Warning Signs

Everything is narcissism this, narcissism that… 
 
World-renowned narcissism expert, Dr. Ramani is here to clear up all the misconceptions and telling you what to do if a narcissist is in your life. 

See omnystudio.com/listener for privacy information.

Episode Transcript

Speaker 1 (00:01):
This is the most dramatic podcast ever and iHeartRadio podcast.

Speaker 2 (00:07):
Everybody. Welcome to the most dramatic podcast ever. I am
Lauren Zima. Here solo in, as my husband would say,
the home office of Austin, Texas. Because my husband is out.
I'm going to call him out. He's out, very near
to the home office. But playing golf, and that feels right,
doesn't it. It's okay. We love him, we support him.
And here's the thing. He is playing in something he

(00:29):
looks forward to so much. I've just learned about it.
You may know about it. It's called a member guest
golf tournament, and it is very cute. It is a
time when he gets to bring in his best friend
from California to Texas to visit us and play in
this golf tournament. Chris is the member and his best
friendship is the guest, and so it's a beautiful thing.

(00:52):
It's like watching two little guys get to have a
playdate with a friend who moved away, or seeing two
friends reunited summer camp a year, and it's just lovely.
And I am a big proponent of friendships and their
importance in your romantic relationship. I love for Chris to
have time with his guy friends for me to have
time with my girlfriends. And that's actually something we get

(01:14):
into on the podcast today, the importance of friendships and
your social structure in making sure you're not in a
dangerous romantic relationship. And that comes from our guest doctor Romney.
She is so incredible. We've been working on getting around
the podcast for a minute because she's very booked and busy.
She is a clinical psychologist, a retired professor of psychology,

(01:38):
a best selling author. Her books include Don't You Know
Who I Am? How to Stay Sane in the Era
of Narcissism, Entitlement, and Inclivity. So that's what we're going
to hit the nail on the head with today is narcissism.
She through her research and her work, has basically become
one of the experts of the people the forefront of

(02:00):
the research on narcissism. And I feel like narcissism is
both obviously a very real thing, but then kind of
this buzzword that we hear a lot lately, especially like
in the worlds that Chris and I operate in of
reality TV. You certainly hear people accusing others of being narcissists,
And so the question is like, how real is it?
How many people are really narcissists? How much of a

(02:22):
buzzword is it? How much are we all encountering it
and don't know it. If you think you or a
friend might be in a narcissistic relationship, this podcast is
really going to help you. So Doctor Romney was incredible.
She answered so many questions, gave so many good takeaways,
and let's welcome her. Now, all right, doctor Romney, welcome.

(02:42):
I am so excited to talk to you because I
feel like if there's one person who pops up everywhere
on my Instagram in the algorithm with these incredible takeaways
on narcissism, it is you. So now, first I want
to ask you how did you become I mean, you've
written multiple books about narcissism. How did you become the

(03:05):
authority on narcissism? And is it something you wanted to
become or did it just happen?

Speaker 3 (03:11):
When you study narcissism, you never want to say you're
the authority on it because then you're thinking, no, I
don't want to be grandiose, but I've been doing this
for a long time and I wish it was like
a great origin story. It's kind of boring. I came
into it as an academic researcher and then as a
practicing therapist, and in those spaces it was sort of
it was one of those things where you like, the
missing puzzle piece seems so easy, right, I'm like, well,

(03:33):
if we explain narcissism, or we thought about this is narcissism,
it all makes sense. But there was a lot of
resistance to it. You know. Where I really noticed is
like the field of mental health didn't even want to
take this on, and there was a lot of sort
of being apologists for this behavior. Well maybe they have
a reason. I'm like, there's no reason to emotionally abuse someone, Like,
you're never going to come up with a rationale for
that for me. And so I got so I got

(03:55):
into it again as a researcher and as a therapist,
and it wasn't until many years later that I kind
of opened my eyes to these patterns were definitely in
my life too, and even my unwillingness to want to
see it. That really took me much to get much
more interested in what was happening to people in these relationships.
Lots of people. I've written about narcissism, but what happens

(04:15):
to people when they're in a narcissistic relationship. There was
much much less on that. So that was where That's
how I came into it, and I was really struck
by how much people are helped when they understand what
this is about, and above all else that it's not
their fault someone else. If someone else is treating you badly,
that's not your fault. They're engaging in a behavior. And

(04:35):
if you attempt to communicate with them and you get
worse treatment back, you got a real problem on your hands.
But then it's not you.

Speaker 2 (04:43):
Wow. Even from that, I have so much to want
to ask you before I forget it. What's striking to
me there is that you said there was a resistance
to acknowledge narcissism. Because I feel like today and I
did want to ask you about this, but today it
kind of feels like it's everywhere, maybe even and I
do want your opinion, but maybe even to the point
of like, are we over using it? So what was

(05:04):
the shift there? Why is it more acceptable now?

Speaker 3 (05:06):
I don't. I mean, I think that the shift has
been I think the shifts in the political landscape. I
think from twenty sixteen forward, and not just in the
United States, but throughout the world, there were leadership shifts
that meant journalists were using this word more.

Speaker 2 (05:21):
I think that you mean, we got some narcissistic leaders
in our Yeah.

Speaker 3 (05:25):
I'm trying to be I'm trying to be as both
sides of the aisle here as I can be. Right
we are and it's not and it's not just in
presidential or prime minister or not even just in the US.
It's not just its senates, it's senators, it's congress people,
it's you know, it's all of it. It's not just there.
We see it more in the celebrity world. To be
frank with you, I mean, I think that we're in

(05:45):
an era where we almost celebrate, revere, incentivize, and reward
narcissistic behavior. The more outlanders, the more grandiose, the more
attendency making we're standing up in applouding. I think of
the influencer economy, this is basically somebody who's saying, look
at me, look at me, look at me, and they're
they're making a lot of money at well. Once upon
a time, wasn't sort of a viable pathway to a career.

(06:07):
And yet people, the best influencers, I would imagine, at
some level, are able to sort of just sort of
make it about them. So in a strange way, narcissism
could incentivize a person being more economically successful in our
new sort of technologically driven economy. So I think though
the word coming more into the purview was that political shift.
I really believe it was that because as much as

(06:29):
journalists tried to avoid using it, you couldn't avoid it,
because it was the word that worked. And then I
think what happened was, you know, I mean, there were
people out there, myself included, who id YouTube channels, and
people were talking more about it, and then it helped
people make sense of stuff, and that of course led
to a lot of people wanting to talk about it.
But then the problem is, and this has always been

(06:50):
the problem with narcissism, it's a subtle topic. It's not
as simple as this is a person who brags, this
is a person who looks in the mirror or a lot,
this is a person who's superficial, or this is a
person who's who's egocentric. It's not that simple. It's so
much more subtle. And when we get into the weeds
of the subtlety, that's when people really feel understood. But

(07:11):
when we make it into more this simplistic black and white,
like my boyfriend cheated on me, he's narcissistic, I'm like,
your boyfriend cheated on you. But we're gonna have to
ask a few more questions to figure out if this
guy's narcissistic. That was not a nice thing to do,
but not everyone who does that is narcissistic. So I
think people are using the word as a hammer to
put people down, to paint themselves as the person who's suffering.

(07:34):
And it's not that simple. And I think the subtlety
means that we have to have a different kind of
a conversation. Unfortunately, the Internet and social media aren't built
for subtlety.

Speaker 2 (07:42):
So do you think the word is being overused now
or do you think it's okay?

Speaker 3 (07:50):
I do. I think that there are people who are
using it to identify one behavior in a relationship right
or they're using it to say, oh my gosh, you
takes so many selfie, she's narcissistic. And I'll say slow down.
Just because a person posts a lot of selfies. Am
I willing to up my bet that they might be narcissistic? Sure?
But am I willing to go all in on that bet. No.
I mean because it could very well be someone's posting

(08:11):
a lot of selfies I don't know, because they think
it's fun. But in the same breath, in the other
parts of their life, they're empathic, they're compassionate, they don't
believe they deserve special treatment, they're emotionally regulated, they don't
lash out at other people. So if a person does
that and post selfies, it's just like, I don't know,
Maybe that's our hobby, that's what they like to do,
maybe they like to share their lives. But if they're

(08:31):
not harming other people in their life, that this is
something I like to do. That's very, very different than
the person who's posting selfies and raging at people for
not liking their pictures and being jealous of other people
who are posting pictures and making fun of other people's
pictures and feeling you know, entitled to people paying attention
to their special things. Like it's that it's not just

(08:53):
the selfies, it's not just the infidelities. It's not just
like people who might. I don't know, like one, because
a lot on their appearance could be and like I said,
it ups the probability, but it's not a guarantee. And
I think we have to be careful that if somebody
does one selfish thing. My sister didn't come to my
birthday party, she's so narcissistic. I want to say, can

(09:14):
you tell me a little bit more about your sister?
And then i'd have to find now if you keep
telling me that this is just one of a thousand
of these instances, maybe so, But if that's the thing
your sister did, and otherwise you've had a good relationship
with her, and the first time she disappoints you, you're
calling her narcissistic. Yeah, that's not how that works.

Speaker 2 (09:31):
So well, I want to ask you a tough question
because you're just explaining how subtle it is and how
you need all this information to diagnose it or label
someone that. But how do you define narcissism? Then if
you have to give a simple definition just to kind
of get people on the same baseline page, what is narcissism?
What is a narcissist?

Speaker 3 (09:50):
I think right there is there is no simple definition.
I think that's whatever wants they want the one liner, right,
I mean like I'm going to give you a run
on sentence. A personality stable, consistent, what we call pervasive.
It cuts across all situations. This is how the person
is most of the time, especially in unguarded circumstances like
people close to them, Right, And so the things that

(10:12):
show up are lack of empathy, self centeredness, grandiosity, arrogance, entitlement,
excessive need for admiration and validation. They need to be
in control, they need to be the ones in power.
And the way this shows up in relationships it again

(10:36):
they can be very again domineering and controlling. But the
thing you got to remember too is a lot of
narcissistic people can be charming and charismatic, confident, compelling, attractive.
There's something that's drawing us to them and what makes
them sort of it allows them sort of enter situations easily.
But at the core of narcissism is a tremendous insecurity
and that's the piece that sometimes makes people feel bad like, oh,

(10:56):
if they're insecure, well I shouldn't. I shouldn't be dismissive.
So it's not about being dismissive it's about being willing
to clock their behavior is unacceptable. What's their behavior? Their
behavior tends to be very manipulative, dismissive, invalidating gas lighting.
They get angry very quickly if they're frustrated, if they're disappointed,

(11:17):
they tend to lie. They'll cheat, they will blame, they'll
shift blame on other people even though they're clearly responsible.
They won't take responsibility for anything. They will breadcrumb. They'll
give people less and less and less, and before you
know it, you're like, oh my gosh, they said thank you,
it was such a good day. You know, like that's
probably do low a bar. There is a there's a

(11:39):
lot of shame in these relationships, and when they feel shame,
they rage out at other people. So there's a lot
of volatility, a lot of dysregulation. Narcissistic people often walk
around feeling like victims. If things don't go the way
they want, they're the victim. There can be overt aggression,
there can be passive aggression. That's what narcissism is. And
like I said, it really belies an easy one line
like narcissistic people or people love themselves, they actually don't

(12:01):
love themselves. At all. There's a lot of self loathing
in a narcissistic person, but that they're not in touch
with all that stuff. So it really comes off as
a person who just says, look at me, I'm so
great and everyone's lucky to know me.

Speaker 2 (12:14):
Well, that last is a bit is impactful. Look at me,
I'm so great, everybody. Well. I had a therapist tell
me this once because I do think I've been in
a relationship with a narcissist in the past and I
wanted to get your read on if this is an
accurate statement or not. This therapist told me, well, narcissism
is a spectrum, Like you know, at one end you

(12:36):
might have an egotistical person. At the other end you
might have like a clinical psychopath. So do you like,
how do we then diagnose people as narcissists or could
you say someone as narcissistic tendencies? Like what if they
check eight of those boxes but they don't lie, but
they do a bunch of the other things.

Speaker 3 (12:54):
Let's lose the word diagnose. Okay, that's the wrong word,
because a diagnosis is something that a a clinician does. Right,
This isn't a diagnosis, it's a personality style. We might
say we we look at a pattern and we think, like,
there's a lot of these patterns here, so you're you're
the therapist you talk to. Is absolutely right. It is
on a spectrum, and at the mild end, you know

(13:16):
it is a It's like ecocentricity, selfishness, some arrogance, emotional immaturity,
emotional stuntedness at best, sometimes annoying, but if you're in
a relationship with them, it's more problematic when you get
all the way up to the top of the top
of the distribution. Now you're talking about malignant narcissism, which

(13:38):
is coercive and manipulative and exploitative. They take advantage of
people's vulnerabilities. These are people who are isolating. It's scary.
It can even be physically violent. And in between there's
all the other All the other stuff shows up. It
just shows up to varying or lesser degrees. Psychopathy is
its own separate category. While there's a lot of overlap

(13:58):
between narcissism and psychopathy, they're not the same thing. So
I view the top of that narcissism continuum, malignant narcissism
to almost be the last stop on the train where
you switch trains to go over to psychopathy station, which
is real close by, by the way, And so it
is a continuum. And that's why a person who's in
a relationship or maybe has a sibling or a parent

(14:18):
who's mildly narcissistic, and they were to hear the story
of someone who's in a severely narcissistic relationship, they might
even say, maybe this person isn't narcissistic. My god, they
are sort of mildly narcissistic, but certainly it's not the
same as someone who's in a relationship with someone who's
malignantly narcissistic. So I think it's when I try to
tell people this over and over again, don't get lost

(14:39):
in trying to figure out if this person is narcissistic,
but give yourself permission to call out patterns in that
relationship that are unhealthy. Just call them out to yourself,
because if this person's narcissistic, they're not going to listen
to you. So it's less about that are they narcissistic,
and more about what's happening in this relationship.

Speaker 2 (14:58):
Oh interesting, See, I feel like I feel like from
when I've heard or read it's like, well, with narcissists, like,
there's no fixing them. They can't even see their problems,
there's no them getting better. And I'm kind of like
taking in what you just said that it's more like, well,
look at what's happening specifically in this relationship.

Speaker 3 (15:16):
Yeah, but it's still not going to changeeah. I mean,
I agree with it's not going to change, but you
But my point is is that when a person's like, well,
this is happening, this is happening. It's been happening for
ten years, and it happens all the time, and it's happened,
are they narcissistic? I'm like, it doesn't matter. You are
being emotionally abused. You can call this whatever the hell
you want. It's not okay. Guess is that it probably
is narcissism. But I think that because we associate the

(15:37):
narcissism with the part that's not going to change Anyone
who's got these kinds of interpersonally harmful behaviors across situations
consistently and shift blame and if you try to point
things out, they rage even more. That's not going to change.
There's no in if you try to show them what's happening?
They scream at you. More so, how are you ever
going to facilitate change? There's no possibility. That's what tells

(15:59):
you the door shut.

Speaker 2 (16:13):
Well. And for me, it's a little striking, and I
love that you. You know, you're like, it's not it's
not you. I think when I kind of got out
of that relationship, like you're in it and you're trying
to make it work because you know, you think I'm
in this relationship and it takes two to tango, and
like everybody has stuff they could work on, and I'm
not perfect either, and you're trying to make it work.

(16:34):
And then you realize that that person, like for me anyway,
was not putting in any effort and nothing was changing.
And so then that was when I got out of it,
and I was like, whoa, maybe I am Like I
had been questioning if I myself was capable of a
healthy relationship, and I got out of it, and then
I'm like, oh no, wait, it wasn't me. I am kidding.

(16:57):
And it's a little striking because I also think of
myself as a person, and so then I think, but
how did I wind up in that? And I wanted
to ask you about that, because it's because of what
you mentioned earlier when you said that you'd seen in
your own life, maybe you had some people like that
in your own life as well. So was that a
little Did you have an experience like that where you thought, wait,
how did I wind up here? Now?

Speaker 3 (17:18):
All the time? I mean every time, but I guess
my question would be too, I'll put it right back
at you. How did you think you ended up there?
What did you What was the answer for yourself?

Speaker 2 (17:27):
I think that I had lost my dad and so
I was in a state of grief and didn't realize it.
And then I got very close with the person's family
very quickly, and really I kind of fell in love
with the family more than him. And then as time
went on, I was like, oh wait, I wasn't even
like in this relationship, and I kind of saw he
really was.

Speaker 3 (17:47):
I'm so glad you brought that up.

Speaker 2 (17:49):
Lord.

Speaker 3 (17:49):
Actually, it's a really important point because a lot of
people wonder, like what happened, like, let me play it out?
In fact, you just lay out laid out here a
really important exercise I do with survivors, which is this
idea of let's play out this timeline and you just
you know, you you identified such an important point here,
which was when I met him, I had you know,
I was going through this really transitional phase in my life,

(18:11):
and I always this is why when you when you
meet new when you're entering relationships after a big breakup,
a move to a new city, a major loss in
your family, you have to be very careful because you're
not on your game in the same way, and you're
often looking for something that's actually beyond traditional intimacy, like

(18:31):
a place to land, a place to belong, and because
of that, you may not miss you, and so you
may not see some of the patterns, like a person
moving to a new city is just so relieved to
have a place, like a person to be in touch
with that we might be more likely to excuse things
that we wouldn't have if we were in a much
more sort of unsteady footing, we'd be like that, not okay,

(18:53):
but somehow in the newer, in that transitional space or
when we're trying to find something else, we're more likely
to do it. So it's it's interesting because being in
a transitional space like that, or being in a rush
like people are like Okay, I'm thirty six. I got
to get me into a relationship kind of thing. Is
that is also a tricky spot because people will be like, Okay,

(19:14):
this person's manning four out of the things on my list.
That's enough, and you're like, okay, we'll deal with the
rest of that later. It's almost like I'm just gonna
put everything in a closet and deal with it later.
I'm like, that's going to catch up on you. And
so that's with the That's one of the issues is
that you by understanding that how so many of us
when we go back to that origin story, there was
either a we were drawn and I'm guessing even with

(19:36):
your former partner, there was something quite compelling. You were
drawn to, whether they were attractive, interesting, confident, charming, charismatic.
Sometimes even people say it's interesting. They weren't any of
those things, but they were there seemed to be like
this kind of underdog, unlucky feel. And the person says,
and I own it. I'm a fixer and I wanted
to get in there and give them a car and

(19:57):
give them a place to live and help them. And
they said, I I feel alive when I help people.
The problem is then instead, they don't even identify it
as sort of the love bombing, because it's more of
this kind of I was helping them, and I felt
good about it, and I could see some shifts, and
then they were in this relationship with someone who's always
a victim and passive aggressive, and you're like, huh, So

(20:18):
my point is is that all of us are attracted
to narcissistic people because they're attractive. Okay, all of us are,
in our fashion attractive to narcissistic people because we're all
attractive in our own unique ways, right, we all represent
different kinds of supply. The real question and the real
problem learning comes down to who gets stuck in these

(20:38):
relationships because some people will see those patterns and say, ye, no,
this isn't cool and I'm going to get out. But
there's things about us that make us more vulnerable to
getting stuck, and that could be having had narcissistic parents
and early history of trauma, being a forgiver, like believing
I'm going to just keep giving them second chances, being

(20:59):
a rescue were, being optimistic, being really empathic. All of
those things make you more vulnerable to getting stuck. So
you have these vulnerabilities to getting into the first place,
but more importantly, we have vulnerabilities to getting stuck. And
those are the more meaningful ones because I think we
all at some level are attracted to them, and it
made sense what we were attracted to. But if we're at

(21:19):
all in a tricky spot. And I know for some
folks i've met, I was in a transitional phase and
that's what made me. That's what made me sort of
off my game. And that's why I always say, if
you're gonna, if you're going to go out there and
try to meet people, it's like the Olympics, Like you
got to be in your touch, your your fighting shape
and weight, Like you've got to be meaning that you've
got to be in a good place, right, Like a

(21:41):
relationship is never a substitute for a crappy life.

Speaker 2 (21:45):
Wow, the title of your next book right there? You
know what can you expand on that for me and
really break it down, like what what place should people
be in when they're looking for a relationship. What are
some hallmarks of like their mental state and where they're
at in their life When it's like, okay, you can
now go have a good, healthy relationship, because I think
so often we're out there trying to find the right person,

(22:07):
not making sure that we're in the right place for
the right relationship.

Speaker 3 (22:11):
So right place would be a solid social support network
around you, robust friendships if you're fortunate, family relationships called
collegial relationships, member, you know, being a part of whatever
community groups, whatever your social network is. That that's you've
got to have that number one. That's got to be
in place, because social other people, social support, those social

(22:31):
networks are so important, and the idea of a one
person relationship, I think a lot of people delude themselves
like if I've got my person, I'll be fine. The
hell you will. Your network is actually gonna end up
being more important. That's number one. Number two is that
you have you have things in your life that are yours,
whether they're meaningful and purposeful, through your work, through your

(22:55):
things you do in your community, through creative endeavors, things
that matter to you that you know like this is
my this is my thing, like this and I'm going
to do it, and I'm going to it matters to
me to build it in my life. That you're very
aware that you've got that piece in that you are
in a you've got healthy routines. I know it sounds silly, like, oh,

(23:16):
come to me, like brush your teeth. Yeah, kind of
brush your teeth, Like you've got things like you do,
and you've got rhythms in your life. That gets back
to that transitional space because one and you don't have
to live someplace twenty five years of a routine. It's
just that you've got things in your life that are
your touchstones and your landmarks, and they're predictable and you
value those and I think that those things we kind
of have to have. Those things that obviously we have

(23:37):
to address our mental health. Like a person who is
whatever mental health issues may be coming up that they
feel like they haven't addressed, it would be good to
address those because those sorts of things, too can lead
someone to doubt their judgment with a new person or
almost sometimes sell themselves short as they're meeting people. Those
things matter. But I'm gonna be serious with you, girl,
like I have to say I've met narcissistic people when

(23:59):
I was at the top of my game, and that
I have to say to a lot of people listening
to this. I think there's people saying, you know, when
I met the narcissistic person I was. I loved my job,
I love my apartment, I love my friends. So while
those things are important, they're not a narcissism antidote effect
of anything. People kind of almost get I don't want
to say cocky, but cocky where they think like, I'm

(24:21):
in a great place. And so when the things start happening,
because a narcissistic relationship isn't a switch that goes on,
We're having a great relationship. Now I'm going to gaslight
you twenty times a day. It's a slow indoctrination, and
so you're in this great thing and it kind of
gets worse slowly. I always say it starts off like
ninety nine percent good and maybe one percent bad. Then

(24:43):
it goes down to ninety percent good, ten percent bad,
eighty percent good, twenty percent bad, seventy thirty, sixty, forty.
One day you wake up, it's fifty to fifty. By
fifty to fifty, though, you're probably doing a lot of
mental heavy lifting around justifying and rationalizing. And maybe it's
me and maybe I'm being too demand or maybe I'm
being too selfish about wanting to hold onto my former

(25:03):
life forty sixty thirty seventy one day you wake up
and you're at ten ninety and it's just not a
good scene. And every so often maybe there's a less
abusive day or something.

Speaker 2 (25:14):
And then that makes you hold on.

Speaker 3 (25:15):
You're like, it makes you hold on, like, well, they
didn't yell at me today, right, Like it's not even
like we had great sex. It's like they didn't yell
at me, and that's a good day.

Speaker 2 (25:22):
The bar is on the floor, the bars the.

Speaker 3 (25:25):
Bar is not on the floor. The bar is subterraneous.
It's like under the ground.

Speaker 2 (25:31):
Is the narcissist conscious of turning that dial up slowly
or is it just in their nature and that's what
they do in relationships.

Speaker 3 (25:40):
I think that it's it's in their nature. I don't
think it's like they've got a calendar like, okay, you know,
June seventeenth, let's start the devalue phase. It's not that.
I think what happens is for narcissistic people are very
novelty seeking, so they get bored easily, and so once
they have, like I say, narcissistic supply gets stale. But

(26:00):
that doesn't mean they want to throw it out. They're
like costco. They just keep lots of stuff on the shelf,
and so they will keep you around because you serve
some function to them. You might be a source of status,
You might connect them to certain people. You might be predictable,
You might make them look good in public because now
they have a fiance or they have a girlfriend or
a wife or a partner or whatever. And so you

(26:21):
serve a function, you're part of a performance, and so
they're not ready to give up your part. But it's
almost like once they know they've got you. I always
say it's like a butterfly under glass. Once they capture
the butterfly under glass, they kind of put it on
a shelf and forget about it. And so they chase
you for a while to get you and the net
and get you under the glass. And once they get
you under the glass, you're a beautiful thing that sits

(26:41):
on the shelf.

Speaker 2 (26:42):
Oh this is hitting me so hard right now. Yeah. Wow,
I feel like you just answered a part something for
me about that relationship, because I wondered, like why did
he bother? Like I was like, you know, if you
want to live your life, like go live that way,
why did you bother to be in a committed relationship
with me, you know, if it wasn't like really what

(27:03):
you wanted if you want to be that Like, this
makes so much sense. The status collection and the butterfly
under the glass, Well we got a fly free think,
you know. And by the way, I'm like, thank god
I got out. I'm so happy now. It taught me
so much. I really believe, like we have to learn
where we've been, and if you're happy where you are,
you can't regret where you've been because it led me here.
But what how much do people have to look out

(27:25):
for this? Like is there data on what percentage of
people out there are on that narcissism spectrum or or
I don't know if it if maybe you give me
that number by saying they would be narcissists holy or
just somewhere on the spectrum. What's the percentage?

Speaker 3 (27:40):
We don't have great data and actually my my myself
and my collaborator, doctor Heather Harris, we collected some data
and we did we did what was called a general
population survey, so instead of just focusing on a specific group,
we went out It's like almost like dipping a ladel
into the ocean and pulling it out like you're from
the biggest body of water instead of just a tiny
little well. And in that sample, and this is really

(28:02):
rough numbers, we just collected this data. What we were
finding was, you know, we were finding rates in the
way we were measuring it, of about ten percent, so
one in ten, one in ten people who are narcissistic
enough where you'd notice it where it caused problems in
a relationship kind of thing. Right, So it's not so
mild that people would be like whatever, they like their

(28:23):
selfies or you know, they're obsessed with getting plastic surgery
or whatever. You know, the people like, it's not they're
not mean, they're sort of ridiculous, but that's about it.
The one in ten is enough that people are like, yeah, no,
this isn't cool, Like there is manipulation, There is that
kind of thing. So that's I think that's not a
bad guess. Now, in that ten percent, we have the
whole range from the mild to the severe. If I

(28:45):
would say the severe probably one to three percent of
the total. You know, I would say that the milder one,
you know, the milder ones are all like it's probably
pretty even, but maybe the least the least would be
the one percent of the entire population would be the
severe one to two percent, and then we'd see the
higher percentages of the moderate and the milder ones.

Speaker 2 (29:06):
So, yeah, is addiction connected to narcissisms?

Speaker 3 (29:10):
Yeah, a lot. There's a high correlation. I would say
when you look at addiction, probably fifty to sixty percent
overlap that. About sixty fifty to sixty percent of people
living with addiction also have narcissistic personalities. It it's very
interesting here because I've worked with enough folks who said,
you know, had a partner and they were there was
lots of denial, and they were really selfish, and they
were unempathic, and they were entitled da da da da

(29:33):
la la la. And then they and they were also
an alcoholic and they were rageful. And then they went
to treatment and they went to twelve step and they
did all the things. They worked the steps and they
said and they came out the other end and it
was like a new person and it was no longer
a tough relationship. And they assumed that the person was
narcissistic because they had all the narcissistic step. But then

(29:54):
they went through treatment, they were sober, and they'd been
sober for a few years, and like, this is much better.
That to me is probably someone who just had addiction.
When you have someone who has both, they will go
through treatment, they will stop drinking, stop using, whatever come out,
and maybe six, nine, twelve months out are not using.
But they're still manipulative, they're still gaslighting, they're still entitled.

(30:19):
They might even weaponize their sobriety. Look how much better
I am than you? Like that kind of stuff, And
in those circumstances, family, loved ones, friends will be like
there as bad as always. Maybe the rage is a
little bit tamped down, but this is as bad as always.
When we thought if they got sober, things would get better,
that's when I hear the story that there was a

(30:40):
lot of narcissism under that addiction. And the problem is
a lot of substance abuse. Substance use treatment it's not
focused addiction. Treatment is not focused on personality. We don't
have enough time. It's often like twenty eight day to
six week if you're lucky treatment centers. Probably about ninety
percent of people living with addiction don't have access to
high quality treatment, while twelve is free and in some

(31:00):
ways twelve step programs do kind of try to chip
away at the narcissism by addressing things like accountability and
you know, the relative powerlessness, like taking away that sense
of power, making genuine amends, addressing selfishness, being humble. Those
are actually attempts to dismantle the narcissism. But I've known
plenty of people go through twelve step and they're still

(31:22):
they're showing up to twelve step narcissistic. It's almost like
competitive twelve step or something, which is not really how
the program is.

Speaker 2 (31:41):
So I want to ask before I forget. You mentioned
earlier like being vulnerable and that might make you or
being in a transition phase, and that might mean, you know,
all these things that you might be more vulnerable to
a relationship with a narcissist. And you mentioned if you
had narcissistic parents, So why you if you have narcissistic parents,

(32:02):
why is that making you more vulnerable to maybe being
in a relationship with a narcissist.

Speaker 3 (32:06):
So having a narcissistic relationship is a great question. Having
a narcissistic relationship is very impactful developmentally, because from a
very early age, these are children who are basically they're
not parented as much as they're in the service of
the narcissistic parent. They have to be what the parent wants.
They If they behave badly, the parent personalizes, how could
you do this to me? When the child expresses feelings,

(32:29):
the parent will often shame them, how could you? You're
so selfish? You make everything about your Yeah, they're a kid,
and so if the child has a need the parent
will feel it. Will often say they're inconvenienced about it,
or that it's selfish. The child has that The child
is often only noticed when they're a convenience to the
parent or they're making the parent look good. So all
of that combines to really teach a child that the
only way I can attach to this caregiving person in

(32:52):
my life is to become what they want. I can't
be my true self. If my true self shows up,
it will be dangerous. This person is going to reject me.
Kid can't take that kind of a risk. So the
child really learns to suppress themselves. The clinical term is
the subjugated itself. They just sort of they become what
the other person, in many ways wants to survive. You know,

(33:14):
and depending on how severe the parent's narcissism is it
can be actually be quite traumatizing and unsettling, and so
you never quite feel psychologically safe. So the child learns
a safety behavior in all of this is really to
sort of to give in or to sort of hold back,
but more than anything is to cut off parts of

(33:34):
themselves because it's too dangerous for those things to show up.
And that love is conditional. So if that's the model
you grew up with, and now you're out in the
world meeting people, then when somebody's behaving like that, and
I'm not, by no means am I saying that people
who grow up with the narcissistic people are massa chiss
or signing up for this. What happens is is that
when they get into a relationship and it starts out

(33:56):
good and all of that, when that's slow in validation
that ninety ten, eighty twenty I was talking about, When
that slow invalidation kind of kicks in, then the person
sort of it's it's you've been indoctrinated to believe that's
somewhat normal, and in fact to express the need is
not good. So the first time the narcissistic your partner
tells you, you're being selfish for expressing a need that's

(34:18):
actually completely in line with anything you've ever known. In fact,
you doesn't even feel like weird in your body. You're like,
of course, here, I am being selfish again. We may
not run away from the so called red flags because
they're sort of normalized, and it really diminishes your sense
of self to have a narcissistic parent. So it's a
lot harder to advocate for yourself, to stand up for yourself,
to show up as your real self. You may not

(34:39):
even know what that is because it was never allowed
to blossom or develop. So those are all the ways
that it can make you more vulnerable.

Speaker 2 (34:47):
I mean, was Freud right on? Like? Are we all
is our? Are we all looking for love that's similar
to our parents and love we had with our parents?
Is that an element?

Speaker 3 (34:55):
I don't think so. I actually don't think we are.
There's something that's something really important to keep in mind.
And this is where I hope anyone listening to this
who's younger, and as we talk more about mental health
and give more permission to it, and you know, therapy
is not the sort of thing you hide from everyone.
Is that the degree to which we could create a
coherent narrative about our childhood that accounts for everything to say, like,

(35:16):
my parent was super selfish, they were in no position
to be a parent. My bad luck was I got
assigned to them as them being my parent, and as
a result, I didn't learn to express myself and I
got to take a minute and figure out who I
am and understand, like this could be my parent. I
can even kind of have that sense of love or
duty or obligation to a parent, but recognize like not cool,

(35:39):
like this was not okay. When we can hold on
to something like that, we're actually in a better position
to say, who this feels like it's happening again. But
since most people when we meet people, we tend to
be younger, right, we often tend to get into relationships,
especially some people get into their permanent relationships in their
twenties or long term relationships twenties early thirties. It's amazing
how unself examined remain up to that point, because there's

(36:01):
still a lot of neural development happening till we're twenty five.
The prefrontal cortex is still rocking and rolling until you're
about twenty five years old, and so it's by the
time all that happens, you're you're already at an age
of people. I think you're getting into relationships, and so
that creation is a coherent narrative that you know, either
people it's one extreme or the other. Like cause also

(36:22):
some people like I have nothing to do with my family,
they harmed me so much at the level of trauma,
that's a different kind of working through. But I think
that that you're not. Nobody's doomed, but I think it's trickier.
And if somebody had a parent like this, there's a
little bit more work that needs to be done. And
in essence, you almost have to move slower into a relationship.

(36:42):
So you can almost like let each step settle. It's
almost like walking into cold water, like okay, let me
let my feet get we a little warm market, let's
go up to my knees instead of running with reckless
abandon into the surf. And so you got to take
a minute and kind of get used to it, because
otherwise those old pad can flood us and it's and
then we feel like this is you know, this is

(37:04):
how it is. This is how relationships are well and.

Speaker 2 (37:07):
What you said about being in a good place with
friendships with you know, work with colleagues. I think that's
so important. And I think what we tend to do
is we tend to think the relationship is going to
solve everything in our life. Right, Like when people move
to a new city, they start dating and they're lonely,
and they're like, well, I just I haven't met anyone
here yet. And you know, we all it's wonderful to

(37:30):
search for love because you know, I think we're all
here to find love and love is the most beautiful
thing on earth. But I don't think love is going
to solve all your problems. And I don't think that
your romantic relationship needs to be the end all be
all in your life. Like all these other parts of
us are so important and actually make our romantic relationships better,
but we don't do that. We look for the love,

(37:50):
especially when we're young.

Speaker 3 (37:52):
It's a bad cell. I mean, I think it's the
fairy tale cell. I think it's patriarchal cell.

Speaker 2 (37:57):
I think it's too so why do you think it's
a patriarchal cell.

Speaker 3 (38:00):
Because I mean, when you think of the original construction
of marriage, it really did benefit men. It's long term caregiving.
It's it's meals, it's children raised, it's a maintenance of
a power structure. I mean, I don't want to sound
like I'm anti long term committed relationship. I think there's
I think a healthy, long term committed relationship is a huge,
huge contributor to psychological health. But I think this idea

(38:21):
of your one person forever or that has to happen
when you're younger, even though women have to have children,
I think to allow people to take that time with
themselves subjectively and say what could this look like with me?
One thing? I'm really inspired, especially when I'm seeing younger
gen z. They're making a lot more. They're being more
creative in their decision making around relationships. And I think
some in my age, I mean like there was only

(38:43):
one path to take and if you didn't, you were
weird and so but I think that you know, we
know actually for the longest time marriage benefited men more
than women. It did because I mean, think about it,
somebody came into my house and decided to clean it
and cook me meals and have sex with me and
do stuff for me. I'm like, where do I sign
up for this? Like, I mean that's not how it
works for me.

Speaker 2 (39:03):
I don't know how many times my girlfriends and I
are like, oh, I wish I had a wife, Like
you know, we go on a girl's trip and everything's
so easy, Like somebody's making breakfast, somebody else is doing
the laundry, someone else is straightening up from last night,
and things are just getting done. And again that's not
to say they're about like I have a great partner
who really contributes to the house. But traditionally I know
what you mean.

Speaker 3 (39:22):
But I'm saying at the population level, That's why I'm
saying is that I think that push on like you're
one person in your fairy tale and it's it's it's
I mean, think of all the kids raised on Disney movies, right,
every Disney movie is another experiment and dysfunctional relationship, and
I think that it really sets up this like oh,
if you if you give up your legs, you can
have the guy, or give up your tail, you can

(39:44):
have the guy. I'm like, no, giving up stuff like
The Little Mermaid is the ultimate subjugation story, literally giving
up her own emphasize that she gives up her voice
and she gives up her tail and she gives up
her home. Ladies don't give us stuff off, please.

Speaker 2 (39:59):
I know it's weird. I was just talking to my
friend about this the other day, Like, somehow, even for
the smartest, most accomplished women, I know, sometimes it's like
and I don't think it's super conscious, but there's still
a deferring to the men. Like like a couple who's
talking about where they're going to live, Like we were
looking at our friend and going like, but why did

(40:20):
the guy win in that discussion? Like why did they
end up living where he wanted? And I don't know
if it's women like kind of being easy going and
sort of deferring and not problem causing and not demanding,
you know, but I still see that quite a lot,
I think, even in relationships that are a lot more
equal than ones that I saw like our mothers having.

Speaker 3 (40:41):
Yeah, I mean I think that there's also there's some
you know where I think when you start seeing in
the narcissism world hitting sort of the dysfunctional relationship world.
I also think that particularly women, but not just women,
but I think women a lot get that what I
call the easy breezy message, right, be easy breezy, Like
I'm cool, like I'm the cool girl. Let go along
with anything, like you know, the cool girl. The cool girl,

(41:03):
I'm convinced is something that the narcissistic people dropped into
the into the into the narcissism into the internet world,
so that people are like, I want to be the cool,
easy breezy girl. I'm a cool, easy breezy girl, has
no needs and has no voice and no, no, no,
no, no no. It's and I'm not saying be rigid demanding person.
No no no, I'm saying that have needs and wants

(41:25):
and voice them and and have it be a conversation. Rather,
I'm just going to go with the flow because I
don't want to lose this person. I don't want to
seem needy. That's often where and that in a he
with a healthy partner that could end up being the
healthy partner saying and even that can even be a
little bit taken advantage of there, but the healthy partner say, hey, no,

(41:45):
I want to hear what you want to do. Do you
want to move here or not? Because if you don't,
then we need to find a compromise, be cause I
don't want you to be unhappy in this place, right,
But I but with a narcissistic partner and you're easy, breezy,
forget it your toast, they will completely run rough shot
over that. And I think a lot of people are
sold that bill of goods at the easier like flexible

(42:06):
is great, but zacly like giving up on yourself is not.
And that's I'm not saying that's even that final line,
but I think people have trouble saying that, Like, I
want to be flexible, flexible super flexible means still having needs.
Flexible still means still making things known, preferences known, and understanding.
You may still not get the thing you want, but

(42:27):
you felt heard, so compromises can be made wherever you
end up, if that makes sense. And I think we
viewed as an either or that's the problem.

Speaker 2 (42:35):
And that's I think the older I get, the more
I realize, like those subtleties are hard to see, like
like you're mentioning the Disney thing. When you're little, you're
raised on stories of heroes and villains and good and evil,
and then the older you get you realize all the
gray area of people and the gray area of relationships
and conversations like yep, and yeah, I think there was
a lot of like how I wound up in that

(42:57):
relationship was a lot of like relationships take work, and
so you're working at it, but then you have to
see those subtleties of like but is this too much work?
Is this fair amount of work? Is the other person working?
And you have to sort through all that. So when
you're sitting and you're talking to someone who's maybe like
actively in a relationship with a narcissist, and you can
see it, but maybe they can't see it. What are

(43:20):
things that you say, Like, I'm thinking of people who
are worried about their girlfriend who's in a relationship, or
their guy friend or whatever. What do you say to
your friend to kind of make them wake up or
see or what are some things where you can help
people easily pinpoint hey, this is not good and it's
not going to get better.

Speaker 3 (43:35):
Well, first of all, one thing you don't want to do, ever,
is go up to them and say, hey, I think
your husband, wife's, spouse, partner, whatever, your boo whatever is
a narcissist. Don't do that. It's a big mistake because
it's a big word, and it's an overwhelming word, and
it's not going to move the needle. You're not going
to help your friend. More often than not, your friend's
going to push back and say what and they might

(43:56):
even defend the partner more, which now you're digging deeper
into that hole. The best thing you can do is
if you're watching something like this happen at a private moment,
just check in, like you doing okay, and they'm like, yeah,
why you know, I just saw that in the kitchen
and I'm gonna be honest with you like that was
hard to listen to it. Who's felt critical. I just
wanted to hear if you're doing okay now. I could

(44:18):
almost promise you the first time you do that, the
person you approach like the friend, they're gonna say, no, no,
it wasn't. But there's something else happening that you're not
aware of. You've put a light on something that they
kind of knew wasn't cool, and for the first time,
you're kind of on gaslighting them. And but they're not
going to say that to you right away. They're gonna
they're gonna they're say no, no, I was cool like that,
that's nothing, But inside the wheels are starting to churn,

(44:41):
and to reassure them saying okay, okay, I don't want
to overstep. I'm here, you know, I just you know,
you're amazing and I want you to be treated well.
And you take and then take ownership and say I
didn't love what I saw. That one interaction could be
enough for somebody to say I was right. Isn't cool?
But I didn't know? And then it might and then

(45:04):
you might and you gently approach again, gently approach again.
You might even do things like, hey, you know what,
there's this new something something you want to go spend
a few hours just you and me go and as friends,
and then check in and see how they're doing. You
might even see them loosen up and you know, and
then slowly have them comment on that it'll come around
quicker than you think. But what you can't do is
they're narcissistic. Now, obviously this doesn't apply in cases where

(45:27):
there's physical abuse or anything like that. I'm talking more
of like the sort of that that psychological poking and
slicing away. It's like the death by a thousand cuts
that's happening in front of you. You know, you have
to be careful even calling it the narcissistic out narcissistic
person out. Let's say you know the narcissistic person well,
and you can say like, hey, whoa, whoa, whoa, what
are you doing? You might have some power there, but

(45:48):
you have to be careful because that narcissistic person then
may go doubly hard at the person in a relationship
with them. But I think it's pointing out and saying
I saw something it wasn't cool. I hope you're okay.
I saw it, I didn't think it was okay. I
got you, and then let them run with them.

Speaker 2 (46:16):
I have one big question. I don't know if it's
easy to answer, but I feel like I've seen it.
I'm thinking of a friend who was in a bad
marriage that it took time, but she finally got out
of it. I'm thinking of a friend who was struggling
with acknowledging that their mom was narcissistic. Because here's what's
painful is feeling like we weren't loved. So are narcissists

(46:38):
capable of love?

Speaker 3 (46:41):
It's a tricky question. It's sort of because it's almost
a philosophical question as much as it's a psychological question.
What's love right? And what does it mean? Because I
can tell you right now, you, me and everyone listening
to this might have different definitions. For some people, love
is love is saying I love you. When people love
is having sex. For some people, love its physical affection.

(47:04):
For some you know, we talk about all the love languages.
So for someone else, love is taking out the trash
and never complaining about it. Right, But I think that
it's the lack of a shared definition. That's the old
Bell Hooks quote, right, you know, it's the problem with it.
Would all it would be helpful if we had a
shared definition of love kind of thing. I'm butchering the quote.
But we But it's that's the problems. We don't have

(47:24):
a shared definition. For a narcissistic person, love is very transactional,
and it's very oriented towards supply. It's sort of does
it giveing me a great example, narcissistic person, they go
to work that day and they have a great day
at work. They get the promotion like, let's celebrate whatever.
They You guys get ready each time to go out

(47:44):
to dinner, You go to dinner, you get to the restaurant,
and you know, completely by coincidence, the person, the host, whatever,
theater says, you know what, like we had a reservation,
not show up like this, the fabulous table overlooking the
water came free, like I'd love to give it to you.
Guys are a beautiful couple. Narcissistic persons like come on
in and then you're sitting down and then they're like, hey,

(48:05):
you know what, Like the manager is sending over two
glasses of wine. So the narcissistic person is being treated
like the most special person in the world. And they
turn to their partner like, baby, I love you so much.
They love the night, they love that day, right, they don't.

(48:26):
I'm not convinced that they love all these feelings. I'm special.
I got special table, I got special glass of wine,
I got the promotion. I love this day. But it
turns into I love you. And when you're in a
narcissistic relationship, you hold on one of those nights, and
then the next day they come to find out the
promotions not hold getting giving them the raise they want,

(48:46):
and then they hit some traffic on the way home,
and then there's a problem comes up, and you're still
thinking you're still in the glow of I love you
night with the wine and the table and they come
home and you're all affectionate, and they're all rumpy and mean,
like what what do you want? Like what dinner? What
are you talking about? Like I have to work late,
and and you feel like what the hell? Just how
do we go from I love you to this? Because

(49:09):
they loved the night, they're not loving this day. So
it feels like they don't love. You know, they don't
love what's happening. They don't. They're not They're not getting
enough supply. So they tell people that their definition of
love is supply how they feel. It's not really about
the other person. It's the love for them is does

(49:30):
this look good? Does it feel good to me? Versus
this sense of I'm in something with you? This is shared,
I got your back, And that's a very different definition,
and I think people will make. The big mistake people
make in narcissistic relationships is they have that argument you
said you love me, you don't love me. And I
always tell people, don't tell the narcissistic person they don't

(49:53):
love you. They think they do. You just have different definitions.

Speaker 2 (49:58):
Wow that I'm gonna taking that with me. So I'm
going to go push play and tell people listen, to
to my friend and out of the marriage. Listen to
this part, because yes, that makes so much sense. And
I never even thought about all of us not having
this shared definition of love because we all talk about
love as a society so much, so it kind of

(50:19):
feels like we do. But we really have to talk
through what love looks like to you, what healthy love
is to you, what healthy love is period.

Speaker 3 (50:27):
Wow.

Speaker 2 (50:28):
Okay, well, I know I have to get going with
you soon, but real quick. You talked about like, uh,
you know, this narcissism coming up as a definite, you know,
coming up more and more through our politics, through social media.
Like is it possible that narcissism I don't know if
it's always inherent or if it can grow. Can it

(50:50):
be growing and getting more prominent because of social media
because of the way our governments the world over are
going or no.

Speaker 3 (50:57):
You know, me and a colleague of person in the
field who does this work I could colleague friend, doctor
Keith Campbell at University of Georgia. He says that he
actually doesn't think that the number of grandiose narcissists is
on the rise. He's like, there's always been grandiose narcissist.
He's social media just gives them a megaphone. Him and
I agree that the number that there's a form of

(51:17):
narcissism that's on the rise, and that's vulnerable narcissism. These
are the more resentful, socially anxious, more socially isolated, rootingly angry, passive, aggressive, victimized,
sullen narcissists. Here's where social media has given them a

(51:38):
kind of a scary megaphone. Whereas these folks often didn't
always like they kind of be grumpy in their lives.
Maybe they'd be the grumpy drunk at the corner bar.

Speaker 2 (51:45):
Yeah, the cantankerous old guy on your street.

Speaker 3 (51:48):
This is no These are no longer cantankris old guys.
These are cantankeris young people. These are people who are
They're angry and they're brooding, and that seems to be
proliferating a bit more, I don't, I mean, and it's
sort of where at least that that voice wasn't there
as much before. I think that it's just what we're
I think the narcissistic people are always there. We're seeing

(52:09):
them because once upon a time, how were they going
to get all this attention, like I wouldn't have known
there was a random narcissist in Kansas. I don't live
in Kansas. So now that narcissist Kansas canna make a
lot of noise on the Internet and on social media.
And so I think these tools are uniquely suited to
the two narcissistic people. I really really think that they are.
But I think that it's a I think that what's

(52:32):
also happening is we're rewarding narcissism. But let learn, let
me put it to you this way. I I am
someone like you. Know again, you and I are both
in the public guye right, And I know damn well.
If I was more aggressive, if I was more assertive,
if I was more entitled, if I was more demanding,
my career would probably be bigger. And the idea of

(52:53):
doing that makes me sick. It really does make me
physiologically ill. Like people are like, no, do this, and
it's okay if you sort of that person under the bus,
I'm like, I gotta sleep. I can't do it. And
there's more than a couple of times in my career
where if I could have done something that I think
would have disadvantaged someone I care about. And I'm not
saying I'm just some kind of damn martyr. I'm not.
It's just I know what I can tolerate. And there

(53:15):
are times, you know, I mean, sure we all do
our things, but I'm like I couldn't, but I see
people who can't, like their career is on fire, and
so it is. I mean, there's certain you know, does
that make sense? I think that this idea that now
everyone's becoming narcissistic to be on social media, people's personalities
don't change like that a person might say, may a

(53:35):
person may do weird things like keep posting their breakfast,
but it actually just might be this sweet thing, Like
it's like posting a muffin. Like before we tell this
person they're narcissistic, like, talk to them. Maybe they just
like blueberry muffins. Yeah, so you see what I'm saying.
So I think we're so quick to think like everyone's narcissistic.
But I think that you're not going to turn a person.

(53:56):
Now here's where it's gonna get funky. Though. So it
is now twenty twenty four and what Facebook and all
that nonsense came out with two thousand and six seven
eight around there. I don't remember Facebook began, so we're
almost staying twenty years. So we're about to see the
first cohort of kids that were born into a social
media world and are about to hit adulthood. Folks, hold

(54:18):
on to your hats because this group of kids, we
just don't know. It's the first time we're ever going
to see from the day they were born, there were
lives that were shaped on how they would be shown
in media. Like I have kids, but they were born
when there was no social media, so there was in fact,
only blackberries were in fact, nope, there was no cell phones.
In fact, I had to get like I had to
get like a cell phone where it was like, you know,
five hundred dollars a month to like talk for a minute,

(54:40):
to just tell my husband at the time that I
was going into labor, like it was that. So we
didn't have any of that, And so I don't have
a children who didn't grow up at that. But this
is the first group. So I really think that the
jury's out on what this data is going to say.
But I think to somebody who's thirty years old, their
personality is not going to become narcissistic because social media.

Speaker 2 (55:01):
Interesting. Yeah, I mean, look, it's you know, I've listened
to a lot of like what bo Burnham has had
to say because he was kind of a kid on Vine,
and I think everything he says is so smart, Like
I remember, and this is not a direct quote, but
he said, like, you know, we're asking kids to define
to the world who they are before they know who
they are and when they should be developing who that
is in private, And yeah, I think you know. My

(55:25):
take on it is social media can be good for
a lot of things, but can also be very bad
in a lot of ways. And it's interesting you're talking
about the career thing, like I wanted to be a journalist, right,
and then social media happened, like right when I was graduating,
and it became this necessary thing, like in my contracts,
like you have to post about your thing. You have
to And I've always sort of hated it, honestly, Like

(55:49):
there are parts that I like connecting with people on,
but I don't like being like here's this interview I did,
but it was in my contracts. I had to do it.
And I've heard is that a good gauge like for
pe people who are listening I've heard what a good
gauge is is on are you a narcissist? Is like,
if you're asking are you a narcissist? If you're examining that,
then you're probably not. Is that accurate?

Speaker 3 (56:09):
It's actually a pretty good gauge, you know, because I
think I have to tell you, and it's a gauge
more than you think. Like a lot of people who've
been through narcissistic relationships, especially when they started like learning
more and sort of putting their back in the relationship
and saying, hey, I'm a real person in this relationship too,
and I have some needs and wants, and then they're
told by the narcissistic person like, oh, you're very narcissistic.
Look at you so demanding, and literally their demand is

(56:32):
like could we just have dinner together? Like could you
come home one night a week? And you're so demanding?
And so I think a lot of people have been
told that by narcissistic families, by narcissistic partners and have wondered, well,
maybe I am asking that and maybe I'm being too
asky and you know, needy or something like that. So

(56:52):
our demand eer gives. Really what it comes down to,
but I think that the if people are willing to
sort of inspect that, that's a good time. I do
think there are some narcissistic people out there who know
they're narcissistic. I've worked with folks like that clinically, that
doesn't necessarily mean they make the change or like they'll
even say like I'm in a whole like I know
that and I know that gets me into trouble, and

(57:14):
then I have to really ask. I'm like, do you
want to change that? And like, well, yeah, Mike, do
you realize what it means to change? And that's when
they're like, oh, not so sure.

Speaker 2 (57:22):
I don't actually want to do it right. Well, the
last question I'll ask, and then I'll let you go.
But just if people have been listening to this and
maybe it's opened their eyes a little bit too, that
maybe they are in what's not a good relationship with
a romantic partner, a friend, you know, even in a
work situation or a family situation. What are some tips

(57:42):
that you might give them on like how to first
broach potentially getting out of this or potentially you know,
trying to make it healthier. What's some of the first
things that you say to people if they think they
might be in a narcissistic relationship.

Speaker 3 (57:55):
I think first you've got to understand what it is,
and there's a lot of resource out there to read about,
to listen to and just learn what it is. The
second thing is, unfortunately, radical acceptance. Once it's pretty clear
that this is a pattern, it's not a one off,
you really have to ask yourself a hard question, say no,
this is always someone that's been great and then they
got laid off from their job and it's been tough,
but to say there was a very very empathic, consistent, warm, loving,

(58:19):
patient person. You've got to make sure that it's not
linked that changes to behavior that might be more selfish
or angry or something like that aren't linked to one thing,
and maybe have even come back after that, but you're
clear on what these patterns are. The next piece then
is the radical acceptance. Narcissism doesn't really change. It doesn't
so anything you're doing in this relationship is based on

(58:39):
this idea that it's not really going to change. So
it's never going to be a relationship that's deep, that's
got close intimacy, that where there's a lot of emotional attunement,
or availability, and there's a lot of grief that comes
around that, and you've got to hold on. You've got
to let that process unfold because it otherwise you might
go running back. I don't want to hear that. La
la la la. This isn't happening. And then it's about

(59:01):
you have to make decisions. Not everyone, Lauren, can leave
these relationships. Some people they have minor children, they don't
have the money or the supports, or there's duty, obligation, religion, culture.
There's many, many reasons people say. Sometimes people stay because
they've got hope. That's a tricky reason because it's never
going to get better. Or people stay because they're like,

(59:21):
even though this isn't great, I just want to be
part of a family. That's fine. And I always tell
people you need to make a choice for you. Nobody
can tell you what to do, but if you're going
to do it, it better be eyes wide open. And
that means if you stay, it means this person is
still going to be this way. So don't engage as much,
you know, disengage, build out your other supports, create other

(59:42):
meaningful activities in your life. It ain't happening here. If
you leave, be prepared for post separation abuse, smear campaigns
and other forms of like you don't get to walk
away sort of you know, sort of unscathed. So there's
difficulties all around, and some people decide to stay for
a while and say, now that I see this for
what it is. I tried for a year, it's not working,
and then they decide to go. But I think it's

(01:00:04):
in it. I think if you can, accessing therapy can
also make a big difference, because this can really be
experienced as a massive loss the dream you had of
a happy marriage, or your kid's all growing up with
two parents in a home, or you know, having a
close relationship with parents or something like that. When those
hopes go, it's very, very, very painful. And so how

(01:00:25):
having someone to help you walk through that all of
this can make a difference. And understanding that there's going
to be good days and bad and that every sometimes
you might get sucked back into these relationships and doesn't
mean you've failed. I mean, in many ways, that connected
part of you is still there and it's working, and
sometimes it's not always your best friend. But better that
you get to retain your empathy and compassion, then you

(01:00:47):
feel like you've lost it because of this relationship.

Speaker 2 (01:00:50):
So perfectly put Doctor Rominie, thank you so much. And
of course, your book, it's not you, Identifying and Healing
from Narcissistic People, a New York Times bestseller is out
there and available, and tell us about your new project
on fireside.

Speaker 3 (01:01:04):
Yeah. So we have a new thing called the Doctor
Romedey Network, which feels great deals, but it's really cool.
It's great because it's allowing us to do along me
to do something I've always wanted to do, which is
be interactive. And people who are members of this network
will have the opportunity to come on on if you
will virtual stage and ask me questions and we can
explore them. And the great part is the community is

(01:01:25):
weighing into so it's slowly, but surely you're going to become,
we hope, like the world's largest virtual support group for
people with who are going through toxic relationships. And I
have to say just I see the comments and the
comments are so supportive that I see how much again,
while I love my part in it, it's amazing to
watch how much people buy each other. So go to

(01:01:45):
the Doctor Romedy Network sign up and if you really
care about these issues. You're going to see. You're definitely
not alone, and it's really amazing to get to have
that back and forth and to hear different people's stories,
and there's guests and you get to ask the guest
questions too, so it's really cool. Because we had to
guess who's like an expert on relationships. You can ask
them a question too, So it's a chance to really
get instead of just watching and listening, you actually get

(01:02:06):
to get in there and ask some questions of your own.

Speaker 2 (01:02:09):
Well, just like you were talking about the importance of
a network and that social structure of support. Doctor Romney,
Thank you so much. I was so looking forward to this.
I know you're so busy. Thanks for fitting us in.
This was such an educational treat, and thank you for
all that you do and for reminding us it's not you.

Speaker 3 (01:02:25):
Thank you so much. By bye next night.

Speaker 1 (01:02:27):
Thanks for listening. Follow us on Instagram at the most
dramatic pod ever and make sure to write us a
review and leave us five stars. I'll talk to you
next time.