January 19, 2024 • 49 mins
A recent presidential election in Taiwan is expected to escalate geopolitical tensions in the region - especially with The People's Republic of China. That's why tonight on "The Middle with Jeremy Hobson," we're asking our listeners: What should the US's relationship with China look like? Jeremy is joined by Former US Ambassador to China Gary Locke, and CNN Senior International Correspondent Will Ripley in Taipei. The Middle's house DJ Tolliver joins as well, plus callers from around the country.
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Speaker 1 (00:05):
Welcome to the Middle. I'm Jeremy Hobson along here with Tolliver.
Speaker 2 (00:08):
Hi.
Speaker 1 (00:08):
Tolliver, Hello, Jeremy. I have two exciting pieces of news
to tell you, but not until the end of the show,
so stand by. Okay. So we had the Iowa caucuses.
Former President Trump won as expected. He is now sending
out surrogates to say the race is over, but things
could change in the coming days when New Hampshire votes.
After all, only about one hundred and ten thousand people
(00:30):
voted in the Iowa caucuses. That's about fifteen percent of
the state's registered Republicans. Meanwhile, in Taiwan, almost seventy five
percent of its people voted in the presidential election over
the weekend and elevated the vice president Lai Chinta, which
is not what China wanted to happen because President elect
Lai has advocated for Taiwan's independence, and we're going to
(00:52):
get to that in a moment. As we take your
calls at eight four to four four Middle, that's eight
four four four six four three three five three, we're
asking what do you think the US relationship with China
should look like? But first, last week we talked about
another hot topic, which was immigration and border security. We
got a lot of calls and a lot of voicemails.
Listen to this.
Speaker 3 (01:12):
Hello, my name is John from Kansas City, Missouri.
Speaker 4 (01:15):
My name is Lucia. I'm calling from Los Angeles, California.
Speaker 2 (01:19):
II.
Speaker 5 (01:20):
This is Jorge from Minnesota.
Speaker 6 (01:22):
My name is Brenda. I'm growing from Texas.
Speaker 5 (01:24):
I believe that the border.
Speaker 7 (01:26):
Is supposed to be secure.
Speaker 3 (01:28):
It is a complex issue, but if we cut off asylum,
we are cutting off people who that's really need our help.
Speaker 4 (01:36):
In my opinion, the border is a problem, but any
of the funding that could have been used for any
of these things that is being used to support other countries' issues.
So it's almost that catch twenty two.
Speaker 8 (01:49):
I am an illegal immigrant from Kenya, and personally I
believe that we need to be given the chance to
be able to take advantage of being able to live
the American pigment.
Speaker 1 (02:00):
So many amazing calls. Thanks to everyone who called. So
this hour we're asking what should the US policy be
toward China, the second largest economy in the world, one
of our largest trading partners, and of course arrival superpower.
Speaker 9 (02:12):
Absolutely and our number is eight four four four Middle
that's eight four four four six four three three five three.
You can also email us by going to Listen to
the Middle dot com.
Speaker 1 (02:20):
Okay, let's meet our panel. Gary Locke served in the
Obama administration as US Ambassador to China. He was also
Secretary of Commerce. Prior to that was governor of Washington State. Governor.
Welcome to the Middle.
Speaker 10 (02:32):
My pleasure to be with you, Thank you very much.
Speaker 1 (02:34):
And joining us from Taipei. Will Ripley, senior international correspondent
for CNN. Will is great to have you on the
Middle as the first guests joining live from Asia.
Speaker 11 (02:44):
Hey, that's very cool. I'm glad to be glad to
be on the panel. Thanks for having me.
Speaker 1 (02:48):
Well, before we get to the phones, Will Ripley just
explain briefly what is the significance for China and for
the US of this election in Taiwan last weekend.
Speaker 12 (02:58):
Well, this election was essential a decision for Taiwanese voters
if they wanted to continue this policy for the past
eight years under sign when of prioritizing the partnership with
the United States, which includes the billions of dollars in
arms sales, more military cooperation than ever before. But just
in general, much more communication and prioritizing that US relationship
(03:19):
and the relationship with other like minded Western democracies, or
recalibrate the US relationship and try to mend fences with China,
which was the alternative that was being offered by the
KMT and to a lesser extent or a less specific extent,
this third party, the TPP. In the end, the voters
decided that they wanted to continue this strategy of the
(03:40):
Democratic Progressive Party, the current ruling party, although they didn't
give the party a full mandate because they lost control
of parliament largely over their weakness weakness on local issues
such as expensive housing, lack of opportunity, low wages. People
here in Taiwan don't make a lot of money, so
they certainly let their feelings be known on the domestic
front that they wanted some other voices in parliament. But
(04:01):
on the international stage they seem to have put their
confidence behind this ruling party strategy of US over China,
which is exactly the opposite result that Beijing would have wanted.
Speaker 1 (04:12):
And Gary Locke, President Biden was asked a question about
this and answered about the Taiwan elections, saying, we do
not support independence. What is at stake for the United
States here? Why does President Obiden, President Biden have to
say something like that.
Speaker 13 (04:27):
Well, that's because the winning party, the TPP, as will indicated,
has advocated for stronger relations with the United States, but
the TPP has really stood for.
Speaker 10 (04:42):
Independence from China.
Speaker 13 (04:45):
China views Taiwan as really a province very much calls
for the reunification of Taiwan into China. And the TPP
the winning party. It's the third consecutive presidential election that
it has won, first time more than two elections consecutive
(05:06):
elections won by any party, and so this was really
viewed in many ways around the world as the future
of Taiwan. Is it going to like the KMT the
opposition party, do they want to reunify with China or
stay the course in terms of independence. And so that's
why I think it was also important for the President
(05:27):
to reiterate the US position formulated since President Carter and
really begun by President Nixon, of one China the mainland
and that Taiwan is part of the mainland to be
unified peacefully by the people and decided by the people
(05:47):
of both the mainland and Taiwan. Without force. What's interesting
is that the KMT, which has called for stronger ties
with the mainland with China and really supports reunification, at
the same time, made a visit to the United States
and wanted the Biden administration to reaffirm that the United
(06:10):
States would defend Taiwan and come to Taiwan's support in
case of any military intervention.
Speaker 1 (06:18):
Do you think that the United States would do that,
by the way.
Speaker 10 (06:21):
Well, I mean that is part of our treaty.
Speaker 13 (06:23):
That's been a long standing commitment that democratic and Republican
presidents have made ever since the United States re established
relations with Beijing.
Speaker 1 (06:32):
Is that just about our principles were standing with a
democratic ally, or is that about our economic interests and
all the chips that are made in Taiwan and what
it would mean if China were to take over with force.
Speaker 13 (06:47):
Well, that commitment to Taiwan was made even before Taiwan
became such a huge economic power and the world's leading
chip manufacturing facility. But really it was a way, I think,
to chart a middle course support for recognition of Beijing
(07:09):
as the government of the Chinese people and breaking ties
formal diplomatic relations and recognition of Taiwan as a separate country,
but at the same time saying we support Taiwan in
its ability to chart its own course on its terms
in a peaceful fashion with Beijing, and that we would
(07:32):
defend Taiwan if Beijing and the mainland were to exercise
military force against Taiwan.
Speaker 1 (07:40):
I want to go to the phones because we're getting
some calls coming in right now. Tom is joining us
from Honolulu in Hawaii. Tom, go ahead, welcome to the middle.
Speaker 14 (07:49):
Thanks very much. And two of those who are listening,
and I want to say then at Homer, which is
the names HIAI go ahead, yeah, okay, Well, anyway, what
I just wanted to say was that I think that
(08:10):
we should treat Taiwan and uh mainland China exactly the
same way that we would treat and have treated Hong Kong,
because that's a part of China also, and so there
shouldn't be any difference in the way we treat them.
They're all Chinese people, and uh you know, they're part
(08:36):
of mainland China. Therefore we should not share any favoritism
or any difference, uh you know, just like as an
example would be, we would want people to treat California
exactly the same way they would treat Santa Catarina Island,
(08:56):
which is off the coast of California.
Speaker 1 (08:59):
Tom, let me take just ahead.
Speaker 12 (09:01):
Yeah, I would say, so this is I'm glad, You're
really glad you brought that up, Tom, and aloha to
you in Hawaii. We're on islands separated by several hours
of flying. But I'd love to get to yours when
I get when I get a vacation, whatever that's going
to be. Look here in Taiwan, they do not, at
least some many people. The majority of people don't identify
(09:21):
themselves as being part of mainland China, even though there
was a time when the ruling government of Taiwan believed
that it was the legitimate government for all of China.
Then the world switched the recognition, you know, to Beijing.
There was the Chinese Civil War in nineteen forty nine.
The losing side, led by Tchangkai Schek, came here and
set up camp in Taiwan. They said they were the
(09:43):
real China. The Communist Party in Beijing said they were
the real China. And for a long time the world
acknowledged Taiwan. And then when China opened up in the
US formalized diplomatic ties with Beijing. Basically, one by one,
all of the diplomatic allies that had recognized Taiwan as
the only China they then moved over to Beijing. To
the point now just in the last few days now
(10:04):
to a Pacific nation, island nation of twelve thousand people
just switched formal ties over to Beijing, leaving Taiwan with
only twelve formal diplomatic allies. But you know, Taiwan has
had its own government, its own in recent years, since
nineteen ninety six, a democratically elected government, so the people
have chosen their leaders here. It's a very young democracy,
(10:25):
and they were by large at a dictatorship for many
years under Shanghai Shak.
Speaker 11 (10:30):
Essentially he was the one man show.
Speaker 12 (10:32):
But then they transition to democracy and now they elect
every four years a president. Saigwen can't run for reelection
because of term limits. Xijinping, as you know over in China,
has paid the way for himself for life. He just
had an unprecedented third term. But you know, people in
Taiwan don't believe that they're part of mainland China. They
have their own government, they have their own military. They
and even though they haven't formally declared that they are
(10:54):
a separate nation from China because that would essentially spark
a huge war instantly with Beijing, you know, calling that unacceptable.
A lot of Taiwanese are not identifying as being part
of mainland China. This is the this is the quandary,
This is the problem that Taiwan finds itself in right now.
Speaker 1 (11:11):
A reminder, you can reach us at eight four four
middle that's eight four four four six four three three
five three, you know, Tolliver. I'd wager that most listeners
who have at least taken a social studies class in
their life are familiar with President Nixon's famous diplomatic visit
to China.
Speaker 9 (11:27):
Yeah, that's right. Back in nineteen seventy two, Nixon was
the first US head of states to visit the People's
Republic of China, and did so as part of an
effort to normalize relations with the emerging superpower. Listen to this.
Speaker 15 (11:37):
There can be no stable and enduring piece without the
participation of the People's Republic of China, and it's seven
hundred and fifty million people. That is why I have
undertaken initiatives in several areas to open the door for
more normal relations between our two countries.
Speaker 1 (11:59):
Sevendred fifty million people, then one point four billion people
in China now just amazing. A reminder, please go to
our website and you can contribute to the Middle in
any amount. We are trying to raise some money from you.
If you love the show, please do that. Also make
sure that you rate our podcast high rating nice, rating
(12:21):
five stars wherever you listen to your podcast. We're going
to be right back after this. This is the Middle.
I'm Jeremy Hobson. If you're just tuning, in the Middle
is a national call in show. We're focused on elevating
voices from the Middle geographically, politically, and philosophically, or maybe
you just want to meet in the Middle. This hour,
we're talking about America's relationship with China, from trade to technology, cybersecurity,
(12:42):
military activity in the South China Sea, human rights. We
want to hear what you think should the US treat
China like a partner, an adversary, something in between. Tulliver,
what's the number to call in?
Speaker 9 (12:53):
It's eight four four four Middle. That's eight four four
four six four three three five three. You can also
write to us at Listen to the Middle dot com
or on social media.
Speaker 1 (13:01):
I'm joined by Gary Locke, former US Ambassador to China,
and Will Ripley, senior international correspondent for CNN in Taipei.
Before we get back to the phones, Governor Locke, when
you listen to the candidates on the campaign trail right
now in this country, whether they're Republican or Democrat, it's
all about how tough they are on China. Why is that?
Speaker 13 (13:23):
Well, you know, it seems like every major presidential election
cycle and even the congressional cycle, we want to find
someone that we can blame for a lot of our problems,
and we always want to be tough against our major competitors,
whether the competitors or the Soviet Union, adversaries and competitors
(13:44):
Soviet Union, the economic might of Germany and some of
the European countries to the Asia Pacific region. Let me
just say that we certainly have When you asked, is
China a partner, competitor.
Speaker 10 (13:56):
Adversary, it's really all of those.
Speaker 13 (13:58):
We have major differences and concerns with China, their record
on human rights, the rule of law, protection of intellectual property,
and the list goes on. They are obviously a huge
economic competitor. They are intent on being world classed and
(14:22):
dominant in so many areas, whether it's electric automobiles, to
advanced manufacturing, to chip manufacturing, it.
Speaker 10 (14:33):
Et cetera, et cetera.
Speaker 13 (14:35):
And they're doing everything they can, and the government is
encouraging and in fact, the government is participating in some
of these efforts to gain the knowledge that many of
Americans and other countries and inventors and business people have
given their blood, sweat and tears to develop. They and
the Chinese would like to grab that technology that know
(14:55):
how the secret sauce any way they can. At the
same time, so many millions of jobs in America depend
on trade with China. So many products that we take,
take it, that we assume and take for granted in
our daily lives are made in China, high quality, low cost,
which then means more money in the pockets of Americans
(15:17):
that they can spend on vacation, college tuition, healthcare, retirement.
But for instance, China is America's number one export destination
for our agricultural goods. They buy so much of our soybeans,
our corn and wheat and things like that. Almost seventy
(15:39):
sixty five percent of all Boeing airplanes are sold to
overseas carriers, and up until recently, a lot of that
was going to China. So millions of jobs in America
depend on making things in America that we then sell
to China.
Speaker 1 (15:56):
And of course we learned, of course we learned in
the pandemic how much we are also rely on buying
things from China and bring them to this country. I
want to get to the phones.
Speaker 13 (16:04):
Therefore means that we need to kind of diversifly our
supply chain and not be so reliant on China. And
of course we have a lot of concerns about their
technological ambitions and whether or not some of the things
that we do sell to China could be used by
the military in China or in terms of violations of
human rights, and so we're trying to clamp down on
(16:27):
what American companies can sell to China.
Speaker 12 (16:31):
China is also Taiwan's number one trading partner as well,
so the same things that Gary land out in the
US also are are a.
Speaker 11 (16:36):
Factor here as well.
Speaker 12 (16:38):
Talk about cross straight conflict, and yet they rely on
each other economically. China, particularly relies on Taiwan for semi conductors,
those chips that power all of our tech.
Speaker 1 (16:46):
Okay, let's go to Howard in Minneapolis, Minnesota. Howard, welcome
to the middle What do you think here about the
US relationship with China.
Speaker 8 (16:56):
My concern with China is that too long we've let
the economic interests guide our foreign policy. We need to
recognize Taiwan's right to freedom in democracy. Taiwan is connected
to Ukraine, Russia, and China, North Korea, Iran, Syria, a
(17:17):
part of a coalition leading US in the World War Three.
There's only twelve countries that recognize Taiwan. We need to
stand with Taiwan if we're going to be the shining city.
Speaker 2 (17:27):
On the hill.
Speaker 1 (17:28):
Howard, thank you so much for that call. Will Ripley,
you know, he brings up something very interesting when he
talks about Ukraine there. I mean, of course, the issue
of standing with a democratic ally, but also you know,
China and Russia have gotten very close, and you could
see what President She and China has been doing is
really coosing up to US adversaries all over the.
Speaker 12 (17:51):
Place, China, Russia, you know, in North Korea as well.
I mean, I think that caller was spot on in
terms of the concern that these you know, these authoritarian uh,
you know autocrats are aligning uh strategically at least for
the time being, and just waiting for the moment that
the West kind of the democracies crumble. You know, that
not the democracies crumble, but the current cohesion crumbles with
(18:15):
the change in administration.
Speaker 11 (18:16):
Uh.
Speaker 12 (18:17):
You know, this is the disadvantage some might argue that
democracies have is that, you know, the advantage of having
fresh ideas and fresh thought and innovation also means that
there's not necessarily long term consistency like what you can have.
Speaker 11 (18:28):
In a dictatorship.
Speaker 6 (18:29):
Uh.
Speaker 12 (18:29):
And many have said that China Undersesion Ping has essentially
become you know, he's the strongest Chinese leader since now
he's been called the dictator. It's a very sensitive word
from the foreign ministry in Beijing's perspective, but President Biden
used it the German Uh, the German Foreign minister used
it to describe Chjan Ping. We know, Kim Jong Lunin's
a dictator, and the same about Vladimir Putin and all
three of them working together, uh and trying to bolster
(18:51):
each other's efforts on various fronts is obviously alarming. Obviously
there are a lot of differences between Ukraine and Taiwan.
Uh and yet the Taiwanese certainly have wanted very closely
Ukraine and have already made.
Speaker 1 (19:03):
And the Chinese too probably right.
Speaker 12 (19:05):
Sure, absolutely to see how the West responded, what mistakes
Russia made, and at the same time always staying at
least publicly in lockstaff with Putin, and she proclaiming this
this friendship, which means that you know, China's stacking up
all of the allies that would have its back, be
in its corner if it enrages the West by making
a move on a place like Taiwan.
Speaker 1 (19:27):
Down the road, let's go to Andrew, who's in Saint Louis, Missouri. Andrew,
welcome to the middle Go.
Speaker 2 (19:33):
Ahead, Hi.
Speaker 16 (19:36):
My question is about China's bank rolling of African countries
and how America responds to that diplomatically.
Speaker 1 (19:44):
China has has spent a lot of money in African
countries in recent years, Gary Locke, what about that the
US has tried to play a role in African countries
as well, and say, well, we're not being so transactional
as China.
Speaker 17 (19:58):
Is.
Speaker 1 (19:58):
But what do you think about about that question?
Speaker 13 (20:01):
Well, China is really stepping into a void left by
the United States many many decades ago. The United States
was a huge financial supporter of developing countries, helping them
learn best agricultural practices, building hospitals and schools, bringing in
clean water systems, and that was really much of America's
(20:24):
foreign policy soft power, developing friends and helping other countries develop.
Even the members of the US military or defense establishment
say that a key to strong military alliances is a
good foreign policy that includes foreign assistance to these other
(20:45):
countries developing friends. In that vacuum left by the United States,
China has stepped in.
Speaker 10 (20:51):
They're helping build ports, they're building.
Speaker 13 (20:54):
Roads, they're building road initiatives well, and the Belt Road
initiative is really an mansion of a trade route and
really helping sell made in China goods, which creates employment
for the Chinese people, but selling things to the countries
that would benefit from that, and also buying things from
those countries, creating those strong economic ties and partnerships. But
(21:17):
the problem is that some of these investments by China
have been on terms that are very unfavorable, unfair to
the governments of these receiving countries in case they can't
pay back their loans, can't pay back some of the
terms the investment that the Chinese have made, and then
(21:37):
huge almost like foreclosure of the house, where the Chinese
then take over the city, take over the port, become
the owners of these things. And many of these other
countries now are saying, whoa, we better review the terms
of these things, or we better back out of some
of these deals, or we're not going to get involved.
And China has also recognized that maybe they've overstepped, so
(21:59):
they're trying to, you know, be a little bit more
reasonable in some of these investments. But the main point
is America is not doing what it should and other
Western countries are not doing what they should be to
help these four or more developing countries improve the livelihood
the standard of living for their people, and in the
(22:20):
absence of that, China stepping in and building political friends.
Speaker 1 (22:25):
Let's go to Connie who is in Colorado. Connie, welcome
to the middle Go ahead.
Speaker 6 (22:31):
Okay, I was born grew up in mainland in Since
ninety forty nine, Chinese communists shows so many Chinese people.
If you say something against the Communists. They just put
you in hard labor camp or put you in jail.
(23:00):
Communist Party is illegal government.
Speaker 1 (23:04):
So what do you what do you think the United
States should do?
Speaker 2 (23:07):
Then?
Speaker 6 (23:09):
Should not engage with China. United States government to make
so many mistakes since ninety forty five, ninety forty nine,
they just try to believe Communist Party. They just ignore
(23:30):
warming down. Take defeat to Taiwan.
Speaker 1 (23:36):
Connie, thank you so much. I really appreciate you calling
in with that, and I'll take it to Will Ripley.
She brings up an important point. And also we should
mention that many in the United States have pointed to
human rights abuses that have been going on in Shinjong
Province against the Wigers.
Speaker 12 (23:54):
And you know what, the same thing happened in Taiwan
as well. In the years after the Chinese Civil War
under change, there was a period that lasted a martial
law that lasted for decades that's now known as the
White Terror. Taiwan actually had a prison camp for political
prisoners on Green Island in southern Taiwan. It's this little
speck that you have to take a boat for a
very bumpy boat ride for about an hour and a
(24:15):
half to get to I got.
Speaker 11 (24:16):
I got very noxious when I went to visit.
Speaker 12 (24:18):
But you know, it's quite an important sight because it
is a reminder for Taiwan that even in their own
history and not not to distant history, they lived under
martial law, they lived under a dictatorship. A lot of
the politicians who are in power today in Taiwan, particularly
in the Democratic Progressive Party, either they or you know,
the generation right before them, including Taiwan's first female vice president.
Speaker 11 (24:41):
She was shot, she served time in jail.
Speaker 12 (24:43):
I mean, you know, these were people who were meeting,
you know, in secret in basements, illegally, they were being
rounded up and in prison for their political views, and
then they fought. They turned Taiwan into one of the
world's most young and vibrant and really interestingocracies, unlike in
Hong Kong. I know there was a comparison earlier made
between Hong Kong and Taiwan. Here in Taiwan, you know,
(25:06):
watching what happened in Hong Kong was probably the reason,
the main reason that sign when won a landslide reelection
in twenty twenty, because people here in Taiwan said they
didn't want to become the next Hong Kong in Taiwan,
and I lived in Hong Kong.
Speaker 11 (25:17):
I covered the protests.
Speaker 12 (25:18):
A lot of those protest leaders and politicians and activists
and even some journalists they've either been rounded up and
put in jail where they still remain to this day,
or they're living in exile abroad. Whereas here in Taiwan,
the leaders of the Sunflower Movement which stormed parliament in
twenty fourteen to protest a trade deal that was depending
with China under the Kuminthong, the KMT, which was the
(25:40):
ruling party at that time.
Speaker 11 (25:42):
Those students that.
Speaker 12 (25:43):
Protested, some of them now have positions of power inside
the government. So those are two contrasts there to take
a look at. Taiwan is a democracy today, a young democracy,
and people that have grown up, people here in their
twenties or early thirties, you know, that's what they remember.
That's what they've grown up living through. People older than
that remember the times of martial law. They remember what
it was like when Taiwan was not a democracy under
(26:04):
Changhai Shak.
Speaker 1 (26:05):
We're getting some comments in online as well.
Speaker 9 (26:07):
Tolliver, Yeah, Tony and Champagne Illinois, your homes right, the
transformation of China in my lifetime puts our country to shame,
and there's no doubt in my mind that its military
investment is mostly in response to our belligerent attitude. I'm
just thoroughly disappointed in the conduct of our foreign policy
in almost every aspect, but especially in our policy towards China.
They deserve a lot more credit than we're apparently willing
(26:28):
to admit. And I'm sicking that no one in Washington
will listen what.
Speaker 1 (26:31):
About that, Gary Locke, because we did get some comments
in online as well saying that the US should treat
China more as a friend than as an adversary.
Speaker 10 (26:44):
Well, we need to.
Speaker 13 (26:45):
We have to be vigilant in terms of our national security.
We have great concerns about China's intentions with the big
build up of their military in the South China Sea
and how they're taking over and claiming territory worries that
other countries, whether it's Vietnam and the Philippines acclaimed as
(27:05):
their own, and in fact, the World Court has ruled
against China with respect to some of their fortifications and
creation of islands out of the middle of nowhere in
the South China Sea. At the same time I said
before that, yeah, they're an adversary, they're a competitor, but
they're also a partner. There are so many things confronting
(27:27):
the entire world that cannot be solved by the United
States alone or China alone, where the solutions require joint cooperation,
close collaboration between both the United States and China. Take
climate change as an example. If the United States were
to make significant reductions in greenhouse gases in China does
(27:48):
not our efforts, our sacrifices will be for naught.
Speaker 10 (27:51):
And vice versa.
Speaker 13 (27:53):
If China makes huge reductions in greenhouse gases and we
failed to make come inserment reductions, the efforts by China
will be for notught. Because Americans produce more greenhouse gases
per person than any other country in the world. China,
with its one point four billion population, produces more in total,
(28:15):
but they have what four times the population of America.
So the world is depending on concerted collaboration between the
United States and China on climate change, but also with
respect to trying to solve the nuclear proliferation of North
Korea or Iran, finding tres for some of the most
dreaded diseases in the world. The list goes on and on.
Speaker 1 (28:39):
Well, let me just try to sneak in one call
before we have to take a quick break. Christopher in Gainesville, Florida, Christopher,
go ahead, what do you think?
Speaker 18 (28:49):
Yeah, great to be here, and definitely agree with a
lot of Weston said, especially just with US and China
really being dependent upon each other. I guess my main
thing is so for over the past century, we've been
a leader in just promoting democracy as a whole, and
it just seems like with this election in Taiwan, the
people they've given lean on these relations with the US,
(29:14):
and it seems like alienating them now got a good idea,
It doesn't send a good message to the rest of
the world.
Speaker 1 (29:20):
Christopher, thank you so much for that call. We've also
heard from a Bill in Carbondale, Illinois, who said, I
lived and worked in China from twenty ten till twenty
eighteen at a major university. When I returned from China,
I moved to my home state of Illinois. If we're
to avoid a war with China, we should emphasize cooperation
and friendly competition. So many interesting points coming in, and
(29:43):
there's a lot more to get to as we continue.
But you know, Tolliver, a recent poll from Pew Research
Center found that more than a third of Americans viewed
China as an enemy, and a big part of that
is concerns about espionage.
Speaker 5 (29:56):
Oh.
Speaker 9 (29:56):
Absolutely, Like Almost a year ago, a Chinese by balloon
was spotted across the United States. It's before it is
eventually shot down or the coasts out. Remember that day,
very well off the coast of South Carolina. Here's a
clip from a home video of the incident, taken by
a Billings, Montana resident.
Speaker 7 (30:09):
Well, hello, everybody, I am sitting in my driveway here
in Billings, Montana, and right now there is a ground
stop on our airport.
Speaker 1 (30:23):
And this thing is up in the sky. Just amazing.
I love that clip, Doliver. You know, China has actually
sent a balloon over Taiwan since the election last weekend.
That's how they scare people. We are going to be
right back with more of the middle right after this.
This is the Middle. I'm Jeremy Hobson. We're talking about
the US relationship with China. You can call us at
(30:45):
eight four four Middle. Our guests are former US Ambassador
to China, Gary Locke and Will Ripley, Senior CNN International
correspondent based in taype Hey, Taiwan. Before we go back
to the phones, Will Ripley, fentanyl has not come up.
It's a big concern here in the United States. A
lot of the chemicals used to make it originate in China.
(31:05):
They're sent here, they're sent to Mexico. China is an
authoritarian state. If they wanted to stop the flow of something,
they probably could. Why haven't they done so with fentanyl?
Speaker 12 (31:15):
Well, I believe that was one of the issues that
President Biden and President She discussed and were able to
come to some sort of agreement on when they had
those summit talks in San Francisco. The issue of Taiwan
highly contentious and definitely no progress really made on that
on that topic when they were talking. But on the
fentol issue, it seems as if she indicated to President
(31:36):
Biden that China is willing to try to crack down
more on that, and that's basically an easy thing for
him to do, because, as you said, they do have.
Speaker 11 (31:44):
A lot of control.
Speaker 12 (31:45):
But you know, there's also a lot of corruption that
occurs in all levels of China, military and economic and government.
Ches and Ping has tried to root out some of it,
particularly if the corrupt people happen to be political opponents
of his.
Speaker 1 (31:58):
But I'm saying because of the corruption, You're saying, they
may not have the power that we may think they do,
because exactly.
Speaker 12 (32:05):
You know, China, China has kept the North Korean economy going,
for example, even during international sanctions by you know, essentially
looking the other way or just opening up trade routes
altogether with North Korea because they certainly don't want to
see a week in North Korea become a you know,
a US allied North and South right on its doorstep.
You know, North Korea is a buffer for China. The
(32:27):
fentanyl thing, you know, that's that's not an issue that
I've dived too deeply in for my reporting, but I
do know that, you know, obviously China could do more
if they wanted to. And apparently President She told President
Biden that there would be progress made on that. I
have not, though done any original reporting to follow up
on whether the numbers have come down in terms of
fentanyl being smuggled into the United States.
Speaker 1 (32:49):
Well, and it's such a terrible problem in the United States.
Let's go to the phone. Celia is with us from Madison, Wisconsin. Hi, Celia,
welcome to the middle Go ahead, and thank you.
Speaker 17 (32:59):
Very much us for having this program. I'm trying to
make my background very quick, but I have two major questions.
I have a pretty deep background in Chinese issues. I
traveled there with Columbia University group in nineteen eighty two.
I studied under profession share at the UW Experts on
China in the sixties, and then in nineteen ninety seven
(33:22):
I was the main administrative person on the only as
far as I know, is still to stay. The only
conference hell between the scholars from the TRC and Taiwan,
and they I think were surprised to each other is
at how well they got along. I think it's going
to be always going to be a complicated relationship. On
(33:42):
one hand, China comes out of a humanistic culture of
Buddhism and Confucianism, still has hold memories of World War
Two and some of the killings that took place between
the two armories there, and they have this sense of
national morality. But on the other hand, I think mister
(34:07):
she In now knuckling down the Taiwan issue. Maybe over
his head.
Speaker 2 (34:12):
He has problems at home, he's.
Speaker 1 (34:14):
Got so sorry starting to interrupt, but what do you
think that what do you think the United States relationship
with China should be?
Speaker 17 (34:22):
Briefly, I think we just have to take one issue
one by one and deal with kind of and separately
and as a priority, and then see how it all
shakes out again. But has anyone brought up to mister
(34:43):
Shei that he's got North Koreans on his border, refugees,
leiguers in the West, people in Hong Kong that are
not happy, and the last I was told about two thousand,
two hundred and fifty thousand Taiwanese living and doing business
in Taiwan.
Speaker 1 (34:58):
Celia, thank you so much for for that.
Speaker 12 (35:00):
Crest, just say quick quickly. She raises a good point.
She Jiping does have a lot of problems at home.
He's got his unemployment rate.
Speaker 11 (35:06):
It just went up.
Speaker 12 (35:07):
Youth unemployment has scott had been skyrocketing. That is a
huge issue. They've got a shortage of women of child
bearing age, partially, if not largely, because of the one
child policy where people had to choose between whether they're
gonna have a son and a daughter. Now you have
any unequal balance more men than women in China, which
is going to bode pretty bad for their already buckling
(35:28):
healthcare system, which is struggling with the rapidly aging population.
So yeah, there are a lot of domestic problems that
she's has on his play right now.
Speaker 1 (35:35):
Well, an ambassador, let me ask you. You know, she
brings up just the complexity of the relationship, something that
you know, you even getting ready for this show. This
could be a three hour or five hour show. There
are so many aspects of this relationship to get into,
and not most Americans are not going to spend that
much time focused on that. So it's got to be
a very difficult relationship to man as a person who's
(35:56):
the ambassador or in the administration or whatever.
Speaker 10 (36:00):
No, it's a very complex relationship.
Speaker 13 (36:02):
And as the caller indicated, China also has a great
pride in its history. Centuries ago, it was the most
advanced civilization in the world thousands of years ago. I mean,
it was the inventor of the compass, the printing press,
the clock, a seismograph, and the list goes on and on.
So China has a very proud tradition in history, and
(36:22):
it has in some ways a chip on its shoulder,
having been humiliated by the Western Powers during the Opium War,
in which the Western countries Germany, Great Britain, France, the
United States actually carved out territories and parts of major
cities of China and ruled those parts of the cities
(36:43):
where there's Shanghai and other places. And then of course
they were invaded by the Japanese during World War Two.
And you know, the United States actually formed a great
alliance with China even before the outbreak, before Pearl Harbor,
in which we had people like the Flying Tigers providing
military assistance, flying over the Himalayans and providing supplies to
(37:06):
the Chinese army fighting against the Japanese. And of course
some of the policies of Maltseetung, the Great Leap Forward,
and all these things that created such death and poverty
in China. And so China is really just trying to
reassert itself and they are racing to restore their prominence
(37:29):
in the world. At the same time, they're doing it
in ways that violate our standards of fair play of
a level playing field. But at the same time, we
need China, we need to work with China to solve
things like climate change, halting the proliferation of nuclear weapons.
China is a key player in trying to solve the
(37:50):
North Korea problem.
Speaker 10 (37:51):
The United States can't do it alone. China has to
be involved. And China of.
Speaker 13 (37:55):
Course does not want a North Korea that is destabilized,
that somehow where the regime falls and the South takes over,
because as will indicate it, China does not want a
democratic country right on its border, and so they see
North Korea as a buffer.
Speaker 10 (38:14):
But they also know that North Korea is a problem.
Speaker 13 (38:17):
Child, so to speak, and they very much want that
issue solved so that the United States or South Korea
or other countries don't take unilateral military action against North Korea.
Speaker 1 (38:30):
Let's go back to the phones and Carl is in Minneapolis. Carl,
welcome to the middle. What do you think.
Speaker 5 (38:37):
I'd like to agree with Thomas from Minneapolis who called
earlier and about the whole China funding Russia and the
war against Ukraine. And that's a whole other topic. But
I think that America needs to wake up and see
that a lot of these companies like Amazon need to
(39:01):
show American Americans that that a lot of these products
are made in China and that we need to be
aware of where all of our products are coming from.
Speaker 1 (39:17):
Okay, Carl, thank you for that call, and let me
get to Cooper in Gifford, Connecticut. Cooper, go ahead. What
do you think the US relationship with China should be?
Speaker 14 (39:29):
Hello?
Speaker 19 (39:32):
I was currently wondering how the United States would be
able to maintain relations with China and back Taiwan without
confronting them further or severing current relations. In the last
couple of years, since the US has begun to back
Taiwan more, we start to see diplomacy with the country
(39:52):
come to a halt and even some sanctions. How do
you think going forward we'd be able to address this
tense relationship between the two countries well, not escalating the conflict.
Speaker 1 (40:06):
Okay, I think we have to take that to the
ambassador because this is something you probably had to think
about when you were ambassador. What do you think how
do we how do you keep a good relationship with
Taiwan while not making things worse with China?
Speaker 10 (40:18):
Well, for many, many years, the United States has been
selling advanced weapons to Taiwan to help boaster their defenses.
Speaker 13 (40:25):
That is, of course, has raised the ire of Beijing,
but they accept it, they.
Speaker 10 (40:32):
Will protest it.
Speaker 13 (40:33):
China in in response, has made a lot of military incursions,
a lot of military activity, flights very close over the
airspace of Taiwan, and as well indicated during the most
recent Taiwan presidential elections, they had like ten balloons, spy
balloons flying over you know, you know Taiwan does I mean,
(40:54):
China doesn't need.
Speaker 10 (40:55):
To use these spy balloons.
Speaker 13 (40:56):
They have satellites that are high up in the air
that can gained just about as much information. But sometimes
these balloons, at least with respect to Taiwan, is more
psychological intimidation.
Speaker 10 (41:08):
But let me just say that.
Speaker 13 (41:11):
Hijing, being because of his domestic problems at home, has
to come out as a strong person renouncing and coming
out boldly against any notions of independence by Taiwan, formal
declarations of independence.
Speaker 10 (41:27):
We, of course the United States have said that.
Speaker 13 (41:29):
We support a one China, but we want the integration
of Taiwan into China to be on the terms established
by the people of Taiwan as well as the leaders
of China, without military force. What's interesting about the recent
Taiwan presidential elections is that the winning party, which is
(41:49):
advocated for independence got only forty percent of the vote.
The two opposition parties combined had sixty percent.
Speaker 10 (41:58):
And while they want.
Speaker 13 (42:01):
They want the status quo, but they're saying we don't
want to provoke the mainland, And even the TPP, the
winning party, has been saying, well, we don't need to
really declare independence.
Speaker 10 (42:16):
We too like the status quo.
Speaker 13 (42:18):
And so in some ways the election was about who's
going to be more belligerent and who's going to be
more confrontational while trying to maintain this fragile relationship. And
as we'll indicate it, both I mean Taiwan and China
are major trading partners, so many people of Taiwan are
the investors and owners of major enterprises and businesses in China,
(42:42):
providing jobs for millions of Chinese people. So they need
each other. Well, much of the election was really focused on, well,
some of the other domestic issues.
Speaker 1 (42:53):
Let's sneak in another call here, Robert in Bloomington, Illinois, Robert,
go ahead, welcome to the middle.
Speaker 2 (43:01):
Great show, great show. The situation, the situation with Taiwan
is unsustainable. Either we have to endorse their independence or
we have to uh facilitate reunification. This ambiguity is going
to end up in disaster. It's unsustainable. You know, we
(43:21):
created a culturvo at Bosnia out of carved it out
of Yugoslavia, and everybody supposed to accept that. So this
situation is just, you know, very hard to deal with.
Speaker 1 (43:36):
So what would you do? Would you would you support
reunification or not?
Speaker 2 (43:41):
No, I would not. I would go for independence and
be it and and and uh support true democracies and
not be hypocritical. You know, if you want to do
everything that's in the US national interests, then you have
to be a hypocrit.
Speaker 1 (43:57):
Well will Ripley your thoughts on that?
Speaker 12 (44:00):
Well, a lot of Taiwanese would agree. I mean, even
the two opposition parties that by the way, they almost
had a joint ticket, but then in this dramatic live
television meltdown, the TPP and the KMT, the two opposition
they were not able to cooperate and so they had
to run separately. But yeah, they had you know, you know,
who knows how things would have ship, you know, turned
out had it been a two way race with the
(44:22):
you know, one of those two opposition parties and the
winning ruling party the Democratic Progressive Party or DPP, you know,
had had had that racement differently, we might be having
a whole different conversation right now. But a lot of Taiwanese,
particularly younger Taiwanese, identified not as Chinese. They identify as Taiwanese.
And so even though you know, technically the Taiwan Constitution
(44:42):
still calls themselves the Republic of China, you know that
at one point they viewed themselves as the legitimate government
over all of the Chinese mainland. That's not the widely
held view here in Taiwan anymore. It's been you know,
seventy eight plus years and they've been running their own
show with their own military, and they've done pretty darn
well for themselves considering what was built up posts nineteen
(45:04):
forty nine and what they've become now. You know, even
though they only have a dozen formal diplomatic allies, they
have a lot of very close democratic friends around the world,
friends that they hope will be behind them, be in
their corner if and when the time comes, if China
tries to make a unilateral.
Speaker 11 (45:20):
Move to force this absorption.
Speaker 12 (45:22):
As they view it, they don't view it as reunification,
which is what China says it is because they point
out that the communist rulers in Beijing have never once
controlled this island. It was the losing side that came
over and set up shop. The Communists never controlled Taiwan,
even though they always use that word reunification here in Taiwan.
They say it would be a forceful absorption essentially.
Speaker 1 (45:42):
Tulliver, you know, I like to push limits. I'm going
to try to squeeze one more call in right now,
and that is Mitchell and tallahassee go ahead.
Speaker 16 (45:50):
What do you think, Yes, I think we should be
very vigilant our relationship should be vigilants regarding China. I
think we should consider or their police stations that they
have around the globe internationally in regards to keeping track
of Chinese individuals who are speaking against the Chinese the CPP.
(46:11):
I think we should be vigilant about the towards them.
Regarding fentanol coming across the southern border, I think we
should be vigilant whenever we do business with them, and
they should consider who they are doing business with, people
who are free thinking, people who know what freedom is
and what liberty is. And I think they see that
(46:34):
every election across the waters at Taiwan, and I think
we should protect democracy across the globe as well.
Speaker 1 (46:42):
Mitchell, thank you for that call. And I want to
just tell our listeners, by the way, because there were
many more calls on the line, that if you still
have things to say about China or questions, you can
call and leave a message at eight four four for
Middle because we are going to be doing a special
podcast extra on this with Bill Kirby, Professor of China
Studies at Harvard University, responding to your questions in comments,
(47:05):
so you can go to listen to the Middle dot
Com with more questions. We do have time just because.
Speaker 13 (47:10):
Ahead, I'd like to point out that given all the
tensions between the United States and China, and under both
the Trump administration and the Biden administration, there have been
more restrictions on trade exports of American made technology, especially
to China, which might end up being used for military purposes.
(47:30):
But in all of this, and with the campaigns of
Democrats and Republicans and the presidential elections coming up, there's
so much vilification of China. And yes, we have major
differences with the policies of Beijing, differences on human rights,
on technology, rule of law, theft of intellectual property. But
(47:52):
what concerns me is that a lot of this concern, animosity,
vilification of China is spilling over onto Chinese Americans, and
that so many Chinese Americans, even people never born in China,
been here for many generations, don't even speak Chinese, are
(48:13):
somehow viewed as spies, agents of the communist government.
Speaker 10 (48:18):
But that we are all loyal to Beijing, and it
was great to hear.
Speaker 1 (48:24):
It was great to hear, by the way, from a
Chinese American who called in. Unfortunately we've run out of time,
but I want to thank my guest, former US Ambassador
to China, Gary Locke, thank you so much for being here.
And Bill Ripley, a senior international correspondent for CNN based
in Taipei, will thank you. Have a lovely Friday. It's
already Friday there for you.
Speaker 10 (48:43):
Thanks.
Speaker 17 (48:43):
Jeremy.
Speaker 12 (48:43):
Yeah, I have a head start on the weekend thirteen hours.
I have more than that ahead of you.
Speaker 11 (48:47):
Wherever you are.
Speaker 1 (48:48):
Yeah, yeah, thank you so much. And Tolliver, as I said,
I have some big news. One is the middle is
going to Sundance Film Festival in Utah, we're going to
be I'm going to be moderating a panel with a
number of former political and military leaders who are in
a new film called Wargame, which is basically gaming out
what would happen if there was another January sixth style
event at the Capitol, but worse. We're going to bring
(49:09):
you that conversation soon and next week we're going to
be live at WWNO in New Orleans talking about school choice.
Republicans want to take that issue statewide in Louisiana.
Speaker 9 (49:19):
Yeah, we want to hear what you think about it.
Call us at eight four four four six four three
three five three or write in at Listen to the
Middle dot com. I want you there to sign up
for our weekly newsletter.
Speaker 3 (49:28):
Come on.
Speaker 1 (49:29):
Thanks so much for listening. Thanks to Nashville Public Radio,
iHeartMedia and all the stations making it possible for everyone
to Listen to the Middle. I'm Jeremy Hobson. Talk to
you next week.
Welcome to the Middle. I'm Jeremy Hobson along here with Tolliver.
Speaker 2 (00:08):
Hi.
Speaker 1 (00:08):
Tolliver, Hello, Jeremy. I have two exciting pieces of news
to tell you, but not until the end of the show,
so stand by. Okay. So we had the Iowa caucuses.
Former President Trump won as expected. He is now sending
out surrogates to say the race is over, but things
could change in the coming days when New Hampshire votes.
After all, only about one hundred and ten thousand people
(00:30):
voted in the Iowa caucuses. That's about fifteen percent of
the state's registered Republicans. Meanwhile, in Taiwan, almost seventy five
percent of its people voted in the presidential election over
the weekend and elevated the vice president Lai Chinta, which
is not what China wanted to happen because President elect
Lai has advocated for Taiwan's independence, and we're going to
(00:52):
get to that in a moment. As we take your
calls at eight four to four four Middle, that's eight
four four four six four three three five three, we're
asking what do you think the US relationship with China
should look like? But first, last week we talked about
another hot topic, which was immigration and border security. We
got a lot of calls and a lot of voicemails.
Listen to this.
Speaker 3 (01:12):
Hello, my name is John from Kansas City, Missouri.
Speaker 4 (01:15):
My name is Lucia. I'm calling from Los Angeles, California.
Speaker 2 (01:19):
II.
Speaker 5 (01:20):
This is Jorge from Minnesota.
Speaker 6 (01:22):
My name is Brenda. I'm growing from Texas.
Speaker 5 (01:24):
I believe that the border.
Speaker 7 (01:26):
Is supposed to be secure.
Speaker 3 (01:28):
It is a complex issue, but if we cut off asylum,
we are cutting off people who that's really need our help.
Speaker 4 (01:36):
In my opinion, the border is a problem, but any
of the funding that could have been used for any
of these things that is being used to support other countries' issues.
So it's almost that catch twenty two.
Speaker 8 (01:49):
I am an illegal immigrant from Kenya, and personally I
believe that we need to be given the chance to
be able to take advantage of being able to live
the American pigment.
Speaker 1 (02:00):
So many amazing calls. Thanks to everyone who called. So
this hour we're asking what should the US policy be
toward China, the second largest economy in the world, one
of our largest trading partners, and of course arrival superpower.
Speaker 9 (02:12):
Absolutely and our number is eight four four four Middle
that's eight four four four six four three three five three.
You can also email us by going to Listen to
the Middle dot com.
Speaker 1 (02:20):
Okay, let's meet our panel. Gary Locke served in the
Obama administration as US Ambassador to China. He was also
Secretary of Commerce. Prior to that was governor of Washington State. Governor.
Welcome to the Middle.
Speaker 10 (02:32):
My pleasure to be with you, Thank you very much.
Speaker 1 (02:34):
And joining us from Taipei. Will Ripley, senior international correspondent
for CNN. Will is great to have you on the
Middle as the first guests joining live from Asia.
Speaker 11 (02:44):
Hey, that's very cool. I'm glad to be glad to
be on the panel. Thanks for having me.
Speaker 1 (02:48):
Well, before we get to the phones, Will Ripley just
explain briefly what is the significance for China and for
the US of this election in Taiwan last weekend.
Speaker 12 (02:58):
Well, this election was essential a decision for Taiwanese voters
if they wanted to continue this policy for the past
eight years under sign when of prioritizing the partnership with
the United States, which includes the billions of dollars in
arms sales, more military cooperation than ever before. But just
in general, much more communication and prioritizing that US relationship
(03:19):
and the relationship with other like minded Western democracies, or
recalibrate the US relationship and try to mend fences with China,
which was the alternative that was being offered by the
KMT and to a lesser extent or a less specific extent,
this third party, the TPP. In the end, the voters
decided that they wanted to continue this strategy of the
(03:40):
Democratic Progressive Party, the current ruling party, although they didn't
give the party a full mandate because they lost control
of parliament largely over their weakness weakness on local issues
such as expensive housing, lack of opportunity, low wages. People
here in Taiwan don't make a lot of money, so
they certainly let their feelings be known on the domestic
front that they wanted some other voices in parliament. But
(04:01):
on the international stage they seem to have put their
confidence behind this ruling party strategy of US over China,
which is exactly the opposite result that Beijing would have wanted.
Speaker 1 (04:12):
And Gary Locke, President Biden was asked a question about
this and answered about the Taiwan elections, saying, we do
not support independence. What is at stake for the United
States here? Why does President Obiden, President Biden have to
say something like that.
Speaker 13 (04:27):
Well, that's because the winning party, the TPP, as will indicated,
has advocated for stronger relations with the United States, but
the TPP has really stood for.
Speaker 10 (04:42):
Independence from China.
Speaker 13 (04:45):
China views Taiwan as really a province very much calls
for the reunification of Taiwan into China. And the TPP
the winning party. It's the third consecutive presidential election that
it has won, first time more than two elections consecutive
(05:06):
elections won by any party, and so this was really
viewed in many ways around the world as the future
of Taiwan. Is it going to like the KMT the
opposition party, do they want to reunify with China or
stay the course in terms of independence. And so that's
why I think it was also important for the President
(05:27):
to reiterate the US position formulated since President Carter and
really begun by President Nixon, of one China the mainland
and that Taiwan is part of the mainland to be
unified peacefully by the people and decided by the people
(05:47):
of both the mainland and Taiwan. Without force. What's interesting
is that the KMT, which has called for stronger ties
with the mainland with China and really supports reunification, at
the same time, made a visit to the United States
and wanted the Biden administration to reaffirm that the United
(06:10):
States would defend Taiwan and come to Taiwan's support in
case of any military intervention.
Speaker 1 (06:18):
Do you think that the United States would do that,
by the way.
Speaker 10 (06:21):
Well, I mean that is part of our treaty.
Speaker 13 (06:23):
That's been a long standing commitment that democratic and Republican
presidents have made ever since the United States re established
relations with Beijing.
Speaker 1 (06:32):
Is that just about our principles were standing with a
democratic ally, or is that about our economic interests and
all the chips that are made in Taiwan and what
it would mean if China were to take over with force.
Speaker 13 (06:47):
Well, that commitment to Taiwan was made even before Taiwan
became such a huge economic power and the world's leading
chip manufacturing facility. But really it was a way, I think,
to chart a middle course support for recognition of Beijing
(07:09):
as the government of the Chinese people and breaking ties
formal diplomatic relations and recognition of Taiwan as a separate country,
but at the same time saying we support Taiwan in
its ability to chart its own course on its terms
in a peaceful fashion with Beijing, and that we would
(07:32):
defend Taiwan if Beijing and the mainland were to exercise
military force against Taiwan.
Speaker 1 (07:40):
I want to go to the phones because we're getting
some calls coming in right now. Tom is joining us
from Honolulu in Hawaii. Tom, go ahead, welcome to the middle.
Speaker 14 (07:49):
Thanks very much. And two of those who are listening,
and I want to say then at Homer, which is
the names HIAI go ahead, yeah, okay, Well, anyway, what
I just wanted to say was that I think that
(08:10):
we should treat Taiwan and uh mainland China exactly the
same way that we would treat and have treated Hong Kong,
because that's a part of China also, and so there
shouldn't be any difference in the way we treat them.
They're all Chinese people, and uh you know, they're part
(08:36):
of mainland China. Therefore we should not share any favoritism
or any difference, uh you know, just like as an
example would be, we would want people to treat California
exactly the same way they would treat Santa Catarina Island,
(08:56):
which is off the coast of California.
Speaker 1 (08:59):
Tom, let me take just ahead.
Speaker 12 (09:01):
Yeah, I would say, so this is I'm glad, You're
really glad you brought that up, Tom, and aloha to
you in Hawaii. We're on islands separated by several hours
of flying. But I'd love to get to yours when
I get when I get a vacation, whatever that's going
to be. Look here in Taiwan, they do not, at
least some many people. The majority of people don't identify
(09:21):
themselves as being part of mainland China, even though there
was a time when the ruling government of Taiwan believed
that it was the legitimate government for all of China.
Then the world switched the recognition, you know, to Beijing.
There was the Chinese Civil War in nineteen forty nine.
The losing side, led by Tchangkai Schek, came here and
set up camp in Taiwan. They said they were the
(09:43):
real China. The Communist Party in Beijing said they were
the real China. And for a long time the world
acknowledged Taiwan. And then when China opened up in the
US formalized diplomatic ties with Beijing. Basically, one by one,
all of the diplomatic allies that had recognized Taiwan as
the only China they then moved over to Beijing. To
the point now just in the last few days now
(10:04):
to a Pacific nation, island nation of twelve thousand people
just switched formal ties over to Beijing, leaving Taiwan with
only twelve formal diplomatic allies. But you know, Taiwan has
had its own government, its own in recent years, since
nineteen ninety six, a democratically elected government, so the people
have chosen their leaders here. It's a very young democracy,
(10:25):
and they were by large at a dictatorship for many
years under Shanghai Shak.
Speaker 11 (10:30):
Essentially he was the one man show.
Speaker 12 (10:32):
But then they transition to democracy and now they elect
every four years a president. Saigwen can't run for reelection
because of term limits. Xijinping, as you know over in China,
has paid the way for himself for life. He just
had an unprecedented third term. But you know, people in
Taiwan don't believe that they're part of mainland China. They
have their own government, they have their own military. They
and even though they haven't formally declared that they are
(10:54):
a separate nation from China because that would essentially spark
a huge war instantly with Beijing, you know, calling that unacceptable.
A lot of Taiwanese are not identifying as being part
of mainland China. This is the this is the quandary,
This is the problem that Taiwan finds itself in right now.
Speaker 1 (11:11):
A reminder, you can reach us at eight four four
middle that's eight four four four six four three three
five three, you know, Tolliver. I'd wager that most listeners
who have at least taken a social studies class in
their life are familiar with President Nixon's famous diplomatic visit
to China.
Speaker 9 (11:27):
Yeah, that's right. Back in nineteen seventy two, Nixon was
the first US head of states to visit the People's
Republic of China, and did so as part of an
effort to normalize relations with the emerging superpower. Listen to this.
Speaker 15 (11:37):
There can be no stable and enduring piece without the
participation of the People's Republic of China, and it's seven
hundred and fifty million people. That is why I have
undertaken initiatives in several areas to open the door for
more normal relations between our two countries.
Speaker 1 (11:59):
Sevendred fifty million people, then one point four billion people
in China now just amazing. A reminder, please go to
our website and you can contribute to the Middle in
any amount. We are trying to raise some money from you.
If you love the show, please do that. Also make
sure that you rate our podcast high rating nice, rating
(12:21):
five stars wherever you listen to your podcast. We're going
to be right back after this. This is the Middle.
I'm Jeremy Hobson. If you're just tuning, in the Middle
is a national call in show. We're focused on elevating
voices from the Middle geographically, politically, and philosophically, or maybe
you just want to meet in the Middle. This hour,
we're talking about America's relationship with China, from trade to technology, cybersecurity,
(12:42):
military activity in the South China Sea, human rights. We
want to hear what you think should the US treat
China like a partner, an adversary, something in between. Tulliver,
what's the number to call in?
Speaker 9 (12:53):
It's eight four four four Middle. That's eight four four
four six four three three five three. You can also
write to us at Listen to the Middle dot com
or on social media.
Speaker 1 (13:01):
I'm joined by Gary Locke, former US Ambassador to China,
and Will Ripley, senior international correspondent for CNN in Taipei.
Before we get back to the phones, Governor Locke, when
you listen to the candidates on the campaign trail right
now in this country, whether they're Republican or Democrat, it's
all about how tough they are on China. Why is that?
Speaker 13 (13:23):
Well, you know, it seems like every major presidential election
cycle and even the congressional cycle, we want to find
someone that we can blame for a lot of our problems,
and we always want to be tough against our major competitors,
whether the competitors or the Soviet Union, adversaries and competitors
(13:44):
Soviet Union, the economic might of Germany and some of
the European countries to the Asia Pacific region. Let me
just say that we certainly have When you asked, is
China a partner, competitor.
Speaker 10 (13:56):
Adversary, it's really all of those.
Speaker 13 (13:58):
We have major differences and concerns with China, their record
on human rights, the rule of law, protection of intellectual property,
and the list goes on. They are obviously a huge
economic competitor. They are intent on being world classed and
(14:22):
dominant in so many areas, whether it's electric automobiles, to
advanced manufacturing, to chip manufacturing, it.
Speaker 10 (14:33):
Et cetera, et cetera.
Speaker 13 (14:35):
And they're doing everything they can, and the government is
encouraging and in fact, the government is participating in some
of these efforts to gain the knowledge that many of
Americans and other countries and inventors and business people have
given their blood, sweat and tears to develop. They and
the Chinese would like to grab that technology that know
(14:55):
how the secret sauce any way they can. At the
same time, so many millions of jobs in America depend
on trade with China. So many products that we take,
take it, that we assume and take for granted in
our daily lives are made in China, high quality, low cost,
which then means more money in the pockets of Americans
(15:17):
that they can spend on vacation, college tuition, healthcare, retirement.
But for instance, China is America's number one export destination
for our agricultural goods. They buy so much of our soybeans,
our corn and wheat and things like that. Almost seventy
(15:39):
sixty five percent of all Boeing airplanes are sold to
overseas carriers, and up until recently, a lot of that
was going to China. So millions of jobs in America
depend on making things in America that we then sell
to China.
Speaker 1 (15:56):
And of course we learned, of course we learned in
the pandemic how much we are also rely on buying
things from China and bring them to this country. I
want to get to the phones.
Speaker 13 (16:04):
Therefore means that we need to kind of diversifly our
supply chain and not be so reliant on China. And
of course we have a lot of concerns about their
technological ambitions and whether or not some of the things
that we do sell to China could be used by
the military in China or in terms of violations of
human rights, and so we're trying to clamp down on
(16:27):
what American companies can sell to China.
Speaker 12 (16:31):
China is also Taiwan's number one trading partner as well,
so the same things that Gary land out in the
US also are are a.
Speaker 11 (16:36):
Factor here as well.
Speaker 12 (16:38):
Talk about cross straight conflict, and yet they rely on
each other economically. China, particularly relies on Taiwan for semi conductors,
those chips that power all of our tech.
Speaker 1 (16:46):
Okay, let's go to Howard in Minneapolis, Minnesota. Howard, welcome
to the middle What do you think here about the
US relationship with China.
Speaker 8 (16:56):
My concern with China is that too long we've let
the economic interests guide our foreign policy. We need to
recognize Taiwan's right to freedom in democracy. Taiwan is connected
to Ukraine, Russia, and China, North Korea, Iran, Syria, a
(17:17):
part of a coalition leading US in the World War Three.
There's only twelve countries that recognize Taiwan. We need to
stand with Taiwan if we're going to be the shining city.
Speaker 2 (17:27):
On the hill.
Speaker 1 (17:28):
Howard, thank you so much for that call. Will Ripley,
you know, he brings up something very interesting when he
talks about Ukraine there. I mean, of course, the issue
of standing with a democratic ally, but also you know,
China and Russia have gotten very close, and you could
see what President She and China has been doing is
really coosing up to US adversaries all over the.
Speaker 12 (17:51):
Place, China, Russia, you know, in North Korea as well.
I mean, I think that caller was spot on in
terms of the concern that these you know, these authoritarian uh,
you know autocrats are aligning uh strategically at least for
the time being, and just waiting for the moment that
the West kind of the democracies crumble. You know, that
not the democracies crumble, but the current cohesion crumbles with
(18:15):
the change in administration.
Speaker 11 (18:16):
Uh.
Speaker 12 (18:17):
You know, this is the disadvantage some might argue that
democracies have is that, you know, the advantage of having
fresh ideas and fresh thought and innovation also means that
there's not necessarily long term consistency like what you can have.
Speaker 11 (18:28):
In a dictatorship.
Speaker 6 (18:29):
Uh.
Speaker 12 (18:29):
And many have said that China Undersesion Ping has essentially
become you know, he's the strongest Chinese leader since now
he's been called the dictator. It's a very sensitive word
from the foreign ministry in Beijing's perspective, but President Biden
used it the German Uh, the German Foreign minister used
it to describe Chjan Ping. We know, Kim Jong Lunin's
a dictator, and the same about Vladimir Putin and all
three of them working together, uh and trying to bolster
(18:51):
each other's efforts on various fronts is obviously alarming. Obviously
there are a lot of differences between Ukraine and Taiwan.
Uh and yet the Taiwanese certainly have wanted very closely
Ukraine and have already made.
Speaker 1 (19:03):
And the Chinese too probably right.
Speaker 12 (19:05):
Sure, absolutely to see how the West responded, what mistakes
Russia made, and at the same time always staying at
least publicly in lockstaff with Putin, and she proclaiming this
this friendship, which means that you know, China's stacking up
all of the allies that would have its back, be
in its corner if it enrages the West by making
a move on a place like Taiwan.
Speaker 1 (19:27):
Down the road, let's go to Andrew, who's in Saint Louis, Missouri. Andrew,
welcome to the middle Go.
Speaker 2 (19:33):
Ahead, Hi.
Speaker 16 (19:36):
My question is about China's bank rolling of African countries
and how America responds to that diplomatically.
Speaker 1 (19:44):
China has has spent a lot of money in African
countries in recent years, Gary Locke, what about that the
US has tried to play a role in African countries
as well, and say, well, we're not being so transactional
as China.
Speaker 17 (19:58):
Is.
Speaker 1 (19:58):
But what do you think about about that question?
Speaker 13 (20:01):
Well, China is really stepping into a void left by
the United States many many decades ago. The United States
was a huge financial supporter of developing countries, helping them
learn best agricultural practices, building hospitals and schools, bringing in
clean water systems, and that was really much of America's
(20:24):
foreign policy soft power, developing friends and helping other countries develop.
Even the members of the US military or defense establishment
say that a key to strong military alliances is a
good foreign policy that includes foreign assistance to these other
(20:45):
countries developing friends. In that vacuum left by the United States,
China has stepped in.
Speaker 10 (20:51):
They're helping build ports, they're building.
Speaker 13 (20:54):
Roads, they're building road initiatives well, and the Belt Road
initiative is really an mansion of a trade route and
really helping sell made in China goods, which creates employment
for the Chinese people, but selling things to the countries
that would benefit from that, and also buying things from
those countries, creating those strong economic ties and partnerships. But
(21:17):
the problem is that some of these investments by China
have been on terms that are very unfavorable, unfair to
the governments of these receiving countries in case they can't
pay back their loans, can't pay back some of the
terms the investment that the Chinese have made, and then
(21:37):
huge almost like foreclosure of the house, where the Chinese
then take over the city, take over the port, become
the owners of these things. And many of these other
countries now are saying, whoa, we better review the terms
of these things, or we better back out of some
of these deals, or we're not going to get involved.
And China has also recognized that maybe they've overstepped, so
(21:59):
they're trying to, you know, be a little bit more
reasonable in some of these investments. But the main point
is America is not doing what it should and other
Western countries are not doing what they should be to
help these four or more developing countries improve the livelihood
the standard of living for their people, and in the
(22:20):
absence of that, China stepping in and building political friends.
Speaker 1 (22:25):
Let's go to Connie who is in Colorado. Connie, welcome
to the middle Go ahead.
Speaker 6 (22:31):
Okay, I was born grew up in mainland in Since
ninety forty nine, Chinese communists shows so many Chinese people.
If you say something against the Communists. They just put
you in hard labor camp or put you in jail.
(23:00):
Communist Party is illegal government.
Speaker 1 (23:04):
So what do you what do you think the United
States should do?
Speaker 2 (23:07):
Then?
Speaker 6 (23:09):
Should not engage with China. United States government to make
so many mistakes since ninety forty five, ninety forty nine,
they just try to believe Communist Party. They just ignore
(23:30):
warming down. Take defeat to Taiwan.
Speaker 1 (23:36):
Connie, thank you so much. I really appreciate you calling
in with that, and I'll take it to Will Ripley.
She brings up an important point. And also we should
mention that many in the United States have pointed to
human rights abuses that have been going on in Shinjong
Province against the Wigers.
Speaker 12 (23:54):
And you know what, the same thing happened in Taiwan
as well. In the years after the Chinese Civil War
under change, there was a period that lasted a martial
law that lasted for decades that's now known as the
White Terror. Taiwan actually had a prison camp for political
prisoners on Green Island in southern Taiwan. It's this little
speck that you have to take a boat for a
very bumpy boat ride for about an hour and a
(24:15):
half to get to I got.
Speaker 11 (24:16):
I got very noxious when I went to visit.
Speaker 12 (24:18):
But you know, it's quite an important sight because it
is a reminder for Taiwan that even in their own
history and not not to distant history, they lived under
martial law, they lived under a dictatorship. A lot of
the politicians who are in power today in Taiwan, particularly
in the Democratic Progressive Party, either they or you know,
the generation right before them, including Taiwan's first female vice president.
Speaker 11 (24:41):
She was shot, she served time in jail.
Speaker 12 (24:43):
I mean, you know, these were people who were meeting,
you know, in secret in basements, illegally, they were being
rounded up and in prison for their political views, and
then they fought. They turned Taiwan into one of the
world's most young and vibrant and really interestingocracies, unlike in
Hong Kong. I know there was a comparison earlier made
between Hong Kong and Taiwan. Here in Taiwan, you know,
(25:06):
watching what happened in Hong Kong was probably the reason,
the main reason that sign when won a landslide reelection
in twenty twenty, because people here in Taiwan said they
didn't want to become the next Hong Kong in Taiwan,
and I lived in Hong Kong.
Speaker 11 (25:17):
I covered the protests.
Speaker 12 (25:18):
A lot of those protest leaders and politicians and activists
and even some journalists they've either been rounded up and
put in jail where they still remain to this day,
or they're living in exile abroad. Whereas here in Taiwan,
the leaders of the Sunflower Movement which stormed parliament in
twenty fourteen to protest a trade deal that was depending
with China under the Kuminthong, the KMT, which was the
(25:40):
ruling party at that time.
Speaker 11 (25:42):
Those students that.
Speaker 12 (25:43):
Protested, some of them now have positions of power inside
the government. So those are two contrasts there to take
a look at. Taiwan is a democracy today, a young democracy,
and people that have grown up, people here in their
twenties or early thirties, you know, that's what they remember.
That's what they've grown up living through. People older than
that remember the times of martial law. They remember what
it was like when Taiwan was not a democracy under
(26:04):
Changhai Shak.
Speaker 1 (26:05):
We're getting some comments in online as well.
Speaker 9 (26:07):
Tolliver, Yeah, Tony and Champagne Illinois, your homes right, the
transformation of China in my lifetime puts our country to shame,
and there's no doubt in my mind that its military
investment is mostly in response to our belligerent attitude. I'm
just thoroughly disappointed in the conduct of our foreign policy
in almost every aspect, but especially in our policy towards China.
They deserve a lot more credit than we're apparently willing
(26:28):
to admit. And I'm sicking that no one in Washington
will listen what.
Speaker 1 (26:31):
About that, Gary Locke, because we did get some comments
in online as well saying that the US should treat
China more as a friend than as an adversary.
Speaker 10 (26:44):
Well, we need to.
Speaker 13 (26:45):
We have to be vigilant in terms of our national security.
We have great concerns about China's intentions with the big
build up of their military in the South China Sea
and how they're taking over and claiming territory worries that
other countries, whether it's Vietnam and the Philippines acclaimed as
(27:05):
their own, and in fact, the World Court has ruled
against China with respect to some of their fortifications and
creation of islands out of the middle of nowhere in
the South China Sea. At the same time I said
before that, yeah, they're an adversary, they're a competitor, but
they're also a partner. There are so many things confronting
(27:27):
the entire world that cannot be solved by the United
States alone or China alone, where the solutions require joint cooperation,
close collaboration between both the United States and China. Take
climate change as an example. If the United States were
to make significant reductions in greenhouse gases in China does
(27:48):
not our efforts, our sacrifices will be for naught.
Speaker 10 (27:51):
And vice versa.
Speaker 13 (27:53):
If China makes huge reductions in greenhouse gases and we
failed to make come inserment reductions, the efforts by China
will be for notught. Because Americans produce more greenhouse gases
per person than any other country in the world. China,
with its one point four billion population, produces more in total,
(28:15):
but they have what four times the population of America.
So the world is depending on concerted collaboration between the
United States and China on climate change, but also with
respect to trying to solve the nuclear proliferation of North
Korea or Iran, finding tres for some of the most
dreaded diseases in the world. The list goes on and on.
Speaker 1 (28:39):
Well, let me just try to sneak in one call
before we have to take a quick break. Christopher in Gainesville, Florida, Christopher,
go ahead, what do you think?
Speaker 18 (28:49):
Yeah, great to be here, and definitely agree with a
lot of Weston said, especially just with US and China
really being dependent upon each other. I guess my main
thing is so for over the past century, we've been
a leader in just promoting democracy as a whole, and
it just seems like with this election in Taiwan, the
people they've given lean on these relations with the US,
(29:14):
and it seems like alienating them now got a good idea,
It doesn't send a good message to the rest of
the world.
Speaker 1 (29:20):
Christopher, thank you so much for that call. We've also
heard from a Bill in Carbondale, Illinois, who said, I
lived and worked in China from twenty ten till twenty
eighteen at a major university. When I returned from China,
I moved to my home state of Illinois. If we're
to avoid a war with China, we should emphasize cooperation
and friendly competition. So many interesting points coming in, and
(29:43):
there's a lot more to get to as we continue.
But you know, Tolliver, a recent poll from Pew Research
Center found that more than a third of Americans viewed
China as an enemy, and a big part of that
is concerns about espionage.
Speaker 5 (29:56):
Oh.
Speaker 9 (29:56):
Absolutely, Like Almost a year ago, a Chinese by balloon
was spotted across the United States. It's before it is
eventually shot down or the coasts out. Remember that day,
very well off the coast of South Carolina. Here's a
clip from a home video of the incident, taken by
a Billings, Montana resident.
Speaker 7 (30:09):
Well, hello, everybody, I am sitting in my driveway here
in Billings, Montana, and right now there is a ground
stop on our airport.
Speaker 1 (30:23):
And this thing is up in the sky. Just amazing.
I love that clip, Doliver. You know, China has actually
sent a balloon over Taiwan since the election last weekend.
That's how they scare people. We are going to be
right back with more of the middle right after this.
This is the Middle. I'm Jeremy Hobson. We're talking about
the US relationship with China. You can call us at
(30:45):
eight four four Middle. Our guests are former US Ambassador
to China, Gary Locke and Will Ripley, Senior CNN International
correspondent based in taype Hey, Taiwan. Before we go back
to the phones, Will Ripley, fentanyl has not come up.
It's a big concern here in the United States. A
lot of the chemicals used to make it originate in China.
(31:05):
They're sent here, they're sent to Mexico. China is an
authoritarian state. If they wanted to stop the flow of something,
they probably could. Why haven't they done so with fentanyl?
Speaker 12 (31:15):
Well, I believe that was one of the issues that
President Biden and President She discussed and were able to
come to some sort of agreement on when they had
those summit talks in San Francisco. The issue of Taiwan
highly contentious and definitely no progress really made on that
on that topic when they were talking. But on the
fentol issue, it seems as if she indicated to President
(31:36):
Biden that China is willing to try to crack down
more on that, and that's basically an easy thing for
him to do, because, as you said, they do have.
Speaker 11 (31:44):
A lot of control.
Speaker 12 (31:45):
But you know, there's also a lot of corruption that
occurs in all levels of China, military and economic and government.
Ches and Ping has tried to root out some of it,
particularly if the corrupt people happen to be political opponents
of his.
Speaker 1 (31:58):
But I'm saying because of the corruption, You're saying, they
may not have the power that we may think they do,
because exactly.
Speaker 12 (32:05):
You know, China, China has kept the North Korean economy going,
for example, even during international sanctions by you know, essentially
looking the other way or just opening up trade routes
altogether with North Korea because they certainly don't want to
see a week in North Korea become a you know,
a US allied North and South right on its doorstep.
You know, North Korea is a buffer for China. The
(32:27):
fentanyl thing, you know, that's that's not an issue that
I've dived too deeply in for my reporting, but I
do know that, you know, obviously China could do more
if they wanted to. And apparently President She told President
Biden that there would be progress made on that. I
have not, though done any original reporting to follow up
on whether the numbers have come down in terms of
fentanyl being smuggled into the United States.
Speaker 1 (32:49):
Well, and it's such a terrible problem in the United States.
Let's go to the phone. Celia is with us from Madison, Wisconsin. Hi, Celia,
welcome to the middle Go ahead, and thank you.
Speaker 17 (32:59):
Very much us for having this program. I'm trying to
make my background very quick, but I have two major questions.
I have a pretty deep background in Chinese issues. I
traveled there with Columbia University group in nineteen eighty two.
I studied under profession share at the UW Experts on
China in the sixties, and then in nineteen ninety seven
(33:22):
I was the main administrative person on the only as
far as I know, is still to stay. The only
conference hell between the scholars from the TRC and Taiwan,
and they I think were surprised to each other is
at how well they got along. I think it's going
to be always going to be a complicated relationship. On
(33:42):
one hand, China comes out of a humanistic culture of
Buddhism and Confucianism, still has hold memories of World War
Two and some of the killings that took place between
the two armories there, and they have this sense of
national morality. But on the other hand, I think mister
(34:07):
she In now knuckling down the Taiwan issue. Maybe over
his head.
Speaker 2 (34:12):
He has problems at home, he's.
Speaker 1 (34:14):
Got so sorry starting to interrupt, but what do you
think that what do you think the United States relationship
with China should be?
Speaker 17 (34:22):
Briefly, I think we just have to take one issue
one by one and deal with kind of and separately
and as a priority, and then see how it all
shakes out again. But has anyone brought up to mister
(34:43):
Shei that he's got North Koreans on his border, refugees,
leiguers in the West, people in Hong Kong that are
not happy, and the last I was told about two thousand,
two hundred and fifty thousand Taiwanese living and doing business
in Taiwan.
Speaker 1 (34:58):
Celia, thank you so much for for that.
Speaker 12 (35:00):
Crest, just say quick quickly. She raises a good point.
She Jiping does have a lot of problems at home.
He's got his unemployment rate.
Speaker 11 (35:06):
It just went up.
Speaker 12 (35:07):
Youth unemployment has scott had been skyrocketing. That is a
huge issue. They've got a shortage of women of child
bearing age, partially, if not largely, because of the one
child policy where people had to choose between whether they're
gonna have a son and a daughter. Now you have
any unequal balance more men than women in China, which
is going to bode pretty bad for their already buckling
(35:28):
healthcare system, which is struggling with the rapidly aging population.
So yeah, there are a lot of domestic problems that
she's has on his play right now.
Speaker 1 (35:35):
Well, an ambassador, let me ask you. You know, she
brings up just the complexity of the relationship, something that
you know, you even getting ready for this show. This
could be a three hour or five hour show. There
are so many aspects of this relationship to get into,
and not most Americans are not going to spend that
much time focused on that. So it's got to be
a very difficult relationship to man as a person who's
(35:56):
the ambassador or in the administration or whatever.
Speaker 10 (36:00):
No, it's a very complex relationship.
Speaker 13 (36:02):
And as the caller indicated, China also has a great
pride in its history. Centuries ago, it was the most
advanced civilization in the world thousands of years ago. I mean,
it was the inventor of the compass, the printing press,
the clock, a seismograph, and the list goes on and on.
So China has a very proud tradition in history, and
(36:22):
it has in some ways a chip on its shoulder,
having been humiliated by the Western Powers during the Opium War,
in which the Western countries Germany, Great Britain, France, the
United States actually carved out territories and parts of major
cities of China and ruled those parts of the cities
(36:43):
where there's Shanghai and other places. And then of course
they were invaded by the Japanese during World War Two.
And you know, the United States actually formed a great
alliance with China even before the outbreak, before Pearl Harbor,
in which we had people like the Flying Tigers providing
military assistance, flying over the Himalayans and providing supplies to
(37:06):
the Chinese army fighting against the Japanese. And of course
some of the policies of Maltseetung, the Great Leap Forward,
and all these things that created such death and poverty
in China. And so China is really just trying to
reassert itself and they are racing to restore their prominence
(37:29):
in the world. At the same time, they're doing it
in ways that violate our standards of fair play of
a level playing field. But at the same time, we
need China, we need to work with China to solve
things like climate change, halting the proliferation of nuclear weapons.
China is a key player in trying to solve the
(37:50):
North Korea problem.
Speaker 10 (37:51):
The United States can't do it alone. China has to
be involved. And China of.
Speaker 13 (37:55):
Course does not want a North Korea that is destabilized,
that somehow where the regime falls and the South takes over,
because as will indicate it, China does not want a
democratic country right on its border, and so they see
North Korea as a buffer.
Speaker 10 (38:14):
But they also know that North Korea is a problem.
Speaker 13 (38:17):
Child, so to speak, and they very much want that
issue solved so that the United States or South Korea
or other countries don't take unilateral military action against North Korea.
Speaker 1 (38:30):
Let's go back to the phones and Carl is in Minneapolis. Carl,
welcome to the middle. What do you think.
Speaker 5 (38:37):
I'd like to agree with Thomas from Minneapolis who called
earlier and about the whole China funding Russia and the
war against Ukraine. And that's a whole other topic. But
I think that America needs to wake up and see
that a lot of these companies like Amazon need to
(39:01):
show American Americans that that a lot of these products
are made in China and that we need to be
aware of where all of our products are coming from.
Speaker 1 (39:17):
Okay, Carl, thank you for that call, and let me
get to Cooper in Gifford, Connecticut. Cooper, go ahead. What
do you think the US relationship with China should be?
Speaker 14 (39:29):
Hello?
Speaker 19 (39:32):
I was currently wondering how the United States would be
able to maintain relations with China and back Taiwan without
confronting them further or severing current relations. In the last
couple of years, since the US has begun to back
Taiwan more, we start to see diplomacy with the country
(39:52):
come to a halt and even some sanctions. How do
you think going forward we'd be able to address this
tense relationship between the two countries well, not escalating the conflict.
Speaker 1 (40:06):
Okay, I think we have to take that to the
ambassador because this is something you probably had to think
about when you were ambassador. What do you think how
do we how do you keep a good relationship with
Taiwan while not making things worse with China?
Speaker 10 (40:18):
Well, for many, many years, the United States has been
selling advanced weapons to Taiwan to help boaster their defenses.
Speaker 13 (40:25):
That is, of course, has raised the ire of Beijing,
but they accept it, they.
Speaker 10 (40:32):
Will protest it.
Speaker 13 (40:33):
China in in response, has made a lot of military incursions,
a lot of military activity, flights very close over the
airspace of Taiwan, and as well indicated during the most
recent Taiwan presidential elections, they had like ten balloons, spy
balloons flying over you know, you know Taiwan does I mean,
(40:54):
China doesn't need.
Speaker 10 (40:55):
To use these spy balloons.
Speaker 13 (40:56):
They have satellites that are high up in the air
that can gained just about as much information. But sometimes
these balloons, at least with respect to Taiwan, is more
psychological intimidation.
Speaker 10 (41:08):
But let me just say that.
Speaker 13 (41:11):
Hijing, being because of his domestic problems at home, has
to come out as a strong person renouncing and coming
out boldly against any notions of independence by Taiwan, formal
declarations of independence.
Speaker 10 (41:27):
We, of course the United States have said that.
Speaker 13 (41:29):
We support a one China, but we want the integration
of Taiwan into China to be on the terms established
by the people of Taiwan as well as the leaders
of China, without military force. What's interesting about the recent
Taiwan presidential elections is that the winning party, which is
(41:49):
advocated for independence got only forty percent of the vote.
The two opposition parties combined had sixty percent.
Speaker 10 (41:58):
And while they want.
Speaker 13 (42:01):
They want the status quo, but they're saying we don't
want to provoke the mainland, And even the TPP, the
winning party, has been saying, well, we don't need to
really declare independence.
Speaker 10 (42:16):
We too like the status quo.
Speaker 13 (42:18):
And so in some ways the election was about who's
going to be more belligerent and who's going to be
more confrontational while trying to maintain this fragile relationship. And
as we'll indicate it, both I mean Taiwan and China
are major trading partners, so many people of Taiwan are
the investors and owners of major enterprises and businesses in China,
(42:42):
providing jobs for millions of Chinese people. So they need
each other. Well, much of the election was really focused on, well,
some of the other domestic issues.
Speaker 1 (42:53):
Let's sneak in another call here, Robert in Bloomington, Illinois, Robert,
go ahead, welcome to the middle.
Speaker 2 (43:01):
Great show, great show. The situation, the situation with Taiwan
is unsustainable. Either we have to endorse their independence or
we have to uh facilitate reunification. This ambiguity is going
to end up in disaster. It's unsustainable. You know, we
(43:21):
created a culturvo at Bosnia out of carved it out
of Yugoslavia, and everybody supposed to accept that. So this
situation is just, you know, very hard to deal with.
Speaker 1 (43:36):
So what would you do? Would you would you support
reunification or not?
Speaker 2 (43:41):
No, I would not. I would go for independence and
be it and and and uh support true democracies and
not be hypocritical. You know, if you want to do
everything that's in the US national interests, then you have
to be a hypocrit.
Speaker 1 (43:57):
Well will Ripley your thoughts on that?
Speaker 12 (44:00):
Well, a lot of Taiwanese would agree. I mean, even
the two opposition parties that by the way, they almost
had a joint ticket, but then in this dramatic live
television meltdown, the TPP and the KMT, the two opposition
they were not able to cooperate and so they had
to run separately. But yeah, they had you know, you know,
who knows how things would have ship, you know, turned
out had it been a two way race with the
(44:22):
you know, one of those two opposition parties and the
winning ruling party the Democratic Progressive Party or DPP, you know,
had had had that racement differently, we might be having
a whole different conversation right now. But a lot of Taiwanese,
particularly younger Taiwanese, identified not as Chinese. They identify as Taiwanese.
And so even though you know, technically the Taiwan Constitution
(44:42):
still calls themselves the Republic of China, you know that
at one point they viewed themselves as the legitimate government
over all of the Chinese mainland. That's not the widely
held view here in Taiwan anymore. It's been you know,
seventy eight plus years and they've been running their own
show with their own military, and they've done pretty darn
well for themselves considering what was built up posts nineteen
(45:04):
forty nine and what they've become now. You know, even
though they only have a dozen formal diplomatic allies, they
have a lot of very close democratic friends around the world,
friends that they hope will be behind them, be in
their corner if and when the time comes, if China
tries to make a unilateral.
Speaker 11 (45:20):
Move to force this absorption.
Speaker 12 (45:22):
As they view it, they don't view it as reunification,
which is what China says it is because they point
out that the communist rulers in Beijing have never once
controlled this island. It was the losing side that came
over and set up shop. The Communists never controlled Taiwan,
even though they always use that word reunification here in Taiwan.
They say it would be a forceful absorption essentially.
Speaker 1 (45:42):
Tulliver, you know, I like to push limits. I'm going
to try to squeeze one more call in right now,
and that is Mitchell and tallahassee go ahead.
Speaker 16 (45:50):
What do you think, Yes, I think we should be
very vigilant our relationship should be vigilants regarding China. I
think we should consider or their police stations that they
have around the globe internationally in regards to keeping track
of Chinese individuals who are speaking against the Chinese the CPP.
(46:11):
I think we should be vigilant about the towards them.
Regarding fentanol coming across the southern border, I think we
should be vigilant whenever we do business with them, and
they should consider who they are doing business with, people
who are free thinking, people who know what freedom is
and what liberty is. And I think they see that
(46:34):
every election across the waters at Taiwan, and I think
we should protect democracy across the globe as well.
Speaker 1 (46:42):
Mitchell, thank you for that call. And I want to
just tell our listeners, by the way, because there were
many more calls on the line, that if you still
have things to say about China or questions, you can
call and leave a message at eight four four for
Middle because we are going to be doing a special
podcast extra on this with Bill Kirby, Professor of China
Studies at Harvard University, responding to your questions in comments,
(47:05):
so you can go to listen to the Middle dot
Com with more questions. We do have time just because.
Speaker 13 (47:10):
Ahead, I'd like to point out that given all the
tensions between the United States and China, and under both
the Trump administration and the Biden administration, there have been
more restrictions on trade exports of American made technology, especially
to China, which might end up being used for military purposes.
(47:30):
But in all of this, and with the campaigns of
Democrats and Republicans and the presidential elections coming up, there's
so much vilification of China. And yes, we have major
differences with the policies of Beijing, differences on human rights,
on technology, rule of law, theft of intellectual property. But
(47:52):
what concerns me is that a lot of this concern, animosity,
vilification of China is spilling over onto Chinese Americans, and
that so many Chinese Americans, even people never born in China,
been here for many generations, don't even speak Chinese, are
(48:13):
somehow viewed as spies, agents of the communist government.
Speaker 10 (48:18):
But that we are all loyal to Beijing, and it
was great to hear.
Speaker 1 (48:24):
It was great to hear, by the way, from a
Chinese American who called in. Unfortunately we've run out of time,
but I want to thank my guest, former US Ambassador
to China, Gary Locke, thank you so much for being here.
And Bill Ripley, a senior international correspondent for CNN based
in Taipei, will thank you. Have a lovely Friday. It's
already Friday there for you.
Speaker 10 (48:43):
Thanks.
Speaker 17 (48:43):
Jeremy.
Speaker 12 (48:43):
Yeah, I have a head start on the weekend thirteen hours.
I have more than that ahead of you.
Speaker 11 (48:47):
Wherever you are.
Speaker 1 (48:48):
Yeah, yeah, thank you so much. And Tolliver, as I said,
I have some big news. One is the middle is
going to Sundance Film Festival in Utah, we're going to
be I'm going to be moderating a panel with a
number of former political and military leaders who are in
a new film called Wargame, which is basically gaming out
what would happen if there was another January sixth style
event at the Capitol, but worse. We're going to bring
(49:09):
you that conversation soon and next week we're going to
be live at WWNO in New Orleans talking about school choice.
Republicans want to take that issue statewide in Louisiana.
Speaker 9 (49:19):
Yeah, we want to hear what you think about it.
Call us at eight four four four six four three
three five three or write in at Listen to the
Middle dot com. I want you there to sign up
for our weekly newsletter.
Speaker 3 (49:28):
Come on.
Speaker 1 (49:29):
Thanks so much for listening. Thanks to Nashville Public Radio,
iHeartMedia and all the stations making it possible for everyone
to Listen to the Middle. I'm Jeremy Hobson. Talk to
you next week.
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