This week we’ve seen some pretty frightening headlines about food allergies and food contamination. Microbiologist Michael Robach (yes, Amy’s Dad) sits down with T.J. and Amy to talk about how a common tick bite led to a meat allergy that killed a New Jersey man. It’s important information everyone should hear. Then we dive into the massive baby formula recall that sickened 23 infants with Botulism. We talk about what botulism is, how it enters the food chain and what every parent needs to know.
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Episode Transcript
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Speaker 1 (00:02):
A healthy forty seven year old man died hours after
eating a hamburger, and this incident and how he ended
up with a meat allergy is something now doctors are
trying to raise awareness about. Welcome to this episode of
(00:22):
Amy and TJ Robes. This is something you saw the headlines.
I'm like, what the hell are you talking about? And
it was worth a headline because this is something that
has never ever happened before.
Speaker 2 (00:35):
Yes, this is the first known death tied to an
allergic reaction to.
Speaker 3 (00:40):
Red meat caused by a tick bite.
Speaker 2 (00:43):
This scared the heck out of me because a few
years ago I actually ended up with a tickborn illness.
Never knew I was bitten by a tick, never had
any other symptoms other than a high fever and muscle aches.
Went to the doctor and it takes a lot to
get me into the doctor's office these days. And was
(01:04):
shocked so then to think, my god, this guy didn't
realize he had been bitten by a tick. I had
no idea that a tick could cause a red meat allergy.
Speaker 4 (01:17):
What was your tickborn illness?
Speaker 3 (01:19):
It was Rocky Mountain spotted fever.
Speaker 2 (01:20):
I was actually covering a hurricane in North Carolina, I
was in floodwaters. Obviously, somehow, some way a tick got
on me, and within a week I got back home,
I started I had a high fever, I felt achy
and to the point where I was I didn't think
I could go to work, and I thought, you know what,
I better just go ahead, given my crazy medical history,
(01:42):
and have a.
Speaker 3 (01:43):
Doctor take a look.
Speaker 2 (01:44):
She took blood work from me and she said, well,
you got a tickborn illness. We got to get some
antibiotics in you.
Speaker 4 (01:49):
Okay, how soon did you catch it?
Speaker 2 (01:51):
I caught it within the first phase, thank goodness. With
Rocky Mountain spotted fever, if you get an antibiotics within
the first couple of weeks, you're going to be fine.
When you don't know and you don't have symptoms that
other issues and other problems can arise.
Speaker 4 (02:04):
Okay, I didn't know this was the thing.
Speaker 1 (02:07):
I don't spend that much time throughout my life just
out in the woods, frankly, so this wasn't something that
I just grew up with an awareness of. Obviously, this
is a big deal, and people are aware of just
how dangerous the tick can be. This headline, yes, folks,
for the first time in recorded medical history, a person
has died after picking up an allergy.
Speaker 4 (02:33):
From a tick bite.
Speaker 1 (02:35):
A healthy, forty seven year old man from New Jersey
died after he had a tick bite. I guess he
did not realize it that tick bite resulted in him
developing a meat allergy that he, of course, at forty
seven his whole life, he hadn't had. So he develops
one and ends up dying. Now, this is the first
(02:57):
time it's ever happened, but ropes. I didn't realize that
this type of thing, at least a tick born what'd
you call it, illness born illness? I didn't realize it
was that common, But it's very uncommon that it got
to this point. But this is something Now, this did
not have to happen. And this is they're saying, at
(03:18):
least rope, this is something that people need, at least
not even if it's not the general public. Doctors, the
medical community needs to be on the lookout for this.
Speaker 2 (03:28):
Right, it's rare enough that that might not be something
that doctors are aware of or at least consider or
think about. When someone comes in, you think food poisoning,
you think something else.
Speaker 3 (03:38):
So we actually have an expert.
Speaker 2 (03:40):
Here with us today happens to be my father, Michael Roboch,
who is a microbiologist, And actually we were asking you, Dad,
you're in town, and we were like asking you all
about this story because I was fascinated by it and
you provided a significant amount of insight into what this is.
(04:00):
But can you explain how getting bitten by a tick
or having a tick embed itself and you can lead
to a meat allergy?
Speaker 5 (04:09):
Yeah, it's thanks for having me, It's great to be here.
Speaker 3 (04:13):
Welcome to the podcast.
Speaker 5 (04:14):
Yeah, I do, I do appreciate it. So yeah, I mean,
it's an interesting phenomenon. And in the case of this
individual in New Jersey, three weeks prior to him dying,
he had experienced symptoms after eating a steak and those
(04:36):
symptoms were things like hives and a rash and swelling,
and really didn't think anything of it. And then three
weeks later he has a hamburger at a barbecue and
within the next couple of hours he goes into anaphylactic
shock and dies. So what happened? What happened? His w
(05:00):
I've said he didn't have any tick bites, but later
examination showed that he did. She thought they were chiger bytes.
But they were actually a tick bite from the lone
star tick, and he had several From what I understand
and what happens, these ticks feed on mammalian blood out
(05:21):
in the wild, so they'll attach themselves to a deer
or any animal, and in doing so they take in
a compound called alpha gal and it's a molecule that's
carried in the saliva of these ticks after they fed
on mammalian blood. Subsequently, they can then bite a human
(05:48):
and in doing so, they deposit some of their saliva
into the bloodstream of the human and your body then
develops antibodies against this foreign molecule, and then you become
sensitized to this alpha gal which is found commonly in
(06:12):
mammalian meat, So beef, pork, lamb, goat, venison, any animal
mammal that you then subsequently consume can put you in
great danger because your body will now react to the
presence of that alpha gal molecule.
Speaker 4 (06:33):
You're now allergic.
Speaker 5 (06:35):
You're now allergic. Okay, just was he just.
Speaker 1 (06:38):
Unlucky and ran into this particular tick that just happened
to bite into some particular animal.
Speaker 4 (06:45):
Was this just an unlucky thing?
Speaker 5 (06:48):
Well, think about it. Ticks normally feed on mammals, so
they're gonna get on mammals and they're going to be
sucking their blood and getting their nutrition from the animal.
So most ticks probably are carrying this alpha gal molecule
in their saliva. So if you get a tick bite,
(07:08):
there's a very good chance that you know you've had
this introduced into your body and you could be at risk.
And remember now, the first symptoms the first time you
eat meat afterwards, and sometimes this takes a few weeks
to develop. It doesn't happen immediately. And if you eat
(07:28):
red meat and all of a sudden you're feeling like
you're getting the hives, or you're itching, or you feel
like you've got swelling going on, it would be a
very good time to talk to your doctor about understanding
what's happening. There is a blood test they can screen
for these antibodies, and if you are found to have
(07:51):
these antibodies, you would be well advised to cease eating
mammalion meat.
Speaker 4 (07:58):
Wow.
Speaker 5 (07:58):
Now you can still eat you can still eat chicken,
and you can still eat fish, but you can't eat
the meat from a mammal.
Speaker 2 (08:06):
Wow. So no burgers, no steak, no bacon, no pork,
no sausage, like all of the things that are such
a huge.
Speaker 3 (08:12):
Part of our diet.
Speaker 5 (08:13):
It would be a sad existence.
Speaker 2 (08:17):
But this so, this is the first known death from
this allergy. But you were telling us that, I mean,
obviously this is rare, so to speak. But when you
told me the numbers of people who doctors or scientists
believe may actually be living with this allergy, it was
a little shocking to me.
Speaker 5 (08:36):
Yeah, the CDC is estimating that upwards of a half
a million people in the United States could be carrying
this sensitivity around with them and just not know it.
Speaker 3 (08:47):
And you say sensitivity.
Speaker 2 (08:49):
But when it comes to allergies, and you've told me
this because I've dealt with allergies in my life, every
time you're exposed then to whatever you have now developed
an allergy to, it can worsen and eventually lead to death.
Speaker 5 (09:01):
Right, every time you get exposed, you're just priming your
immune system to pump out more and more antibodies, and
in doing so, then you can go into what is
known as anaphylactic shock, where you basically you're just your
immune system overwhelms your body and you end up dying.
Speaker 3 (09:23):
Your body attacks itself.
Speaker 5 (09:25):
That's right.
Speaker 1 (09:27):
So this is potentially what happened to this guy, right
that first time around, he got really sick, right he
had that first bit of red meat. Now if someone
if he because I didn't know this, if he had
been aware that he had a tick bite, maybe after
he had gotten sick, he would have reacted differently. But
I don't know if I have a tick bite and
(09:47):
then I eat something and I don't feel well that
I need to go check out, get checked out.
Speaker 4 (09:51):
Do people know this?
Speaker 5 (09:53):
No, they don't. I mean, and I think that's why
this is coming into the headlines. It's to really create,
as you said earlier, TJ. Awareness. People need to be
aware that this exists. You know, it's been documented not
only in the United States, but also in other parts
of the world. There have been cases reported in Sweden,
(10:14):
in South Africa and Australia. So these have been documented
cases and there's now quite a bit of research going on,
you know, trying to understand the mechanism and are there
things that you can do because there is no cure.
There is no cure. I mean, it's really all about avoidance.
You know, if you've got a trigger and you have
(10:35):
this these antibodies floating around in your body. It's almost
what you could consider a ticking time bomb, you know,
and the subsequent exposures make the reaction more and more severe.
Speaker 3 (10:48):
So you're advice.
Speaker 2 (10:49):
So I'm now, I'm just having had that experience with
having a tick born illness and not even knowing I
was bitten by a tick.
Speaker 3 (10:57):
It's scary. And I am an outdoorsy person.
Speaker 2 (10:59):
Any one who hikes, anyone who is outdoors is at
risk for being obviously bitten by a tick.
Speaker 3 (11:06):
So what would you tell people? And you even said
doctors aren't.
Speaker 2 (11:10):
Even as aware as they should be, perhaps about this
particular situation where you could end up with a meat allergy.
But what should people be aware of if you get
hives for the first time, if you after eating something.
It's just hard to connect the dots for lay people,
especially if you don't know you've been bitten by a tick.
(11:32):
What should be your level of awareness? What should be
your I don't know any guidance for folks.
Speaker 5 (11:37):
Well, I mean, really, the best thing is to avoid
getting bitten by a tick, you know, and so there
are steps that you can take, you know, to you know,
prevent a tick from getting on your body and biting you.
And if you do find a tick attached, the best
thing to do is to get it off of you
as soon as possible so that you minimize the amount
(12:00):
of this alpha gal molecule that enters your body. So
those are just the practical things to do. But again,
once that has been set in motion, once that allergy
is set in motion, there's no stopping it. And that's
what makes this so dangerous.
Speaker 2 (12:19):
Is there anything that doctors could have done, or that
anyone could have done to save this man, this New
Jersey man, once he already ate the hamburger, so this
is now his second exposure to red meat. Could they
have done anything to save his life? Had he known
this was an allergic reaction happening.
Speaker 5 (12:37):
Not after he ate the hamburger? I mean, you know,
I mean if he had been able to be tested
after he got ill after eating the steak three weeks previous,
they may have been able to determine that he did
have this allergic potential and therefore he could have avoided
eating red meat.
Speaker 4 (12:58):
Damn.
Speaker 1 (13:00):
Can you We talk about kids growing out of allergies,
but as an adult, can you grow out of or
get medicated out of analogy or is it once you
get it? Is it just with you? Seriously?
Speaker 4 (13:14):
Can you don't know this?
Speaker 5 (13:16):
I mean, I mean, yeah, I think when when people
I mean your immune system. If you've got circulating antibodies,
then those antibodies are there and they're just waiting for
that foreign molecule to show up so that they can
attack it, you know. And so that's just something that no,
we don't really have a cure for right now.
Speaker 1 (13:39):
Once it's with you, it's with you. What do you say,
a sad existence, a meat allergy?
Speaker 4 (13:43):
Can you imagine?
Speaker 2 (13:44):
So just don't get bitten by a tick, that is
the advice, and that makes a lot of sense. And
there are things you can do in terms of the
clothing you wear, any sort of well you just you.
Speaker 3 (13:55):
Just don't hike.
Speaker 2 (13:55):
So there you go, Yeah, getting bitten by a tick
anytime soon.
Speaker 1 (14:01):
I went to a camp once as a kid, like
a week sleep away camp whatever thing.
Speaker 4 (14:07):
Yeah, and they had to check us for tics. When
we were going home.
Speaker 1 (14:09):
I had to lift up and doing all the time,
like what are you all doing? Wasn't I wasn't rolling
around out there in the woods. I think I'm probably
fine all right, but stay with us here, folks. This
wasn't the only medical headline this week that had folks alarmed,
in particular parents botulism in baby formula. Stay here, all right, folks,
(14:38):
Welcome back to Amy A.
Speaker 4 (14:39):
TJ. Ropes. We had two medical headlines.
Speaker 1 (14:44):
I was scratching my head about right, the first ever
death related to a tick born illness really with a
meat allergy, I mean, what the hell? We tried to
figure that out, and then all of a sudden, botulism.
I have to admit, I had to google botulism. I
had to go back and try to figure out, like,
what are we talking about here? Botulism in baby formula
(15:05):
was a big headline this week, and you can imagine why.
Speaker 2 (15:09):
Yes, twenty three babies in thirteen states got sickened and
were hospitalized because they were exposed to botulism in their
baby formula. This is what look I actually ended up for.
I had my own medical reasons why I actually had to.
Speaker 3 (15:28):
My babies were formula babies.
Speaker 2 (15:30):
To think that the thing you're giving your children to
nourish them, to help them grow in, to think that
you were actually poisoning them is so scary. You have
to trust formula. You have to be able to trust
what you're putting into your children. And so, yes, this
is frightening, as frightening as it gets.
Speaker 1 (15:46):
Then you said the word poison, and when you say
that related to anything related to a child, it's terrifying.
So by heart is the name of this company. They
flat out they pulled all of their products off the market,
just pulled everything because botulism was detected.
Speaker 4 (16:02):
Again, how many kids you say, twenty eight.
Speaker 3 (16:05):
Twenty three?
Speaker 2 (16:05):
This is this is rare and thankfully nobody was.
Speaker 3 (16:08):
Actually no babies died as of yet. And I say that,
just the potential is there.
Speaker 2 (16:14):
Yes, this can be a deadly reaction to this neurotoxin.
And yes, speaking of neurotoxins, I don't know a lot
about the subject, but my dad certainly does, and he's
still here with us.
Speaker 1 (16:27):
How did you react seeing that headline that folks were
that botulism was an issue.
Speaker 5 (16:33):
Infant botulism isn't anything new. There have been cases in
the past of infant botulism associated with organic honey. There
was a big outbreak several years ago in California where
many infants were sickened because they were being fed organic
(16:54):
honey that contained the spores of Clousternium bochulinum, which is
the organism that produces the boculinum toxin. The disease is
called botulism, but it's caused by as amy set, a
neurotoxin produced by a bacteria called Clusternium boculinum. It's an
anaerobic bacteria, so it grows without the presence of oxygen,
(17:20):
and of course honey is a great place for these
spores to live because they're going to be kind of protected,
and then when the baby ingests them, the babies have
undeveloped microbiomes, so there's not a lot of competition in
the gut, so these botulism organisms are able to spoulate,
(17:42):
grow and produce a neurotoxin WOW, which can potentially be
deadly because it causes all sorts of neurological issues because
it blocks the synapse between your nerves and your muscles.
So essentially, your muscles cease to function because they're not
(18:04):
getting the message from your central nervous system. And when
death occurs, it often occurs because the diaphragm is essentially
paralyzed and you're unable to breathe, so it's not a
fun disease.
Speaker 3 (18:20):
That's horrific. Actually, it is a.
Speaker 5 (18:22):
Horrific and people in the past, having contracted botulism from
a variety of sources. People would be put on iron lungs,
you know in the old days, so that you know
that iron lung would breathe for you because your diaphragm
was unable to function. So it is a frightening situation.
(18:46):
And by Heart whole nutrition infant formula, as Amy said,
there have been twenty three infants in thirteen states, and
there's epidemiological evidence and laboratory data showing that this infant
formula might be contaminated with clusterradium batchline which is causing
(19:07):
the illnesses around the country.
Speaker 2 (19:09):
Well, I would say you mentioned Dad that you there
was a recent or a similar situation with organic honey.
That stood out to me because by Heart infant formula
is organic. They they that it's one of their their
organic infant formula. Does that have anything to do with it?
Is there any connection between those two things.
Speaker 5 (19:30):
It's really hard to say. I mean, the investigation by
the FDA is still ongoing, so they haven't identified a source.
Was it an ingredient that went into the formula. Was
it something that happened during the manufacturing of the formula.
So there are still a lot of things that need
(19:50):
to be understood. I'm not familiar with their process or
how they source their ingredients. So that's something the FDA
will continue to to investigate. And you know, right now,
it's just top of mind that you know, we need
to be aware of this formula out there and if
(20:10):
anybody has any and in their home that it needs
to be destroyed.
Speaker 4 (20:15):
What does that look botula? Where does it live? How
can it like on a surface? How can it get
into formula?
Speaker 5 (20:21):
Hu well Klos treating Batchulinum is a it's a it's
a it's a spore and and so it can survive
in the soil, it can survive in water, it can
survive in a variety of different environments for a long
period of time. And then when it's put into an
environment where it can grow, then it goes through a
(20:43):
process that we call spoulation, and then the actual bacterium
cell begins to grow, and as it grows, it produces
this neurotoxin. So it's normally found in improperly processed canned
foods because those can foods would be anaerobic, there would
be no oxygen in there. And if they're not heated
(21:07):
long enough and at a high enough temperature, the spores
can survive. They'll survive pasteurization temperatures. So they have to
be what we call commercially sterilized. So if you get
like canned soups or anything like that, they've gone through
a commercially sterile process. So the bacteria the clusternim botch
(21:28):
A linum, and those cans have been destroyed. It has
been associated with vacuum package meat in the past where
that's been improperly processed and improperly stored. It hasn't been refrigerated.
Clustrini botchelinum. The types here are normally have to have
warm temperatures in order to grow. But what's dangerous is
(21:50):
when it's ingested by an infant who, as I said earlier,
has an undeveloped microbiome. There is no other competing organisms
in the gut to out compete this organism and drop
the pH of the gut down to an acidic level
that will not allow this bug to grow.
Speaker 2 (22:07):
Well, Thank goodness, there have been no infant depths and
yes to your point. All federal officials, anyone involved with
this recall.
Speaker 3 (22:17):
Have all urged parents get rid of this stuff. You
don't want it anywhere near you.
Speaker 2 (22:23):
Is there anything or what should parents look out for
in terms of if your infant is experiencing or showing
any kind of symptoms, take them. You want them going
straight to the doctor or they can be tested for this.
Speaker 3 (22:38):
How do they determine this what's going on? Okay?
Speaker 5 (22:40):
Yeah, I mean they would. You'd want to take your
child to the pediatrician and have the symptoms, you know,
looked at and understand, you know, what might be going on,
and if there is an issue, they can there is
assistance for breathing. You know that could be a p Now,
(23:00):
all all of these children have been hospitalized, so they
were all taken to I'm assuming an emergency room and
they were put on some sort of a ventilator I
would assume to help them breathe.
Speaker 2 (23:14):
Wow, because that's the scary thing. Mentioned that your lungs
literally get paralyzed. When we first did the story last week, bachulism,
I'm thinking botox.
Speaker 3 (23:24):
Yeah, we paralyzed the muscles in.
Speaker 2 (23:26):
Our faces so we can look younger and not create wrinkles,
But thinking about that as it applies to your lungs
or a little baby's lungs, that is altogether a very
different situation.
Speaker 4 (23:37):
Use both us.
Speaker 3 (23:38):
Yes for years, yes I stopped.
Speaker 4 (23:41):
You didn't tell me I didn't know.
Speaker 3 (23:44):
Yes, please asistance.
Speaker 4 (23:50):
And your dad is really smart.
Speaker 3 (23:52):
He is so proud of him.
Speaker 5 (23:55):
You know what we can say. You are our first.
Speaker 4 (23:59):
In home studio guests we've.
Speaker 5 (24:01):
Had, right is right?
Speaker 3 (24:03):
Oh, yes, Dad's in the podcast studio. This is great.
Nice to have you.
Speaker 2 (24:07):
Thank you for you know, he came here just to
enjoy a weekend and we've already put him to work,
so we do need to say thank you, thank you
for that.
Speaker 5 (24:15):
Well, I'm very happy to be here, and I'm very
happy to help out in any way that I can.
Speaker 2 (24:21):
Well, we appreciate you, and you certainly have always been
my go to when I need to understand science or
at least certainly in some of these scary headlines we've
been seeing this week, I immediately thought of you. So we
hope all of you listening also learned something and hopefully
had to take away from some of these news stories
we've heard this week. So Dad, thank you very much.
(24:42):
Mike roboch for being on the podcast, Thank you for listening.
I made me Robach alongside TJ. Holmes, and we will
talk to you soon.
A healthy forty seven year old man died hours after
eating a hamburger, and this incident and how he ended
up with a meat allergy is something now doctors are
trying to raise awareness about. Welcome to this episode of
(00:22):
Amy and TJ Robes. This is something you saw the headlines.
I'm like, what the hell are you talking about? And
it was worth a headline because this is something that
has never ever happened before.
Speaker 2 (00:35):
Yes, this is the first known death tied to an
allergic reaction to.
Speaker 3 (00:40):
Red meat caused by a tick bite.
Speaker 2 (00:43):
This scared the heck out of me because a few
years ago I actually ended up with a tickborn illness.
Never knew I was bitten by a tick, never had
any other symptoms other than a high fever and muscle aches.
Went to the doctor and it takes a lot to
get me into the doctor's office these days. And was
(01:04):
shocked so then to think, my god, this guy didn't
realize he had been bitten by a tick. I had
no idea that a tick could cause a red meat allergy.
Speaker 4 (01:17):
What was your tickborn illness?
Speaker 3 (01:19):
It was Rocky Mountain spotted fever.
Speaker 2 (01:20):
I was actually covering a hurricane in North Carolina, I
was in floodwaters. Obviously, somehow, some way a tick got
on me, and within a week I got back home,
I started I had a high fever, I felt achy
and to the point where I was I didn't think
I could go to work, and I thought, you know what,
I better just go ahead, given my crazy medical history,
(01:42):
and have a.
Speaker 3 (01:43):
Doctor take a look.
Speaker 2 (01:44):
She took blood work from me and she said, well,
you got a tickborn illness. We got to get some
antibiotics in you.
Speaker 4 (01:49):
Okay, how soon did you catch it?
Speaker 2 (01:51):
I caught it within the first phase, thank goodness. With
Rocky Mountain spotted fever, if you get an antibiotics within
the first couple of weeks, you're going to be fine.
When you don't know and you don't have symptoms that
other issues and other problems can arise.
Speaker 4 (02:04):
Okay, I didn't know this was the thing.
Speaker 1 (02:07):
I don't spend that much time throughout my life just
out in the woods, frankly, so this wasn't something that
I just grew up with an awareness of. Obviously, this
is a big deal, and people are aware of just
how dangerous the tick can be. This headline, yes, folks,
for the first time in recorded medical history, a person
has died after picking up an allergy.
Speaker 4 (02:33):
From a tick bite.
Speaker 1 (02:35):
A healthy, forty seven year old man from New Jersey
died after he had a tick bite. I guess he
did not realize it that tick bite resulted in him
developing a meat allergy that he, of course, at forty
seven his whole life, he hadn't had. So he develops
one and ends up dying. Now, this is the first
(02:57):
time it's ever happened, but ropes. I didn't realize that
this type of thing, at least a tick born what'd
you call it, illness born illness? I didn't realize it
was that common, But it's very uncommon that it got
to this point. But this is something Now, this did
not have to happen. And this is they're saying, at
(03:18):
least rope, this is something that people need, at least
not even if it's not the general public. Doctors, the
medical community needs to be on the lookout for this.
Speaker 2 (03:28):
Right, it's rare enough that that might not be something
that doctors are aware of or at least consider or
think about. When someone comes in, you think food poisoning,
you think something else.
Speaker 3 (03:38):
So we actually have an expert.
Speaker 2 (03:40):
Here with us today happens to be my father, Michael Roboch,
who is a microbiologist, And actually we were asking you, Dad,
you're in town, and we were like asking you all
about this story because I was fascinated by it and
you provided a significant amount of insight into what this is.
(04:00):
But can you explain how getting bitten by a tick
or having a tick embed itself and you can lead
to a meat allergy?
Speaker 5 (04:09):
Yeah, it's thanks for having me, It's great to be here.
Speaker 3 (04:13):
Welcome to the podcast.
Speaker 5 (04:14):
Yeah, I do, I do appreciate it. So yeah, I mean,
it's an interesting phenomenon. And in the case of this
individual in New Jersey, three weeks prior to him dying,
he had experienced symptoms after eating a steak and those
(04:36):
symptoms were things like hives and a rash and swelling,
and really didn't think anything of it. And then three
weeks later he has a hamburger at a barbecue and
within the next couple of hours he goes into anaphylactic
shock and dies. So what happened? What happened? His w
(05:00):
I've said he didn't have any tick bites, but later
examination showed that he did. She thought they were chiger bytes.
But they were actually a tick bite from the lone
star tick, and he had several From what I understand
and what happens, these ticks feed on mammalian blood out
(05:21):
in the wild, so they'll attach themselves to a deer
or any animal, and in doing so they take in
a compound called alpha gal and it's a molecule that's
carried in the saliva of these ticks after they fed
on mammalian blood. Subsequently, they can then bite a human
(05:48):
and in doing so, they deposit some of their saliva
into the bloodstream of the human and your body then
develops antibodies against this foreign molecule, and then you become
sensitized to this alpha gal which is found commonly in
(06:12):
mammalian meat, So beef, pork, lamb, goat, venison, any animal
mammal that you then subsequently consume can put you in
great danger because your body will now react to the
presence of that alpha gal molecule.
Speaker 4 (06:33):
You're now allergic.
Speaker 5 (06:35):
You're now allergic. Okay, just was he just.
Speaker 1 (06:38):
Unlucky and ran into this particular tick that just happened
to bite into some particular animal.
Speaker 4 (06:45):
Was this just an unlucky thing?
Speaker 5 (06:48):
Well, think about it. Ticks normally feed on mammals, so
they're gonna get on mammals and they're going to be
sucking their blood and getting their nutrition from the animal.
So most ticks probably are carrying this alpha gal molecule
in their saliva. So if you get a tick bite,
(07:08):
there's a very good chance that you know you've had
this introduced into your body and you could be at risk.
And remember now, the first symptoms the first time you
eat meat afterwards, and sometimes this takes a few weeks
to develop. It doesn't happen immediately. And if you eat
(07:28):
red meat and all of a sudden you're feeling like
you're getting the hives, or you're itching, or you feel
like you've got swelling going on, it would be a
very good time to talk to your doctor about understanding
what's happening. There is a blood test they can screen
for these antibodies, and if you are found to have
(07:51):
these antibodies, you would be well advised to cease eating
mammalion meat.
Speaker 4 (07:58):
Wow.
Speaker 5 (07:58):
Now you can still eat you can still eat chicken,
and you can still eat fish, but you can't eat
the meat from a mammal.
Speaker 2 (08:06):
Wow. So no burgers, no steak, no bacon, no pork,
no sausage, like all of the things that are such
a huge.
Speaker 3 (08:12):
Part of our diet.
Speaker 5 (08:13):
It would be a sad existence.
Speaker 2 (08:17):
But this so, this is the first known death from
this allergy. But you were telling us that, I mean,
obviously this is rare, so to speak. But when you
told me the numbers of people who doctors or scientists
believe may actually be living with this allergy, it was
a little shocking to me.
Speaker 5 (08:36):
Yeah, the CDC is estimating that upwards of a half
a million people in the United States could be carrying
this sensitivity around with them and just not know it.
Speaker 3 (08:47):
And you say sensitivity.
Speaker 2 (08:49):
But when it comes to allergies, and you've told me
this because I've dealt with allergies in my life, every
time you're exposed then to whatever you have now developed
an allergy to, it can worsen and eventually lead to death.
Speaker 5 (09:01):
Right, every time you get exposed, you're just priming your
immune system to pump out more and more antibodies, and
in doing so, then you can go into what is
known as anaphylactic shock, where you basically you're just your
immune system overwhelms your body and you end up dying.
Speaker 3 (09:23):
Your body attacks itself.
Speaker 5 (09:25):
That's right.
Speaker 1 (09:27):
So this is potentially what happened to this guy, right
that first time around, he got really sick, right he
had that first bit of red meat. Now if someone
if he because I didn't know this, if he had
been aware that he had a tick bite, maybe after
he had gotten sick, he would have reacted differently. But
I don't know if I have a tick bite and
(09:47):
then I eat something and I don't feel well that
I need to go check out, get checked out.
Speaker 4 (09:51):
Do people know this?
Speaker 5 (09:53):
No, they don't. I mean, and I think that's why
this is coming into the headlines. It's to really create,
as you said earlier, TJ. Awareness. People need to be
aware that this exists. You know, it's been documented not
only in the United States, but also in other parts
of the world. There have been cases reported in Sweden,
(10:14):
in South Africa and Australia. So these have been documented
cases and there's now quite a bit of research going on,
you know, trying to understand the mechanism and are there
things that you can do because there is no cure.
There is no cure. I mean, it's really all about avoidance.
You know, if you've got a trigger and you have
(10:35):
this these antibodies floating around in your body. It's almost
what you could consider a ticking time bomb, you know,
and the subsequent exposures make the reaction more and more severe.
Speaker 3 (10:48):
So you're advice.
Speaker 2 (10:49):
So I'm now, I'm just having had that experience with
having a tick born illness and not even knowing I
was bitten by a tick.
Speaker 3 (10:57):
It's scary. And I am an outdoorsy person.
Speaker 2 (10:59):
Any one who hikes, anyone who is outdoors is at
risk for being obviously bitten by a tick.
Speaker 3 (11:06):
So what would you tell people? And you even said
doctors aren't.
Speaker 2 (11:10):
Even as aware as they should be, perhaps about this
particular situation where you could end up with a meat allergy.
But what should people be aware of if you get
hives for the first time, if you after eating something.
It's just hard to connect the dots for lay people,
especially if you don't know you've been bitten by a tick.
(11:32):
What should be your level of awareness? What should be
your I don't know any guidance for folks.
Speaker 5 (11:37):
Well, I mean, really, the best thing is to avoid
getting bitten by a tick, you know, and so there
are steps that you can take, you know, to you know,
prevent a tick from getting on your body and biting you.
And if you do find a tick attached, the best
thing to do is to get it off of you
as soon as possible so that you minimize the amount
(12:00):
of this alpha gal molecule that enters your body. So
those are just the practical things to do. But again,
once that has been set in motion, once that allergy
is set in motion, there's no stopping it. And that's
what makes this so dangerous.
Speaker 2 (12:19):
Is there anything that doctors could have done, or that
anyone could have done to save this man, this New
Jersey man, once he already ate the hamburger, so this
is now his second exposure to red meat. Could they
have done anything to save his life? Had he known
this was an allergic reaction happening.
Speaker 5 (12:37):
Not after he ate the hamburger? I mean, you know,
I mean if he had been able to be tested
after he got ill after eating the steak three weeks previous,
they may have been able to determine that he did
have this allergic potential and therefore he could have avoided
eating red meat.
Speaker 4 (12:58):
Damn.
Speaker 1 (13:00):
Can you We talk about kids growing out of allergies,
but as an adult, can you grow out of or
get medicated out of analogy or is it once you
get it? Is it just with you? Seriously?
Speaker 4 (13:14):
Can you don't know this?
Speaker 5 (13:16):
I mean, I mean, yeah, I think when when people
I mean your immune system. If you've got circulating antibodies,
then those antibodies are there and they're just waiting for
that foreign molecule to show up so that they can
attack it, you know. And so that's just something that no,
we don't really have a cure for right now.
Speaker 1 (13:39):
Once it's with you, it's with you. What do you say,
a sad existence, a meat allergy?
Speaker 4 (13:43):
Can you imagine?
Speaker 2 (13:44):
So just don't get bitten by a tick, that is
the advice, and that makes a lot of sense. And
there are things you can do in terms of the
clothing you wear, any sort of well you just you.
Speaker 3 (13:55):
Just don't hike.
Speaker 2 (13:55):
So there you go, Yeah, getting bitten by a tick
anytime soon.
Speaker 1 (14:01):
I went to a camp once as a kid, like
a week sleep away camp whatever thing.
Speaker 4 (14:07):
Yeah, and they had to check us for tics. When
we were going home.
Speaker 1 (14:09):
I had to lift up and doing all the time,
like what are you all doing? Wasn't I wasn't rolling
around out there in the woods. I think I'm probably
fine all right, but stay with us here, folks. This
wasn't the only medical headline this week that had folks alarmed,
in particular parents botulism in baby formula. Stay here, all right, folks,
(14:38):
Welcome back to Amy A.
Speaker 4 (14:39):
TJ. Ropes. We had two medical headlines.
Speaker 1 (14:44):
I was scratching my head about right, the first ever
death related to a tick born illness really with a
meat allergy, I mean, what the hell? We tried to
figure that out, and then all of a sudden, botulism.
I have to admit, I had to google botulism. I
had to go back and try to figure out, like,
what are we talking about here? Botulism in baby formula
(15:05):
was a big headline this week, and you can imagine why.
Speaker 2 (15:09):
Yes, twenty three babies in thirteen states got sickened and
were hospitalized because they were exposed to botulism in their
baby formula. This is what look I actually ended up for.
I had my own medical reasons why I actually had to.
Speaker 3 (15:28):
My babies were formula babies.
Speaker 2 (15:30):
To think that the thing you're giving your children to
nourish them, to help them grow in, to think that
you were actually poisoning them is so scary. You have
to trust formula. You have to be able to trust
what you're putting into your children. And so, yes, this
is frightening, as frightening as it gets.
Speaker 1 (15:46):
Then you said the word poison, and when you say
that related to anything related to a child, it's terrifying.
So by heart is the name of this company. They
flat out they pulled all of their products off the market,
just pulled everything because botulism was detected.
Speaker 4 (16:02):
Again, how many kids you say, twenty eight.
Speaker 3 (16:05):
Twenty three?
Speaker 2 (16:05):
This is this is rare and thankfully nobody was.
Speaker 3 (16:08):
Actually no babies died as of yet. And I say that,
just the potential is there.
Speaker 2 (16:14):
Yes, this can be a deadly reaction to this neurotoxin.
And yes, speaking of neurotoxins, I don't know a lot
about the subject, but my dad certainly does, and he's
still here with us.
Speaker 1 (16:27):
How did you react seeing that headline that folks were
that botulism was an issue.
Speaker 5 (16:33):
Infant botulism isn't anything new. There have been cases in
the past of infant botulism associated with organic honey. There
was a big outbreak several years ago in California where
many infants were sickened because they were being fed organic
(16:54):
honey that contained the spores of Clousternium bochulinum, which is
the organism that produces the boculinum toxin. The disease is
called botulism, but it's caused by as amy set, a
neurotoxin produced by a bacteria called Clusternium boculinum. It's an
anaerobic bacteria, so it grows without the presence of oxygen,
(17:20):
and of course honey is a great place for these
spores to live because they're going to be kind of protected,
and then when the baby ingests them, the babies have
undeveloped microbiomes, so there's not a lot of competition in
the gut, so these botulism organisms are able to spoulate,
(17:42):
grow and produce a neurotoxin WOW, which can potentially be
deadly because it causes all sorts of neurological issues because
it blocks the synapse between your nerves and your muscles.
So essentially, your muscles cease to function because they're not
(18:04):
getting the message from your central nervous system. And when
death occurs, it often occurs because the diaphragm is essentially
paralyzed and you're unable to breathe, so it's not a
fun disease.
Speaker 3 (18:20):
That's horrific. Actually, it is a.
Speaker 5 (18:22):
Horrific and people in the past, having contracted botulism from
a variety of sources. People would be put on iron lungs,
you know in the old days, so that you know
that iron lung would breathe for you because your diaphragm
was unable to function. So it is a frightening situation.
(18:46):
And by Heart whole nutrition infant formula, as Amy said,
there have been twenty three infants in thirteen states, and
there's epidemiological evidence and laboratory data showing that this infant
formula might be contaminated with clusterradium batchline which is causing
(19:07):
the illnesses around the country.
Speaker 2 (19:09):
Well, I would say you mentioned Dad that you there
was a recent or a similar situation with organic honey.
That stood out to me because by Heart infant formula
is organic. They they that it's one of their their
organic infant formula. Does that have anything to do with it?
Is there any connection between those two things.
Speaker 5 (19:30):
It's really hard to say. I mean, the investigation by
the FDA is still ongoing, so they haven't identified a source.
Was it an ingredient that went into the formula. Was
it something that happened during the manufacturing of the formula.
So there are still a lot of things that need
(19:50):
to be understood. I'm not familiar with their process or
how they source their ingredients. So that's something the FDA
will continue to to investigate. And you know, right now,
it's just top of mind that you know, we need
to be aware of this formula out there and if
(20:10):
anybody has any and in their home that it needs
to be destroyed.
Speaker 4 (20:15):
What does that look botula? Where does it live? How
can it like on a surface? How can it get
into formula?
Speaker 5 (20:21):
Hu well Klos treating Batchulinum is a it's a it's
a it's a spore and and so it can survive
in the soil, it can survive in water, it can
survive in a variety of different environments for a long
period of time. And then when it's put into an
environment where it can grow, then it goes through a
(20:43):
process that we call spoulation, and then the actual bacterium
cell begins to grow, and as it grows, it produces
this neurotoxin. So it's normally found in improperly processed canned
foods because those can foods would be anaerobic, there would
be no oxygen in there. And if they're not heated
(21:07):
long enough and at a high enough temperature, the spores
can survive. They'll survive pasteurization temperatures. So they have to
be what we call commercially sterilized. So if you get
like canned soups or anything like that, they've gone through
a commercially sterile process. So the bacteria the clusternim botch
(21:28):
A linum, and those cans have been destroyed. It has
been associated with vacuum package meat in the past where
that's been improperly processed and improperly stored. It hasn't been refrigerated.
Clustrini botchelinum. The types here are normally have to have
warm temperatures in order to grow. But what's dangerous is
(21:50):
when it's ingested by an infant who, as I said earlier,
has an undeveloped microbiome. There is no other competing organisms
in the gut to out compete this organism and drop
the pH of the gut down to an acidic level
that will not allow this bug to grow.
Speaker 2 (22:07):
Well, Thank goodness, there have been no infant depths and
yes to your point. All federal officials, anyone involved with
this recall.
Speaker 3 (22:17):
Have all urged parents get rid of this stuff. You
don't want it anywhere near you.
Speaker 2 (22:23):
Is there anything or what should parents look out for
in terms of if your infant is experiencing or showing
any kind of symptoms, take them. You want them going
straight to the doctor or they can be tested for this.
Speaker 3 (22:38):
How do they determine this what's going on? Okay?
Speaker 5 (22:40):
Yeah, I mean they would. You'd want to take your
child to the pediatrician and have the symptoms, you know,
looked at and understand, you know, what might be going on,
and if there is an issue, they can there is
assistance for breathing. You know that could be a p Now,
(23:00):
all all of these children have been hospitalized, so they
were all taken to I'm assuming an emergency room and
they were put on some sort of a ventilator I
would assume to help them breathe.
Speaker 2 (23:14):
Wow, because that's the scary thing. Mentioned that your lungs
literally get paralyzed. When we first did the story last week, bachulism,
I'm thinking botox.
Speaker 3 (23:24):
Yeah, we paralyzed the muscles in.
Speaker 2 (23:26):
Our faces so we can look younger and not create wrinkles,
But thinking about that as it applies to your lungs
or a little baby's lungs, that is altogether a very
different situation.
Speaker 4 (23:37):
Use both us.
Speaker 3 (23:38):
Yes for years, yes I stopped.
Speaker 4 (23:41):
You didn't tell me I didn't know.
Speaker 3 (23:44):
Yes, please asistance.
Speaker 4 (23:50):
And your dad is really smart.
Speaker 3 (23:52):
He is so proud of him.
Speaker 5 (23:55):
You know what we can say. You are our first.
Speaker 4 (23:59):
In home studio guests we've.
Speaker 5 (24:01):
Had, right is right?
Speaker 3 (24:03):
Oh, yes, Dad's in the podcast studio. This is great.
Nice to have you.
Speaker 2 (24:07):
Thank you for you know, he came here just to
enjoy a weekend and we've already put him to work,
so we do need to say thank you, thank you
for that.
Speaker 5 (24:15):
Well, I'm very happy to be here, and I'm very
happy to help out in any way that I can.
Speaker 2 (24:21):
Well, we appreciate you, and you certainly have always been
my go to when I need to understand science or
at least certainly in some of these scary headlines we've
been seeing this week, I immediately thought of you. So we
hope all of you listening also learned something and hopefully
had to take away from some of these news stories
we've heard this week. So Dad, thank you very much.
(24:42):
Mike roboch for being on the podcast, Thank you for listening.
I made me Robach alongside TJ. Holmes, and we will
talk to you soon.
Hosts And Creators
Lauren Zima
Chris Harrison
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