January 19, 2024 • 37 mins
WOAH you won’t believe what you are going to learn in this one…
Chris and Lauren hold nothing back when talking about sex and intimacy…expert advice you need to know.
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Episode Transcript
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Speaker 1 (00:01):
This is the most dramatic podcast ever and iHeartRadio podcast.
Chris Harrison and Lauren Zema coming to you from the
home office in a very chilly Austin, Texas. I hope
everybody kind of survived that big winter push that came
across the country. And if you are still very cold,
(00:22):
I think we're gonna heat things up today.
Speaker 2 (00:24):
You know what's great about this topic is we've actually
been talking about this episode and also with the cold here,
and there are a lot of sex puns that have
come out of our conversation, Like our pipes froze then
we were like, oh, the water's dripping now, oh wait,
we needed to get more wet, so the pipe's there's
a lot.
Speaker 3 (00:43):
Okay, so we're about to get dirty on today's show. Well,
I mean, but yes, we're talking about sex. We're talking
about sex, hopefully in a very helpful way today with
Vanessa and Xander Morin.
Speaker 1 (00:54):
They are married. Vanessa is a sex therapist, licensed psycho therapist,
twenty years of experience in the sex therapy field. Xander's
just a regular dude who's been married to a sex
therapist for over a decade. They do not have kids.
A conscious choice. She and Xander do a lot of
(01:15):
social media work together, which I find very interesting. It's
very effective. I love the social media of the doctors
and therapists that we have had on. I think they're
using it in the right way of how to reach
the everyday person and make these digestible notes totally.
Speaker 2 (01:32):
And actually I think they wrote their book together. They
are New York Times best selling authors of the book
Sex Talks, Sex Talks, Sex Talks, which is all about
these five conversations you can start to really help your
love life. So they wrote that book together. They do
their Instagram and social media together. And yeah, I think
(01:53):
she is, as you said, licensed family therapists, marriage therapist,
sex therapist, but they see to be coworkers just like
we are. So I think this we're gonna have some
fun today. We're gonna ask them some questions. We have
questions that we have based off some celebrity sex headlines
that have been in the news lately. And also I
went to Instagram and we got questions from you all.
(02:16):
So we are gonna, I think, put this into two
episodes and get through all things to talk about sex baby.
Speaker 1 (02:23):
And if you want to check them out, you can
go to their Instagram Vanessa and Xander with an ex
Xander and check out their stuff. But we're going to
dive into it and we are so glad to have
them on the show today.
Speaker 2 (02:36):
All right, we are joined now by Vanessa and Xander Marin.
Oh my gosh, you guys, we have so many questions
to ask you.
Speaker 4 (02:44):
By the way, some I asked.
Speaker 2 (02:46):
Our audience for questions and got some words in my
DMS that have never been in my dms before, So
it's gonna be good.
Speaker 4 (02:54):
First though, we wanted.
Speaker 2 (02:55):
To ask you, Vanessa, just to kind of clarify for
everybody in the layman's tern, what does a sex therapist do.
Speaker 5 (03:05):
A sex therapist helps you have a healthy and happy
sex life, quite simply.
Speaker 6 (03:11):
So.
Speaker 5 (03:11):
I actually started my career in the traditional psychotherapy setting,
working with people like one on one or two on one,
but when Xander joined my business, we actually made this
shift into working more in the online space. So we
create online guides, courses, challenges, things like for play guides,
sex Challenges, Next Level Intercourse, but all with that same
(03:32):
goal of helping couples have incredible sex plofes.
Speaker 1 (03:36):
This might sound weird, but which came first the chicken
of the egg here, Xander, did you guys get married
and start hooking up first and be intimate and then
you started working together? How did that work?
Speaker 6 (03:51):
Well? I was definitely not one of Vanessa's clients. We
actually we actually met far before Vanessa was a psychotherapist.
We met before she went to grad school, and so
we got together about sixteen years ago at this point,
and you know, a couple of years into our relationship,
Vanessa went to graduate school, became a psychotherapist, and then
(04:14):
started practicing. So it's been in the last six years
or so that I've been involved with her. Before before that,
she built this whole business on her own.
Speaker 5 (04:22):
But I thought it would be kind of cool to
have this husband and wife duo and to be able
to talk about things, you know, as a real life
couple ourselves with our community. We really share honestly about like, yeah,
we've been together sixteen years. We know what it's like
to have ups and downs and times that feel less
exciting and than others, and so it's been really cod
the Lorner and I.
Speaker 1 (04:41):
Were talking, I think it makes a lot more relatable
to know there is a couple behind all of this,
because like you said there is checks and balances, right,
you get the female perspective, but then you like, I
kind of want to know what the dude thinks because
it's not just one sided here. So I think it
does make it a lot more relatable.
Speaker 2 (04:57):
Yeah, and we were excited to talk to you guys too,
because like, we work together, you know, we live together,
we work together, we do everything together. So look, am
I trying to get a little free therapy out of this?
Speaker 4 (05:07):
Maybe? But it it is.
Speaker 5 (05:11):
It always turns into a good episode when the host
is willing to get vulnerable themselves. I'll say it always
turns into a good episode.
Speaker 1 (05:17):
But I liked your social media post when it was
you know the common things that are said. It's like, well, okay,
so I have a friend that.
Speaker 4 (05:26):
Right, it's not my friend as this question.
Speaker 1 (05:28):
And being you know, the host of The Bachelor of
so many years, people would come to me often with
their love stories and their sex stories. I mean I
vividly remember sitting at an airport bar just having a
cocktail and a lunch and someone started just telling me
all about their sex life. And I'm sure it's the
same to you. Sometimes you just want to go to
a Christmas party. You really don't want to hear about
(05:49):
everybody's intimate details, or.
Speaker 4 (05:51):
Do you, Vanessa?
Speaker 5 (05:53):
I do?
Speaker 3 (05:55):
I do.
Speaker 6 (05:57):
Passion.
Speaker 5 (05:57):
I was like, pull up a chair, yeah, tell me
more about it.
Speaker 1 (06:00):
This's get weird. Tell me how.
Speaker 5 (06:02):
About the topic. I think it's so interesting. So I'm
happy to be cornered in the you know, over in
the corner and the party.
Speaker 1 (06:10):
And before we dive in. I mean, I'm curious because
I find it interesting too. Any I think anything that
is quote unquote taboo or some people love to talk
about it, some people don't want to talk about it.
Religion goes in and out of it all. What do
you find so fascinating about it that you have made
it your life's work.
Speaker 5 (06:27):
What I find most fascinating is how ashamed and embarrassed
we all are about this act that we all do.
You know, to me, sex is one of the most natural,
normal human things that we do, and also has the
capacity to be one of the most joyful and exciting
and pleasurable experiences, and yet we all feel so ashamed
(06:47):
and embarrassed and alone. I mean, I think the most
common question that we get asked is is this normal?
And we've gotten asked that question about some of the
most normal things you can imagine, Like, yeah, we'll say,
is it normal that I really like making out with
my husband? Is it normal that I have this certain
way that I want sex to be initiated. It's like, yeah,
(07:08):
that's totally fine. So I really like to help people
bridge that gap and recognize like we're all normal. It's
all okay, I love that.
Speaker 2 (07:17):
Well, then you know, what's the number one thing you
find yourself having to clear up with people the most often.
Speaker 5 (07:25):
There's so many, but a very common one is just
the general idea of sex requiring any sort of effort.
So we all see it play out in movies and
on TV. You know, we see characters just have this immediate,
incredible chemistry. Sex is always like, you know, they make
eye contact at each other and then like ten seconds later,
(07:45):
it's on and they're dashing off into the bedroom, ripping
clothes off, and then you see like the ten second
montage and everybody's happy and satisfied and you know, falling
back into the pillow after that. And so we all
grow up seeing the scene replayed over and over again,
and it gives us this idea that great sex is
just supposed to happen if you found the right person,
(08:06):
if you're really with your match, it should be easy, effortless, spontaneous.
Speaker 6 (08:11):
You never have to talk about it.
Speaker 5 (08:13):
You never have to talk about it, never have to
put any sort of work into.
Speaker 6 (08:15):
You, definitely never need to go to therapy for it.
Speaker 5 (08:18):
And so yeah, one of the that's one of the
big misconceptions that we really clear up for people. We
actually tell people like, let's view sex like a hobby.
So what's one of your hobbies for the two of you?
Speaker 1 (08:30):
Love to play golf. She loves Harry Potter.
Speaker 5 (08:36):
Okay, mus golf because it's a little bit easier, Like, okay,
so you love golf, what are some of the things
that you do to get even better at golf?
Speaker 1 (08:45):
Of course, you go to the golf range, you take lessons,
you pour money and time and effort into it. You
don't just show up and you haven't done it for
a year and you're gonna be good. You got to
work at.
Speaker 5 (08:55):
It, exactly, And do you ever judge yourself for that?
Speaker 6 (08:57):
Is it?
Speaker 5 (08:58):
Like, oh wow, how embarrassed saying that I want to
be a better golfer? Like this is so strange that
I have to practice.
Speaker 1 (09:05):
You know what's funny for Essa actually what I say
and Xander, I don't know if you play golf, but
there are people you play golf with and they really
really really suck. And when they suck at it, they
get so mad they'll throw clubs, they'll cuss and all this.
And my thing is, what have you ever done to
get better? Like why would you expect to show up
Thursday and just be Tiger Woods? You can't. And I
(09:29):
would assume the same thing goes for Friday night in
the bedroom. You can't just show up if you haven't
put any time and effort into.
Speaker 5 (09:34):
It, exactly. And I like framing it as a hobby
because I think that makes it feel so much lighter.
Like if we think about like, okay, I need to
get better at sex, that feels a little scary, right,
like what do I do? How do I get better?
It's embarrassing to admit that I'm not. But if we
think about it as a hobby, it just makes the
energy feel so much lighter. And we all have those
examples of like, yeah, no, I love playing golf, so
(09:57):
it makes sense that I'm going to invest in it.
It's a sign of respect of how much I love
golf that I'm willing to play so many rounds and
invest in equipment and take lessons in all the things.
So if we can have that same sort of vibe
towards our sex life, I think it can help all
of us immensely.
Speaker 4 (10:13):
I love that.
Speaker 2 (10:14):
One thing I've actually said to friends before is, well, you, guys,
the first time you have sex with someone is never
the best time you had sex with that person.
Speaker 1 (10:24):
Yeah.
Speaker 4 (10:24):
I mean, I can't speak for a one night stand.
You know that we were one and done or something.
Speaker 2 (10:28):
But if you're in a relationship, nobody's ever like the
first time was the best.
Speaker 4 (10:31):
And it's been all downhill since then. That doesn't happen.
Practice makes perfect.
Speaker 5 (10:36):
Yeah.
Speaker 6 (10:36):
We actually we call that exact concept the first pancake rule.
It's kind of like when you're making pancakes, the first
one or the first batch always comes out a little
weird and you're like, oh God, like did I do
the batter wrong? And then you keep going and it
gets better and better and then they look totally normal.
And the exact same thing is true for sex, whether
it's your first time with a new partner or your
first time back after a bit of a dry spell
(10:59):
or something. Yeah, trying something brand new that that same
rule applies. It's always it's going to be a little awkward.
Things might not go exactly the way you want them to.
And you know, you could either judge yourself and feel
really ashamed like you've done something wrong, like oh god,
that one horribly, I can never do it again, or
you can laugh and be like, oh yeah, you know,
the first time you try anything, it's pretty much never perfect.
(11:23):
So you know, why don't we get back in the
sack and keep working on it?
Speaker 1 (11:38):
So how is this applicable to the listener who want
to get better? Like like golf, like pickleball, whatever your
your passion is, whatever your hobby is. Okay, let's treat
sex like this.
Speaker 2 (11:50):
You guys mentioned sex challenges. Is that part of practicing
is that something?
Speaker 1 (11:55):
Yeah, what are things? Give us some tangible things that
we can all do that will get us right, get
us better.
Speaker 5 (12:01):
We love breaking this down for people because like, where
did we ever get the chance to learn how to
be better at sex? Like it's not like you can
you know, we don't have the same thing we have
with golf coaches and stuff like that. It's not quite
as accessible, and so that's what our business is all about,
is really breaking it down for people like step by
step here specific techniques to use, do this and then
(12:21):
this and then that. So like our Ultimate four Play
guides are the perfect example of that. It's not generic
advice like oh just experiment, just like try some new things.
We're really walking through like specific techniques to try and
how to communicate with your partner about that. And the
challenges are really really fun too, giving you new things
to try out with.
Speaker 2 (12:41):
Yeah.
Speaker 6 (12:41):
Yeah. With our Sex Challenge, what we do is, you know,
we for we have thirty different days of like two
prompts each day of different activities you can try, like
a more sensual type of activity and then a more
sexual type of activity. But what we try to do
is throughout all that give all kinds of different things
to do that are not just intercourse because so many
(13:02):
people think, oh yeah, well, okay, sex equals intercourse and
it's just all about doing the intercourse right and you know,
being perfect at that, but there's so many other things
to do. It's like once you actually start to feel
confident that oh yeah, there's like all these different tools
in my tool belt. There's all these different activities that
we can do, and I know that, you know, I
can give my partner a really great experience. It takes
(13:25):
the pressure off the intercourse and lets you realize like,
oh yeah, there's so many items on the menu, so
many fun things to try.
Speaker 4 (13:32):
God, you're so right.
Speaker 2 (13:33):
I'm sitting here thinking about like, because just like you said,
we all see these scenes in movies and all that.
I do think we've all been sort of trained to
think that orgasm that like, the sex is the that's
what we're all going for. That's the big thing, and
everything else is just a step to get there. Like,
I mean, I'm kind I'm going back to the bachelor, babe.
But you know, maybe it's about the journey.
Speaker 1 (13:54):
It is about the journey. It's not a James Bond
movie where you barely meet the person then the next
thing you know, he's in the show.
Speaker 4 (14:00):
Next tidy.
Speaker 1 (14:01):
Yeah, saving the world.
Speaker 4 (14:02):
Well, you two went viral.
Speaker 2 (14:04):
You made a lot of headlines because you announced that
you were doing this. I don't know if you would
call it one of your challenges, but you were making
out every night, and you wanted to just make out
with each other every night, and the goal was not sex.
It was just we're gonna spend some time making out
like teenagers every night. So are you still doing that?
And what benefits have you seen?
Speaker 5 (14:23):
We are still doing it. Yeah, So for anybody who
hasn't seen that video, the original idea behind that was
I realized one day that Xander and I really did
not make out very much anymore. Like when we first
started dating, we made out for hours and hours and
it was just one of the most fun things imaginable,
like that chemistry was so intense. But like Xander said,
(14:45):
we've been together for sixteen years. You guys have maybe
experienced this yourself, like as you get into a long
term relationship, we just don't really make out very much anymore.
And so two things were coming up for me. One
was like I miss that, Like there's something so sweet
and innocent about making out. It just it brings you
back to those teenage years where it felt so exciting.
(15:06):
And the second thing was that I was noticing that
we would only make out during or write in the
lead up to sex. So I was starting to get
a little bit on guard when Xander would initiate a
makeout with me because my brain was going to, oh,
he's wanting to have sex right now, and so that
would put me into this like, oh, well, do I
want to have sex right now or not?
Speaker 6 (15:25):
And we both kind of realized that that was happening
for both of us because you know, after those early
you know, kind of honeymoon months or year or whatever
at the beginning of our relationship, I think so often
like life catches up with you and all of a sudden,
sex which seems so easy and happening so naturally without
much planning, all of a sudden, it's like you got
(15:45):
a full load of work and life and social stuff,
and like sex is not always the first thing on
your mind. And so I know for me too, I
would find myself thinking like, oh she's she's kissing me up.
There's a little bit of tongue like, oh am, I
do I want to have sex right now? I have
time to have sex. And it was like, and we
both kind of were talking about it. It was like, oh, wow,
we're both thinking the same thing, and it's like, how
(16:07):
sad is it that we're shutting down these moments of connection,
these moments where we each you know, can just feel
happy and good about each other because we're worried about
what might or might not happen next.
Speaker 5 (16:21):
So we started making out. I said, let's do it
every single night before bed, and we have the explicit
rule like it is not going to lead to sex
at the beginning, And so we have been doing that
for years now and it's just become this really sweet routine,
this ritual that we have together that we know, like
at the end of the night, we're always going to
have this little makeout session. Sometimes it's like ten seconds
(16:44):
if we're really tired and just wanting to go to bed.
Other nights it's a couple of minutes. But it's just
been so sweet to be able to have that moment
of connection with each other, and it's really brought down
the barriers to making out and feeling like this pressure
that it has to lead to more.
Speaker 2 (17:00):
Is there something physiological there, because I think when we
have a deep kiss, I feel emotionally connected, like is
there something happening with hormones or don't I mean, what's
going on there?
Speaker 5 (17:13):
Yeah. Research has shown that a six second kiss, when
you have that, your body starts to release oxytocin, which
is otherwise known as the cuddle hormone. It's the hormone
that promotes bonding, a sense of trust, and relaxation. So
there really is something physiological that's happening as long as
you're doing it for at least six seconds.
Speaker 6 (17:31):
Yeah, and the same is true, I think for a
thirty second hug. So it's like a six second kiss,
thirty second hug. That's basically the time that we need
in order to really kind of settle in and get
those hormones releasing. But the reality is a lot of
us don't take the time for a thirty second hug
and definitely not a six second kiss. And yeah, unfortunately,
little pecks aren't aren't going to get that oxytocin flow.
Speaker 1 (17:54):
In, and they in studies are shown it's even better
in the back of a Honda Civic listening to air supply.
Oh yes, at least that's what worked in the eighties
and nineties.
Speaker 2 (18:04):
By the way, we will get into I have questions
about when to reveal your sexual pass but well we'll
get to that later.
Speaker 1 (18:10):
Also, no, but my thought immediately went to you're right.
Oftentimes it is that, oh, this is going to lead
to this. Am I up for it? Do I have
the energy for this and maybe making these moments away
from your house, you're about to walk into dinner on
a date night, you're getting into the car, you're whatever,
(18:32):
stop and have that intimate moment somewhere where it's pretty
much impossible to have sex. So it's just it's never
about that that it's just about that intimate moment you're sharing.
Speaker 5 (18:42):
Yeah, that can be a great twist to put on
it if you're worried about like, well, I don't know,
I am going to feel this pressure to lead to
like do it in the moments when you can't, And
that can also be a great tease too, like get
a little something going when you're like, oh, we can't
go any further than this.
Speaker 6 (18:55):
Yeah, someone in our audience DMed us and said that
they do this every time in an elevator alone, they
make out, And we were like, that is such a
good idea because yeah, it's like you can't do anything
about it and it's just a fun little thing that
you do.
Speaker 3 (19:10):
I like that.
Speaker 2 (19:22):
Getting back to dating Vanessa, one thing that I saw
on your Instagram was when you were describing your job,
and this kind of speaks to what we're talking about
of like getting out of a rut and you know,
feeling like you're dating again, feeling that excitement. You said,
I loved this that part of your job is to
get people to fall in love again. And I wanted
to ask you your patients that you're seeing or your audience,
(19:46):
why do you think they are falling out of love
and what do you do to help get people to
fall back in love.
Speaker 5 (19:52):
I think it's very similar to what we were talking
about with sex, is you know, in TV and movies,
the beginning of a relationship is always run mant size,
So like the falling in love that oh, there's some
sort of roadblock that's in the way that they have
to overcome, and it's like we really emphasize that beginning
state of a relationship. But then when you think about
how long term relationships are portrayed on TV in the movies,
(20:15):
it's always like a bore, like oh god, my wife's
son gnawing.
Speaker 1 (20:18):
Oh.
Speaker 5 (20:20):
It's like we don't have any good role models of
keeping that that passion and that spark alive for each other.
So in the exact same ways with sex, like we
really let the gas off and just think like, Okay,
I got my partner, I won them over. We overcame
the obstacle, and now I just kind of coast. So
most of us don't do anything to actively improve our
(20:42):
relationship or nurture our relationship. Like a lot of times
people will ask me, you know, what what happened to
the spark? I'm like, well, did you stop throwing logs
on the fire? If you stop doing that, of course
the fires are going to burn out. So obviously this
is a huge conversation. But I'll give you one super
practical thing that people can do. There's some really fascinating
research that has shown that gratitude is actually the number
(21:06):
one predictor of marital success. And gratitude is so interesting
because it's free, it's easy, and it's very fast. So
just doing something very simple, like telling your partner how
much you appreciate, you know, all those little things that
you see them doing. Hey, I saw that you unloaded
the dishwasher, Thank you for doing that. Oh, I saw
that you got me my favorite cookie at the grocery store,
(21:29):
Thank you so much for that. Like, those little moments
go such a long way in helping you feel seen,
appreciated and loved.
Speaker 6 (21:37):
And then I'm that kind of pulls you out of
that that dynamic or that idea that it's so easy
to fall into over the years of like, oh, our
marriage or a partnership is just this transactional relationship. Like
you do these chores. I do those chores. You know
you make this money, I make this money. This is
how you know the arrangement works. And it's easy to
fall into that and kind of forget like, hey, we're
(21:58):
both here voluntarily want to be here because we love
each other, because we care about each other, and just
being able to hear those little moments of gratitude is
a great way to pull us out of that kind
of transactional way of thinking and into just more of
the emotional.
Speaker 1 (22:12):
And I know kids will play a huge part of that.
I'm sure you work with people with kids. I know
you guys don't have kids. Lauren and I were now
empty nesters. Our kids are up at college, so we
have a little bit of both, Like we just spent
a month and a half with them and they were
very much in our lives, but now they're back at
school and we get to run around naked all the
time now, and so it is that's so you mean when.
Speaker 2 (22:32):
You said throwing logs on the fire, right, Vanessa just
walking around naked naked?
Speaker 1 (22:36):
But I'm sure you work with a lot of families
people that are dealing with children, which exponentially changes things.
It makes things a lot more difficult to keep that
spark alive. So what is your advice to those that
are dealing with kids when you have a three year
old hanging on your hip?
Speaker 2 (22:52):
And yeah, I will go ahead, And these were going
to be in our questions from the audience episode, but
now is a good time.
Speaker 4 (22:57):
I had two questions.
Speaker 2 (22:59):
One is it normal to have less sex in a
marriage after you have kids? And two how do you
make your way back to each other sexually after becoming parents?
Those are from two different listeners of ours.
Speaker 5 (23:11):
It is incredibly normal for your sex life to decrease
after having kids. So most couples won't have sex again
until like six to twelve months after having a kid,
and the frequency will be much lower than it was beforehand.
And that's really because kids change everything in your life. Right, Like,
you're exhausted, You're feeling all this anxiety, especially if you're
(23:35):
a first time parent, about like am I doing this right?
It feels like the dynamic is totally shifted between the
two of you, because now there are three of you
instead of just you and your partnership. Financial stress, like
everything changes, so of course our sex lives are going
to change as well. So I think just normalizing it
is the most important place to start, because so many
(23:56):
parents go into it with this expectation of, oh, we
have the and then we get cleared at the six
week mark, and things are supposed to go back to normal, right,
And that just does not happen for the vast majority
of parents. So one of the tips that I would
give for parents for finding each other again might sound
a little counterintuitive, but I think it's actually really important
(24:17):
for parents to make a little bit of space for
each other to be individual people. And this is especially
important for women who just have a different burden on
them with a brand new child. They're literally relying on
your body for survival. You've just grown them inside of
your body for months and months and months, and so
a lot of women just feel like they lose their
(24:39):
sense of self and it's so hard to show up
as a romantic partner when you're feeling like you're drowning
just trying to show up as a mother, So being
able to support each other and having a little bit
of alone time. And even if that alone time is
like I need sixty seconds to go into the closet
and close the door and be in the dark, and
(24:59):
just that's great, But just a little bit of time
for each other to have some separate space can be
so beneficial and like helping you feel like you come
back into your own skins so then you can reconnect
a little bit with your partner.
Speaker 4 (25:15):
I love that.
Speaker 2 (25:15):
It sounds like a lot I mean, correct me if
I'm summarizing this wrong, Vanessa, But a lot of the
advice I'm hearing from you is going back to like,
like love each other for who you are, be grateful
for each other, and kind of keep dating. Like when
you said throw logs on the fire that's going to
stick with me? Is that are you saying keep dating
that person? Is that a huge part of what you
(25:36):
tell people?
Speaker 5 (25:38):
Absolutely? Yeah. I mean people are always asking like, what
you know did why was it so much easier in
the beginning of the relationship, And I'm like, it wasn't.
You were just putting so much more effort in in
the beginning.
Speaker 1 (25:48):
It was a priority because we wanted to make something happen.
Speaker 4 (25:51):
We wanted to make the person like us.
Speaker 1 (25:53):
But you can't. You just can't treat a relationship like
it was a building, like oh, look I built it,
and then you can walk away thinking that that buildings
to be there tomorrow. It's like, you got to keep
that same energy, the same concept of hitting on that person,
flirting with that person, dating that person.
Speaker 5 (26:07):
Yeah, if you want that new relationship energy to sustain
throughout the relationship, you have to keep showing up in
the same sort of way you did at the beginning
of the relationship.
Speaker 2 (26:16):
Well, I love all this so much. Now, one thing
we do a lot is we go through celebrity headlines.
So we have some celebrity news headlines for you too
that have spurred some sex conversations. I'm gonna call them
sex celebrity headlines. This week, we're going to start off
with one that went everywhere. I don't know if you
all have heard of them, but Larsa Pippen, current Real housewife,
(26:37):
former wife of Scottie Pippen, is dating Marcus Jordan, son
of Michael Jordan. We could probably get into a lot
of sex therapy about the fact that she's dating her
ex husband's dear friend's son. But anyway, they said that
they have sex five times a night, a night.
Speaker 1 (26:55):
And not a week.
Speaker 2 (26:57):
I actually separately got this question from some people dming me, So,
how much is too much? How often is normal? How
much should couples be having sex every week? What's healthy?
Speaker 5 (27:08):
This is the big question that we always get asked,
what is that magic number? And I know so many
people saw that interview and just thought, like, exactly what
you were saying, Chris, like five times a day? Like
most people like, I don't know if we even do
it five times a month.
Speaker 1 (27:22):
Kind of somebody's walking away with a limp like that.
Speaker 4 (27:25):
Doesn't sound physically enjoyable. Day, no pain.
Speaker 1 (27:30):
Numbers numbers four and five, You're not. You're just you're
trying to survive. It's you know, at numbers four and
five of sex in the same night that is the
last four miles of a marathon. You're just trying not
to wet yourself, Your toenails are falling off. You just
like let this be over.
Speaker 5 (27:48):
So as a sex therapist, I will tell you that truly,
there is no one magic number that's going to work
for every single couple. But honestly, I think that we
have the wrong question. So many people are so fixated
on how much sex should we be having, But in reality,
the quality of the sex that we're having is so
(28:08):
much more important than the quantity. So if you're having
sex that feels kind of boring its routine, you do
the same things over and over again, it's very predictable, Like,
there's no point in forcing yourselves to try to do
that five times a day. It's not going to be
an enjoyable experience. And the more that we really like
push ourselves to focus on the quality and the quantity, like,
(28:33):
the more we might actually notice our sex drive decrease
because we're not having an enjoyable experience.
Speaker 1 (28:38):
Yeah.
Speaker 6 (28:38):
I actually thought of a really great comparison, Chris. It's like,
for golf, would you rather play five really bad games
of golf a week or like one really awesome one
where you come away feeling great about yourself? Like, if
you do those five and it's like a struggle, you're
throwing your clubs, Like, how are you going to find
the motivation to do another five than that?
Speaker 1 (28:59):
You're just going through the motion.
Speaker 2 (29:00):
So I'm also wondering when they're working eating. That's so
much time during the day, five times a day, how
much it's so much time.
Speaker 1 (29:07):
A lot of medical stuff comes into play. You've got
to get your fluids, you've got to get your electrolytes in.
You need some protein if you're going to survive that.
But so I like your idea of quality over quantity.
Don't worry about the number, worry about the quality. So
what does that mean? What can we do to make
the quality better when we are intimate?
Speaker 5 (29:27):
So, the biggest thing that comes up in male female
relationships is the orgasm gap. So research has found that
men are having way more orgasms than women are having.
And when we talk to male female relationships, is almost
always the woman who's saying, like, my sex drive feels
pretty low. I don't really want it, feels like my
partner wants it all the time. What's wrong with me?
(29:50):
As women, we have the tendency to blame ourselves. I
feel like we're the ones who are the problem. And
so we'll ask her like, okay, well describe the sex
that you are having to us, and she'll describe it
as like, well, it's all about him, it's on his timeline.
As soon as he's done, We're done. There's not really
anything in it for me. So our biggest piece of
advice is to make sure that her pleasure is prioritized
(30:12):
as much as his pleasure is, and practically, like sometimes
that might even be her having an orgasm or her
being the focus first before you move on to him.
So going back to you know, the we were talking
about four play earlier, we actually hate the word foreplay.
It's on the first page of our guide, like we
know you just s popped this guy. This says ultimate
foreplay guides, But we actually don't like this word because
(30:34):
it implies that these things are like lesser than like
intercourse is the main thing, and four plays just like
that's just the stuff you do for thirty seconds on
the way to intercourse. But the reality is for women,
you are much more likely to make her orgasm with
your hands or your mouth than you are with intercourse.
In reality, only ten to fifteen percent of women can
(30:54):
orgasm from intercourse. So focusing more on the hands and
the mouth is going to go a very long way
from both of you.
Speaker 6 (31:01):
And the.
Speaker 1 (31:03):
Talking. As you said, you know, in general, this is
a taboo subject. But what I find also interesting is
how reluctant. We are just to have a conversation with
our significant other of Babe, what can I do to
make you orgasm? What can I do to help you?
Speaker 2 (31:22):
I think people are really worried about hurting each other's feelings,
which is a good thing, but that's what I think.
Speaker 6 (31:28):
Oh yeah, we got so worried about hurting the other's
feelings by Oh if I say this, they're going to
think I'm implying that, or they're going to think that
I mean something totally different. Or we get this idea
in our heads that okay, because we have been doing
it this way for the last X number of years,
or because this was the way these are like the
three positions that we did the first you know, a
(31:50):
couple times we had sex, that somehow we've made this
blood oath that this is the way that we do it.
So many people come to us with this of oh, well,
I couldn't possibly do another position because these are the
ones that we've always done, or well, I couldn't possibly
do this because one time, you know, she said like,
don't go down on me, and so therefore she never
(32:11):
wants me to do it. And it's like, you know,
the only way to really understand what we actually want
is to keep talking about this stuff. I mean, our
preferences change sometimes early on relationships. We say things because
we think we're you know, trying to help our partner
out or throw them a bone, and then you know,
you don't want them to take that one thing you
said and be like, okay, cool, now I never do
(32:32):
this or I always do that. So yeah, like you're saying, Chris,
the talking about it is so important.
Speaker 1 (32:38):
And people really should. I mean, look, women are very mysterious.
They're impossible to figure out. So guys when they give
you an actual statement of this is the roadmap. I mean, God,
bless you, thank you. Now I got it, and then they're.
Speaker 5 (32:55):
Practical tip here. So most men like really do want
to please partners, but one of the big mistakes that
they make is asking what can I do for you?
Or what do you want me to do? And the
problem with that question is it's too broad. You don't
know how to answer it, like and then that's where
we get into this place. Well, I don't want to
hurt his feelings, and what do I say? And for
(33:16):
a lot of us women, it's like, well, I don't
even know what I need, So what am I supposed
to do? So instead, what we recommend is give her
two options to choose from. We call this the eye
exam games. You know, when you get your eyesight checked,
they show you like, okay, look at this slide. Is
this one more clear or is this one more clear? Like,
when you have two options to choose from, it makes
(33:37):
the decision just feel so much easier and more straightforward.
So you could do this, you know, you could do
it for broad things like do you like it better
when I use my hands on you or when I
use my mouth on you? And then you could even
get really specific in the moment, like let's say you're
using your hands, try two slightly different techniques with your hands,
and ask do you like this one better or this
(33:58):
one better? So it gives her options to choose from,
and it also shows that you genuinely do care about
her pleasure because you're willing to come up with the
options for her rather than just making her come up
with everything.
Speaker 1 (34:11):
So is my takeaway here. These are conversations and things
that are best kind of in the heat of the moment,
as opposed to we're having dinner, babe, what do you
think about this when I do that.
Speaker 5 (34:23):
We're at Applebee's and we're like, that is a great question,
you know. So we actually wrote a book called Sex Talks,
The Five Conversations that Will Transform Your Love Life, Because
talking about sex it's another one of those things that
like we all sort of know that we should be
doing it, but we don't know how to do it.
And so again we wanted to make it like really
clear and break it down step by step. So the
(34:44):
first conversation that we start with in the book is
what we call the acknowledgment conversation, which is simply getting
comfortable with the idea of talking about sex. So, if
you and your partner have never talked about sex before,
we actually don't want you to jump right into like
what can I do better? How do I improve? What
do you want?
Speaker 6 (35:02):
Yeah? Or like in the moment, like that's going to
feel like it's supernting.
Speaker 5 (35:06):
Yeah, it's going to feel too intimidating for both of you,
and you're more likely to have a conversation that goes
off the rails. So instead, we want you to start
outside of the bedroom, and we want you to talk
about sex in a positive way or even in a
neutral way. So all you're trying to do is get
comfortable with it as a topic of conversation. So one
of the best, like practical conversation openers would be to
(35:27):
ask your partner, what are some of your favorite sexual
memories with me? So that gets a two of you
like reminiscing about great experiences you had together, and it
also starts to highlight some good information like, oh, maybe
all in all of our favorite sexual experiences, it was
we were doing like a lot of positions, or we
(35:48):
had her go first, or there was a certain way
it got initiated. But it's just getting the two of
you comfortable talking about the topic openly.
Speaker 6 (35:56):
Yeah, and then when it comes to the more specific
stuff like Vanessa was mentioning before, oh, do you like
this technique or that technique? I think in general it's
best to start initiating those conversations outside of the bedroom
in a more neutral setting, because if you're not used
to talking about sex while you're having sex or right afterwards,
it can bring up a little bit of anxiety. And
(36:17):
so I think it's good to start talking about, Hey,
it would be fun to try a couple of things
I want to you know, I want to support you
in having a better experience, So would you be open
to in the moment us, you know, me giving you
a couple of options, see what you like, and then
talking about you know, how each one is or what
you think.
Speaker 4 (36:38):
Wow, I think that's such a good note to end on.
Speaker 2 (36:40):
I don't even want to waste more time on these
celebrity headlines because we have real questions from our audience
to get to. So we're going to go for that
in the next episode. Vanessa and Xander Marin. Their book
is called Sex Talks The Five Conversations that Will Change
Your Love Life. Their podcast is Pillow Talks and you
can find them on social media. And we're going to
be back with questions from you.
Speaker 1 (37:01):
Thanks for listening. Follow us on Instagram at the most
dramatic pod ever and make sure to write us a
review and leave us five stars. I'll talk to you
next time.
This is the most dramatic podcast ever and iHeartRadio podcast.
Chris Harrison and Lauren Zema coming to you from the
home office in a very chilly Austin, Texas. I hope
everybody kind of survived that big winter push that came
across the country. And if you are still very cold,
(00:22):
I think we're gonna heat things up today.
Speaker 2 (00:24):
You know what's great about this topic is we've actually
been talking about this episode and also with the cold here,
and there are a lot of sex puns that have
come out of our conversation, Like our pipes froze then
we were like, oh, the water's dripping now, oh wait,
we needed to get more wet, so the pipe's there's
a lot.
Speaker 3 (00:43):
Okay, so we're about to get dirty on today's show. Well,
I mean, but yes, we're talking about sex. We're talking
about sex, hopefully in a very helpful way today with
Vanessa and Xander Morin.
Speaker 1 (00:54):
They are married. Vanessa is a sex therapist, licensed psycho therapist,
twenty years of experience in the sex therapy field. Xander's
just a regular dude who's been married to a sex
therapist for over a decade. They do not have kids.
A conscious choice. She and Xander do a lot of
(01:15):
social media work together, which I find very interesting. It's
very effective. I love the social media of the doctors
and therapists that we have had on. I think they're
using it in the right way of how to reach
the everyday person and make these digestible notes totally.
Speaker 2 (01:32):
And actually I think they wrote their book together. They
are New York Times best selling authors of the book
Sex Talks, Sex Talks, Sex Talks, which is all about
these five conversations you can start to really help your
love life. So they wrote that book together. They do
their Instagram and social media together. And yeah, I think
(01:53):
she is, as you said, licensed family therapists, marriage therapist,
sex therapist, but they see to be coworkers just like
we are. So I think this we're gonna have some
fun today. We're gonna ask them some questions. We have
questions that we have based off some celebrity sex headlines
that have been in the news lately. And also I
went to Instagram and we got questions from you all.
(02:16):
So we are gonna, I think, put this into two
episodes and get through all things to talk about sex baby.
Speaker 1 (02:23):
And if you want to check them out, you can
go to their Instagram Vanessa and Xander with an ex
Xander and check out their stuff. But we're going to
dive into it and we are so glad to have
them on the show today.
Speaker 2 (02:36):
All right, we are joined now by Vanessa and Xander Marin.
Oh my gosh, you guys, we have so many questions
to ask you.
Speaker 4 (02:44):
By the way, some I asked.
Speaker 2 (02:46):
Our audience for questions and got some words in my
DMS that have never been in my dms before, So
it's gonna be good.
Speaker 4 (02:54):
First though, we wanted.
Speaker 2 (02:55):
To ask you, Vanessa, just to kind of clarify for
everybody in the layman's tern, what does a sex therapist do.
Speaker 5 (03:05):
A sex therapist helps you have a healthy and happy
sex life, quite simply.
Speaker 6 (03:11):
So.
Speaker 5 (03:11):
I actually started my career in the traditional psychotherapy setting,
working with people like one on one or two on one,
but when Xander joined my business, we actually made this
shift into working more in the online space. So we
create online guides, courses, challenges, things like for play guides,
sex Challenges, Next Level Intercourse, but all with that same
(03:32):
goal of helping couples have incredible sex plofes.
Speaker 1 (03:36):
This might sound weird, but which came first the chicken
of the egg here, Xander, did you guys get married
and start hooking up first and be intimate and then
you started working together? How did that work?
Speaker 6 (03:51):
Well? I was definitely not one of Vanessa's clients. We
actually we actually met far before Vanessa was a psychotherapist.
We met before she went to grad school, and so
we got together about sixteen years ago at this point,
and you know, a couple of years into our relationship,
Vanessa went to graduate school, became a psychotherapist, and then
(04:14):
started practicing. So it's been in the last six years
or so that I've been involved with her. Before before that,
she built this whole business on her own.
Speaker 5 (04:22):
But I thought it would be kind of cool to
have this husband and wife duo and to be able
to talk about things, you know, as a real life
couple ourselves with our community. We really share honestly about like, yeah,
we've been together sixteen years. We know what it's like
to have ups and downs and times that feel less
exciting and than others, and so it's been really cod
the Lorner and I.
Speaker 1 (04:41):
Were talking, I think it makes a lot more relatable
to know there is a couple behind all of this,
because like you said there is checks and balances, right,
you get the female perspective, but then you like, I
kind of want to know what the dude thinks because
it's not just one sided here. So I think it
does make it a lot more relatable.
Speaker 2 (04:57):
Yeah, and we were excited to talk to you guys too,
because like, we work together, you know, we live together,
we work together, we do everything together. So look, am
I trying to get a little free therapy out of this?
Speaker 4 (05:07):
Maybe? But it it is.
Speaker 5 (05:11):
It always turns into a good episode when the host
is willing to get vulnerable themselves. I'll say it always
turns into a good episode.
Speaker 1 (05:17):
But I liked your social media post when it was
you know the common things that are said. It's like, well, okay,
so I have a friend that.
Speaker 4 (05:26):
Right, it's not my friend as this question.
Speaker 1 (05:28):
And being you know, the host of The Bachelor of
so many years, people would come to me often with
their love stories and their sex stories. I mean I
vividly remember sitting at an airport bar just having a
cocktail and a lunch and someone started just telling me
all about their sex life. And I'm sure it's the
same to you. Sometimes you just want to go to
a Christmas party. You really don't want to hear about
(05:49):
everybody's intimate details, or.
Speaker 4 (05:51):
Do you, Vanessa?
Speaker 5 (05:53):
I do?
Speaker 3 (05:55):
I do.
Speaker 6 (05:57):
Passion.
Speaker 5 (05:57):
I was like, pull up a chair, yeah, tell me
more about it.
Speaker 1 (06:00):
This's get weird. Tell me how.
Speaker 5 (06:02):
About the topic. I think it's so interesting. So I'm
happy to be cornered in the you know, over in
the corner and the party.
Speaker 1 (06:10):
And before we dive in. I mean, I'm curious because
I find it interesting too. Any I think anything that
is quote unquote taboo or some people love to talk
about it, some people don't want to talk about it.
Religion goes in and out of it all. What do
you find so fascinating about it that you have made
it your life's work.
Speaker 5 (06:27):
What I find most fascinating is how ashamed and embarrassed
we all are about this act that we all do.
You know, to me, sex is one of the most natural,
normal human things that we do, and also has the
capacity to be one of the most joyful and exciting
and pleasurable experiences, and yet we all feel so ashamed
(06:47):
and embarrassed and alone. I mean, I think the most
common question that we get asked is is this normal?
And we've gotten asked that question about some of the
most normal things you can imagine, Like, yeah, we'll say,
is it normal that I really like making out with
my husband? Is it normal that I have this certain
way that I want sex to be initiated. It's like, yeah,
(07:08):
that's totally fine. So I really like to help people
bridge that gap and recognize like we're all normal. It's
all okay, I love that.
Speaker 2 (07:17):
Well, then you know, what's the number one thing you
find yourself having to clear up with people the most often.
Speaker 5 (07:25):
There's so many, but a very common one is just
the general idea of sex requiring any sort of effort.
So we all see it play out in movies and
on TV. You know, we see characters just have this immediate,
incredible chemistry. Sex is always like, you know, they make
eye contact at each other and then like ten seconds later,
(07:45):
it's on and they're dashing off into the bedroom, ripping
clothes off, and then you see like the ten second
montage and everybody's happy and satisfied and you know, falling
back into the pillow after that. And so we all
grow up seeing the scene replayed over and over again,
and it gives us this idea that great sex is
just supposed to happen if you found the right person,
(08:06):
if you're really with your match, it should be easy, effortless, spontaneous.
Speaker 6 (08:11):
You never have to talk about it.
Speaker 5 (08:13):
You never have to talk about it, never have to
put any sort of work into.
Speaker 6 (08:15):
You, definitely never need to go to therapy for it.
Speaker 5 (08:18):
And so yeah, one of the that's one of the
big misconceptions that we really clear up for people. We
actually tell people like, let's view sex like a hobby.
So what's one of your hobbies for the two of you?
Speaker 1 (08:30):
Love to play golf. She loves Harry Potter.
Speaker 5 (08:36):
Okay, mus golf because it's a little bit easier, Like, okay,
so you love golf, what are some of the things
that you do to get even better at golf?
Speaker 1 (08:45):
Of course, you go to the golf range, you take lessons,
you pour money and time and effort into it. You
don't just show up and you haven't done it for
a year and you're gonna be good. You got to
work at.
Speaker 5 (08:55):
It, exactly, And do you ever judge yourself for that?
Speaker 6 (08:57):
Is it?
Speaker 5 (08:58):
Like, oh wow, how embarrassed saying that I want to
be a better golfer? Like this is so strange that
I have to practice.
Speaker 1 (09:05):
You know what's funny for Essa actually what I say
and Xander, I don't know if you play golf, but
there are people you play golf with and they really
really really suck. And when they suck at it, they
get so mad they'll throw clubs, they'll cuss and all this.
And my thing is, what have you ever done to
get better? Like why would you expect to show up
Thursday and just be Tiger Woods? You can't. And I
(09:29):
would assume the same thing goes for Friday night in
the bedroom. You can't just show up if you haven't
put any time and effort into.
Speaker 5 (09:34):
It, exactly. And I like framing it as a hobby
because I think that makes it feel so much lighter.
Like if we think about like, okay, I need to
get better at sex, that feels a little scary, right,
like what do I do? How do I get better?
It's embarrassing to admit that I'm not. But if we
think about it as a hobby, it just makes the
energy feel so much lighter. And we all have those
examples of like, yeah, no, I love playing golf, so
(09:57):
it makes sense that I'm going to invest in it.
It's a sign of respect of how much I love
golf that I'm willing to play so many rounds and
invest in equipment and take lessons in all the things.
So if we can have that same sort of vibe
towards our sex life, I think it can help all
of us immensely.
Speaker 4 (10:13):
I love that.
Speaker 2 (10:14):
One thing I've actually said to friends before is, well, you, guys,
the first time you have sex with someone is never
the best time you had sex with that person.
Speaker 1 (10:24):
Yeah.
Speaker 4 (10:24):
I mean, I can't speak for a one night stand.
You know that we were one and done or something.
Speaker 2 (10:28):
But if you're in a relationship, nobody's ever like the
first time was the best.
Speaker 4 (10:31):
And it's been all downhill since then. That doesn't happen.
Practice makes perfect.
Speaker 5 (10:36):
Yeah.
Speaker 6 (10:36):
We actually we call that exact concept the first pancake rule.
It's kind of like when you're making pancakes, the first
one or the first batch always comes out a little
weird and you're like, oh God, like did I do
the batter wrong? And then you keep going and it
gets better and better and then they look totally normal.
And the exact same thing is true for sex, whether
it's your first time with a new partner or your
first time back after a bit of a dry spell
(10:59):
or something. Yeah, trying something brand new that that same
rule applies. It's always it's going to be a little awkward.
Things might not go exactly the way you want them to.
And you know, you could either judge yourself and feel
really ashamed like you've done something wrong, like oh god,
that one horribly, I can never do it again, or
you can laugh and be like, oh yeah, you know,
the first time you try anything, it's pretty much never perfect.
(11:23):
So you know, why don't we get back in the
sack and keep working on it?
Speaker 1 (11:38):
So how is this applicable to the listener who want
to get better? Like like golf, like pickleball, whatever your
your passion is, whatever your hobby is. Okay, let's treat
sex like this.
Speaker 2 (11:50):
You guys mentioned sex challenges. Is that part of practicing
is that something?
Speaker 1 (11:55):
Yeah, what are things? Give us some tangible things that
we can all do that will get us right, get
us better.
Speaker 5 (12:01):
We love breaking this down for people because like, where
did we ever get the chance to learn how to
be better at sex? Like it's not like you can
you know, we don't have the same thing we have
with golf coaches and stuff like that. It's not quite
as accessible, and so that's what our business is all about,
is really breaking it down for people like step by
step here specific techniques to use, do this and then
(12:21):
this and then that. So like our Ultimate four Play
guides are the perfect example of that. It's not generic
advice like oh just experiment, just like try some new things.
We're really walking through like specific techniques to try and
how to communicate with your partner about that. And the
challenges are really really fun too, giving you new things
to try out with.
Speaker 2 (12:41):
Yeah.
Speaker 6 (12:41):
Yeah. With our Sex Challenge, what we do is, you know,
we for we have thirty different days of like two
prompts each day of different activities you can try, like
a more sensual type of activity and then a more
sexual type of activity. But what we try to do
is throughout all that give all kinds of different things
to do that are not just intercourse because so many
(13:02):
people think, oh yeah, well, okay, sex equals intercourse and
it's just all about doing the intercourse right and you know,
being perfect at that, but there's so many other things
to do. It's like once you actually start to feel
confident that oh yeah, there's like all these different tools
in my tool belt. There's all these different activities that
we can do, and I know that, you know, I
can give my partner a really great experience. It takes
(13:25):
the pressure off the intercourse and lets you realize like,
oh yeah, there's so many items on the menu, so
many fun things to try.
Speaker 4 (13:32):
God, you're so right.
Speaker 2 (13:33):
I'm sitting here thinking about like, because just like you said,
we all see these scenes in movies and all that.
I do think we've all been sort of trained to
think that orgasm that like, the sex is the that's
what we're all going for. That's the big thing, and
everything else is just a step to get there. Like,
I mean, I'm kind I'm going back to the bachelor, babe.
But you know, maybe it's about the journey.
Speaker 1 (13:54):
It is about the journey. It's not a James Bond
movie where you barely meet the person then the next
thing you know, he's in the show.
Speaker 4 (14:00):
Next tidy.
Speaker 1 (14:01):
Yeah, saving the world.
Speaker 4 (14:02):
Well, you two went viral.
Speaker 2 (14:04):
You made a lot of headlines because you announced that
you were doing this. I don't know if you would
call it one of your challenges, but you were making
out every night, and you wanted to just make out
with each other every night, and the goal was not sex.
It was just we're gonna spend some time making out
like teenagers every night. So are you still doing that?
And what benefits have you seen?
Speaker 5 (14:23):
We are still doing it. Yeah, So for anybody who
hasn't seen that video, the original idea behind that was
I realized one day that Xander and I really did
not make out very much anymore. Like when we first
started dating, we made out for hours and hours and
it was just one of the most fun things imaginable,
like that chemistry was so intense. But like Xander said,
(14:45):
we've been together for sixteen years. You guys have maybe
experienced this yourself, like as you get into a long
term relationship, we just don't really make out very much anymore.
And so two things were coming up for me. One
was like I miss that, Like there's something so sweet
and innocent about making out. It just it brings you
back to those teenage years where it felt so exciting.
(15:06):
And the second thing was that I was noticing that
we would only make out during or write in the
lead up to sex. So I was starting to get
a little bit on guard when Xander would initiate a
makeout with me because my brain was going to, oh,
he's wanting to have sex right now, and so that
would put me into this like, oh, well, do I
want to have sex right now or not?
Speaker 6 (15:25):
And we both kind of realized that that was happening
for both of us because you know, after those early
you know, kind of honeymoon months or year or whatever
at the beginning of our relationship, I think so often
like life catches up with you and all of a sudden,
sex which seems so easy and happening so naturally without
much planning, all of a sudden, it's like you got
(15:45):
a full load of work and life and social stuff,
and like sex is not always the first thing on
your mind. And so I know for me too, I
would find myself thinking like, oh she's she's kissing me up.
There's a little bit of tongue like, oh am, I
do I want to have sex right now? I have
time to have sex. And it was like, and we
both kind of were talking about it. It was like, oh, wow,
we're both thinking the same thing, and it's like, how
(16:07):
sad is it that we're shutting down these moments of connection,
these moments where we each you know, can just feel
happy and good about each other because we're worried about
what might or might not happen next.
Speaker 5 (16:21):
So we started making out. I said, let's do it
every single night before bed, and we have the explicit
rule like it is not going to lead to sex
at the beginning, And so we have been doing that
for years now and it's just become this really sweet routine,
this ritual that we have together that we know, like
at the end of the night, we're always going to
have this little makeout session. Sometimes it's like ten seconds
(16:44):
if we're really tired and just wanting to go to bed.
Other nights it's a couple of minutes. But it's just
been so sweet to be able to have that moment
of connection with each other, and it's really brought down
the barriers to making out and feeling like this pressure
that it has to lead to more.
Speaker 2 (17:00):
Is there something physiological there, because I think when we
have a deep kiss, I feel emotionally connected, like is
there something happening with hormones or don't I mean, what's
going on there?
Speaker 5 (17:13):
Yeah. Research has shown that a six second kiss, when
you have that, your body starts to release oxytocin, which
is otherwise known as the cuddle hormone. It's the hormone
that promotes bonding, a sense of trust, and relaxation. So
there really is something physiological that's happening as long as
you're doing it for at least six seconds.
Speaker 6 (17:31):
Yeah, and the same is true, I think for a
thirty second hug. So it's like a six second kiss,
thirty second hug. That's basically the time that we need
in order to really kind of settle in and get
those hormones releasing. But the reality is a lot of
us don't take the time for a thirty second hug
and definitely not a six second kiss. And yeah, unfortunately,
little pecks aren't aren't going to get that oxytocin flow.
Speaker 1 (17:54):
In, and they in studies are shown it's even better
in the back of a Honda Civic listening to air supply.
Oh yes, at least that's what worked in the eighties
and nineties.
Speaker 2 (18:04):
By the way, we will get into I have questions
about when to reveal your sexual pass but well we'll
get to that later.
Speaker 1 (18:10):
Also, no, but my thought immediately went to you're right.
Oftentimes it is that, oh, this is going to lead
to this. Am I up for it? Do I have
the energy for this and maybe making these moments away
from your house, you're about to walk into dinner on
a date night, you're getting into the car, you're whatever,
(18:32):
stop and have that intimate moment somewhere where it's pretty
much impossible to have sex. So it's just it's never
about that that it's just about that intimate moment you're sharing.
Speaker 5 (18:42):
Yeah, that can be a great twist to put on
it if you're worried about like, well, I don't know,
I am going to feel this pressure to lead to
like do it in the moments when you can't, And
that can also be a great tease too, like get
a little something going when you're like, oh, we can't
go any further than this.
Speaker 6 (18:55):
Yeah, someone in our audience DMed us and said that
they do this every time in an elevator alone, they
make out, And we were like, that is such a
good idea because yeah, it's like you can't do anything
about it and it's just a fun little thing that
you do.
Speaker 3 (19:10):
I like that.
Speaker 2 (19:22):
Getting back to dating Vanessa, one thing that I saw
on your Instagram was when you were describing your job,
and this kind of speaks to what we're talking about
of like getting out of a rut and you know,
feeling like you're dating again, feeling that excitement. You said,
I loved this that part of your job is to
get people to fall in love again. And I wanted
to ask you your patients that you're seeing or your audience,
(19:46):
why do you think they are falling out of love
and what do you do to help get people to
fall back in love.
Speaker 5 (19:52):
I think it's very similar to what we were talking
about with sex, is you know, in TV and movies,
the beginning of a relationship is always run mant size,
So like the falling in love that oh, there's some
sort of roadblock that's in the way that they have
to overcome, and it's like we really emphasize that beginning
state of a relationship. But then when you think about
how long term relationships are portrayed on TV in the movies,
(20:15):
it's always like a bore, like oh god, my wife's
son gnawing.
Speaker 1 (20:18):
Oh.
Speaker 5 (20:20):
It's like we don't have any good role models of
keeping that that passion and that spark alive for each other.
So in the exact same ways with sex, like we
really let the gas off and just think like, Okay,
I got my partner, I won them over. We overcame
the obstacle, and now I just kind of coast. So
most of us don't do anything to actively improve our
(20:42):
relationship or nurture our relationship. Like a lot of times
people will ask me, you know, what what happened to
the spark? I'm like, well, did you stop throwing logs
on the fire? If you stop doing that, of course
the fires are going to burn out. So obviously this
is a huge conversation. But I'll give you one super
practical thing that people can do. There's some really fascinating
research that has shown that gratitude is actually the number
(21:06):
one predictor of marital success. And gratitude is so interesting
because it's free, it's easy, and it's very fast. So
just doing something very simple, like telling your partner how
much you appreciate, you know, all those little things that
you see them doing. Hey, I saw that you unloaded
the dishwasher, Thank you for doing that. Oh, I saw
that you got me my favorite cookie at the grocery store,
(21:29):
Thank you so much for that. Like, those little moments
go such a long way in helping you feel seen,
appreciated and loved.
Speaker 6 (21:37):
And then I'm that kind of pulls you out of
that that dynamic or that idea that it's so easy
to fall into over the years of like, oh, our
marriage or a partnership is just this transactional relationship. Like
you do these chores. I do those chores. You know
you make this money, I make this money. This is
how you know the arrangement works. And it's easy to
fall into that and kind of forget like, hey, we're
(21:58):
both here voluntarily want to be here because we love
each other, because we care about each other, and just
being able to hear those little moments of gratitude is
a great way to pull us out of that kind
of transactional way of thinking and into just more of
the emotional.
Speaker 1 (22:12):
And I know kids will play a huge part of that.
I'm sure you work with people with kids. I know
you guys don't have kids. Lauren and I were now
empty nesters. Our kids are up at college, so we
have a little bit of both, Like we just spent
a month and a half with them and they were
very much in our lives, but now they're back at
school and we get to run around naked all the
time now, and so it is that's so you mean when.
Speaker 2 (22:32):
You said throwing logs on the fire, right, Vanessa just
walking around naked naked?
Speaker 1 (22:36):
But I'm sure you work with a lot of families
people that are dealing with children, which exponentially changes things.
It makes things a lot more difficult to keep that
spark alive. So what is your advice to those that
are dealing with kids when you have a three year
old hanging on your hip?
Speaker 2 (22:52):
And yeah, I will go ahead, And these were going
to be in our questions from the audience episode, but
now is a good time.
Speaker 4 (22:57):
I had two questions.
Speaker 2 (22:59):
One is it normal to have less sex in a
marriage after you have kids? And two how do you
make your way back to each other sexually after becoming parents?
Those are from two different listeners of ours.
Speaker 5 (23:11):
It is incredibly normal for your sex life to decrease
after having kids. So most couples won't have sex again
until like six to twelve months after having a kid,
and the frequency will be much lower than it was beforehand.
And that's really because kids change everything in your life. Right, Like,
you're exhausted, You're feeling all this anxiety, especially if you're
(23:35):
a first time parent, about like am I doing this right?
It feels like the dynamic is totally shifted between the
two of you, because now there are three of you
instead of just you and your partnership. Financial stress, like
everything changes, so of course our sex lives are going
to change as well. So I think just normalizing it
is the most important place to start, because so many
(23:56):
parents go into it with this expectation of, oh, we
have the and then we get cleared at the six
week mark, and things are supposed to go back to normal, right,
And that just does not happen for the vast majority
of parents. So one of the tips that I would
give for parents for finding each other again might sound
a little counterintuitive, but I think it's actually really important
(24:17):
for parents to make a little bit of space for
each other to be individual people. And this is especially
important for women who just have a different burden on
them with a brand new child. They're literally relying on
your body for survival. You've just grown them inside of
your body for months and months and months, and so
a lot of women just feel like they lose their
(24:39):
sense of self and it's so hard to show up
as a romantic partner when you're feeling like you're drowning
just trying to show up as a mother, So being
able to support each other and having a little bit
of alone time. And even if that alone time is
like I need sixty seconds to go into the closet
and close the door and be in the dark, and
(24:59):
just that's great, But just a little bit of time
for each other to have some separate space can be
so beneficial and like helping you feel like you come
back into your own skins so then you can reconnect
a little bit with your partner.
Speaker 4 (25:15):
I love that.
Speaker 2 (25:15):
It sounds like a lot I mean, correct me if
I'm summarizing this wrong, Vanessa, But a lot of the
advice I'm hearing from you is going back to like,
like love each other for who you are, be grateful
for each other, and kind of keep dating. Like when
you said throw logs on the fire that's going to
stick with me? Is that are you saying keep dating
that person? Is that a huge part of what you
(25:36):
tell people?
Speaker 5 (25:38):
Absolutely? Yeah. I mean people are always asking like, what
you know did why was it so much easier in
the beginning of the relationship, And I'm like, it wasn't.
You were just putting so much more effort in in
the beginning.
Speaker 1 (25:48):
It was a priority because we wanted to make something happen.
Speaker 4 (25:51):
We wanted to make the person like us.
Speaker 1 (25:53):
But you can't. You just can't treat a relationship like
it was a building, like oh, look I built it,
and then you can walk away thinking that that buildings
to be there tomorrow. It's like, you got to keep
that same energy, the same concept of hitting on that person,
flirting with that person, dating that person.
Speaker 5 (26:07):
Yeah, if you want that new relationship energy to sustain
throughout the relationship, you have to keep showing up in
the same sort of way you did at the beginning
of the relationship.
Speaker 2 (26:16):
Well, I love all this so much. Now, one thing
we do a lot is we go through celebrity headlines.
So we have some celebrity news headlines for you too
that have spurred some sex conversations. I'm gonna call them
sex celebrity headlines. This week, we're going to start off
with one that went everywhere. I don't know if you
all have heard of them, but Larsa Pippen, current Real housewife,
(26:37):
former wife of Scottie Pippen, is dating Marcus Jordan, son
of Michael Jordan. We could probably get into a lot
of sex therapy about the fact that she's dating her
ex husband's dear friend's son. But anyway, they said that
they have sex five times a night, a night.
Speaker 1 (26:55):
And not a week.
Speaker 2 (26:57):
I actually separately got this question from some people dming me, So,
how much is too much? How often is normal? How
much should couples be having sex every week? What's healthy?
Speaker 5 (27:08):
This is the big question that we always get asked,
what is that magic number? And I know so many
people saw that interview and just thought, like, exactly what
you were saying, Chris, like five times a day? Like
most people like, I don't know if we even do
it five times a month.
Speaker 1 (27:22):
Kind of somebody's walking away with a limp like that.
Speaker 4 (27:25):
Doesn't sound physically enjoyable. Day, no pain.
Speaker 1 (27:30):
Numbers numbers four and five, You're not. You're just you're
trying to survive. It's you know, at numbers four and
five of sex in the same night that is the
last four miles of a marathon. You're just trying not
to wet yourself, Your toenails are falling off. You just
like let this be over.
Speaker 5 (27:48):
So as a sex therapist, I will tell you that truly,
there is no one magic number that's going to work
for every single couple. But honestly, I think that we
have the wrong question. So many people are so fixated
on how much sex should we be having, But in reality,
the quality of the sex that we're having is so
(28:08):
much more important than the quantity. So if you're having
sex that feels kind of boring its routine, you do
the same things over and over again, it's very predictable, Like,
there's no point in forcing yourselves to try to do
that five times a day. It's not going to be
an enjoyable experience. And the more that we really like
push ourselves to focus on the quality and the quantity, like,
(28:33):
the more we might actually notice our sex drive decrease
because we're not having an enjoyable experience.
Speaker 1 (28:38):
Yeah.
Speaker 6 (28:38):
I actually thought of a really great comparison, Chris. It's like,
for golf, would you rather play five really bad games
of golf a week or like one really awesome one
where you come away feeling great about yourself? Like, if
you do those five and it's like a struggle, you're
throwing your clubs, Like, how are you going to find
the motivation to do another five than that?
Speaker 1 (28:59):
You're just going through the motion.
Speaker 2 (29:00):
So I'm also wondering when they're working eating. That's so
much time during the day, five times a day, how
much it's so much time.
Speaker 1 (29:07):
A lot of medical stuff comes into play. You've got
to get your fluids, you've got to get your electrolytes in.
You need some protein if you're going to survive that.
But so I like your idea of quality over quantity.
Don't worry about the number, worry about the quality. So
what does that mean? What can we do to make
the quality better when we are intimate?
Speaker 5 (29:27):
So, the biggest thing that comes up in male female
relationships is the orgasm gap. So research has found that
men are having way more orgasms than women are having.
And when we talk to male female relationships, is almost
always the woman who's saying, like, my sex drive feels
pretty low. I don't really want it, feels like my
partner wants it all the time. What's wrong with me?
(29:50):
As women, we have the tendency to blame ourselves. I
feel like we're the ones who are the problem. And
so we'll ask her like, okay, well describe the sex
that you are having to us, and she'll describe it
as like, well, it's all about him, it's on his timeline.
As soon as he's done, We're done. There's not really
anything in it for me. So our biggest piece of
advice is to make sure that her pleasure is prioritized
(30:12):
as much as his pleasure is, and practically, like sometimes
that might even be her having an orgasm or her
being the focus first before you move on to him.
So going back to you know, the we were talking
about four play earlier, we actually hate the word foreplay.
It's on the first page of our guide, like we
know you just s popped this guy. This says ultimate
foreplay guides, But we actually don't like this word because
(30:34):
it implies that these things are like lesser than like
intercourse is the main thing, and four plays just like
that's just the stuff you do for thirty seconds on
the way to intercourse. But the reality is for women,
you are much more likely to make her orgasm with
your hands or your mouth than you are with intercourse.
In reality, only ten to fifteen percent of women can
(30:54):
orgasm from intercourse. So focusing more on the hands and
the mouth is going to go a very long way
from both of you.
Speaker 6 (31:01):
And the.
Speaker 1 (31:03):
Talking. As you said, you know, in general, this is
a taboo subject. But what I find also interesting is
how reluctant. We are just to have a conversation with
our significant other of Babe, what can I do to
make you orgasm? What can I do to help you?
Speaker 2 (31:22):
I think people are really worried about hurting each other's feelings,
which is a good thing, but that's what I think.
Speaker 6 (31:28):
Oh yeah, we got so worried about hurting the other's
feelings by Oh if I say this, they're going to
think I'm implying that, or they're going to think that
I mean something totally different. Or we get this idea
in our heads that okay, because we have been doing
it this way for the last X number of years,
or because this was the way these are like the
three positions that we did the first you know, a
(31:50):
couple times we had sex, that somehow we've made this
blood oath that this is the way that we do it.
So many people come to us with this of oh, well,
I couldn't possibly do another position because these are the
ones that we've always done, or well, I couldn't possibly
do this because one time, you know, she said like,
don't go down on me, and so therefore she never
(32:11):
wants me to do it. And it's like, you know,
the only way to really understand what we actually want
is to keep talking about this stuff. I mean, our
preferences change sometimes early on relationships. We say things because
we think we're you know, trying to help our partner
out or throw them a bone, and then you know,
you don't want them to take that one thing you
said and be like, okay, cool, now I never do
(32:32):
this or I always do that. So yeah, like you're saying, Chris,
the talking about it is so important.
Speaker 1 (32:38):
And people really should. I mean, look, women are very mysterious.
They're impossible to figure out. So guys when they give
you an actual statement of this is the roadmap. I mean, God,
bless you, thank you. Now I got it, and then they're.
Speaker 5 (32:55):
Practical tip here. So most men like really do want
to please partners, but one of the big mistakes that
they make is asking what can I do for you?
Or what do you want me to do? And the
problem with that question is it's too broad. You don't
know how to answer it, like and then that's where
we get into this place. Well, I don't want to
hurt his feelings, and what do I say? And for
(33:16):
a lot of us women, it's like, well, I don't
even know what I need, So what am I supposed
to do? So instead, what we recommend is give her
two options to choose from. We call this the eye
exam games. You know, when you get your eyesight checked,
they show you like, okay, look at this slide. Is
this one more clear or is this one more clear? Like,
when you have two options to choose from, it makes
(33:37):
the decision just feel so much easier and more straightforward.
So you could do this, you know, you could do
it for broad things like do you like it better
when I use my hands on you or when I
use my mouth on you? And then you could even
get really specific in the moment, like let's say you're
using your hands, try two slightly different techniques with your hands,
and ask do you like this one better or this
(33:58):
one better? So it gives her options to choose from,
and it also shows that you genuinely do care about
her pleasure because you're willing to come up with the
options for her rather than just making her come up
with everything.
Speaker 1 (34:11):
So is my takeaway here. These are conversations and things
that are best kind of in the heat of the moment,
as opposed to we're having dinner, babe, what do you
think about this when I do that.
Speaker 5 (34:23):
We're at Applebee's and we're like, that is a great question,
you know. So we actually wrote a book called Sex Talks,
The Five Conversations that Will Transform Your Love Life, Because
talking about sex it's another one of those things that
like we all sort of know that we should be
doing it, but we don't know how to do it.
And so again we wanted to make it like really
clear and break it down step by step. So the
(34:44):
first conversation that we start with in the book is
what we call the acknowledgment conversation, which is simply getting
comfortable with the idea of talking about sex. So, if
you and your partner have never talked about sex before,
we actually don't want you to jump right into like
what can I do better? How do I improve? What
do you want?
Speaker 6 (35:02):
Yeah? Or like in the moment, like that's going to
feel like it's supernting.
Speaker 5 (35:06):
Yeah, it's going to feel too intimidating for both of you,
and you're more likely to have a conversation that goes
off the rails. So instead, we want you to start
outside of the bedroom, and we want you to talk
about sex in a positive way or even in a
neutral way. So all you're trying to do is get
comfortable with it as a topic of conversation. So one
of the best, like practical conversation openers would be to
(35:27):
ask your partner, what are some of your favorite sexual
memories with me? So that gets a two of you
like reminiscing about great experiences you had together, and it
also starts to highlight some good information like, oh, maybe
all in all of our favorite sexual experiences, it was
we were doing like a lot of positions, or we
(35:48):
had her go first, or there was a certain way
it got initiated. But it's just getting the two of
you comfortable talking about the topic openly.
Speaker 6 (35:56):
Yeah, and then when it comes to the more specific
stuff like Vanessa was mentioning before, oh, do you like
this technique or that technique? I think in general it's
best to start initiating those conversations outside of the bedroom
in a more neutral setting, because if you're not used
to talking about sex while you're having sex or right afterwards,
it can bring up a little bit of anxiety. And
(36:17):
so I think it's good to start talking about, Hey,
it would be fun to try a couple of things
I want to you know, I want to support you
in having a better experience, So would you be open
to in the moment us, you know, me giving you
a couple of options, see what you like, and then
talking about you know, how each one is or what
you think.
Speaker 4 (36:38):
Wow, I think that's such a good note to end on.
Speaker 2 (36:40):
I don't even want to waste more time on these
celebrity headlines because we have real questions from our audience
to get to. So we're going to go for that
in the next episode. Vanessa and Xander Marin. Their book
is called Sex Talks The Five Conversations that Will Change
Your Love Life. Their podcast is Pillow Talks and you
can find them on social media. And we're going to
be back with questions from you.
Speaker 1 (37:01):
Thanks for listening. Follow us on Instagram at the most
dramatic pod ever and make sure to write us a
review and leave us five stars. I'll talk to you
next time.
Hosts And Creators
Lauren Zima
Chris Harrison
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