see what about everybody else?
I mean, Nikki Haley and Donald Trump have called for
deporting everybody who's in the country illegally, millions, millions apiece.
Speaker 4 (15:22):
Not gonna happen, Not gonna happen, Not gonna happen. There's
no way that's so what do you do? So so
we again, we've got to we've got to be smart
about it, so you start working. We actually passed a
comprehensive immigration reform in Utah about eleven years ago. Eleven
or twelve years ago. We were the first state to
do it. We passed it, and then uh sadly, uh
President Obama wouldn't let us implement it, and then President
(15:43):
Trump wouldn't let us implement it. And what we did
in Utah I think was very fascinating. What we did
was everybody had to come out of the shadows that
they had to register with the state. They had to
pay a fine that they did not get citizenship, but
they could get a work permit for for for after
they paid that fine, so they would get a work
permit that would then allow them to work, which most
of them were already doing but doing it illegally. They
(16:05):
would start paying taxes. If anything happened, they would get deported.
If any laws were broken, they would immediately get deported
and then they would have to get in line just
like everybody else, but they would go to the back
of the line. If they were deported after having no again,
if they broke the law and were deported, then they left.
But for the people who were here and not breaking
any other laws except of course being here illegally, right,
(16:27):
then they would have to go to the back of
the line when it comes to working through and trying
to get legal immigration status.
Speaker 1 (16:34):
Let's go to the phones, because we've got a lot
of calls. I want to keep it g rated now,
please callers. Jenna is in Provo Utah, not far away. Jenna,
welcome to the middle Go ahead with the governor.
Speaker 12 (16:45):
I'm wondering you've seen your support for the state of
Israel and.
Speaker 13 (16:48):
For Jewish Utons.
Speaker 12 (16:49):
I'm glad to know that you support Jewish utons. But
now that more than ten thousand children and thousands of
other innocent civilians refugees have been deliberately killed using US
weapons and all of our taxes, will you retract your
support for the Israeli government or state your support for
Palestinian utons or for Americans with family members dying and
dead in Gaza.
Speaker 4 (17:09):
Go ahead, Governor, thank you, thanks for the call. Of course,
it cared deeply about Palestinian Utons who are living here,
and we we have many incredible Palestinian Utans that are
that are here and are our hearts are broken for
for what's happening in in Gaza and the terrible tragedies
that have happened because of Hamas and Uh No, I
(17:30):
will not retract my support for Israel. I I do
support Israel and uh this this could end tomorrow. All
Hamas has to do is surrender and uh and and
the war is over, and so I would encourage them
to do that. Hamas rejected a cease fire that was
that President Biden was working on this this this week,
and I think that was a huge mistake on behalf
(17:52):
of a Maas. That's not to say that Israel hasn't
made mistakes, but but I I believe that Hamas has
the power to end this.
Speaker 1 (18:00):
A lot of Democrats, as we just saw in Michigan,
are very angry at President Biden for his handling of this,
even though he has, you know, said that Israel's reaction
has been quote over the top. Do you how do
you feel about President Biden's handling of the situation in
Israel Gaza.
Speaker 4 (18:17):
Well, again that we probably have some differences, but I
do appreciate that the President has been supportive of Israel.
Israel after October seventh and the attack that happened there,
And yeah, I think that shows the extremism in our country.
You've we've talked a lot about extremism on the right,
but there is extremism on the left, and I think
you're seeing it in that case as well.
Speaker 1 (18:38):
Let's go to Rebecca, who is in Minnesota. Rebecca, go ahead,
welcome to the middle.
Speaker 14 (18:45):
Yes, I just had to say that it's truly refreshing
to hear the speech by the governor that could speak
with decency, in a respectful manner, recognizing and acknowledging the
good things that President Biden has done and not feeling
(19:05):
like he has to attack him like it so often happens.
And this type of speech just makes me feel so much.
Speaker 13 (19:21):
More like we.
Speaker 14 (19:22):
Can work together when somebody is able to make a
speech like that. And I just feel like the loss
of decorum in our government is just incredible, and I
wish we could demand a more respectful attitude and not
(19:44):
let people get away with attacking. So that's all.
Speaker 1 (19:48):
Right, what I wanted to say, Thank you, Rebecca, Thank
you for that. I'm sure the governors thank you for no.
Speaker 4 (19:53):
No, thank you. Look, I promised four years ago that
I would run a positive campaign, that I wouldn't run
any negative ads against my opponents in the Republican primary
or my Democratic component, and we were able to keep
that promise, one of the few races in the country
where that happened. And I've made I've made the same
promise again this year as I'm up for reelection, that
I will run a positive campaign and on a negative campaign,
(20:15):
and it's it's pretty rare these days, but I'm hoping
that it will catch on.
Speaker 1 (20:19):
So I want to ask you this because I've been
speaking with many Utahs since I have been here in
Salt Lake City, some of whom voted for you, and
I have heard from a number of people that they
were very happy with you until the last six months
or so, and specifically on the issue of trans rights,
because you have you you vetoed a bill that would
(20:41):
have banned trans girls in girls' sports in this state,
but then it was overridden by the legislature. But then
you came out and banned gender affirming care for minors,
and you recently just called it gender mutilation.
Speaker 4 (20:53):
I believe well, and again I apologize for that that
statement that was, you know, I misspoke. I should not
have referred to it as that. But look, we've worked
very closely with the transgender community here and there are
differences of opinion on this very subject, and I was
(21:13):
overridden in that veto early on. And you know these
other bills that you talked about past with the veto
proof majority as well. That being said, there were ports
of those bills that I think were very important that
were different than some of the bills that you've seen
in other countries, I'm sorry, in other states, and I
think that's one of the mistakes we do. You know,
ninety nine percent of the people I've talked to about
(21:34):
these bills have never read them, have never looked at them,
have no idea what's in them. They just read the headline.
You know, there's a bathroom ban, right, that's all they see,
not realizing that one of the things we did in
that bill was to was to require and these are
just in public facilities. It only applies to public facilities
that there are unisex bathrooms, and so every new facility
(21:55):
will be built with unisex bathrooms, and existing facilities will
need to be retrofited to accommodate people so that we
don't have these clashes and these issues. We're trying to
protect women as well who felt uncomfortable, and so that's
that's what we're trying.
Speaker 1 (22:09):
But then why ban gender affirming care for miners who
have the miners themselves obviously have decided they want to
do it, their parents, I would assume in many cases
have also said that they're okay with it, and the
doctor has said that they're okay with it.
Speaker 4 (22:20):
Sure, what we ban lots of things for miners that
we don't allow miners to do, and there there is,
despite what we hear in the United States, there is
broad disagreement over the nature of this care. There are
lots of European countries, very progressive European countries, that are
stepping back in a major way from what we've been doing.
(22:43):
Seeing is this is dangerous. We don't know what the
long term effects of this are and and something is
happening out there as as thousands and thousands.
Speaker 1 (22:51):
What we do know though, is that trans youth are
very likely to consider and even try to take their
own life, to consider suicide. How do you balance that,
because when you when you come out and say they're
not allowed to be who they believe that they are.
Aren't you putting them at risk of doing something terrible?
Speaker 4 (23:13):
Well, that's that's certainly an argument. But I would also argue,
and and again, the data shows this that that those
young people who have transitioned are still at a very
high rate of of mental health disorders and potential suicide.
There's there's no proof that this is solving the problem.
(23:35):
And so what we did, again different than every other state.
We put a million dollars aside for for therapy for
kids who are facing this, so again trying to find
something positive and once they turn eighteen, once their brains
are more fully formed, and then they can make that
decision for themselves.
Speaker 1 (23:52):
I want to go to another person in the state
of Utah. Peter is in Bountiful, Utah. Peter, go ahead,
welcome to the middle.
Speaker 15 (24:00):
Thank you, Governor Cox. Frankly, I was really surprised to
hear that you opposed President Trump. It feels to me
that there we're in a very much a red state. Now,
if I can bring it back to the issue of
President Trump. When Navalney died, electing Navalney, I immediately thought
of what seems to me to be an approach by
(24:24):
Trump to be more authoritarian, and I guess I would
like to know whether you have similar opinions or what
do you think would be the outcome if he's reelected
or when he's reelected, if you believe that'll be the case.
Speaker 4 (24:35):
Sure, yeah, No, I do think he'll be reelected. And again,
the Republicans are are going to make that decision, and
it looks like he is going to be the nominee.
We do have Super Tuesday coming up, and they're still
a candidate out there. In fact, Nikki Haley was here
in Utah campaigning just yesterday. But I think the writing
on the wall is pretty clear. And look, I again,
(24:56):
as as somebody who has who has based my career
on trying to treat other people with respect. Obviously, President
Trump has a very different approach to that, and that's
where we disagree. I don't hate President Trump, and I would.
I've worked with President Trump in the past. I will
work with him again. If you wonder what it will
be like, I think it will be a lot like
the first time, you know, and we made it through
(25:18):
that time, and we made it through the last four years.
Speaker 1 (25:20):
So I feel very depend the first time there was
a yeah which was great at the capital.
Speaker 4 (25:25):
Which which was not great. It really wasn't. And I think,
by the way, I'm convinced we will see more of that.
And I'm convinced we will see more of that if
President Trump wins in the first in this next election,
and I think we'll see some of the same behavior
on the left. You do, I absolutely somewhat, because I
saw it in twenty sixteen, and I saw it in
twenty twenty leading up to that, with the writing that
(25:48):
was happening in many parts of the country. I can
tell you the first time I got worried about about
elections was in twenty sixteen when I went to certify
the election. I was a lieutenant governor of Utah, and
no one has ever showed up to a certification of election.
It's a perfunctory thing that we do. I showed up,
there was a room full of one hundred people who
were screaming and trying to convince us not to certify
(26:11):
the election of Donald Trump. Those weren't Republicans that were
doing that. Those were Democrats that had showed up that way.
And so I was convinced when I filmed that ad
with my opponent that you guys ran. The reason we
did that is because I was talking with a friend
and we were worried that if Donald Trump won again,
the left was going to burn it down, and if
(26:32):
Joe Biden won, the right was going to shoot it up.
And sure enough, Joe Biden ran and we had one
and we had January sixth.
Speaker 1 (26:39):
Let's go to another call from Ethel who is in Wassaw, Wisconsin. Hi, Ethol,
welcome to the middle.
Speaker 13 (26:47):
Hello, thank you for having me and Jeremy, and I'm
probably gonna talk fast because I have three points I'd
love to share it.
Speaker 1 (26:53):
Okay, go quick.
Speaker 13 (26:54):
Yeah, but ticking from the top, Governor, you mentioned that
the last time there was a third party candidate it
was nineteen ninety two and that was Ross Pearl, And
I think having a third party candidate candidate gives us
an opportunity to like have pause, maybe a time out
between the two battling parties that are at the top.
(27:15):
You mentioned RFD Junior being one of the third party candidates,
but then you said there was like three of them.
Who are the other two? So that's point one, Go.
Speaker 4 (27:24):
Ahead, Governor, Yeah, so you're catching me I'm trying to
think Jill Stein is one of Cornell West is the
other one.
Speaker 1 (27:31):
Yeah, I think we're gonna have to leave it at
just one point. Ethel, I'm sorry to say, because Tolliver,
we're live here in Salt Lake City, and even though,
as we've been saying, the state of Utah SKU is
largely Republican, there are still some stark differences of opinion
within the party here.
Speaker 2 (27:46):
Yes, absolutely, Actually both Utah Senators Mitt Romney and Mike
Lee are Republicans, but they differ quite a bit on
the former president.
Speaker 4 (27:53):
Take a listen, here's what I know. Donald Trump is
a phony, a fraud.
Speaker 1 (27:58):
Yes, neither the temperament nor the judgment to be president.
Speaker 3 (28:01):
The American people need a return of Donald Trump.
Speaker 1 (28:04):
They need the return of someone who was willing to
secure our border, was willing to look out for American interests,
not those of our adversaries, not those of foreign countries.
Governor Cox, how do you explain that Utah has elected
both Mitt Romney and Mike Lee to people with very
different approaches to politics.
Speaker 4 (28:21):
Sure, Look, this is let me just say more broadly,
this is one of the problems we've just spent you know,
we've just spent forty minutes mostly talking about one person, right,
Donald Trump. And I'm just that those two people, Mitt
Romney and Mike Lee really aren't that different. If you
look at their voting records, there very similar. In fact,
Mitt Romney voted with Donald Trump more than Mike Lee did.
(28:44):
That's a shock to most people. And so we've become
so obsessed with this, and I believe this is one
of the problems in our country today, is that the
presidency has an outsized influence on all of us. And
that's something that started, you know early, well maybe back
in the seventies, sixties and seventies with the imperial presidency
(29:04):
and the rise of the importance of the presidency and
the power that they have, where Congress has seated so
much of their power because they're dyfunctional over to the president.
But I'm just I just want to say, like, I
don't believe that this is the end of our country,
regardless of who wins, and the fact that so many
people believe that heightens the stakes and then makes us
do crazy things like January sixth.
Speaker 1 (29:25):
Why do you think so many people believe that? Well,
because if you don't think it's true. Why do you
think so many people believe.
Speaker 4 (29:31):
I don't think it should be true. I'm not saying
it's not true. It's a perception thing. And part of
that is because politics has become entertainment for so many
of us, and politics has become religion for so many
of us. It's very unhealthy. I didn't know who the
Republicans and Democrats were in my small town. I grew
up in town, twelve hundred people, my congregation. I didn't
know who they were. That was the last thing we
(29:52):
knew who. You know, we were Americans. First, we were Utah
and second we were Utah jazz fans. Third who lost
to Night. But we were Republicans the Democrats way down
the list, and we should get back to that.
Speaker 1 (30:00):
We are speaking with Utah Governor Spencer Cox. More of
your calls coming up on the middle. This is the middle.
I'm Jeremy Hobson. If you're just joining us, I'm at
KUER in Salt Lake City. I'm here with Utah's Republican
Governor Spencer Cox. Our number is eight four four four middle.
That is eight four four four six four three three
five three. Or you can reach out to us at
listen to themiddle dot com. Before we go back to
(30:22):
the phones, let me ask you about a couple of
more things. Governor Utah passed a first in the nation
ban on abortion clinics. You signed it into law. It's
on hold in the courts. We've been hearing over the
last week or so about what happened in Alabama, another
state with very strict laws on abortion. The Supreme Court
ruled that embryo should be afforded the same protection as
(30:43):
all humans in relation to in vitro fertilization. What's your
position as a Republican on IVF? Keeping in mind, by
the way, I have read the fact that you've written
about the fact that your wife was a surrogate for
your sister trail.
Speaker 5 (30:58):
Yeah.
Speaker 4 (30:59):
Yeah, I love the miracle of IVF, the miracle of
technology that allows us, uh, the opportunity for families who
otherwise would not be able to to bring children into
this world. Really special experience. My wife was a gestational carrier,
as it's referred to. My I have a sister with
sistic fibrosis. She she had had a baby and and
(31:19):
and almost died. I mean she she she did die.
They brought her back and doctors told her she could
not have another child. She felt very strongly that that
she was supposed to have another child, and and we
thought we were done having children. And this, through the
miracle of IVF, this child, my wife was just the oven.
This child was all the product of my sister and
(31:39):
her husband. So, uh, fertilized egg from my sister and
her husband was implanted into my wife via the IVF process.
And uh and my my my nephew, who's who's gosh
now twelve years old, incredible young man, So proud of him.
And uh and I'm grateful that your favorite, very very much.
Speaker 1 (32:00):
What about the issue of an embryo though, how do
you square the support of IVF with the opposition to abortion?
Speaker 4 (32:06):
Sure, yeah, so again, I haven't read that case, and
so it's a very My understanding is it's it's it's
a legal rendering based on a law and interpretation of
that law. And so I again, when life begins, that's
that's up for debate. I know there's a lot of
debate around that, but I I don't think that these
issues are are as closely aligned as as as many
(32:29):
have have led us to believe. Other than this case,
no other state has had any problems navigating between the
two with with some abortion restrictions and allowing IVF to continue.
And so I, you know, we don't have a problem
with you.
Speaker 1 (32:40):
So you don't believe that an embryo is a human.
Speaker 4 (32:42):
Being, an embryo outside of the mother. I I it's
a potential human being. It could become a human being.
But it's it's it's not it's it's it's it's two
cells once once they start to grow within the womb.
Then that's that's different for me.
Speaker 1 (32:57):
And so what about for in terms of your ban
on abortion clinics, as we said as a hold in
the course, Yeah, why do that?
Speaker 4 (33:03):
Well, there's lots of reasons. Again for those of us
who who don't believe in abortion, and I know many
of your listeners do and and that's okay. We uh
we we have passed an abortion band in our state
with with with the three you know, major exemptions, the
the life and the mother, rape and incest. And so
that's where that's where we've drawn the line. And that's
(33:23):
the that's the thing I love about our system. And
I think a mistake that was made by Supreme Court
forty years ago with Roe V. Wade is that we
can allow different states to do different things, and that's
I believe that that's the way it should be.
Speaker 1 (33:36):
Let's go to John, who is in Ogden, Utah, not
far from here. John, welcome to the middle Go ahead.
Speaker 10 (33:43):
Hi, thank you, it's nice to be able to talk
to you, Governor Cox. I've lived here my whole life.
I'm a Utah through and through. I love the state,
but I'm a member of the LGBT community, and I
have to admit I'm anxious. I'm nervous the country why
but large is nervous on this issue, but my whole life,
I can't help but notice this state feels like a
(34:06):
soft theocracy. I feel as though the specter of the
church is always somewhere in the legislative process, more so
than I think it should be. And I respect the
LDS Church, and I have a lot of LDS friends
like it's a very nice institution at times, but I
believe it has very problematic parts that are unduly affecting
(34:27):
my life and others like me, and I wanted to
know your opinions on that.
Speaker 4 (34:30):
Yeah, thanks, John. You know I get this question a lot,
and I understand it obviously that when people live in
a state with where a majority of people belong to
a religion or any one group, there's definitely going to
be feelings like that. I can tell you, you know,
and you can believe me or not believe me, but
I almost never hear from the Church on issues of
(34:52):
policy on things related to the legislative session. I've had
one conversation within this session, and it was actually a
out land downtown and what downtown is going to look
like if there's going to be a new arena built
downtown for hockey. That's the literally the only feedback I've
gotten on any bill this year. And it wasn't even
on a bill. It was us seeking them out because
(35:13):
they're one of the major landowners downtown. So so I
understand that I will say that that that I there
has been a change in the Church and their approach
to many of these issues, especially those affecting the LGBTQ community.
And you know, the one bill I have seen them
way in on recently was one in Congress to uh
(35:34):
in support of gay marriage, which I think was a
surprise to a lot of people. In fact, all four
members of Congress of the House of representatives from Utah.
Conservative Republicans voted in favor of putting gay marriage into
law and h and and one of our two senators
did that as well. And so I'm I'm assuming you
(35:55):
were supportive of the church wing in there. So so
you know, perhaps in the past, before I was governor,
the Church kind of put their finger on the scale
or weigh in with a more heavy hand. Now, now
all of that being said, you do have members of
the Church who are elected. And you don't check your
religion at the door when you go to when you
go to legislate. Now, you do legislate on behalf of everyone,
(36:17):
but the things you believe in your principles. You know,
conservative Republicans who also happen to be members of the
Church of Jesus Christ of Latter day Saints are more
likely to vote for similar things. There's no questions. But
I can tell you that many of our liberal members
of the House and Senate in Utah are also members
of the Church.
Speaker 1 (36:36):
I want to ask you about something else that's come
up in the news here. Utah is one of the
first states to ban diversity, equity and inclusion or DEI
in state institutions. You signed a bill that prohibits any program, office,
or initiative that has DEI in its name or asserts
that meritocracy is inherently racist or sexist. That is certainly
something that's up for debate around the country. But what
(36:58):
I noticed is that when you started your administration, the
very first proclamation you signed as governor was a pledge
on racial equity, diversity and inclusion. So what has changed
for you in the last four years.
Speaker 4 (37:10):
Yeah, So again, this is one where I would encourage
people to go read the bill because it's very different
than all the other states that have done this that
have prohibited DEI. And in our state, we do believe
in diversity. The diversity is very important. I do believe
in an inclusion and that's where that's what I signed
when I came into office, and I still believe in
those principles. Sadly, that's not what's happening, especially on college campuses,
(37:34):
and that's where this was mainly pointed, was towards our
college campuses where we're requiring professors and others who were
hiring to submit a written statement, almost a pledge towards
an ideology which is different than the words. And this
is where we're talking past each other. I don't have
time tonight to answer all of that, but what I
(37:55):
will say is I wrote five thousand words on diversity, equity,
inclusion and why I signed that bill, and I hope
you'll all google it and go read.
Speaker 1 (38:03):
Do you like to write big pieces about what you think.
Speaker 4 (38:06):
Because look, we need more of this, you guys. We've
gotten so dumb as Americans, where we only talk in
sound bites on cable news and in two hundred and
eighty characters. These are very deep and philosophical discussions that
we need to be having, and very very few politicians
are actually willing to do the work and and share
(38:26):
why they believe what they what they believe, and why
they did what they did. I think there are more
adults out there who are willing to read four or
five thousand words on why somebody did something like that.
Speaker 1 (38:35):
Let's get to Alex, who's calling from Walpole, Massachusetts. Alex,
welcome to the middle go ahead with the governor.
Speaker 16 (38:42):
Hello, thank you for taking my call. I am originally
from Utah, spent many years there, still have a family,
and we're all concerned about the environment and particularly the
Great Salt Lake and it's trajectory, which is not good.
(39:03):
Of course, it depends on the moisture or the precipitation
that occurs there. But yeah, we are watching the water
table being used by industry, often people who have already
kind of outsize influence in terms of.
Speaker 15 (39:25):
The level of.
Speaker 16 (39:30):
Their ability to be listened to or to be heard. Yeah,
I'm just wondering about that.
Speaker 1 (39:35):
Let's take that to the governor. Let me ask about
the great still, like this is a big issue is
in terms of climate change, in terms of industry siphoning
the water off and in different places, and also in
terms of a railroad from the Union Pacific that crosses
the lake and stops it from flowing from one side
to the other. Yeah, so the.
Speaker 4 (39:52):
Issue is not the railroad. There's very little debate issue
around the railroad. We have the ability to raise and
where that it's actually helped us in some ways to
preserve the salinity of the lake in the right places.
But Alex, a great question, and you're absolutely right. This
is one where I can tell you that really good
things are happening. So over the past two years, we've
(40:13):
changed about twenty four laws in Utah. New laws, changed
some old laws. We've moved away from what almost every
state in the West had, this use it or lose
it not mentality, but actually legal structure that incentivize the
wrong behaviors. We've changed that. We have a new Commissioner
of the Great Salt Lake for the first time, someone
who oversees all of the agencies and entities that impact
the lake. We've passed over a billion dollars in water
(40:37):
conservation funding. You talk about industry, industry is actually not
the biggest user of the water. It's agriculture. And I'm
a farmer. Agriculture is very important to our states.
Speaker 1 (40:48):
I would call agriculture industry.
Speaker 4 (40:50):
Sure, and that's fair, but I don't think most people
when they hear industry, most people their minds don't go
to agriculture. It goes to large corporations, not mom and
pop farmers are just trying to trying to get by.
And so look, we've passed over two hundred million dollars
in agriculture optimization funding to help our farmers utilize new
(41:11):
technology which uses much less water. The lake went up
five feet last year, the greatest rise in decades, one
of the biggest rises in our state's history. The water
table is really good again. Our reservoirs are at eighty
two percent right now, thirty percent above where they were
just a year ago, which means more of the water
word about one hundred and fifteen percent of normal right now,
(41:34):
So all of that snowpack is going to go in
the Great Salt Lake. I have never been more confident
about the future of the Great Salt Lake than I
am right now.
Speaker 1 (41:41):
Let's go to Matt, who is in Farmington, Utah. Matt,
go ahead, welcome to the middle. Go ahead with the governor.
Speaker 9 (41:47):
Hi, thanks for taking my call. I wanted to ask
the governor what his personal thoughts are on jerrymandering, and
if the majority of your constituents voted for independent redistricting,
do you think that vote should be honored.
Speaker 4 (42:01):
Good question, Matt, Governor, Yeah, so think you Matt. Obviously,
this is another very controversial topic, and in our state
constitution it says specifically that the legislature gets to draw
the lines. The only way to change that is to
actually change the constitution. Now, there was a vote to
the people to set up an independent redissecting commission, and
(42:24):
all they were allowed to do is to make recommendations. Again,
under the law and the Constitution. Now, I have no
problem with that whatsoever. I think it's I think that's great.
If we want to change the constitution, we need to
change the constitution because that's the legal structure. And so
when the legislature submitted those maps at which they did
(42:44):
with a veto proof majority, I signed that bill because again,
just following the Constitution, it's up to them to do that.
I do have concerns about jerry mandering, I absolutely do,
but I have more concerns about following the Constitution, and
that's what I did. So if if we can change
the Constitution to implement a different way of doing that,
(43:05):
I would support it.
Speaker 1 (43:06):
Let's go to Murray in rural western Minnesota. Hi, Murray, go.
Speaker 6 (43:10):
Ahead, I how are you this evening? A couple comments
real quick, and I'd like your perspective. I think another
Trump term would be an absolute disaster for America because
his history of business dealings and the treatment of other
people is very poor at best, and he seems to
be more interested in ruling than governing and working together
(43:33):
with others. You seem to be a person that wants
to do more of governing and helping rather than ruling
over and a perfect example is the Project twenty twenty
five that seems to fit with his statements of grievance
and retribution, which our country does not need, especially at
this time. So I guess i'd like your opinion, Thanks.
Speaker 1 (43:55):
Murray, Yeah, go ahead, Governor sure, yeah, I think you
doesn't want to talk about Trump.
Speaker 4 (43:59):
I just think four more years of Biden will also
be a disaster. And so you know, I again, I
think it's time for new leadership. I wish we had
new leadership. Seventy to seventy five percent of Americans don't
want either of these of these candidates, and yet here
we are. And so again I believe that we're very
resilient as Americans. I believe that in states, that's where
(44:20):
the innovation is happening. That's where policy work is happening,
because it's not happening in Congress. And I'm grateful to
have amazing governors out there that are doing this work.
And we'll get through these next four years.
Speaker 1 (44:32):
We're getting some comments in online. Brian in Saratoga Springs, Utah, says,
I appreciate Governor Cox admitting that he doesn't always get
it right when disagreeing. One of those gaffes was to
use the word evil to escalate discussion of DEI how
would he change that handling of the situation.
Speaker 4 (44:48):
He's right, He's absolutely right, and I appreciate that. I
you know, I don't follow the political playbook kind of
one oh one. When I screw up, I admit it.
And that was one where I admitted and what I said.
What I said there was that forcing people to submit
a statement of a political ideology that they may not
(45:08):
agree with is borderline evil. I should not have used
those words. Again, my whole campaign, my whole disagree Better
campaign and initiative is about trying to not vilify people.
And while I wasn't referring to people, I was referring
to an idea, and I wished I had done better
on that. I do think that there are very good
people who believe in this ideology. I just think it's
(45:31):
a mistake, and so that's where we have the disagreement.
Speaker 1 (45:34):
I want to just ask you one more thing before
Tolliver has a couple of fun questions for you, and
that is, you're governor of a state that is seventy
seven percent white. How do you think about the rights
of minorities in your role as a governor, whether they
are people of color, LGBTQ, Native Americans, or frankly in
this state democrats.
Speaker 4 (45:52):
Sure, I think we should do everything possible to protect
and respect those rights. And that's if you go and
read this DEI I Build as it's referred to, I
think you'll be really surprised. What it basically says is
government can't discriminate on the basis of of of race.
And so that's that's what we're trying to do. And
I and yet I said, diversity is very important to
(46:12):
our city. So so what we've done is is to
reach out to communities. We want to hire the very
best people, and sometimes those best people don't know where
to apply. We've also been working on education, and that's
where it starts. It's making sure everybody starts from a
level playing field.
Speaker 1 (46:26):
Tolliver, the floor is yours with the governor.
Speaker 4 (46:30):
Am I going to get in trouble here? Is this?
Speaker 2 (46:31):
You're in so much tut I know, I'm so worried
about this. I want to ask you about some of
your favorite things in Utah. You're ready, yes, Okay? Favorite
National park in Utah goh.
Speaker 4 (46:40):
My favorite national park in Utah is Bryce Canyon.
Speaker 1 (46:43):
Okay, love it.
Speaker 2 (46:44):
Favorite ski mountain in Utah.
Speaker 4 (46:48):
We're a Sundance family.
Speaker 1 (46:51):
Sundance is a mountain that's not just like city during Sundance.
Speaker 4 (46:55):
No, no people, just Sundance. It's actually not in Park City.
It's down by pro I grew We grew up in
a small town south at Provo, so we were actually
a ways away from the ski resorts. Sundance was the closest,
and that's where we take our kids.
Speaker 1 (47:07):
Okay, okay.
Speaker 2 (47:08):
And then favorite state outside of Utah.
Speaker 4 (47:12):
Favorites of Utah. I mean, do you ask this to everybody?
I mean, doesn't everyone say Hawaii, Hawaii? Right, It's got
to be Hawaii.
Speaker 2 (47:21):
And then lastly, what's in fry sauce.
Speaker 4 (47:24):
Fry sauce a Utah special. It's it's just a mixture
of ketchup and uh and mayo. So that's that's it.
But it's a big deal. If you ever come to Utah,
you gotta have the frye sauce.
Speaker 1 (47:35):
Governor Cox Spencer Cox, Chair of the National Government Association,
Governor of Utah, thank you so much for coming in.
Speaker 4 (47:41):
Thank you for having me It's been a lot of fun.
I appreciate it, Jeremy.
Speaker 1 (47:44):
And next week, Taliver, we're doing a State of the
Union special right after the President's speech and the Republican response.
We're going to be asking listeners what is your state
of the Union, Not what's the state of your Union,
which would be about your marriage, what is your state
of the Union. I'll be joined by race Warez journalists
race Warez and USA today Chief national political correspondent Philip Bailey.
Speaker 3 (48:02):
Yep.
Speaker 2 (48:02):
And you can call anytime at eight four four four Middle,
or reach out at Listen to the Middle dot com,
where you can sign up for our free weekly newsletter.
Speaker 1 (48:09):
The Middle is brought to you by Long Nook Media,
distributed by Illinois Public Media in Urbana, Illinois, and produced
by joe An Jennings, Harrison Patino, John Barth, and Danny Alexander.
Our technical director is Jason Croft. Our theme music was
composed by Andrew Haig. Special thanks to Kueer for hosting us,
including Christy Miners, Maria O'Meara, Kenzie Walden, Eleanor Gomberg, Elaine Clark,
(48:31):
David Childs, Delaney Plant, Jim Hill, Jenney Paine, Drew Rain,
and Caroline Ballard like ten times the size of the
Middle staff, So thank you to all of them. Thanks
to Nashville Public Radio, iHeartMedia, and the more than four
hundred public radio stations making it possible for people across
the country to listen to the Middle, I'm Jeremy Hobson.
Talk to you next week.
Speaker 3 (49:01):
Two Scouts
Welcome to the Middle. I'm Jeremy Hobson at Kueer in
Salt Lake City, Utah. Tolliver, we have more new listeners
this week.
Speaker 2 (00:13):
Yes, indeed, we have listeners from wu WM in Milwaukee, Wisconsin,
a place that will have a lot of sway in
the upcoming election.
Speaker 1 (00:20):
Absolutely. And did you know, Tolliver, that Wisconsin is famous
for their bloody marys.
Speaker 3 (00:25):
Uh?
Speaker 2 (00:25):
You know what Jeremy I did, and that's.
Speaker 4 (00:27):
Where in that story.
Speaker 1 (00:29):
Yeah, okay, Well it's a perfect transition to where we
are now, which is a state that has a huge
Mormon population and is therefore not famous for its bloody marys.
But our guest this hour is Utah's Governor, Spencer Cox,
a conservative Republican who didn't vote for President Trump and
is in fact vocally anti Trump. We're taking your calls
in a moment at eight four four four Middle, that
is eight four four four six four three three five
(00:49):
three before we get to the governor. Last week, we
asked you if you think it's time to change the
way we nominate our presidential candidates. Many of you said yes.
Take a listen to some of the voicemails that came
in after the show.
Speaker 5 (01:03):
Hi, my name is Barbara Rowland. I am calling from Anchorage, Alaska.
Speaker 3 (01:07):
My name is Chris Alaska. I'm calling from Raleigh, North Carolina.
Speaker 5 (01:12):
Hi. This is Jessica calling from South Belois, Illinois.
Speaker 6 (01:16):
My name is Daniel.
Speaker 7 (01:17):
I'm calling from Kansas City, Missouri. I think we should
talk about what is actually good for the country and
how we can find some middle ground in the midst
of this very polarized environment.
Speaker 5 (01:31):
I wish that nationwide, our pulling places would all open
and close at the same time.
Speaker 3 (01:39):
I'm in favor of doing away with all these state
primaries and Caucasus. I'd like to see a one day
national primary in all the states and territories, and if
there's not a clear winner and have a runoff, we're.
Speaker 5 (01:54):
Always picking the lesser of two evils, voting against who
we don't want instead of voting for who we do want.
Speaker 1 (02:03):
Some great points. Thanks to all of you who called in.
Now do our guest this hour. Utah's governor Spencer Cox.
He is a conservative Republican in a ruby red state.
He has expanded gun rights, cutback regulation, and has tried
to ban most abortions in the state. But he didn't
vote for President Trump in twenty sixteen or twenty twenty,
and he says his party would be making a mistake
(02:25):
if they nominate Trump this year. As chair of the
National Governors Association, Cox is focused on getting his colleagues
in both parties to, as he puts it, disagree better.
Last week, he toasted President Biden at a black tie
dinner at the White House for the governors.
Speaker 8 (02:41):
Mister President, we disagree on many things, and yet all
of the governors in this room are chief executives.
Speaker 4 (02:51):
We know just a very little bit of the.
Speaker 8 (02:54):
Incredible burden that weighs on your shoulders. We can't imagine
what it must be like, the decisions that you have
to make, but we feel a small modicum of that pressure,
and so tonight we honor you. My parents taught me
that we should pray for the leaders of our country.
Mister President, I want you to know that our family
(03:16):
prays for you and your family every night. We pray
that you will be successful, because if you're successful, that
means that the United States of America is successful.
Speaker 9 (03:26):
Well.
Speaker 1 (03:26):
Joining me here in the studio in Salt Lake City
is Spencer Cox, the Republican governor of Utah, governor. Welcome
to the middle.
Speaker 4 (03:32):
Thank you, Jeremy. It's great to be with you.
Speaker 1 (03:34):
And you just don't hear that that often what you
just did there from people in either party talking about
somebody from the other party. Yeah, and it.
Speaker 4 (03:40):
Probably cost me my re election this year. But here
we are.
Speaker 1 (03:42):
Well by the way, you said, you didn't vote for Trump,
you didn't vote for Biden.
Speaker 4 (03:45):
I did not vote for Biden.
Speaker 1 (03:47):
Did you face any blowback from your party just in
the last week for what you just did at the
White House?
Speaker 4 (03:53):
Sure? So very little blowback. I mean, obviously there's blowback.
That's all we do these days, and that's why I'm
so dead catered to depolarization. Look, I don't always get
this right. I make mistakes all of the time. But
I am very concerned about our country and what's happening
out there. Some of the callers, I like some of
those voicemails talking about how polarized we are as a nation.
(04:14):
It used to be normal for two people of different
parties to appear on the same stage together. Again, we
can disagree without hating each other. That's the country I
grew up in, and I think it's the country we
need to get back. I do believe that there's an
exhausted majority out there. When this was released, I did
get blowback. There was a picture that showed me toasting
the president, and I did get a lot of blowback
(04:36):
from that. But when they actually released the audio, I
got positive feedback from a lot of people saying, wow,
thank you. I wish we could do more of that.
Speaker 1 (04:45):
What kind of pressure have you gotten from Trump to
fall in line because this is what she does with
everybody who's step steps out of line.
Speaker 4 (04:51):
Well, look, I'll get pressure from everyone. We have a process,
you know. I agree with your callers, by the way
that the process is okay. I would like to see
a different process for how we nominate our candidates. I
would like to see rotating regional primaries. But look, the
Republican Party gets to choose I don't get to choose
our nominee. And while I think we could win by
(05:13):
very large margins if we nominated literally anyone else, I
think you know, Nikki Hayley, there's some polling that shows
her up by his many's eighteen points over Joe Biden.
But but if she makes it, if she yeah correct,
and she's not going to like you know, I recognize that,
and so my party's going to choose, and they're going
to choose Donald Trump. I also think the Democrats are
(05:34):
making a huge mistake in renominating President Biden. And because
of his age or what yeah, yeah, well, because of
his age, I disagree with many of his policies. I
will tell you. I've also been very vocal that I
do think Donald Trump is going to win this next election.
I feel pretty confident about that because of the age,
because of the border. I think those are the two
biggest issues in this election right now, and I think
(05:57):
President Biden's on the wrong side of both of them.
Speaker 1 (05:59):
Do you worry about US democracy if President Trump wins reelection?
He said he wants to share theater. On day one,
he said he wants to suspend the constitution.
Speaker 4 (06:08):
Well, I don't think he said I want to be
a dictator on day one, but he said some things
that were were.
Speaker 1 (06:12):
I mean, he was asked, you said you want to
be a dictors that's only on day one.
Speaker 4 (06:16):
Well yeah, yeah, look he he he does that. That's
that's that's his and I'm very different. I mean, there's
a reason that I haven't voted for either major party
in twelve years. So so yeah, I have I have
major concerns about democracy in our country, not just when
he's president. I have those concerns right now when he's
not president. Why because because of the polarization. Because you
(06:38):
are our system. This this nation was founded on profound disagreement,
but on our ability, a pluralistic society where lots of
people of different backgrounds, different ethnicities, different points of view,
different races, have the ability to come together. And we
have the system set up that allows us to disagree
(07:00):
and and to battle it out and then to you know,
we win some elections, we lose some elections. What we're
doing now is very different than that. What we're doing
now is a type of polarization, and effective polarization. As
experts have looked at this, where we Republicans and Democrats
aren't that far apart. We think we're farther apart. And
(07:21):
because we think the other side is going to destroy
democracy and willing to do anything to make that happen,
then we allow our side to do the same thing.
And that's incredibly dangerous. And too many in the media
and too many politicians are are taking advantage of that.
They're dividing us for their own gain, and that's going
to lead to a very dark place.
Speaker 1 (07:40):
Well, it's easy to talk about, you know, politicians being
nicer to each other. How do you get that done?
Speaker 4 (07:46):
Sure? Well, so there's there's lots of ways to do
this and one way again, I'm working with my governors
to do this, and I've asked them to engage in this.
Many of them have, and that's where we're getting groups
of people together. For example, we've done this on the
board and on immigration, we had we had twelve governors,
six Republicans and six Democrats. I put them together. We've
(08:06):
been talking about this for months, we've been debating it
back and forth, and that that's healthy conflict. We don't
all agree, but that then we look for areas where
we do agree. And so we need some good examples
out there. But ultimately, we the people have to elect
people who are willing to do things a little differently.
Speaker 1 (08:24):
And we're going to get to the border. We're going
to get to immigration. But let's go to the phones
right now and Mark and Boise Idaho.
Speaker 10 (08:29):
Mark, go ahead, Hi, thanks for thanks for the show.
Speaker 11 (08:33):
Two questions. Actually, before I get to the questions, I'm
kind of like you. You're one of your people on
your show. I'm not there for a main card main
party candidate for forty years, ever since Jimmy Carter in
seventy six, for many of the same reasons he spous.
(08:55):
My question to you actually took questions. Number one is
how viable is a third party candidate in this election?
Number two, If it is viable, just who are the
possible nominees?
Speaker 1 (09:10):
All right, Mark, let me take that to the governor.
Do you think that that a third party candidate would
be viable in the United States in this election? Yeah?
Speaker 4 (09:17):
So, so there's there's been a lot of research on this.
The last kind of third party candidate that we had,
the I mean, wasn't going to win, but that took
a major share of the election was Ross Perrot right
back in the back in the ninety ninety two. Yeah,
ninety two, that's exactly right. So I do think that
that third party candidates are going to pull a much
larger portion of the vote this year. But but I
(09:39):
don't see any of the existing third party candidates right
now doing anything that that I would consider viable. The
big question is will they will they pull votes from
one candidate or the other and as such hand the
election over to someone else. So RFK Junior is is
obviously the most the most popular, the biggest name, Robert F.
Kennedy Junior, having the Ken named behind him. He ran
(10:01):
a Super Bowl ad that was a little controversial, interesting,
and so I do think he'll pull a major portion
of the vote. I do think that we are nearing
the time when if you had the right person, with
the right resources, a big name, somebody who had governed before.
So there is a little bit of a background, people
know what they're getting where somebody actually could be viable.
(10:22):
Look about seventy depending on the polling, seventy to seventy
five percent of the people in the United States don't
want either of these candidates, and so there is a
door open. The problem right now is we just don't
have the right third party candidates. And I will tell
you if you're looking for somebody under the age of seventy,
we have three kind of major I guess ish third
party candidates. None of them are under the age of
seventy either. So it's you know, I don't know gen
(10:45):
x is going to get skipped over.
Speaker 1 (10:46):
The ideal age for a president.
Speaker 4 (10:48):
Well, I don't know, but it's it's I would say
less than that. Less than that. Yes, absolutely, can I
tell you a quick story, Let's.
Speaker 1 (10:55):
Do it right after the break, just because I want
to make sure that we get to some more calls
here and tall, I want to tell you, since we're
speaking of age, that Utah is the youngest state in
America average age thirty one point nine. Maine is the
oldest at forty four point eight.
Speaker 2 (11:08):
Oh my, And did you know that they still do
positive political ads in Utah? Sometimes this is actually and
the governor's raised. Back in twenty twenty, then candidate Cox
actually did an add with his Democratic opponent, Chris Peterson.
Speaker 4 (11:19):
Listen, I'm Chris Peterson and I'm Spencer Cox.
Speaker 1 (11:22):
We are currently in the final days of campaigning against
each other to be your next governor.
Speaker 4 (11:26):
And while I think you should vote for me, yeah,
but really you should vote for me. There are some
things we both agree on.
Speaker 1 (11:32):
We can debate issues without degrading each other's character.
Speaker 4 (11:36):
We can disagree without hating each other and win or lose.
Speaker 1 (11:39):
In Utah, we work together so polite here in Utah. Well,
you can be polite to us too, right now by
going to listen to the Middle dot com if you
appreciate the work that we are doing here at the Middle.
We are trying to raise money as we head into
this crucial election this year, and you can make a
tax deductible contribution in any amount. We are a fifth
of the way towards our goal. So go to listen
(11:59):
to the Middle dot com and we will be right
back with more of the middle. This is the Middle.
I'm Jeremy Hobson. If you're just tuning, in the Middle
is a national call in show. We're focused on elevating
voices from the middle geographically, politically, and philosophically. Or maybe
you just want to meet in the middle this hour.
My guest is Utah Governor Spencer Cox. We're talking about
a range of topics. What questions do you have for
(12:22):
the Governor?
Speaker 2 (12:22):
Yes, give us a call at eight four four four Middle.
That's eight four four four six four three three five three.
Speaker 1 (12:28):
You can also write to us at listening to Sorry
go ahead, Yes, you can write to us at listen
to the Middle dot com. Governor. Before we go back
to the phones, let's talk about immigration. Would you like
to see Congress pass the bill that was passed on
a bipartisan basis in the Senate, but was sidelined in
the House after Donald Trump told Republicans not to support
it because he didn't want to give President Biden to
(12:49):
win an election year.
Speaker 4 (12:51):
So to be clear, there was a bill that was
not passed in the Senate. It didn't get a vote
in the Senate. That was the one that Donald Trump opposed.
There was another bill of funding bill that was passed
later that has not gotten a hearing in the House yet.
I did. I had lots of problems with the first one.
The second one is a funding bill only, and yes,
I would like to see funding passed. Congress has to
do something, and they're they're not. They've kicked the can
(13:13):
down on What about the.
Speaker 1 (13:15):
Bill though, that you were talking about, the first one
that was James Langford, the Republican from Oklahoma, had been
working on for a very long time on a bipartisan basis.
It was seen as a very tough immigration bill, kind
of almost everything Republicans wanted.
Speaker 4 (13:25):
Yeah, well, not everything Republicans wanted or would have passed
with Republican support, And I think that was part of
the problem. The part of the the problem. There was
that that bill was negotiated with a very small group
of people without the input of his colleagues, and that's again,
the Congress is broken right now. That's not how we
do things in Utah. Tomorrow's the last day of the
legislative session we've been negotiating. Everybody gets a chance to
(13:47):
weigh in on those pieces of legislation. It didn't happen,
didn't even get a vote. Again, I think it's a mistake.
I think more has to be done. I had problems
with that bill. But let's start somewhere.
Speaker 1 (13:58):
Okay, so let's get outside of the Washington bubble. What
would you like to see done on immigration?
Speaker 4 (14:01):
Yeah, so, obviously we need more funding for the border.
I've talked to the president about that. We know we
need to do that. We need a president who's actually
willing to enforce existing law on the border, which which
hasn't been happening over the past couple of years. So
that's something that the desperately needs to change.
Speaker 1 (14:15):
And meaning, what, what would you have him do to
enforce the existing laws on the border.
Speaker 4 (14:19):
Yeah, well, again, I think he has he has lots
of options. We have National guardsmen he can call out
to go down there and work on the border. We've
done that before under both the Trump and Biden administration.
He could do that. There's more that can be done.
We have to make some changes when it comes to
asylum laws. Now there is an argument, and I had
this argument with the President that he could he could,
(14:41):
he could start enforcing those asylum laws differently at the border.
His attorneys are telling him that he can't do that.
So that's that's a piece of discussion. But the Congress
if he if he's not willing to do it, then
Congress needs to make a change there.
Speaker 1 (14:54):
What about the people who are already here.
Speaker 4 (14:56):
Illegally, sure, well, we need to fix legal immigration, and
there's there's lots of debate over what that looks like. Certainly,
we've we we've got to stop incentivizing people from coming here.
I think there's there's historically been broad consensus over over
Dreamers and and DAKA.
Speaker 1 (15:13):
So again, we just have to see what about everybody else?
I mean, Nikki Haley and Donald Trump have called for
deporting everybody who's in the country illegally, millions, millions apiece.
Speaker 4 (15:22):
Not gonna happen, Not gonna happen, Not gonna happen. There's
no way that's so what do you do? So so
we again, we've got to we've got to be smart
about it, so you start working. We actually passed a
comprehensive immigration reform in Utah about eleven years ago. Eleven
or twelve years ago. We were the first state to
do it. We passed it, and then uh sadly, uh
President Obama wouldn't let us implement it, and then President
(15:43):
Trump wouldn't let us implement it. And what we did
in Utah I think was very fascinating. What we did
was everybody had to come out of the shadows that
they had to register with the state. They had to
pay a fine that they did not get citizenship, but
they could get a work permit for for for after
they paid that fine, so they would get a work
permit that would then allow them to work, which most
of them were already doing but doing it illegally. They
(16:05):
would start paying taxes. If anything happened, they would get deported.
If any laws were broken, they would immediately get deported
and then they would have to get in line just
like everybody else, but they would go to the back
of the line. If they were deported after having no again,
if they broke the law and were deported, then they left.
But for the people who were here and not breaking
any other laws except of course being here illegally, right,
(16:27):
then they would have to go to the back of
the line when it comes to working through and trying
to get legal immigration status.
Speaker 1 (16:34):
Let's go to the phones, because we've got a lot
of calls. I want to keep it g rated now,
please callers. Jenna is in Provo Utah, not far away. Jenna,
welcome to the middle Go ahead with the governor.
Speaker 12 (16:45):
I'm wondering you've seen your support for the state of
Israel and.
Speaker 13 (16:48):
For Jewish Utons.
Speaker 12 (16:49):
I'm glad to know that you support Jewish utons. But
now that more than ten thousand children and thousands of
other innocent civilians refugees have been deliberately killed using US
weapons and all of our taxes, will you retract your
support for the Israeli government or state your support for
Palestinian utons or for Americans with family members dying and
dead in Gaza.
Speaker 4 (17:09):
Go ahead, Governor, thank you, thanks for the call. Of course,
it cared deeply about Palestinian Utons who are living here,
and we we have many incredible Palestinian Utans that are
that are here and are our hearts are broken for
for what's happening in in Gaza and the terrible tragedies
that have happened because of Hamas and Uh No, I
(17:30):
will not retract my support for Israel. I I do
support Israel and uh this this could end tomorrow. All
Hamas has to do is surrender and uh and and
the war is over, and so I would encourage them
to do that. Hamas rejected a cease fire that was
that President Biden was working on this this this week,
and I think that was a huge mistake on behalf
(17:52):
of a Maas. That's not to say that Israel hasn't
made mistakes, but but I I believe that Hamas has
the power to end this.
Speaker 1 (18:00):
A lot of Democrats, as we just saw in Michigan,
are very angry at President Biden for his handling of this,
even though he has, you know, said that Israel's reaction
has been quote over the top. Do you how do
you feel about President Biden's handling of the situation in
Israel Gaza.
Speaker 4 (18:17):
Well, again that we probably have some differences, but I
do appreciate that the President has been supportive of Israel.
Israel after October seventh and the attack that happened there,
And yeah, I think that shows the extremism in our country.
You've we've talked a lot about extremism on the right,
but there is extremism on the left, and I think
you're seeing it in that case as well.
Speaker 1 (18:38):
Let's go to Rebecca, who is in Minnesota. Rebecca, go ahead,
welcome to the middle.
Speaker 14 (18:45):
Yes, I just had to say that it's truly refreshing
to hear the speech by the governor that could speak
with decency, in a respectful manner, recognizing and acknowledging the
good things that President Biden has done and not feeling
(19:05):
like he has to attack him like it so often happens.
And this type of speech just makes me feel so much.
Speaker 13 (19:21):
More like we.
Speaker 14 (19:22):
Can work together when somebody is able to make a
speech like that. And I just feel like the loss
of decorum in our government is just incredible, and I
wish we could demand a more respectful attitude and not
(19:44):
let people get away with attacking. So that's all.
Speaker 1 (19:48):
Right, what I wanted to say, Thank you, Rebecca, Thank
you for that. I'm sure the governors thank you for no.
Speaker 4 (19:53):
No, thank you. Look, I promised four years ago that
I would run a positive campaign, that I wouldn't run
any negative ads against my opponents in the Republican primary
or my Democratic component, and we were able to keep
that promise, one of the few races in the country
where that happened. And I've made I've made the same
promise again this year as I'm up for reelection, that
I will run a positive campaign and on a negative campaign,
(20:15):
and it's it's pretty rare these days, but I'm hoping
that it will catch on.
Speaker 1 (20:19):
So I want to ask you this because I've been
speaking with many Utahs since I have been here in
Salt Lake City, some of whom voted for you, and
I have heard from a number of people that they
were very happy with you until the last six months
or so, and specifically on the issue of trans rights,
because you have you you vetoed a bill that would
(20:41):
have banned trans girls in girls' sports in this state,
but then it was overridden by the legislature. But then
you came out and banned gender affirming care for minors,
and you recently just called it gender mutilation.
Speaker 4 (20:53):
I believe well, and again I apologize for that that
statement that was, you know, I misspoke. I should not
have referred to it as that. But look, we've worked
very closely with the transgender community here and there are
differences of opinion on this very subject, and I was
(21:13):
overridden in that veto early on. And you know these
other bills that you talked about past with the veto
proof majority as well. That being said, there were ports
of those bills that I think were very important that
were different than some of the bills that you've seen
in other countries, I'm sorry, in other states, and I
think that's one of the mistakes we do. You know,
ninety nine percent of the people I've talked to about
(21:34):
these bills have never read them, have never looked at them,
have no idea what's in them. They just read the headline.
You know, there's a bathroom ban, right, that's all they see,
not realizing that one of the things we did in
that bill was to was to require and these are
just in public facilities. It only applies to public facilities
that there are unisex bathrooms, and so every new facility
(21:55):
will be built with unisex bathrooms, and existing facilities will
need to be retrofited to accommodate people so that we
don't have these clashes and these issues. We're trying to
protect women as well who felt uncomfortable, and so that's
that's what we're trying.
Speaker 1 (22:09):
But then why ban gender affirming care for miners who
have the miners themselves obviously have decided they want to
do it, their parents, I would assume in many cases
have also said that they're okay with it, and the
doctor has said that they're okay with it.
Speaker 4 (22:20):
Sure, what we ban lots of things for miners that
we don't allow miners to do, and there there is,
despite what we hear in the United States, there is
broad disagreement over the nature of this care. There are
lots of European countries, very progressive European countries, that are
stepping back in a major way from what we've been doing.
(22:43):
Seeing is this is dangerous. We don't know what the
long term effects of this are and and something is
happening out there as as thousands and thousands.
Speaker 1 (22:51):
What we do know though, is that trans youth are
very likely to consider and even try to take their
own life, to consider suicide. How do you balance that,
because when you when you come out and say they're
not allowed to be who they believe that they are.
Aren't you putting them at risk of doing something terrible?
Speaker 4 (23:13):
Well, that's that's certainly an argument. But I would also argue,
and and again, the data shows this that that those
young people who have transitioned are still at a very
high rate of of mental health disorders and potential suicide.
There's there's no proof that this is solving the problem.
(23:35):
And so what we did, again different than every other state.
We put a million dollars aside for for therapy for
kids who are facing this, so again trying to find
something positive and once they turn eighteen, once their brains
are more fully formed, and then they can make that
decision for themselves.
Speaker 1 (23:52):
I want to go to another person in the state
of Utah. Peter is in Bountiful, Utah. Peter, go ahead,
welcome to the middle.
Speaker 15 (24:00):
Thank you, Governor Cox. Frankly, I was really surprised to
hear that you opposed President Trump. It feels to me
that there we're in a very much a red state. Now,
if I can bring it back to the issue of
President Trump. When Navalney died, electing Navalney, I immediately thought
of what seems to me to be an approach by
(24:24):
Trump to be more authoritarian, and I guess I would
like to know whether you have similar opinions or what
do you think would be the outcome if he's reelected
or when he's reelected, if you believe that'll be the case.
Speaker 4 (24:35):
Sure, yeah, No, I do think he'll be reelected. And again,
the Republicans are are going to make that decision, and
it looks like he is going to be the nominee.
We do have Super Tuesday coming up, and they're still
a candidate out there. In fact, Nikki Haley was here
in Utah campaigning just yesterday. But I think the writing
on the wall is pretty clear. And look, I again,
(24:56):
as as somebody who has who has based my career
on trying to treat other people with respect. Obviously, President
Trump has a very different approach to that, and that's
where we disagree. I don't hate President Trump, and I would.
I've worked with President Trump in the past. I will
work with him again. If you wonder what it will
be like, I think it will be a lot like
the first time, you know, and we made it through
(25:18):
that time, and we made it through the last four years.
Speaker 1 (25:20):
So I feel very depend the first time there was
a yeah which was great at the capital.
Speaker 4 (25:25):
Which which was not great. It really wasn't. And I think,
by the way, I'm convinced we will see more of that.
And I'm convinced we will see more of that if
President Trump wins in the first in this next election,
and I think we'll see some of the same behavior
on the left. You do, I absolutely somewhat, because I
saw it in twenty sixteen, and I saw it in
twenty twenty leading up to that, with the writing that
(25:48):
was happening in many parts of the country. I can
tell you the first time I got worried about about
elections was in twenty sixteen when I went to certify
the election. I was a lieutenant governor of Utah, and
no one has ever showed up to a certification of election.
It's a perfunctory thing that we do. I showed up,
there was a room full of one hundred people who
were screaming and trying to convince us not to certify
(26:11):
the election of Donald Trump. Those weren't Republicans that were
doing that. Those were Democrats that had showed up that way.
And so I was convinced when I filmed that ad
with my opponent that you guys ran. The reason we
did that is because I was talking with a friend
and we were worried that if Donald Trump won again,
the left was going to burn it down, and if
(26:32):
Joe Biden won, the right was going to shoot it up.
And sure enough, Joe Biden ran and we had one
and we had January sixth.
Speaker 1 (26:39):
Let's go to another call from Ethel who is in Wassaw, Wisconsin. Hi, Ethol,
welcome to the middle.
Speaker 13 (26:47):
Hello, thank you for having me and Jeremy, and I'm
probably gonna talk fast because I have three points I'd
love to share it.
Speaker 1 (26:53):
Okay, go quick.
Speaker 13 (26:54):
Yeah, but ticking from the top, Governor, you mentioned that
the last time there was a third party candidate it
was nineteen ninety two and that was Ross Pearl, And
I think having a third party candidate candidate gives us
an opportunity to like have pause, maybe a time out
between the two battling parties that are at the top.
(27:15):
You mentioned RFD Junior being one of the third party candidates,
but then you said there was like three of them.
Who are the other two? So that's point one, Go.
Speaker 4 (27:24):
Ahead, Governor, Yeah, so you're catching me I'm trying to
think Jill Stein is one of Cornell West is the
other one.
Speaker 1 (27:31):
Yeah, I think we're gonna have to leave it at
just one point. Ethel, I'm sorry to say, because Tolliver,
we're live here in Salt Lake City, and even though,
as we've been saying, the state of Utah SKU is
largely Republican, there are still some stark differences of opinion
within the party here.
Speaker 2 (27:46):
Yes, absolutely, Actually both Utah Senators Mitt Romney and Mike
Lee are Republicans, but they differ quite a bit on
the former president.
Speaker 4 (27:53):
Take a listen, here's what I know. Donald Trump is
a phony, a fraud.
Speaker 1 (27:58):
Yes, neither the temperament nor the judgment to be president.
Speaker 3 (28:01):
The American people need a return of Donald Trump.
Speaker 1 (28:04):
They need the return of someone who was willing to
secure our border, was willing to look out for American interests,
not those of our adversaries, not those of foreign countries.
Governor Cox, how do you explain that Utah has elected
both Mitt Romney and Mike Lee to people with very
different approaches to politics.
Speaker 4 (28:21):
Sure, Look, this is let me just say more broadly,
this is one of the problems we've just spent you know,
we've just spent forty minutes mostly talking about one person, right,
Donald Trump. And I'm just that those two people, Mitt
Romney and Mike Lee really aren't that different. If you
look at their voting records, there very similar. In fact,
Mitt Romney voted with Donald Trump more than Mike Lee did.
(28:44):
That's a shock to most people. And so we've become
so obsessed with this, and I believe this is one
of the problems in our country today, is that the
presidency has an outsized influence on all of us. And
that's something that started, you know early, well maybe back
in the seventies, sixties and seventies with the imperial presidency
(29:04):
and the rise of the importance of the presidency and
the power that they have, where Congress has seated so
much of their power because they're dyfunctional over to the president.
But I'm just I just want to say, like, I
don't believe that this is the end of our country,
regardless of who wins, and the fact that so many
people believe that heightens the stakes and then makes us
do crazy things like January sixth.
Speaker 1 (29:25):
Why do you think so many people believe that? Well,
because if you don't think it's true. Why do you
think so many people believe.
Speaker 4 (29:31):
I don't think it should be true. I'm not saying
it's not true. It's a perception thing. And part of
that is because politics has become entertainment for so many
of us, and politics has become religion for so many
of us. It's very unhealthy. I didn't know who the
Republicans and Democrats were in my small town. I grew
up in town, twelve hundred people, my congregation. I didn't
know who they were. That was the last thing we
(29:52):
knew who. You know, we were Americans. First, we were Utah
and second we were Utah jazz fans. Third who lost
to Night. But we were Republicans the Democrats way down
the list, and we should get back to that.
Speaker 1 (30:00):
We are speaking with Utah Governor Spencer Cox. More of
your calls coming up on the middle. This is the middle.
I'm Jeremy Hobson. If you're just joining us, I'm at
KUER in Salt Lake City. I'm here with Utah's Republican
Governor Spencer Cox. Our number is eight four four four middle.
That is eight four four four six four three three
five three. Or you can reach out to us at
listen to themiddle dot com. Before we go back to
(30:22):
the phones, let me ask you about a couple of
more things. Governor Utah passed a first in the nation
ban on abortion clinics. You signed it into law. It's
on hold in the courts. We've been hearing over the
last week or so about what happened in Alabama, another
state with very strict laws on abortion. The Supreme Court
ruled that embryo should be afforded the same protection as
(30:43):
all humans in relation to in vitro fertilization. What's your
position as a Republican on IVF? Keeping in mind, by
the way, I have read the fact that you've written
about the fact that your wife was a surrogate for
your sister trail.
Speaker 5 (30:58):
Yeah.
Speaker 4 (30:59):
Yeah, I love the miracle of IVF, the miracle of
technology that allows us, uh, the opportunity for families who
otherwise would not be able to to bring children into
this world. Really special experience. My wife was a gestational carrier,
as it's referred to. My I have a sister with
sistic fibrosis. She she had had a baby and and
(31:19):
and almost died. I mean she she she did die.
They brought her back and doctors told her she could
not have another child. She felt very strongly that that
she was supposed to have another child, and and we
thought we were done having children. And this, through the
miracle of IVF, this child, my wife was just the oven.
This child was all the product of my sister and
(31:39):
her husband. So, uh, fertilized egg from my sister and
her husband was implanted into my wife via the IVF process.
And uh and my my my nephew, who's who's gosh
now twelve years old, incredible young man, So proud of him.
And uh and I'm grateful that your favorite, very very much.
Speaker 1 (32:00):
What about the issue of an embryo though, how do
you square the support of IVF with the opposition to abortion?
Speaker 4 (32:06):
Sure, yeah, so again, I haven't read that case, and
so it's a very My understanding is it's it's it's
a legal rendering based on a law and interpretation of
that law. And so I again, when life begins, that's
that's up for debate. I know there's a lot of
debate around that, but I I don't think that these
issues are are as closely aligned as as as many
(32:29):
have have led us to believe. Other than this case,
no other state has had any problems navigating between the
two with with some abortion restrictions and allowing IVF to continue.
And so I, you know, we don't have a problem
with you.
Speaker 1 (32:40):
So you don't believe that an embryo is a human.
Speaker 4 (32:42):
Being, an embryo outside of the mother. I I it's
a potential human being. It could become a human being.
But it's it's it's not it's it's it's it's two
cells once once they start to grow within the womb.
Then that's that's different for me.
Speaker 1 (32:57):
And so what about for in terms of your ban
on abortion clinics, as we said as a hold in
the course, Yeah, why do that?
Speaker 4 (33:03):
Well, there's lots of reasons. Again for those of us
who who don't believe in abortion, and I know many
of your listeners do and and that's okay. We uh
we we have passed an abortion band in our state
with with with the three you know, major exemptions, the
the life and the mother, rape and incest. And so
that's where that's where we've drawn the line. And that's
(33:23):
the that's the thing I love about our system. And
I think a mistake that was made by Supreme Court
forty years ago with Roe V. Wade is that we
can allow different states to do different things, and that's
I believe that that's the way it should be.
Speaker 1 (33:36):
Let's go to John, who is in Ogden, Utah, not
far from here. John, welcome to the middle Go ahead.
Speaker 10 (33:43):
Hi, thank you, it's nice to be able to talk
to you, Governor Cox. I've lived here my whole life.
I'm a Utah through and through. I love the state,
but I'm a member of the LGBT community, and I
have to admit I'm anxious. I'm nervous the country why
but large is nervous on this issue, but my whole life,
I can't help but notice this state feels like a
(34:06):
soft theocracy. I feel as though the specter of the
church is always somewhere in the legislative process, more so
than I think it should be. And I respect the
LDS Church, and I have a lot of LDS friends
like it's a very nice institution at times, but I
believe it has very problematic parts that are unduly affecting
(34:27):
my life and others like me, and I wanted to
know your opinions on that.
Speaker 4 (34:30):
Yeah, thanks, John. You know I get this question a lot,
and I understand it obviously that when people live in
a state with where a majority of people belong to
a religion or any one group, there's definitely going to
be feelings like that. I can tell you, you know,
and you can believe me or not believe me, but
I almost never hear from the Church on issues of
(34:52):
policy on things related to the legislative session. I've had
one conversation within this session, and it was actually a
out land downtown and what downtown is going to look
like if there's going to be a new arena built
downtown for hockey. That's the literally the only feedback I've
gotten on any bill this year. And it wasn't even
on a bill. It was us seeking them out because
(35:13):
they're one of the major landowners downtown. So so I
understand that I will say that that that I there
has been a change in the Church and their approach
to many of these issues, especially those affecting the LGBTQ community.
And you know, the one bill I have seen them
way in on recently was one in Congress to uh
(35:34):
in support of gay marriage, which I think was a
surprise to a lot of people. In fact, all four
members of Congress of the House of representatives from Utah.
Conservative Republicans voted in favor of putting gay marriage into
law and h and and one of our two senators
did that as well. And so I'm I'm assuming you
(35:55):
were supportive of the church wing in there. So so
you know, perhaps in the past, before I was governor,
the Church kind of put their finger on the scale
or weigh in with a more heavy hand. Now, now
all of that being said, you do have members of
the Church who are elected. And you don't check your
religion at the door when you go to when you
go to legislate. Now, you do legislate on behalf of everyone,
(36:17):
but the things you believe in your principles. You know,
conservative Republicans who also happen to be members of the
Church of Jesus Christ of Latter day Saints are more
likely to vote for similar things. There's no questions. But
I can tell you that many of our liberal members
of the House and Senate in Utah are also members
of the Church.
Speaker 1 (36:36):
I want to ask you about something else that's come
up in the news here. Utah is one of the
first states to ban diversity, equity and inclusion or DEI
in state institutions. You signed a bill that prohibits any program, office,
or initiative that has DEI in its name or asserts
that meritocracy is inherently racist or sexist. That is certainly
something that's up for debate around the country. But what
(36:58):
I noticed is that when you started your administration, the
very first proclamation you signed as governor was a pledge
on racial equity, diversity and inclusion. So what has changed
for you in the last four years.
Speaker 4 (37:10):
Yeah, So again, this is one where I would encourage
people to go read the bill because it's very different
than all the other states that have done this that
have prohibited DEI. And in our state, we do believe
in diversity. The diversity is very important. I do believe
in an inclusion and that's where that's what I signed
when I came into office, and I still believe in
those principles. Sadly, that's not what's happening, especially on college campuses,
(37:34):
and that's where this was mainly pointed, was towards our
college campuses where we're requiring professors and others who were
hiring to submit a written statement, almost a pledge towards
an ideology which is different than the words. And this
is where we're talking past each other. I don't have
time tonight to answer all of that, but what I
(37:55):
will say is I wrote five thousand words on diversity, equity,
inclusion and why I signed that bill, and I hope
you'll all google it and go read.
Speaker 1 (38:03):
Do you like to write big pieces about what you think.
Speaker 4 (38:06):
Because look, we need more of this, you guys. We've
gotten so dumb as Americans, where we only talk in
sound bites on cable news and in two hundred and
eighty characters. These are very deep and philosophical discussions that
we need to be having, and very very few politicians
are actually willing to do the work and and share
(38:26):
why they believe what they what they believe, and why
they did what they did. I think there are more
adults out there who are willing to read four or
five thousand words on why somebody did something like that.
Speaker 1 (38:35):
Let's get to Alex, who's calling from Walpole, Massachusetts. Alex,
welcome to the middle go ahead with the governor.
Speaker 16 (38:42):
Hello, thank you for taking my call. I am originally
from Utah, spent many years there, still have a family,
and we're all concerned about the environment and particularly the
Great Salt Lake and it's trajectory, which is not good.
(39:03):
Of course, it depends on the moisture or the precipitation
that occurs there. But yeah, we are watching the water
table being used by industry, often people who have already
kind of outsize influence in terms of.
Speaker 15 (39:25):
The level of.
Speaker 16 (39:30):
Their ability to be listened to or to be heard. Yeah,
I'm just wondering about that.
Speaker 1 (39:35):
Let's take that to the governor. Let me ask about
the great still, like this is a big issue is
in terms of climate change, in terms of industry siphoning
the water off and in different places, and also in
terms of a railroad from the Union Pacific that crosses
the lake and stops it from flowing from one side
to the other. Yeah, so the.
Speaker 4 (39:52):
Issue is not the railroad. There's very little debate issue
around the railroad. We have the ability to raise and
where that it's actually helped us in some ways to
preserve the salinity of the lake in the right places.
But Alex, a great question, and you're absolutely right. This
is one where I can tell you that really good
things are happening. So over the past two years, we've
(40:13):
changed about twenty four laws in Utah. New laws, changed
some old laws. We've moved away from what almost every
state in the West had, this use it or lose
it not mentality, but actually legal structure that incentivize the
wrong behaviors. We've changed that. We have a new Commissioner
of the Great Salt Lake for the first time, someone
who oversees all of the agencies and entities that impact
the lake. We've passed over a billion dollars in water
(40:37):
conservation funding. You talk about industry, industry is actually not
the biggest user of the water. It's agriculture. And I'm
a farmer. Agriculture is very important to our states.
Speaker 1 (40:48):
I would call agriculture industry.
Speaker 4 (40:50):
Sure, and that's fair, but I don't think most people
when they hear industry, most people their minds don't go
to agriculture. It goes to large corporations, not mom and
pop farmers are just trying to trying to get by.
And so look, we've passed over two hundred million dollars
in agriculture optimization funding to help our farmers utilize new
(41:11):
technology which uses much less water. The lake went up
five feet last year, the greatest rise in decades, one
of the biggest rises in our state's history. The water
table is really good again. Our reservoirs are at eighty
two percent right now, thirty percent above where they were
just a year ago, which means more of the water
word about one hundred and fifteen percent of normal right now,
(41:34):
So all of that snowpack is going to go in
the Great Salt Lake. I have never been more confident
about the future of the Great Salt Lake than I
am right now.
Speaker 1 (41:41):
Let's go to Matt, who is in Farmington, Utah. Matt,
go ahead, welcome to the middle. Go ahead with the governor.
Speaker 9 (41:47):
Hi, thanks for taking my call. I wanted to ask
the governor what his personal thoughts are on jerrymandering, and
if the majority of your constituents voted for independent redistricting,
do you think that vote should be honored.
Speaker 4 (42:01):
Good question, Matt, Governor, Yeah, so think you Matt. Obviously,
this is another very controversial topic, and in our state
constitution it says specifically that the legislature gets to draw
the lines. The only way to change that is to
actually change the constitution. Now, there was a vote to
the people to set up an independent redissecting commission, and
(42:24):
all they were allowed to do is to make recommendations. Again,
under the law and the Constitution. Now, I have no
problem with that whatsoever. I think it's I think that's great.
If we want to change the constitution, we need to
change the constitution because that's the legal structure. And so
when the legislature submitted those maps at which they did
(42:44):
with a veto proof majority, I signed that bill because again,
just following the Constitution, it's up to them to do that.
I do have concerns about jerry mandering, I absolutely do,
but I have more concerns about following the Constitution, and
that's what I did. So if if we can change
the Constitution to implement a different way of doing that,
(43:05):
I would support it.
Speaker 1 (43:06):
Let's go to Murray in rural western Minnesota. Hi, Murray, go.
Speaker 6 (43:10):
Ahead, I how are you this evening? A couple comments
real quick, and I'd like your perspective. I think another
Trump term would be an absolute disaster for America because
his history of business dealings and the treatment of other
people is very poor at best, and he seems to
be more interested in ruling than governing and working together
(43:33):
with others. You seem to be a person that wants
to do more of governing and helping rather than ruling
over and a perfect example is the Project twenty twenty
five that seems to fit with his statements of grievance
and retribution, which our country does not need, especially at
this time. So I guess i'd like your opinion, Thanks.
Speaker 1 (43:55):
Murray, Yeah, go ahead, Governor sure, yeah, I think you
doesn't want to talk about Trump.
Speaker 4 (43:59):
I just think four more years of Biden will also
be a disaster. And so you know, I again, I
think it's time for new leadership. I wish we had
new leadership. Seventy to seventy five percent of Americans don't
want either of these of these candidates, and yet here
we are. And so again I believe that we're very
resilient as Americans. I believe that in states, that's where
(44:20):
the innovation is happening. That's where policy work is happening,
because it's not happening in Congress. And I'm grateful to
have amazing governors out there that are doing this work.
And we'll get through these next four years.
Speaker 1 (44:32):
We're getting some comments in online. Brian in Saratoga Springs, Utah, says,
I appreciate Governor Cox admitting that he doesn't always get
it right when disagreeing. One of those gaffes was to
use the word evil to escalate discussion of DEI how
would he change that handling of the situation.
Speaker 4 (44:48):
He's right, He's absolutely right, and I appreciate that. I
you know, I don't follow the political playbook kind of
one oh one. When I screw up, I admit it.
And that was one where I admitted and what I said.
What I said there was that forcing people to submit
a statement of a political ideology that they may not
(45:08):
agree with is borderline evil. I should not have used
those words. Again, my whole campaign, my whole disagree Better
campaign and initiative is about trying to not vilify people.
And while I wasn't referring to people, I was referring
to an idea, and I wished I had done better
on that. I do think that there are very good
people who believe in this ideology. I just think it's
(45:31):
a mistake, and so that's where we have the disagreement.
Speaker 1 (45:34):
I want to just ask you one more thing before
Tolliver has a couple of fun questions for you, and
that is, you're governor of a state that is seventy
seven percent white. How do you think about the rights
of minorities in your role as a governor, whether they
are people of color, LGBTQ, Native Americans, or frankly in
this state democrats.
Speaker 4 (45:52):
Sure, I think we should do everything possible to protect
and respect those rights. And that's if you go and
read this DEI I Build as it's referred to, I
think you'll be really surprised. What it basically says is
government can't discriminate on the basis of of of race.
And so that's that's what we're trying to do. And
I and yet I said, diversity is very important to
(46:12):
our city. So so what we've done is is to
reach out to communities. We want to hire the very
best people, and sometimes those best people don't know where
to apply. We've also been working on education, and that's
where it starts. It's making sure everybody starts from a
level playing field.
Speaker 1 (46:26):
Tolliver, the floor is yours with the governor.
Speaker 4 (46:30):
Am I going to get in trouble here? Is this?
Speaker 2 (46:31):
You're in so much tut I know, I'm so worried
about this. I want to ask you about some of
your favorite things in Utah. You're ready, yes, Okay? Favorite
National park in Utah goh.
Speaker 4 (46:40):
My favorite national park in Utah is Bryce Canyon.
Speaker 1 (46:43):
Okay, love it.
Speaker 2 (46:44):
Favorite ski mountain in Utah.
Speaker 4 (46:48):
We're a Sundance family.
Speaker 1 (46:51):
Sundance is a mountain that's not just like city during Sundance.
Speaker 4 (46:55):
No, no people, just Sundance. It's actually not in Park City.
It's down by pro I grew We grew up in
a small town south at Provo, so we were actually
a ways away from the ski resorts. Sundance was the closest,
and that's where we take our kids.
Speaker 1 (47:07):
Okay, okay.
Speaker 2 (47:08):
And then favorite state outside of Utah.
Speaker 4 (47:12):
Favorites of Utah. I mean, do you ask this to everybody?
I mean, doesn't everyone say Hawaii, Hawaii? Right, It's got
to be Hawaii.
Speaker 2 (47:21):
And then lastly, what's in fry sauce.
Speaker 4 (47:24):
Fry sauce a Utah special. It's it's just a mixture
of ketchup and uh and mayo. So that's that's it.
But it's a big deal. If you ever come to Utah,
you gotta have the frye sauce.
Speaker 1 (47:35):
Governor Cox Spencer Cox, Chair of the National Government Association,
Governor of Utah, thank you so much for coming in.
Speaker 4 (47:41):
Thank you for having me It's been a lot of fun.
I appreciate it, Jeremy.
Speaker 1 (47:44):
And next week, Taliver, we're doing a State of the
Union special right after the President's speech and the Republican response.
We're going to be asking listeners what is your state
of the Union, Not what's the state of your Union,
which would be about your marriage, what is your state
of the Union. I'll be joined by race Warez journalists
race Warez and USA today Chief national political correspondent Philip Bailey.
Speaker 3 (48:02):
Yep.
Speaker 2 (48:02):
And you can call anytime at eight four four four Middle,
or reach out at Listen to the Middle dot com,
where you can sign up for our free weekly newsletter.
Speaker 1 (48:09):
The Middle is brought to you by Long Nook Media,
distributed by Illinois Public Media in Urbana, Illinois, and produced
by joe An Jennings, Harrison Patino, John Barth, and Danny Alexander.
Our technical director is Jason Croft. Our theme music was
composed by Andrew Haig. Special thanks to Kueer for hosting us,
including Christy Miners, Maria O'Meara, Kenzie Walden, Eleanor Gomberg, Elaine Clark,
(48:31):
David Childs, Delaney Plant, Jim Hill, Jenney Paine, Drew Rain,
and Caroline Ballard like ten times the size of the
Middle staff, So thank you to all of them. Thanks
to Nashville Public Radio, iHeartMedia, and the more than four
hundred public radio stations making it possible for people across
the country to listen to the Middle, I'm Jeremy Hobson.
Talk to you next week.
Speaker 3 (49:01):
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